Is extra weight a turn-off or a turn-on?
Neo-Neocon has an interesting post on the “does it make me look fat?” question. She later mentions a French study that says obese French women get less sex than their male counterparts:
I don't know about people who are married but it seems to me in the 20's and younger set, the overweight (maybe not obese) women and girls in the US seem to do pretty well. Guys seem to hang all over the girl spilling out of her jeans with a few extra pounds. I have often wondered if the extra pounds and puffy look signal that the woman is on Depo-Provera or another form of birth control that packs on the pounds. Maybe younger guys sense this and go for girls who look like they put out? This is just a theory.
If male, do you care if a woman is overweight?
Obese women were 30 percent less likely than “normal” women to have had sex in the last year, but obese men were just as likely to have had one sexual partner in the last 12 months as average guys. Professor Kaye Wellings, one of the authors of the study, summed it up pretty effectively by saying, “Maybe women are more tolerant of tubby husbands than men are of tubby wives.”
I don't know about people who are married but it seems to me in the 20's and younger set, the overweight (maybe not obese) women and girls in the US seem to do pretty well. Guys seem to hang all over the girl spilling out of her jeans with a few extra pounds. I have often wondered if the extra pounds and puffy look signal that the woman is on Depo-Provera or another form of birth control that packs on the pounds. Maybe younger guys sense this and go for girls who look like they put out? This is just a theory.
If male, do you care if a woman is overweight?
posted by Helen at 5:35 AM
125 Comments:
"I have often wondered if the extra pounds and puffy look signal that the woman is on Depo-Provera or another form of birth control that packs on the pounds. Maybe younger guys sense this and go for girls who look like they put out?"
---
Why have a complicated, implausible theory if a simple one fits better?
Fat chicks seem to have lower self-esteem and appear to be "easier".
An average man would probably prefer to be with her slimmer sister, but any port in a storm, I guess.
At a certain point, "pig f#?king" becomes a shameful thing, hence the aspiration "no fat chicks".
TO: Dr. Helen
RE: As the French Say....
....Viva la difference!
There's a difference between a few extra pounds and being 'obese'.
Also, I'm wondering if there is a certain degree of loose morals on the part of the French that makes women there more 'accessible' to men.
What was it Mark Twain said two centuries ago? Well almost two. It WAS the 19th Century....
An honest French woman is one how has only one lover and doesn't steal.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Honesty is the best policy - when there is money in it. -- Mark Twain]
What most people consider overweight in a women is just right. The truly fat and obese, OTOH, are disgusting.
I'd rather have a women with "a few extra pounds" than one all skin and bones.
There was also a study done that said men averaged 6 sexual partners over a lifespan and women averaged only 3. Either there were a few woman that the study didn't include that had billions of male sexual partners to make up for the data imbalance or somebody was lying. How can a study prove or disprove that a person had a sex partner or not? I'm not so quick to buy this 30% imbalance theory.
"I don't know about people who are married but it seems to me in the 20's and younger set, the overweight (maybe not obese) women and girls in the US seem to do pretty well...I have often wondered if the extra pounds and puffy look signal that the woman is on Depo-Provera or another form of birth control that packs on the pounds. Maybe younger guys sense this and go for girls who look like they put out?"
I myself have wondered if widespread birth control is a factor in the widening weight gain of today.
But JG is right, there's a simpler explanation - young guys just don't care.
-Remember that guys don't gain the general upper hand with women until their late 20's when they become successful and women start to lose their looks (and get obsessed with marriage).
-In their 20's, lots of guys are still feeling that adolescent desperation about sex so I doubt they feel they can afford to be choosy about "a few extra pounds."
-Personality counts for something. Women on the right side of the attractiveness bell curve tend to be on the left side when it comes to agreeable attitudes and there aren't enough really attractive women to go around anyway.
-There's a big difference between a few extra pounds and being straight-up fat.
Cham,
"There was also a study done that said men averaged 6 sexual partners over a lifespan and women averaged only 3. Either there were a few woman that the study didn't include that had billions of male sexual partners to make up for the data imbalance or somebody was lying."
It's well known that polling bias makes those numbers further apart than reality. But a closer look at the stats is in order. Like most gender stats, men have a wider standard deviation, especially on the right side where a few men have an astronomical number of partners. This "drags" the male number higher on the scale.
But it is possible for the numbers to be unequal, and it actually makes sense. It's the 80-20 rule (or the Pareto Principle) applied to the romance market. Just this week a study purported that in prehistoric humanity, 80% of women passed on their DNA but only 40% of men. That can only happen if a few men are impregnating many women.
It has been speculated that the difference in STD rates among the genders is at least partially due to unbalanced promiscuity - namely, many women getting access to a few men (i.e. a few men are far more promiscuous than either men or women in general).
There is a small subset of men for whom any body fat is a pretext to go get a new woman or tell his girl to lose two pounds. Most men I know have reasonable standards - not too thin or too fat, with compatibility and interestingness required as well.
Fashion and women's magazines do a lot more damage to the female body image than the standards of men.
It is possible for the numbers to be unequal Topher, but do statistician rely on asking both genders about numbers of sex partners? Unless one is following them around with a video camera, I'm not ready to believe the assumptions. Men are rewarded by society when they claim to have a greater number of sex partners and women are accused of being a whore for doing the same. This leads me to believe that both genders are prone to lying on questionnaires. Using the question-answer method you won't get good data.
And, FWIW, fat women often pair up with fat men so they can enjoy what they love together: food.
If a woman doesn't care enough about herself to keep her weight under control, I'm not interested. I expect women to apply the same standard to me.
I'm not young but I prefer a few extra pounds. When a woman actually has breast and hips, it's sexier. Plus, I worry about breaking a painfully skinny woman. From what I've read, what men really like in a woman is different from the social ideal of a beautiful woman.
I can't speak for the young men anymore, but speaking as a middle-aged man, skinny is no sexier than fat. What is currently viewed as "a few extra pounds" is normal. Women are supposed to have hips, breasts, and, you know, curves.
If you want a theory behind men being attracted to bigger women, it more likely has to do with evolutionary factors, e.g. bigger hips are conducive to bearing children. We don't need to be conscious of these evolutionary factors -- they've been entrenched over many thousands of years. By contrast, birth control is a new technology; there hasn't been enough time for men to evolve to respond to its effects on women's bodies.
