Thursday, March 29, 2007

Women, Anger and the Web

With all of the anonymous insults being thrown around on the internet these days, do you ever wonder about the sex of the poster? Do you think it's mainly men who are the supposed angrier sex so the insults must be coming from them? Think again. Research from a British study of 22000 people over 50 years shows that women are the angrier sex. Heather Joshi, the study co-author, states, "Our study show that women report being angry far more often than men do."

IT is the research finding every man suspected, and every women will vehemently disagree with - women are the angrier sex.

New research that examined the responses of 22,000 people over 50 years has found that women are more likely to feel angry and persistently frustrated than men.

They also are more likely to act on their frustration in an unhealthy manner, choosing passive aggression over non-violent confrontation, psychologists say.

And Hell really has no fury like a woman scorned, as thirtysomething women with no partner are far more likely to report angry feelings than those with partners....

Dr Dryden, who runs a clinical practice in London, said his work with patients suggests women respond to anger in a less constructive manner than men.

He said: "Instead of using it as an opportunity for assertion, they tend not to deal with it directly, often becoming passively aggressive, talking behind people's backs, or taking feelings out on other people.


The researchers speculate that women's anger is prompted by feelings of powerlessness caused by "entrenched sexism in modern society." As opposed to what, less sexism in ancient society? When sexism was more prevalent, women were even more "ladylike." Today's women are encouraged to express anger in our "you go, girl" culture but instead of using anger constructively, women continue to take the mean-girl routes, talking behind people's backs, avoiding confrontation and personal responsibility for their anger by being anonymous and/or passive aggressive in their approach. What this leads to is probably... more anger.

The solution? Try healthier, more constructive ways of using anger--like confronting others directly (like on Blogging Heads TV). Perhaps by using anger more constructively, women will learn that anger is an emotion that can be helpful, but not if acted out in a passive-aggressive manner where one does not take responsibility for their feelings. Being angry in a direct and open manner where one owns up to their feelings is more likely to be helpful. This also means understanding the boundaries of anger and not pushing the boundaries into something physical etc. when that level is not called for. Women don't seem to understand anger, and our society in general does not help with this. So, women either explode in a generalized "anger at the world" way or act in a passive-aggressive manner so they can dump on others without any responsibility.

It would be interesting to do a study of all of the anonymous posters of insults on various blogs around the web and see if proportionally, there are as many (or more) women who pen the insults (I am not talking here about discussing issues--I mean ad hominem attacks). Because if that is the case, that more women are behind the anonymous insults, it indicates that deep down, women have learned little from feminism over the last years--they are still too afraid to come out in the open in an assertive and constructive manner. They are still, ultimately, too intimidated to take real responsibility for their actions. It's no wonder they are so angry.

Update: If you have a girl or know a girl and want to understand more about the underground culture of aggression in girls, try reading Odd Girl Out: The Hidden Culture of Aggression in Girls by Rachel Simmons. It's a bit too PC for my taste, but Simmons does a good job of describing the dynamics of how girls behave aggressively with each other. What a waste of youthful time!

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131 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Society tends to perceive men as angrier because they are the ones who end up in the news when the finally blow and take out 10 coworkers with them.

I think the above is actually why women are angrier. As the old cliche goes, men can compartmentalize, and as long as they don't let it go too far, they can function fairly calmly. Once women get a burr under their saddles, it affects every aspect of their lives.

Or, so says my dime-store socio-biology.

9:00 AM, March 29, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My wife is far angrier than I am on a day-to-day basis. And she has had a pretty pleasant life in general, so I can't really figure out why. If I ask her directly, she denies being angry...sigh.

I get angry too, but it blows over quickly for me. For her though, it amazes me that she can stay angry over stupid things for months.

Disturbingly, this parallels the ways my parents dealt with anger.

9:01 AM, March 29, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

Anonymous 9:01:

In the research I have done with a colleague, we found that women had more anger symptoms, that is, they feel anger more deeply than men with bodily symptoms that are stronger. I think the problem is the descrepancy between how angry women feel and their complete lack of understanding how to deal with anger. This makes the feeling worse. Their outlets for anger are different than for men. I think this is why women tend to be more aggressive in the relational aspects and act out their anger in underlying ways. They are also more afraid of being disliked which means that they want to show their anger but do not want to be disliked in the process, not an easy task. Hence when your wife is angry, she shows it but then denies it so she will not look like an "anti-girl." If your wife talked to you more directly about what was bothering her in a direct way, my guess is, she might feel her anger less strongly.

9:10 AM, March 29, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Your article is spot-on about real life but you can't really apply it to the internet.

The "mean girls" I know talk behind someone's back but they would never post said person's name on a blog or forum, so it wouldn't make a lot of sense for them to launch an anonymous attack that way.

I find it interesting that online forums generate so much anger. There are very few people who appreciate both sides of an argument. You're other with us or against us (and we hate you).

9:12 AM, March 29, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

Anonymous 9:12:

"You can't really apply it to the internet."

Really, ever been to a site called meankids.org? They've shut down but it was apparently a site where women were involved in slamming other people. Here is what Kathy Sierra, who recently received death threats (not from mean kids as far as I know) said on her blog:

"At about the same time, a group of bloggers including Listics' Frank Paynter, prominent marketing blogger Jeneane Sessum, and Raving Lunacy Allen Herrel (aka Head Lemur) began participating on a (recently pulled) blog called meankids.org. At first, it was the usual stuff--lots of slamming of people like Tara Hunt, Hugh MacLeod, Maryam Scoble, and myself... I do not want to be part of a culture of such hypocrisy where Jeneane Sessum can be a prominent member of blogher, a speaker at industry conferences, an outspoken advocate for women's rights, and at the same time celebrate and encourage a site like meankids -- where objectification of women is taken to a level that makes plain old porn seem quaintly sweet."

So, go tell some of the women who are being harrassed by other women that mean girls don't exist on the net. Yeah, right.

9:25 AM, March 29, 2007  
Blogger hoof_in_mouth said...

I always assumed that 90% of "women" encountered on the internet were actually men posing as women because there was no way any woman would act in that manner.

9:41 AM, March 29, 2007  
Anonymous anonymom said...

Helen,

Does it matter to you if your anonymous posters are men or women?

9:51 AM, March 29, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I presume since you refer directly to bloggingheads you are sidling up to the latest inexplicable Althouse rage fest.

It has been obvious to me for some time now that Prof Althouse - whom I respect and enjoy as a blogger - has some sort of anger issue(s). Whether it is exploding and calling people racists over dinner at a libertarian philosophy conference or stalking Jeff Goldberg all over the web for a week over...well, apparently over her excluded from PJM, or blasting off on that unsuspecting, polite, civil woman on BHTV the other day Prof Althouse has exhibited a distinct pattern of inappropriate raging on innocent bystanders.

It would be nice if people that care about her, especially someone in your position Dr. Helen, would find a way to let her know that. Then perhaps she could get some therapy and figure out what she's really so angry about. Clearly something is wrong and she needs some help with this or she is going to continue to embarrass herself.

10:00 AM, March 29, 2007  
Blogger Jennifer said...

Another interesting study would be why people react to the anger of women so differently than they do men.

I still can't believe the response provoked by a single minute of anger from a woman. We probably see men raising their voice on at least one roundtable/panel show a day. Why the histrionic response when a woman does the same?

I'm also curious whether this would have received the same response had her anger been directed toward a man.

10:05 AM, March 29, 2007  
Anonymous Sebastian said...

Anonymous 10:00AM:

I'd cut Prof. Althouse a break. She gets a lot of undeserved crap from people. I'd be angry as well if I had to put up with half the crap she does, and I'm generally pretty mellow.

10:25 AM, March 29, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Agree with anon at 10:00. If you think that was a healthy example of releasing anger (at a person who had nothing to do with the breast controversy!), then why the apology and embarrassment going across the web?

