Confessions of a beta female
I started following some posts on Pick Up Artists (PUA) at Megan McArdle's place and saw that Vox Day and Roissy had joined in to argue about whether or not PUA's are "girlie men" (Megan McArdle seems to think they are). I don't think PUAs are "girlie men," but if they are, so what? They are just using sexual power like women always have and now the women are upset that their turf is being invaded.
Great topic but instead of spending time reading their posts, I got sucked into a quiz at Roissy's place. For those of you not familiar with his work, Roissy is a blogger who discusses the techniques of PUAs. If you are not familiar with this dating approach, check out books such as Neil Strauss's The Game: Penetrating the Secret Society of Pickup Artists
or Mystery's The Mystery Method: How to Get Beautiful Women Into Bed.
So I took the quiz at his place on the "Dating Value of Women." I know, I'm married, but it sounded like fun, so why not? With my low score, it turns out, I'm a "classic beta female:"
Apparently, I would be a real loser on the dating scene. Funny, that's not how my dating life was when I was younger, but then, I was probably too much of a beta to see it. Seriously, I think this quiz is pretty invalid for some people. It doesn't take into account outliers who do not fit the criteria. Apparently, alpha females don't curse, have an average to just above average (but no higher IQ), and wear heels over three inches.
None of those traits describe me. I never thought of myself as a beta female but I guess I'll just have to get used to it. It seems to have brought me happiness so far,and having to stop cursing and wear high-heeled shoes would make me miserable.
Truthfully, the test is chauvinistic towards women and gives high scores to men without manners, but then, maybe men who are picking up women want sterotypically feminine women and women want jerky guys. Go take the test if you would like to know if you are alpha or beta on the dating scene. If female, go here or if male, go here, and if you are brave enough, share the results with us.
Update: Ann Althouse: "Fuck that test." Neither one of us is going to make it as an alpha.
Great topic but instead of spending time reading their posts, I got sucked into a quiz at Roissy's place. For those of you not familiar with his work, Roissy is a blogger who discusses the techniques of PUAs. If you are not familiar with this dating approach, check out books such as Neil Strauss's The Game: Penetrating the Secret Society of Pickup Artists
or Mystery's The Mystery Method: How to Get Beautiful Women Into Bed.So I took the quiz at his place on the "Dating Value of Women." I know, I'm married, but it sounded like fun, so why not? With my low score, it turns out, I'm a "classic beta female:"
-4 to 14: Classic beta. Your hot friends always gets hit on first, but if you really tramp it up you can snag a slightly better than average guy to take you home for a single night of commitment.
Apparently, I would be a real loser on the dating scene. Funny, that's not how my dating life was when I was younger, but then, I was probably too much of a beta to see it. Seriously, I think this quiz is pretty invalid for some people. It doesn't take into account outliers who do not fit the criteria. Apparently, alpha females don't curse, have an average to just above average (but no higher IQ), and wear heels over three inches.
None of those traits describe me. I never thought of myself as a beta female but I guess I'll just have to get used to it. It seems to have brought me happiness so far,and having to stop cursing and wear high-heeled shoes would make me miserable.
Truthfully, the test is chauvinistic towards women and gives high scores to men without manners, but then, maybe men who are picking up women want sterotypically feminine women and women want jerky guys. Go take the test if you would like to know if you are alpha or beta on the dating scene. If female, go here or if male, go here, and if you are brave enough, share the results with us.
Update: Ann Althouse: "Fuck that test." Neither one of us is going to make it as an alpha.
Labels: Pick-up artists
posted by Helen at 9:43 AM
82 Comments:
I ended up with 21 points but I lost 10 at the beginning due to my age. The questionnaire was pretty stupid. I can't remember when I didn't get the guy I wanted. I'm more of an approacher than an approachee.
I tried to do this for fun, but I had so much disdain for the pick up approach that I stopped. Not my world view.
Trey
I got a huge, whopping -1, lesser beta.
TMink,
No, not my worldview either. I think it's important to look at people as people and more than the sum of their parts.
However, I think the PUA techniques have some place for those men who have trouble even looking women in the eye who perhaps tend towards being a bit on the Asperger's side. Men who are rejected frequently and don't know how to approach women may learn something.
One big problem with all this alpha/beta nonsense is that the pick-up artists pick up women who want to be picked up. All their theories and fancy approaches completely fail when confronted with a women who sees right through them, like my oldest daughter. The most amazing thing is how oblivious alpha males are to their phoniness--they really, really don't see it. (Roissy, frankly, being a prime example.)
Now that said, Roissy does make the great point, whether he intends to or not, that if you want to get laid and are willing to accept shallow women, then simply acting like an alpha male is sufficient. However, that observation is, itself, extremely telling.
Were I not married, my problem would be that I have no interest in women that go weak kneed over alpha males. Even if they are sexy and beautiful, within a few minutes I want to puke (and that beauty vanishes in my mind.)
I scored a 5 or 6. Never liked going to bars much, too noisy and smoky. I can only think of one time when I went with the intent of trying to pick someone up. A friend had talked me into it. I went with the intent but ended up not trying and left as soon as I could.
The thought of a one night stand doesn't have much appeal for me. I wouldn't rule it out with the right person if it fell in my lap. But, I'm not going to put any effort into making one occur.
The easiest part of game to market is getting shlubby guys laid - it also gets good audiences for Dr Phil and whatnot. But PUA (getting one-night stands, etc) is a relatively small subset of the power and applications of game, game being the understanding of gender psychology and social dynamics.
Fraternities have been teaching societies for this kind of social dynamics instruction for decades. And you thought it was just about getting drunk and passing the women around!
Roissy's site is about half pickup advice and half deep musings on society. It's very interesting to read and he keeps it balanced well.
