Friday, March 03, 2006

Do Schools Have Jurisdiction over Kids on the Internet?

This is a tough one and it is hard to say how I feel about it (Hat Tip to Treatment online). A teen in California and his friends were suspended in February for making (and viewing) threats on

A middle school student faces expulsion for allegedly posting graphic threats against a classmate on the popular Web site, and 20 of his classmates were suspended for viewing the posting, school officials said.

Police are investigating the boy's comments about his classmate at TeWinkle Middle School as a possible hate crime, and the district is trying to expel him.

According to three parents of the suspended students, the invitation to join the boy's MySpace group gave no indication of the alleged threat. They said the MySpace social group name's was "I hate (girl's name)" and included an expletive and an anti-Semitic reference.

A later message to group members directed them to a nondescript folder, which included a posting that allegedly asked: "Who here in the (group name) wants to take a shotgun and blast her in the head over a thousand times?"

Because the creator of a posting can change its content at any time, it's unclear how much the students saw.

Treatment online had this to say about the case:

Chances are, the California middle school student, who authorities will thankfully not mention by name due to his age, will not be reinstated. The threat of violence, and the graphic nature of the threats made to a specific target take this case above and beyond the more questionable calls that districts have had to make in the past. These new technologies are presenting administrators with new challenges every week. School districts must respond with very specific guidelines about what they expect from students both while they are in school and while they are at home. The debate will most likely hinge on whether the internet, as some folks in Littleton argued, can be considered part of the overall learning environment, and therefore when students post harassing, mocking or even threatening things online they are in fact disturbing that learning atmosphere. There will not be any easy answers, and districts will be forced to be flexible and learn along with parents. Discussing these issues with students may help create a more open dialogue and educate decision makers about some of the attitudes and behaviors that they need to understand.

I think my uneasiness with this case is that the 20 classmates were suspended by the school for viewing a message by the boy who put out the threat. Did they suspend any of the kids who previous school shooters told about their crimes? For example, many studies found that the school shooters told classmates about their plans and left clues that could have warned of the attacks. However, I have never heard of the classmates who knew the plans being suspended, arrested, or held accountable for what they heard.

What do you think? Should schools have the right to expel or regulate their students on the internet outside of the school setting?


Blogger Luther said...

they have some cool stories today

Check them

4:05 PM, March 03, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What to do? Well I don't know without more info about the threats. Sorta like not seeing the cartoons. If it amounted to a criminal act the victim must be protected.

4:12 PM, March 03, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Liz here from I Speak of Dreams. School suspensions for MySpace behavior have been occuring with regularity for about 15 months. Some in my opinion have been valid responses (example, kids posting photos of drinking, when they've signed a no-alcohol contract) some have been quite questionable (suspended for critical comments aabout the school).

The Electronic Freedom Foundation has a page on Student Bloggers' Rights

Here's the Wired Mag MySpace Cheat Sheet for Parents

danah boyd's conclusion to her AAAS lecture:


Youth are not creating digital publics to scare parents - they are doing so because they need youth space, a place to gather and see and be seen by peers. Publics are critical to the coming-of-age narrative because they provide the framework for building cultural knowledge. Restricting youth to controlled spaces typically results in rebellion and the destruction of trust. Of course, for a parent, letting go and allowing youth to navigate risks is terrifying. Unfortunately, it's necessary for youth to mature.

What we're seeing right now is a cultural shift due to the introduction of a new medium and the emergence of greater restrictions on youth mobility and access. The long-term implications of this are unclear. Regardless of what will come, youth are doing what they've always done - repurposing new mediums in order to learn about social culture.

Technology will have an effect because the underlying architecture and the opportunities afforded are fundamentally different. But youth will continue to work out identity issues, hang out and create spaces that are their own, regardless of what technologies are available."

4:25 PM, March 03, 2006  
Blogger Henry Cate said...

"What do you think? Should schools have the right to expel or regulate their students on the internet outside of the school setting?"

Yes to the first half of the question, and no to the second half. Schools should be able to expel students if there is a reasonable concern about safety. Schools should have no control or authority as to what children do in the privacy of their own homes.

A big part of the problem with public schools these days is they are trying to do way too much. It seems like almost any time there is a problem people propose that we fix it by teaching children in the schools. So teachers are teaching sex education, death education, environmentalism, self esteem …etc.