She has tenure. Most women don't and have to learn to maintain self control. Join a sport, get a hobby, make friends. Don't videotape yourself melting down, then apologize and think it's ok unless you are prepared to be a laughingstock and are nearing the end of your career.

10:28 AM, March 29, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

She gets a lot of undeserved crap from people.

Women need to learn how to identify the source of their anger, then constructively address it head on.

Passive-aggression is where you take out your frustrations on someone who had nothing to do with it. And the pattern repeats and repeats.

I'm also curious whether this would have received the same response had her anger been directed toward a man.

Men are socialized early not to be passive aggressive like this. It's quick, directed toward a target, and no apologies are made for men who publicly tear up or meltdown = They learn not to do it again.

In continually defending bad behavior, you get women behaving badly. Fun to watch if you're willing to sell out your dignity like that.

10:35 AM, March 29, 2007  
Anonymous ricpic said...

A man gets angry about general social/political conditions. Depending on his stance, too much or too little insistence on moral instruction by educators, for example.

A woman gets angry about a specific situation: what he did to me; what she said about me.

I realize there are exceptions to this rule. I'm speaking of "on average."

10:42 AM, March 29, 2007  
Anonymous anonymom said...

Jennifer,

I thought Althouse's outburst got a lot of attention because she asked "why are they so mean to me?" not just because she blew up. Because she started the whole Jessica Valenti breast thing, it seems crazy that she would wonder why they are mean to her. Her response to Galance's comment was not, "Okay, I can see why the breast thing made them mad but they were mean to me even before." Althouse knows the furor over the "breast thing" was her doing. She's the one who posted the photo and made the "place them randomly" comment that brought in a bunch of people posting nasty innuendo about "the intern in the front". If I recall correctly, Althouse posted that BEFORE she knew the girl in front of Clinton was Jessica, the blogger who uses breasts on her feminist blog. So: the temper tantrum seems completely weird and I see no reason to admire her for expressing her anger.

10:44 AM, March 29, 2007  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

AC 9:51

Does it matter to you if she's interested in the proportions?

It's a legitimate point of interest. She has every right to wonder from time to time.

Add to that she's a shrink and, yes, it probably matters to her.

10:50 AM, March 29, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If you were raised in a home that had Playboy on the living room table, it might affect your view of women in deep seated ways, particularly as you age. Maybe it results in youthful pregnancy in the family as the daughters rebel, maybe you carry those male/female relationship values into your adult years, and have trouble in personal relationships.

Passive aggression and anger often reveals more about the source, than the target. Particularly if your targets have similar traits.

10:52 AM, March 29, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

Anonymom,

I guess my answer to Ann's question, "why are they so mean to me" would be "who cares?" There are mean crummy people in the world, especially on the internet where much of the left believes the political is personal and saying mean stuff is their calling card. What did Kathy Sierra do to deserve the death threats she got? Nothing. She's a tech blogger. There are some angry bitter people out there, some congregate together and get their jollies off by trying to silence people. We should admire Ann because she takes a licking and keeps on ticking. I admire her ability to keep going in spite of the vitriol. You should too--that is real feminism--not the fake stuff thrown around so much these days where women are supposed to be put on a pedestal and coddled as a victim class. That's easy, putting yourself out there with one's true opinions is hard. Try it without the annonymom handle sometime.

10:57 AM, March 29, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think if you were raised with Playboy, you're more likely to see something sinister in this picture, for example.

http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/02/11/omg-feminist-blogger-in-clinton-pics-scandal/

I just don't see how the woman in gray is behaving badly -- she has breasts and wrinkles in her shirt. Outside of a Playboy mindset, her pose seems natural enough in real life since women look like that.

If you search her name, she will always be known online for this "scandal", thanks to Althouse. No matter how much you think the free publicity paid her off for this, one woman's sick insult has affected her reputation. That doesn't go away quickly, like the insulter might like. And yes, it does matter that the insulter is a professional woman, indeed a college law professor.

10:58 AM, March 29, 2007  
Anonymous Sebastian said...

One thing on the blogosphere I've never been able to understand is why Ann Althouse has been the target of so many other people's anger and indignation over the things she posts, which I've never really seen as offensive. Controversial sometimes maybe, but a lot of people out there are blogging about controversial subjects.

So what's the beef with her? Because I really don't understand it. If the stuff she posts gets certain people that worked up, the stuff I post should make their heads explode. Yet other controversial bloggers get little in the way of crap, and she seems to get a lot of it.

The only thing I've ever been able to figure is because Ann walks the line between the left and right, the left views that she should be one of them, and when she defies that expectation, they want to take her down as a heretic.

11:00 AM, March 29, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

We should admire Ann because she takes a licking and keeps on ticking.
No. Reasonable people do not support tears and meltdowns for women.

That is real feminism--not the fake stuff thrown around so much these days where women are supposed to be put on a pedestal and coddled as a victim class.

But isn't that exactly what is being done here pretending she is a victim of mean people, instead of recognizing that most want women to be strong ... and retain their class and dignity? My God, it's not like she's fighting for a cause or anything ... she's competing to be the next Coulter.

11:01 AM, March 29, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

Sebastian,

I think you hit the nail on the head. It is scary to think that someone who should be liberal and educated is not (gasp!) fully 100% on your side. The rest of us--even those of us who are libertarians--are just labled wingnuts and either ignored or brought up once in a while as Wanker of the day etc. It is the same reason they hate Jeff Goldstein--an English professor! For goodness sakes, how can he see through their tomfoolery and make fun of them when he should be one of them. Nothing worst than a traitor to the cause.

11:08 AM, March 29, 2007  
Blogger SGT Ted said...

I wonder how the anger study correlates to the other studies that show women are more likely to think that physically striking a man in response to anger is acceptable behavior than men? I also wonder what are the underlying mentalities for that attitude?

11:20 AM, March 29, 2007  
Blogger Mark Daniels said...

Helen:
I think that the study is right on both counts, that women are angrier than men and that their anger tends to be expressed in passive-aggressive ways.

My wife, who feels no hesitation about expressing anger in helpful ways, is a healthier and less angry person than many women because she doesn't feel the need to bottle up her feelings. And she often laments the conditions the study identifies: that women are angry and that it's probably because they express their anger in passive-aggressive ways.

Historically, our culture has put men in places of authority, whether at home, in the workplace, or in social settings. Women have basically been told to get with the male-set program. This incites anger without productive ways to express it.

I don't subscribe to the "tea kettle" school of thought that tells us if we don't immediately vent our spleens, we'll implode. Venting everything we feel can be narcissistic and imprison us and our relationships to our fleeting feelings.

But I do think that relationships in all contexts would be healthier if so many women didn't feel constrained to live in the manner described by Helen.

The Bible has an interesting passage which I share with people--female or male--when they're thrashing with how to deal with a confrontation they need to have: "Be angry; but do not sin. Do not let the sun go down on your anger." The point: It isn't "bad," as I think many women are taught, to feel anger. The question is what to do with it. Do you use it to discuss things with the object of your anger, with the goal of finding a commonly-acceptable solution and of repairing the relationship? Or do you allow it to live inside of you and make you hateful toward the other person, often expressing the anger and now the hatred, in passive-aggressive ways?

That passage from Ephesians, then, is commending taking ownership of our feelings and finding productive, healthy ways to deal with them. In other words, we don't allow our feelings to micromanage our pshyches and lives, programming us. We program ourselves.

The most hate-filled person I know is a an angry passive-aggressive woman who, when confronted with how hurtful her words are, claims that she's being misunderstood and implies that people who think otherwise must either be having bad days or be losing their minds. (More passive-aggressiveness.) This woman may even believe it when she makes these claims. But her family will tell you that her approach is very destructive to her, to their family, and to everybody's health.

I think that the insights in this study are right on!

