Wednesday, August 23, 2006

Bag Lady Syndrome

I was at the car dealer today waiting for my car to be fixed and got stuck watching the news on CNBC. The topic was a new study on women, power, and money that discussed how 46% of the women in this study fear they will become a bag lady. I googled the study and found this Washington Times article that looked at the study more in depth:

A "startling" 90 percent of women say they feel financially insecure, according to a survey of almost 1,925 women released yesterday by Allianz, a Minnesota-based life insurance company.

Almost half are troubled by a "tremendous fear of becoming a bag lady" -- 46 percent of women overall, and 48 percent of those with an annual income of more than $100,000. An additional 57 percent are sorry they had not learned more about money matters in school.

Such concerns foster an array of behaviors and thoughts. Women, for example, are twice as likely as men -- 18 percent to 9 percent -- to set aside a secret stash of money, the study found. Roughly the same number counseled their daughters to do the same.


The amazing thing is that by 2010 (less than four years away), the article says women will control 60% of the wealth in this county. With all this wealth, what the heck is with this bag lady syndrome? Perhaps because women do not know how to deal with money, they feel more nervous about it than men. I never felt nervous about money because I had a number of wonderful teachers who taught me the value of a dollar. Mr. Claxton, my sixth grade health teacher, taught me how to budget, Mr. Baum in eighth grade taught me about the stock market and compound interest and my father taught me how to read the Wall Street Journal and play the stock market in college.

I can't remember ever feeling like I was going to be a bag lady--and what is with the secret stash of money these women are hiding and telling their daughters to hide? What is that about? Why hide money and who are they hiding it from--their husband? This has always struck me as odd. Is money so anxiety provoking that women have to hide it?

Update: Along related lines, here is an article in Forbes entitled, "Don't Marry a Career Woman." Frankly, the article seems rather sexist to me--using as their criteria for "career girls" those women who make more than $30,000 a year, have a university degree or higher, and work outside the home over 35 hours. The article says such women are more likely to cheat, be unhappy, not have kids or if they do, be unhappy with that, and to get divorced more readily and to keep a dirty house. Wow, I never knew we "career girls" were such losers. Read the article and decide for yourself.

72 Comments:

Blogger Cham said...

Considering that most people are woefully underprepared financially for retirement these days with the dismantling of pension plans, and women are more conservative than men when it comes to money, I can see why women are more greatly concerned about their financial future after retirement.

Am I concerned about becoming a bag lady? You bet. I'm very worried that the Social Security system is going to collapse under its own weight and the weight of our tenuous national debt before I pass 70. Women are much better budgeters than men, as they often have to make sure the dollars stretch to pay rent and put food on the table for their kids.

Sure women are concerned, but many of them have much less of a chance of having to live under a bridge when they retire than men because women seem to care about it now rather than later.

4:18 PM, August 23, 2006  
Anonymous Econ_Scott said...

These women who fear becoming bag ladies ?
SHOULD

Fear can be a good motivator for CHANGE.

Up to now these women have been unable to say "NO" to their kids, (nor able to say "NO" to their own spending). What makes them think it will be different when the Husband kicks the bucket and the hope of income and support in old age is gone, budget constraints gone, kids want to be "unburdened by the old lady".

"People are just SOOooooo Busy Busy Buys that they don't have enough TIME to attend to the most important aspects of their financial lives."

Like an actual plan to life expectancy, which is inadequate since that is the statistical MEAN and half will live another 10-20 years beyond that.

Everyone has a plan by Design, .... or Default.

What's yours ?

Check any wealthy suburb HS lot when school let's out or on the Friday/Saturday night kid cocktail circuit.

Where did all those fancy Cars Clothes Booz and Drugs come from ?

Chances are, it wasn't a conscious decision by the old man to buy that stuff.

Those kids have an overdeveloped sense of entitlement and a well developed system for working over MOM to get what they want.

When these women hit 2010 and are in control of 60% of the nation's wealth, How long do you think they'll hang on to it ?

Like it or not it takes till you're at least 50 in this country to establish a home and launch kids. Even those it goes against all the best advice, the majority of retirement savings is still done between 50 and 70.

Be afraid ladies, be VERY afraid.

4:29 PM, August 23, 2006  
Anonymous Econ_Scott said...

Dr. Helen:

you Wrote "I can't remember ever feeling like I was going to be a bag lady--and what is with the secret stash of money these women are hiding and telling their daughters to hide?"

How long have you been working at a University and how long have you been married to InstaLawyer with the Pension Plan, 403(b) Plan, Supplemental 457 Plan, Income from side projects and problems with TAXES not income ? (Community Property, you own half you know -- another reason he's acts so polite eh ?)

It's the "Middle" middle class, not the top 3% with Household incomes over 95,000 that have these fears.

That's alot of folks.

You and InstaLawyer will probably be O.K.

High Cost of living states (THink Coastal) will be sending you ALOT of women working at Ace Hardware and McDonalds with funny accents by Tennessee Standards. But Judging by Insta-lawyer's midwesterly lilt on the podcasts --- you are used to people who talk funny by now, it's probably hardly annoying anymore.

So strip off the University of Tennessee Pensions, manage oooo say $150,000 IRA yourselves then try to project how you're going to SAVE & pay for the expensive college education for Insta-child, and probably part of Grad School too, by the way, get busy and have another one, hold up your end of the population replacement ratio's why don't you.

And you'll know how these women FEEL. They could make it, with a lower standard of living NOW, but they feel entitled to be JUST LIKE YOU.

Think those University Pension and Retirement systems come CHEAP ? Huh ?

