Failing in life or winning at sex?
Slate: Sex Is Cheap: Why young men have the upper hand in bed, even when they're failing in life (via Newsalert):
We keep hearing that young men are failing to adapt to contemporary life. Their financial prospects are impaired—earnings for 25- to 34-year-old men have fallen by 20 percent since 1971. Their college enrollment numbers trail women's: Only 43 percent of American undergraduates today are men. Last year, women made up the majority of the work force for the first time. And yet there is one area in which men are very much in charge: premarital heterosexual relationships. ...
When attractive women will still bed you, life for young men, even those who are floundering, just isn't so bad. This isn't to say that all men direct the course of their relationships. Plenty don't. But what many young men wish for—access to sex without too many complications or commitments—carries the day.
Labels: men's issues
posted by Helen at 7:53 AM
36 Comments:
The article is assuming that when men have sex they are "winning" and when women play keepaway, make men woo them and get themselves married off them they win. I hate to break it to everyone one but women want to have sex just as much as men want to have sex. Take away the shaming and people will have sex, lots of it.
I hate to break it to everyone one but women want to have sex just as much as men want to have sex. Take away the shaming and people will have sex, lots of it.
In the article linked by Dr. Helen, there appear the following passages:
"In one frequently cited study, attractive young researchers separately approached opposite-sex strangers on Florida State University's campus and proposed casual sex. Three-quarters of the men were game, but not one woman said yes. I know: Women love sex too. But research like this consistently demonstrates that men have a greater and far less discriminating appetite for it."
and
"Finally, as my colleagues and I discovered in our interviews, striking numbers of young women are participating in unwanted sex—either particular acts they dislike or more frequent intercourse than they'd prefer or mimicking porn (being in a dating relationship is correlated to greater acceptance of and use of porn among women)."
T don't think that those findings don't support the contention that women want to have sex just as much as men want to have sex.
I hate to break it to everyone one but women want to have sex just as much as men want to have sex. Take away the shaming and people will have sex, lots of it.
Unless they're married to you. :)
To say that "women want to have sex just as much as men" doesn't really cover the dynamic properly.
The female libido works differently. That said, women do indeed tend to seek male company and sex, which means that no matter how many men turn out to be "losers" women will tend to eventually be willing to bed them.
Although I think it'll be more complicated than this, I can easily foresee a time in the not too distant future when men just quit trying to be breadwinners period, knowing that women will come to them eventually.
I was unimpressed by the article.
It assumed that women weren't in charge of their relationships because they were doing things their mothers would not, which is quite a diminuitive statement to make. As if today's women have no agency whatsoever. They choose to sell their sex cheaply like this, because the fembots have taught them both that their sexuality is their #1 asset and how to exploit that asset...even as little girls.
I mean, let's face it, when one imagines the following conversation between man and woman:
Woman: "All you want is sex!"
Man: "Yeah?" or, "Well, what else you got?!"
in the context of near 50pc divorce rates, automatic mother custody, Napoleonic DV and rape laws, and employment and social discrimination in favor of women, it is clear that women really don't have much to offer men except their sexuality. The market is flooded with cheap female sex.
Moreover, women's hypergamous nature means that they're pursuing the same small set of men. This competition further drives "prices" down. For that small slice of men that women find attractive enough to get all excited about, it is truly a buyer's market.
@ Dean,
"The female libido works differently"
Exactly right. The cold-call approaches used in the study are designed to tweak the male libido, not the female one.
Now if they were to throw in some money, status, some danger, maybe a hint of violent-but-reformable thuggery, and that hamster cage will spin off the axle all the way to the boudoir.
So all I have to do for sex is sit around and wait? Wish I'd thought of that before I went to college...
I hate to break it to you, but women will never want sex as badly as a young man in the prime of his life will. Young men will have sex with the fattest, smelliest, ugliest woman that comes their way just because they need to have sex. For men, having sex is like urination; it's a physical need that they must satisfy and they'll go to any end to do so.
So all I have to do for sex is sit around and wait? Wish I'd thought of that before I went to college...
Well, you could try several methods that require little more effort than just sitting around. Many women want to have sex with married men just because they see them as a challenge. So, buy a wedding band and head to a bar where married men tend to hang around and start complaining about your bitchy wife. Women who want what they can't have and women who like "broken" men will snatch you up in a heartbeat.
