Wednesday, December 06, 2006

Are the Police and Courts Just a Substitute for Dads and/or Discipline?

A reader sent me an article today about a mother who turned her son in to the police for opening a Christmas gift early. I was surprised that the story was such a big deal that the Associated Press picked it up. To me, it seems mundane. Afterall, I have worked in places where parents drop the kids off at juvenile detention if they come in late from a date. Why do parents call the police and/or contact the authorities instead of using discipline? Because no one else will do the job of teaching the kids consequences. For example, in the case of the mother with the Christmas gift-grabbing boy, she states:

"My grandmother went out of her way to lay away a toy and paid on this thing for months," said the boy's mother, Brandi Ervin. "It was only to teach my son a lesson. He's been going through life doing things ... and getting away with it."

My question isn't, "why would a mother call the cops on her own son for such a petty "crime" but rather, "why is her son going through life getting away with things such as the time he took a swing at a police officer at school?" Maybe the woman in the story is a single mother with no one to help her with her son, maybe there is a father but he is afraid to discipline for fear of being hauled himself to court for child abuse, or maybe the community does not see fit to dole out consequences to kids who push the limits--except to expel them from school to get rid of the problem. Whatever the reason, expect the police and courts to continue being the disciplinarians for our kids, given that consequences for one's behavior is out of fashion.

Update: Joanne Jacobs on Parenting by Police at the Volokh Conspiracy.

64 Comments:

Anonymous Steve said...

It's a sign of the times. As morality has been pushed out of our culture in favor of "it's not my fault, my: 1.biology; 2. environment; 3. someone else’s fault” (take your pick) attitude. And, of course, fatherhood itself has been derided and degraded for years. Why should we surprised by the current state of affairs?

1:43 PM, December 06, 2006  
Blogger Bill Dalasio said...

Dr. Smith,

At risk of seeming harsh, isn't it possible that the mother might be a little at fault here? When I heard about it on the news this morning, I remember wondering why the police didn't lock the mother up for wasting their time. I mean the kid tried to punch a police officer, and they're still getting him a Game Boy? Even afterwards, rather than just taking all of the kid's presents to the Salvation Army (assuming he'd opened them), they bring in someone else to be the bad guy.

1:57 PM, December 06, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Bill Dalasio,

Yes, the mother may be at fault. As I said, there are no consequences anymore for much of behavior and it falls to someone else to do the dirty work. However, in my experience, often it is not just parents who are to blame. Our society has made parents afraid to discipline and filled people's heads with "kids first" and other slogans as well as fear of disciplining children. Remember, society has made parents and discipline the bad guy also. There is a lot of fear of using discipline of any kind (except time out which does not seem to work for many kids) because of the news and horror stories about parents who are arrested for slapping a kid, etc. Mom may not know where else to turn--but you are correct, that giving this kid an expensive Game Boy hardly seems like the answer.

2:14 PM, December 06, 2006  
Blogger Peregrine John said...

Fear of disciplining is pervasive and problematic. I am reminded of a Simpsons episode in which a pair of parents take their bratty boy to a counselor, saying, "We've tried nothing and we're out of ideas!"

Res ipsit loquitur.

2:22 PM, December 06, 2006  
Blogger Bill Dalasio said...

Fair enough, Dr. Smith

2:38 PM, December 06, 2006  
Blogger TMink said...

In answer to your question, I think this is indeed a consequence of no dads in the house. Well, at least that is partly responsible. The other part is the notion that children are born good and grow up better if parents would just leave them alone. I disabuse several parents of this happy but incorrect notion every week.

Trey

3:06 PM, December 06, 2006  
Blogger DRJ said...

It bothers me that parents feel society's institutions (like the police and the schools) exist to do their jobs for them rather than taking responsibility for their own kids. Parenting means more than taking credit for having cute, smart, or athletic kids. It is hard and sometimes thankless work.

I think our culture gives parents permission to avoid disciplining their children. It's certainly easier to indulge our kids rather than discipline them. That can be appealing to those of us with 2-career households and fast-paced lifestyles. But just because it's easier doesn't make it a good idea.

3:22 PM, December 06, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

DRJ,

It is not just permission to avoid disciplining kids, it is actual disapproval and fear of jail time. I remember when my child was three and tried to stick a balloon in her mouth at a store. I told her not to do it again and she did, I snatched it out of her hand, told her in a loud voice that she had not listened and took her out of the store. The moms standing around thought I was pretty awful. I could go on with anecdotes but the truth is, our society sends the message to adults: never be mean to a child. It results from our overindulgent therapy-centered society that believes that killing kids with kindness and love is the answer, it isn't in many cases. I agree that some parents need to discipline their kids and take the time to teach skills in behavior etc. However, our society does not make it easy. Add to that the sense of entitlement that kids have today with messages from the media about how important they are and you have a recipe for irresponsibility and bad behavior.

3:31 PM, December 06, 2006  
Anonymous cadmus said...

they should take away his gameboy.

badly behaved kids should not be rewarded. take it and give it to charity for some really deserving kid that will teach him..

3:40 PM, December 06, 2006  
Blogger BobH said...

In defense of the mother, what should she do if she TRIED to discipline the boy and the boy just ignored her?

I used to live across the street from a juvenille delinquent with a PINS (Person In Need of Supervision) order against him, and that was basically the problem that his mother faced. She simply didn't have the necessary leverage to make him do what she wanted without invoking the police and courts. The fact that she was rather nasty herself and the entire household (including a string of live-in boyfriends) was pretty high conflict didn't help either.

The ultimate leverage would be for her to break off the relationship and simply have nothing to do with him. In other words, she could have thrown him out of the house. That's probably what would have happened 120 years ago. However, this puts past parental investment in the child at risk and, besides, I doubt that society would allow it now.

3:58 PM, December 06, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bullshit - our "society" isn't afraid of "punishing" people.

Our "society" will turn into the SS at the drop of a hat if the right theatrics and frauds are involved.