Also, curviness is correlated with size, and female curves signal that a woman is clearly a woman rather than a man. Features that clearly signal one's gender are more attractive.
I wrote this long blog post (a while ago) about why women view the ideal woman's body as so much skinnier than men do.
"If a woman doesn't care enough about herself to keep her weight under control, I'm not interested. I expect women to apply the same standard to me."
The "woman letting herself go" is one of the prototypical anxieties for men who fear getting married.
It's a typical result of combat dating, where you are playing a game and getting married is "winning" the game with no further effort required.
Before anybody screams "misogyny" this does happen with men too, but since I don't date men I'm concerned about that only in an academic sense.
There's a lot of talk on the psychological circuit about how women need to feel loved and be desired. Guess what? So do men! Keeping in decent shape, initiating intimacy, wearing lingerie, etc are all signals to a man that you seek his sexual attention, which is as affirming (ego?) to his ego as anything his mate can do.
(This is usually where harpies check in with sarcasm, "aww, poor men and their fragile egos, who don't you be a man and quit whining about your feelings?")
My rule of thumb is that I don't date women who out weigh me. Unless she's significantly taller, which would be the only exception.
And given that I'm a...big dude, I don't see either as a problem.
No, guys do not like chunky chicas.
In the 20's, maybe you'll see guys hitting on them, but for one simple reason. The cute thin ones are already taken, or dating up.
So guys who want any action at all (keeping 'relationship' out of the equation, since looking at physicality only), have to therefore lower sights to chunky chicas.
Verbosity Dogood, how do you speak for all guys?
My posts are disappearing lately. Is anyopne else having that problem? Have I done something to offend? A couple of weeks ago I know I posted a "right on" at least three times in support of one of JG's posts on taxes. I posted this same post about an hour ago and it poofed. Ah well.
I think I can explain the enigma in two words: larger breasts.
Let's see if this post goes through.
Trey
The women are more likely to not lower their standards (unrealistic though they may be), and go without. The men keep lowing their standards until they score, then try to claw their way back up. It's just that simple.
On the other hand, I'm not at all interested in stick-thin women either. In a city with a sizable outdoor-activities component, it makes for a significant percentage.
I don't understand people who let themselves go. I find it repulsive in both sexes. Still, I think a woman can get away with a few extra pounds more readily than a man - we're kind of meant to have a bit of weight on us, but as someone already said, there's a big difference between a "few extra pounds" and being fat or obese. It sort of depends what "extra" means - if it's extra compared to stick insect thin, then it's not really extra but healthy.
Likewise, a fat man is a turn-off for me. I've been in situations where there just wasn't the physical lust there and I don't really want to be in that situation again. You have to find your partner attractive and nice to look at, and fat just looks like "lazy" to me.
I agree with the comments saying you're looking for too complicated an explanation for guys going for the chubbier girls. It's because a) they're seen as easier, and b) some of the guys don't think they can do better (which is the way they see it). I seriously doubt they'd even know that birth control can cause weight gain, much less be thinking about it when pulling fat chicks.
"If male, do you care if a woman is overweight?"
Helen, you are a "forensic psychologist" and you have to ask this question?
I have contended for some time women have the intellectual capacity of 7-10 year old boys. Thanks for one more piece of evidence.
John Althouse Cohen,
only loser men who can't do any better will have sex with fat chicks.
Oh...yeah...and married men, poor bastards.
Having been married 18 years and having to do a 'fat woman' towards the end? It's crap. My fav#1 now is 170cm tall, 50kgs, and runs a marathon in under 4 hours. No man who can get a woman like that will do a fat chick. NOT going to happen.
globalman100: Did you see the studies I referred to in my blog post?
I'm surprised by how many people think they know the personal preferences of every man. Not all men are the same; people are different.
John,
people are different, true. And SOME men do go for fatties. Generally they are loser men or married men or men who have some sexual hangup. Who said I think I know the personal preferences of every man? Not me.
I am told, in Germany, there is quite a demand for fat women in their 50s as prostitutes. Apparently some significant number of young men have fantasies about having sex with their mothers. So yes, I am well aware SOME men have preferences for OLD FAT WOMEN. I imagine it's a relatively small percentage. Most men like to have sex with the hottest women they can find. And most means 51%+ though I rather guess the number is much higher.
I for one can say that having been with one woman for 23 years I would never stoop so low down the female hierarchy as to have sex with a woman who looked like my wife at 46 (when we separated) ever again. Women hate me for the views I express now. Well? Maybe they should not have been so keen to abuse me.
Define "overweight".
By current standards, Marilyn Monroe was heavy; Christina Hendricks is "plus sized"; the Venus di Milo is getting pretty hippy.
For whatever reason, the media-driven notion of attractiveness is much skinnier than that. I can't but wonder if that notion is at all being driven by what men normally find attractive.
Doc, you are linked at VoxDay. Here is what I commented over there, for your amusement here:
JohnG, whtbread, and Nate are all hitting like sluggers.
Women should have hips... and a good hip-waist ratio.
If I am going to break her in half impregnating her, then something ain't right.
I am a hip and butt man myself. I love birthing hips, and a woman's hips and butt, from behind, should look like and upside down heart (as in I heart Texas)
My wifey resembles Monica Belluci, and that is what I like.
Though Christina Hendricks is quite acceptable on the bigger end, for those that might consider her bigger. Ahh, redheads.
As whtbread pointed out, the fashion industry is run by gays that pick models who tend to look like adolescent boys.
And I ain't talkin' fat in the above.
In light of the recent kickup over Megan McArdle's blog posts on game, it's interesting that John Althouse Cohen's linked article begins with an interview with McArdle:
"If I were an actress, I would have to lose 15 pounds, probably, to keep my jobs. And I'm really pretty skinny. ... Almost no one looks like me, and almost no one can look like this over the age of 19. I'm not saying that I'm amazingly gorgeous. In fact, I think that being that thin isn't really particularly attractive -- to men. Women think it is."
There is a possible subtext to this...one of "I'm skinny and I don't have men hanging all over me, so it must be that men don't like skinny women."
From Cohen: "I remember seeing a study in one of my textbooks back in college. It found that men's views of the ideal female body type is, on average, about average. Women, of course, viewed the ideal female body type as much skinnier."