Inflation runnning under 3%, College Tuition R&B & Fees & books, running 6-8% for the last 40 years. Hmmmmmmm, maybe I'll go back to teaching University and leave the business world.

It will cost you $200,000 if Instachild wants to go to an Out of state School like say UCLA, NOW.

Double that by the time she get's there.

Without that University Pension System, You'd know some fear.

Econ_Scott's lovely and talented Wife has a brother who is tenured Faculty at Harvard ... they have a really nice system too, whine about it, and can't understand why people worry or find it difficult to save.

Dang it's tough all over.

Biggest Pension Fund in the U.S. ?

UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA PENSION SYSTEM - CAL PERS

4:51 PM, August 23, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Econ_Scott:

The article states that the women who make the most money --those with salaries over 100,000 are the most frightened so your theory about the middle class being the fearful ones does not seem to apply.

5:01 PM, August 23, 2006  
Anonymous Econ_Scott said...

Dr. Helen:

Wow that was fast, musta hit a noive.

It's not the High Cost of Living these $100k Sal women fear,

It's the High Cost of Living High.

There's plenty of Fear down in the Middle Middle Classes too.

And it's the $100,000 plus a year babes who are fueling the Ilicit Drug Business in the Suburbs --- They give those kids ALOT of spending money.

Middle Middle class, Social Security MAY replace 35% of Income needs, then What ?

SS is only about MMmmmm 12-15% of your Household income in retirement.

5:09 PM, August 23, 2006  
Anonymous Econ_Scott said...

Dr. Helen:

Well ? Which is it, $100k Sal women OR,

You wrote "Frankly, the article seems rather sexist to me--using as their criteria for "career girls" those women who make more than $30,000 a year, have a university degree or higher, and work outside the home over 35 hours. The article says such women are more likely to cheat, be unhappy, not have kids or if they do, be unhappy with that, and to get divorced more readily and to keep a dirty house. Wow, I never knew we "career girls" were such losers. Read the article and decide for yourself."

Either way you want it,

My wife will take the $2.5 mil if I die today, and make a poor choice for a second husband, some guy who is loving responsible good looking , fun adventurous and loves to travel, and Broke. And she'll likely ignore the detailed financial plan I left her including the "Tennis Pro Trust" to protect her from said good looking fun broke next husband.

It's O.K. with me, I'll be dead. As long as the kids approve of him and treat her with respect.

She's a swell wife, and one of the smartest people you'll ever meet, but the house is dirty when the Mexican cleaning ladies don't come by every week.

5:22 PM, August 23, 2006  
Anonymous JKB said...

Well, perhaps these women fear not being able to sustain the rich and famous life. Here is an article from the Daily mail about young women who are now paying the price for trying to live like a Footballer's wife rather than a normal life.

Perhaps the secret stash of money must be hidden from themselves?

6:51 PM, August 23, 2006  
Anonymous Aric said...

Helen,

What's wrong with that definition of "career woman"? If you asked me to come up with a definition for "career woman" off the top of my head, that's probably pretty close to what I'd have come up with. How would you define it?

8:15 PM, August 23, 2006  
Anonymous klh said...

For many years, my mother was convinced my father was going to replace her with someone younger/thinner/smarter (I honestly think those were her insecurities rather than his having a wandering eye).

She has never completely trusted my husband to stick around, and has encouraged me on more than one occasion to ensure I had money set aside "just in case", because she has "seen so many women lose out" when divorce occurred.

She has never been responsible for "managing" the money in her house, that was Dad's job and I think it did make her fearful of losing out.

I never played the market in college or otherwise, but I know how to budget, I know what comes in and I know what goes out.

I am a happily married woman (14 yrs, we've been together for 18), college educated, I have great job, 2 kids and it is tough to hear her say that I couldn't be trusted to budget my salary to support 2 kids on the very off chance that I'm not as happily married as I think I am.

I also think that if I start lying to my husband and squirrelling money away it is a first step towards becoming a lot less happily married.

8:21 PM, August 23, 2006  
Blogger TestSubjectXP said...

women are more conservative than men when it comes to money = LOL!

Women are much better budgeters than men = lol

women seem to care about it now rather than later. = lol!

...just.. lol...

hahaha

Whatever, person, whatever... you keep telling yourself all that now.

9:30 PM, August 23, 2006  
Blogger dadvocate said...

46 percent of women overall, and 48 percent of those with an annual income of more than $100,000. An additional 57 percent are sorry they had not learned more about money matters in school

Interesting that more women making over $100,000 per year are worried that women overall. Is there an element of greed there? Is a bag lady someone driving a 5 year old Chevy making 35k a year?

The reporter's sloppy use of language and numbers also caught my eye. Immediately after mentioning 46 percent and 48 percent the next sentence starts "An additional 57 percent..." Additional to what? Certainly not to 46 or 48. Continually finding little things like this make me wonder how much writers/reporters understand their subject. Many seem to be horrible at math.

9:31 PM, August 23, 2006  
Blogger Cham said...

I think Forbes is absolutely right. If a man wants a marriage to last he should pick himself a nicely uneducated woman who's best career opportunity involves the phrase "Would you like fries with your order?". Have a whole bunch of kids with the wife and she will be completely financially dependent on your income. Yes, no doubt about it, a man will have less of a chance of your uneducated homebody asking for a divorce than a career-minded college-educated wife who can easily fend for herself in the big bad world if the husband misbehaves.

Makes perfect sense to me and so does the counterpoint Don't marry a lazy man!

9:38 PM, August 23, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I disagree with the reasoning behind the "Don't Marry Career Women" article. Personally, I don't think men want uneducated women so they won't leave them, and I certainly don't think having or not having a career is itself a marriage problem (although failure to recognize the intrinsic needs of the marriage, and to manage the household around two careers, is difficult to do well.)