4:14 PM, December 06, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

anonymous 4:14:

The state is not afraid of punishing people, if the crime is of a certain nature such as drugs or threats against bureaucrats, or for a hate crime etc. but people in general will not punish a kid--how many schools do you know that have any real discipline? In many communities, if kids do something wrong, no one does much, for fear the parents or others will get upset and sue them. Just try disciplining someone else's kid in a public setting and see where that gets you.

4:22 PM, December 06, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

In the snotty white trash school I went to some cowardly male teachers arranged for an older student to assault a student they dodn't like, for an opinion comment he made in a conversation that occurred off of school property about one of the teachers.

The cowardly, arrogant, immature teachers all kept their jobs. The worthless leeches are probably still nursing off the taxpayers' teet.

4:40 PM, December 06, 2006  
Blogger Joe said...

I think this is a hoax, or at the very least, a lame attempt by a mother and police office to teach the kid a lesson. (There was no crime and any police officer with two brain cells would have known that.)

5:27 PM, December 06, 2006  
Blogger Sailorcurt said...

I'd say it is encouraging that this ridiculousness is rare enough to:

a. Get reported

b. Be viewed by most people as ridiculous.

I would agree that single parent homes are problematical. Every child I've ever known that spent any significant portion of their formative years in a single parent home have had serious emotional issues.

But the vast majority of people still do a reasonable job of teaching their kids responsibility and how to conduct themselves acceptably in today's society.

Not perfectly and society itself sends many confusing, contradictory messages, but people are people and do the best they can. Every generation seems to think that the next one is doomed to failure and chaos. My parents generation thought that about me...and probably deservedly so. But I seem to have turned out all right.

I look at the kids these days, see the way they dress, their apparent lack of respect and disregard for authority, their rudeness and lack of discipline and I think...the same things that my parent's generation thought about me when I was a teenager.

I think it's a good thing that something like this is out of the ordinary enough to get some attention. We should worry when it happens, but no one notices.

5:37 PM, December 06, 2006  
Blogger DRJ said...

Dr. Helen,

I agree that society discourages and sometimes even punishes parents who discipline their children but it still comes down to personal choice. As a parent, do raise my children to have self-discipline or do I let them go wild? I think many parents know the difference but choose to be permissive because it's easier, especially when the kids are younger.

If we accept your suggestion, we are left with a society where parents have been trained to believe that indulging children is always good and discipline is always bad. Undoubtedly there are people who believe that, but I suspect there are fewer now than there were in the 1960's or 1970's. Deep down, I think many parents know (or soon learn) that children need rules, structure, guidance, discipline, etc., but too many choose the easy way out.

10:37 PM, December 06, 2006  
Blogger Dr. Melissa said...

The kid probably doesn't have a father around to lay down the law--not that his mom couldn't do it, but some kids need a more demonstrable physical presence.

I remember being at a public pool with my brood. I told my son not to run around the pool. He was warned. The second time, he was sent to our chairs and he sobbed while everyone else swam. Oh, you should have seen the death rays shot at me by other parents.

You know what? My kids don't run by the pool and they respect the rules, period.

But if you don't teach a kid consequences at two, 12 will be hell.

Watching the COPs show is just what you describe, Dr. Helen. The police are the father figure. It's crazy. Grown men and women act like children and the police act like tired parents.

11:00 PM, December 06, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Of course you can go too far with the authoritarian parenting style. I have seen kids raised like that become lying, thieving, deceptive, backstabbing weasels because they grew to sneak around their whole lives.

11:20 PM, December 06, 2006  
Blogger Almost Ali said...

There's a lot we don't know about this story, although "attention deficit hyperactivity disorder" seems to be the lynch-'im-up-pin. Makes one wonder who came up with this diagnosis. I mean, this stuff is very easy to catch in middle-teacher-class schools these days, maybe even easier than catching the common cold.

Meanwhile, I'd like to gently analyze the mother (please wait...analyzing...) and I've come up with this; being mom to a boy is not her (Brandi's) calling, primarily because her son will live up to her exceedingly negative expectations. Come to think of it, he's already halfway there.

When not summoning the police, imagine the messages, the subtle and overt judgments accompanying the 12-year-olds' every misstep. Next, imagine trying to please frustrated and/or self-loathing perfectionists.

When a medication doesn't work, there's a pretty good chance the evaluation was wrong to begin with. And failing that, "Brandi" declares, "There's no need for him to act this way" - which takes us directly back to the first cause.

Leaving her son - right or wrong - without one reliable advocate. Just confused bystanders.

Al Most

11:42 PM, December 06, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm the father of a 12 year old boy and a 6 year old boy. I don't have too much of a problem gently disciplining other people's kids (verbally, of course), even in public (even in front of their parents), though my wife wants to reel me in a bit.
I've got a 16 year old nephew "on strike." His mom (my sister) found out he thinks pot isn't awful and occasionally smokes it. She suspended all privileges except breathing. He now refuses to do simple chores or any schoolwork, and simply sits in the office when at school. It’s a classic power struggle. My money is on him.
He's a 16 year old. His brain isn't fully developed. He's stubborn. He's got lots of energy and even more time. With a "what are you gonna do?" attitude, his passive aggressiveness isn't aggressive enough to get the authorities involved. Not that my sister would necessarily mind the authorities (principal, cops, military recruiter) getting involved-- I think she would welcome it. I think that both of these-- the losing battle with a 16 year old and the desire to involve other authority, are the wrong track.
The problem with involving authority is that they don’t have the same regard for or goals for your child as you do. A principal has a school to run, a cop has order to maintain, and instilling character comes second to those. Why? Because instilling character can be messy and take awhile.
Playing jailer to a 16 year old for the next year or two, only to release him very p.o.’d onto the rest of society, really isn’t accomplishing anything worthwhile. I (not a forensic psychologist, mind you) would guess that 16 is too late for this sort of punitive discipline. Which brings me, FINALLY, to my point.
While I’ve not done an etymological study, it appears that discipline and disciple have the same root, the same idea. I think that what kids need at a certain age is friendship and modeling, or at least what they will perceive as such. Being heavy handed isn’t going to work. An adult who is interested in and invested in them has a lot of (figurative) weight to throw around, and mere approval or disapproval will serve two really great purposes- to gently guide and to allow room for mistakes (which, believe it or not, are natural and to be expected).