I'm betting it's the pathological fear of fatness that seems to befall most American women, no matter what their body or health. We guys are told from youth to never even so much as subtly suggest a woman is anything more than underweight or else we've dealt a crushing, unforgivable blow to her psyche. If this is true, it makes sense that the ideal in a woman's mind is thus one where there is no looseness at all.
We have many problems in society. One is of runaway obesity. Another is of perversely skinny body images projected to women (mostly by women's magazines, it would appear). We can address both problems at the same time - it's not like trying to help obese people get healthy means skinny people have to get even skinnier. This topic always produces extreme responses where we stop making distinctions. Now people are mad at Michelle Obama, saying her childhood obesity effort is going to push girls into eating disorders.
I like thin and toned, but I like a little padded softness even better. (I'm not exactly in my 20s, either.)
There's a definite difference between having a little extra fat and being fat, but there is also big difference between being young with a few extra pounds and being old with a few extra pounds. A 20 yo's body and skin can make it look good while a 40 yo's usually can't.
Topher,
of course you are seeing an obesity problem. This is mainly due to the feminisation of society. Women trying to be like men and men trying to be like women. They end up the same. Fat. Take a look at before and after photos of chers daughter to see what masculiniations of women does for them. Yuk.
People are being brainwashed and manipulated into and androgenous and sexually dysfunctional society as part of an organised plan to 'cull back the sheeple' called 'population control'. The two wars last century were 'disappointing' in their population control effects so they have gone for the pill, abortion, feminism, androgeny, chemical sterilisation and artificial fertilisation as 'the plan'. Most people are blissfully ignorant of all this.
A 20 yo's body and skin can make it look good while a 40 yo's usually can't.
Huh?
Eleanor said...
A 20 yo's body and skin can make it look good while a 40 yo's usually can't.
Huh?
Age. Sagging. Wrinkles.
I should clarify. Even a 40 yo woman looks better with a few extra pounds than skin and bones, but she won't be able to carry as much weight attractively as a 20 yo could.
”Obese women were 30 percent less likely than “normal” women to have had sex in the last year, but obese men were just as likely to have had one sexual partner in the last 12 months as average guys. Professor Kaye Wellings, one of the authors of the study, summed it up pretty effectively by saying, “Maybe women are more tolerant of tubby husbands than men are of tubby wives.””
I’d wager that the term “Obese” is being determined entirely by Body Mass Index, meaning that, at least when it comes to men, “obesity” may be the very thing that gets women’s attention.
Personally, I would be considered “obese”. At 6’1”, and 265 lbs, I have a BMI of 35 – well into the “obese” category. However, I have 34” waist, yet wear a size 50 coat. An there are quite a few of us guys who lift weights, and are in very good shape (the sort of “shape” that actually gets women attentions) who are, never-the-less “obese” according to the BMI.
I believe that using BMI alone in delineating between “obese” and “normal”, WRT men, is not a reliable way to determine if there is more tolerance of “tubby” by women.
Further, the idea that “tubby” men get as much sex as their non-tubby counterparts should serve as a dead give-away. Fat, estrogen-addled men tend to loose interest in sex, thus even if women were, in fact, more tolerant, the fat guy’s are less likely to be “up” for it anyway.
Another factor which may be contributing to the apparent differential in "obese" women getting less sex than "obese" men may well be that fat men with money can still get sex from gold-diggers.
The study might be forgetting that aside from physical attractiveness, there is a sort of financial attractiveness that can overcome a lack of physical attractiveness. However, such attraction tends to work unidirectionally - with far more women being attracted to men with enough money that their physical repulsiveness can be over-looked, than what is seen in the reverse.
OK jay, I get it now. One other thing though, if a 20 yo is already carrying "extra," she's very likely to have more "extra" by the time she's 40. If the average American gains about 2lbs per year.... Well, you do the math. ;) Of course, I realize we're talking about sexual attraction, which is in the here and now, not thinking "what will she look like in another 20 years?"
Also, extra weight when you're older can lead to that matronly look, which isn't good either. It depends where you started I guess. I started on the skinny side (115lbs - 120lbs, 5'5") and now I'm 38 and 135lbs at the most, mostly gained in the last 10 years and since having kids. I think I look better proportioned now, and I certainly get 'checked out' by men more than I used to.
It really does depend on the person. I see a lot of younger women who look a lot flabbier than I do and who have a lot less excuse for it, not that I've worked hard at it (just lucky I guess - feel free to hate - although I do know when to lay off the potato chips).
”But it is possible for the numbers to be unequal, and it actually makes sense.”
No, it’s not; and, No, it doesn’t.
When considering (strictly) heterosexual intercourse, every time one man has a new partner, so does one woman. This holds true no matter how promiscuity is distributed. For each unique partner a member of one gender has, there is an corresponding member of the other gender also having a unique partner. Given that there are nearly equal numbers of both men and women (in the age range likely to be sexual active), the average number of partners should be just as nearly equal between the genders.
Over on his blog, Delenda est Carthago, Φ once worked out the math (I’d have to search out the exact URL).
But, if the basic logic eludes you, I dare say, looking at the math isn’t going to help you out.
slwerner: But any study is going to have limitations on age and geography. Doesn't that allow for the possibility of inequality?
In further reply to Topher's comment @ 8:22 AM, July 28, 2010 (I failed to denote to whom I was responding in my previous post), I have found Φ's post in which he works out the partner question mathematically, as well as his follow-up post.
Sex Partner Math
and the follow-up, Sex Partner Math II: the British Problem
John Althouse - "slwerner: But any study is going to have limitations on age and geography. Doesn't that allow for the possibility of inequality?"
Going back to the beginning of this question, Cham posted @ 7:55 AM, July 28, 2010:
"There was also a study done that said men averaged 6 sexual partners over a lifespan and women averaged only 3. Either there were a few woman that the study didn't include that had billions of male sexual partners to make up for the data imbalance or somebody was lying."
Note that this is a lifetime average being considered (check the second link I posted to the math, and you can see an example wherein a age range DID show a disparity - due to teh relative difference in ages between when the average man becomes sexually active, verse that for women).
Now, women do live longer than men, on average; but during those particular years that they outlive men, they are less likely to be sexually active (eliminating any significant gain in number of partners they might have simply by living longer). Thus, given complete honesty, the average number of opposite-sex partners should be roughly the same.