Google "LTR game" or "Dave in Hawaii" or "married man sex life" for the vast implications of game for people who are married or otherwise uninterested in standard pick-up. men have literally turned their marriages around by making deep but simple adjustments to their behavior and "frame."
Game is SO much more than "picking up drunk chicks at the singles bar."
As to Helen's rating, she's a rarity among women (one who empathizes with the opposite sex) so I would take some pride in rating low on a poll of stereotyped female value.
As Helen has seen, McArdle's posts have ignited quite a discussion...I think McArdle's premise is silly, both because it's just silly ad hominem ("you guys are so GIRLY!!") and because she has no real expertise to analyze this pop psychology. She's an economics blogger, and she's just shot her credibility on that with a lot people who read it and said "this woman's a whining fool, why should I listen to her on economics and finance?"
McArdle's reaction is predictable - no one likes to be told they've been figured out, and people get defensive when others threaten to take away their power. Women who think sexual power is their birthright tend to resent men learning to improve their social skill. Women who enjoy a man who knows how to push her buttons all the right ways tend to enjoy the ride.
Now, Helen has good standing to analyze evo-psych as a movement.
Pretty dumb test. I been happy life-long just to have a rare encounter and conversation with a woman who understood math, physics and chess, who dared to motorcycle and hitchhike alone.
If one visits a nightclub/bar that is known for the singles scene then I would suspect anyone who doesn't have open herpes sores on their face to be approached, male or female. If you wish to be picked up or pick someone up please visit a spot that is known for that activity. It doesn't matter whether you are fat, thin, good-looking, or you have "game". Either you are breathing or you aren't, that's all the credentials you need.
Minus 9.
An alpha, though it's best if I just shut up and do what alphas do. My mouth can kill the deal. Yeah, but I enjoyed it when I was gaming anyway. Of course, now that I'm looking for a wife, it's not so easy. Some of it really doesn't work, doesn't attract the right kind, and such.
Is anyone ever really happy with what they are, how it works, and throughout life? Bah. It's just kids stuff pop-psychology anyway.
15, alas. Who can outrun Time? Anyhow, Dr. Helen, I'm pleased to tell you that you misunderstood. A classic female beta in Roissy's lingo does not mean you would be any sort of loser on the dating scene, only that you'd likely play second banana in the average group of women with whom you're out and about. If you can still manage that status at 35+, you're doing very well.
Age reduces dating value for men and women alike, albeit more drastically in the case of the latter. My 40+ male friends usually date women in their late 20s.
As for Ms McArdle, she understands even less about Game than she does about economics, which is more than a little impressive. But it makes sense, given that Game is ultimately a form of sociosexual economics, given the importance supply, demand, subjective value, and opportunity cost play in it.
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Alpha, beta, gamma, omega. Good grief.
I looked over this "quiz" but didn't take it very seriously. I have no idea what my score would be, but then I don't agree with the grading criteria.
Is it all about getting laid? If so, then it's worthless.
I got laid plenty of times in my youth. Now I have a business to run and a mother to take care of. If that makes me a beta or a gamma or an omega, then so be it, in the simple minds of lesser men or women who think with their penises or clits.
I'm worth millions. I think with my bank account.
And I can get laid any time I want. It's just that I'd rather have the money.
All these guys running around, poking their penises into every girl who's willing, are fools. Go on with your bad self, and when you reach my age and are worth nothing, or even worse are in suffocating debt, cry to your penis while you beat it like Appolo Creed, as if your fist was Ivan Drago.
I really don't care. I'm rich. I can live out the rest of my life with nothing to worry about.
I don't carry debt. I don't pay alimony or child support, certainly not for some bastard that isn't even mine. I can do what I want. (Definition of an alpha, by the way, even though I consider myself an omega.)
Why am I not married? Simple. I do not agree to the terms and conditions of the contract. Presumptive paternity is a deal-killer for me. So is no fault divorce.
I'm perfectly willing to invest captital in a woman, a life-partner, a helpmate and a mother to my (our) children. But I'm not about to waste money on some stupid, spoiled, conceited girl, who only wants cash for sex.
Tell it to Paul McCartney.
I accept my responsibilities without question, and do what I have to do. And I'm wealthy as a result of it.
Some penis with a clown hat wants to brag about how often he gets laid? Boy, I had more girls in one summer when I was 17 than you've dated in your life. And that's the damn truth. Only now I have money.
What do you have, debt? A failed marriage, perhaps? Child support payments for kids that aren't even yours? Alimony payments to the prostitute who pretended to be your wife?
Guess that little head on your penis didn't do very well for you, did it?
Alpha, beta, gamma, omega. Good grief.
I looked over this "quiz" but didn't take it very seriously. I have no idea what my score would be, but then I don't agree with the grading criteria.
Is it all about getting laid? If so, then it's worthless.
I got laid plenty of times in my youth. Now I have a business to run and a mother to take care of. If that makes me a beta or a gamma or an omega, then so be it, in the simple minds of lesser men or women who think with their penises or clits.
I'm worth millions. I think with my bank account.
And I can get laid any time I want. It's just that I'd rather have the money.
All these guys running around, poking their penises into every girl who's willing, are fools. Go on with your bad self, and when you reach my age and are worth nothing, or even worse are in suffocating debt, cry to your penis while you beat it like Appolo Creed, as if your fist was Ivan Drago.
I really don't care. I'm rich. I can live out the rest of my life with nothing to worry about.
I don't carry debt. I don't pay alimony or child support, certainly not for some bastard that isn't even mine. I can do what I want. (Definition of an alpha, by the way, even though I consider myself an omega.)
Why am I not married? Simple. I do not agree to the terms and conditions of the contract. Presumptive paternity is a deal-killer for me. So is no fault divorce.
I'm perfectly willing to invest captital in a woman, a life-partner, a helpmate and a mother to my (our) children. But I'm not about to waste money on some stupid, spoiled, conceited girl, who only wants cash for sex.