As Jim Collins says in "Good to Great" one of the most important things to being successful is having a clear focus. Public schools today don't have a single focus, they have dozens.

The primary focus for schools should be to teach children the basics of an education. Children need to be taught how to read, write, math, history, science, and so on.

Schools should not be involved in trying to control student's behavior off campus.

5:11 PM, March 03, 2006  
Anonymous Mary Ann said...

I agree that the suspension of the 20 was off base. If you suspend youth for viewing information, then how can you rely on youth to come forward and tell what they know? You're asking for them to turn a blind eye to something serious and then you're going to slam them later for not being more in tune to what was going on.
If someone didn't view this MySpace site, and the person carried out the threat, they would not have known there was a problem.

5:16 PM, March 03, 2006  
Anonymous Teresa said...

Someone who poses a threat to another student or group of students should certainly be expelled.

But - how far are schools going to go in regulating what is done outside the classroom? Just because a student "viewed" the site does not make them any kind of accomplice nor does it make them guilty of a crime.

After all - if you start suspending them for just viewing certain sites - where does it stop? Pretty soon you'll have schools mandating monitoring software on home computers so they can keep track of what the kids are looking at... 1984 here we come.

What if certain schools find say... Instapundit offensive and find a way to determine that their students are visiting there. I realize the content isn't the same - but it's the "monitoring" quality of what the schools are doing that is wrong.

The students violated no law by visiting the site. They didn't even violate the law by not telling anyone about it - and how many thought it was just a stupid joke? No - unless the school can show a clear violation of a law, or that these students pose a physical threat to others, they have no right to suspend anyone but the child who made the threat. If I were one of the parents of the other students - I'd be getting all of them together to file lawsuits about invasion of privacy etc.

5:52 PM, March 03, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is ridiculous to punish the kids who went and looked-unless they added their own threatening comments, which makes them as guilty as the original poster--who is guilty of threatening someone's life. The student murderers of the past decade have highlighted the very real need to take these threats seriously. There was a similar case in Athens, Georgia just a few weeks ago-a student threatening a teacher, that time.

These kids are using venues such as MySpace and Xanga to bare their souls (and sometimes more.) I monitor the postings from our local high schools in order to find out what the darlings are all up to-and my, my-parents, do you have any idea (how many of your daughters are experimenting with lesbian sex)? Despite all of the education to the contrary, many of them provide a stunning amount of personal information out there for all to see. I wonder if they truly understand that they are publishing for the entire wired world (and making it very easy to physically locate them)?

6:02 PM, March 03, 2006  
Blogger Assistant Village Idiot said...

There are easy analogies without having to make it an internet/technology problem. If a student stood up in front of others at the mall, or at a local park, and advocated shooting someone 1000 times, the school would have the right to keep the threatened student safe by removing the threatening one. As for the listeners, an explanation of how their attention actually encourages deviance should suffice for a first offense.

The partial anonymity of the internet creates an illusion for children that they are completely anonymous -- hence their vulnerable confessions and belief they are beyond reach. But public discourse is public, even if your intent is to remain anonymous. People used to wear sheets over their heads to be anonymous, too; but there is no equivalence in saying "you can't prove it was me" and "no harm was done."

10:42 PM, March 03, 2006  
Anonymous Sithkitten said...

First we tell teenagers you can't insult others, draw guns, or think bad thoughts. Now we tell them, you can't read bad things either. Don't you think that teens need an outlet for violent thoughts? Or maybe they should just hold it in until they snap. As far as the readers, I'm just reminded of Nazi book burning. Let's take Antigone and Oedipus off their reading lists too. Oh, don't forget Romeo and Juliet. Those stories might cause suicidal and homicidal tendencies. Children and teens can't live life in a bubble. It's okay if they draw or write about how they feel. They need to release some of their aggression in a constructive, rather than destructive, manner.

12:36 AM, March 04, 2006  
Blogger Captain Zarmband said...

I cannot think of any reason why the person who posted the threats on the forum should not be expelled from the school.

The matter of the other students who viewed this material is rather different. Since they could not have known what was on the post how can they be held resposible for its content? Kids often use these forums and it is impossible to know what each post's content consists of before viewing. This being the case anyone who reads it cannot possibly be held responsible for anything inappropriate.

