Carrie L. Lukas at the Independent Women's Forum: "What's the Matter with Men and, More Importantly, Why IS So Much the Matter?"
posted by Helen at 11:06 PM
Wednesday, February 16, 2011
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55 Comments:
Have Lukas, Hymowitz, etc considered that their premise is faulty - maybe there ISN'T "so much wrong" with men, and that what they see on TV shows and Judd Apatow movies are not indicative of a representative cross-section of society?
How many men do these women really know who are like this? Do they really think bajillions of men are lining up for low-wage, clock-punching jobs, putting in the minimum hours possible before rushing home to plop in front of the boob tube (you know, like a good portion of housewives do?)
Hymowitz in particular might want to put her upper-crust anxiety on the shelf for a moment to consider whether she's seeing a huge selection bias problem - in particular, it appears young educated women excel at picking out high-alpha but low-comfort men, guys who charge their engines but don't show much proclivity for sticking around.
And so maybe whatever complaints she hears from the sisterhood may be a function of their ability to catch thugs and cads and not a reflection of all the available options. You don't even have to bring the family court system into the discussion and you've already accounted for probably half the issue.
Another item: it is complete junk to say that men are immature for playing video games. It just doesn't even compute, even more so when you consider the typical woman's appetite for junk TV and beyond-stupid magazines.
The definition of maturity is you pay your bills and you obey the law.
I'd much rather adults played video games than, say, went out to bars and got dangerously drunk, or rolled up debt on trinkets or property they had no real business buying.
This is all part of the shaming language, the idea that women get to define to men what manhood is.
It's a typical fallacy to claim women "mature faster" than men because they are quicker to want marriage and parenthood. The exaltation of parenthood as the apex of social status has led to a 40% illegitimacy rate.
For those who say that marriage "forces a man to his potential," I work to my potential just fine thank you very much without the prodding of a wife or the pressures of bills. If other men don't and need to be yoked for it, that's not my problem.
I haven't ruled out marriage by any means, but it doesn't sound like encouragement to be told "marriage is a benefit because you'll work harder because you have to."
What Topher said!
The smartest person in the room is Kay Hymowitz who has tapped into some sort of itch or uncomfortableness in the older American middleclass just enough to gear up to sell a heck of a lot of books. She shall laugh all the way to the bank, and Helen Smith is doing her best to enlarge Ms. Hymowitz's saving's account.
Welcome to middle America's favorite new past-time, matrimania. This new book could just as easily been about how women are turning into adolescent girls, refusing to get married and have children. As a woman that years ago chose not to take that path I know that was the smartest decision ever made. I have enjoyed a fulfilling life doing what I want to do as opposed to waiting hand and foot on a husband and kids. Men have to learn to ask themselves: Does what my nudgenik annoying judgmental neighbor think of me matter and do I care? If the answer is yes, go get married and have kids. If you can stand the occasional odd look and nasty comment then enjoy your video games and beer.
Don't make a problem out of something that isn't. We have a border teeming with immigrants just begging to become Americans. They will do a fine job paying taxes when the rest of the nonprocreating population retires.
Topher, I concur almost completely, except that I have written off marriage. (I also don't play video games.) Incidentally, I own a couple books published by the IWF and they have been consistently rational and fair.
It's pretty clear that women are the problem.
Regardless if a man marries, or if he marries and has children. He still "has to". A man's whole life is "have to" whether he does it alone and for himself, or for a wife and family as well.
I don't care if any woman sees that, or not. I don't care if any woman understands that, or not.
I think I have bought into the hooker thing, finally, with many women. I never wanted to think that way, to believe that. I won't bore anyone with details. Most men have stories of their own.
Video games are the least of men's problems. Family Court is our problem.
Trey
Everything old is new again. Google "Why Bother?, by Kim du Toit"
"http://cms.mgtow.net/?q=node/49"
What it boils down to is this: all the 'rules' (and laws) are in womens' favor. So any thinking man says: "Why play a game that I can clearly see is rigged against me?"