Tell it to Paul McCartney.
I accept my responsibilities without question, and do what I have to do. And I'm wealthy as a result of it.
Some penis with a clown hat wants to brag about how often he gets laid? Boy, I had more girls in one summer when I was 17 than you've dated in your life. And that's the damn truth. Only now I have money.
What do you have, debt? A failed marriage, perhaps? Child support payments for kids that aren't even yours? Alimony payments to the prostitute who pretended to be your wife?
Guess that little head on your penis didn't do very well for you, did it?
Women truly don't get it. Here's an analogy:
Imagine that you're the "Blues": all you women that you are sitting in the middle of an Oasis in the desert. You not only have enough to drink, but there are offers all around you for more water and more to drink. It gets on your nerves.
And then there are the "Greens": They work behind the scenes to produce all the water in the middle of the desert. But no one really cares. Individual women have enough water, so they are only interested in the "Greens" who can provide much more. Much more water, introduction to a higher class of society ... more money.
The other "Greens" can go fuck themselves, even though they are also providing all the water for the entitled class. The Entitled Class could care less. The class of "Greens" who curry favor with the Entitled Class could care less, because they are getting what they want.
The 99% of the "Greens" who have to simply work their butts off - while the "Blues" sit at home on their fat asses - watching Oprah - should simply engage in social warfare. No more.
Put briefly: Women get bugged because there are too many water sellers in the desert.
Lots of men are simply thirsting to death.
In other words: The big bulk of men will die an extremely lonely life, although they have contributed very, very much to society.
Lots of women will live the life of luxury, but work hardly at all - at most at the silly jobs they deem important - and leave all the work to men.
And yet feminists and women in general are constantly bitching, bitching, bitching that men have it better.
Men work in mining, production, engineering and heavy farming. Women bitch and get most of the money.
I honestly can't believe that men are so stupid. But they are.
I would love to show my list of failed pick-up lines (under the title, "Why Can't I Get a Date?"), but most people have seen them. Except a couple that are rather crude but funny.
Sorry, still under the effects of my Unhelpful Pills. Maybe next post.
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who at least according to his degree and position will earn a lot more than you.
If you had half a brain, you'd know that's not necessarily true. I know lots of psychologists that make more money than lots of attorneys. Helen just got one that's better than you.
TO: TMink & the Good Doctor
RE: World View & Disdain
Try these answers as a mark of my view of this tripe....
1. How old are you?
As if I gave a damn.
2. How tall are you?
5'10" and shrinking.
3. What is your BMI?
I got it from my Father as a birthday gift.
4. How much do you bench press?
Is she REALLY that heavy? Besides, who needs to bench press when they can handle an ACP? God made men. Colt made men equal.
5. What does your hairline look like?
A bobbed pony tail and high thigh burns, dutifully earned.
6. How much money do you make?
Enough to keep me in bourbon, scotch, rye, Myers rum, Steinlager, Stolies, champagne, port, cigars, steaks, coffee, and pate au chocolate.
7. Do you have a car?
A '82 Scrambler Jeep and a red convertible. The latter is my wife's car. I'm looking at getting a third and maybe a fourth. If only the Army would release some of THEIR Hummers.
8. Are you good-looking?
Ask my wives. But the beard makes me look like Sean Connery in The Rock.
9. Have you ever played a leading role in a team sport?
How about jumpmaster for 63 "bat-shit crazy" idiots? Or infantry company commander? Is combat considered a 'team sport'? It's just a tad more technical and bloody-minded.
10. What is your occupation?
Professional killer, at the behest of our rich Uncle Sam. Retired. I only do small jobs of my own choosing, these days.
11. How many friends do you have?
A few VERY WELL CHOSEN ones.
12. How many friends have you met through the internet that you have never seen in person?
I've made a LOT of enemies? Does that count?
13. When was the last time you went to a house party?
I THROW house parties. I throw another one next month.
14. Have people besides your family called you funny?
They laugh at my bon mots. Or at least they get them, based on some of their reactions. Those with wit and education.
15. What is your IQ?
I probably rate a -2.
16. At a party, which happens first – you approach someone or someone approaches you?
I'm an extrovert. YOU figure it out.
17. Have you ever been in a serious fight where real punches were thrown and you felt like you wanted to kill your opponent(s)?
Gee….I thought it went with the job description….
18. Have you ever been arrested?
Not yet. I keep trying, but the police keep thinking it was the other guy's fault.
[Continued in next comment....]
[Continued from previous comment....]
19. You are on a second date with a girl. You go to kiss her. She turns her cheek to you and says “Slow down, I’m not that kind of girl.” You reply:
Never had a past experience LIKE that.
20. You’re chatting up a pretty girl you just met in a bar. After a few minutes she asks you to buy her a drink. You reply:
"As long as it's not that ice tea you're drinking." Bargirls in certain sorts of establishments are renowned for that sort of scam.
21. You’ve just met a cute girl in a club and have been talking with her for five minutes when she abruptly changes the topic to a raunchy conversation about her multiorgasmic ability. You respond with:
Yeah? You sound like my cousin. I don't date my cousin anymore. She's married.
22. The pickup has been going well. Later in the night she leans in and begins making out with you passionately. You feel like a king and your jeans suddenly feel much tighter. Do you:
It usually happened in the day.
23. You go to a bar. Twenty feet away are a pretty girl, a fat girl, and an average guy talking amongst themselves. The pretty girl briefly eye flirts with you. In reponse, you:
Ah yes….the famous 'indirect approach'. Napoleon perfected it at the battle of Ulm.
24. Who do you address first?
Someone else. Probably the party I just left, before addressing the group.
25. After getting the whole group engaged in conversation and having a good time, your target blurts out “Hey nice pink shirt! Are you gay?” You:
I was. But being gay all the time made me unhappy. To monotonous. Now I'm just happy...to be here.