If you're halfway decent looking, you could go to a bar where older women tend to go. Older women think they still "have it" when younger guys hit on them. So, say a couple nice things to some older woman who you'd otherwise never dream of having sex with and you'll have a pretty good chance of having sex with her.
You can sign up for an online dating website. One-third of women who meet men online have sex on the first date. If you're interested in catching a disease or having a kid with one of these desperate women, don't bother with a condom - because three-quarters of those women don't use a condom. If you really want to increase your odds, go after the older women.
Finding someone to have sex with isn't too hard. You just have to know where to look.
When the tanks are full, women are prettier, they smell better, and are just infinitely more interesting to talk to.
Otherwise I prefer my cabinet saw or my Epiphone Dot and Hot Rod DeVille.
If young "loser" men are still finding easy access to sex... I think that says a lot more about the women than it says about the men.
"I think that says a lot more about the women than it says about the men."
--
Why, the women should clamp it up until the money flows from the man?
And then clamp it up again once he is securely planted in a wage slave position?
I put this on spearhead...but it fits here too....
I am a man now 'failing at life' according to the wimminz. I have no house, no kids, no savings, will never bounce a grandson on my knee. (That these things were stolen unlawfully does not seem to stop women from calling me a loser. Go figure.)
But I am happier than I have ever been. It sure helps when you can knock 1,000 hours out of your work year. The asset I have is my software and my brain. More than enough for me to make a VERY comfortable living from. My fav#1 and I chatted recently. I told here that I can't even be bothered to game women any more. It was only fun for about 6 months. I just tell the new ones I meet that I make a lot of money. She said "but they will just chase you for your money if you say that" to which I replied "exactly" and winked. It's THAT easy to date women. It really is. The next woman will put out if they don't. The idea of persuing a woman now appears to be perversely stupid to me...and I was that stupid for a long time. The younger guys might need some 'game'....I don't. I have also decided to give up on the whole 'honest' bullshit with women. Have they been honest to me? No. They can bitch all they like about men being 'dishonest'. Pot...kettle...black...
Their ONLY weapon of using shaming language has worn off. When a woman calls me shallow I smile and reply 'I make shallow hal look like the marinara trench'. Women have tried all sorts of lies. They have tried everything from "You are taking advantage of these women" to "they are just whores trying to get your money". I notice that women will call women whores much faster than men will. Oh? My ex didn't take advantage of me? Me ex wasn't a whore? Hhhmmm. The wimminz have thrown their credibility down the toilet. That was THEIR choice. They will take 10 generations to get any real credibility back.....if ever.
The wimminz have lost their most valuable allies. Men. We are sick and tired of being victims of crime without a path to justice. We are sick and tired of being hated on. We are shrugging. In LARGE numbers.
The only thing left for men to do is to claim their birthrights and to defend them. The right to life, liberty and property. When men actually start defending their rights? THEN we will start winning. THEN we will start turning the tide in our favour. Can ANY man imagine what it's going to look like when you men actually ARM yourselves and go down to the cops and say to the commanding officers:
"Dude. I am a Sovereign. I have plenty of Sovereign mates you don't know. We are going to live peacefully and lawfully o nthis land God gave us. If you order ANY of your lads to steal from us? Beat us? Rob us? We are going to shoot YOU. There is nowhere for you to run to. There is nowhere for you to hide. So YOU best to learn YOUR Magna Carta. You best not to be bothering us, eh? Just LEAVE US ALONE and we will LEAVE YOU ALONE."
How many commanding officers are going to send cops after you unlawfully when he knows it is HIS arse on the line? None. That's how many. And then men simply go about living life peacefully and lawfully. And I would encourage men to form courts to fairly and justly dispense justice as well. THEIR commercial courts are pirate ships. When MEN take up arms to defend THEIR rights in large numbers? When MEN create their won courts as their own ultimate authority? THEN they will be free. Not one minute before.
@Ern said...T don't think that those findings don't support the contention that women want to have sex just as much as men want to have sex.