1:23 AM, December 07, 2006  
Anonymous Cornholio Mangus said...

My mother had me arrested when I was 14 for raising my voice to her. The police considered it assault. She left me in jail for three days until a hearing before a judge, at which point she dropped the charges. Further, my father sat back and watched it happen. This was just one of many similar incidents.

It amazes me that parents don't think their grown children will remember these kind of things. When they are old, broke, and Social Security is a memory, they can subsist on cat food for all I care.

What comes around goes around.

1:55 AM, December 07, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

cornholio-

What kind of joke of a police force has the time and resources to arrest and process someone for a common family argument? And if they applied the "raising voice is assault" standard to the situation you could have cross-filed charges on her. Amazing. Some people just love pissing taxpayer money down the drain.

5:16 AM, December 07, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

We must teach children responsibility and that there are consequences to their choices?

Well, hell yeah. But parents (and you) blaming society is modeling the exact opposite of that behavior.

If someone chooses to become a parent and then chooses to not discipline those children, then it's the parent's fault. You don't get to abdicate that responsibility just because some folks might give you dirty looks if you try to discipline your child. Surely your mama told you that, just because everybody else is jumping off bridges doesn't mean you should.

"Blaming society" for these things models the exact behavior that we complain about in today's youth.

7:56 AM, December 07, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Back to fathers for a minute. It's been my unscientific observation that one predominant difference between the care of a mother and the care of a father is that mothers are negotiable; fathers are not. Of course, that's not universal, in the rare case it's just the opposite. But the fundamental thing to remember is that both kinds of "love" are necessary in a child's life.

Those who dismiss their spouse thinking that "I can raise a child just fine" are fooling themselves and damaging their children in the choice.

9:00 AM, December 07, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Anonymous 7:56:

Of course parents should discipline their kids, I never said they shouldn't. Of course dirty looks don't matter, I ignore those. However, in my experience with parents and the courts, I have found that it doesn't always matter what parents/authority figures think. I had a father whose daughter had been staying out late and when she stayed out all night, he slapped her. Guess what, he was arrested. In other cases, I have seen kids who want to get back at mom or dad who told them no, they tell the school mom or dad is abusing them. Child Protective services is at the house threatening to take the kids. Our laws and "agencies" are undermining parental authority everyday, making it harder to parent kids. Try telling a public school how you want your kid parented. Good luck if you can do it. My point is not that parent's shouldn't discipline, they should, regardless. However, our society is not making it easier to do so, it is making parental authority a joke and the kids know it. I had a kid--three years old come in my office, pull out the phone and call 911 to tell them I was abusing him--why? I dared to ask him to take a few tests during our session. A three year old knows how to manipulate the system--do you think a crafty 15 year old does not?

9:20 AM, December 07, 2006  
Anonymous Jim said...

"My mother had me arrested when I was 14 for raising my voice to her. The police considered it assault. She left me in jail for three days until a hearing before a judge, at which point she dropped the charges. Further, my father sat back and watched it happen. This was just one of many similar incidents."

Cornholio, that was simple gender bigotry. What kind of Neanderthals are running the justice system in your area, that would see a 14 year old boy as the aggressor against a grown woman? - especially in the case of an obviously abusive mother - look at the effect she had on your father's behavior in the situation.

11:08 AM, December 07, 2006  
Anonymous Cornholio Mangus said...

The event I described earlier was in Clearfield, Utah (Davis County Sheriff responded to the call). As far as cross-filing charges, that didn't really occur to me as I was being handcuffed. At 14 years old, I don't have a firm grasp of the law.

11:50 AM, December 07, 2006  
Blogger SGT Ted said...

Depending on the size of the 14 YO, he might need a stint in jail. If I had raised my voice to my mom, my dad would have kicked my ass for talking to his woman like that. But that was a different era. Now kids have power over their parents, so being rude to them is normal and bears little consequence.

Did it ever occur to you cornholio that you were a shithead when you were 14 and maybe that was their last straw with you? That your father sat back and watched it happen leads me to beleive he agreed with your mom that you deserved some extraordinary punishment. I'm sure their intent was that you *would* remember it, so you wouldn't do it again.

5:22 PM, December 07, 2006  
Anonymous Jim said...

Sgt Ted,

Did it ever occur to you that the father sat back because he weas a pussy-whip and that the mother was out of control? Any father worth a shit would have beat the bitch down that tried to have his son dragged off to jail. (Metaphorically speaking only - dumped her out in the snow is actually what I mean; she was clearly not worth going to jail over on assault charges.)It's obvious where his loyalties were - not where they belonged. His son was his flesh and blood, something a wife can never ever be. He should have looked after his family first, and his wife next.

If the kid needed a heavier hand, that was for him to do, not a job to fob off on the police.

6:05 PM, December 07, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Jim,

I would hope that most husbands would consider their wives to be their family.

6:16 PM, December 07, 2006  
Anonymous Jim said...

I was exaggerating. In China, yes; in Arab countires, not really. It varies by culture of course, and until recently under Common Law wives were not really family members as far as inheritance of real property was concerned, which was why it would revert to another male in the husband's family upon his death rather than to the widow - since it was always family rahter tha his private property. I ahppen always to have lived in comunity property states, so naturally I think that ssytem is superior - a marruiage is seen as a corporation owning and property is seen as belonging t the individuals pooled in the marriage.

My personal; experience was that my family and I treated my ex-wife like a family member, but she didn't see herself as one - but that was just a personal thing of hers. it made lots of probelms, but again, that was just an individual glitch.

7:18 PM, December 07, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

We must teach children responsibility and that there are consequences to their choices?

Of course nowadays you have to teach adults responsibility for their actions and choices when those choices are criminal or tortious. Sometimes very old, very stupid and immature adults.