Better Living: Thoughts from Mark Daniels

11:26 AM, March 29, 2007  
Anonymous TMink said...

Interesting timing, I just got out of a session with a 11 year old girl who is in trouble for her altercations. Most of them are verbal, and the physical ones she has not started, only finished.

But what became clear today was that she was SO easily baited. She had one response to a look or an insult, to fire back a meaner insult. So we practiced dealing with insults in various ways without insulting back. We practiced fogging, ignoring, random comments etc. She would practice for awhile then break the roleplay and fire off a tasty insult! We both laughed after awhile because the pressure to get in the better insult was intense and a litle funny once we recognized it.

In her culture, nobody wins by keeping their cool or knowing when it is smart to avoid conflict. I am not sure that is a female issue in her case, but she is currently stuck in a deep rut with only one way of responding to insults.

Not for long though.

Trey

11:37 AM, March 29, 2007  
Blogger arf said...

I couldn't make it all the way through Odd Girl Out because it was so depressing. There's a book about female competition called Tripping the Prom Queen that deals with some of the ways that women "fight dirty" in life.

11:42 AM, March 29, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

Arf,

Thanks for the recommendation--I haven't read that one yet.

11:50 AM, March 29, 2007  
Blogger Jeff said...

The comments section on Ann's blog is starting to read like that traditional forum for feminine bullying: a slambook. When Ann vented during the BHTV incident, she was expressing anger in a healthy way. She immediately apologised afterwards, which was also healthy.

As opposed to, say, Amanda Marcotte's entire persona of self-appointed moral authority, which seems to be an effective excuse for constant anger and foul language. See also Kos, firedoglake etc.

11:55 AM, March 29, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

APPARENTLY, BLOGGER STILL SUCKS: The Insta-Wife is in the next room cursing, as Blogger just ate a post she'd put a couple of hours' work into. Why doesn't it have the auto-save feature that Gmail has?

Lolol. Not too healthy, I'd say. Didja kick the machine too??

11:57 AM, March 29, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

When Ann vented during the BHTV incident, she was expressing anger in a healthy way. She immediately apologised afterwards

Misdirected anger is never healthy.

11:59 AM, March 29, 2007  
Blogger Cham said...

Small wonder the ladies turn to holding in anger and passive aggressive attacks. If parents cool it on the "be nice" dogma, women would probably find better ways to deal with disagreement. I'm not sure American society is ready for confrontational women, Americans still like women pretty, silent and agreeable no matter how much the culture says it embraces feminism.

12:29 PM, March 29, 2007  
Blogger Jeff said...

"Misdirected anger is never healthy."

...which is why she apologised.

I would say that expressing misdirected anger and then just as quickly owning up to it's misdirection is more healthy than, say, swallowing the anger, allowing it too fester and then acting it out in destructive passive-aggressive ways for days or even years later is much less healthy.

And very female.

2:43 PM, March 29, 2007  
Blogger dadvocate said...

I see this passive-aggressive behavior amongst some of the mothers of girls on my daughter's basketball team. These included lying to coaches about my daughter and other girls, telling girls they were self-centered and conceited, various forms of harassing the coaches and more. I was and still am amazed that these "adults" could do and say such things to 10 year old girls.

My ex-wife became so frustrated that she eventually confronted one of these women and read her the riot act. Often I think my ex is not quite on base with her actions but she was right on with this one.

A couple of the men are chronic complainers but they tend to be more direct and not attack the girls at all. (I can think of one man who may be guilty of this.)

Cham - America is ready for confrontational women providing they realize that confrontation doesn't always equal winning. Most of the time when I'm in a confrotation, I find that a misunderstanding on one party's part underlies the situation. But, in my experience, women are more interested in "teaching a lesson" or winning the conflict rather than working out an amicable solution.

3:34 PM, March 29, 2007  
Blogger Cham said...

Dadvocate, it's not just "teaching a lesson" but there is a weird habit of some women who insist they are viewed as "right" and the other party as "wrong", amicable solution be damned. I think this has a lot to do with the difference between how boys and girls are raised. Men have their quirks too, men are changing drastically from confrontation-oriented to the kings of avoidance. I'm not sure any of this is healthy.

3:53 PM, March 29, 2007  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

"Americans still like women pretty, silent and agreeable"

No thanks. Those kind are high maint and not terribly interesting.

4:01 PM, March 29, 2007  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

Cham - Wouldn't that be the natural outcome of dealing with those who insist they're right and you're wrong, amicable solution be damned?"

4:03 PM, March 29, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

>Research from a British study of 22000 people over 50 years shows that women are the angrier sex.<

Next week Mother and apple pie...and how the sky is blue!

Jeees!

Nick - South Africa

4:21 PM, March 29, 2007  
Blogger SGT Ted said...

"APPARENTLY, BLOGGER STILL SUCKS: The Insta-Wife is in the next room cursing, as Blogger just ate a post she'd put a couple of hours' work into. Why doesn't it have the auto-save feature that Gmail has?"

Use a word processor for lengthy writing. That way if it crashes, you have a saved backup.

4:36 PM, March 29, 2007  
Blogger dadvocate said...

Cham -

some women who insist they are viewed as "right" and the other party as "wrong",

I agree.

I'm sure it is at least in part how they are raised.

Many men are probably becoming more avoidant in confrontations with women. The odds are stacked against them. Women can yell, scream, kick and slap and there's little, if any, repercussion. A man would probably get handcuffed for any of those. Add the "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude you mentioned and what's the point of bothering to confront a woman?

4:40 PM, March 29, 2007  
Blogger SGT Ted said...

"I'm not sure American society is ready for confrontational women, Americans still like women pretty, silent and agreeable no matter how much the culture says it embraces feminism."

Not really. Americans don't mind confrontational women; we just don't like assholes, male or female.

Too many type A women equate being assertive with being a jerk. I have had plenty of female bosses. The worst ones were the jerks, whos assertiveness was more based on their insecurity. The best ones were even more assertive, but they were reasonable people, comfortable in positions of authority.

4:41 PM, March 29, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You should too--that is real feminism--not the fake stuff thrown around so much these days where women are supposed to be put on a pedestal and coddled as a victim class. That's easy, putting yourself out there with one's true opinions is hard. Try it without the annonymom handle sometime.

Do you have tenure? Turns out a lot of people with tenure think anonymity on the net is vastly overrated.

What's funny is how many of these people simultaneously worship our founders. (As they should.)

The cluelessness of the academic is always amazing.

4:51 PM, March 29, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Odd Girl Out is a fascinating study of adolescent female bullying. It was important to address an often ignored pattern of female aggression, and its emotional damage to generations of women.

9:27 PM, March 29, 2007  
Anonymous Viola Jaynes said...

The most angry people I have ever encountered personally in my life, have been women. Full of hate, insecurity and sharp tongues. They are not able to ever say that they were wrong in any way. They only leave destruction in their path and many...even strong men are intimidated by them. It is sad!

9:29 PM, March 29, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Misdirected anger is never healthy."

...which is why she apologised.


Bull Roar.
That's not a sincere apology when you continue to blame the person who unknowing talked about something you had joked about in your previous bh segment. It's just like the comments about Jessica's breasts -- encouraging comments about Garance's hair or nose. Sounds sincere to me.

9:53 PM, March 29, 2007  
Blogger jw said...

Dadvocate said: "Many men are probably becoming more avoidant in confrontations with women. The odds are stacked against them. Women can yell, scream, kick and slap and there's little, if any, repercussion."

I completely agree with this. Men are increasingly simply unwilling to even bother trying to deal with angry women: It makes no sense as she has all the cards, all the power and all the support to do whatever she wants.

I think we are raising a generation of angry and insensitive women; plus men who believe that angry and rude is normal female behavior. That is not at all healthy.

