My hometown paper, the Knoxville News-Sentinel, interviewed myself and others about the gruesome Lillelid murder that took place ten years ago this week:
Read the rest.
Forensic psychologist Helen Smith of Knoxville spent a lot of time looking at the case because of her interest in learning "why kids kill." Her aim is to prevent troubled teens from endangering the lives of innocent victims like the Lillelids. She filmed a documentary called "Six" that focused on the group's lives back in Kentucky with a particular focus on Cornett, who was often portrayed as the group's ringleader.
Smith points out that many factors may have contributed to the tragedy, including a mental health system that largely ignored Cornett's psychological problems and what the youths perceived as a hypocritical Christian morality at play in their community.
Cornett, for instance, had been hospitalized for 11 days due to mental problems but was kicked out of the facility when her government health care benefits stopped, even though she'd been classified as "a danger to herself and others," Smith explained.
"She was already violent, but nobody gave a damn," Smith said.
Read the rest.
posted by Helen at 7:35 AM
34 Comments:
I had forgotten about this till now. What a very sad and tragic story this is. Dr. Helen, I do so admire your work and your strength...and for the ability to look deeper into issues.
"hypocritical Christian morality"
An unquestionable truth but hardly a justification for murder.
I've spent some time in the town where the kids came from a few years ago. There were chalk pentagrams here and there.
"they feel they they're treated like dogs'
Ever consider the possibility that practices such as 'pulling a baby halfway out the vagina, then stick a tube in the nabe of the baby's neck (whose head is still inside the vagina to make it all legal) then suck out the baby's brain as to collaspe the skull' or 'using sterilized vacumn cleaners to rid 'mistakes' or hearing mothers openly express to their children that having children will ruin any change of finding one's self, much less having a life' etc this ad nauseum sisterhood feminism, just might have something to do our youth beoming so vicious and violent?
One does not have to believe in God to understand just how barbaric is our modern day Medeas.
I am a female, 45 years of age who once thoguht the above referenced practices were acceptable all in the name of sisterhood however, as I have aged I myself often become enraged at the viciousness of what evil my sisterhood has created; She must destroy all that is good and decent in order to break the glass ceiling.
I was difficult for me to look in the mirror and recognize that I once helped the sisterhood create such horror; self-reflection is something lost to those dwelling in the age of post-modern anti-enlightenment.
Dave F.,
I never mentioned anything about justification of the murders. There is nothing to justify them--perhaps contribution, then, is not the right word either. A murder where 17 shots were used to kill the family is an example of overkill, indicative of rage or anger. My question then is, what caused the anger? For if the root of the rage can be known, then maybe, it can lead to ending the motivation of that person to kill. Again, not for justification, but to save innocent people from the wrath of those who inflict harm.
Of course mental health "professionals" have an obligation to prevent the creeping hysteria that occurs after cases like this. Because morons will use superficial things like music, video games, etc. to try to claim everyone is a potential killer. Especially if they can profit from it or damage groups or individuals that they dislike.
There was a law and order episode that I thought well explained the mindset of these rage murders.
It was about a little girl who killed a little boy. I don't have a good enough memory to remember the details but the just of it was that she was in a bad situation where she hated (i think it was her mother's mean boyfriend). She hated him so much she wished she wanted to hurt him, but she was too small and unable to do so. But the little boy was more her size and it made her feel good to hurt him.
Helen, you've probably seen it already, but if not I suggest you find it and watch it. It really nails it on the head.
I'm no expert, but it seems to me that all of the serial killers have similar stories. As children they felt helpless rage that somehow consumed them to the point where they found surrogate(s) to vent it on.
While I'm sympathetic to their tragic lives, I lose ALL sympathy for their plight once the learn to enjoy the taste of blood. At that point they are rabid dogs and no matter how much you wish you didn't have to put them down, there is simply no other choice.