I think men want women (in reference to the counterpoint article) who don't imply that the apex of male mental function can be compared to that of a puppy (in response to an article characterizing desirable women as well-educated, ambitious, informed, and engaged), or women who don't find it appropriate to make a comment about demonstrating and continuing to pursue the values that were originally the basis of the marriage in a vague and patronizing manner.

In other words, women who don't think males are lesser beings with poor mental function that need to be managed (to refer back to one of Helen's old articles) in order to be tolerable. A more useful study would be an examination of the level of this kind of view in women with and without university educations. The career issue may be red herring.

10:38 PM, August 23, 2006  
Blogger Graham Strouse said...

cham--

I am biased by my experiences dealing with & observing the men & women in my own (extended) family & friends but what I have ntoiced is that men are generally seem to have more better aptitude for investing money & women are usually better at budgetting the proceeds.

Regarding the article, I do not dispute the economic fears described by these women. But they are by no means alone. EVERYBODY this side of Gates & Buffett is anxious these days & generally with good reason.

The bad lady stuff is nonsense. Roughly three-fourths of the homeless population in the US is male, 80% of these men are under the age of 45 & are quarter are under the age of 25.

Social Security is a legit concern for everyone, as is the decline in available medical insurance.

In 2001, according to the CDC, illness, typically chronic (not acute) illness was responsible for 56% of all bankruptcies in the US. Moreover, most of these people had insurance at the time of their bankruptcy.

The percentage of companies that offer health insurance is down to about 60%. I suspect older working "professional" adults (40s-60s) at any rate, probably skew this number up a bit. That's just a hunch & I could well be wrong.

In any event, there's not a lot of economic security for most any of us these days, especially, but not exclusively for those of us with even mild chronic medical conditions.

Better we should stop blaming X or Y demographic and start demanding that everyone receive competent medical treatment & social security.

Anyone wants to kvetch, I'd suggest they peep the 1st & 14th Ammendments & if that doesn't convince them consider the 2nd Ammendment and what it REALLY means. Not just the text, but the subtext.

It's not just morally right, it's sound economics. Invest in the middle-class infratructure & you produce a healthier, more capable, more productive population & do not need to burn as much capital supporting social services & catastropic care for the indigent.

People are another form of wealth. A strong, healthy, happy population produces more, puts less stress on the public wallet & leads to the establishment of a more stable, safer environment for everyone.

When too many people are afraid too much of the time, bad things tend to happen. People usually have good reasons for being afraid. Unfortunately, most people have a hard time identifying what those reasons actually are. More typically, we tend to displace our fears and translate them into the kind of inchoate rage. Individuals & cultures become easy prey for charismatic demagogues, con men (and women) and simple thugs.

American mythology tends to promote a kind of social Darwinism which makes us particularly vulnerable to this sort of thing. Survival of the fittest looks swell when conditions are such "fittest" includes whatever makes you strong, whatever skills you have to sell.

It doesn't look so good when the axis shifts or you get sick and suddenly you're the one being culled from the herd.

People are very clever, though. Cull people from a herd & you'll get a fair number of clever types who figure out how to survive, usually by becoming more efficient predators then those who would do them violence.

They will not be sanguine, however. And what goes around will come around.

That's macro-economics for you. People tend to be very narrow-minded when it comes to their notions of wealth. Invest in people & you're more likely to reap the dividends and less likely to reap the whirlwind.

4:14 AM, August 24, 2006  
Blogger jw said...

Helen: I'm fairly sure the Forbes article is a late response to the number of "Men are afraid of career women" articles and TV shows of last year.

This is an odds thing. Career women are more likely to cheat: A woman's cheating carries a higher risk for a man: The law says he is the father of any children born due to her cheating, (although there are signs in a few places that this may change). None-the-less, a male has a greater interest in keeping cheating by his wife down to the lowest possible odds. The same goes for divorce where men face high risk of devastating loss compared to women.

I dated a lot ... years ago. I stopped dating the career women for the simple reason that they were MUCH more likely to be rude, arrogant, selfish and generally no fun to be around. Which in no way says there were no good career women! Not at all ... there are many.

I've been saying since the first of those "men are afraid of powerful women" curse-word-deleted articles/shows that there is a very good reason for all males to be cautious when dating/marrying career women. There is also a good reason for career women to KNOW that the man she's interested in may well look at her bahavior harder (and with a bigger magnifying glass) than he would the behavior of Jane Ordinary.

Try it this way: My parents are/were alcoholics, the odds of me having a substance abuse problem are higher than for the general male population. Any half way intelligent woman knowing my parentage will look at me just that little bit harder. A similar thing applies to career women ...

4:30 AM, August 24, 2006  
Blogger Mercurior said...

could it be another reason why a lot of women in divorces take the men for everything they have, and the walking wallet syndromes.

6:28 AM, August 24, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Aric,

It is not the definition--it is the terminology implying to me a bit of silliness--career girl is what the "Forbes' article called women who work. It would be hard to see them calling men "career boys." The definition is fine.

KLH:

I think that it unfortunate that your mother told you to squirrel money away--to me, that implies that you cannot trust anyone, much less men. Why would you marry someone you did not trust? If I thought my husband would take money from me like that or I was so afraid constantly of divorce that I squirreled money away, why be married to this person? I agree with you that to hide money like this would result in a less happy marriage. Everyone I know who has a secret stash (and I know men and women who do this) is secretly afraid of their spouse and/or unhappy in their marriage. I would rather lose whatever money I had than to live with a spouse that I secretly thought would steal from me or take away money.

