Complex analysis: Men are slobs!
Reader Jeff emails an interesting story about Australian men being sexual turn offs to women:
The author of the article concludes that it is not women's fault, but men who are "going to seed:"
Women are generous in praising men's virtues? Men are cocooned in marital bliss? What crack has this woman been smoking? Male bashing is alive and well and women are the majority of complainers when it comes to being disgusted with the opposite sex. Women may not be totally to blame when it comes to lack of desire, but to say that men are just unattractive slobs is hardly a suitable answer either. The author talks about a lack of complexity of human responses and then gives a simplistic answer to the problem herself. Maybe she needs to take her own advice but that would require actually treating men as human beings, a trait she obviously lacks.
Australian men are complaining of a lack of sex. Could they be the problem, asks Wendy Frew....
As sex therapist and social commentator Bettina Arndtexplains in her book The Sex Diaries, many men - though otherwise happily married - are starved of the sex and affection we should all expect from our relationships.
Low libidos, long working days and onerous household chores have been cited - among other things - as reasons why some men want it more often, only to find their women cringing at their creeping hands in the bedroom.
In 2007, Arndt asked 98 "ordinary Australian couples" to keep a diary for six to nine months. They were meant to confess the very personal issue of how they negotiated sexual relations with their partner...
But somehow in the ensuing debate, the complexity of human responses has been ignored when it comes to apportioning blame. It seems it's all a woman's fault.
The author of the article concludes that it is not women's fault, but men who are "going to seed:"
Let's face it, many men lose their attractiveness.
Cocooned in married bliss, well fed and watered, with someone else changing the sheets and washing the towels, they quickly go to seed. Their beer bellies swell, body parts droop, and their breath goes sour, and don't they get all of us in the mood.
How many men fret about their wardrobe? How many take particular care with personal hygiene? Many men think three days of facial growth is sexy, far more than for whom it actually is. They think an old Rolling Stones T-shirt is chic, when it's just plain shabby. And most wouldn't be seen dead in a gym, claiming it's too metrosexual, too homosexual or anything but the truth: it's just too hard.
Most women are generous in praising the virtues - physical and mental, if not emotional - of their menfolk [my emphasis]. Few women would demand their partner visit an Ashley & Martin hair-loss clinic, for instance. Hair loss is a natural, if unwelcome, process and bald men can look hot. And which woman would insist on their fella dyeing his hair or having pec implants?
Women are generous in praising men's virtues? Men are cocooned in marital bliss? What crack has this woman been smoking? Male bashing is alive and well and women are the majority of complainers when it comes to being disgusted with the opposite sex. Women may not be totally to blame when it comes to lack of desire, but to say that men are just unattractive slobs is hardly a suitable answer either. The author talks about a lack of complexity of human responses and then gives a simplistic answer to the problem herself. Maybe she needs to take her own advice but that would require actually treating men as human beings, a trait she obviously lacks.
Labels: hypocrisy, men's issues
posted by Helen at 5:47 AM
62 Comments:
As opposed to women who often gain a lot of wait, stop caring much of their appearance, and demand to have it all but without any stress of doing any of it.
Although I would not use the same words to describe the challenge, I would have to agree a bit with the author of the article, but not necessarily about the praising part. Some men could use a new wardrobe, drop a few pounds, and see a dentist if they are looking for increased interest from the opposite sex. But, then again, a fair number of women gain a substantial amount of weight as well.
Remember, we are talking about Australia here, which is a place where many of us don't visit that often. The few Australian men that I have met actually do have these challenges as well as a hearty taste for the brew, another turn-off which is an issue we don't seem to have here in the US and sure as heck would be a huge turn-off to me. I can't believe that one didn't come up.
If one wants more sex I'd suggest have a honest discussion with the spouse about the what the issue is. If appearance and hygiene are the challenge then do something about it.
Men should keep themselves up and they have to also put ummph into earning (even women who deny that sometimes let their true feelings out later - ask a stay-at-home dad).
I also think women should keep themselves up, but in this egalitarian world they should also be putting umpph into earning. 10 hours at a perfume counter is not ummph.
Most women are generous in praising the virtues - physical and mental, if not emotional - of their menfolk.
Australia must be a very different place.