9:11 PM, December 07, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Back to fathers for a minute. It's been my unscientific observation that one predominant difference between the care of a mother and the care of a father is that mothers are negotiable; fathers are not. Of course, that's not universal, in the rare case it's just the opposite. But the fundamental thing to remember is that both kinds of "love" are necessary in a child's life.

It depends on the parenting style -whether its authoritarian or democratic. If the style is authoritarian one or both parents may be that way.

Although when I become a parent I've generally discounted the authoritarian style of parenting because I don't want to raise liars, weasels, thieves, swindlers, etc.

9:16 PM, December 07, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If I had raised my voice to my mom, my dad would have kicked my ass for talking to his woman like that.

And if I was an older brother in a family liked that I would tune up my father for using violence for a stupid, BS reason like that. If someone raises their voice to me or lies, etc. to me you can bet I'm going to raise my voice to them, regardless of who's daughter, "woman", etc. it is. These fake-chivalrous types kill me - from what I've seen, more than half the time they're abusing the women in their life.

Did it ever occur to you cornholio that you were a shithead when you were 14 and maybe that was their last straw with you? That your father sat back and watched it happen leads me to beleive he agreed with your mom that you deserved some extraordinary punishment. I'm sure their intent was that you *would* remember it, so you wouldn't do it again.

Did it ever occur to you that all people are shitheads, but if you punish them excessively, or for completely BS reasons, or commit crimes and torts in the process - that you're going to answer for it?

9:26 PM, December 07, 2006  
Anonymous Cornholio Mangus said...

Hey SGT Ted,

I appreciate your point on instilling discipline. Please bear in mind that I mentioned this incident in my life as it pertained to the issue at hand. There was a GREAT deal more over the years (which I won't go into here). I know when I behaved badly, especially in hindsight and with the benefit of adult judgement, and this was not one of those cases.

My point is that parents need to remember that they are responsible for their actions. They may not be accountable to the state, but they will ultimately be held accountable by their children when they are grown. Grown children know the difference in retrospect between discipline and cruel, vindictive behavior.

In my personal situation, my parents are receiving their just deserts for YEARS of abuse. Namely my absence and indifference.

And that's all that I have to say about that.

11:12 PM, December 07, 2006  
Blogger DRJ said...

Anonymous @ 9:16:

I don't agree that strict, authoritarian parents raise children who are liars, weasels, etc. A parent can be authoritarian and fair. In general, the key is to explain the rules and be consistent in enforcing the consequences. So I disagree that only democratic parents raise good kids. However, it may be that your definition of a democratic parent is similar to my definition of an authoritarian parent. If so, perhaps we agree on everything but the labels.

12:04 AM, December 08, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

drj-

It's all relative. Some discipline is necessary. But I think we've all seen very strict parents who've raised kids that are liars, weasels, thieves, etc. because the parents were so strict that in order to have a life they became liars, weasels, etc. Of course they would never admit that that's what their kids are - or if they do they would never admit that they're parenting style had anything to do with it - the kid was "bad".

"Fair" is important, but someone can still claim to be "fair" and be maniacally overcontrolling. Or use discipline "fairly" for nonsensical, ludicrous reasons. Etc, etc, etc....

1:27 AM, December 08, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There's nothing wrong with being strict an authoritarian as long as it doesn't turn into abuse. And what consititues abuse really is a gray area, isn't it. The thing is that if that's all there is, then there's no bond of trust or no mentoring, just punishment.

With my kids, I've been strict and authoritarian, but i've also been there for them to help when help is needed, and I've made a point to try to see when the out-of-bounds behavior resulted from something else that they might've needed help with. I probably missed the mark more than a few times, and I can tell you that all three of them got a swat on the tailfeathers out of anger a few times, mayebe more than necessary. but all three are still close by.

Whenever I think of this topic, I think back to the farm families that I knew and I try to relate what's going now in Industrialized society. Of course, we don't live so much in those times now, so I can't say I know first-hand. But back in those days, boys age twelve or so and older were int he barn or the pastures and the fields with their fathers and uncles. They were occupied and supervised, and they were close to adult mentors. Similarly with daughters, working in the home with their moms and aunts and neighbors: supervised and mentored.

Now we send our kids off to "school" where they are tacitly supervised and not mentored so much as preached-to. I think what i'm saying is that the suoervision and mentoring has diminished so much that the children of today are just not getting that kind of attention.

And they need it.

Rusty

9:20 AM, December 08, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Rusty-

I disagree somewhat. I think that in some cases authoritarianism can stop short of abuse but still turn the kid into a liar, weasel, etc.. I don't know, maybe if it does that it should automatically be considered abuse.

11:05 AM, December 08, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

As far as parental child rearing styles, you might want to check out the work of psychologist Diana Baumrind who looked at parental rearing styles to see what worked. She divided parental styles into authoritarian, permissive parents and authoritative and looked at social competence with peers and adults. For example, the children of permissive parents were found to lack a knowledge of appropriate behaviors for ordinary social situations and take too little responsibility for their own misbehavior--my guess is that many kids in today's society suffer from this type of parent as well as a permissive society that does not teach kids how to take responsibility. You can read more here about the other two types of parents:

http://www.nldontheweb.org/Moore-1.htm

1:00 PM, December 08, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Try telling a public school how you want your kid parented. Good luck if you can do it.

Why is it the public schools job to "parent" your Instakids? If parents did the parenting, schools could concentrate on ... teaching.

Enough with the psychobabble and all you folks making money off 3-year-old kids. "Testing" them at 3? give me a break, lady. You're scamming us way more than the kids.

The commenter above is right. When parents call the cops on their own kids, nothing good can come of it. Kids don't forget.

10:54 PM, December 08, 2006  
Blogger DRJ said...

Speaking of discipline and schools, does this seem as ridiculous to anyone else as it does to me?

11:53 PM, December 08, 2006  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

Which part, the woman asking for disipline or the suggestion that a 4yr old couldn't know he was doing something wrong rubbing his face against her breasts?