_____________
I think women like sex more than most realize. I don't think their rejection of opportunities is an indication of less desire than is it of it being easier to come by. If the men passed up the opportunity, it is gone forever. The women who said no, which is in keeping with their image, can still create an opportunity without much effort. Men are far less choosy about who the sleep with, making it much easier for women to create their opportunities.
One interesting thing we hear is all the "stats" where men average more partners than women. It's false. It's actually mathematically impossible--any time a man has a new partner, a woman does as well, keeping the number of partners identical for both. What we actually see is that over 80% of the women are attracted to fewer than 10% of the men... so when ever a woman sleeps with a man who has twice as many sex partners, that has more to do with the appeal of Alphas than it does of the relative percentages (i.e., 80% of women usually reserve sex for 10% of men). Normally, when the same women go out with betas (men they tag for expensive dates but never have sex with), they have fewer partners the women just don't know it, since her dating him has nothing to do with wanting sex. (Sort of like how men who only want sex never ask how many kids a woman wants, women who only want an expensive dinner/trip/etc. never ask about sex histories).
I chuckle when I hear women say things like "all men are jerks." No, most men aren't jerks, but the majority of the men women have sex with are.
"When attractive women will still bed you, life for young men, even those who are floundering, just isn't so bad."
Helen: substitute "any" for "attractive", and you'll have the whole answer.
as men slide down the "attractiveness" scale, so do their standards. (Check out any of the couples at an online gaming- or anime convention.)
I am SO glad I no longer have to date, or deal with women (except my wife) under any circumstances other than coworker, casual acquaintance or wife of a friend.
Another reason women think most men have it made, when most men do not, is that the only men women pay much attention to are Alphas. They see an Alpha getting laid like a gang-banger, and they think that is life for men.
How often do these women look at Betas -- who are wasting away paying alimony (often for an ex who cheated on them), child support (often for kids that aren't theirs biologically), etc., often because they believed women appreciated being treated well -- and think, he didn't deserve that? Not often.
Hi Helen,
interesting discussion...here's some things you might want to share with your fellow women.
My fav#1 (Ukrainian) has a son who is 18. She has been working her arse off here in Germany saving up for his uni fees. EUR4,000 euros for the year she tells me. This compares with her mothers pension of EUR40 per month. It's a FORTUNE. The lad has been handed this opportunity via his (single) mothers hard work. What did he do? He refused to go. The money is lost. He simply sees no value in going to uni. And afgter 90 years of feminism he would be right. You women have made it clear to us. They are NOT OUR CHIDREN. So why should we work hard for them. YOU WOMEN want the kids? YOU work for them.
Of course. Since women have, in the VAST MAJORITY, chosen to support PERJURY in court? Why would we be honest back to you. I have, just this weekend, decided I am not longer going to be honest to women. Why should I? They lied to me first and for a long, long time. I pointed out to my fav#4 that women allowing women to get away with lying was going to have a devastating effect against women because men will not longer consider lying to a woman a 'problem' and will not police him for it. I told her when THAT happens the women lose. This is because the woman carries the greater reproductive liability and has the shorter reproductive life (take it up with God if you don't like that). I told her all that a man has to do is to lie to a woman that he WANTS a family when he feels that she is 'the right one' and that he feels that will take 2-3 years. What can she do? If he lies she is out 2-3 years.
She once said to me. It is totally unfair. A man can put a woman on the street after 2-3 years with nothing but her suitcases. I replied "and you think this is worse than stealing a mans children, his house, his money, his future income, and he does not even get the suitcases?". Her face dropped very hard when I said that. She is realising she is in the middle of this backlash and she is desperate to have children. In Germany? Even the hottest women can not get any sort of 'commitment' out of a man because the men know they are NOT their children. So if you do not get to have your own kids? Why get married when there is a queue of women going to try and talk you into it? The ONLY thing a man has to do is lie to the women that he wants a family and he will do fine. And the women have NO DEFENCE. They lied first.
Kim said...
as men slide down the "attractiveness" scale, so do their standard
Hysterical......women will tell any lies to make them look good. Mens standards go down WITH THEIR INCOME. Or have you never heard of Anna Nicole Smith and the 'love of her life'? Women want babies and money to pay for THEIR babies. They want man-slaves. And you women don't like us telling the young men the truth. Tough.