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Note that this is a lifetime average being considered
OK, but it's not like the people in the study were in some self-contained little universe where they could have sex only with each other. Wouldn't that need to be the case before we could assume that honest answers should yield exact equality of men's and women's numbers of sex partners?
John Althouse Cohen - "OK, but it's not like the people in the study were in some self-contained little universe where they could have sex only with each other. Wouldn't that need to be the consider in order to assume that honest answers should yield exact equality of men's and women's numbers of sex partners?"
In a properly designed and controlled study, the sample population should model the over-all population.
there should be no need to confine those in the study to having sex only with others within that same study population if one uses a sample size large enough to be representative.
look at it his way, when voters are polled, only a small percentage of the total number of voters are questioned, yet, consistently, their responses end up being rough equal to what is see overall. Asking enough random people about their "number" should work out the same as asking them about which way they will vote.
If not, then such studies are invalid.
John Althouse Cohen - "But any study is going to have limitations on age"
As to the question of age cut-off differentials, following back through the links I posted, here is what I noted when a question of a measured imbalance (of women in given age rage having more partners than men) was posed. You'll have to go to the top of that blog post to see the issue in question.
Young girls are full of sauce. A little extra weight looks sexy and lovely on many of them.
My idea of plump and delightful in a young girl doesn't look so great on a woman my age - it's aging.
Keeping slim takes years off.
Young girls are full of sauce. A little extra weight looks sexy and lovely on many of them.
My idea of plump and delightful in a young girl doesn't look so great on a woman my age - it's aging.
Keeping slim takes years off.
To be clear, I do agree that the 2:1 ratio makes it pretty clear that men are overstating and/or women are understating how many sex partners they've had.
What I'm not convinced of is that you can know this with mathematical certainty. That's how you're making it sound, but the real world is a bit messier than that.
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slwerner,
Look up the 80:20 rule. Many women are having non-monogamous/rotating polyandrous relations with a small pack of "alpha" men. We know this is true simply by observation of social circles. This accounts for the different shapes of the bell curves.
"But, if the basic logic eludes you, I dare say, looking at the math isn’t going to help you out."
Throwing insults is not a good way to get people to take your point of view.
I'm 5'3" and am currently weighing in at 116.5 pounds. I must not look so bad, I'm constantly being approached by men, asked out on dates and told I'm beautiful. It helps that I smile a lot and have a positive outlook. All this at age 48. Today I was driving down a busy street and a guy in a truck stopped in the road so I couldn't pass, rolled down his window and told me I was the hottest thing he had seen in a while. I guess even my minivan isn't a deterrent. Life is good, I have absolutely no complaints, I like being me. :D
"I'm constantly being approached by men, asked out on dates and told I'm beautiful."
-----
I kind of know what you mean, as a male underwear model for Sears catalogs - who just does it for fun because I come from old money and am worth billions - I get hit on by a constant stream of Cougars.
I know all their sad tricks, these older women. I sometimes give them a pity thrill.
Topher - ":Throwing insults is not a good way to get people to take your point of view."
True enough, i should have thought better of that remark.
However, I see that you aren't grasping the concept.
It doesn't matter that 20% of men are having sex with 80% of women. Each and every time a man has sex with a woman for the first time, that woman is also having sex with a that man for the first. They each add "1" to their partner count - or one each for each gender respectively. There simply is no way around this part of the calculations.
Yes, some men will end up with higher counts that others, some much higher. Yet, the simple fact remains that for each woman a given man may count as a partner, there is also a woman who counts him as one of hers. And, some of these women also end up with fairly high counts.
But, no matter how disproportionately the sex partners are distributed, we still have that 1 for 1 net count for each gender at each and every new partnering.
If men, as a gender collectively count 1,000,000,000 partners, then so do women.
in the end, when the total number of sex partners for all members of each gender are averaged out over the the total number of their members, that fact that the total number of members for each gender are roughly equal will, necessarily mean that the average number o partners WILL BE roughly the same.
There simply isn't any way to get around this fact either.
Back in the day, the best physical sex I have ever had was with two young ladies that were between 15-20 pounds heavier than they wanted.
I have always thought that the most attractive thing about women are what is between their ears. I need someone to talk to.
"I'm constantly being approached by men, asked out on dates and told I'm beautiful."
LOL!!!! Like that proves you are good looking? Nope. That only proves men are desperate nowadays.
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I'm constantly being approached by men, asked out on dates and told I'm beautiful.
I guess you're constantly beating the men off. ;-)
I could have sworn you were at least 117 lbs.
My rule of thumb is that I don't date women who out weigh me. Unless she's significantly taller, which would be the only exception.
Same here, except that at 6' 3" and 225.5 lbs, not even if they're taller.
you are a "forensic psychologist" and you have to ask this question?
It's called informal research. Asking the obvious question doesn't always bring the obvious answer. Curiosity is a virtue.
Don't know about actual "poundage".
I know she's married, so please forgive me. I saw a motivational poster type photo of Sarah Palin once in a red dress and black knee high boots waving as she was getting on a plane. OH. MY. GOD.
To Cham: I don't think I personally know a man who has only had six partners or less, and I only know one woman who has had three partners or less.
Either there were a few woman that the study didn't include that had billions of male sexual partners to make up for the data imbalance or somebody was lying.
The answer is "neither". What this apparent discrepancy is actually measuring is how few men are attractive to women. A small number of men get a huge number of sex partners, while an alarmingly large number of men have zero sex partners. Hence it is quite easy for the average man to have twice as many sex partners as the average woman: as a group, women are having sex with the same few top men. This becomes much clearer when you start looking at men's median rather than mean. There's a large skew upwards in the median when compared to the mean.
While dishonesty is a possible source of the 6-3 discrepancy, I think (not certain) the actual problem is that Cham is remembering the study wrong. I believe I read the same thing elsewhere recently, but it said it was median number of partners, not average.
randian - "What this apparent discrepancy is actually measuring is how few men are attractive to women. A small number of men get a huge number of sex partners, while an alarmingly large number of men have zero sex partners."
[sigh]
I can't believe that this one is so difficult to grasp. each time a man (any man, it doesn't matter who) has a new woman as a sex partner, he adds one to the total number of sex female sex partners had by men. At the same time, that woman (again, doesn't matter who she is) is adding one to the female overall tally. The number of total sex partners for each gender goes up in parallel, 1 for 1. It doesn't matter how many others they had, with each new one, both parties add just one to the total number of opposite sex partners had by the gender collectively.
