Saturday, September 27, 2008

Sarcasm: A new crime fighting tool?

How many times have you heard that the best thing to do when being robbed is to be passive and not do anything? "Just give them what they want," we are told. Sometimes, a different approach is called for (via Drudge):

Police said a bank teller in suburban New York had a simple question for a would-be robber: Are you serious?

Police said that was enough to spook the female suspect, who fled the Roslyn Savings Bank in Centereach late Thursday afternoon without a dime.

Police said she walked into the bank located inside a supermarket on Route 25 about 4:49 p.m. and handed the teller a note demanding cash and threatening to open fire with a gun if the teller didn't comply.

That's when the teller apparently expressed her crime-fighting skepticism. Police said the woman left without ever showing a gun.


Perhaps this worked because the would-be robber was female, maybe because she was surprised at the question as it didn't fit into her script of how a robbery should go, or perhaps the teller's display of a lack of fear made her flee. Whatever it was, when it comes to handling a crime situation, there is often no one size fits all solution.

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31 Comments:

Blogger Difster said...

I've noticed that it's always the "authorities" that are the ones telling us not to fight back. Typically employers also tell us not to fight back in the event of a robbery but that's just a liability issue for them, not really a philosophy.

In public school especially, the victim of bullying is often punished just as harshly as the bully when he decided to fight back because fighting is "wrong" no matter who does it.

Bullies and violent criminals (often the former precedes the latter) do not tend to be the most courageous bunch around to begin with. Active resistance tends to scare them off when they're acting alone. For this very reason, women should carry guns. Just showing the gun in most cases will scare off any attacker. But, a woman also has to be prepared to actually use it when necessary; it's not a prop.

1:50 PM, September 27, 2008  
Blogger Francis W. Porretto said...

Well, it worked in the service of crime, so why not put sarcasm to use in the pursuit of justice?

6:15 AM, September 28, 2008  
Blogger goesh said...

It is sad commentary that if a kid in school fights back, he/she is often punished. I am sure with witnesses, legal action could be brought against said schools. It's all about the notion that government is responsible for people and the insidious trend of people not being responsble for their own well being, i.e. self defense.

I too believe women should carry a gun, a snub-nosed .38 in the purse after being trained.

-'tis a far better thing to be judged by 12 than carried by 6

8:33 AM, September 28, 2008  
Blogger BobH said...

To difster:

The problem with self-defense is that there is sometimes collateral damage, meaning that people are injured even if they aren't part of the conflict at all. (Also, very often, aggressive-defensive conflicts degenerate into cycles of violence where both sides have suffered repeated injuries, ultimate causation is long forgotten and the goal isn't "justice' but instead social dominance.) To a considerable extent, society doesn't care who is right, who is wrong, who is the bully, who is the victim, who started it and/or who is injured. Society only cares that its non-combatant members aren't hurt and/or that the more violent and aggressive members aren't getting completely out of control.

What if the sarcastic teller had been incorrect in her assessment of the situation and the robber had actually started shooting? Do you think that we would all be laughing at a good story?

8:50 AM, September 28, 2008  
Blogger Helen said...

BobH,

Often, people do nothing and end up killed or hurt anyway. Somehow, the notion that someone did nothing sits well with those who do not believe in self defense. There is no one answer to all crime situations. My guess is that the teller had a gut feeling about the would-be robber that she acted on. Passivity does not always win.

I disagree that our society cares that its non-combatant members aren't hurt. Our court systems often protect criminals to the detriment of citizens. Criminals who are a threat are released to commit crimes again, often after little time in jail or they are simply never prosecuted in the first place. People have to look out for their own self-protection, for the most part.

9:26 AM, September 28, 2008  
Blogger br549 said...

One Saturday morning, when my kids were small, we were leaving the local library. I was last one out, finishing up checking out some books.

The kids were at the side door of the mini-van, waiting for me. A badly clothed man was scurrying towards them as I rounded the corner. He reached my kids before I did.

It ended up he was just homeless and looking for handouts. I did not know that at first. I ran like a bat out of hell toward him, and shoved him away from my kids. Yes, he hit the ground.

Had he been a loon, and as he got to my kids first, I shudder to think would could have happened.

There are decisions made every day, situation dependent. A thread a while back (the hammer on the train, if you will) left me stating I would have done nothing. I still stand by that, but not for reasons of being a scaredy - cat.

With my kids, it was much different. And there was no one around but me. I would have killed him with my bare hands if I even thought it was even remotely necessary.

I doubt you'd have reacted any differently, bobh.

10:06 AM, September 28, 2008  
Blogger JG said...

Actually br549 ...

If I read your story correctly, the man did not assault your kids in any way.

You assaulted the man.

You think he was badly clothed, you formed assumptions and all the rest, but in the end analysis you are the one who committed a crime.

10:12 AM, September 28, 2008  
Blogger Cham said...

People can't go around attacking panhandlers. They may be annoying but not worthy of bodily assault.

10:35 AM, September 28, 2008  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

bobh --

"The problem with self-defense is that there is sometimes collateral damage"

The problem with no defense is there's always damage.