I'm not so sure about some of the things said about men either. The men in our first world culture have taken a lot of bad behavior from the women: That cannot continue for much longer. Eventually, the men will strike back and I very much doubt that our women are capable of taking a years long behave-yourself lecture from almost every male they know.

4:26 AM, March 30, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Actually, I suspect that socialization is not the only thing that is behind it.

From an evolutionary standpoint, given that women as a group are inherently less physically capable and less able to defend ourselves, it makes sense that women might well be hardwired to avoid conflict. We are pacifiers because we can't fight our way out. Men are able to be more direct because they have less to fear from confrontation.

In today's world, where physical confrontation is a marginalized method of conflict resolution, some men are too hotheaded and some women much too passive aggressive.

Just a point of interest for me. Regardless of how much of the behavior is genetic, I still believe that as humans we have the ability to identify and control primitive behavior that no longer serves a useful purpose in modern society.

--Tsiroth

8:56 AM, March 30, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I find it interesting that there is such defensiveness at anger, tears, or crying. I'm not saying that all a/t/c is wrong - but honestly, sometimes anger is justified. Sometimes it's ok for some - _who also happens to be a woman_ - to cry about something. Why the defensiveness? Doesn't fit your worldview?

It's ok for women to be angry or to cry. (It's not always ok, but it's ok.)

11:02 AM, March 30, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The trouble with socialization is that it doesn't stick: all the learned ones die off, and the new ones have to be retaught. Over and over again. There seems to be an irreduciable component of humans that stubbornly reappears each generation.

It's not that it's impossible to "fix" through education, but like cutting off rats' tails for genetic experimentation, trying to socialize humans is a task that must be repeated each generation.

11:05 AM, March 30, 2007  
Blogger Melvin said...

Dear Dr. Helen:

I appreciated your article and think this is an interesting find.

However, I'm posting to comment on you - you, ma'am, are smoking hot. Looks and smarts, a combination worth a million in this world...

11:34 AM, March 30, 2007  
Blogger Galvanized said...

Girls are socialized from a young age that to express their anger physically is uncivilized and trashy. We were taught to suppress our anger by our mothers. As far as socialization, in movies in particular, the angry woman is most often characterized in one of two ways -- either crying (implying vulnerability/injury) or passive-aggressively (seeking revenge by sabotage or secretive little mean acts). Women are more apt to save their anger for a rainy day, to use it to their advantage later. However, today's girls are clearly more comfortable physically expressing their anger on girls and boys alike, but only after verbal sparring. Get the breakdown from any girl in public school. You can laugh at me on this, but I think that the popular music and music videos are the main vehicles for socializing children nowadays; and women in the songs/videos show girls today how to physically assert their anger. There is very little bottling up going on anymore. One factor that helps is that men are expected to be PC and never to hit back. Girls have learned this.

Where I do agree with the article is that anger expressed passive-aggressively is indeed a female trait. For the most part, men just don't do this; but, if so, that is considered effeminate. In short, I think people believe that testosterone acts, estrogen plans. It will be interesting to see in studies how the next generation changes the findings.

11:40 AM, March 30, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You have absolutely no FUCKING CLUE WHATSOEVER WHAT THE HELL YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT BITCH!!!!!!

JUST KIDDING!

11:41 AM, March 30, 2007  
Blogger CatoRenasci said...

Sgt Ted wrote:
The worst ones were the jerks, whos assertiveness was more based on their insecurity. The best ones were even more assertive, but they were reasonable people, comfortable in positions of authority.

While it's difficult to comment on the historical study, I think Sgt Ted is onto something here. In the modern "you go Girl!" world, women understand they are supposed to be strong and agressive, but most of the way they are raised does not give them what they need to handle authority.

Insecurity may come from having been put down - the traditional sexist denigration of women - but more importantly in the post-modern world is the fact that what much of the literature about growing up female over the past 20 years has been concerned with is possible low self-esteem of the young women.

I'm not really sure where it came from, but from the first time I read about concerns with self-esteem, probably in the mid-1960s, I felt we were off-track and headed the wrong way.

What I learned from my parents and readings in philosophy and older psychology -- and frankly from common sense -- is that the way to become comfortable with yourself, and hence to be able to handle authority, was to develop self-respect not self-esteem.

The two could not be more different: self-respect requires genuine accomplishment, whether it's physical, intellectual or moral. It's not pride so much as recognizing that one had choices and made good ones, or used abilities in positive ways. If you do those things, the chances are you will feel good about yourself and have a high self-esteem.

But, self-esteem simpliciter is about feeling good about yourself regardless of the objective reality. So we have the phenomenon of encouraging the least thing and telling everyone how wonderful and special they are, even if they're thoroughly average and consistently make horrible choices.

Somewhere, someone studying 'self-esteem' failed to make the connection that it was possible to have self-esteem without the underlying self-respect that is a necessary condition for justifiable self-esteem.

11:53 AM, March 30, 2007  
Blogger Andrew said...

I'm about to get married, and the Fi-Antsy and I have spent a bit of time talking about how we communicate. A lot of it's the typical gender tension of attention-vs.-alone time, but sometimes she will whip herself into a frenzy over something that, to me, is a minor detail. I recognize that my dismissal probably fuels the fire, so I try to be a good listener, but sometimes I find myself saying "Look, what do you want to hear before you'll calm down? You've said the same thing five times." Not that I ever expect an answer about that.

Incidentally, I too have inappropriate anger, which has mellowed somewhat (I'm 30, my fiance 23) I've been known to beat printers with my fists and freak out when I get lost. However, I will ask for directions, though I'm skeptical as to their efficacy.

But the notion that women are angrier than men I buy without reservation. I saw it growing up. Nor do I think that assertiveness necessarily helps.
All too quickly assertion becomes aggression if it remains untouched by humility, and that defies gender markings.

12:05 PM, March 30, 2007  
Blogger SGT Ted said...

"...but sometimes she will whip herself into a frenzy over something that, to me, is a minor detail. I recognize that my dismissal probably fuels the fire, so I try to be a good listener..."


I find this attitude in women to be self centered. Why are womens emotional reactions to be catered to, while men must remain the stoic in their reactions?

12:30 PM, March 30, 2007  
Blogger CatoRenasci said...

To follow up on my 11:53 comment:

Having concluded many young women (men, too, but that's not the issue we're addressing now) have had serious attention lavished on building their self-esteem, but not so much (if any) building their self-respect, I suspect many of them deep down know this self-esteem stuff is phony, which breeds insecurity.

That underlying sense that all the rah rah you go girl! bravado is merely that, breeds an insecurity that does not go well with handling authority, because it lacks both self-knowledge and self-respect. Such women need to use authority in order to convince themselves they are in authority. Whereas a woman or man who is thoroughly comfortable with her or himself and can comfortably discharge responsibilities manifests her or his authority naturally without needing to prove anything. Great leaders inspire their followers, they do not coerce them. They can command, when that's appropriate, but they don't feel compelled to use the form and language of command just to show they wield power.

12:50 PM, March 30, 2007  
Anonymous Gary said...

Doesn't a lot of this come down to just acting like a grownup, instead of a snotty, self-centered teenager?

Too short a fuse, whether the individual is male or female, suggests to me someone who lacks maturity and people skills. I'm really not sure it's a whole lot more complicated than that.

12:56 PM, March 30, 2007  
Blogger Pyrthroes said...

Females are notorious for relying on "mere words". Probably for lack of physical strength, all they can do is vent verbally rather than take "positive gear-drive action" (from a delightfully meaningless but suggestive air-conditioner commercial). But since shouting and screaming is all women are capable of, they evitably sacrifice fair-mindedness, integrity, rationality on the altar of rants and skritches. "Common scold" is the technical term.

Verbalizing habits of mind butter no parsnips in hard sciences, professions demanding more than voiced-over cliches. Alas, the consequence of VAWA et.al. is not to elevate feministical status but to render it absurd... and as for "equal protection of the laws", abdicated now for decades, society as always will over-compensate the obverse of that coin in good time.