10:23 AM, December 09, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

dr. helen-

The Baumrind work sounds somewhat flawed. Traditionally parenting styles were divided into authoritarian, democratic, and laissez faire. Authoritarian was the complete fanatical obedience to everything the parent said, did, or expected. Democratic was discipline and rules that involved, in some cases, the discussion and input of the child when rules and procedures were being set. Laissez faire was basically let the kids do what they wanted - similar to the "permissive" style mentioned in Baumrind's work.

In my opinion it doesn't take a brain trust to see which of these styles is going to work best. The authoritarians are going to turn their kids into weasels, thieves, liars, etc. because the fanatical obsession with obedience is a recipe for the development of deception. The laissez faire or permissive types are going to raise kids that think they don't have to respect the rights of others. The democratic households will have a reasonable amount of discipline and the enforcement of this will be less of a constant source of conflict because the children will have bought into and basically agreed to a lot of the rules. Plus they won't develop into liars and weasels because to some degree there is a forum, communication, and some degree of flexibility in the system.

Now Baumrind seems to have focused on the worst of both worlds - and probably put the more reasonable of what would have been called the "democratic" styles under the old classification in the "authoritarian" camp. So its no surprise that she got the results that she did. But that doesn't change the notion that, in my opinion, authoritarian and laissez faire parenting styles are recipes for disaster. On one hand you get liars, thieves, and weasels that put on a good appearance, on the other you get people that are likely not to respect others' rights. That's why a sensibly executed democratic style gets my vote. And that's what I'm going to do when I get married and have children.

11:50 AM, December 09, 2006  
Blogger DRJ said...

O -

The part where they claim a 4-year-old could form an intent to commit sexual harassment or engage in sexual contact. If he acted out sexually, his home needs to be evaluated and he/they may need counseling. More likely, though, he was hugging his teacher and she overreacted. In that case, she needs counseling.

4:46 PM, December 09, 2006  
Blogger Cat said...

I don't know whether you are kidding or not about throwing your wife in the snow if there was a disagreement between your wife and your child. I think THAT is one of the big issues with parents today. No "united front."

I was spanked by my father for sticking my tongue out at my mother when I was about 8. I was rarely spanked (maybe 5 times between 5-10 years old), but I remember that vividly and will never forget how angry my father was for disrespecting my mother. If my father said, "that's your problem," the lesson would have been I could be disrespectful (he didn't care) and manipulate my parents too.

My sister was the "friend" to her kids and always interferred when my brother in law got involved or tried to lay down the law. By the time my sister's kid was throwing punches and spitting in her face, it was between "them." I remember my brother in law's father being horrified saying "if your sister laid a hand on your mother I would break her arm," but needless to say, he never had to do that with because unlike my sister and her husbdand, their parents - the grandparents - raised their children to respect them and other adults (teachers, etc).

9:06 PM, December 09, 2006  
Blogger Cat said...

P.S.

One of the reasons I was spanked so rarely was due to the respect I had for my parents and other authority figures. I was ashamed if I was misbehaving and they were disappointed in me. Often a stern look and a "I am so disappointed in you," was enough to send me to my room in tears. I had shame!

Example: I was at neighbors house playing with their kids and we all decided to use the sofa as a trampoline. When the mother came in and told us to stop, not only did we do so immediately and not have told told twice (because we respected her!), she turned to me and said, "Cat do you do that in your home?" No.... I felt so ashamed that I had disappointed her and was disrespectful to her valuables. I never forgot that either. Lots of little lessons that instill discipline and respect for parents and other adults.

9:16 PM, December 09, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Of course you don't want to instill fanatical respect and obedience for authority figures and parents, because some of them are criminals and abusers.

1:36 AM, December 10, 2006  
Blogger Rowena Hullfire said...

Agree w/cat--I valued my parents' esteem. My mother had that look of disappointment, like I was staining the family honor. I can barely remember ever being spanked. That LOOK did all the work.

Still, children in a democratic system having input? Riiiight. As if they were capable of abstract thought.

Farm families aren't a guarantee of well disciplined kids. I have a nightmare nephew in a farm family. He has always been horribly defiant of his parents. He cannot be depended on to do chores. He leaves gates open intentionally and the cows get out. He works hard on other people's farms and complains how his parents are abusing him. He has threatened to call CPS. I told my sister to encourage him to do so and describe what foster homes are like--some people are only in it for the check, treated like a slave, potential for sexual abuse, etc. I talked to the boy about being an emancipated minor and having to support himself...which all of a sudden didn't seem so attractive.

I've had very blunt conversations with my sister about them not being obligated to provide this hellboy a thing after he turns 18. Until then--clothing, food, shelter. 18--out. Then they can have their lives back.

So, this hellboy is a senior in high school now. What does he want to do? Run the family farm. I had a blunt discussion with him that he has been so nasty to his entire extended family for so many years, they really don't want him around. He'll have to start being nice to them and getting along with them if he ever wants their consent to work on the family farm. Until then, he better find a trade to be self supporting while he grows up and calms down a little. And save your money in case you have to buy your own farm, if they don't ever consent. That's his plan.

The other two kids are great. They have suffered having hellboy around and are counting down the days to their liberation.

One reason parents don't discipline and actually overindulge their children: they love them too much and they're too precious. With declining fertility, families are smaller and children are more precious. Larger families--if you end up with a bad kid, it's not such a tragedy because there's other kids to come through as decent people. The logistics of larger families force a more cooperative system and it's not only the parents who can whoop your behind. It's the older sibs too. Eveyone had important roles to do and enforced each other's getting it done.

At least that's what I have observed! Not referencing a scientific finding here.

11:55 AM, December 10, 2006  
Blogger Wacky Hermit said...