The average is the mean - strict definition. Thus, the mean (average) number of sex partners for either gender is calculated by taking the total number of sex partners had, and dividing by the total number of members of that gender. Roughly equal numbers of members for each gender will ALWAYS equate to roughly the same number of average sex partners.
It does matter if a given man has had zero or 100, there number of partners adds to the collective numerator, while they each count as one in the collective denominator.
The median is the point at which there are a an equal number of values that are individually greater, and an equal number of individual values which are lesser.
In a model where the greater number of data points a group around a low value, with the outliers being considerably higher, the median will skew lower than the mean.
Consider an example of 31 men, 10 having had just one partner each, 10 having had 2 each, 5 having has 5 each, one having had 25, one 50, one 75, one 100, and the last 125.
The total number of partners collectively is 450, the average is 14.065, but the median of that set is 2 - 16 data points of a value of 2 or less, and 16 data points with a value of 2 or greater (seriously, plug this into a spreadsheet if you don't believe me).
Sorry to be such a hard-ass about the math stuff, but let's get it straight.
Here's that data set:
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
5
5
5
5
5
10
10
25
50
75
100
125
=SUM(A1:A32)
=AVERAGE(A1:A32)
=MEDIAN(A1:A32)
My wife was a little chunky when we got married, but still attractive. She's now genuinely obese by any standard and it's nauseating to see her naked. So much so, I simply cannot get sexually stimulating just looking at her.
In short, I know from first hand experience that I like a few extra pounds, but utterly despise obesity.
For the record, though, I think this has more to do with the aggressiveness of the women than anything else.
do you care if a woman is overweight?
Yes, I care. I care a great deal.
Slim and hot = good.
Fat and not = bad.
There are too many nice women to date a mean one, and there are too many beautiful women to date an ugly one. That's been my position for the last (almost) 50 years and I see no reason to change.
While there may be a small subset of men who chase the statistical tails, most do not. While there are some women that can pull off a few extra pounds and still melt lead from a few feet away, the first sigma under the mean is definitely where the majority of the hot chicks can be found.
And when did "curves" become an acceptable euphemism for "bloated pig"?
Let's simplify the universe to six men and six women.
Then stipulate that five women have sex with one men from this group of twelve one time each. One woman has sex with him exclusively, and the other five women go on to have sex exclusively with the other five men.
So know we can make the following statements.
One woman should report having one partner. Five of the six women should report having two sexual partners, though given social standards (and hazy memories) under-reporting is likely.
One man should report having six partners. Five should report have one partner. Actual reporting, however, may differ from reality.
If we assume anonymous reporting it will look as if each man had liasons with two of the women when we know in fact that this is not the case. Most have had only a single partner, while most women had two partners regardless of how they report. Note that I'm not claiming this is anywhere close to the actual situation. A more realistic distribution would be harder to visualize.
With even a slight skew in reporting, it's not hard to see how you could come up with a situation where it appears that there is a discrepancy between the average number of partners for a man and a woman, and where a few men with a substantially larger number of partners will inflate the average for all men.
Let's say some university is doing a study on sex partners. And let's say they choose a random sampling of the population to ask about their previous sexual partner number. The questions are carefully crafted to be nonjudgmental and straightforward. The researchers are confident they are going to get some good data.
The research collection team is made up of university students. Figure they are young perky women with ponytails and clipboards. Now let say that random section of the population includes some hardworking pillar-of-the-community types who value their moral reputation. Let's also figure those same pillars-of-the-community were young partiers in a previous life who may have had some drunken revelry with members of the opposite sex down by the flume at 3AM, and maybe somethings happened they would much rather forget. Do those sexual liasons get included in the overall number of partners that Miss Perky Clipboard asks about. I bet not. 30 years after the fact many of us only had sex while in a deep committed relationship with people that we plan to marry and bear children. Memories can be quite selective when we feel our reputations are on the line.
"And when did "curves" become an acceptable euphemism for "bloated pig"?"
About the same time BBW became a better way of describing a land whale. These women are 'liberated', 'empowered', 'independent'. And what do they do with it? Eat until they grow to the size of your average elephant. Ugh. And then, for some reason, they make the claim men have an 'obligation' to 'love them for who they are' while also demanding men change to suit them. I am so done with western women. And looking at the plunging birth rates in the western world so are a lot of other men.
I would think that if a person is wearing a cloak of fat they may not wish to be "loved" at all, there are psychological reasons why they've chosen a look that discourages romantic interest. We all have the ability to look any way we wish. What does your weight say about what is going on in your mind? (question not directed at any specific poster)
...if a person is wearing a cloak of fat they may not wish to be "loved" at all, there are psychological reasons why they've chosen a look that discourages romantic interest.
I've known a few females who fit into this category. They admitted that they intentionally were heavy and kept themselves physically unattractive so that men wouldn't come on to them. Quite sad.
"I've known a few females who fit into this category. They admitted that they intentionally were heavy and kept themselves physically unattractive so that men wouldn't come on to them. Quite sad."
Unfortunately, I have no doubt some of these fall into the aforementioned "like to be married but don't like to do it" category...for some reason it's not seen as an essential part of being married.
On a related tangent: Beer: Getting ugly people laid for centuries.
Any woman can get laid if she really wants to.
Cham wrote: " there are psychological reasons why they've chosen a look that discourages romantic interest."
I take some exception to your using the word chosen. Over a third of the morbidly obese women in the US are untreated sexual abuse survivors. I bet if they could easily choose to not be overweight, they would.
Trey
I have no doubt some of these fall into the aforementioned "like to be married but don't like to do it" category...
The older I get, the more I'd reverse that statement, lol.
I have also known a number of obese women who have a history of abuse and packed on weight as a reaction to that. It really is quite sad.
At the beginning of these comments we have men commenting about their body-type preference for women, and some confusion about why a woman would let herself become obese. As a reasonably hot woman, let me tell you how things are from my side. Being good looking and female has some serious drawbacks. Gracefully telling men that one isn't interested in their advances isn't as easy as it looks. Some men don't take rejection well. One has to deal with stalkers, annoying telephone calls, constant flirtation and being followed. Some guys don't take no for an answer and feel they have every right to sexually harass once their feelings have been hurt. You have to deal with mens' anger and sometimes being called names. In winter I can wear a hoodie and baggie pants, but during the summer months it's too hot and the problems get ramped up exponentially. One learns to stay out of the bars and avoid the streets, especially where the Johns loop as that becomes a challenge unto itself. I can see why a woman might want to add a few pounds to avoid becoming a target.