How so, Betty and Bella may well ask. Well, let's put it this way, fuzzies: No law is Just that routinely discriminates against any class of citizens; absent justice, lawlessness supplies alternatives; and without law, you had better prepare yourselves for self-defense.

Too complex, too rational? Consider why NOW with its stupid ERA has not, will not, indeed simply cannot ever address the sickening spectacle of Womanhood under Islam. To do so would be to admit female weakness, to seek protection under just laws that do not actively denigrate and victimize half the citizenry (the male half). And yet, not doing so leads to creeping Shar-ia, surely among the most barbaric, reactionary, retrogressive credos known to Man. (Yes, to Humanity.)

Where do Betty and Bella, and their big-talkin' sisterhood, go when Islam's brutal mullah-dullahs come knockin' at their doors? "Save us, Smee-- it's the Crocodile!" But Captain Hook has long since gone his way, with thanks for Betty's and Bella's crass encouragement. You GO, girls: Flaunt your burqas, cower in back-kitchens. If your philandering partner or other Dominant Male makes accusation, be sure that stones will pulp your smirking Sisterhood without recourse. But hey, isn't that what you do NOW?

12:58 PM, March 30, 2007  
Blogger TheDoctorOfLove said...

I don't think women would vehemently disagree with this, I think they would angrily disagree with this.

1:33 PM, March 30, 2007  
Anonymous bandit said...

I don't know how much they spent on this study but I could've told them that for free

1:37 PM, March 30, 2007  
Blogger AFSister said...

I would counter that report with "yes, but men tend to act upon their anger more often than women do".

I think there's a lot to the control theory- ever heard the saying "He who angers you, controls you"? Think about it- there's a lot of truth to that statement.

1:47 PM, March 30, 2007  
Anonymous tyree said...

Thanks for that...my wife thought "Odd Girl Out" was a good book to.
My youngest daughter was treated very poorly by almost all of the girls and teachers in her high school. She was tall, beautiful, had a handsome twin brother and was an accomplished ballet dancer, with the size 0 figure to go with it. She was attending a magnet school for advanced students. When her grades started falling the teachers mostly wrote her off. She was expelled the morning final exams were to begin, even though good grades on those exams could have kept her in the school. Her parents, of course, were not informed that she was being expelled and she was berated for not crying when they told her she had to leave. After she started to get settled in her new school, girls from her old school started calling her new friends to "tell them what she was really like". Our inability to help her with this agression was the biggest failure of my marriage, and is something that will hurt me till the day I die.

2:16 PM, March 30, 2007  
Blogger Library-Gryffon said...

The only two bosses/supervisors I've had over the years who threatened, bullied, harrassed, and/or assaulted me were both women. Looking back on it from a vantage point of many years, I think I made the mistake of being good at my job, and they were themselves too insecure/incompetent to handle working around or with a woman who was competent. I found out after the fact that in both cases these women had a history of treating coworkers/subordinates in similar fashion.

I've never had a problem like this with men.

2:17 PM, March 30, 2007  
Blogger ditchthebitch said...

It's really silly how we all pretend that women are not angry most of the time and violent- I guess so they can keep False Allegation of Domestic Violence Inc. in business? Watch this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=LYxJ8V_0ktw

2:22 PM, March 30, 2007  
Blogger Sloan said...

My wife and daughter are avid equestrians and ride three or four times a week at a stable outside Atlanta. Recently the owner/operator/chief instructor died very suddenly, leaving the barn to be managed by her husband, who has a full-time job in addition to doing maintenance around the stables, and a small cadre of women (including my wife) who are trying desperately to keep things going. Keep in mind that most equestrian facilities are operated and frequented predominantly by women.

Since the funeral, my wife has told me many stories of problems cropping up persistently between various women at the barn, and she has solicited my advice on how to deal with them. Most of the problems seem to stem from unfounded assumptions, passive-aggressive behavior, and talking behind each other's backs, that seems to stem largely from a reluctance to confront an issue head-on when it crops up. Most of my advice has been of the "have them talk it out face-to-face" variety, and my wife has done her level best to make that happen, but it seems like nobody wants to just deal with things head-on.

Example: One woman had taken on the job of handling evening feedings, but some of the other boarders thought she was perhaps short-changing some of the horses. They had no concrete proof for this, but instead of finding a non-confrontational way to ask her about it, they assumed malice on her part (perhaps because she was one of the newer boarders and nobody knew much about her) and they spread rumors about her. Stuff like this is driving my wife nuts. I try to imagine this scenario with myself and a barn full of guys, and I can't help but think that we'd be a bit more direct in dealing with each other.

I don't think I'm wrong in thinking that this kind of behavior, in general, is more characteristic of women than of men. We really do seem to deal with conflict in very different ways. This is not to imply that men always deal with conflict in a healthy manner...far from it. But we're beginning to see the sorts of things that the former owner, God rest her patient soul, had to deal with on a daily basis. And if these ladies don't get it together, the whole stable is going to come flying apart.

3:03 PM, March 30, 2007  
Blogger ditchthebitch said...

It is not that “innate” brains that are a big contributor. Differences exist, sure, but what is the real problem? Instead, I am sure it is the differing levels of stress, and whether they are “social-stresses”, or based on tangible problem-solving.

Imagine you give a man a government that: though incentives and threats gets women to work more than men and taxes them accordingly, tolerates systematic beating of girls while protecting boys with a vengeance, grants automatic child custody to husbands, gives a free welfare “bonus” for impregnating women, tells him he is special and needs emotional support networks, and says that women are here for the sole purpose of physically defending and financially supporting him, and makes sure through health funding that the man lives longer and has all of the legal rights of a woman plus a few more for good measure. He will certainly be, like any “royals” of centuries ago, angry and pathetic. It’s the same with the “gender-royale” of feminists who suffer from Reason-Anorexia.

Females certainly have all the same capacity for rational thought, but today what is the incentive for her? Sure the man in the relationship is often needed as a pillar of “principles”. Nothing special, it’s just as a woman can sometimes do better at things involving socializing. It does not have to be labelled “hard-wired” biology, it’s just a tendency toward a natural order that works well. But like an atrophied muscle, many people with heads in the sand are just trying to make excuses for not using their brain to its potential.

3:52 PM, March 30, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am a 36-year old woman, and I am embarrassed by the treacherous behavior of women today.

The death of the family sits partially on the shoulders of wild, angry, spoiled women who don't know how to be wives, and can't stop partying enough to learn.

About 3 years ago, I started paying close attention to relationship dynamics. Lately, I visit sites like yours and I have observed something that startled me at first... men want to be husbands and fathers. They want to be loved and respected, and to provide stability in return.

Women haven't learned how to serve, and as a remedy, they make sure the men are labeled as villains to justify the whole scene.

It has gone from bad to worse, and only calamity can follow this decline.

3:59 PM, March 30, 2007  
Anonymous Joe Y said...

I think there are two major flaws in the development of this discussion:

1: Begging the question; specifically the assumption that the natural anger dynamics of male and female are identical until influenced by society, family, etc. Anger has powerful physical consequences (and perhaps origins; I’m way out of my depth there). For men, anger is dangerous, for themselves and others. Men are slow to anger, in my experience, because there is no telling where it will stop. Men are overwhelmed by anger. We don’t know what to do when we are outraged or when other men are furious with us. There is a powerful impulse to commit some act of violence or destruction. I almost never get angry, but I don’t trust myself when I am. There is usually a brief moment where I cannot control myself. Similarly, when another man is angry at me, I don’t know where it will lead; he probably doesn’t either, and if I lose my temper in turn, the consequences could be horrendous. I wonder if, in the most literal and basic sense, men don’t get as angry as women because it is so much more of a physical strain and effort.

