"...when it comes to men, you may be better off not talking about it at all?"
The Frisky: Having Relationship Problems? Try Talking Less:
I have never understood why people want to talk to a husband or boyfriend constantly about "the relationship." Even though I am a woman, if someone did this to me, I would really be disgusted and bored. Sure, if there is a specific problem, address it in a non-accusing way, but to be talking "about your relationship" constantly seems to me to be a way to doom it, not enhance it.
What do you think?
For as long as many of us can remember, we’ve been told that if we’ve got a problem, particularly a relationship problem, the answer is to talk it out. Go to a therapist and talk to a shrink about your issues. Boyfriend or husband acting distant? Well, you better talk to him about that. Not sure what to do about a problem in your life? Get on the phone, send an email, heck, Twitter it while you’re at it. It’s all talk, all the time. But what if sometimes, particularly when it comes to relationships, and especially when it comes to men, you may be better off not talking about it at all?
I have never understood why people want to talk to a husband or boyfriend constantly about "the relationship." Even though I am a woman, if someone did this to me, I would really be disgusted and bored. Sure, if there is a specific problem, address it in a non-accusing way, but to be talking "about your relationship" constantly seems to me to be a way to doom it, not enhance it.
What do you think?
posted by Helen at 7:09 AM
35 Comments:
I think there's good talking, and not so good talking. Sometimes people just want to express their feelings, without reflection, or the capacity to listen to how others feel - this probably increases the alienation.
Other times a bad feeling is the result of a misunderstanding, and only a explanation can resolve the unhappiness.
Sadly, our culture now values the expression of intense negative emotions by uninformed and dishonest people, like talk radio hosts. This has spread to society as a whole.
Talking to people who enjoy causing problems for you and only respond to violence seems like a waste of time.
The piece in The Frisky makes a good point: we men don't believe what others say; we believe what others do. I believe that talking is greatly overvalued as a means of solving problems. It won't fix a leaky faucet or get rid of weeds in a lawn, and I don't think that talking about an amorphous thing like "the relationship" is going to make "the relationship" any better. If I'm doing something that you don't like or not doing something that you think that I should, tell me and I'll do my best to change it, but I'm not sure that I even know what talking about "the relationship" is.
Hi Helen,
some comments I made didn't come up so I didn't comment for a while. But THIS topic? LOL!
I used to be known as 'Mr. Relationships' in my circle of friends. In 95 I did a class called 'The Landmark Forum' and I spent a year really working on 'relationships'. My wife decided to actually be nice to me for 6 months and I was very happy. Lots of people used to come to me for assistance. It all boiled down to one sentence.
"Ask your wife/husband what it is you can do for them to have them be happy, then do it if you can."
Note. Not 'if you want to'. You signed up for 'marriage' so 'do it if you can' is the order of the day. 100% of men I gave that advice to tried it. About 10% of women. So much for women wanting 'the relationship to work'. They only want it to work as long as they don't have to do anything. I have had men married for 20+ years cry on my shoulder in gratitude at me taking the time out to work with them on their marriages. I have had two women thank me for being 'at cause' in the births of their children by counselling them and their husbands. In the end, marriage is really easy to do. It's just that western women don't want to actually contribute much any more.
Helen. Just by the way. I can't find an email address on your site. If you email me at globalman100@yahoo.co.uk I have some links you will want to read but that are not yet 'public'. It includes the video evidence of the crimes being committed by the magistrates in the FC. I gather you have an interest in that area. One of the few women who do.
Also, you can delete this post if you wish.
My fav#1 said to me:
"Women do not know what makes them happy. They need to be told what they can have by their man. Told to be happy about it. THEN a woman will be happy."
I believe her. I did the 'talk about the relationship' and 'talk about us' thing because my wife told me that is what she needed from me. I used to call these 'the sky is blue, the grass is green, the kids got fed today' conversations. When I was working in the US in 1990? My phone bill was higher than my mortgage despite the fact we had email contact with each other.
My ex even claimed "I love my mother more than you love your mother because I talk to my mother more." Duh? Love is not a function of how much you talk.
Women have been brainwashed by the PTB via the mainstream media that they have to make the men 'talk about the relationship' all the freaking time. Yes Helen. It's a pain in the freaking arse. Us men really dis-like it. My answer to my wife, when I got aggravated about the endless 'talking about our marriage' was:
"I MARRIED you. I gave my word I would love you and care for you. Every time you want to 'talk about this' you are questioning my honour, my integrity and my word and I don't like that. If you have a problem write it down and I will solve ANY problem you are prepared to put in writing. But if you can't be bothered to write it down? I can't be bothered to solve it."