I see what you're saying cham, but you can always wear clothes that hide your hotness and still be cool in summer. There's always Burmuda shorts and a baggy t-shirt - add a Tilly hat and you're all set for "not hot."
I would never want to pack on enough pounds to make myself undesirable. There's also the option of having a nice short old lady haircut if you want to be totally out of that game for a while. It really does work! (I know from experience - long hair makes quite the difference).
"I would never want to pack on enough pounds to make myself undesirable"
I don't think anyone is saying women are packing on pounds "intentionally" - it's a subconscious psychological problem to either make themselves undesireable or not care that she's undesireable.
Topher, it seemed to be what cham was implying, and one friend told me straight up she did just that, so it's probably safe to assume she's not the only one. No doubt a lot of it is subconscious though.
Topher,
"it's not seen as an essential part of being married."
Every young man should be made well aware that getting married is the best way to make sure his woman gets fat and stops putting out. The ONLY other more effective method of making sure a woman gets fat and stops putting out is to have kids. As a man who was stupid enough to BOTH get married AND have kids I can vouch for both. After 18 years of marriage, where a celebate buddhist monk could have been called a 'sex-fiend' compared to me? I am out, single, and dating really hot women. Us older guys have a duty to warn the younger guys this is what is waiting for them. Spread the word brother.
And Helen? How about you do some columns as to how western women are actually cowards, liars and hypocrites in the main? Young men have a right to know that women claim that, using the family court, they can commit perjury, kidnapping, extortion and theft with complete impunity. Many men are realising this. How about you talk about some really important issues like paternity fraud, the jailing of men for the 'crime' of being so broke they can't pay extortionate 'alimony' and 'child support' to the 'empowered' and 'liberated' grrrrls. Us men are sick to death of the lies and hypocrisy of you women and we are speaking out about it. And everywhere we do women censor and ban because they know they don't have any rebuttal to the facts. Pathetic.
As America porks up, there are greater numbers of large people. And of course, it's more 'normal' to see bigger people.
Therefore, more people see and are willing to accept larger folks as 'settling.'
The reality is that the cute thin gals have their choices of whomever they want, so there are long waiting lines for them. Kinda like the popular roller coaster - everyone wants to get on it, so the wait is longer.
if you don't want to wait in such a line, you take a ride with a much shorter line, kinda like the merry-go-round. Fat girls are like the merry-go-round: you really want the roller coaster, but will settle for the slow circular motion for 90 seconds. With screaming kids.
I've seen an article somewhere indicating that, for millenia, men's ideal for looks and weight have always been the same. Pretty, with BMI around 17-25 (that's a size 2-6 for most folks).
This means that fat gals are a backup for most, and for young guys in their 20's, the first, best chance to get some action, since the hot 20's girls are likely already occupied...
Cham,
"Being good looking and female has some serious drawbacks. Gracefully telling men that one isn't interested in their advances isn't as easy as it looks. Some men don't take rejection well."
Um...try telling men that a woman offering them sex is a 'drawback' and that gracefully telling a woman you don't want sex with her isn't as easy as it looks...I'm sure a lot of men would feel really bad about that.
If you women are so 'equal' why is it that you still force men to make all the running for sex in the US? In Germany us alpha males make the women do all the running and it's good. As far as some men not taking rejection so well? Don't make me laugh. The few times I told my wife no to sex I had to put up with screaming, punching, kicking, and occasionally even biting. If a man did that he'd be in jail. If a man tries to have sex with a woman after she says no he's going to jail for 10-15. If a wife wants sex, it does not matter how tired, or ill, or stressed, or whatever the man is from doing like I did, single provider for a family of 6. She'll scream the house down until you give her what she wants. Each time I did that I knew I was getting no sleep until I gave her what she wanted. No matter there were times I was seriously ill and simply didn't feel like it. Hell, there were times my wife fed my dinner to the dog and then demanded sex from me when I hadn't even eaten something. You women are so wonderful...sure.
You women claim 'equality'? My arse. How about you women talk more about how you are abusing men left right and center? How about you talk more about all the legal privileges you want? About how when a woman hits a man it's humour but when a man hits a woman it's assault? About mandatory arrest policies? Where men like me get assaulted, kidnapped, and thrown in jail by blue gun thugs for calling our wife a liar because she lied to me? How about talking about some of THOSE topics. Men are REAL interested to hear how women claim 'equality' but justify having the cops as their own personal thugs to come into a mans house with guns drawn for no greater crime than 'princess is not happy'. Us older guys are telling the younger guys ALL ABOUT this stuff you women do. And they are listening. You women could help by being open and honest. But I only know two honest women in the west.
"it seemed to be what cham was implying"
The normally-interesting Cham has been saying a lot of wacky stuff on this thread.
I don't think anyone is saying women are packing on pounds "intentionally" - it's a subconscious psychological problem to either make themselves undesireable or not care that she's undesireable.
I worked with one woman you stated she intentionally was overweight and unkempt to make herself undesirable. You can debate the underlying psycho-pathology, but it was clearly intentional.
" Gracefully telling men that one isn't interested in their advances isn't as easy as it looks."
Well said. You made a good point.
Trey
Strange, no one mentioned the study they did that found that as far as body shape was concerned, a woman's waist-hip ratio of 0.7 was seen as optimum among males across all cultures surveyed. You can't achieve this by being stick-thin.
That said, let's face it - a lot of men will hit anything that doesn't say no.
Many years ago, a "buffalo heifer" who had taken to socializing with our motorcycle club developed an attraction to me. When another guy in the club informed me of it, I responded that "Life is too short to waste time f*cking fat women."
He responded, "Not true. Life is too short to waste time feeling guilty about f*cking fat women."
The situation presents something of a dilemma to this day.
No fatties for me.