J. Bowen said...
"I hate to break it to you, but women will never want sex as badly as a young man in the prime of his life will. Young men will have sex with the fattest, smelliest, ugliest woman that comes their way just because they need to have sex."
J..speak for yourself. Some of us have self control and keep it in our pants. Comments like this being tried to apply to 'all men' are derogatory and NOT TRUE. This is the same attitude that when I was faithful for my 23 year relationship with my ex women dismiss that claim as "all men cheat". No. We don't. But we SURE SHOULD now that we know we will be assumed to be cheaters even when we are not. Thanks ladies for telling us that you don't appreciate honesty or fidelity. I'll be telling the young men those things are mistakes.
Trust said...
"I think women like sex more than most realize."
Guys...women LOVE sex that is good sex. You can take that as GOSPEL from me. However, it is their MAJOR tool of manipulation of a man who really cares about them. This is why they use it ruthlessly as a weapon in the VAST MAJORITY of western marriages. Even to the extent that they will make FRAs against their husbands just to 'put him in his place'....ditto False DV allegations.
It's not that they don't LIKE sex. It's that they know THAT is their MAJOR power angle so they HAVE to use it as a weapon if they are not going to be honest. And WW have proven they are dishonest is the VAST majority...the use of sex as a weapon and dishonesty go together.
"I think women like sex more than most realize."
But not more than a man.
"J..speak for yourself."
I certainly wasn't speaking about myself. I have a house on Lake Michigan, no kids, and no wife. Fat and ugly women are for poor guys (and the statistics prove it) and I'm not poor (for my area; I'm definitely not moving to Newport Beach anytime soon).
Comments like this being tried to apply to 'all men' are derogatory and NOT TRUE.
Did I use the word "all" somewhere and not realize it? Could someone please double check my post to see whether I used the word "all"?
The fact is, I didn't use the word "all"; you did. Of course it's not true that ALL men are this way or that way. But it is true that men in general want sex more than women in general. Whether some or most men control their urges better than others is irrelevant (and proves the point anyways).
Guys...women LOVE sex that is good sex.
So do guys. But a guy isn't going to not have sex simply because it's not good. He'll keep plowing in to you as long as you let him because it almost always feels good for the man. Sure, great sex is more fun, but when it comes down to the nuts and bolts of it, sex, for the man, feels good where it counts most of the time.
However, it is their MAJOR tool of manipulation of a man who really cares about them.
The same is true for men whose girlfriends think they're great in bed. A man who can satisfy a woman can, in many cases, treat her however he wants, up to and including beating the crap out of her. Sex can be a tool for anyone. The only difference between men and women when it comes to the use of sex as a weapon is that men (*** in general ***) want sex more and will put up with much more to get it because it feels good for men more often than it does for women. If sex was as good for women as it is for men in most cases (a person who has very little sex has less to compare what sex he/she does get against, and will put up with more than he/she might if he/she had more experience), things wouldn't be so lopsided.
I have found that i am not winning in the sexual marketplace either. een though i have had easy sex, that's not what i want. it never was. i have always wanted a woman to love, who loved me back...
i can't even find a women i can tolerate spending time with, let alone date.
it seems like all women are able to pull off any more is acting bored, or trying to tease, play hard to get. it seems that mostly they are into nothing more than validation.
it seems that in older generations women contributed much towards the social interaction. they were engaging, charming, showed interest, and made openings for men who may be interested.
but now it's like all women are waiting for us men to perform for them. mainly so they can grade us, brutally. it's a dirty trick. it's a game you can't win. even if she likes you, she has to treat you like shit so i can prove myself to her? that's a little too masochistic for me.
I have jumped through a bunch of shit tests before. even though i garnered her affection in nearly every case, by the end of the process i felt like i had lost part of my soul, demeaned, and degraded myself to impress her, and in turn, resented her for it.
that's where i stand now... no woman is worth any of this shit!
@JG You kinda missed the point.
That women now give it up to any shiftless layabout is what I was getting at. And when that happens, what incentive does a young man to 'man-up' as the last few posts here have been about.
Women and society in general no longer reward men for being 'men'. Consequently, they no longer bother to try. They put that energy into their own pursuits.