I don’t know what part of the country the many people here live where there are so many restrained, quiet, retiring women, but let the rest of us know, won’t you? I’d like to go there on vacation next year. I’ve lived up and down the East Coast, the Deep South, Northern California, and spend a lot of time in the Midwest, so I know that’s not where you’re from. There is a strongly higher proportion of women in all of these places who are more willing to express anger and push to get their way than men. Also, a lot of what posters here call “passive-aggressive” is plain old “aggressive-aggressive.”

There’s nothing passive about this:

“I see this passive-aggressive behavior amongst some of the mothers of girls on my daughter's basketball team. These included lying to coaches about my daughter and other girls, telling girls they were self-centered and conceited, various forms of harassing the coaches and more. I was and still am amazed that these "adults" could do and say such things to 10 year old girls.”

Or this:

“After she started to get settled in her new school, girls from her old school started calling her new friends to "tell them what she was really like".

“Rudeness is the weak man’s imitation of strength” – Eric Hoffer

PS to Mark Daniels, the poster who wrote: “My wife, who feels no hesitation about expressing anger in helpful ways, is a healthier and less angry person than many women because she doesn't feel the need to bottle up her feelings,” left me sorrowful. Is that what she has you believing, that she’s yelling at you in “helpful ways” (it’s for your own good) and “is healthier” (and don’t try to stop me or you’ll hurt me)? Man, and I thought I was whipped…

4:00 PM, March 30, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“I find something more bitter than death: the woman whose heart is snares and nets, and whose hands are fetters. He who pleases God escapes her, but the sinner is taken by her. Behold, this is what I found, says the Preacher, while adding one thing to another to find the scheme of things which my soul has sought repeatedly, but I have not found. One man among a thousand I found, but a woman among all these I have not found.” Ecclesiastes 7:26

4:11 PM, March 30, 2007  
Blogger Taleena said...

As someone who had to (and to an extent still does) deal with anger issues I find this extemely interesting.

I want to emphatically reject the notion that an encouragement of "niceness" or "ladylike behavior" is the cause of passive agressive behavior. I encourage my daughters to exhibit nice and ladylike behaviors because have outer discipline encourages inner discipline.

If you control what shoots out of your mouth you develop control over your feelings and so you find that you are only responding in anger towards the things which merit an angry response.

Note the word "response" which is an entrire world away from "react". To suggest that men are allowed free rein for their anger because we have societal venues for male agression (sports)is silly. We have strong societal prohibitions against men striking women but not women striking men. Agression and anger are not synonomous.

We have always had and continue to have appropriate venues for directing anger, male and female. Some are the same for the sexes and some are different. What we do not have in quanity these days are people who are willing to be accountable for controlling their own emotions and finding an acceptable way of dealing with it.

4:28 PM, March 30, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"What we do not have in quanity these days are people who are willing to be accountable.."

You hit the nail right on the head. The magic word is 'accountable.' When are women EVER held accountable in our society today? NEVER. In a marriage? Women always blame the husband for what they do wrong. If she cheats, it's "he wasn't showing me enough attention" & a million other excuses- I can't remember EVER hearing a woman say, "my marriage failed and it was my fault." At work? Never. A woman just turns on the tears or threatens a bogus lawsuit- always an excuse- never accountable. In a court of law? Virtually never- a woman can even kill her husband or child and just get a slap on the wrist. Accountability is the cornerstone of character & women today have none & this is why women today are such horrible, horrible people that more and more everyday everyone wants to just get away from them- including other women.

4:50 PM, March 30, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It would be nice if people that care about her (Ann Althouse), especially someone in your position Dr. Helen, would find a way to let her know that. Then perhaps she could get some therapy and figure out what she's really so angry about. Clearly something is wrong and she needs some help with this or she is going to continue to embarrass herself.

What about women like me? I have a really hard time not ranting against people like anonymous who posted that above. What a passive aggresive smuck she is. Oh yes, anonymous, thank you for your wisdom. What anonymous is really doing is insult disguised as wisdom and/or advice. She could just as easily be saying someone is fat or old or stupid, but she's one of those creepy people who loves a feeding frenzy. "Look, everyone is kicking Ann, it will be so much fun to join the party and when they knock her down, I'll go kick her too". Bleh. Anonymous - get help!

But what does it say about me that I feel compelled to point out to anonymous that her mean-girl attitude is so transparent that even a child can see it?

I'm not mean in real (non-internet) life. I would never dump on anonymous like I just did in (non-internet) public, and not because I'm afraid or cowardly. I'd be perfectly happy to say that to Anonymous' face, but the confrontation would embarrass HER - not me. I wouldn't want to be so mean.

But on the internet, I just feel so tired of suffering people like anonymous and often just give them a dose of what I really think.

Maybe it is because I think I am being helpful, in helping them to see themselves and improve. Maybe I'm just tired of the facade of these passive-aggressive types like anonymous, and the internet allows me to tell them what I think without publically humiliating them.

I'm not a mean person really. But sometimes I just can't help telling people like anonoymous that they are full of ....

What does that say about me?

6:20 PM, March 30, 2007  
Blogger Chief RZ said...

Just think Hillary.

7:51 PM, March 30, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anger (sometimes called wrath) is one of the Seven Deadly Sins. I'm not going to go all religious on you, but that list of seven is a pretty good map of human nature. The contemporary concept of "venting" is foolish; anger often becomes habitual, with tantrums leading to more tantrums.

9:43 PM, March 30, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Over the years, I have seen many things, and some of them say women are NOT nicer than men and the women don't know it.

Strictly a first person story, but I was carpooling w 3 men and a woman to a dance. I told a story about a woman REALLY cutting me down once when I asked her to dance. The woman in the car sad "Oh, women don't do things like that". You would think the men had rehearsed. It was simultaneous "Oh, yes they do".

60 years of "minor" incidents like that and you start to see a pattern.

10:58 PM, March 30, 2007  
Blogger Stan said...

Gee, now I think I know a good part of why my wife divorced me. She was almost always angry, but never admitted to it. She was always "fine" and even when I knew something, and kept asking, it got nowhere. Then one day it was over and nothing I could do could stop it.

I'd much rather she had give me a right hook, rather than months of awkwardness.

12:05 AM, March 31, 2007  
Blogger Mike H. said...

Study proposal: Does the difference between women and men in terms of anger management stem from the propensity for men to be emotionaly beaten down in the early years of their career? As a young man I was not allowed to become angry while on the job or suffer the loss of my job. Most women were sent home to deal with the problem. I had to come up with management techniques on my own and thought that there might be differences in long term results. Now, at the age of 60, I'm a bit more laid back about things, but I've always been curious.

1:54 AM, March 31, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

chiefrz - brevity is the soul of wit and your two word response was funny. But it was also insightful.

If one were to rate "meanness", it seems to me that the initial offense of very pubicly calling a specific individual "unhinged" (no matter how nicely it was said) was far greater on the meanness scale than the anonymous to anonymous verbal slug that followed.

If everthing I know I learned in kindergarten applies here, it might provide some insight. (forgive this example because I haven't had my coffee yet.)

Example: A child is being constantly poked by another child. The teacher doesn't notice until the child being poked finally gets fed up and pushes the poker to the ground. The poked child is able to show the teacher a skin wound, proving that s/he was indeed provoked before s/he reacted. Here are the very typical responses I would expect from this scenario:

If both children were boys, both would get in trouble for their bad behavior (two wrongs don't make a right) IE: There would be some concession that he had been provoked, but he'd still get in trouble.

If the poker was a girl and the pusher was a boy, then greatest admonishment would be directed toward the boy. IE: It is never OK to push a girl, there would be no concession for having been provoked.

If the poker was a boy and the pusher was a girl, the dynamic would be slightly different. Most likely she would be punished for acting "like Hillary" (so to speak) with no concession for being provoked - ie: it is never ok for a girl to act in such an aggressive manner. The boy would most likely also be reprimanded for poking and simultaneously be led to believe he asked for it and deserved what he got.