On the other hand, I wonder if it is reaction formation--this squirrelling away of money--women project that if they got angry etc. that they would take the man's money so they figure he would do the same and she better hide it to protect herself.

7:41 AM, August 24, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Helen,

To your reply to KLH, as a father, I will definitely be advising my son to squirrel away some money in a place where no one can find it. Not too much, but a few thousand dollars so that should he find himself on short end of an unexpected divorce, he can get started without having to sleep on a foam mat wrapped in an old dropcloth in the corner of a bare apartment, a place where he would be embarassed to, and maybe even prohibited from, bringing his children on the rare visitation day.

Considering the overall divorce rate and the higher propensity of women to initiate divorce, one bride in three will walk compared with one groom in six. (50% * 67% = 1/3). And considering that in most cases where children are involved, the wife gets the marital home AND generous child support payments and the husband gets something very near poverty.

So indeed, if anyone should be stashing away cash, it should be the men.

Rusty

8:03 AM, August 24, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Rusty,

I imagine that if it comes to the point in a marriage where a person feels that they are heading for a divorce, that advice would make sense. I am going to spend my time trying to help my child have good judgement about the spouse she chooses--in the long run, I hope that will work out better. People seem readily willing to marry people they do not like, do not trust or plain do not really want. I have never understood it, but it happens all of the time.

8:14 AM, August 24, 2006  
Blogger Cham said...

Marriage is a funny thing. When we buy a home we send in an army of inspectors and title searchers to make sure all is well. When we buy a car we read consumer reports and check out where the car has been. When we get married, many people don't even run a simple credit check or criminal history, we are supposed to trust.

However, to get rid of a house or car we sell it, that's easy. To get rid of spouse we have to hire lawyers and go through a great deal of trauma and drama. The secret money stash can be construed as a self-generated insurance policy in the event that something goes awry. With divorce rates running at 50-60% in the US, a little extra cash would be a very good thing, especially if you are married to someone who likes to live hand to mouth.

8:50 AM, August 24, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Helen,

Regarding your comment at 8:14, I do agree with you that starting out with a positive outlook on the prospect of marriage is crucial to its success. But the problem is that no one can really know what their partner is thinking, not now, and certainly not in the future after children and career changes.

I recently read in an AARP publication a comment by some high-level staffer there that she regards the growing divorce rate among older couples as a good thing: it is a demonstration of the empowerment of women. I found the comment to be rather sick, but in light of this growing phenomenon, I really don't have any choice but to advise my son that a bit of marital self-defense is in order.

Rusty

10:41 AM, August 24, 2006  
Blogger Graham Strouse said...

The more I read, the more convinced I become that a 21st century adaptation of medieval marriage is the way to go. Look for a friend, a partner, someone who completes...your portfolio. Seek out an ally and a confidante and someone you would trust with your life and your finances & your kids (if you have any).

But don't sleep with them.

Relationships are easier to manage that way.

Seek ye nookie, but seek it elsewhere. Maybe your wife (or husband) can hook you up. Make for some interesting double dates.

And the crazy thing about this idea is, it really isn't a crazy idea.

1:55 PM, August 24, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Rusty,

I understand--I just hope your son finds a trustworthy partner with whom your advice will not be necessary.

2:31 PM, August 24, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Frankly Dr. H, it seems like damn good advice to me, sexist or not.

3:50 PM, August 24, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I used to teach economics and with the emphasis on high finance the fundamentals are overlooked. Savings and investments are not abstract concepts but can be taught to children in very practical ways. Somehow, they have been relegated to second position after consumerism with the emphasis on fashion and the latest trend as top priority.

It was also not long ago when girls were taught home economics and boys take shop classes. I believe they have also been ignored and relegated to being unimportant and sexist and demeaning as girls do not want to be confined to domestic matters. But look at Martha Stewart and how she parlayed that knowledge into something (before her fall).

My ex expressed the same fear early in our relationship but she would not think twice about buying a $500 handbag while I fiddle and try to rationalize buying a $50 pair of shoes. It is just one example of why the relationship did not last.

8:10 PM, August 24, 2006  
Blogger AmericanWoman said...

I do think some women, even today, don't feel that the money they make, even if it is a lot and more than the man, is 'real' money. They don't feel like the head of the household or even the main breadwinner. It's not something most women grew up thinking they would be doing. I hate to use a term like 'conditioned' but most women in the height of their careers today probably thought they would have a traditional marriage with the man as the main breadwinner.

So perhaps they don't have the right amount of confidence in their ability to keep up the pace and support themselves and their families. They feel it could disappear overnight and they'd be out on the street.

8:23 PM, August 24, 2006  
Blogger BobH said...

I'll start trusting women as a whole when I see them start demanding the repeal of current laws pertaining to paternity fraud. Hell, I might even consider marriage. Right now the vast majority of women seem far too interested in burnishing their reputations for being prosocial, while they do the best they can (i.e., do nothing) to ensure that they are well paid to lie.

If it were men injuring women, women would be screaming bloody murder demanding that men make sure that women are protected. Of course when men do that, they are accuse of "oppressing" women or (I love this one!) "not having a sense of humor".

8:43 PM, August 24, 2006  
Anonymous Shouting Thomas said...

I think men and women both have something to worry about here. With our extended life spans, we face a struggle to survive at a level we enjoyed during our working careers.

I am 56 and I was recently fired in a "corporate restructuring." This is a euphemism for age discrimination. My former employer is systematically weeding out employees who through extended service command big salaries, and replacing them with younger workers who will accept much smaller salaries.