Keep up the good work Dr. Helen. Hopefully there is a way to identify these children filled with rage and do something before they learn to love killing.
becky
Posting here just reminded me of something that happened to me about 20 years ago. I worked in a hospital doing dietary assessments and as such I read many, many, patient histories through out the course of my time. Once a week I charted in the little psych ward which was pretty low security. Most patients were free to walk about and I could talk to them - they had psych problems but they had to be coping at a decent level to be in this ward.
One day I was reading a chart of a 15 or 16 year old male. Even without expertise, I could see this kid had waaay too many red flags of a serial killer popping up all over the page. I won't give details, who knows who reads in here. Anyway he had tortured animals, loved fire, tried to burn down his foster family's home (with the mother) in it and more. I don't remember or wish to share all the details, but needless to say you didn't need a degree in psychology to see this was a serial killer in the making.
So anyways, I had to go talk to him. I found his room number and walked in his room, somewhat curious to see what this bad boy would like like. But when I saw him it shocked me greatly and ran a cold chill up my spine. The reason it shocked me was because he was the most normal, charming, handsome young man you could imagine.
About three months later, I was driving around town and I saw him, sitting in the sunshine on a lawn with a group of teen girls. They were all laughing, having a good time. I just shook my head. He was so handsome, charming. I worried for the safety of those girls - but there was nothing I could do.
It made wonder how often we get up close and personal with evil and never have a clue.
Anyway. Just sharing on a rainy afternoon.
Becky
Becky,
Most killers look like anyone else, in fact, serial killers often blend in and try to be normal as part of their MO for getting people to be willing to go places with them, like good looking Ted Bundy with his use of an arm cast or broken leg to attract women who would help him load groceries.
I do want to point out that the motivations of serial killers and mass killers are different. Serial killers kill generally one person at a time with a cooling off period in-between--typically they are sexual killings, whereas mass killers kill three or more people in a single incident, usually for reasons of revenge etc.(like Columbine or work place shootings) and a climactic conclusion to their feelings of rage. Mass killers often, but not always kill themselves at the scene of their crime.
Dr. Helen, my apologies. I didn't mean to imply that you were trying to justify the murders; I only meant that ruminating on the issue of hypocrisy and Christian "morality" is a useful exercise.
Most killers look like anyone else That's not good news!
In a different job, I learned that alcoholics are very good liars. I have a great sixth sense and I am a better than average judge of body language, however I would have to say that often, when writing up reports in the wee hours of the night, I would notice that I didn't have an actual answer to an important question. After awhile, I learned that meant I would surely find some sort of a serious problem there. Alcoholics just seemed to be better skilled on manipulating the focus and keeping my suspicion level completely at bay - probably because their lifestyle allowed them lots of practice.
I suppose that is the same with killers. They are forced by their lifestyle to learn how to act in ways that will not raise suspicion and after awhile they get very good at it.
Becky
I agree that the work of trying to understand the root of the rage and anger, is needed. Unfortunatley though, there are so many troubled teens out there, I wonder if there are enough people like yourself, Dr.Helen, that study this in order to prevent such horrific acts.
becky-
One day I was reading a chart of a 15 or 16 year old male. Even without expertise, I could see this kid had waaay too many red flags of a serial killer popping up all over the page. I won't give details, who knows who reads in here. Anyway he had tortured animals, loved fire, tried to burn down his foster family's home (with the mother) in it and more. I don't remember or wish to share all the details, but needless to say you didn't need a degree in psychology to see this was a serial killer in the making.
That's pretty funny, because even the experts and competent, credible clinicians with experience in this area can't identify "serial killers in the making". The phenomena is quite rare and nearly impossible to identify beforehand.
There ARE, however, a lot of nutty people, many of whom tend to be women, that claim they have this remarkable talent. Simple statistics will tell you the vast majority of the time these people with this amazing "talent" are wrong. It's a good thing the majority of them aren't authorized to to anything to anyone, because they would be harming a lot of innocent people.
Which makes this earlier statement by you pretty alarming:
While I'm sympathetic to their tragic lives, I lose ALL sympathy for their plight once the learn to enjoy the taste of blood. At that point they are rabid dogs and no matter how much you wish you didn't have to put them down, there is simply no other choice.