For the fatty, the highway.
globalman100,
Dude, have a bad marriage? maybe you just made a poor decision, 6 kids? you better pay for em so I don't have to(and everyone else). I have been married for 23 years and my Wife is getting a bit plump, but we go at all the time, maybe you should have worked on that marriage first before bailing out like a Pig! and leave Cham alone, there are quite a few hot older ladies out there, you just can't get em I guess,
Yrgal
It is a provable fact that men prefer slender (non-overweight) women. The proof is in the enormous collection of pinups, centerfolds, posters, and female film/tv stars, bikini models, "girlie" calendars, etc. By far the most common type of woman appearing in the publications, posters, films, etc is the non-overweight woman.
If men truly had a preference for overweight (even slightly so) women, that preference would have shown up in the choice of women appearing in Playboy, Maxim, and the hundreds of other print and online publications -- and in Hollywood productions.
Sure, men will chase and date and sleep with overweight women but we are discussing preferences; not what guys will settle for. Reality doesn't often offer most men many choices of women. With identical twins: one slender and the other fat; few men would chose the fat one (on looks alone).
For various social reasons it is socially incorrect for a man to admit that he prefers slender women. The Oprah Syndrome requires everyone to conceal true preferences and only state the socially "correct" position (such things as "beauty comes from inside"). Can you imagine what would happen if some man were to openly say, "I'm just not attracted to overweight women" on a TV talk show? How about on "The View"?
What I find interesting is that while a man will be excoriated for stating his preference for non-overweight women, it is perfectly acceptable for women to state that she won't date anyone under a certain height.
This double standard is very common in spite of the fact that while a woman's weight is something she can change; a short man can do nothing to make himself taller.
I prefer a woman who is as ineterested in her body as I am -- and who recognizes the value (and great power) of a feminine form.
Why are most men more attracted to thinner women? Because they look healthier, and probably more important, younger. Traditionally, men have been most attracted to the traditional 3:2:3 ratio of bust, waist, and hips. This has been both health and age ramifications, both of which imply better breeding potential. In short, over the ages, the more classically shapely (3:2:3) the woman is, the better the chances that she will leave healthy grandchildren.
The problem with putting on weight for most women is that it doesn't tend to go on proportionally. And, so, the women end up looking less healthy and young to men.
The age part of it is that we all tend to put on weight as we age. I live in a relatively rural community, where most people from maybe 30 on up carry excess weight. It seems like the females are thin in high school and for awhile after that. But they get married early, and soon too are carrying too much weight - often well before they are 30.
While men are programmed for youth and beauty, women are programmed for power and success in men. It is not that excess weight is not a concern, but rather, that it often is not as important to the appearance of power and success. Add to that that many men do not come into their full power until later in life, when many have gained some extra weight, and you end up seeing some overweight men with beautiful women falling over them for their attention.
I'll admit right out front that I am a pig. I like small butts,fake tits,makeup and fingernails. That being said, a heavy woman with a good attitude beats the hell out of a bitchy skinny one.
Cham, there's only one thing that women hate more than getting hit on all the time, not getting hit on all the time.
Yrgal,
ah yes. The usual diatribe of 'blame the man' without knowing anything about the specific case. Manginas like you abound Yrgal. I have actually developed the remedy for the fraudulent contract of marriage and will be publishing a FREE book on it in the not too distant future. As for working on that marriage? LOL!! My wife asked me to take her back after it was agreed to separate. I refused. I didn't love her any more. She had been too cruel for too long. She had been told by a long string of counsellors to lift her game over a period of more than 15 years. I stayed for the kids far longer than many women do. She said herself a less persistent man would have divorced her years ago. As husbands and fathers they don't come any better than me. As for can't get any? I am very satisfied with the women I date now. I think you missed the comment that my fav#1 is 170cms, 50kgs and can run a marathon in 4 hours. I won't be dating any oldies or fatties any more. I tell every young man I meet not to get married or have children with the vast bias in the family courts. 5% is the new 50% if you are a man. That was the % assets so generously given to me despite I was the sole income earner for 16 years of an 18 year marriage, renovated two houses, and paid for 2 children of a previous marriage. When I tell young men that they are astonished. Well that's what 'marriage' is now. Women like the 5% vs 95% split just fine. Of course, that was a crime and I am persuing remedy. I tell the young men to let the women have their vibrators and cats.
Ha ha ck, too true!
Wayne,
"That said, let's face it - a lot of men will hit anything that doesn't say no."
Yep..they sure will. I had a flat mate who took the approach "If you just lower your standards far enough you WILL get laid". Oh...some of the fatties he brought home. Uuggh. I have my self respect. As a long term married man I had to learn to go without. But Germany is full of hot looking eastern european women. I won't even talk to a western woman now I've sampled so much better.
Yrgal,
"maybe you should have worked on that marriage first before bailing out like a Pig!"
Your flip attitude shows that you know jack sh** about globalman's divorce.
The marriage debate is weird. Men who have been destroyed by it understandably tell anyone who will listen (and most won't) that it's not worth it. Men with happy marriages say "how could you possibly not want to get married?!?" and tell divorced, robbed men it's their fault.
Cham said: We all have the ability to look any way we wish
No, we don't. This is one of the great lies of our time, and it's pushed very heavily by the entertainment and diet industries.
Most can control weight within certain limits by diet and exercise, but genetic limitations mean that it's vastly more difficult for some individuals than others, plus body shape is only partly a factor of weight gain or loss.
There are men who want 'washboard abs' and exercise brutally to get them, but they just don't appear because for genetic reasons, their bodies have a thicker layer of subcutaneous fat there than some others. They may be in fantastic shape, but they don't have the washboard abs and can't get them by any reasonable level of effort.
Likewise, women can control their weight, but for some it's relatively easy and for some it's sheer torture, requring incredible levels of effort to achieve the same results that another woman can achieve with minor effort.
Notice how this subject brings out the sheer rude viciousness in commentary, too.
Here's another double standard:
A woman can be a soul destroying nag, passive aggressive, or an outright bitch, and she is merely "communicating her unmet needs."
If a guy finally blows his top and shouts or cusses, he is being "psychologically abusive"
Fat or overweight women in their 20s really do not have it all that good when it comes to dating and sex. There *are* men who find fat women sexually attractive and will sleep with them--and some of these men are attractive, educated, and not obese themselves. But their attraction to fat women seems to be a fetish or something they keep to themselves. When they look for romantic partners, they seek out thin or average weight women.
