The Washington Times print edition picked up an excerpt from my post on angry women in their Culture Briefs section. That post and the one on the effects of women's anger on men seems to have struck a nerve in many people--particularly male readers. Many of you have emailed to tell me your experiences with the anger of female bosses, love interests and family members that have left permanent scars. There is a book in there somewhere....Would you buy it?
posted by Helen at 6:16 AM
42 Comments:
No, but I'd I'd scour the internet for excerpts or reviews. :O
It's a double-edged sword, this internet
No, but only because I have a clue as to the ending. But I'll tell ya', it's a book the ought to be written AND published.
Rusty.
Dr. Helen,
My husband and I talked all weekend about your post on the effect that women's ager has on men. It really did strike a nerve. I appreciated the honesty and rawness of the comments, especially those from the men.
I would buy the book because I love to read and interested in anything to do with human emotions. Anger and how to effectively deal with it is a subject that is evidently very needed. So many people live with silent pain. It is so sad. Thanks for that post!
It certainly sounds like it could be interesting. I like the topic, in the sense that I've never seen anyone bring it up before. We hear quite a lot about the ways in which men mistreat women, but not much about the other side of the coin.
It could also help some guys who have a difficult time getting over it. I've always found it best, after a bad experience, to get over it, learn, and move on. Dwelling on the experience and harboring resentment for having been wronged seems like a bad strategy.
I am happy to report that I no longer need the book! But I would recommend it to patients on a weekly basis.
Trey
No, because I happen to think anger appropriate or inappropriate, from anyone, not just women, can affect anyone in a negative way.
I think the focus on women's anger as something special and extra-damaging may be mildly interesting; but while I'm not opposed to anyone discussing any subject, I also don't think its particularly useful or healthy, especially when used to excuse or explain one's own conduct.
"There is a book in there somewhere....Would you buy it?"
Only if it had an index as comprehensive as "Legalizing Misandry-Nathanson/Young.
Otherwise, I too would only seek out
free blurbs/reviews/excerpts.
I probably would. Almost certainly.
Helen,
I e-mailed you with my experiences. A couple of further observations. Anger is a problem that affects men and women. Society has focused on the problems of male anger, but under the banner of "empowerment" has encouraged women to cultivate their anger and express it without reservation.
Another angle to this is to ask what effect women's anger has on women. Being overly angry is not a psychologically healthy state of mind. It eats away at the person with the anger as much as it does the people towards which it is expressed.
I'd be interested in such a book, I think it would add some balance to the "gender wars" discussions.
I don't think that women's anger is "special and ultra damaging" however, I do believe that it is expressed differently than men's anger. It does have an effect on people, and affects relationships with the opposite sex.
I think that understanding how female anger manifests itself can help women to recognize it, and men to understand it so perhaps not permit it to affect their relationships with women.
It would be an interesting book, imo.
I think lots of people might buy it. I think half of your buyers will be women looking for a little insight as well. Men might be a little embarrassed to purchase it - but that is still a great title.
I'd be less interested in the psyc stats than the cultural aspect and insight regarding anger and its effects.
As a starting point, try "The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands" by Laura Schlessinger.
It's spot on.
I might buy it if it was expanded a bit. The reason I say this is that my job involves failed marriages, and there are certain patterns and behaviors I see over and over and over. I need to know the why behind various stimuli and responses. One of the reasons I come to this site is because I’m looking for answers about the behavior I see. Your post about BPD was very enlightening, for example.
What I want to know is why are some people unable to stand up to PA folks, and what it would take for them to deal with such people so that their lives aren’t so miserable. I see people spending decades with people who make them miserable (in more ways than just PA behavior), and I keep thinking life is too short for that crap. If your book focuses on recognizing these people and their behavior and strategies for dealing with them--and by dealing with I mean neutralizing them--or avoiding them, I would want to read it.
Here is what I have noticed: a lot of those on the receiving end of unjustified anger (not just here, in the cases at work, too) react by giving in. And they seem to think that bending backwards for that person will make them magically become nicer. That’s what I don’t get: why do people think this? It never works (or maybe it does, I only see the failed marriages after all).