At the end of our 18 year marriage? When I asked her to write down all outstanding issues? She couldn't find ONE problem to write down and attacked me as 'oppressing her' trying to 'force her to write down problems' when they were 'too nebulous' to write down. THAT's how men are treated today Helen. Women will call us 'oppressors' for asking them to write down their problems on paper so we can solve them. Talk about brainwashed!
I think most husbands will say that this is one of the enormous shifts that happens right after the wedding. The relationship changes over night, and what used to make you enjoy the relationship and want to commit to this one person for life gets taken away, and you're told constantly its because you do ____ or don't do ____.
Really what happens is you no longer have to treat a man well to keep the benefits of a husband. When dating, he could dump you and you have no recourse. Not so after marriage... you can sue his ass into oblivion. So mountains are made out of molehills.... hence the nonstop "talking" about everything, even things that should be trivial.
I learned a long time ago that I could talk about doing something, or I could do it, but I couldn't do both at the same time.
Talking about your relationship in the sense that most people do it carries an implied threat that belies a lack of commitment. The other person must change or I will leave and take my Me-Centered Universe with me. Go right ahead.
If you want to be happy, commit to your relationship and make the other person happy. Unless you are in some kind of toxic relationship they will automagically respond by making you happier.
(If it is a toxic relationship, stop talking and leave.)
It's not so much the talking, it's the 'revisiting'.
I have long maintained -- and told darn every woman I've ever dated -- that when it comes to relationships, talking is highly overrated.
Married the gal who agreed.
@Robert said... I learned a long time ago that I could talk about doing something, or I could do it, but I couldn't do both at the same time.
______
The person who "talks" about the relationship most is usually the person who is doing the least to feed it... largely because they are wasting all their energy on blaming the other person.
I agree with you. I think talking about anything too much means focusing on what may be a side effect of something else. Even if it is on target I am not sure that an excessive amount of talk will help. Someone probably needs to get a bit of a life. Most relationship problems work their own way out on their own anyway, if both are committed to it.
I used to try to talk through things but found that I just dug deeper holes, what with my penchant for keeping in mind I was speaking to a woman, my devoted adherence to political correctness, and my sensitivity to a woman's perspective (absolutely tongue in cheek there). Wow, epic failure that. Even with sincere attempts though, which most were, on my part. *mum*
The best description I ever came up with is this: "A relationship is a living thing. If you talk about it and analyze it constantly, it's like vivisection: the analysis might work, but the creature will die."
And here's one for the ladies. We men have three states: silence, mirth and rage. Operate accordingly.
Oh, and one day, when you ask him for the umpteenth time what he's thinking about, don't be shocked when he says something like: "I was just wondering what your sister's like in bed" or "Just thinking how I'd spend the insurance money if you died."
Because occasionally, we do think about such stuff.
Yup!
Kim, I'd say ... can it with the "we" stuff.
I've seen your Real Man stuff before and I'm just not impressed. Some of "us" have something other than your three states.
But thanks for giving advice to the little "ladies".
Kim says:
We men have three states: silence, mirth and rage.
I'm incredibly fortunate to never have met any man that has fit that description. I don't know where you live, Kim, but I feel sorry for your region.
Very disappointing comments
Communication is really overrated. I see irritating older women saying "communication is key" and their humbled husbands try to suppress an eye-roll.
There are deeper currents in a relationship, and (I hate to say it) there is still the old John-Prostitute relationship that raises its ugly head once in a while.
I had a girlfriend that moved in, and she - supposedly - got laid off or fired shortly thereafter. I originally didn't think it was a problem, I would just support her until she found a new job. So weeks and months and then a year go by.
I started feeling:
1) Used because I was paying for everything with my work, and she was power-lounging.
2) Because she had little to do, there was continual pressure to "go on vacation" or "do something fun" or for me to spend, spend, spend for her fun. She would literally come back from a vacation and in a few days start asking when we were going to do something fun. She could have cared less that I couldn't be gone from work so long and I just didn't have the money.
Now the "communication":
If I brought up the topic, she would initially say that she was looking, it takes a while, and she wasn't going to work some minimum-wage job.
Fair enough.
But as time went on, it turned into major deflection - crying, screaming, "you aren't perfect either" and the crown jewel, "real men support their women". Anything but a real conversation. Everything turned into manipulation and deflection.
We both ultimately got what we wanted, but not from discussion. I got rid of her, and she got a Real Man to finally pay for her and her life.
"Very disappointing comments"
******
Well, then add something. Or are you just the "evaluator" and everyone has to be shamed by you.
On second thought, don't add anything more.
As to Kim, his pattern is to make some bizarre statement, usually involving what a real man his is, and then disappear without answering queries.