Men are left with 3 choices:
1) Be a cad (play by my own rules)
2) Opt out
3) Acquiesce to the roll of chump
Faced with these options: Is it any great wonder that choices 1 & 2 are gaining traction?
I don't think this woman has it figured out, either. Birth control pills changed the whole male-female equation. Suddenly, women had the option of free sex with as many men as she chose. Men had the barrier to sex lowered and women seemed to think that giving men what they wanted freed women ! It was the fulfillment of every guy's dream, at least the less moral of them.
The pill was not the only revolution although it was the big one. Women got the idea that their role in the human race was unsatisfactory. Being the female and raising the family was demeaning work. This was new and is probably behind the demographic collapse of western civilization, at least the most "advanced" countries.
Men became superfluous to some women who decided that "a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle." Men became suspicious of these women assuming, rightly in many cases, that they preferred lesbian relationships and struck out at men when they had a chance. Title IX is an example, not so much in the writing of the law but in the implementation. Most of the secondary men's sports like crew and wrestling have been devastated. My daughter, who is tall and athletic, but very feminine, was looking for some sort of women's sport at UCLA. She saw Rugby in the program and thought she would see what that was about. She said she had never seen such a bunch of butches and she had trouble getting rid of some of them.
Men finally decided that it wasn't worth the pain to keep going in for traditional relationships as sex was readily available and pornography took care of those who had trouble finding partners. I suspect that prostitution, as described in Super Freakanomics, has grown considerably although I haven't tried to test the theory.
My two sons are married although the older one waited until 44 to marry. One has three children, the other has one due in May. One of my daughters is married and one is still in school. All of them are children of divorce, which must affect them. Still, traditional marriage is not dead but it has absorbed some mighty blows.
Wmoen don't like video games because of their narcissistic need for their men to only pay attention to them.
"look at MEEE!" Isn't a sign of maturity and rational thoguth
Wmoen don't like video games because of their narcissistic need for their men to only pay attention to them.
Very true. As I was reading the earlier comments, I was thinking that, if there were a woman in my life, she wouldn't approve of the time that I spend playing transcriptions of renaissance lute pieces on classical guitar. It has nothing to do with the behavior itself; it has to do with control.
Ern, +1
Topher said...
Another item: it is complete junk to say that men are immature for playing video games. It just doesn't even compute, even more so when you consider the typical woman's appetite for junk TV and beyond-stupid magazines.
Exactly. You can't tell me that reading US and People and/or watching Oprah are more edifying or mature pursuits than video games.
LPF, I think there is a fourth choice. Go to church, find a woman who is healthy and believes in the sanctity of marriage, marry her, both of you work hard to have a great marriage.
Trey
I haven't written off marriage. I am married and it's great.
But it did take me 'til age 38 to find a woman who was worth a shit. :-)
TMink said...
LPF, I think there is a fourth choice. Go to church, find a woman who is healthy and believes in the sanctity of marriage, marry her, both of you work hard to have a great marriage.
Trey
1:33 PM, February 17, 2011
Emphasis must be placed on the "healthy and believes in the sanctity of marriage." That the woman's in church is not any guarantee that she's going to have an appropriate view of marriage. As I've noted before, some of the worst marital relationships I've witnessed were between practicing Christian church-going folk.
Also, make sure she doesn't think "sanctity of marriage" means she can do whatever she wants because you vowed to stay married "until death do you part."
tmink the church is where the religious women are, but mnany of them have issues of sexuality to deal with which will kill a marriage dead if not addressed.
moral values are one thing, and important, but all the other values have ot be there also.
no one can tell me that just because a woman believes in god, she won`t cut your balls off if she feels like it, in fact she might find a few passages from the old testement to bolster her position.....
the media hs done a remarkable number on women, creating a narssistic monster bent on emelda marcos-like shoe collections and alimony cheques that would make ivana trump blush.
Guys guys guys! I never said a church lady was a panacea! And I agree with most of your caveats.