I didn’t realize PA behavior was a woman’s thing, because the first time I learned of it a man was being diagnosed with it. I simply classified it as being a jerk. If this truly is disproportionately a woman’s defect, then you definitely have something there. I think I’m a little wary about a book from that perspective (as opposed to a strategy perspective), because it seems that these days, spelling out a given defect is used as an excuse for bad behavior as in, “Oh, sorry, I’m PA! Can’t help myself,” and then it’s like the latest victim-fad rather than a jumping off point for self-reform. I'm not sure how you can avoid that side effect, though.
--Tyrian Purple
Sarahw wrote: "I also don't think its particularly useful or healthy, especially when used to excuse or explain one's own conduct."
Ahh, that is a different book entirely! That is the book titled "It is all her fault: Why all women are angry bitches and there is nothing us innocent men can do about it."
Hmmm, not at all what Helen was suggesting. Wonder why you got so confused? Did you write "How to blame men for absolutely everything: Twist everything anyone says about them!"
Or are you just very defensive about this issue and have trouble noting what people actually write because of your strong, unresolved, angry feelings about men?
Or maybe it is something else entirely! Makes you go "hmmm" don't it?
Trey
I've always had the impression (naive, of course; I'm not a mental health "professional") that women have developed a particularly good psychological defense mechanism to balance the fact that their male mates are bigger/faster/stronger, and that they have a special talent for inflicting emotional pain that is as destructive as physical abuse, yet falls just short of provoking actual violence. I've also come to believe that, as a matter of political correctness, this phenomenon has not been adequately studied. The feminists out there will tell you that men are able as women (well, the feminists will actually tell you that men are more able) when it comes to inflicting emotional abuse.
Based on my personal experience with women (including with my first wife, to whom I'm still married), I continue to believe these things.
But I'd be happy to be proven wrong, given some credible research.
Rusty
Heck, yeah. For . . . you know . . . my friend.
Well, nobody could hurt me like my wife, because I love nobody like my wife. I need her, so I am vulnerable to her. Part of her power comes from my wanting her approval. Since she is a healthy, loving person, I am safe despite my vulnerability.
Trey
and since the laws are becoming very specific, in what it termed abuse, so even if she is violent towards you, you cannot defend yourself, incase you get arrested for self defence.
the presumption of guilt is now aimed at all men.
http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=2741047&page=1 check this out, it may have been mentioned here before, but the presumption is man is really to blame, he must have done something.
You're not even…" She pauses and moves her face even closer to his. "Hello…Hello!" she screams. At times her rage boils over to physical abuse: she pulls the young man's hair, slaps the side of his head, and beats him with a rolled-up newspaper.
Fortunately, the troubling scene isn't real. The abusive woman and her boyfriend are actors, hired by "Primetime" for a hidden camera experiment
One after another, passersby witnessed the abusive scene… and kept right on going.
The reaction of another woman, Lynda, was stunning. As our actress continued to heap abuse on her make-believe boyfriend, she walked by the scene and pumped her fist in a show of sisterly solidarity.
"Good for you. You Go, Girl!" is how Lynda recalls her reaction.
"I was thinking he probably did something really bad," she said. "Maybe she caught him cheating or something like that…and [it] made her lose it and slap him in the face. I reacted like, 'Yes. Woman power.'"
it seems like to most men that these women get a free pass, they can do no wrong and somehow its all the mans fault and they are afraid, more so if there are children
Interesting recent comment by a French politician--said he expects the female candidate, Ms Royal, to get the votes of large numbers of women as "revenge" against the husbands and fathers of these voters.
REVENGE is a pretty strong word, even by comparison with some of the stuff discussed here.
I also wonder about non-western & traditional societies...does this kind of anger exist among large numbers of African and Hindu women? Were there lots of Sioux Indian women who felt the need for revenge against their husbands and brothers?
Also think it's important to note that the anger levels have also been going up among American MEN, at least from what I've observed.
anon 1:50...what do you mean by "PA behavior?" Is this some standard psycholigical acronym?
armchair - that is shocking - especially the Go Girl! comment. However, I think we would have to know the size of the man before we could pass judgement on that.
While she may have been a raging bitch - slapping his head and hitting him with a newspaper would probably not prompt me to call the police, assuming he looked fit enough to defend himself.
However, I have to agree that if I saw a man doing the same thing I would most likely dial 911.