If NYC women have a dearth of quality men, just perhaps, they are reaping what they've sown.
Casting pearls before swine is seldom a fruitful pursuit, and the pearls tend to lose their lustre in the process.
" what incentive does a young man to 'man-up' "
More precise, men are just as manly and responsible as we've ever been, we just aren't being selected.
Men work as much as they are able, and enjoy our pursuits. This has been true of all men throughout recorded history.
As long as we had the means to pursue our own ends, we do. Work always serves dual purpose as providing sustenance as well as opening doors.
The standard of what manhood means to some women has changed. The by product of our floundering economy has meant less access to resources
that may make it seem like we are staying immature, but the reality is that we are all making the shrewdest decisions possible.
Not only is failing at life but winning at sex true for men, but so is the opposite, winning at life but failing at sex. I'm a good example of winning at life but failing at sex. I successful at every aspect of life except when women are involved. I'm almost 33, still a virgin (and a complete and total virgin at that), and women want nothing to do with me. Women have even come on to my blog and said that I should be put in prison for the "crime" of not being wanted by women.
At this point I'm tired of working just so I can be taxed for money that gets wasted on ungrateful women who would see me dead. I'm using every (legal) trick in the book to minimize my taxable income and offshoring as much as my assets as possible. That way I will be funding those who hate me as little as possible.
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"That women now give it up to any shiftless layabout is what I was getting at. And when that happens, what incentive does a young man to 'man-up' as the last few posts here have been about."
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It sounds to me like you're saying that pretty much the ONLY reason men have to take on whatever responsibilities you think constititute "manning up" ... is because women will then pick them for sex.
If that's true (and it sure sounds like what you are saying), I don't think that's a very good reason at all. And if there are other, better reasons in your mind, why is that one out front and center in your writing?
You should follow through on your responsibilities because that's how mature people act. So should women, by the way, but the very phrase "man up" seems to exclude them. How about "grow up"? You should follow through on your responsibilities because that's how you yourself want to be treated by others, and mature people realize that you have to also act that way, not just be a recipient.
Women are not goddesses up on a pedestal. They are human beings. They aren't worth being worshiped. They aren't worth all the other silly things that chivalristic males ("white knights") overlay on their personalities.
I much prefer "grow up" to "man up" and why not include women? Why give them a pass to act like children but reap all the benefits of being a grown-up human being (and more ... like just getting money for sitting on their fat butt via marriage).
I chuckle when I hear women say things like "all men are jerks." No, most men aren't jerks, but the majority of the men women have sex with are.
Indeed -- that pretty much sums up the topic quite well, I think.
I chuckle when I hear women say things like "all men are jerks."
Women who say that are bitter because that is the only kind of men that they can attract.
If you were to walk up to a total stranger and ask them if they wanted to have sex with you and they said "no", it does not mean that they don't want to have sex, it just means that they don't want to have sex with "you"-a random stranger.
I think that it's a little cynical to distill men's motives to sex. I and most of the men I know were raised to believe we had something to contribute to the world, and that many of the tests of manhood are about honing in on, and cultivating that purpose. Additionally there are other rewards for most things. Quality of life, friendship, family, even spiritual.
Even with regard to romantic and sexual relationships, some of us were brought up with the hope that there would be some one special. Much more than just sex. If all I wanted was sex than I would've given up to the hundreds of ladies I passed on, because I was looking for something more.
I know I am not the only one to feel this way. I know several hundred men just like me all over socal. The damnable misery is that the women are the ones purporting this myth, just so they can sell it, it's noxious.
When I was younger, still in high school, I began to understand that if I could get through my late teens, and early twenties without, "needing," a woman, I could go my entire life without one. all the hard work is already done. I know that as i stay busy and focused, that more and more opportunities will present themselves.
The simple truth of the matter is that 90% of the things I want to accomplish in life, have absolutely nothing to do with women. Most of these would be made worse to include women.
I grow so tired of the "sex uber alles" mentality that people have. They say that the quality of life for young men is failing on all fronts, but hey, they can still get laid!
Supposedly, that makes it alright, I guess.