The two word response, "think Hillary" was funny - really - it was. But I think it says much about how society views conflict when a woman uses passive agressive tactics v/s just plain ol' aggressive ones. The passive aggressive behavior is punished only when someone pushes back. And the response to that push back is different when men push back than it is for women.

8:45 AM, March 31, 2007  
Anonymous Margaret said...

I'm nearing 70 and have finally learned to be direct about my thoughts and feelings -- not a moment too soon.

I think that my marriage is better -- it's far easier on my husband to know that he has been rude or cold to me than for me to suffer silently while he twists in the wind until I feel like forgiving him.

It takes courage to be direct and their are times when it is a real risk to a relationship.

I am also quicker to ask forgiveness for when I have been mean, often due to being upset about something else (like politics).

I know that time is running out for both of us, so working to make his life happier results in making my life happier.

3:03 PM, March 31, 2007  
Blogger Kat said...

First, I'd have to say that some folks' comments are reflecting some personal, although very intense, experiences as anecdotal evidence that this study is representative of an over all reality.

On pain of being labeled a raging Femi-nazi, could the "rise" in female anger be only more apparent because the boundaries that once enforced a code of silence are no longer existent?

And, could it be that the men who answered questions in the negative regarding the actions in response to anger be, well, not totally forthcoming because it is a male cultural concept not to "boast" and to maintain their image as controlled?

I mean, while assault by women on men and women is rising, it still does not equal, to any extent, the amount of physical assaults by men on men, women or children.

On the otherhand, the rise in "anger" and its display may be a response to all of the things that women are now exposed to that were, in fact, if not less prevalent at least not noted as often in society (for instance, is it true that spousal abuse was less likely in the glorious '50s or just less reported?)

Now that "liberation" has been underway for over 30 years, while I would agree that it has reflected negatively on marriage, raising children and other once "normal" social models and construct, it has also exposed them to an increasingly angry society in general.

I think that expression of anger is simply a response to society in general and since women ARE in fact just as prone to be single or part of a single parent family where they are much more responsible for the survival of the family, it has to be of little surprise that such stresses are reflected in their behavior.

As far as expressions of anger on the internet, particularly the anonymous kind, I believe this is not gender based in terms of the expression of anger as much as it is a phenomena of the number and types of users who gravitate towards these forums.

If an equal study was performed on internet users (which I believe exists somewhere) I believe we would find that women not only are the minority in blogging, but in use of the internet for personal edification or expression. I belive such a study would show women using the internet for more practical daily activities like shopping, searching for addresses and simple emailing between friends.

I believe, as one has already posted, it is the over all anonymity of the internet and even blogs that allow people to lose all sense of boundaries and normally socially accepted behaviors. It is much easier to say mean and nasty things into the great blackhole of the internet than it is to say something to someone's face.

That goes for all genders.

I would be more interested in a study that shows the age groups of those who use the internet, what they use it for and whether they are more willing to express anger on a website.

My theory would be that those who are above 30 (regardless of gender) and have had much more personal interaction in the "real" world would be more circumspect in commenting than a young person who has yet to mature socially.

We are the sum of our parts after all.

5:00 PM, March 31, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

interesting post.

I belive such a study would show women using the internet for more practical daily activities like shopping, searching for addresses and simple emailing between friends.

I can say that that generalization does not apply to me and I had to fight the urge not to find that comment demeaning. I do like to shop, though :-)

One thing that I think needs to be considered is that you can not talk about women and anger without talking about whether or not a woman's anger was justified. That seems huge to me. I didn't read all of the comments, but the laws of physics must be added to this discussion (for every action, etc.)

I knew a girl once who always talked as if she suffered her husband and it annoyed me. But then I met him and I could not imagine how she tolerated his boorishness day after day. In effect he was lucky to have someone willing to nag him - as most women would not have stayed around long enough to make that effort. They were happy in their dysfunction and so I was happy that they had found each other.

But I think you have to consider whether or not the anger is JUSTIFIED before discussing the method of how the anger is expressed.

6:39 PM, March 31, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Here is my weird story about anger:

At work, I am a writer and recently I achieved success unlike any I have ever known. I also am the only female in my department and I have proven I can get along with all the guys and be one of them. The good part is, it's all made me confident and upfront about what I am thinking and feeling. I am rarely angry and I think only good things about others, but I am not afraid to express myself.

A guy at my workplace, another writer in a different department, writes this creepy note to the company brass about something I wrote, something unsigned by me that he first poked around earlier and illicitly found out that I was the author of.

He was someone I had had political differences with in the past but I had always smoothed them over in the name of comity. This time, out of the blue and I hadn't talked to him in months before this, he explained to the company brass that I was undermining the whole company because my opinion about a certain industry didn't agree with his, and he explained that he was the real expert so his opinion was actually fact. Of course it wasn't.

He impugned my motives, misrepresented what I had written in my work and called me wilfully ignorant among other things. He also belittled my department and mischaracterized its mission.

Then he sent the note to my direct boss as well as all the brass above him, condemning my work. My name wasn't cited in his pompous and patronizing condemnation, but my work was. Up until then, he'd always been calm and friendly and nice and I even had his home phone number. Now he held me up to scorn to my superiors like I was this miscreant whose dangerous cancer that could only be cured by his calm facts.

After he sent the email to my superiors, he sent a copy to me and a colleague a couple days later, for what purpose I do not know and he did not say. He just wanted us to know that he had written it.

Truly, I've never encountered anything so negatively creepy in my life, I had thought he was a friend up until that moment but he went off on me like a gun and made me look bad in front of my bosses' bosses by misrepresenting my work.

My boss said to ignore him and my colleagues said it was a hazard of the job and to dismiss him but after an encounter with one of his bosses, who suddenly treated me rudely and told me to consult my antagonist for advice, it occurred to me that the brass seemed to believe him without any effort to investigate.

I want to scream out and defend myself because I have facts to defend my work with, but my boss says forget about him and none of my departmental colleagues thinks anything is wrong and they chat and gladhand with the guy in front of me after what he did.

I feel gagged and libeled. I want to defend myself. But my colleagues seem to want to avoid open warfare. I think this guy already declared war so I want to fire back. I am thinking of hitting him with a defamation lawsuit but I really don't know what to do. I feel this anger eating at me and I have no outlet and no avenue of action.

7:13 PM, March 31, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have proven I can get along with all the guys and be one of them. Well, there was your first mistake.

He is jealous of you Don't kid yourself that you can get him or anyone else on your side. I have no advice for you - yours is a difficult situation that depends on the personalities and facts at hand. But that won't stop me.

First, don't over react. That will play right into his hand. Take a lesson from Dianne Feinstein and the main stream media. The best thing you can do to make a bad situation go away is to ignore it. That is the worst thing that could happen to him because it makes him look foolish if this just dies on the vine.

If possible, just shrug it off as petty and silly and let it die.

What's troubling here is that it appears that your boss does not seem to be going to bat for you and his boss has been openly hostile. That's not good.

If I were you, I'd chum up to as many other superiors as you can, act as if this is so petty as not to be worthy of your time then and lay in wait for him to make a mistake that you can use as a battering ram. No, just kidding about that last part.

Really - the best advice is to act as if his accusations prove he is a petty backbiter and to hunker down and wait out the storm. Being that he is the jerk in this situation, he will reveal himself given enough rope and time. Your job is to give him the rope.

Good luck!

7:46 PM, March 31, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thank you!

2:50 AM, April 01, 2007  
Blogger Tantor said...