I realize that just proves your point, but I think that because women are generally not as strong as men, they are less able to protect themselves from the abuse were it to escalate to pushing, shoving or punches.
Now - if she was actually punching or hitting him a stick, etc. then my reaction would be different. Also- or he was a frail thing and she on steroids.
That's not necessarily wrong or right - but there is a certain logic to it.
Becky
to put it in another light - if she been threatening (but not hurting him) with a knife - I think he would have received support.
A woman being slapped by a man who appears to be out of control seems to be in immediate danger should it escalate. In a sense she is in a similar position to a woman waving a knife or gun at a man.
oops I meant:
she is in a similar position to a a man if a woman were waving a knife or gun at him.
And think also about this - a woman would not get a pass were she doing that to a child. Size matters.
There you have it, guys: size matters.
Yep. I'd buy it. I'd probably be at least as apt to gift a few copies to the thicker skinned women in my life.
Subtlety be damned ;)
If the book were a series of personal anecdotes, probably not.
Those go on forever and get repetitive pretty quick.
On the other hand, there may be a shortage of hard information on the subject, so a book not depending on a raft of personal anecdotes would be pretty short.
Tmink - When I said "I also don't think its particularly useful or healthy, especially when used to excuse or explain one's own conduct", I was including the women.
To be very candid, I think the PA stuff must be reversed in my house. I make a real effort to be direct - though I respect and deeply love my husband, he is often unwilling to be direct. Maybe the problem is men want to be approved of?
I'm guessing everybody does, but I seem to be less worried about saying I don't have time to pick up the kitty litter. Go figure.
I had a co-worker who introduced me to the book "Find Your Inner Bitch". It actually had some pretty decent advice. Things like, when you get some pushy-pig at work who tries to bully you, you simply respond, "I don't think so".
It leaves them nothing to argue with. I used it many times to great effect.
I can't remember if any of the other information was particularly bitchy or not, but that was a good piece of advice.
I'd buy such a book.
I doubt any man could write such a book and get away with it ... He'd just be accused of misogyny and/or irrelavancy, but a woman could write such a book. Oh, she'd be accused of misogyny too, but nowhere near as strongly. People would listen to her.
"While she may have been a raging bitch - slapping his head and hitting him with a newspaper would probably not prompt me to call the police, assuming he looked fit enough to defend himself."
This is the problem in a nutshell. Women being physically abusive towards men is tolerated in ways that the reverse isn't.
Say this woman finally provokes the guy to hauling off and smacking her. If you hadn't seen the womans abusive behavior, you would call the police by assuming his violence is "worse" simply because he is a male, but if it is one sided coming from the female, you shrug your shoulders and make it the mans problem for letting it go on?
Huh?!
I agree with the point you are making. But I guess I'm just making a cautionary note. But I'm not sure that we want to make a rule of thumb where we allow the phrase, "she deserved it".
I know that is not your point!! I don't even mean to imply that I somehow think that was your point in any way shape or form!! In fact I'm making the assumption that you agree with that wholeheartedly.
But I think in general, you can't ignore the plight of (perhaps) millions of women who are smacked around and beaten on a daily basis - just because, on a much more rare occurence, a guy who was truly defending himself against an abusive female got hauled off jail and had to explain himself - and maybe even got railroaded by the system.
Does the system show bias against men in these cases - yes! Is that unfair and attempts should be made to recognize that female abuse against men is a problem? Yes.
But all things considered, I think the concept that you should NEVER hit a woman is a very good an necessary taboo.
I'm not disagreeing with you - I'm just saying it is clearly an area where, for the sake of millions of abused women in this world, you want to tread very, very carefully.
A thoughtful anon wrote: "But all things considered, I think the concept that you should NEVER hit a woman is a very good an necessary taboo."
I have not hit a female since I can remember. I do recall being 12 and an 11 year old neighbor girl was pushing and cussing me, but I did not know what to do. It probably did not help that she was cute!
But now, the only time I would get violent is to protect me or my family from an outside attack. And in that context, I doubt I would have any gender considerations at all. Why should I? I would only be acting in response to a legit threat against the safety of my family. The gender of the attacker is not a worthy consideration: Only thoughts of how to effectively and safely neutralize the threat are germain at that time.