26. In the middle of the conversation you have to pee. You say:
Toss off my drink. Ask if anyone needs a refill. Go towards the bar. Order the drinks and go to the little cowboys room, while the bartender prepares the order.
27. You’ve managed to get her outside your front door. There is obvious sexual tension. You want to close this deal. You say:
It's three am. How about I fix up someone to eat?
[Continued in next comment....]
[Continued from previous comment....]
SCORES
There are 26 points to earn or lose based on the questions asked. The scoring breaks down as follows:
-26: Why are you still alive?
Obamacare hasn't found me yet?
-25 to -20: You’re an omega. Celibacy has its charms.
And you won't ever face a paternity suit. Let alone contract some horrible, incurable deadly disease.
-19 to -15: You actively repulse girls. Your kind will usher forth the sexbot revolution.
Beats sex with 'dumb' animals.
-14 to -10: You’re always getting foisted onto the warpigs.
Pigs have feelings too.
-9 to 0: Lesser beta. You don’t immediately disgust girls; they just don’t notice you. With much painful effort you can redeem yourself.
There's no pain to being yourself, unless you're downright 'evil'. In which case they've got guys with nightsticks and guns and handcuffs looking for YOU as a 'pick-up'.
1 to 9: Classic beta. You catch some girls’ eyes, usually the ones you don’t want. Try not to make fatty fucking a lifestyle.
Try getting a REAL life, instead. If you don't chase them, they'll chase you.
10 to 14: A few attractive girls in the bar will be intrigued by your presence. But you need game to close the deal.
What's the big 'deal'? I've got a wife. And she's a pip! She's a 'librarian'. Think Marion the librarian. Or that article about how hot librarians are in the stacks. It's true. It's ALL TRUE.
15 to 19: Congrats, you have crossed the alpha Rubicon. A lot of cute girls will be pleased when you hit on them. But you can still fuck up by being yourself.
And mothers always say, "Just be yourself." So much for mother's advice.
20 to 25: You’re a natural. Many hot girls check you out and forgive your occasional pickup blunders. You always have a look of sexual satisfaction on your face.
Comes from having a good wife.
26: Super Alpha. Booty sticks to you like bird shit on car roofs.
I can live without bird shit on my cars.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Who can find a virtuous woman? Her worth is greater than rubies.]
P.S. Obviously not these stupid people....
A very high % of male-female meeting-up activity now seems to happen in bars, clubs, etc. In these venues, the more subtle qualities are not likely to come across, hence putting a premium on the more primitive forms of signaling.
"Lesser beta. You don’t immediately disgust girls; they just don’t notice you. With much painful effort you can redeem yourself."
I'm sorry, but I may be confused. Megan McArdle thinks pickup artists are 'girly'. My impression is that they are irresponsible and callous.
I'd bet psychopaths are great at this thing.
I scored like a -4 or -5, making me a lesser beta. Seems to me that the only way one can score as an alpha is to be a total jerk. Since I live by The Golden Rule (treat others the way I wish to be treated), I shall be condemned to betadom...
@ MarkyMark said... I scored like a -4 or -5, making me a lesser beta. Seems to me that the only way one can score as an alpha is to be a total jerk. Since I live by The Golden Rule (treat others the way I wish to be treated), I shall be condemned to betadom.
________
That's where it can drive one crazy. Since I don't condone treating people like crap, so I'll never follow Roissy's advice. On the flip side though, Roissy isn't saying what he thinks should work, only what he thinks does work. He didn't make it so. If flowers and kindness were what worked, he'd teach that instead.
What would someone think of me if I was constantly complaining because my dog wasn't house broken, yet every time he shit in the house I ran over, gave him a biscuit, and scratched his neck? Well that's how many of us regard many modern american women.
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@ Joe said... The most amazing thing is how oblivious alpha males are to their phoniness--they really, really don't see it. (Roissy, frankly, being a prime example.)
__________
I don't think Roissy and those like him care if they seem phony or not. They care that they're scoring.
Which is the irony. They only reason he doesn't care what an individual woman thinks of him is because he cares what large numbers of women think of him. Being an ass gets him laid... if the end result was to die an old, single virgin he would behave differently. Then again, he probably has a better deal in life than most married men, most of whom end up celibate and half of whom get cheated on for a bastard like Roissy.
Tether,
If you really believed what you wrote, why do you keep deleting your posts? Why not leave up your words of wisdom for all of us to ponder on? Just curious.
Hi Vox,
Thanks for joining in the conversation. However, I think I correctly interpreted Roissy's test. You state that it tells you how you will do in the dating scene with a group of women. No, in the final scores, he indicates that you have to be a "major hottie" to get married or to get quality men. For example, under the "nascent alpha female" he says:
"As long as you are not a complete bitch, marriage with a top quality man will come easily to you."
Funny, I see what look like plain Janes who are "bitchy" (I'll call it high-strung) married all the time or in a relationship to quality guys. And really, are quality guys the same winners that Roissy has from his men's dating value quiz? Because if so, they don't seem to high quality, unless a woman wants a man who ignores her and looks at other women.
The stuff works if your goal is to get laid and nothing else. The end goal is a one night stand. If that is what you want go for it. The main point seems to be that it works for that short term goal and women are pissed that their defenses have been breached. Welcome to the "new game" ladies. The interesting point is that from some sectors of femdom you hear "men are pigs" but at the same time they are throwing themselves into our trough.
@Aurelian said... The end goal is a one night stand.
__________
Depends on what one means by one night stand... if it means the sex is just that and there can be several one night stands with the same person, then yes, if it means just once and move on never to hit the same woman twice, then not always. Roissy and his ilk are usually more than happy to mount the same woman an indefinite number of times, just so long as she doesn't start talking about a relationship or expecting any kind of gentlemanly reciprocation.