"Society only cares that its non-combatant members aren't hurt and/or that the more violent and aggressive members aren't getting completely out of control."

Non-combatants are hurt by predators, more violent and aggressive (predatory) members are out of control because law-enforcement cannot be there when it occurs. Got a solution?

More importantly, got a solution that works for the non-combatants who are being victimized while they are being victimized and not just as a band aid afterward?

10:39 AM, September 28, 2008  
Blogger cinderkeys said...

Great story.

Where did that meme about not fighting back come from, anyway? Are there actual statistics to support the idea that you're more likely to get hurt or killed if you fight back?

1:42 PM, September 28, 2008  
Blogger Dogwood said...

Bonnie and Clyde would be appalled.

JG,

BR549 quickly assessed the situation and reasonably believed his children were in danger so he responded in the most appropriate way possible.

I would have done the same thing.

5:15 PM, September 28, 2008  
Blogger Words Twice said...

The problem with self-defense is that there is sometimes collateral damage, meaning that people are injured even if they aren't part of the conflict at all.

Can you provide an example?

(Also, very often, aggressive-defensive conflicts degenerate into cycles of violence where both sides have suffered repeated injuries…

Ah yes, the old “cycle of violence”. Everyone will turn into the Hatfields and the McCoys. You forgot to use the term “vigilante” and warn everyone that the streets will “run red with blood” and towns will turn into the “OK Corral” if citizens dare to defend themselves.

You appear to have difficulty distinguishing between self defense and gang warfare. Defending yourself from criminal attack is not the same as a battle between the Crips and the Bloods. Or are you just trying to conflate the two situations on purpose?

Society only cares that its non-combatant members aren't hurt...

Non-combatants?! Collateral damage? Where do you live, Afghanistan? Who is this “society” you speak of?

What if the sarcastic teller had been incorrect in her assessment of the situation and the robber had actually started shooting?

But she wasn’t wrong, and her quick assessment turned out to be more accurate than your armchair hand wringing. What if she had cooperated and got shot for her trouble? (e.g. the Lane Bryant murders et al.)

12:14 AM, September 29, 2008  
Blogger JG said...

Dogwood sez:

"BR549 quickly assessed the situation and reasonably believed his children were in danger so he responded in the most appropriate way possible."

----------

I'd bet that if you were assaulted out of the clear blue sky - not having done anything - that you would feel different about your attacker's "faulty assessment".

Every year there are stories to read about hotheads doing "false assessments". Here are two that I read about in the last few years:

A girl in school accused her teacher of sexual abuse / molestation or something similar. The parents and police were called in to get the full picture before the teacher was notified.
The father of the girl was understandably furious and went to the teacher's room. The teacher had not yet been told of the accusations and was clearly not expecting anything. The father waited until he looked away and then sucker-punched him as hard as he could and otherwise attacked the teacher, breaking his jaw, knocking out several teeth etc.

Now the story gets interesting: In the meanwhile, the police are getting the picture that the girl is starting to contradict herself about what happened. When these contradictions, and clear lies, are pointed out, the girl starts crying and says that the teacher was "mean" (he assigned her extra homework or something because she was a discipline problem), so she thought up this way of getting back at him. There was no sexual molestation at all.

Ooops. Hot-head father rightfully gets criminal charges and a massive tort suit.

----

In another case, a woman met a man in a different state on an Internet dating site. After they met and started dating, she tearfully explained to him that she was married, but her husband beat her up a lot. She kept describing the abuse and otherwise egged the new boyfriend on to "be a man" and help her.

So the boyfriend did - he waited for the guy and then shot him to death. After all of this came out in the trial, EVERYONE said that there was not only no abuse, the husband and wife weren't even living together or seeing each other, the wife just wanted him gone, probably for the insurance money.

Result, "real man" and wife were convicted of murder.

3:24 AM, September 29, 2008  
Blogger JG said...

Maybe the point I'm missing is that people who dress poorly are utterly worthless. Violence against them - warranted or not - just doesn't matter.

Any good fashion designer would tell you that.

4:25 AM, September 29, 2008  
Blogger 1charlie2 said...

And maybe if you look disreputable, and approach small children (INSTEAD OF THEIR PARENTS) it might result in a misunderstanding and perhaps seeing their dad coming at you (almost certainly yelling), you might think that BACKING AWAY would be a good idea.

I agree with BR on this one. Why do you think you don't approach bear cubs directly when momma bear is around ? We're not bears, but parents still defend their young.

And as for "assault," please look up "defense of justification" in your state's penal code. If the story BR549 reports is contextually and factually correct (and I have no reason to think otherwise), I'd say the odds are excellent that the most he would get would be a short probation, if a trial and conviction actually ensued (not likely). All it would take would be one parent of small children on the jury.

Folks, he did not SHOOT the perp, he interposed his body between his small children and the perceived threat, and pushed away that threat. I can see few juries convicting on that basis.

7:22 AM, September 29, 2008  
Blogger JG said...

OK lawyerly-sounding dude.

But one of these times the poorly dressed guy is going to have a taser or pepper spray.

I realize that doesn't fit into these comic-book type scenarios, though.