This finding agrees with my personal experience. While only a small fraction of co-workers will cause you trouble, there is a difference between genders. Difficult male co-workers want to dominate you in place and will back down quickly when a complaint is brought before management. Difficult female co-workers want to get you fired and will escalate the situation when you bring your complaint before management, often by inventing harassment. In the politically correct corporate environment, any harassment complaint by a female is taken as fact by HR, no matter how impossible.

Another aspect of this problem is that when difficult male co-workers have a disagreement with you, there will be a certain logic to it which you can follow, however dysfunctional. When a difficult female co-worker has a problem with you, it can be completely irrational and impossible to follow.

For example, a young guy I knew at an old job could not do anything right in the eyes of his 28-year-old female boss. Every meeting was full of reprimands. Every written task he submitted she sent to another group to be reworked. After she changed jobs, her girlfriend at work revealed that she and her husband had been having trouble and had gotten a divorce. The young guy at work physically resembled her philandering husband. She told her girlfriend that every time she met with him, it filled her with rage. This irrational rage had sent this guy shopping his resume around.

11:36 AM, April 01, 2007  
Blogger Tantor said...

Anon: "A guy at my workplace, another writer in a different department, writes this creepy note to the company brass about something I wrote, something unsigned by me that he first poked around earlier and illicitly found out that I was the author of."

You simply can not count on business management to be fair or professional. When such an incident first comes to your attention, you should call a meeting with the perpetrator, your boss, his boss, and an HR rep, and ask him directly in this meeting why he is acting unethically. Calmly and reasonably tell all present that you expect everyone to act professionally and courteously to you. Look him in the eyes, tell him firmly that I expect this to stop, and get a commitment from him to stop it. If he does agree to it, accept it but say that if it happens again you will take additional steps. Don't be specific.

Make sure you make a formal complaint to HR. You don't know what this yo yo will do in the future. It's best to have a documented history of wrong-doing in any corporate or legal action in the future. If you let him off, he will think he can talk his way out of any future trouble. You must give him a firm rap on the nose to teach him you are troublesome prey.

If he escalates the situation, take immediate action in a calm way. If he threatens you at work, even in a joking way, call the police and file a report. Bringing the police to work will focus everyone's attention on the problem. If the slander persists, you may elect to hire a lawyer to send him a hundred dollar lawyer letter or go to court to get a restraining order. Document every incident for HR and make a complaint. Keep copies of every interation with the offender at work and at home.

Don't get mad nor loose your cool. Keep the pressure on him like an anaconda.

11:56 AM, April 01, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Years ago, I read a comment by a woman that completely explained why women are angry.

I believe it was Mrs. Statler (not sure) who said:

"I married beneath myself. Every woman does".

Explains a lot. Makes sense.

2:32 PM, April 01, 2007  
Anonymous Graham Strouse said...

It is also my experience that women sometimes fail to recognize the potential consequences of their actions:

Case in point:

Stephen King's "Carrie".

Kids, just a tip--do not dump a bucket of pig's blood on the emotionally fragile girl with the psycho-religious who you elected prom queen in a rigged vote EVEN THOUGH YOU ALREADY KNOW SHE CAN MOVE OBJECTS WITH HER MIND.

Come to think of it, this is sort of what happend with Anakin in "Revenge of the Sith" after Mace kept on punking him...

So, correction: Do not, under any circumstances, and regardless of gender, aggravate a young, fragile soul who is also a font of unspeakable power & has serious anger/emotional management issues.

I'll be in another zip code. On another planet, maybe.

3:08 PM, April 01, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Agree that you have to make him realize you are troublesome prey and do everything possible to put him on the defense instead of offense.

From your description of events, I still think jealousy is the most obvious motive, but it might be worth your while to reassess if there is a logic to his anger - just in case there is a specific grievence you can address. It may be something like your column got better placement (tough luck for him) or something as petty as you smack your gum too loud our hum when you type. Silly examples, but you get my point.

Either way it would be best if you could establish what HIS problem is, not that you need to make it your own. Knowlege is power.

Reading the other comments - I think simply hunkering down may have been bad advice (that was mine:-) and perhaps filing a grievence is a good idea - especially in light of the fact that your boss seems to be the weak link in the chain.

However - none of us know the situation, nor do we know you. Be very, very careful. No matter how unfair this is, the minute you file a grievence it is an admission that you have a problem that you were unable to handle on your own.

Bottom line is that you will be calling negative attention towards yourself as well as to him and it is just better if you can avoid that if at all possible.

Again - it seems perhaps a grievence may be in order for you. Just understand it won't be all sweetness and roses with him getting a spanking for his bad behavior the next day. You will be escalating the conflict, not deescalating it.

We don't know you. The fact that your other co-workers seem to be telling you to back off is advice you should not ignore.

My final advice to you would be this: Before you rush off in a huff to the HR department, write out your case, in specific detail, with facts, times, etc. and then ask your (non-work) friends to evaluate. Once you have done that - schedule a meeting with your boss and very nicely give him one more opportunity to deal with it. Allow him to be on your side, assisting you, Eg: I think I'm going to have to file a claim, I wanted to have you review it with me and see if I missed anything or some such non-threatening ruse

The best thing you can do is get this resolved at the lowest level possible. Use your charm, use your wits - but don't be afraid to do what you need to do. You go girl!!

3:11 PM, April 01, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Years ago, I read a statement by a woman that explained perfectly why women are angry.

I believe it was Mrs. Statler (not sure) who said:

"I married beneath myself. Every woman does".

Think about that. It makes sense, explains a lot, and is a good description of a first rate competitive strategy.

3:55 PM, April 01, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

One last thought (from me again). You kind of glossed over this point: he wrote this creepy note to the company brass about something I wrote, something unsigned by me that he first poked around earlier and illicitly found out that I was the author of.

It's not going to matter ONE WHIP that he found it illicitly. He found it. It seems from what you wrote that this "unsigned thing" doesn't show you in the most flattering light.

You imply that it's no big deal - but it seems to be the meat on the bone of contention. Be sure you are on VERY SOLID ground about this issue and everything it reprsents BEFORE you escalate this at the HR level.

If you are not on solid ground, if is not something about yourself that you want pounded into everyone's view of you, then do not take this to the grievence level. You may win a victory by him being reprimanded for doing what he did - but at what cost to yourself by having this issue kept on the front burner?

4:02 PM, April 01, 2007  
Blogger ditchthebitch said...

"I married beneath myself. Every woman does".

Correction: 90% of all women marry 'up,' i.e., men with higher incomes. As far as these same men being 'beneath' them, well that's all in the average American woman's head of course, which has nothing to do with reality. Ironically, the quality of women in the U.S. has gone down to zero because of Feminism- imagine Susan B. Anthony looking at the women today and realizing that all of her efforts for the equality of women would lead to nothing but dumb-downed, diesased whores with all with and charm of open sewers!It's mind boggling- and the baldface fraud of women today- Jesus. There is no doubt that 95% of American women are going straight to Hell when they die, my only question is, are they FROM Hell?

3:50 PM, April 03, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ditch - you have said much more about yourself than you have about the women of America.

Perhaps if you went somewhere besides the strip clubs and whorehouses to meet women you might have better luck.

6:56 PM, April 03, 2007  
Blogger ditchthebitch said...

"ditch - you have said much more about yourself than you have about the women of America.

Perhaps if you went somewhere besides the strip clubs and whorehouses to meet women you might have better luck."

Classic Female denial- try to change the subject by trying to point a finger at the source. Actually sounds like you don't get out much. (HA) FYI- starting about 10-15 years ago ALL American women turned into VD buffets and whores- from the cheerleaders all the way down, thanks to Feminism. How's the weather under your rock?

7:39 PM, April 03, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Nice friends, Helen. *points up*

4:23 PM, April 05, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"women turned into VD buffets and whores"

Gosh. All by themselves?

9:16 PM, April 05, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

On a related note:

http://rachelnorthlondon.blogspot.com/2007/04/felicity-jane-lowde-of-oxford-has-been.html

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