Vox Day wrote an article a while back called "Who Let the Dogs Out." It outlines how basic alphas keep stables of women for sex on demand. I imagine they prefer to have it readily accessible with a willing woman than to have to start anew every time they want some. That was my preference during my pre-marriage, promiscuous years if I'm being honest.
The thing about Roissy is that his own brand of Game is about being a PUA -- that is, short-term sex-based relationships, for the most part. Therefore critiquing him for being based on short-term relationships is kind of inapposite -- that's explicitly what he's about. I also disagree with that, morally, but at the same time Roissy is good at what he does, even if many of us are off-put by it for moral or other reasons. It works, if that is what you are into.
The other thing is that men and women are vastly differently situated. Being a beta female is not at all like being a beta male. Up to a certain age, women have many more opportunities than similarly-leveled men. That changes in the late 30s/around 40 for a few years where men then have more opportunities than similarly leveled women. But the experiences of the market, either way, are so vastly, vastly different for men and women that I think it's very hard to have an intelligent conversation about them between the sexes, really. The experience many men have of more or less complete deprivation of sexual access is not an experience most women share -- not that all women are promiscuous, but they, on average, have much greater *access* to sex than men of their same level do, whether or not they actually make use of that access. That leads to a major difference in experience between men and women in the current market.
Stereotypes are perpetuated by members of a demographic group who are most noticeable. With that in mind...
Women who could choose anyone display a preference for men who fit the stereotype of the belligerent Columbine jock.
I think that most of the people who call themselves "alphas" or aspire to such nonsense have inferiority complexes. And I am sure they would call me a "beta" for thinking that!
Game is the guy equivalent of the female cleavage flash.
I've been testing Game lately...for things like getting the bank teller to hop a little faster, getting information out of gatekeepers, that sort of stuff. It's pretty easy and effective.
As for the idea that Game only works because the Gamed girls are ripe for the plucking....well, that would be the vast majority of 18-30 something women.
But more importantly, one may as well say that salesmen only sell their products to people who are in the market for his product....duh. It remains that there are learnable sales skills that can give a fellow an edge in the marketplace.
Trust
Good response. Thes key is the emotional attachment. He wants not strings attached sex, wants to use her until either he or she tire of it. Then on to the next tool.
I'd just like to point out that "Roissy" isn't the name of the blog's proprieter but a sly literary reference. I didn't catch it for a long time either.
And really, are quality guys the same winners that Roissy has from his men's dating value quiz? Because if so, they don't seem to high quality, unless a woman wants a man who ignores her and looks at other women.
Always happy to join in here. Anyhow, this is precisely where you appear to have gone awry. You're substituting your idea of high-quality man for Roissy's definition of a man with high-quality sex appeal to women. And sadly, there is a tremendous amount of evidence indicating that women find men who ignore them and are involved with other women of great sexual appeal. Hence the maxim that for a woman, five minutes of Alpha is better than five years of Beta.
Of course, Roissy is referring to female INSTINCT here. And while instinct can be surmounted by intellect or tradition, it still exists and needs to be controlled if it is not to dictate one's behavior.
I think that most of the people who call themselves "alphas" or aspire to such nonsense have inferiority complexes.
This is not true. Alpha is a fairly objective term and can be determined by the amount of a man's sex appeal to women, utilizing his sexual history as a metric. And the statement makes no logical sense given that women are not attracted to insecure men.
However, many men who ASPIRE to Alpha status certainly are insecure. Game was developed specifically to help such men simulate Alpha behavior.
Aurelian, It's even more base than that. What he wants is a free whore and that's what he's getting.
As a teenager, I had a friend who was one of these "alpha males". This was a guy who naturally did everything Roissy "advocates" (I put in quotes since I'm not convinced that the site isn't parody which has fooled a whole lot of weird men.)
One of this guy's interesting behaviors is that he'd talk to a girl, she'd talk back and maybe even flirt a little. He'd later say something to the effect that "I could have had her." And in his mind, he really could have. Problem is that I'd be watching and see a girl who just wanted him to go away.
I've since concluded that if he ever did get laid (I didn't believe a word he said, so who knows if he ever did) it wasn't because of his alleged charm or his pick-up artist machinations, it was because he happen to hit on a horny girl with no standards OR one who envisioned herself to be an alpha female and was convinced she'd seduced him!
* * *
The entire alpha male thing is absurd anyway. It makes sense only in non-cognitive species where brute strength, not cunning, wins. The claims about how society has now changed are just excuses by assholes to act like assholes.
Where alpha theory hits it's height is when someone points to a powerful person as a supporting example, ignoring the fact that person was often just a dweeb like everyone else. "Oh, but she saw the alpha male in him..." Yeah, right.
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And sadly, there is a tremendous amount of evidence indicating that women find men who ignore them and are involved with other women of great sexual appeal.
No, there isn't. This is just yet more made up shit. (Women tend to be attracted to men that other women are attracted to, but don't extrapolate that to the quote above. The same is true for men.)
There is a small set of masochistic women who like to be beaten. Extrapolating that to anything is just as absurd as claiming that because a small set of women like to be humiliated and treated like shit, it's somehow reflective on women as a whole or even large part or that it's "instinct." Bollocks.
Reality is, appealing to "instinct" is just a way to avoid admitting that two shallow horny people hook up just to get laid (nothing wrong with that, just don't pretend it's anything more sophisticated.)
Chuck Pelto,
Thanks for your comments--your interpretation gave me a good laugh. It was great!
Vox,
Okay, that makes sense. Thanks for the clarification. This would be a good topic to discuss on PJTV sometime.
I keep getting alpha. Though the site, and right in this case, suggests I keep my mouth zipped as it can (has) kill the deal.