There may be some truth in Cham's comments about Australian men. During the 1982 World's Fair in Knoxville a friend of mine worked at the American pavilion. He had lots of fun that summer with Australian women who, he said, were very happy of spend "time" with a man who was civil, pleasant and clean.
It's the ongoing objectification of men that does it, I tell ya! That, and the unrealistic expectations created by porn. Who could live up to all that?
The fastest way to kill sex in a great relationship is to get married.
After that, many women seem to want to have nothing to do with it.
(anecdotal evidence, of course)
"Most women are generous in praising the virtues - physical and mental, if not emotional - of their menfolk."
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One of the major complaints I hear from men - and also experience - is nagging on the part of women. After the relationship has gone on awhile, or especially after a few years of marriage, it doesn't matter what the man does, the woman finds fault and criticizes him. Sometimes to the point of driving the man crazy. I don't understand why many or most women engage in that behavior, but I know that they aren't all "generous in praising the virtues" of a man after a few years of marriage.
Ridiculous.
Why are we reading a story from Australia and applying US cultural analysis? This makes as much sense as pulling an article from the Al Jazeera web site and wondering what "crack they're smoking" when women complain that guys no longer "man up" and grow beards.
OK, maybe that comparison was a bit over the top. Australia IS a western culture so there are plenty of similarities, but it is a DIFFERENT country and it's WAY far away. Direct comparison to the US (or even the UK) is dicey at best. Canada, on the other hand, is fair game. It's the Maple Leaf State after all.
Hmm my snark level is high today... Must be Friday!
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I think this Australian Bettina Arndt represent the same scientific level as her American colleague Dr. Cherry Lee. This is a quasi science, which is very typical in the field of women research.
Sorry, but there is some truth to that article. My ex did just that here in America! He refused to go to the gym with me, instead drank beer. Just pretty much let his hygiene collapse. Yukk. Granted this is one case, but its certainly not only Australia.
In fact I dated an Australian for awhile and his hygiene was not so good either. Hmmmm...
Vicki wrote: "Sorry, but there is some truth to that article."
Two case studies are not sufficient to proclaim truth.
Now, I understand that a partner who lets their hygeine go bad or gets portly creates problems for themselves and their partner, but the article in question is, well, questionable. 8)
Men and women are different (duh) and it takes a certain amount of understanding and compromise for us to make things work together. But it is a mutual process when it works at all.
Trey
You can't blame just ome in this all the time. I've been married twice and both double their weight in 10 years. Yes I said Doubled and that is a huge turn off too. So you see it's just not men who let themselves go.
Oh what was I thinking? It's mens fault they gain weight. Sorry I was thinking out of line there for a minute.
TMink:
I would like to see the results of the study. Anybody have it?
And on another completely unrelated matter...here we go again.
Cham, sorry I was unclear, I was speaking metaphorically about how two relationships was not enough to generalize on.
My bad.
Trey
Tmink:
I'm thinking that too often we allow some writer to make generalizations about some study that exists somewhere. Then we make generalizations about the writer's generalizations. I'm thinking that the media, or bloggers, or psychological experts think the general population is too stupid to analyze data and come to their own conclusions about it. Perhaps more study publishing and less speculating about the results would be advisable. I have more faith in my fellow man than they do. For all we know, most Australian men could be slovenly pigs with hygiene problems.
no doubt a lot of people let themselves go after marriage. It's not that this study probably doesn't report a factual situation, especially after the comments made in here about Australians.
What IS disturbing is that rather than generalize to the obvious: that one partner letting themselves go can be a huge turnoff to the other one; that this researcher found it necessary to limit it to the male halves of the couples studied.
Plenty of women let themselves go once they are married too. That deserves a mention.
Agreed plenty of men and women let themselves go, but who is to define what is perfect? Anyways, I do not agree with Bettina Arndt, however without any scientific studies to fall back on, from what I have seen and know, Aussie men are crude, have a serious lack of manners, and yes there is a lack of hygiene but lots of Aussie gals who are just as bad and need to make friends with soap. I think it is a lack of self respect amongst both genders. I know there are men here in Australia who obviously don't fit into this category as anywhere in the world.
Okay, so we have established all Aussies are dirty, and the marrieds do not get enough sex. Anything else? It does make sense. Dundee was more at home in mud than a bath, nice knife though.
Low libidos, long working days and onerous household chores have been cited - among other things - as reasons why some men want it more often, only to find their women cringing at their creeping hands in the bedroom.
