Telegraph (via Hot Air): Women 'view modesty as sign of weakness':
Research suggested that females have found the rise of the “more feminine man”, or “metrosexual”, a big turn-off.
Women see modesty amonsgt men as a poor character trait that could adversely affect their employability or earnings potential.
posted by Helen at 8:17 AM
20 Comments:
A quote from the article:
"The study of 132 female and 100 male student volunteers found"
So the title should read "Female students view modesty as a sign of weakness?"
Did these students all attend the same university? Were they all from similar socioeconomic backgrounds? Were they all about the same age? If so, then I am not buying these students represent the population at large.
I don't pay much attention to "studies" from areas like sociology or psychology anymore.
The people conducting them usually have some agenda, they don't follow proper procedures (although they may pretend to) because it is all about backing up their beliefs anyway, and lots of them are just downright stupid, I can't think otherwise when I see the ways in which they draw conclusions and ignore other likely explanations.
This study is mixed up like a bowl of nuts. Since when is metrosexuality considered modest? Fastidious fashion-consciousness is flamboyant, not modest.
Now if they are talking about men who straight up act like women, they just spent a bunch of money discovering common sense.
They are conflating ideas - modesty is not a female or male trait.
Once again Topher beat me to it. Metrosexual = modest? WTF? Another pointless "study."
Historically and cross-culturally, men have been stereotyped as more independent and self-focused than women.
[...]
By contrast, dominance is reserved for men and prohibited for women. Thus, gender stereotypes are comprised of four sets of rules and expectations for behaviour consist of both 'should’ and 'should notes’ for each gender.
Agendas much? Same old bullshit from feminist academia.
I might also add to my original post is that when one is in college one is often young and busy studying, not necessarily putting a lot of time and energy in to mate selection. What might be alluring and sexy to a female college student might not be so alluring and sexy to a working woman who is looking for a lasting life-partner. I would think a modest grounded man would be quite a turn-on, especially one that cared a bit about their appearance.
On a side note, through a strange turn of events I performed a job as stylist last week for a group of successful middle-aged men during for a photo-shoot. I would say some macho men care very much about the way they look as they should.
In my case modesty would indicate that I am a liar. A person would only need to take one look at me and realize this. A short conversation would further prove my point.
I don't know about the weakness stuff but few people like liars.
;-)
I saw a reference to this study a couple of months ago. It's not clear that the audience rating the "interviewees" was all-female...it may have been a mix of men and women. Note also that the rating was being done in an employment situation, not a dating situation, and one can't automatically assume that what works in the one would also work in the other.
It would be interesting to repeat this with the evaluations being done by people who *actually hire people*, both line managers and HR people, and see if the results are consistent.
TO: Dr. Helen, et al.
RE: Heh
Research suggested that females have found the rise of the “more feminine man”, or “metrosexual”, a big turn-off. -- Article cited by Dr. Helen
I'm reminded of a feminine version of that book from the 80s, Real Men Don't Eat Quiche. It was titled Real Women Don't Pump Gas.
In it, it stated that a real woman doesn't date a guy who has longer hair than she does or whose blue jeans have more embroidery.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[The more thinks change, the more they remain the same.]
So this is why the Donald Draper character on Mad Men is the 'perfect' guy. Women want him no matter how flawed he his.
I'd like to know what their operational definition of "modesty" is. Personally, I think it's attractive when a man doesn't constantly puff himself up. On the other hand, I'll be irritated by a guy who's constantly putting himself down and looking for reassurance. (I'll be irritated if a woman does it too.) I'm guessing I'm not the only one who makes these not-so-fine distinctions.
Some women might look to that, though I have serious doubts about that call. I think the real case is they rejected modesty by embracing feminism. A man who is modest, or as I call it private, will not support their notions of showing their tits and ass, meaning less flirtation and play time outside of the main relationship. Women today might look at actual cash or earnings, but rarely look to future. And even those women are somewhat rare. What that suggests are the socialistas and social climbers... a rarer and rarer breed these days as the middle class dies. Just the rich and elites have that kind of... luxury of choice.
Just a thought.
TO: cinderkeys
RE: It Works
I'd like to know what their operational definition of "modesty" is. -- cinderkeys
RE: Immodest Modesty
Personally, I think it's attractive when a man doesn't constantly puff himself up. On the other hand, I'll be irritated by a guy who's constantly putting himself down and looking for reassurance. -- cinderkeys
On the other hand, we have the sort of people manifested by one each General Adams, formerly commanding general of an Idaho National Guard armor-heavy brigade.
He like to express his modesty in the form of....
Please explain it to me young major. I'm just a simple soldier, trying to get along. -- as expressed in a operations order briefing in his TAC
At which point all those who knew the man began doing 'turtle' impersonations. [Note: They knew what was about to happen to the hapless major.]
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[No battle plan survives contact with the Commander.]
"The study of 132 female and 100 male student volunteers found, however, that men did not view female modesty negatively."
Sample size waaayy too small to prove anything. This is the usual 'take an unrepresentative sample and extrapolate it to the overall population' that our lords and masters are so want to do.
It's simple. Women want alphas for sperm for their babies and the betas to pay the bills. It's called 'the single mother benefit' and that's exactly what it is doing in the UK. Girls getting themselves pregnant to 'bad boy alphas' and the beta smucks paying the bills via 'income taxes'. Thats one real good reason to stop volunteering to pay income taxes.