I keep looking at your pictures. And I have read here a bit. Not that this gives me a great knowledge of you, but... some. Anyway, if all you are is a beta girl, you should be happy with that. Besides, as a alpha, or near alpha, I must say... it's a dogs life. One I am trying against my nature to improve... away from strict alphaness. Blah...
Real men know that betas are the new alphas.
The experience many men have of more or less complete deprivation of sexual access is not an experience most women share -- not that all women are promiscuous, but they, on average, have much greater *access* to sex than men of their same level do, whether or not they actually make use of that access.
One of Megan's commenters put it very well (if a bit crudely) and I paraphrase ---
"It's really hard to get women to understand why guys restore to PUA techniques because all most women have to do if they want to get laid is go to a bar and smile."
A major problem with that quiz is that it seemingly makes no allowance for the Sigma/Lone Wolf types. That most likely skews the results for all.
Dr. Helen,
Roissy's test is for entertainment value only. Don't take it too seriously.
However, there are tons more articles at Roissy's that actually ARE very, very valuable.
The 'Sixteen Commandments' for starters, is crucial.
In other words, there are MUCH, MUCH better articles at Roissy's than that test.
Do not reject Roissy based on that test. There are many, many things of value there.
Joe,
All their theories and fancy approaches completely fail when confronted with a women who sees right through them, like my oldest daughter.
No, she wouldn't.
Neither your daughter nor any other woman has any way to distinguish between a man who is naturally charming, vs. one who learned how to be that way through books and websites.
One thing missing from this conversation is the factor of cultural differences. The bar scene in Thailand, the Philippines, Okinawa, and Korea are totally different from the US. The more you move around, the more likely you are to be perceived as an alpha, regardless of your personal character. A middle class American man can have the sex life of a millionaire in some of these places; and he does not necessarily have to pay for it.
Since they are twelve, most women are reading magazines about how to get the upper hand with boys. They are constantly on their cell phones in their Borg-style networking on social issues.
They use makeup to the tune of billions and billions of dollars per year (just watch the makeup commercials on shows oriented towards women), they get plastic surgery - mostly breast implants - and spend billions and billions and billions on clothes and shoes (paid in part by men).
Lots of women spend their whole lives on how to attract men - because they get their whole lives paid for when they do it right. Ask Ivanna Trump or Heather Mills. Or the millions of women who get their lives paid for on a smaller scale.
And then some men get together and start to puzzle out what WOMEN are attracted to (the "PUAs") - and women are deeply offended.
Give me a break.
What is bizarre is not what the PUAs are reporting as what women are attracted to - what is bizarre is WHAT women are attracted to.
And they are.
The serial killer Ted Bundy got thousands and thousands of letter from women who sincerely wanted to get married to him. He got thousands and thousands of nude photos from women who were obsessed with him.
And that is not abnormal for a serial killer.
I've also seen women who were attracted to men who deliberately treated people like shit. Not an "alpha male", but simply a sadistic dick. Someone who orders waiters and waitresses around like he's the king and they are shit.
I find it a bit bizarre, but that's what lies in the unconscious or instinctual mind of lots of women.
And if people knew the crap that married women pull when they are on "vacation" away from the husband or the like, they would be absolutely amazed. Women are just far better about covering it up.
If you think about it, that will put a chill on your idea of the caring woman up on the pedestal in her white flowing dress. Because that's not really what they are about.
JG,
Agreed. Pick-up artists are merely giving women what they want. What women SAY they want is entirely different from what they actually react to.
None of the woman-pedestalizing losers can explain why their precious angels are so attracted to serial killers.
PUAs have exposed women for what they are. Don't blame the PUAs, blame the women for never having left the animal kingdom.
Why would anyone take that test. It's all about appearance. What is the shape of your ass? What does that tell anyone about your personality.
No thanks.
You know, I can't seem to muster much contempt for gamers like Roissy that pretend to be something they are not in order to score.
I have contempt for men who lead women to believe they want relationships in order to score.
I have contempt for women who play nice and attracted to land a husband and take his money.
But I can't seem to have the same contempt when gamers mislead to score. Why? Because they are pretending to be bastards. If they are acting like a bastard, they are pretty much telling the woman they aren't good men and can't be trusted. What the hell do their partners expect?
AmericanWoman,
"Why would anyone take that test. It's all about appearance. What is the shape of your ass? What does that tell anyone about your personality.
No thanks."
I find your handle ironic, because most (young) American women I meet are DEEPLY concerned about the shape of their ass, not very concerned with their own personality (which normally happens to be very shallow and boring) nor with that of the man she seeks except to the degree he can act like a jerk and smile while doing it.
On a wider note, the test (I haven't taken it) has value in that it's useful to acknowledge that there is a social order in the world, and that its first kernels are looks and mastery of social dynamics.
That's not really a big deal to me or Helen, in that we are intellectuals. Our basic worth is not wrapped up in whether we are hot or chicks dig us or whatever. But here's the problem - no one sits around corporate America or Congress and says "what's the most intellectually sound idea? Let's use that one." Ideas need to be sold, and to be sold, social dynamics are required, and your dating value in your pool is a good proxy for your social value.
You gotta be someone people want to be around or you are not going to be able to pass your ideas around for consumption.
"You know, I can't seem to muster much contempt for gamers like Roissy that pretend to be something they are not in order to score."
I don't understand what he's "pretending" to be...I don't think you understand game that well. Pretending to be someone with confidence and flair? If he comes off that way, how is he pretending?
It's weird how this blog has some of the strongest, most dedicated voices against the feminist agenda, but if the topic turns to the old-as-dirt art of guys trying to get women into the sack, they get all shamy, white-knighty and "keep your hands off my daughter!"
But this doesn't work without the other side of the equation. I have news for the readership - young men and women enjoy having sex. Most (not some, but most) young men are either deprived or involuntarily celibate. Meanwhile, American women are dropping their shorts in record numbers. Despite the claims of campus committees who presume they are being fooled into sex, they do this because women enjoy sex too. But you have to have high value to attract them.