I wouldn't worry much about him, anymore than I worry about the homeless guy on the way to the subway who starts shouting bizarre crap.
"As to Kim"
Real men are not called 'Kim'. Proof? Kim Hughes. One time Captain of the Australian cricket team. Only captain I ever saw cry like a baby about leaving the job. Babies who are named 'Kim' at birth by their obviously abusive fathers are not men.
Reminds me of the Johnny Cash song 'a boy named Sue'. Baby boys would be better off called 'Sue' or 'Wendy' than Kim. Kim is one of those 'half way names'. His Dad must have really hated him.
This comment has been removed by the author.
Wow....did anyone go and read any of the comments on the article itself?
"countrystubborn
wrote on September 22, 2010 @ 2:48 PM
As someone who has an MA degree in Communication Studies I would love to disagree with this completely. However, I agree with it 100%. The more I attempted to talk things over with the guy I was seeing recently the more we tended to but heads."
What the f*** are they handing out 'degrees' for now. An MA in 'Communications'? Do they give out 'MAs' in the use of toilet paper as well?
Communication between men is really easy. You tell the guy how it is. If he doesn't listen you might try a few verbal 'smacks between the eyes'...but in the end...if he does not want to listen then you walk away. That's what I do. As far as 'relationships' go what women want to 'talk about' is what the man is going to do for them. When was the last time a woman actually told a man what SHE was going to do for HIM...I think we are awaiting the first time aren't we?
'Relationships' are simply not possible with western women which is why I have 'relaxionships' instead. They work.
Recently I talked to my fav#4 who gave me a bit of grief. I told her it was real simple. "In my world now the woman is going to do whatever I tell her to do or she can leave." She got 'all upset'. Told me how I was an MCP. Told me she would never speak to me again. Blah, blah, blah.
Anyway....we meet up for a 'breakfast/brunch' to 'talk'. She tells me that she is 'independent' and will not tolerate a man who says 'the woman has to do what he man tells her to'. I say 'fine, then we quit, but I reiterate how I would not ask her to do anything that would cause her any injury or problem, just that she has to do what I want to get the benefits I offer'....well, you should have seen the back-pedalling. It was all just a 'mis-understanding'. She didn't really 'mean' what I thought she meant...blah...blah.
So I let her 'save face'. Now? She is far more obedient and willing to please me.
I was talking to a mate the other day and we agreed. As much as we don't like doing it. Women have to be 'alphaed'....and when you 'alpha' them so they know their place and know they are with an alpha they are actually much happier. A woman 'talking about the relationship'. Please...turn on the 'talking clock'. I'm done with 'talking about relationships'. I will 'alpha' women and they will be happy.
I get pretty bored with that kind of talking, though I have done it. I think it's usually a sign that "the relationship" is not really based on anything substantial.
I used to honestly think that men who said things like "you have to be a little deaf for a marriage to succeed" were must misogynists.
Now, unfortunately, or fortunately, I get it.
Here is a dynamic I have seen, a LOT:
A man brings up a topic that is of interest to him. Like when are you going to get a job.
The discussion doesn't go in the same way it goes with men.
With women, it seems to start out with the statement by the man, then the woman picks at a minor point in the man's statement or brings up something out of the past. Any further attempt to make a statement will be met with the same type of response: She is going to "win", and it just involves finding some weak point in what he is saying.
The man gets frustrated, and she grins. And she continues to sponge off him, for example.
Don't put up with it.
The second point is that they will make any point on their part to be the way "everyone thinks".
To continue with the example of her sitting on her fat ass while you work, she will make it very believable that every other man just wants his beloved to sit at home while he works. And there must be something very, very, very wrong with you if you dare challenge that.
It will be extremely believable, as well as the threat that she will instantly find some other guy who will pay for her if you don't want to (although they will never be that direct, it's just hinted at).
In fact, they will never be direct about any damned thing. It's just circling you, finding faults with you, never TALKING to you.
i think that when a woman wants to talk about "the relationship" it`s a warning signal.
some girls use the inherent fear men have for them to get more stuff, trips, acceptance of changes in her desires, behaviours etc. whan they mention the relationship.
men then have the choice to assert their position, or adapt.
when i was a kid i read part of a book by henry miller, because i believed that was what adults did. in this book miller suggested that everybody is afraid of everyone else, on one level or another.
where does this fear come from?
my belief is that is comes from being taught that we are responsible for others.
obliged, if you will.
and so this obligation leaks into all facets of our lives, and we tolerate things out of obligation.
and when i say we, i mean men.
women play by different rules.
my mother`s husband told me right in front of her that he used to have a bentley, but that he couldn`t afford her and the car.
she just smiled.