Newslfash, America! There is a whole bunch more to life than just getting laid. There is a whole bunch more to getting laid than just "bedding" a hot chick and getting your rocks off.
Oh, and there is a whole bunch of risk to getting laid, too. God forbid you get some gal pregnant, because she has you by the cojones for the next 18 years.
Goober,
I very much agree. The opportunity cost for any kind of sex is ridiculous, from potential retaliatory legal actions for perceived slights, of course the rampant and spiraling rates of STD's, - especially herpes - oft mentioned financial obligations, it's a bit like russian roulette.
Something else exists for me though. with the success of feminism at opening doors for women, they have worked themselves into every corner of society.
The only time free of the feminine influence and judgmental gaze of women is to escape to the privacy of my cave. the only way to preserve the cave is to restrict access.
Why buy the cow, when you're getting the milk for free?
i am reminded of the 20/20 documentary that depicted a town in italy where all the men refused to marry. they just lived with their parents and had good jobs and ignored the women.
solves a lot of problems, and creates some new ones.
man up means cough up to some.
Well there is more to this dichotomy. The upper 20% or so of men are the ones that are banging like there is no tomorrow. While the rest have much lower prospects if not none at all. For the bottom 80% or so they are artificially stuck with bottom feeder lower quality females than what would be ordinary in a patriarchal construct.
This is typical under matriarchy and the associated construct of polyandry. The bottom 80% of men on an exponential scale have lower and lower incentive to produce anything. The top 20% have little incentive to commit because they monopolize all the tail and as such they hold all the cards and as women have surely experienced especially on college campuses these men can afford to be "jerks".
In fact with such disparity of gender ratios it is really a race to the bottom for women : ) Put out or get out.
This is especially true in environments with high female to male ratios such as college campuses now a days and as the report suggested affluent areas where there are more females since women out earn men by an average of 8% but in some areas as much as 21%.
My best suggestion to women would be to get knocked up by the top 20% of men you chase then become a single mother. If you are lucky find a committed beta cuckold to help raise your fatherless bastard.
Women are going to have a harder time finding quality men in the years to come and if they are not willing to participate in the race to the bottom to get knocked up by the top 20% of men then you will be left childless with your cats and dildo but perhaps banging the preponderance of lower achieving men in between. Welcome to your matriarchy ladies : )
So much for women doing away with being a "sex object" aye. In the last 20 or so years they have increasingly had to put more and more pressure on themselves to be attractive and to sexualize themselves.
The system of "female empowerment" at the expense of men is set up to promote this. The dichotomy is dually compounding because not only on top of the increasingly amount of disenfranchised under achieving men you have women pricing themselves out of the market through their own advancement and hypergamous mating preference.
Example 1
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=726485&l=1a2fb39a10&id=1622331797
Example 2
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=726486&l=688b97c625&id=1622331797
It all serves to divide and conquer men and women into separate socio-political and socio-economic classes. Social, political and even economic policy is then created to fill in the gap which further exacerbates the process. Thus you have the rise of the Men's and Father's Rights Movement which seeks to curtail matriarchal and gynocentric laws and policies.
Increasingly as you might have already noticed women will advocate for their separate and secular gender class interests at the expense of men. As is current they are being granted these requests. It is a self consuming and self compounding process. It can only go on for so long until the system consumes itself of its own means of production.
Rebukingfeminism.blogspot.com
The article is absolutely accurate. It clearly reflects the true male/female interactions in modern societies/economies. I would add that as a male in my late twenties, I can identify my own behavioural pattern in the description. Additionally, regarding the gender appetite for sex, again the first answer is spot on. Women hold the key. They decide when and to whom make themselves available. Whereas men would mostly never turn down a casual encounter opportunity if granted. In simple terms, women are nest builders with a long term plans. However, men are scavengers with short term interest. Perhaps these tendencies reflect on their social behaviour and could explain why in recent years women tend to perform better professionally or academically in the same age bracket. Is it natural selection that has produced such social behaviour? (with men living more dangerous, nomadic lifetime in the wild as hunters & gatherers where women were living sedentary caring for homes)
Finally the observation might change over older samples as couples are formed and females are biologically destined to bare children and care for them therefore deserting professional activities.
Long winded comment, I got carried away...:)
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