It's a bit like mailing these threats in the post to people in plain envelopes that give no clue to the package's content. You could hardly blame someone who opened such a package could you?

4:03 AM, March 04, 2006  
Blogger jw said...

I'm with the majority here: The poster is expelled and the lookers are told they should have reported and nothing else, suspending them was wrong.

I might add that the men's groups are saying this was harshly handled because it is male on female: I don't know if that is true ... it might well be the case: There's some supporting evidence from other cases which tend to make me think schools have a double standard in that way.

4:26 AM, March 04, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Hi Liz,

Thanks for all the links--I especially like Boyd's conclusions and have to concur that teens are using MySpace as a kind of hang-out, much like the mall or other teen gathering place.

One of the major problems with our society now is that kids are so tightly controlled and supervised wherever they go, treated like babies and given little responsibility that they don't know how to act when confronted with adult privileges. And with good reason, many teens seem to lack good judgment because they never had a chance to learn it. It is a kind of vicious circle and one that can only change as we teach children at younger ages more about personal responsibility and at the same time, quit overprotecting them to the point where when they do get a taste of freedom, they will resort to anthing.

7:38 AM, March 04, 2006  
Blogger dadvocate said...

One of the major problems with our society now is that kids are so tightly controlled and supervised wherever they go, treated like babies and given little responsibility

I agree completely. We also many times come down too hard with punishment/consequences when they screw up. When I was in high school in the late 1960's, we did all the "usual" stuff which included minor vandalism and sometimes fights. If caught in the vandalism, we had to fix or pay for what we had done. With fights, we were told to stop and maybe got detention if it was at school.

We boys used to do a thing called "Titty Twister" to each other (never to girls). At most a teacher would tell us to quit if we were caught. Now, at least in some places, kids get time for it. I can't help but believe these sort of thing breed a lot of hostility and contempt towards authority figures which could be avoided if authority figures were more reasonable.

9:49 AM, March 04, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...


Yes, I agree that one of the problems is hypocrisy in terms of punishment. Sometimes, particularly in schools, kids get away with anything--bullying, harrassment, etc. with no punishment and then you go bang bang with your finger and you are expelled. It makes no sense and teaches kids that consequences are not commesurate with actions. No wonder they are so confused. When I was a kid, they had a smoking pit at school but it was considered "uncool" and fewer kids smoked. Now that it is seen as a "crime" more kids are picking up the habit. The hostility towards authority figures does play a part in kids anger and frustration and eventual acting out. It is important to be fair in dealing with kids and the school authorities often have a knee jerk reaction to things, rather than a calm and rational reason which exacerbates discipline problems.

9:56 AM, March 04, 2006  
Anonymous Alfred E. Neuman said...

What I find truly annoying is that you see much of the restriction of children's actions being fueled by baby boomers and other generations that had no such restrictions--and were fine. No baby boomers wore helmets when riding their bikes, but now they want laws passed requiring that todays children MUST wear such gear. And so on.

I can't help but believe that children today see the utter hypocrisy of their parents and teachers who talk constantly about the 60's or the 70's, with sex, drugs, rock & roll, no seat belts, and on and on, and then turn around and demand that their children not do ANY of these things, ever. And children get pretty annoyed with hypocrisy.

10:14 AM, March 04, 2006  
Anonymous jwra said...

I can think of no legal basis for the schools to have any jurisdiction over activities on the internet except when conducted on school premisis. With respect to threats or other illegal activities that's why we have a justice system external to the schools.

11:14 PM, March 04, 2006  
Blogger Assistant Village Idiot said...

sithkitten -- the idea of needing an outlet for violence or you'll "snap" is an old wive's tale. The opposite occurs. People who rehearse violence commit violence. (Not that I consider reading Antigone to be a violent act). At my hospital, we used to have punching bags on the units so people could get their aggressions out. It didn't work, and made things worse.

It was an interesting and plausible theory, sprung in part from psychoanalytic thought. It hasn't held up.

11:22 PM, March 04, 2006  
Blogger Svolich said...

I was a student at Tewinkle in the mid '70.