There's a very easy solution to the problem of not getting sex in a marriage: don't get married to or have kids with a westernized woman. This way, if you find that you are with a woman who has a low libido or finds work of any kind a sexual turnoff (how many men find going into work every day to be a sexual turnoff?), you can easily just move on to the next woman.
"There's a very easy solution to the problem of not getting sex in a marriage: don't get married to or have kids with a westernized woman. This way, if you find that you are with a woman who has a low libido or finds work of any kind a sexual turnoff (how many men find going into work every day to be a sexual turnoff?), you can easily just move on to the next woman."
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That's exactly what men have to get.
And no, it's not exactly symmetrical between men and women. A woman can just leave a marriage - she basically has no real commitments. It's just a question of how much of the man's assets are going to be transferred to her. She complains when the bum didn't have anything.
On the other hand, a man is not just going to walk away from a marriage. Not so fast, partner. If you've got some bucks, they have to be fairly divided.
If you don't get married you keep your leverage. I know that marriage shouldn't be about leverage or the like - but it is in real life. Many men have told me that the little demure thing they married has become a tyrant who has simply taken over the home - and he can't do a damn thing about it if he doesn't want to lose everything.
So, married men, cut your nuts off, put them in her purse and put on your plow harness for her. And get to work while she's watching Oprah and shopping.
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The really bizarre thing is that I have seen men (and not just a few) who seem to WANT to just be slaves. They trudge to work, do what the boss says, and then trudge back home, and do what the wife says. If the wife leaves, the regret the loss of their master, even if she was a cruel, nagging, abusive master.
WTF?
You're allowed to be a free man. You're allowed to have your own thoughts and even think about yourself. You're allowed to organize your life the way you want to.
JG -
"A woman can just leave a marriage - she basically has no real commitments. It's just a question of how much of the man's assets are going to be transferred to her."
Really? My first wife 'just left'. I got everything; house, car, daughter. She got squat, including no visitation.
How does that jibe?
This also happened with my brother and a friend named Rocky. Both of them got full custody of their step-children as well as all assets.
While I agree the system is stacked, it ain't 'only one way'.
Did she friggin' BUY the house and car?
If she did, I don't know what a Real Man is doing taking things from a girl, but I doubt she did.
So she walzed out of the marriage the way she came in. That means no commitments - she either walks free and clear, or she gets some of your stuff. She didn't have to PAY YOU alimony or the like.
But men sometimes do.
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And a woman has to really work at it not to even get visitation with the kid. They mostly get full custody.
There's more to your story, there has to be. There is something drastically wrong with that woman.
And you picked a woman like that. I wouldn't be proud of it.
that this researcher found it necessary to limit it to the male halves of the couples studied.
Liz I think that the author's comments are in response to research that she perceived to blame women for the lack of sex in their marriage. But it's not clear which claims she's reacting to, and also she implies that there's some other body of research that's also blaming women.
Her conjecture that it's mens' slovenliness which motivates this behavior is simply glib. The fact that women tend to lose interest in sex once in a committed relationship, and as they get older, is a long recognized phenomenon. She simply doesn't like that it's women who are to 'blame' for it.
What I've noticed is that many marriage/relationship counselors seem more willing to advise women to make an effort to have sex more frequently. That they should make a deliberate effort to maintain a healthy sexual relationship. This was probably conventional wisdom until certain Feminist perspectives on the matter came into vogue.
Bettina is full of it, over 20 million population and she interviews a measly 98? LOL, a real indication...NOT.
The same guy the wife doesn't want to screw when she finally divorces him she is shocked to find the same fat slob gets plenty of action from other divorced woman. It doesn't take to much, shower and shave once a day, brush the teeth, comb the hair and use deodorant. If the guy can do that and has a job somewhat higher than minimum wage he get what he needs.
Then she goes to the gym, get serious about the diet and viola! In a few months she is looking hot and starts banging some other woman's ex slob.
A lot of women let themselves go with regard to personality.
A lot of 20 year olds are fun to be around, a lot of 45-year-old women are bitchy, bossy, demanding and combative.
Time for my early morning watering and feeding!
***SATIRE ON***
Let's face it, many women lose their attractiveness.