Dr. Alistair,
"my mother`s husband told me right in front of her that he used to have a bentley, but that he couldn`t afford her and the car. she just smiled."
That's so funny. Our 'equal women' are killing the golden goose. Since western women claim it is perfectly acceptable that in my case my ex was given 95% of the the proceeds of my 26 years of labour I am telling every young man I meet that 5% is the new 50% if you are a man and DO NOT FORGET THIS. Young men are amazed when I tell them that.
What effect is this having? 'Mr. Truth' and I went to dinner on Thursday night here in London. We ate and drank ourselves silly and laughed at the sluts in the restaurant trying to leech onto the men they were with. On the way back to his hotel (and my tube station) a 'poor woman in the street' approached us for a few coins. We had just spent GBP120 on eating and drinking and having a good time. We politely declined. But I was one millimeter from telling her "Why don't you go ask my ex-bitch for some of HER money, she got 95%. You women applaud women getting 95% and then you still beg off us MEN? F*** off. Go beg off your 'equal woman'.".
I was in a shop the other day and bought a bottle of water. It had a pink top on it so I asked what the pink top was about. The girl told me that for each bottle sold with a pink top 1 cent would be given to breast cancer research. So I told her to put it back and give me one with a blue top. She was shocked but did as I told her. When was the last time women donated money for prostrate cancer research? Never.
Western women disgust me. And they should disgust ALL men because western women are happy to laugh at the way men are abused in the FC.
"I want to talk about our relationship?" F*** off. How about we talk about how you support women committing perjury, kidnapping, extortion and theft? Ask a woman THAT question. Ask a woman if she is willing to sit on a jury and punish women who commit these crimes. Let's talk about 'equality before the law'. Ever heard women talk about THAT? No. You haven't. And you NEVER WILL. That's how hypocritical women are now.
Once again, Tom Leykis gave a woman eight words for a successful marriage:
"Long hair, stay slim, frequent sex, shut up."
So far as I can tell, the obsessive "talking about the relationship" stuff is someone trying to talk themselves INTO the relationship - asking for constant affirmation for something they should have solid confidence in. If someone initiates more than three talk about the relationship talks in the space of a year, one of you is doing something wrong vis a vis the other and no matter who it is you should dump them.
Topher,
One of the women on spearhead asked me privately why men have such low expectations of women. I explained in some detail with a lot of personal examples how women give men so little that even when we have very low expectations they can't even make THAT.
I asked my ex-wife for one thing. There was only ONE thing that I would not tolerate in our marriage and that was dis-honesty. I asked her "Please stop lying to me, just be honest". Nope. Women can't even make THAT hurdle.
I posted onto here http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/lifematters/blog/ask-sam the proposal that women might actually make it to the 'honest' hurdle if they want relationships with men. After all, men don't have relationships with MEN who are dis-honest to them. It is even necessary to have 'honour among theives'.
If you can believe this, not a single woman backed up the idea that being honest might be helpful in a relationship. Western women now believe they have a 'right to lie', along with their 'right to murder and steal'. On the other hand? My eastern lady friends are scupulously honest. My fav#1 told me to my face that if we agreed to not have a baby and we agree to marry and she later changed her mind she would cuckhold me. She told me to my face that she would be prepared to do that. You have to admire the womans honesty to say that. You really do.
That she was willing to put that on the table knowing that my response might be "well, if that's how you feel we can't marry" tells you exactly how honest she is. It would have been nothing to her to loudly proclaim she would never do that but she wouldn't lie to me.
When you can comment on the busiest relationships blog in a country of 20M people and not one woman will back up the suggestion that 'honesty is the best policy' in a marriage? What would ANY man be doing getting married? How stupid is that?
Doesn't "we need to talk about our relationship" usually translate into "you're in deep trouble, mister"?
Late to the thread, but wanted to say that talking "about your relationship" means stepping outside your relationship to see it abstractly.
i.e. it means to bracket away the relationship itself.
And that means, for the duration of the conversation, you're no longer really "in" it.
Do enough of this in a love affair, for a long enough time, and you will kill it dead. Men, as usual, are right to dread it. Women need to be more forthcoming about what they think is wrong -- but since that requires recognizing, respecting, and moving toward a male and his perspective, I can understand why feminists would tell women to do no such thing. Best to frame things to that men will be on the defensive. Always.
Feh to all that.
Are women still saying things like that? "Relationships"??? How cliché. It's 2010, for crying out loud.
I figured out many years ago, that all the talking in the world was not helping anything, because my mother was going to shrinks all the time and it didn't help her. They just listened, took her money and gave her pills.
Carol,
"They just listened, took her money and gave her pills."
That is so funny. I have no idea why so many people go to shrinks. Getting drunk with your mates works much better!
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