Trey
tmink-
But now, the only time I would get violent is to protect me or my family from an outside attack. And in that context, I doubt I would have any gender considerations at all. Why should I? I would only be acting in response to a legit threat against the safety of my family. The gender of the attacker is not a worthy consideration: Only thoughts of how to effectively and safely neutralize the threat are germain at that time.
You're right. If, say a middle-aged woman made a threat against you it wouldn't matter. Her life isn't more important than yours. Her family isn't more important than your family or future family.
"you can't ignore the plight of (perhaps) millions of women who are smacked around and beaten on a daily basis - just because, on a much more rare occurence, a guy who was truly defending himself against an abusive female got hauled off jail and had to explain himself"
Millions of women? Well, maybe in Pakistan. ;-)
But seriously, how do you know that in domestic abuse cases the man is only rarely the innocent party? In an attempt to address the assumptions implicit in current domestic abuse policy, a researcher got to thinking: "If the problem is largely due to male violence, then we should see significantly lower levels of domestic abuse in lesbian couples. And if the problem is one of male sexist attitudes towards women then we should see lower levels of violence in gay couples." And yet, when the researcher looked at the uniform crime statistics published by the Department of Justice, they showed very similar abuse rates for heterosexual, gay, and lesbian couples. Which suggests that maybe the problem is not Eeeeevil Men but just the flawed nature of humanity.
Sadly, I have been personally acquainted with feminists who proudly described themselves as female chauvinists and saw nothing wrong with demanding the right to denigrate men however they wished while reserving the right to use violence on men who expressed opinions they disliked.
"But all things considered, I think the concept that you should NEVER hit a woman is a very good an[sic] necessary taboo."
There is an implicit imbalance in that concept since it gives misbehaving women an overly wide license that, unfortunately, increasing numbers seem to be taking advantage of. The claim of privileged treatment because some other person in some other time and place suffered an injustice is an argument that reduces to absurdity almost instantaneously. As such, a more balanced guide would be that a man should never hit a woman UNLESS SHE HITS HIM (or someone he has a duty - moral or otherwise - to defend) FIRST, but even that is a far too simplistic to cover a large number of cases.
Is it just me? Courts used to employ what was known as the 'reasonable person' test - what would a reasonable person do in the circumstances - but it seems increasingly to be being replaced by the 'unreasonable feminist' test.
Mark - do you think that the average woman can successfully compete against males of equal size and weight in boxing and wrestling tournaments?
To deny the horrible problem of abuse against women is purposely naive to make your point.
Let's just agree that the courts need to use the reasonable person argument and to take female on male abuse more seriously.
Women's anger! What a new discovery!
Run with the concept Dr. Helen!
It is certainly book-worthy material.
I would buy it, depending upon how much cleavage you choose to display on the fold-over backjacket -- author's pic.
Seriously.
Of course, your illuminating logic would also figure into my decision to purchase.
Your logic, being the obviously larger factor, would be the deciding quotient, of course.
"I agree with the point you are making. But I guess I'm just making a cautionary note. But I'm not sure that we want to make a rule of thumb where we allow the phrase, "she deserved it".
I know that is not your point!! I don't even mean to imply that I somehow think that was your point in any way shape or form!! In fact I'm making the assumption that you agree with that wholeheartedly.
But I think in general, you can't ignore the plight of (perhaps) millions of women who are smacked around and beaten on a daily basis - just because, on a much more rare occurence, a guy who was truly defending himself against an abusive female got hauled off jail and had to explain himself - and maybe even got railroaded by the system."
It happens more often than you think. And nowhere do you see me argueing that physical assault is OK, except in self defense.
But my original point remains unaddressed: That violent behavior not tolerated in men is seen as acceptable when perpetrated by women.
just because, on a much more rare occurence, a guy who was truly defending himself against an abusive female got hauled off jail and had to explain himself - and maybe even got railroaded by the system."
I worked for a counselor who contracted for the county doing domestic battery evaluations among other things. That's actually a lot less rare than you'd think.
Amy K.
the book would have to be more than men well bitching
it wold either have to have real psychological insight on the problem and causes or concreate advice for men (or women) who are the targets of passive aggression and are backed by their equally angry peers.
oh, and it would have to have a blank cover edition so you cold read it without the women knowing what it was.
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