That is why you see so much excitement about game, the chance for the celibate majority to augment what they got in the genetic lottery and build real attraction, going from sympathy lays to real, regular sex.
This availability has created the market for the rapid sexual seduction subset of game (again, game has many facets).
But this doesn't work without the other side of the equation. I have news for the readership - young men and women enjoy having sex. Most (not some, but most) young men are either deprived or involuntarily celibate. Meanwhile, American women are dropping their shorts in record numbers. Despite the claims of campus committees who presume they are being fooled into sex, they do this because women enjoy sex too. But you have to have high value to attract them.
That is why you see so much excitement about game, the chance for the celibate majority to augment what they got in the genetic lottery and build real attraction, going from sympathy lays to real, regular sex.
Exactly. Pick-up Game is a way for guys who are stuck in that vast majority to get some access to the sexual free-for-all that consumes a majority of women, yet only permits the participation of a minority of men.
Game is a way of correcting the market imbalance that results from a "sexual free market". In a sexual free market, more women have sex than men, because of the different mating preferences of men and women (hypergamy vs. variety). Therefore in terms of sexual access, a pure free market favors a small number of men and most women (in terms of sex .. leaves aside whether most women want to pursue sex, but at least at some stage they seem to be doing so). Game is a way of equalizing, or moving towards equalizing, the actual average sexual access an average guy has compared to an average woman. Something like Game was bound to come along, due to the sustained sex market imbalance we have been experiencing in the past few decades.
Some will object that men still report on average higher numbers of sex partners, but this is primarily due to the outlier men. That is, the relatively small minority of men (top 10-20% in terms of sexual desirability for women) are currently having mind-bogglingly huge numbers of sexual partners, which tends to raise the male average and distort what is really happening -- on the male side of the ledger, at least, it's mostly a case of feast or famine, when compared with the more equalized female side of the ledger (the main factor differentiating on the female side is how *willing* the women are to have sex with many partners, not how *capable* they are).
I see game as treating sex like a commodity. That is not in line with my values, and I think it underestimates the relational and emotional content of sex to the point of absurdity.
But game works.
Trey
Several commenters here seem to be confusing the type of man women CLAIM to be seeking with the type of man who they actually pursue. It's a question of stated goals versus actual behavior. Go to any bar on a Friday night, and observe, and you will see. Statistical truths often seem unbelievable to people who are outliers.
You know how it is, having sex is so important to some men that it justifies lying and distorting the truth. We'll call lying "game" to make it all okay.
Cham,
"We'll call lying "game" to make it all okay."
This is a hysterical response. Hardcore pickup artists, whose goal is to put as many notches in their belts as possible, construct elaborate fantasy lives and peddle various BS in pursuit of their goal.
But that is an uncommon obsession and not intrinsic to game. Even so, Mystery went on TV and described himself as a professional pickup artist to the audience; culturally aware people know who he is, so I'm not sure where he's being "dishonest" in his seductions.
Game is simply understanding social dynamics and the gender differences in them. This can be applied so as to project a greater social value - even if the person underlying the image hasn't changed. (Although increased 'inner game' is a byproduct of learning these dynamics.)
"Distorting the truth?" Every social interaction uses subtle psychological plays and selective delivery of information. In extreme cases these are rank manipulation and lying respectively...but straightforwardness and open, diarrheal honesty are impossible goals, and neither reasonable nor an effective way to go about life.
"You know how it is, having sex is so important to some men that it justifies lying and distorting the truth. We'll call lying "game" to make it all okay."
-----
Frankly, most men are obnoxiously direct.
Do you really think that women are all upfront and un-made-up and completely honest in every dating situation? Especially when it involves her getting her whole life paid for by a sap?
The entitlement shown here is simply staggering.
And my impression is that most of the "PUA" advice is along the lines of ... don't be a friggin' nerd. Try to show a little confidence, dude.
The entitlement show by women just boggles the mind.
Entitlement Part II:
Women don't get this:
They get bitchy because they are sitting at a desert Oasis with too many people trying to offer them bottles of water. Pish-tosh, away with you.
And there are men out in the desert dying of thirst, and that is really not an exaggeration.
Men pretty much have to buy their intimacy. That is a crucial point that women just do not get. Men have to buy their intimacy, if they are over 30.
Women are supposed to have all the empathy and caring, but I frankly see men having empathy with women, and women having no understanding what.so.ever about the lives that men lead.
What is the definition of intimacy? Do you assume intimacy = sex? If one wants sex I suggest paying for it. Intimacy involves friendship, romance and caring, it doesn't necessarily include sex.
Cham,
You don't have to understand what I just wrote. It's OK.
I'll but it directly: You don't have much of an idea of what men's lives are really like.
Your silly off-target questions are just irrelevant and useless.
Huge ego and arrogance + little understanding = not very useful
This reminds me of a conversation I heard between my little brother and his 6-year-old son.
The son asked how come my brother had to wear a suit to work. My brother just started off saying that "he had to".
The son just kept hammering away. "Will your boss fire you or beat you up if you don't wear a suit."
My brother said no.
The son kept hammering with those kinds of questions.
My brother just gave up.
But he still wears a suit to work, like everyone else in his profession.
I guess the son won the argument, although some would say a 6-year-old is missing some information that he may only get when he is in my brother's shoes.
But he won the argument.
I'll add one more observation; it seems quite obvious to me that successful pick-up artists (PUA) are very similar to successful psychics in that they have an extraordinary talent for cold reading. Charm, charisma and actual alpha-male behavior is entirely secondary if not almost irrelevant.
I posit that first, a PUA plies his craft in specific places where a great deal of self-selection has already happened, such as bars. With few exceptions, the women in these situations are prepared to make themselves available to someone.