I am struggling to find a new, full-time job, although people are desparate for people with my skills. I get, on average, three to four unsolicited calls from employment agencies a day, asking if I am available. They find my resume on online sites. Everything goes great, until I get to the interview and the kid interviewing me sees my white hair and wrinkles.

My generation eschewed unions, and now we're paying for it.

Most of us need to continue to work well into our 60s and 70s to maintain a decent lifestyle. Age discrimination makes this very difficult. I don't have an answer for this. I'm just trying to save my own neck. But, for once, I'd like to see some recognition of the reality of the prevalance of age discrimination in the workplace.

8:54 PM, August 24, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yo, peeps, did y'all miss this factoid?: "according to a survey by Allianz, a Minnesota-based life insurance company."

I can imagine poll questions like, "if your husband died tomorrow would you be worried about being able to keep your home both now and 30 years from now without his income?"

Answer: "Why yes, I'd be afraid, very afraid"

Q. "Can you live on your projected social security check, or would you have to move under a bridge to make ends meet?"

A. "Omigod, I don't want to live under a bridge!"

Close: "Good, what you need then is a $2.5M policy on your husband with you as an irrevocable beneficiary to negate that eventuality..."

9:23 PM, August 24, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

econ_scott:

Helen works at a University? Helen works? I think not. Check again.

11:39 PM, August 24, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Shouting Thomas-

I don't know what your skills are, but have you tried setting up a shell company and saying that you were a consultant, contractor, or skilled temporary worker agency? That might get around some of the (improper) reservations about your age. Heck, you might even be able to charge more hourly than you would make as an employee - what they'll pay contractors in some fields is amazing.

Just an idea.

12:01 AM, August 25, 2006  
Blogger Graham Strouse said...

This is a scam. All of of it. It's not boys vs. girls. It never was. It's just easier to convince people that in a time of crisis the obvious perp is the actual perp.

What we are facing is the American god, Mercury, the god whose game it is to convince the lucky (and the wealthy) that their luck (and their wealth) are inviolate, inevitable & the logical consequence of their moral superiority & greater skill.

It's a scam because all this god wants from you is to keep on rolling against the House. Kids, the House always wins.

Unless you take out the House.

You could also make a credible case that we are experiencing yet another burp, or maybe an aftershock, of the Jeffersonian hypcrisy that continues to ripple through and rupture American culture.

But even quicksilver has a freezing point & as for Jefferson, well, Sherman and Sheridan did the South over once. Apparently they didn't do an adequate job. the remaining cells have metastasized & inspired riffs and national & international spin-offs on Jefferson's bigotry, his economization of the facade of bucolic rural gentility that fed & feeds of the many to feed a few.

But that's not it, either, is it? No really. Hitler played a similar game. So have most Anglo-American and Anglo-German superiority-victim cults going back to Martin Luther (read his 1543 comments on the Jews for inspiration).

But that doesn't do it either, does it? Go back to medieval England, where the English, who were clever, and wealthy, and greedy, but frequently weak, used guile and wealth to divide the have-nots from the barely-haves. The easiest con today is lower-middle class white America and upper-class white America. The former make good stormtroopers, the latter good propogandists.

In the room the women go,
Talking of Michelangelo.

Yeah, true enough. The men aren't talking of Michelangelo. Maybe they're discussing the Patriots-Cowboys game. Same difference, more or less.

You can go back further, I'm quite certain, but this is a great place to take a break, in England, around the turn of the 14th century. Something interesting happened in England at that time. A bunch of declasse Scotch nobles started comparing notes with educated Scotch peasants and realized that, hey, it's not a smart play to rape, pillage & burn our own 'hood when things go sideways. Let's lay the smack on the perps. They're right next door and really, they're pretty soft.

Now, I want y'all to consider this historical peculiarity that is America. The American Constitution has some really nifty failsafes built into it vis-a-vis the Bill of Rights. I'm partial to the 1st & 14th Ammendments myself, but the 2nd, that's a real doozy. Sneaky, too.

America is the only country in the world where the people who are bent by the yolk & cut by the lash have, in their position the explicit means to rapidly and directly reverse their situation.

The wealth of the more unfortunate Americans is in its weapons.

What about the military, you ask? Funny, but that all-volunteer military, which now includes most of the officers, it draws overhwlemly from the same stock as those who've been hitched to the plows and sent to the fields to pick the cotton. And just for giggles this same population controls nearly all of the US food production, material production & most of the nation's technical ability.

Very few bloggers & pundits, though. Gotta admit that.

It's not boys versus girls. It's the 2% versus the 98%. Those are bad odds, bad enough to turn and burn the house & send Mercury skivving off on his winged way. Those are bad odds, especially when you consider that the 2% is soft, squishy & has much to say on Michelangelo and the merits of the Patriots and Tom Brady, but is not packing anything more then an attitude and a six-pack of Bud Light.

As for the plurality, well...

Let's just say this, as bargaining commences. There is a soft option here a hard option.

Don't get conned. Last recession the oligarchs played the race card. This time they're playing the sex card.

But we don't have to play cards at all, not if we don't want to. Not one of us.

And the more of us there are, the less of them we have to concern ourselves with.

Here endeth the lesson.

1:53 AM, August 25, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

One simple advice from an old sage...

"Do not marry someone who has more money or problems than you do".

I found it very true in previous relationships where I first married a woman who came from a rich family and people always thought that I was just after her money. The relationship ended as she was the typical spoiled high maintainance woman. The second one was a divorced woman who felt that she was always being mistreated and was so emotionally dependent on me. I could not stand the constant whining, craving for attention, jealousy and demands that conflicted with my career. It was always a choice between her needs and my time to attend to clients. Also, when it comes to money her earnings was "her money" but my earnings were "our money".