Cocooned in married bliss, well financed and pampered, with someone else working overtime and doing all the heavy lifting and auto maintenance, they quickly quit exerting efforts. Their baby fat swells, body parts droop, they get a frumpy mom haircut and smile turns to a frown, and don't they get all of us in the mood.
How many take particular car to look good for their husbands like they did for their dates? Do women think three weeks of leg hair growth is sexy? They think old old pajamas is fine, when it's just plain shabby. And most wouldn't be seen dead in a gym, claiming her man should love her like she is, but the truth: it's just too hard.
Most men are generous in praising the virtues - emotional, if not physical and mental - of their women. Few men would demand their partner visit a better hair-stylist, for instance. And which man would insist on his woman growing her hair long?
***SATIRE OFF***
That would go over well, wouldn't it?
It's amazing to me how many women bemoan their lack of freedoms and all the oppressions they think they endure, all the while they parade through life getting away with doing and saying things specifically because they are women--things that would never be tolerated from a man, and may very well get him unemployed, if not in serious trouble with the legal system.
JG --
No. *we* bought the house and car. She worked as well.
The rest of your small post is erroneous, as you simply play your same song, which doesn't apply.
"There's more to your story, there has to be."
That's the point, really. There's more to all stories. My description was shallow, much like the ones you give. It and the other two were simply offered as a counterexamples to demonstrate that the state of affairs is not 100:0. It may not be 50:50, but it's not absolute either.
"And you picked a woman like that. I wouldn't be proud of it."
When lacking an intelligent comment, drop into flip ad hominem. I've mentioned I have my daughter and I've mentioned she's the joy of my life. Without that marriage, I wouldn't have her. Sometimes wonderful things cost pretty pennies.
Trust and JG - Excellent and accurate comments.
Blogger MB said...
A lot of women let themselves go with regard to personality. A lot of 20 year olds are fun to be around, a lot of 45-year-old women are bitchy, bossy, demanding and combative.
4:46 AM, April 04, 2009
This, unfortunately, is quite accurate also. And we all know that not giving a fat, sullen, combative 45-year-old woman the same type and degree of attention that an attractive, upbeat 20-year-old receives is terribly wrong and unjust. Right? Men - they're so rotten and unreasonable.
Dealing with said 45-year-old women in the work place is pure hell. Some guy who's defaulted to "Yes, dear" at home leaves those of us who have to work with his Mrs. in a position where we often have to act as a surrogate husband/mate to give her the attention and drama she craves.
Either pander to her massive ego or be subject to tantrums, passive-aggressive nonsense and sabotage. Opting out helps the hubby but it's torture for those of us who have to work with her - especially if she's our boss. Pure hell, I tells ya, pure hell.
"Some guy who's defaulted to "Yes, dear" at home leaves those of us who have to work with his Mrs. in a position where we often have to act as a surrogate husband/mate to give her the attention and drama she craves."
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You hit the nail on the head with that one. I have experienced that too - all too often.
The man at home has already caved in, so she thinks the same no-compromising, demanding routine is going to also crush the men at work. But it doesn't - it just makes working with her a constant combat zone.
Yukkk. I just avoid women like that to the extent possible.
And I wonder who all these Casper Milquetoasts at home are. They are apparently legion.
Yes Dear. No Dear. Yes Dear, you are oppressed as a gender. Yes Dear, I am privileged as a man. Now may I finish my Honey-Do list and then go to bed? Please?
Those men are sickening and the big joke is that outwardly many are presenting the RealMan(TM) persona. To the outside world, not to the Domestic Boss, of course.
Sickening.
Without the inspirational influence of Crocodile Dundee, this tragedy was inescapable.
When lacking an intelligent comment, drop into flip ad hominem.
LOL.
Nothing like watching person A, who contributed a post of pure snottiness, sarcasm and snark, accuse person B of "Ad Hominem."
Pot. Kettle. I'm sure you know each other.
Urp!
Pete -
Please point out the snottiness, sarcasm or snark in my post. It's right up there and anyone can scroll up and read it.
Ill bite.
The snottiness is in having not even an elemental understanding of statistics.
Olig:
You aren't agreeing with the groupthink, that is your crime.
MensaRefugee --
What statistics are you talking about?
Cham --
Yeah, I'm guilty of that with some frequency.
Blogger Cham said...
Olig: You aren't agreeing with the groupthink, that is your crime.