Second, when the PUA enters, he immediately identifies the most willing women and completely ignores the rest.
Third, he does a very quick test of the waters with his targets in some order. Acting rude, being in-your-face, anything and it only takes a split second to make an assessment and move on. This process is so fast, the PUA doesn't even count them as a fail.
Fourth, the PUA then engages in the game where he pretends to be using his charm and wiles and the woman pretends to be manipulated into bed. This satisfies both egos.
My repeated point is that PUAs fail miserable when given a true cross section of women. The notion that a man can be so charming and clever as to manipulate a woman into bed is pure fantasy. (When women claim this happened, THEY ARE LYING!) Therefore, the notion that you can teach a guy how to manipulate a woman into bed is just as silly.
What legitimate PUA lessons will teach is, first and foremost, how to identify the willing women through body language, dress, mannerisms and so forth. I'm not Mr. Body Language, but even I've learned enough of the basics that were I single now, I'd be several steps ahead than when I was 21 (and several steps behind being in my late forties, a tad on the middle-age heavy side and gray, though I still have a full head of hair!)
The second thing a PUA can teach is how to negotiate sex with a woman who is already willing, but not being the initiator (for various reasons, including having plausible deniability the next day--He seduced me!)
JG,
"Men pretty much have to buy their intimacy. That is a crucial point that women just do not get."
Judging by the experiences of men on this blog, many women certainly get this.
Whether they empathize with the situation is the question. Many do not, and simply take (and then assert their right to not give in return).
Not all though.
"What is the definition of intimacy? Do you assume intimacy = sex? If one wants sex I suggest paying for it. Intimacy involves friendship, romance and caring, it doesn't necessarily include sex."
I totally agree here, but JG's point still holds...there are many MANY women in this country without any interest in intimacy, just interest in some hot sex and move on to the next shiny object. There are also many men like this.
But in any case, of those women who do desire intimacy, some of them will demand tribute first (wining and dining, sh**-testing, etc etc). It's a shame for them, as they've closed themselves off from real intimacy by treating their suitors as knaves who need to prove themselves before she would deign to pay attention to them.
Avoiding entitlement is a very reliable proxy for avoiding a host of relationship problems.
Joe,
"Charm, charisma and actual alpha-male behavior is entirely secondary if not almost irrelevant."
This is false. Again, the point is that charisma (itself a form of cold reading) and alpha male behavior _can be learned._
"Second, when the PUA enters, he immediately identifies the most willing women and completely ignores the rest."
Again false. In fact, good social dynamics relies upon including the group (Mystery advocates this explicitly). A typical tip-off of weak game is focusing on a woman and ignoring everyone else. It usually works better the other way around.
"My repeated point is that PUAs fail miserable when given a true cross section of women."
This is also not true. People are so invested in trying to discredit men from learning how to be attractive.
Why the obsession with PUAs? They sound creepy, unethical and filled with disease. Are you jealous of them? Why? Is this the kind of person you want to be? Is being a PUA worth lying to women resulting in one night stands with drunk chicks with low self-esteem? When they call afterward do you proudly ignore those desperate voicemails? Perhaps one should get their priorities in order if one thinks this is the way to be.
If one wants women to respect them, be honest with them, value them maybe being an honest respectful person is a good place to start.
"Avoiding entitlement is a very reliable proxy for avoiding a host of relationship problems."
True dat.
Trey
OK, didn't read the article or take any tests. I broke the cardinal rule of posting here.
When I was young, I wanted to get laid. A lot. I played guitar and sang in rock and roll bands, so it was easy to do. And "shiny things" attracted my attention. Girls seemed to want the bad boy, so I played the bad boy. It worked. Although never conducive to a long term thing, the behavior produced the immediate, testosterone fueled, desired results. With such a large pool to choose from at the time, long term never entered my mind. Perhaps Roissy, or whoever, is just stuck in some stage of life.
I still like to get laid, don't misunderstand me. But I like a whole lot more to be involved with it. For instance, I like for the woman to enjoy it as much as I do these days. Is that beta?
By the way, as the father of two beautiful daughters, the fact that females are dropping their panties as fast as twisting the cap off a beer bottle doesn't have the same meaning to me it once did. I prefer not to think about it. Payback is hell, ain't it?
Well, Topher, based on my observations, I completely disagree with your assessment. Among other things charisma can't be learned. You either have it or you don't. Manners can be learned, charm can be learned to an extent, but not charisma.
Moreover, doing a cold read and identifying the willing is NOT finding the weak; it is finding the willing. Nothing more. PUAs simply CANNOT pick up women who don't want to be picked up (any more than a seductress can seduce a man who doesn't want to be seduced.)
I also absolutely maintain that a PUA fails miserably with a true cross section versus a self-selected crowd. I've watched them fail and I've heard their excuses.
I'm not discrediting men from learning how to be attractive or learning how to talk to women, I'm discrediting the self-proclaimed mystical abilities of self-proclaimed pick-up artists. They are entirely different things with two entirely different goals.
Any man can learn to be a PUA, and if that's what you want, great, but don't pretend it's anything but going after tail. And don't pretend that PUAs have some mystical ability to manipulate anybody they choose.
(Fundamentally, being a pick-up artist is about negotiation. Negotiating requires two willing parties. Like a successful salesperson, a PUA isn't going to waste time on the unwilling. Just isn't going to happen. Now, your average man may, and often does, spend an inordinate amount of time wooing a specific woman, but ultimately, that's an entirely different process that involves such trite things as emotions, friendship, sincerity, genuineness and so forth--traits PUAs aren't the least bit interested in.)
Cham,
You have little to no understanding of how women think.
And no, being a woman does not mean you know how women think. Much like how a 12-year-old child has no ability to write a textbook on child psychology.
You don't know how women think, which is why you don't know why Game is a noble and valuable thing, that uplifts the happiness of both women and men.
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