I'm disturbed by parents who can't design a system that works at home falling back on the justice system for discipline. I'm also disturbed by what I'm hearing on email lists for parents of children with Asperger's Syndrome, which is that the public schools are increasingly relying on police to take care of their "special" students. About once a week someone shares a story about how their child, who has trouble communicating appropriately, makes a remark that the teacher takes offense to, so the teacher backs them into a corner (figuratively or literally) and then gets surprised when the kid tries to leave the situation. The teacher won't let the student do even what's in his own IEP to calm him down, then when he pushes the teacher out of the way to leave the situation, they have him arrested for assault. Even the teachers aren't mature adults anymore-- why on Earth should a teacher of "normal" kids learn to handle a child with an autism spectrum disorder? Talk about abdication of responsibility!

3:59 PM, December 12, 2006  
Anonymous fletch said...

Dr. Helen-

Maybe the woman in the story is a single mother with no one to help her with her son, maybe there is a father but he is afraid to discipline for fear of being hauled himself to court for child abuse, or maybe the community does not see fit to dole out consequences to kids who push the limits...

I'll vote for the 'father thing'.

I'm 42 yrs. old- yet, I still remember-

Etiquette was enforced...
(emphasis on 'force'!)

1:37 PM, December 13, 2006  
Blogger KC said...

At the risk of sounding redundant, we live in a society that screams dont you dare discipline your kids ( I had a woman threaten to report me b/c I chided my child publicly for running out into a parking lot without looking when she was 3). I dared her to and even offered up my address! ( with the promise of paying her a visit myself!)

It is...Leave them kids alone, let the cops beat the crap outta them when they get
arrested .

This is what happenes in a nanny-state society!

7:39 PM, December 26, 2006  
Blogger serket said...

cornholio magnus said: "When they are old, broke, and Social Security is a memory, they can subsist on cat food for all I care."

I had a high school teacher say a similar thing about old, poor people eating cat food. Surely it is exaggeration, isn't tuna fish a similar price?

"The event I described earlier was in Clearfield, Utah (Davis County Sheriff responded to the call)."

We probably live close to each other.

2:54 PM, March 15, 2007  
Blogger look said...

情趣用品,
性感睡衣,
免費視訊聊天,
視訊交友網,
美姬圖影,
情境坊歡愉用品,
花美姬情趣用品,
成人圖片,
臺灣情色網,
嘟嘟情人色網,
色情網站,
情境坊歡愉用品,
徵信,
徵信公司,
徵信,
外遇,
徵信,
徵信,
抓姦,
徵信,
外遇,
徵信,
徵信社,
徵信社,
抓姦,
徵信社,
徵信社,
徵信社,
,
,
整型,
視訊聊天,
視訊交友,
AV女優,
色情,
A片,
A片,
情趣用品,
情色,
A片,
色情影片,
情趣用品,
A片,
AV女優,
視訊聊天室,
聊天,
情趣用品,
情惑用品性易購,
情侶歡愉用品,
A片,
情趣,
情惑用品性易購,
辣妹視訊,
自慰套,
情侶歡愉用品,
寄情築園小遊戲,
aio交友愛情館,
美女視訊,
色情A片,
情趣用品,
徵信社,
情趣用品,
A片,
美女視訊,
色情A片,
AV女優,
A片,
辣妹視訊,
自慰套,
情侶歡愉用品,

1:26 AM, March 15, 2009  
Blogger mmbox said...

本土成人貼圖站大台灣情色網台灣男人幫論壇A圖網嘟嘟成人電影網火辣春夢貼圖網情色貼圖俱樂部台灣成人電影絲襪美腿樂園18美女貼圖區柔情聊天網707網愛聊天室聯盟台北69色情貼圖區38女孩情色網台灣映像館波波成人情色網站美女成人貼圖區無碼貼圖力量色妹妹性愛貼圖區日本女優貼圖網日本美少女貼圖區亞洲風暴情色貼圖網哈啦聊天室美少女自拍貼圖辣妹成人情色網台北女孩情色網辣手貼圖情色網AV無碼女優影片男女情色寫真貼圖a片天使俱樂部萍水相逢遊戲區平水相逢遊戲區免費視訊交友90739免費視訊聊天辣妹視訊 - 影音聊天網080視訊聊天室日本美女肛交美女工廠貼圖區百分百貼圖區亞洲成人電影情色網台灣本土自拍貼圖網麻辣貼圖情色網好色客成人圖片貼圖區711成人AV貼圖區台灣美女貼圖區筱萱成人論壇咪咪情色貼圖區momokoko同學會視訊kk272視訊情色文學小站成人情色貼圖區嘟嘟成人網嘟嘟情人色網 - 貼圖區免費色情a片下載台灣情色論壇成人影片分享免費視訊聊天區微風 成人 論壇kiss文學區taiwankiss文學區

8:08 AM, March 22, 2009  
Blogger mmbox said...

2008真情寫真aa片免費看捷克論壇微風論壇大眾論壇plus論壇080視訊聊天室情色視訊交友90739美女交友-成人聊天室色情小說做愛成人圖片區豆豆色情聊天室080豆豆聊天室 小辣妹影音交友網台中情人聊天室桃園星願聊天室高雄網友聊天室新中台灣聊天室中部網友聊天室嘉義之光聊天室基隆海岸聊天室中壢網友聊天室南台灣聊天室南部聊坊聊天室台南不夜城聊天室南部網友聊天室屏東網友聊天室台南網友聊天室屏東聊坊聊天室雲林網友聊天室大學生BBS聊天室網路學院聊天室屏東夜語聊天室孤男寡女聊天室一網情深聊天室心靈饗宴聊天室流星花園聊天室食色男女色情聊天室真愛宣言交友聊天室情人皇朝聊天室上班族成人聊天室上班族f1影音視訊聊天室哈雷視訊聊天室080影音視訊聊天室38不夜城聊天室援交聊天室080080哈啦聊天室台北已婚聊天室已婚廣場聊天室 夢幻家族聊天室摸摸扣扣同學會聊天室520情色聊天室QQ成人交友聊天室免費視訊網愛聊天室愛情公寓免費聊天室拉子性愛聊天室柔情網友聊天室哈啦影音交友網哈啦影音視訊聊天室櫻井莉亞三點全露寫真集123上班族聊天室尋夢園上班族聊天室成人聊天室上班族080上班族聊天室6k聊天室粉紅豆豆聊天室080豆豆聊天網新豆豆聊天室080聊天室免費音樂試聽流行音樂試聽免費aa片試看免費a長片線上看色情貼影片免費a長片

8:08 AM, March 22, 2009  
Blogger nini said...