But part of the sanctity of marriage means that the couple made an oath to God. To us, that is completely serious and a little intimidating.
And I completely agree that church attendance alone means nothing. But women with a deep and abiding love of God and spirituality are a catch in my book.
Trey
Have you ever run across self-righteous people who you found silly TMink?
Have you experienced that feeling?
Or have you never run across people like that.
self-righteous people are silly by default.
if a person`s religious beliefs are personal and so on, why share?
anyway, regarding what`s up with men, the answer is nothing...unless you are pissed that we won`t take over the female roles you`ve recently left behind to collect assets and be "career oriented" or somesuch.
mysandry is mysandry.
Trey,
I figured that's what you meant. I just wanted to make sure there wasn't any room for misunderstanding, since there are some people who might apply that the wrong way.
dr.alistair said...
self-righteous people are silly by default.
if a person`s religious beliefs are personal and so on, why share?
I don't have much patience for self-righteous people either, but I don't necessarily equate evangelism (in the classical sense)with self-righteousness. There's plenty of self-righteous behavior to be found in the religious and the non-religious/anti-religious.
My invisible man is stronger than your invisible man.
The Pope ordered villages to be burned to the ground 500 years ago because some people didn't believe in his God. The Christians were kicking the shit out of the Moslems.
Today, an extremist Moslem leader orders planes to be flown into buildings in the land of the corrupt pagans. The year 1480 all over again, just different sides.
And everyone is deadly serious that their non-violent religion is the truth, and they are going to humiliate anyone who is a non-believer.
I just get tired of all the crap. And the people who are rubbing Jesus right in your face are the people who least act like Jesus. Jesus was humble, is the drift I get. Self-righteous religious twits are anything but.
Although I'm not a Zen Buddhist, I truly respect those people. I have met more than one Zen master because I am interested in it. They are very calm, non-bragging people. There is something there.
Christians, on the other hand, at least in the United States, can be self-righteous hypocrites that are basing their "faith" on moronic things. They are "better than you" because of their faith, which kind of goes against the whole idea of Christianity.
There isn't spiritual insight among these people, only the smug confidence that they fulfill the roles they are supposed to. As opposed to dirt like you.
Can't they just shut their mouths and do their own religious thing? Of course not, because that's not what it's about with them.
Sorry I was so smug. I guess I have issues. 8)
Trey
sorry trey.....reactionary response on my part.
my dad was a jesuit who could convince a muslim to take high mass in latin.
still react strongly against that shit some days.
and the self-righteousness of detroit redwing fans when they won back-to-back cups almost put me off steve yserman for good.
Oh, and I will promise to stop rubbing my religion in your face like I did in the first comment, um no, the second comment, nope not there either.
I guess I will just continue to not rub my religion in your face. I will also leave dealing with your apoplectic reactions to you.
Trey
You're a really cool guy, TMink.
Ern.........
renaissance lute pieces?????
Well, at least you haven't learned every Barry Manilow album by heart.
I simply do not worry abut what this guy does, thinks, cares about; nor do I concern myself similarly with what women do, want, watch etc...I do what I enjoy, what I care about and see no need to spill my views upon others in order to feel superior or believe I am better. And as for what they, the others, think of me, hey, I don't give a hoot because that is their problem and not mine.
Lukas makes some good points in her essay. But, a better question would be, "What's the matter with women and why is it so important to use force to take from men everything they can?"
Lukas points out the abuses of Title IX and other abuses in the educational system. This barely scratches the surface and she never touches the abuses in public and private employment.
Lukas says "many men happily dove in to the whirlpool of meaningless encounters and media stimulation, rather than pursue higher goals." What's the point of pursuing higher goals when they can be taken from you on the whimsy of feminism? Why work hard to have a family and a home when a woman can take that from you on a whimsy? Why strive for excellence and advancement in school or on the job when someone else will pass you based on gender, race or nationality over your performance?
Man are having a quite normal reaction to a sick society.