7:57 AM, September 29, 2008  
Blogger BobH said...

To Words Twice:

"'The problem with self-defense is that there is sometimes collateral damage, meaning that people are injured even if they aren't part of the conflict at all.'

Can you provide an example?"

You're kidding, right? In modern warfare conducted in places like Africa, 90% of the casualties are collateral. I would be surprise if over 50% of the casualties in gang warfare in the U.S. weren't likewise collateral.

If you want a more local example, the principal justification for the current American treatment of men when they have been victimized by paternity fraud is that releasing from their obligation and punishing the mother would also necessarily damage the "innocent" child. If you'd like to confirm this, I'd suggest that you check with the ABA committees on paternity and family matters.

"'(Also, very often, aggressive-defensive conflicts degenerate into cycles of violence where both sides have suffered repeated injuries…'

Ah yes, the old “cycle of violence”. Everyone will turn into the Hatfields and the McCoys. You forgot to use the term “vigilante” and warn everyone that the streets will “run red with blood” and towns will turn into the “OK Corral” if citizens dare to defend themselves."

Ever known anybody whose been through a divorce? A LOT of them fit this model. The difference is that these people hire lawyers instead of buying guns. I think guns are better, i.e., both faster and cheaper.

"You appear to have difficulty distinguishing between self defense and gang warfare. Defending yourself from criminal attack is not the same as a battle between the Crips and the Bloods. Or are you just trying to conflate the two situations on purpose?"

Actually, I have no difficulty distinguishing betwen these two. You, on the other hand, seem to have a very high opinion of your ability to read the situation correctly, including the intent of the other participants, and to implement your defense in a way which doesn't cause bystanders to suffer. I'm not that arrogant.

"'Society only cares that its non-combatant members aren't hurt...'

"Non-combatants?! Collateral damage? Where do you live, Afghanistan? Who is this “society” you speak of?"

I live in the United States, but I've studied the psychology of motivation a great deal, usually from the viewpoint of behavioral economics, where this sort of thinking, if not the vocabulary, is common. There are costs, there are benefits, there are risks and there is imperfect information about the situation and the intent of the others in that situation.

"'What if the sarcastic teller had been incorrect in her assessment of the situation and the robber had actually started shooting?'

But she wasn’t wrong, and her quick assessment turned out to be more accurate than your armchair hand wringing. What if she had cooperated and got shot for her trouble? (e.g. the Lane Bryant murders et al.)"

Ah, let's put you and your arrogance at real risk. How about the next time that some sarcastic teller tries this stunt and it goes horribly wrong, I get to torture you to death. What do you say? I can make it last a couple weeks!

7:58 AM, September 29, 2008  
Blogger Dogwood said...

JG,

The examples you provide are of vigilantism, not self-defense. The former means taking justice into your own hands, the latter means acting to protect yourself or others from actions a reasonable person believes represent an imminent threat of bodily harm.

In your examples, there were no imminent threats to either the child nor the woman who manipulated her lover.

BR549 perceived an imminent threat to his children and acted accordingly.

8:47 AM, September 29, 2008  
Blogger Words Twice said...

”You're kidding, right? In modern warfare conducted in places like Africa…”

Who cares about your made up statistics? Stay on topic.

”…the principal justification for the current American treatment of men when they have been victimized by paternity fraud …”

How does this pertain to self defense from criminal violence?

”Ever known anybody whose been through a divorce?”

Yes, quite a few, sadly. WHO CARES!? Stay on topic, please.

”Actually, I have no difficulty distinguishing betwen these two.”

Then you must be trying to deliberately conflate them. You want to talk about everything under the sun EXCEPT self defense. This leads me to believe that you are obfuscating. However, since I am not arrogant enough to believe I can never be wrong, perhaps you can explain how your tangents have anything to do with self defense. No, wait. On second thought, I’m not wrong. They have nothing at all to do with self defense.

If I seem to have a high opinion of my abilities, it’s because I have devoted an inordinate amount of time in training as well as having some real life experience in these matters. Of course, with a little effort, almost anyone can improve their abilities. Even you.

”I live in the United States, but I've studied the psychology of motivation a great deal, usually from the viewpoint of behavioral economics, where this sort of thinking, if not the vocabulary, is common.”

It sounds like they need to find more appropriate vocabulary instead of borrowing terms from the military and using them inappropriately. Using military terms speaks volumes about their mindset, but I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised since everyone is metaphorically “declaring war” on something or other these days and it’s just working out swimmingly.

”There are costs, there are benefits, there are risks and there is imperfect information about the situation and the intent of the others in that situation.”

Of course. That’s life. If you are waiting for the perfect situation to enact your perfect plan, you are going to be waiting a long, long time. Since you are fond of military terminology, here’s one for you: fog of war.

”How about the next time that some sarcastic teller tries this stunt and it goes horribly wrong, I get to torture you to death.”

Your comments are torture enough, thank you very much. Why don’t you try responding to what I wrote? Are you familiar with the Lane Bryant murders? The Brown’s Chicken massacre? Luby’s? Wichita?

”What do you say? I can make it last a couple weeks!”

I’m sure you have a lot of practice on small animals.

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