85cc免費影城 愛情公寓正妹牆川藏第一美女 成人影片 情色交友網 美女視訊 美女視訊 視訊情人高雄網 JP成人影城 383成人影城 aa片免費a片下載 a片線上看aa片免費看 ※a片線上試看※sex520免費影片※ aa片免費看 BT成人論壇 金瓶影片交流區 自拍美女聊天室 aa片免費a片下載 SEX520免費影片 免費a片 日本美女寫真集 sex520aa免費影片 sex520aa免費影片 BT成人網 Hotsee免費視訊交友 百分百貼影片區 SEX520免費影片 免費視訊聊天室 情人視訊高雄網 星光情色討論版 正妹牆 383成人影城 線上85cc免費影城 85cc免費影城 85cc免費影城 85cc免費影城 ※免費視訊聊天室※ ※免費視訊聊天室※ 免費視訊聊天室 85cc免費影片 85cc免費影片 080苗栗人聊天室 080苗栗人聊天室 080中部人聊天室 080中部人聊天室 免費a片下載 免費a片 AA片免費看 aa片免費看 aa片免費看 aa片免費看 aa片免費看 日本av女優影片 av女優 av女優無碼影城 av女優 av女優 百分百成人圖片 百分百成人圖片 視訊情人高雄網 電話交友 影音電話交友 絕色影城 絕色影城 夜未眠成人影城 夜未眠成人影城 色咪咪影片網 色咪咪影片網 色咪咪影片網 色咪咪影片網 色咪咪影片網 免費色咪咪貼影片 免費色咪咪貼影片 色情遊戲 色情遊戲 色情遊戲 色情遊戲 影音視訊交友網 視訊交友網 080視訊聊天室 ※免費視訊聊天室※ ※免費視訊聊天室※ 視訊聊天室 成人影音視訊聊天室 ut影音視訊聊天室 ※免費視訊聊天室※ 視訊ukiss聊天室視訊ukiss聊天室 視訊交友90739 視訊交友90739 情人視訊網 168視訊美女 168視訊美女 168視訊美女 視訊美女館 視訊美女館 免費視訊美女網 小高聊天室 小高聊天室 aio交友聊天室 aio交友聊天室 交友聊天室 交友聊天室 線上a片 線上a片 線上a片 線上a片 線上a片 免費線上a片 免費線上a片 嘟嘟成人網站 成人漫畫 情色文學 嘟嘟成人網 成人貼圖區 情色文學成人小說 微風成人區 情色貼圖區 免費視訊聊天 免費成人圖片區 愛情公寓 愛情公寓聊天室 寄情築園小遊戲 免費aa片線上看 aa片免費看 情色SXE聊天室 SEX情色遊戲 色情A片 免費下載 av女優 俱樂部 情色論壇 辣妹視訊 情色貼圖網 免費色情 聊天室 情人視訊聊天室 免費a片成人影城 免費a片-aa片免費看 0204貼圖區 SEX情色 交友聊天-線上免費 女優天堂 成人交友網 成人情色貼圖區 18禁 -女優王國 080視訊美女聊天室 080視訊聊天室 視訊交友90739 免費a片 aio 視訊交友網 成人影城-免費a片※免費視訊聊天※85cc免費影片日本線上免費a片 免費色咪咪影片免費色咪咪影片aaa片免費看影片aaa片免費看成人影城免費色咪咪影片

2:40 PM, April 05, 2009  
Blogger 123456 said...

广州托盘复合托盘食品托盘天津木托盘胶合板托盘蜂窝纸托盘塑木托盘熏蒸木托盘木制托盘广东塑料托盘钢托盘钢制托盘栈板塑料栈板木栈板垫仓板托盘包装求购托盘天津托盘温州托盘山东托盘北京托盘上海木托盘塑胶托盘卡板纸卡板塑料卡板手推车推车机场手推车好孩子手推车液压手推车超市手推车医用手推车康贝手推车不锈钢手推车平板车电动平板车老虎车静音手推车平板手推车小推车模具架置物架堆垛架巧固架整理架物料整理架挂板架整理柜零件柜零件整理柜文件整理柜仓储笼仓库笼料箱塑料箱钢制料箱货箱整理箱塑料整理箱周转箱塑料周转箱防静电周转箱求购周转箱物流箱物料盒零件盒塑料零件盒卡板箱周转筐塑料周转筐周转箩登高车物流台车台车密集架档案密集架文件柜办公文件柜北京文件柜广州文件柜上海文件柜南京文件柜深圳文件柜钢制文件柜铁皮文件柜档案柜文件柜厂底图柜档案柜鞋柜储物柜更衣柜防火防磁柜防磁柜防火防磁文件柜图书架资料柜工具柜

5:00 AM, April 13, 2009  
Blogger 天天看正妹 said...

免費視訊聊天 ut聊天室辣妹視訊UT影音視訊聊天室 吉澤明步QQ美女視訊秀 85cc免費影片aa影片下載城sex免費成人影片aaa片免費看短片美女視訊 sex383線上娛樂場av969 免費短片日本免費視訊aa影片下載城視訊網愛聊天室影音視訊交友 咆哮小老鼠分享論壇sex520免費影片aa免費影片下載城aio辣妺視訊 aio辣妹交友愛情館 jp成人影片aio交友愛情館馬子免費影片免費線上a片18成人85cc影城0204movie免費色咪咪視訊網pc交友s383視訊玩美女人34c高雄視訊聊天jp成人免費視訊辣妹 kk777視訊俱樂部xxxpandalive173影音視訊聊天室 sex520-卡通影片成人免費視訊 完美女人13060 免費視訊聊天sexy girl video movie辣妹妹影音視訊聊天室UT視訊美女交友視訊情色網百事無碼a片dvd線上aa片免費看18禁成人網ut聊天室kk俱樂部視訊激情網愛聊天 情人小魔女自拍卡通aa片免費看夜未眠成人影城aio性愛dvd辣妹影片直播拓網視訊交友視訊聊天室ggoo168論壇視訊辣妹love104影音live秀 美女show-live視訊情色yam交友辣妹妹影音視訊聊天室s383情色大網咖視訊aaa俱樂部台灣情色網無碼avdvdsexy diamond sex888入口Show-live視訊聊天室

12:59 AM, April 14, 2009  
Blogger 天天看正妹 said...