PS. As far as 'modesty is a sign of weakness'? Us men are also told that 'bragging' is not ok too. In fact, for the last 40 years you can pretty much see that no matter what a man does he is 'wrong' according to the nearest woman and not matter WHAT a woman does the nearest man is still wrong.
I am reminded of a case where a woman reporter was trying to get an interview with Kimi Raikonen(from memory). Kimi was having none of it and was walking his own path and she was following. A small boy wandered into their path. Kimi, being an F1 driver, walked around the boy. The woman smacked the kid in the head with her folder and knocked him to the ground. You guessed the headline. Kimi Raikonen knocks small boy to ground. This despite the fact the video attacked to the story showed Kimi did not touch the boy.
Men are too modest we are weak. Men are too strong we are brutes and neanderthals. Basically the PTB are waging an endless ware of criticism of men and our women are just peachy with it.
Since the study was done in the UK, it's apparent that by "modest", they mean "humble".
Perhaps the study respondents were turned off by the constantly self-deprecating "men".
"Research suggested that females have found the rise of the “more feminine man”, or “metrosexual”, a big turn-off."
And yet, women have no one to blame but themselves. Marlene Dietrich said it best: "Women are always trying to change a man. And once they've changed him, they don't like him anymore."
On to real modesty:
If you're accomplished/a badass, modesty is a form of chivalry - putting down your power to make nice with society. That can be attractive.
But modesty in the vein of not standing up for yourself when challenged or threatened is not attractive to men or to women.
Topher,
"But modesty in the vein of not standing up for yourself when challenged or threatened is not attractive to men or to women. "
LOL!! Standing up for myself when crimes have been committed against me by two magistrates, one registrar, one judge and my ex seems to be exceedingly unattractive to western women! ;-)
I managed to get myself banned off www.tpuc.org/forum yesterday for being 'sexist' because, you know, the truth is so sexist. ;-) The truth is very un-attractive and the immodesty of speaking the truth is also very unattractive. ;-)
I saw this story before, Dr. Helen. Thanks for giving us another opportunity to discuss it.
First off, could we please desist with the idea that one can speak for all women or all men or all anything else? Women are not a monolith, and neither are men. I'm certain some women would love to marry James Bond or Cary Grant, and many others want the quiet bookworm who talks about his feelings a lot. (I won't get into right now which category I'm more likely to fall under.)
Secondly, we don't need any more damn labels to stick onto people. (I agreed when Michael Stipe said that he thinks "labels are for canned food.") There's a stereotype about men and boys that they're generally slobs or barbarians who like to hit each other with sticks while rolling around in the mud in their underwear. Then, when it's time to go out to dinner, they wet their hands and run their fingers through their hair to comb it. If you do anything beyond that, the stereotypers first assume you're gay (not that there's anything wrong with that, of course), and if they find out you're not they'll give you the new label of "metrosexual." If you fail to live up to one stereotype, they'll hit you with another one, rather than reconsider whether they should be pigeonholing people. I was never a fan of John Edwards politically, but I didn't give him any crap over his $400 haircuts while he was running for the presidency. If women can throw down four Bennies at the salon -- then go for it, man. And I spend $18 at The Hair Cuttery, so I'm not speaking from experience here.
Next, and this will come as a surpirse to many women: men don't merely say they have emotions because they think it will impress you or turn you on. Men have emotions because THEY'RE HUMAN BEINGS. I'm always disturbed when I find a woman who talks about her feelings or cries or needs a shoulder to lean on (about every day) suddenly turns around and ridicules a man whom she sees doing these things even once.
When people first began to move away from these stereotypes years ago (prompting the sort of backlash we now find in the Telegraph piece), it wasn't merely because the stereotypes were unfair (which they are, to both sexes), but also because they're simply not true. Society must stop telling men that they're not to have emotions or to admit that they have them. Maybe men's average life expectancy will start to rise if they don't insist on internalizing everything.
bmmg39,
"Society must stop telling men that they're not to have emotions or to admit that they have them."
Well said. When my dads mother died the turn out for the funeral was the largest in living memory in our town. I was voted to give the 'Grandchildrens eulogy' out of 26 grand children. It was one of the two greatest honours in my life. (Along with the same job at my other grandmothers funeral.)
During the Eulogy I also cried in grief for the loss of my beloved grandmother. I delivered what many assembled considered the best Eulogy they had ever heard. I was getting compliments for the rest of the day. My cousins and I spent many, many hours on it. I was merely the presenter of their love and words.
After the burial, as we were walking to the cars, my Dad strolled beside me and said he was sorry for the Eulogy. I asked him what he meant. He said "I thought you would be able to handle it, but seeing you cry, I saw it was too much for you, that it was bad for you." I stopped him and looked him in the eye and said "Do you not realise that eulogy was perfect?" He stood there for nearly 20 seconds I think....before he finally said "Yes, I see." And he did. We walked off with our arms around each other. A new level of relationship created between father and son. He realised in that instant that it was, indeed, perfect for his boy to cry when presenting the eulogy for his beloved grandmother. More men would be well advised to tell their boys it's ok to cry.
@bmmg39:
There's a stereotype about men and boys that they're generally slobs or barbarians who like to hit each other with sticks while rolling around in the mud in their underwear.
You mean you don't? :-]
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