Uh, I think you better stick to providing "dietary assessments" for those that ask for them, and not to identifying who needs to be "put down". Especially since even the experts agree it is close to impossible to identify those individuals beforehand.
if the root of the rage can be known
This presumes that its the fault of someone or something.
Given the variation among humans, it would not be surprising if some were simply wired wrong right from conception.
There are millions of people all over the globe who suffer far worse treatment and situations than most of these killers, yet they are not killers.
The arrow of causality can point in either direction.
purple avenger,
I tend to agree with you. A victimization mentality plays a huge part here. Blaming someone or something for the things that have happend in your life. We all can play that game but ultimately the choices we make in our lives are free will choices...it really is up to us what we want to do with our lives. I agree, many suffer far greater and yet they don't CHOSE to
ciminality. Very good point here, thanks!
That's pretty funny, because even the experts and competent, credible clinicians with experience in this area can't identify "serial killers in the making". The phenomena is quite rare and nearly impossible to identify beforehand.
oh please. I wager that a bigger problem is clinicians who latch on to the latest fad or study and .. no matter how much it defies common sense ... and then seek to condenscend to those whom dare challenge their cherished beliefs no matter how clear and present the danger. If you have to pull snotty rank to make your point you probably don't have a very good one to begin with.
The child had already tortured animals and HAD ATTEMPTED TO MURDER HIS FOSTER MOTHER BY STARTING A FIRE. He did other things which I will not list. But you know, boys will be boys.
I think the biggest problem that we have is that too often these killers are let go by those who want to believe in them or just can't get a grip on the fact that children can also be vicious killers. It's not just a sad mishap when someone is tortured/murdered by a sadistic killer.
And yes, once they kill, I have only sympathy for their victims. Good for you if your sympathy stays with the killer - it's a free country.
oh please. I wager that a bigger problem is clinicians who latch on to the latest fad or study and .. no matter how much it defies common sense ... and then seek to condenscend to those whom dare challenge their cherished beliefs no matter how clear and present the danger. If you have to pull snotty rank to make your point you probably don't have a very good one to begin with.
I see. When someone points to the experts and literature in academia, practice, and law enforcement they are pulling "snotty rank". I'm sorry, I'll consult some dieticians next time.
Then you appeal to "common sense". Common sense only work when things are simple. When things aren't simple it can be very wrong.
The child had already tortured animals and HAD ATTEMPTED TO MURDER HIS FOSTER MOTHER BY STARTING A FIRE. He did other things which I will not list. But you know, boys will be boys.
Granted, if true that is some bad stuff. Even though you have two corners of the old "homicidal triangle" that FBI profilers used to use, it still doesn't mean the kid is going to become a serial killer. And that is still very hard, if not impossible to predict.
And who said I don't have sympathy for the victims? I do. But I also have sympathy for the innocent people that would get caught up and harmed by arrogant, misguided people that think they can predict the future, predict who will become a serial killer, etc. got to go around trying to "prevent" crimes by doing things to innocent people.
Hey genius, maybe you should have actually read my original post before you got on your high horse and charged. You have set up so many straw men here I'm losing track.
Strawman #1
When someone points to the experts and literature in academia, practice, and law enforcement they are pulling "snotty rank"
Seeing as how you you did not point to any literature or facts, I think my comment was a fair assessment.
Straw man #2. RE: common sense. It really doesn't take a PHD in Psyc to understand that arson issues, torturing animals and attempted murder made this child...how shall we say "high risk". But you were so eager to mount your high horse you missed it, didn't ya, Sparky. LOL! Or maybe I'm wrong, perhaps it takes a PHD in Psyc NOT to see that as a problem. Besides, do you even have any credentials? I suspect you don't.
Stawman #3. I did not say he was a serial killer. I said he had serial killer flags popping up - that there were facts and I didn't list all of them on the slim chance it could identify him. Arson, animal torture, attempted murder - do you need more? I suppose we could haggle over term "serial killer". Pretty petty stuff when the point of my whole post was how absolutely normal looking he was.