4:01 AM, August 25, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Graham-

I agree with some of what you say but you seem to have a lot of socialist/communist dogma thrown in there.

Communism doesn't do away with classes and elitism, it just creates new forms of it. The central planners and the bureaucrats become the new elite - they live higher than the masses by skimming the property of the masses. And because there are no "rich" people there is no capital for investment. Because there are no incentives there is little entrepeneurship. It becomes one downward spiral into poverty.

The problems don't come from capitalism - the problems come from hindering capitalism. Crony capitalism. Big business getting the government to intervene in the market for their benefit. Government growing larger and larger and therefore taking more and more of the money people earn. And of course unbacked, fiat currency allows the government to take more and more money through the hidden tax of inflation.

The best you can do is to leave the market alone, fanatically protect property rights, make sure everyone is treated fairly, and decrease the size of government as much as possible.

And aside from the hypocrisy concerning slavery, what was wrong with Jefferson?

6:08 AM, August 25, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

So perhaps they don't have the right amount of confidence in their ability to keep up the pace and support themselves and their families. They feel it could disappear overnight and they'd be out on the street.

Or maybe a lot of them automatically assume 'my money is my money, my husband's money is OUR money.' Really progressive way of thinking, isn't it?

7:17 AM, August 25, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

anonymous 7:17:

I think there is a certain amount of entitlement present in some women with this attitude. They secretly (or maybe not so secretly) see all men as "dad" and themselves as the princess who is supposed to be taken care of--not the other way around. If all of us--men and women--would learn the lesson early in life that we are responsible for ourselves and our finances, perhaps the fear and government services etc. would not be as necessary.

9:29 AM, August 25, 2006  
Blogger Cham said...

Helen:

The very same can be said of some men as well, looking to their gainfully employed wives and girlfriends and a source of food, clothing and shelter. We've discussed the issue at length in one of your previous posts. Some people like providing for other people, some people like to have other people to provide for them. Not everything boils down so easily to the Republican and Libertarian chants of "Personal Responsibility". If one wants to set up another dynamic that is fine. You are trying to set up a gender war here where none is necessary. I watched the CNBC piece and they clearly state that 8% of the female population expects a man to provide for their retirement. I don't think that is a large number and it probably coincides with the number of women who have chosen the SAHM lifestyle.

9:49 AM, August 25, 2006  
Blogger Graham Strouse said...

*Sigh*

I can't win, can I?

Rule of thumb: The more absolutely dependent a population is on particular goods or services, the more the production and distribution of said goods and services should be regulated. By this I mean necessities--health care access, transportation, communication access, education access, etc. Failure to regulate these kinds of services creates an a dangerous imbalance in bargaining power between the haves & have-nots. The Founding Fathers, and yes, I know, they were just a bunch of commies, were very considered about this possibility. Tyranny of the majority & all that.

Heritable wealth & excessive concentration of wealth has the same effect. Concentrated wealth skews bargaining power between the strong & weak in ways that are very hard to fix peaceably. It's not even good from a capitalist's point of view. When money doesn't move, it disappears.

Or goes over to Iraq. Or Africa. Or India. Or Cuba. Quite a few late 19th & early 20th century economists credited wealth concentration as one of the prime-movers behind the truly grotesque Imperial dynasties that defined that period. Guys got so rich, the only way they could make money work was to use it to acquire, control & exploit foreign assets. And people.

Excessive heritable wealth is also bad for internal competition within a country & has a negative effect on overall economic development & technological advancement. Once you have a monopoly in an industry, you can prohibit growth in that industry or competing industries. It is in your best interest to do this & thus it is what tends to happen.

People are funny that way, following their immediate best interest without thought to consequences...

It's bad for the dissemination of ideas because one-crop or limited-crop economies. Who who controls the wealth simply because he who controls the wealth ALSO tends to control major information distribution centers, political agendas and, not least of all, the military.

America is a bit lucky when it comes to that last bit--2nd Ammendment, again.

Hey, if you don't believe me, just ask Adam Smith. He was concerned about what might would happen to the world if Big Merchants (this is pre-industrial stuff, remember)

Now, when it comes to stuff that we don't really need...meh. You need to keep on eye on everyone who has power--Burger moguls and such, but not so much. People have an inalienable right to buy all the useless junk they want. And they do.

This may be Darwin at work so it's probably not a bad thing, all in all.

The main reason I'm an economic liberal is because that is the only way to maintain the adequate balance of power between groups and individuals to enable social libertarianism, curtail social engineering & ensure my ears against the rants of fruity, raging campus feminists & frothy neocons. So long as they're not in a position to trap me in a double pincers movement cause there's a zillion of them and they have complete control of the air, the airwaves, or both.

Otherwise, I've no choice but to respond to their violation of my space and my face with a cleverly executed asymmetrical counter-attack. You know--sneak attacks, ambushes, sniper strikes, backstab attacks at unlikely times.

Just like George Washington use to do.

12:32 PM, August 25, 2006  
Blogger Atticus said...

cham said, "You are trying to set up a gender war here where none is necessary."

I agree. This blog seems to work hard to find a war between the sexes. The result is a slew of angry commenters--interesting to a psychologist, I'm sure.

12:41 PM, August 25, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think there is a certain amount of entitlement present in some women with this attitude. They secretly (or maybe not so secretly) see all men as "dad" and themselves as the princess who is supposed to be taken care of--not the other way around. If all of us--men and women--would learn the lesson early in life that we are responsible for ourselves and our finances, perhaps the fear and government services etc. would not be as necessary.

Here, here Dr. Helen. And of course that sense of responsibility has to extend to not taking what isn't yours. And of course returning said property if you should happen to take what isn't yours.