10:21 AM, April 05, 2009
Your agreement with politically correct orthodoxy is the very definition of groupthink. For you to claim the opposite is absurd but not surprising.
Olig - Being deliberately thick does not enhance your arguments nor does it fool anyone.
For you to say "My wife just disappeared after our divorce and took nothing and my half a dozen divorced male friends had the same experience" just doesn't ring true. Sorry. The statistical evidence shows that almost no divorces play out that way. The woman almost always gets the house, a fat chunk of the man's income, custody of the children, etc.
If that really was your experience, congratulations, but don't run that story as if it disproves the mountain of contraindicating, legitimate statistical evidence (and the personal experiences of the majority of divorced men we all know) on the subject and expect people to just eat it up.
I'm of half a mind that Olig is a woman, but manginas lurk everywhere as well :/
"I'm of half a mind that Olig is a woman, but manginas lurk everywhere as well :/"
---
I never thought that before but - surprisingly - I was also thinking that about this thread (that Olig might be a woman trying to post as a man). In any case, he/she combines a distinct lack of empathy for men with an enhanced sense of what "real men" *should* do.
tweedburst/MensaRefugee/Tether --
Ah, more ad. It takes only one example to counter an absolute argument. That is all I did.
tweed - post a cite chum. Simple as that.
m/teth - Sniff. I'm so upset. You two real men don't appreciate I don't react to women with complete vilification. That's how a real man would act! Like little boys with their club in mom's basement. Keep it up. Pretty soon Reality### will welcome you with open arms.
"Most women are generous in praising the virtues - physical and mental, if not emotional - of their menfolk"
Don't know about 'most' but my wife always praises me in public.
In private, "the thought of kissing you disgusts me."
Dennydog, are you being facetious, or are you telling the truth?
For your sake, I really hope you are joking.
A lot of 20 year olds are fun to be around
Really?? Where might I find "a lot" of these "pleasant to be around" 20-year-olds? And please note that I don't think spoiled, me-centered, endlessly blabbing women are pleasant to be around. I'm also assuming you're talking about the U.S. or some other Western country; if you're talking about a country with a more patriarchal culture then I apologize for the misunderstanding.
Its difficult to let a mangina/lying female brat have the last word. So ill compromise with myself by saying the above and not responding directly.
=]
Sooner or later, men are just going to get sick of all the endless blather and editoriazling from women and opt out. Then women will be left on their own.
We see who lasts longest.
Unscientific stats:
I was in the Navy. I never got to Australia, but I know many shipmates who did.
They just about uniformly said if you held a door open for a woman and treated her politiely, you were set for your time there. It wasn't hurt by the scores of women waiting at the pier when the US ships arrived.
Other comment: Aussie men's priorities: Beer, mates, beer, beer, football, beer, mates, football, mates, football, beer, and...women.
Put her first, and she'll take you right home.
Most telling statement from a submariner: "No one leaves Australia a virgin...no one."
Could those non-scientific observations may also shed some light on the topic...
"no doubt a lot of people let themselves go after marriage"
I was thinking about no-fault divorce, and how it relates to this issue. In the old days marriage was for life and less about love than it is now (if you believe surveys of single people and what they were looking for even in the 30s compared to now, when then it was all about being a good provider and assertive and other evolutionarily stable traits), but it seems when you start thinking your partner is "trapped" and you own them, you can easily start to get lazy about maintaining a healthy relationship and making the other person happy.
But now, the other person has options - they can leave. And the old ways of "letting yourself go" don't work anymore.
So even while some say no fault divorce has destroyed the old institution of marriage, maybe the new version of marriage will become stronger because of it, because you have to keep trying or it will fall apart. Sure you were supposed to always keep trying before too, but how many did?
It try to tell my girlfriend this but it just makes her upset :) She thinks it means I'll leave when she gets old. I try to say no it means I'll keep trying to improve myself even after I'm married.
But now, the other person has options - they can leave. And the old ways of "letting yourself go" don't work anymore.
Whatever the case may be, that line is closer to the truth if person is replaced by person. A man does not get off scot-free.
Hmmm, endless blathering, no... I don't think I like that to much. Sounds painful.... Is there a difference between endless blathering and mindless blathering? Nope..... I don't think I like either one so I guess I'll just avoid both.
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