You are learning grasshopper.
Trey
Dadvocate, perhaps we need to better define "higher goals". What are they? If making new babies is a "higher goal", well, the world's population is exploding. This year we realize the food supply cannot keep up with global demand, disastrous affects are coming. I hardly think having children is a higher goal, but much rather contributing to a massive problem.
If a higher goal is earning lots of money, then that often doesn't improve anything but the total take of the tax man. Money doesn't necessarily bring happiness or make the world a better place. Working long hours to earn the money brings stress and the illness that goes with it.
One that doesn't have a spouse and children has more time, money and effort to bring to volunteer activities and pursuing goals that better the community. I've said on another comment section, being single doesn't promote family values but it certainly promotes community values, as I see that most of my volunteer groups are made up of single people and NOT married people with families.
"Higher goals" are different to those who are members of the Marriage Project, National Institute of Marriage.....and everyone else.
The ugly truth is that a certain type of modern woman think men exist to be their financial nigger and are quite open about it, kind of like how certain men think that of women regarding domestic chores.
The difference is that when men do it, they are condemned as sexist pigs and when women do it, they are lauded for their superior insight, thoughfulness and maturity by the popular culture.
Trey, all that face rubbing was causing some major chafing. Rough on the ol' complexion. Thanks for finally laying off. :-D
OK, OK. I just have trouble controling my aggressive impulses. I write one angry post, then it leads to another and another. I am trying to simmer down and rejoin the discussion, your honest feedback really helps.
And when I am not doing that I am always posting how great I am and what weenies everyone else is. It is a terrible habit, and will be difficult to drop.
I will try.
Trey 8)
Cham - I guess I was picturing higher goals as some sort of altruistic activity, even though one may be well compensated for it. In general, I consider doing something helpful or constructive and doing it well as a higher goal, whether you're an auto mechanic, plumer, doctor, or scientist.
Interesting about your volunteer groups. I've done volunteer work with Boy Scouts, my kids schools and such, and see lots of other parents volunteering. Maybe parents and non-parents volunteer in different places and different ways.
I never viewed having kids as a higher goal, just part of life. Being a competent, good parent isn't a higher goal either, but a duty. A truly good parent enjoys fulfilling their duty although it's painful at times.
I wonder why it is that no one ever asks whether there is something wrong with women. Perhaps the problem isn't American men but rather American women themselves. Maybe American women have become so repulsive to American men that men would rather do anything - including playing video games while living in their parents' basement - other than those things that American women want them to do as a prerequisite for being with those women. But then, that would require that women (who are behind this kind of "research") to look inward to see whether they're doing anything to make themselves desirable to American men.
Yeah, J. Bowen, that occurs to a lot of men.
But you don't get any advantage by saying it, and life goes on.
I'm getting older, and when I look back on it, every single girl I can remember has leveraged men in some way.
Not as bad as Heather Mills "leveraging" Paul McCartney, but there is a bit more time for reading novels and puttering around while the husband does the heavy lifting of earning money.
Good gig if you can get it, because you have the same lifestyle and a claim to his pension if you get divorced.
And no one will recognize what women pull - least of all men. I have heard from several women that they see the game other women play, but men just all play stupid.
br549 -
Yes, renaissance lute pieces. One problem with playing classical guitar is that none of the truly great composers (IMHO) wrote for the guitar. I also play pieces from Bach's lute suites, written for the baroque lute, an instrument somewhat different from the renaissance lute.
I assume that you're implying that I'm not heterosexual. In fact, I'm as heterosexual as can be.
I did a google looking for astute critiques of the maodern American woman from major sources and it was easier to find articles purporting to help women find better fitting brassieres than it was to find articles critical of women.
Still, I found this from England, and it supports many of the concerns mentioned here.
http://www.nosacredcows.co.uk/golden_oldies/703/whats_wrong_with_american_women.html
But few people in America believe there is much of a market for criticizing da'ladies.