And as always anyone's opinions - including religious or economic opinions - end at someone else's body or property.

1:21 PM, August 25, 2006  
Anonymous Jim said...

Americanwoman 8:23,

You sum it up very nicely. I wonder if women will be able to get used to seeing themselves as head of household, or co-head (?). Equality is not easy.

Cham,

Your point is also very well taken. There are spoliled rich boys just as there are spoiled rich girls. There are also spolied poor boys and girls, who expect to be taken care of even if that does not mean having cars and vacations lavished on them.

1:33 PM, August 25, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

graham strouse-

Your economics are off on a lot of what you said. Wealth doesn't stop moving when it's acquired, unless you're burning it in piles. It gets invested, which is necessary to employ labor.

There's not a lot wrong with heritable wealth - if someone created value in the marketplace they have a right to do whatever they want with their property, including giving it to their children.

There are some concerns with concentrated wealth - you don't want them corrupting the government and/or the courts or violating the rights of others, but generally the capital they invest is vital to the economy.

1:50 PM, August 25, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

graham strouse-

Your economics are off on a lot of what you said. Wealth doesn't stop moving when it's acquired, unless you're burning it in piles. It gets invested, which is necessary to employ labor.

There's not a lot wrong with heritable wealth - if someone created value in the marketplace they have a right to do whatever they want with their property, including giving it to their children.

There are some concerns with concentrated wealth - you don't want them corrupting the government and/or the courts or violating the rights of others, but generally the capital they invest is vital to the economy.

1:51 PM, August 25, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sorry, duplicate post.

1:52 PM, August 25, 2006  
Blogger Graham Strouse said...

Invested wealth IS moving.

Again, I define wealth more broadly then most people, but wealth-as-capital-as-transactional-symbol is always in motion so long as it is doing something.

Heritable wealth is problematic when it contributes to the excessive concentration of capital wealth. This is the reason behind estate taxation, which incidentally, I support enthusiastically, but only in the top income brackets.

There are two crucial things worth remembering here, now:

1) Any concentration of power in any form which leads to an excessive imbalance in bargaining power/neogiating ability is intrinsically dangerous and unstable.

Power corrupts. Absolute power...you know the rest.

It is not wise to trust anyone with power over you whose interests may or may not conflate with yours.

2) As TS Eliot might put it, America's capital is unhinged from any objective correlative. The old-timey gold standard was just that, but everyone was used to it. It was shiny, heavy, hard to move & it anchored (rather literally) America's wealth, could not be broken down or twinked. There was this much gold. It was here, or there, and folks could keep track of it. Once the anchor chain was severed, money became a phantasm and economics became a street con, a game of Find the Lady. Capital wealth now appears and disappears instantly: 1929, 1987, 2000-2001.

In fairness we do have a pseudo-standard still to this day. It's called black gold by some and it's a bad idea. It's leaky, gets used up too fast, is hard to track & gets us into stupid wars with fevered religious types who believe in an afterlife filled with virgins and dates and live in a present life with lots of sand, guns, infidels (us) and bodies (their families).

It's as if she broked up Fort Knox, shipped it part and parcel into the middle-east and trained & armed a bunch of people who already hated us in imaginative guerilla warfare techniques while they were fighting our last generation of mortal enemies and forgot that they hated us almost much as the other infidels.

Actually, we did do that last bit. Several times, actually. The first bit is a simile, though. It's just completely accurate as such in pretty much all of the particulars.

This is not wise fiscal policy.

2:34 PM, August 25, 2006  
Blogger AmericanWoman said...

' Or maybe a lot of them automatically assume 'my money is my money, my husband's money is OUR money.'

If they did, then why would they be afraid of becomming 'bag ladies'.

Your knee jerk reaction makes no sense.

6:30 PM, August 25, 2006  
Anonymous armchair anarchist said...

the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer, the divisions of rich and poor only grow more and more, the rich want to make more money, the poor just want to make enough to live off..

and many poor dont do that. the rich will always be rich, they will always fidn ways of avoiding paying tax, the poor pay tax, and pay and pay and pay..

the rich can afford high price accountants, ti hide money in offshore accounts, they dont have to pay taxes which pay yhe countries health bills, the social infrastructure. the money has disappeared from the country it was made in.

and how does that help the country,

women do think husbands money is our money, my money is spending money.. it happens.. they are afraid of becoming bag ladies, especially in divorces since they know they are wrong, a lot of women has seen men only as walking wallets, thats all men are. women earn less but thats because of the choices they make, have you ever seen a trash collecter, almost all are men, police, the majority are men, the army majority are men, men are disposable now, and those women are realising, that if men do die, then there is a chance their cash cow will die as well. and they will need to actually work and provide for themselves and the kids.

men pay more in taxes, but take less out of the system as they die so much younger. is that equitable.

men are dying, not getting married, giving up on the rat race, as men are discovering most women only see them as piggy banks, thats why more insurance policies are taken by women on their men, and so on.. they realise than when men are gone.. thats it their easy life is gone as well. thats why women are afriad, they are realising the truth.

6:32 AM, August 26, 2006  
Blogger AmericanWoman said...

As far as the 'Don't Marry a Career Woman' or 'Don't Marry a Lazy Man' all that proves is that couples should talk about roles during marriage and realize that they could change during the course of marriage.

Right now, because of circumstances, I am the breadwinner and my husband is home most of the time. He has taken on many of the 'housewife' chores. He is actually happy doing it and if he wasn't doing it, it would cause me more stress to have to fit that in along with my increasingly stressful job.