免費 a 片aaaaa片俱樂部影片aaaaa片俱樂部dodo豆豆聊天室sex520網路自拍美女聊天室天堂免費線上avdvd援交av080影片aa影片下載城aaa片免費看短片成人圖片區18成人avooogo2av免費影片sexdiy影城免費線上成人影片bonbonsex0951影片下載日本av女優sex888免費看影片免費視訊78論壇辣妹有約辣妹no31314視訊dudu sex免費影片avdvd情色影片免費色咪咪影片網av080免費試看日本美女寫真集辣妹脫衣麻將視訊聊天室性福免費影片分享日本美女寫真集,kk視訊aio交友愛情館免費成人美女視訊bt論壇色情自拍免費a片卡通tw 18 net卡通18美少女圖色情漫畫777美女小護士免費 aa 片試看百分百成人情色圖片a片免費觀賞sexy girls get fuckedsexy girl video movie情色文學成人小說sex888免費看eyny 伊莉論壇sexdiy影城自拍情色0204movie免費影片aio免費aa片試看s383情色大網咖sexy girl video movie草莓牛奶AV論壇台灣論壇18禁遊戲區環球辣妹聊天室 90691拓網aio交友愛情館拓網學生族視訊777美女 sex888影片分享區hi5 tv免費影片aa的滿18歲卡通影片sex383線上娛樂場sexdiy影城免費a片線上觀看真人美女辣妹鋼管脫衣秀比基尼辣妹一夜情視訊aio交友愛情館

12:59 AM, April 14, 2009  
Blogger 天天看正妹 said...

小魔女免費影城免費看 aa的滿18歲影片sex383線上娛樂場kk777視訊俱樂部aa的滿18歲影片85cc免費影片a片免費看A片-sex520視訊聊天室v6 0plus論壇sex520免費影片avdvd-情色網qq美美色網ut13077視訊聊天A片-無碼援交東京熱一本道aaa免費看影片免費視訊聊天室微風成人免費視訊聊天 ut聊天室av1688影音視訊天堂免費 a 片85cc免費影城亞洲禁果影城微風成人av論壇sex520免費影片JP成人網免費成人視訊aaa影片下載城免費a片 ut交友成人視訊85cc成人影城免費A片aa的滿18歲影片小魔女免費影片85cc免費影片aaa片免費看短片aa影片下載城aaaaa片俱樂部影片aaaaa片俱樂部aa的滿18歲影片小魔女免費影片台灣論壇免費影片後宮0204movie免費影片免費卡通影片線上觀看線上免費a片觀看85cc免費影片免費A片aa影片下載城ut聊天室辣妹視訊UT影音視訊聊天室 日本免費視訊aaaa 片俱樂部aaaa片免費看影片免費視訊78論壇情色偷拍免費A片免費aaaaa片俱樂部影片aa影片下載城色漫畫帝國av俱樂部aaaa彩虹頻道免費影片 杜蕾斯成人免費卡通影片線上觀看85cc免費影片線上觀賞免費線上歐美A片觀看免費a片卡通aaa的滿18歲卡通影片sex520免費影片免費 a 片

12:59 AM, April 14, 2009  
Blogger 徵信 said...

外遇外遇外遇外遇外遇外遇外遇外遇外遇 外遇
外遇 外遇外遇 外遇 外遇
外遇 外遇 外遇
外遇


外遇 外遇
外遇
外遇 外遇外遇
外遇

外遇 外遇外遇 外遇 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 ,
外遇 外遇 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇外遇 外遇外遇 外遇 外遇

外遇 外遇

外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇劈腿劈腿劈腿劈腿劈腿劈腿劈腿劈腿喜帖囍帖卡片外遇外遇 外遇 外遇外遇 外遇
外遇 外遇 外遇 外遇剖析 外遇調查 外遇案例 外遇諮詢 偷情 第三者外遇話題 外遇發洩 感情挽回 徵信社 外遇心態 外遇 通姦 通姦罪 外遇徵信社徵信社外遇 外遇 抓姦徵信協會徵信公司 包二奶 徵信社 徵信 徵信社 徵信社 徵信社 徵信社 徵信 徵信 婚姻 婚前徵信 前科 個人資料 外遇 第三者 徵信社 偵探社 抓姦 偵探社 偵探社婚 偵探社 偵探社偵探家事服務家事服務家電維修家事服務家事服務家事服務家事服務家事服務持久持久持久持久持久持久持久離婚網頁設計徵信社徵信社徵信徵信社外遇離婚協議書劈腿持久持久持久持久持久劈腿剖析徵信徵信社外遇外遇外遇外遇徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信徵信社徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信公會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信公會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿

6:06 AM, April 20, 2009  
Blogger 1314 said...

視訊做愛視訊美女無碼A片情色影劇kyo成人動漫tt1069同志交友網ut同志交友網微風成人論壇6k聊天室日本 avdvd 介紹免費觀賞UT視訊美女交友..........................

10:39 PM, May 19, 2009  
Blogger 1122 said...

85cc免費影城視訊交友90739視訊交友哈啦聊天室哈啦聊天室6k聊天室6k聊天室小莉影像館小莉影像館尋夢園聊天尋夢園聊天視訊女郎視訊女郎視訊美女彩虹視訊交友網彩虹視訊交友網情色視訊交友情色視訊交友546視訊聊天室85x1x成人影院85x1x成人影院

12:02 AM, June 08, 2009  

Post a Comment

<< Home