Trey
Tmink: I guess you missed the thousands of articles about us evil women who are too independent, too assertive, too aggressive, too much self-esteem, too career-minded, too fat, too choosy(see Helen post below), not submissive enough and that we are all loose sexual hussies busily giving away the milk and not demanding men buy the cow.
The only thing that is changing is that in the last few months/years writers have found a new way to sell books and articles, they've found another profitable subject....bashing single men. Better batten down the hatches and get used to it, you single guys are in for a long unpleasant ride.
Trey - that's a great article. My favorite lines:
It was less like a romantic encounter than an extremely tough job interview. By the time the cheque arrived I was surprised they hadn't asked for a urine sample.
Been there.
When American women complain that there's a shortage of eligible men--and Leah McLaren is no exception--what they mean is there's a shortage of tall, unattached, rich men who still have their own hair.
Yep.
No man is held to possess any intrinsic value--we're all just the sum of our assets.
Of course.
Perhaps the biggest difference between English and North American women is that English women just seem to laugh a lot more. Wherever I look in London, I see women throwing their heads back and roaring with laughter; it's like some wonderful, Hogarthian pageant. In New York, by contrast, the women always looked anxious and uptight, their spirits as undernourished as their bodies.
Hahahahaha.
Cham - excellent point on the books and articles. Women are almost the sole market for articles like this. Men buy books and magazines about sports, fitness, cars, hunting, woodworking, etc. Women eat up the women good - man bad stuff. Gives them someone to blame for all their problems and absolves them of any responsibility.
The WSJ has an op-ed by Hymowitz today based on the book: http://on.wsj.com/hw4xiS
I read the WSJ op-ed piece. I'll quote the last paragraph:
Relatively affluent, free of family responsibilities, and entertained by an array of media devoted to his every pleasure, the single young man can live in pig heaven—and often does. Women put up with him for a while, but then in fear and disgust either give up on any idea of a husband and kids or just go to a sperm bank and get the DNA without the troublesome man. But these rational choices on the part of women only serve to legitimize men's attachment to the sand box. Why should they grow up? No one needs them anyway. There's nothing they have to do.
They might as well just have another beer.
A year ago I would have agreed with Ms. Hymowitz. I suspect her research at this point is a year old with the editing, book publication and setting up that all-important publicity schedule. A lot has begun to change in the last 12 months.
I do a lot of volunteering. I have noticed a pronounced change. More young single men seem to be getting involved in volunteer efforts that interest them. Volunteers are usually older singles both men and women, and young single women. It seems that just recently young single men are really getting involved with organizing and willingly taking a leadership role, working with established leadership and taking volunteer objectives seriously.
Volunteer efforts serve 2 purposes, 1) To better the community 2) To give volunteers the ability to get out of their comfort zones and do activities that aren't being offered to them at their jobs. One may be interested in web design but have no experience. They may find a volunteer web design position that will allow them to design and take credit for a project so they can place the project on their resume as a solid web design skillset. Young women have been taking advantage of these gigs for years, the young men are just waking up to its possibilities.
I think young men are sometimes taught to never to do anything for free, which is why they have stuck to the beer and video games for so long. However, if they ever all do come out of the basement I think they are going to have a lot to offer.
Hymowitz sounds like a to the bone man-hater. And a hater of video games. What's the deal with that? I haven't played a video game, except for a minute or two, in 2-3 years. Some of my younger, single and happily married co-workers do. One of them brews beer too, just so he can have another one I guess.
Cham - I think young men are less likely to do volunteer work because it is more important they do paid work. That's how they put themselves in a situation to find a mate and have a family.
I'm glad to hear you extolling the virtues of volunteer work. In 2007 my children's school system of one elementary school, one intermediate school, one middle school and one high school enjoyed 52,000 hours of volunteer service. You can bet that that really helped the kids.
Volunteer work is an addendum to the paid work one already does. Internships are unpaid full time work. Internships often lead to paid work, which is why so many young women have embraced these springboards to good paying jobs. Internships shouldn't be viewed lightly either.