I was regularly beaten up. Some of the teachers encouraged it. One memorable incident was in a music appreciation class, of all things. I'd asked when we were going to move beyond acid rock (Deep Purple was a favorite) into classical, jazz or big band.

The teacher's assistant - an 8th grader - slugged me. When they took both of us to Vice Principal Fisher's office, I was accused of standing up in the middle of the fight and yelling "fuck." And that would get me expelled.

I said "Is that what it takes? FUCK! FUCK! FUCK!! Now expell me!!"

He didn't. I transfered to Lincoln middle school, which was *slightly* better.

If they actually suspend these kids for looking at a website, from home, it's going to set up a horrible civil disobedience situation.

3:47 PM, March 05, 2006  
Blogger Jerub-Baal said...

Not knowing the level of involvement of the students who viewed the matierial and were disciplined, I realize I am opinionating without enough info.

Were all the students who viewed the messages treated the same way? Were the students who viewed it participating (commenting, encouraging et cetera)?

Two things that smack of patent unfairness and over-reaching by the school here. Are they treating all who viewed it equally, and if those who viewed it (and didn't speak up) are being punished, isn't that a form of blaming-the-victim?

10:02 AM, March 06, 2006  
Anonymous Johanna said...

Hello everyone. My name is Johanna, I'm 17 years old but only in 7th grade (long story bout that) I go to a private school, and I am having a debate in Speech class. I have to write a speech of why schools shouldn't be allowed to suspend or expel students for what they have on their myspace (such as language, saying they dislike/hate their school, pictures, and so on...) but there is also another debate team that have to write about why they should suspend or punish students for what's on their myspace.

We weren't given a choice of what debate team to be on, but I am very glad to stand up for the students with a myspace.

I strongly disagree with what the schools are doing. What we do at home should be OUR business, and our PARENT'S choice of punishment for the serious things that go on with their children and the internet. Should it really be the school's business to see what's happening outside of school??? I think NOT! What I feel like they're doing is reading our somewhat diary we share with friends, and our feelings and thoughts about things, things we don't want school to be a part of.

I was suspended from school earlier this year for writing "Hillcrest (my school) sucks" on my school book covers, and also for the language I used... such as the F word and more. I accept that what I did was wrong. Bringing that kind of language and showing my hatred for the private school was wrong. So what I did was take all my thoughts about my school, to home. I said how I hated my school on my myspace. The next thing I know, my FRIENDS and school mates are getting expelled and suspended for those kind of things! This just means that they're reading our "diary", something that was not made or meant for them to view.
And call me crazy, but isn't school supposed to teach us spelling, math, science, grammer and all that??? It seems they care more about our personal life, than they do about our grades! It seems we have very lazy teachers who prefer not to push us to try harder, yet at the same time are sending kids to the school counselor for mental help! Asking us questions about how our life at home is going! Well how bout teaching me how to spell fine-didaly-dandy, so that I can answer your questions when * I * want to tell you!

3:23 AM, May 01, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The First Amendment says there shall be no law "...abridging the freedom of speech, or of press..."
In this respect, I think students criticizing their schools, even with unpleasant, or derogatory words,should not be punished. Doing so abridges, or deprives students of their freedom of speech, which EVERY American is guaranteed in the Constitution.
However, any threatening comments should be examined more closely. But, by law officials not school administrations. Like jwra said, "that's why we have a justice system external to the schools."

As for the situation previously mentioned, the students that viewed the website, as long as they didn't also threaten anyone's life, shoud NOT be punished. But, the student that made the website absolutely should.

As a junior in high school myself, I understand the need of privacy. We need a place where we can express our feelings without punishment. However, threatening someone else's life definitely goes too far.

I do find it ironic that some students choose to express their inner feelings on the internet, which potentially the entire world has access to. I have a myspace page, but I definitely don't consider it my "diary" space. You never know who could read it. Some people compare reading a student's profile or website to reading their diary, but it's the student's choice whether to expose their "diary" feelings to the entire world.

Bottom line: Schools don't have the right to punish students for their internet activities outside of school. If a student threatens someone else, the school should notify the authorities.

4:18 PM, February 04, 2007  
Blogger Dale Longrove said...

Do you think schools should have jurisdiction over student's personal blogs? (Not hosted by the school, not made on school computers, nor internet connection, nor during school time)

4:25 PM, April 01, 2008  
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