Stawman #4. Sympathy for the victims. You really need glasses or reading instruction. My comments re: "put down" were only directed to someone who had already killed. And you really ran with what you thought I meant by "put down". I suppose the term "tasted blood" confused you. Perhaps I meant chicken or beef blood left on his dinner plate, right? I'm sorry to have confused you.
Before you go off about arrogant, miguided people perhaps you should take the time to read and respond to the arguments presented, rather than go off and create your own.
Do you always go off half-cocked like this - swinging away at strawmen that don't exist? Jeesh - maybe you need to up your meds just a tad.
Becky
We're having a controversy in our state (Texas) that might be of interest relating to what to do about young people who have a history of violent acts, in connection with the juvenile justice system.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9248771
There's a racial element to the story, however. Or at least, the appearance of one. The fifteen year old has been released. I'm curious about the 14 yo white girl, though, who tried to kill her mother. Why did she get only probation?
Anonymous 12:04:
My guess is that rather than racism (or maybe in addition to?) it is "statism." Crimes against schools, government etc. seem to be punished more harshly. Honestly, the state doesn't give a damn if a kid is violent towards their parent. It happens frequently, and regardless of race, very little is done, whether the juvenile is black or white.
Becky-
Seeing as how you you did not point to any literature or facts, I think my comment was a fair assessment.
No, you implied that you could identify this person as a "serial killer in the making". I stated that the experts don't think this is possible to do with much accuracy. Serial killers are a rare phenomenon.
It really doesn't take a PHD in Psyc to understand that arson issues, torturing animals and attempted murder made this child...how shall we say "high risk".
I acknowledged the individual in question committed some bad acts. But that still doesn't mean you can predict whether he will become a serial killer, because you can't.
I did not say he was a serial killer. I said he had serial killer flags popping up - that there were facts and I didn't list all of them on the slim chance it could identify him. Arson, animal torture, attempted murder - do you need more? I suppose we could haggle over term "serial killer". Pretty petty stuff when the point of my whole post was how absolutely normal looking he was.
No, you implied that you could identify him as a "serial killer in the making". You can't. That is the topic of our exchange.
Jeesh - maybe you need to up your meds just a tad.
Sorry, don't need meds. I definitely think you should stick to nutrition or whatever it is you claim to do.
I have read your post and decided it is not worth my time to respond.
Becky
Helen, I think you're generally spot on about the statism. I just heard the girl interviewed on a radio station today, though. She is saying that she "did nothing wrong." That might have been a difference as well when it came time for the judge to decide a penalty. If the parents as well couldn't see that their daughter had done anything wrong, then it might have been that the judge figured that the only place the girl might learn acceptable behavior might be juvenile detention.
Crimes against schools, government etc. seem to be punished more harshly.
Indeed. Rob a postman, you're going to do 20 at Club Fed. Rob some random person, you may only get a few years if that.
Re: The post of Dave F -who foolishly commented on "hypocritical Christian morality" and then weighed in with this reprehensible statement
"An unquestionable truth but hardly a justification for murder"
I ask -
How is this in any way related to the murders of these poor folks? Are you saying that it is unquestionably true that these folks were 'hypocritical Christians'?
Please explain so that I can understand how a child of 6 or a child of 2 can be a 'moral hypocrite-'
This comment is a ridiculous and idiotic post.
If you did think that these poor souls were hypocrites, then should the punishment for such a moral failure be a shot in the head? At 6 years old? At any age? And if you do not think that way, then why pontificate with egregious blather about 'moral hypocrisy'?
Wake up and take responsibility for what you posted here - you need to apologize, and that right quickly, for your comments -
Anonymous 6:42:
No one here was referring to the Lillelids--the Christian morality reference had to do with the killer's hometown of Pikeville where the teens perceived they were treated hypocritically and intolerantly by those who called themselves Christians--that is, their school, families and community etc. Not the Lillelid family, they, especially their children were innocent.
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