I was "implying" if anything, your love for lute pieces. It is at least better than Barry Manilow. I am not classically trained, but I have been playing guitar off and on for 45 years myself. I am diving head first into theory again now, as I lost interest in formal training way back in the "rock star" days. I'm nuts about jazz, as far as playing goes. I can listen to almost anything. Well, except maybe lute music. Sorry......
It is at least better than Barry Manilow.
Is anything worse than Barry Manilow music? Barry Manilow, he writes the sludge.
Is it more effective to kill sinners by drowning in a planet-wide flood or by making them listen to Barry Manilow music?
I'm still trying to figure out who needs Hymowitz.
Br549, oft times with these writers who are desperate to sell books they are just foaming at the mouth willing to write or do anything that will put gold in their pockets. Take a good look at the title, it has all the elements, let's break it down. "Manning Up", those words make men chafe. It implies the less pain a man let's himself feel, the less he allows himself to express his feelings and talk about challenges with his friends and peers the better. You just get back up on that horse and ride it, bud, even IF you are going down the wrong path with the wrong people.
Now let's move on to the second part. "How the Rise of Women", I'll stop there for the moment. That implies that women are moving up in the world, at the cost of men's power position. Women are gaining power, and not staying in their previous submissive spot. That is causing more than a few men bristle. Nobody likes to lose power.
Now on to the last part, "Turning Men into Boys", that's like the cherry on the cake. Men are no longer men but little scaredy boys. That doesn't sound so go. Men/boys are regressing and ceding control, according to the book title.
Now all we have is a few paragraphs from the WSG, but I read them and also watched the associated video. According to Hymowitz herself, it's not women that are the cause of some of the changes but the new business economy. The way we do business and the way we do work is different than 50 years ago. That isn't new information. But if Hymowitz titled her book, "The New Economy has changed business roles for the genders" she wouldn't sell any books.
Having said all that in the above post, what I have found is that usually in a pile of dung there is often one or two nuggets that stay with me that give pause for thought.
Hymowitz says:
Women put up with him for a while, but then in fear and disgust either give up on any idea of a husband and kids or just go to a sperm bank and get the DNA without the troublesome man.
I would have to differ with her about the sperm bank. I know of only one single woman that has gone down that road. However, I would like to know where Hymowitz got the idea that women are giving up on the idea of husband and kids. I'd have to agree that there is a growing number of women, myself included, that realize that today's men way too much work. Did she actually do the research that proves this? Or is this her just writing whatever she wants to sell more books?
@Cham: Your last two posts are far more insightful than your critics on this blog will ever give you credit for. I know this because I worked in publishing for over a decade (in NYC).
This worthless book of misandry is all about hype and money. Truth and objectivity are nowhere in sight.
After going through the article and book, Hymowitz has a point about the modern economy but puts the blame on the wrong party. To succeed in a "respectable job", so not including manual labor that one can start practicing after high school, a man has to spend until at least age 22 in college (often 23 or 24), then spend another few years either climbing the low rungs or making a startup work. Men in these positions aren't considered marriage material by the Hymowitz's of the world, so what else are they going to do for fun?
The smart girls are seeing past immediate lack of success, picking their mates at 23-25, and sticking with them to create a viable family. The success-worshippers, OTOH, are now finding that they've set their standards too high to find a partner their own age until they've lost most of their fertility. For some reason, the blame for this falls on men.
The other issue is that these women are seeking a marriage without added value because the partners don't have complementary skills. If workaholic lawyer dad marries workaholic lawyer mom, then what new skills does the partner bring to the table besides an opposite set of genitals? Workaholic lawyer dad doesn't want to marry workaholic lawyer mom, because she doesn't bring wifely skills to the table. But workaholic lawyer mom won't allow herself to marry anyone other than workaholic lawyer dad, stay-at-home fathers are a step too far and not worthy of respect. Again, the blame falls on men for some reason.
Edgehopper, great post with good ideas.
Trey
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