But he does want to be out there again, and the money would be nice. Let's face it, everyone is judged by how much money they make. Women who stayed home were not valued and if a man stays home, he is not valued (by society).

8:41 AM, August 26, 2006  
Blogger DRJ said...

I think the message the American media and other PC institutions send today's women is that they can have it all but, if they don't, it's somebody's fault. Thus, in some ways, society encourages women to feel like victims who may not be able to control what happens in their lives. Taken to the extreme, a woman with this mindset might logically fear becoming a bag lady.

1:57 AM, August 27, 2006  
Blogger AmericanWoman said...

well, look at it from the woman's view. If you stay home with your kids, you're a slacker who is leeching off her hard working husband. If you work, your a bad wife/mother because your kids are in day care and your husband may have to make dinner. And now, if you don't look like a supermodel, you've 'let yourself go'.

Not all that much has changed.

9:03 AM, August 27, 2006  
Blogger DRJ said...

Americanwoman,

I think the world is a far different place for women today than it was 50 or even 30 years ago. They can and are expected to choose their careers, lifestyles, and whether to marry or have children. They have far more freedom from childcare and homemaking tasks than women traditionally had. Your focus on women's self-esteem issues (and the examples you give are basically matters of self-esteem) is more evidence that women occasionally embrace the role of victim.

It's not uncommon for women to grow up trying to please others but I think they should adopt a more mature attitude as adults. Rather than worrying about what other people think they should be or do, women would be better off asking themselves: "Am I the kind of person I think I should be?"

12:17 PM, August 27, 2006  
Blogger Allison said...

it's career women, and that's not funny!

seriously, your blog is a feast for people trying to demonstrate precisely how big of losers career women are. You do realize that, don't you?

6:52 PM, August 27, 2006  
Anonymous Econ-Scott said...

Dadvocate 9:31 PM

I may have the answer.

Temporarily Wealthy Sharecropper Syndrom.

About a decade and 1/2 ago I was in one of the top two consulting houses in the world and my boss put the Dragon Lady in charge of me to get her out of his hair.

She was highly educated, PhD in English, had taught at a major university, raised two sons and a girl on her own after her husband, now ex, went alchoholic, was in her late 50's owned a house in a top 1/2 % Exclusive area some stock & pension and fought like a wildcat over accounts and control control control.

She was a sad person actually, well into $100K plus income but chose to live in an area which required probably more like $200K to live and save.

She was in a marketing driven company with litte REAL marketing skills, nor desire to acquire them. That what she needed me for. I put up with it for 12 months & moved on.

She was alone, mean and yearned for love dignity (at an expensive level) and respect.

Living Strictly middle class or lower middle class alone and mean was a huge fear for her.

After her job there was only her garden, not much pension and she knew she couldn't continue to feed the lifestyle without the career.

She was making six figures but would probably only last at that level for 7 to 8 years.

I think she is representative of ALOT of women in "The City" with little religious faith, failed marriages, smart and temporarily successful. Had a rich enough period long enough to taste the fruit, but not own the farm.

5:59 PM, August 28, 2006  
Anonymous Econ-Scott said...

anonymous 11:39

you wrote Helen Works? Check again

I corresponded with her before she took up the more dynamic role of the dynamic duo mantle in podcasting etc., InstaLawyer plays the "Straight Man"

Yes she did have a practice and some type job at a University as a "forensic psychologist" -- someone who documents maniacal kids, most of which simply needed a marine corp discipline unit + drill sargeant, a camp in the middle of an island in the deep everglades, and a choice at age 18, 20-25 in the state pen. or USMC.

Then she had a near death experience I'm thinking about a year ago with a not as rare occurance as you would think, young female good lookin and Heart Attack.

So now she either decided to change activity or is one of those people battling the claims department "On Disability" e.g. (if you can pick citrus in Florida as a migrant farm hand 51% of the day, then you must not be disabled.)

So now she get's to deal with Snarky Blog posters part of her day, and Insta-lawyer the other part of her day.

That's probably harder work than her past job dealing with "Maniacal Adolescents."

6:32 PM, August 28, 2006  
Anonymous Econ-Scott said...

armchair anarchist

The reason MOST men die before their wives --

-- they want to.

6:40 PM, August 28, 2006  
Blogger Graham Strouse said...

Guys, just be really chary of women in the 21-29 age bracket & you'll be fine. Younger then that, it's more like then not they haven't learned to be gold-diggers. Older then that, especially with career women & even more so with women who've had one or two bad adventures, maybe a marriage and maybe a kid they fight to afford & they'll appreciate decency a little more & not be quite so consumed by the need for perfection.

Maybe aim for the mid-30s. And don't expect perfect yourself. What is?

The center does not hold. Such is life. Type-A men of any age who've never known anything but success and hungry hotties in their 20s who chew through boyfriends like a Prada-clad Rottweiler are probably the worst marriage investments you could devise.

Younger folks (er, it is a good idea not to go TOO young, both for emotional and legal reasons) are less likely to have noisome preconceptions and older folks are more likely to have learned to see through them.

Of course, this is like me saying A=A for a given value of "A". And I say that sort of thing a lot.

But it's not a bad rule of thumb.

8:53 PM, August 28, 2006  
Blogger Graham Strouse said...

BTW: I recall reading somewhere recently that the present standard (US, across the board) for "Lower Middle Class" is about $30k.

It's a career, just not a good one...

This isn't meant to be a critique so much as an observation. Let the fur fly, but elsewhere, just this once...

9:21 PM, August 30, 2006  
Blogger Graham Strouse said...

econ-scott,

Let's hope that this was an off-the-cuff rant. Otherwise, mon frere, I gotta tell ya:

You. Have. No. Clue.

And you drool excessively.

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