I am quite obese and while I had some options when it came to men, it was clear how many men were totally uninterested in me because of my weight. I did eventually find someone who is attracted to me in every aspect, and together we have a great relationship that is emotionally and sexually fulfilling. He was not overweight when we met, but since leaving the military he has put on some extra pounds. I still find him sexy--in part because what attracts me to him goes beyond the merely physical. (I think that men are much less likely to feel the same way.)
"I still find him sexy--in part because what attracts me to him goes beyond the merely physical. (I think that men are much less likely to feel the same way.)"
Oh, hogwash. You're better than all those mean guys who wouldn't go out with you because you love your man even though he has a few extra pounds? Plenty of guys are not demanding stick-thin, work-out-all-the-time starlets and find a woman's brain and heart plenty attractive.
I think you're reading way too much into my comment there, Topher, and assuming an animosity that simply doesn't exist. All over the Internet I find many posts or comments by men who decry a woman's weight gain over time and complain about their loss of physical attraction for her, no matter how much they love her brain and heart. I am simply struck by my experience as a woman who has not lost any desire for her mate despite his change in physical appearance. It's so different from what so many men report. No value judgment on my part.
If male, do you care
if a woman is overweight?
I don't if she doesn't. :)
I missed this, busy busy here. But... I love women. A little extra is okay, but it (in the balance) is not as good as proper (not twig thin either though). The thing that concerns me about a woman with extra weight is... what will she do with children. I simply would not be sexually attracted to a couch bomb. And yet, extra weight is far better than skinny.
And yet, these mean little when compared to how the woman lives. If she eats good food, is and stays active, and keeps her own place kempt in a proper way, a little extra meat on those bones will work well. She does have to have a very defined figure, weigh less than my left leg and arm (proportioned to height... cubits? *grins), and such, but... In a way, it is about who she is. What women are I cannot change, what is available is what I have to work with. In my mid 40's and where I have chosen to live, I have to be practical... and that might even make finding a woman worth my seed difficult.
Maybe a lot of the men in that study took trips to Thailand.
The obese women are probably getting less sex because they somehow fail to realize that they are obese and expect good looking guys or financially successful guys to fall for them. Obese guys on the other hand probably are used to downgrades in life and dont give a damn about how bad the woman is(both in looks and money).
Also the obese men probably paid for sex while women think that they should get it for free just like they get everything else.
Men and women want different things in part.
Men seem to be attracted to looks in a woman first; if she has a job and is not a leech, that is secondary
Women are attracted to status and money first; if he looks good that is better, but secondary
Given that, you would expect that fatter men do as well as thinner men. Also given that, you would expect that fat women don't get as much play as thinner women.
redrajesh
"while women think that they should get it for free just like they get everything else."
Well said redrajesh. That the criminal family court handed over 95% of the proceeds of my 25 years of labour to a woman who refused point blank to work despite having a degree and being a professional software developer and OTHER women LAUGH at me rather than see it as the crime it is tells you just how 'entitled' they are to things for free. Men should spread the word women laugh at men who are victims of crime by their wives and the criminal family court.
globalman100,
Although you come across too strongly (in my opinion), I agree with the essence of a lot of what you are saying.
If it helps any, I think it's absolutely bizarre that women AND MEN think that men are just there to work for the woman. Men truly think it too.
Think that you got out with your life, and that you will never be working for a woman again. Be happy about that. Don't dwell on the past.
"Men should spread the word women laugh at men who are victims of crime by their wives and the criminal family court."
Just today I pointed out a false rape case where a woman's guy didn't do enough housework to please her, so she cried rape to get back at him. My girlfriend's response was "that's what he gets for not helping, hahaha."
Women think violence and crimes against men is funny. No matter what they say, Western women (in general) have been conditioned into narcissism and entitlement and to hate men. Some of them are overt with this and truly want nothing to do with men. Others simply view men as a lesser human, whose lot is to be a walking wallet and programmable dildo.
And JG points out the weirdest thing - MEN BACK THIS UP! White knighters shame men, while some men simply voluntarily do it out of some autophobic castrated sense of "duty."
The very first comment is on the mark - women with a few extra pounds have poor self-esteem, and are usually willing to go "the extra mile." Also, having gone there frequently, they usually are less squeemish about some guys' "preferred behaviors."
JG,
"Although you come across too strongly (in my opinion)"
Can you please explain to me how one speaks 'too stongly' to stop the needless deaths of tens of thousands of men every year? I'm not familiar with the idea of speaking 'too strongly' to stop mass murder. And mass murder it is because those in power know exactly what they are doing in destroying men via the criminal family courts.
So please explain to me how one speaks out 'too strongly' to stop mass murder and the systematic violation of the rights of 49% of the poplation. Men should be screaming blue murder at the violation of their rights not 'wrapping it up in cotton wool'.
One estimate in Australia places the number of dead men per year from the abuse of the FC+CSA at 4,000. To put that in perspective that is 10x the adult male death by car accident rate. Many of these men commit suicide because of the crimes committed against them and the violation of their inalienable right to be the father they dreamed of being and the violation of their inalienable right to their property. As a man who WAS suicidal for a month I know how these men feel right before they kill themselves.
Me? I'm doing all I can to stop these needless deaths. Are you? I am not 'dwelling on the past'. I have taken it upon myself to end the tyranny and crimes of women wielding the criminals in the Family Courts as their own private thugs. I have already proven my remedy which is one reason why they stole my house off me. Well? It's going to take more than stealing everything I ever worked for to stop a man like me from introducing the rule of law. My FREE book will show men how to divorce their wife/state, deny the jurisdiction of the FC, refuse to pay income taxes, alimony and child support, ALL LAWFULLY, and walk away. Just like I did. I have a GREAT life because I DONT have a woman in my house. Fat or otherwise... ;-)
Topher,
"Just today I pointed out a false rape case where a woman's guy didn't do enough housework to please her, so she cried rape to get back at him. My girlfriend's response was "that's what he gets for not helping, hahaha.""
Thank you for saying this. For speaking out I am currently being targeted by a woman making allegations that I am a paedophile. Women will laugh at this but ALL the men here know that a FALSE allegation of being a paedophile can seriously damage a mans business. It is also a crime called slander. Women LAUGH at us when we have crimes committed against us. I asked women in the Irish Free Man group to fairly and justly try my ex for the crimes she committed and only three women would volunteer. Yet ALL women would volunteer to try a man who has committed rape. I could sell tickets to wembley for women to sit on juries to put men away who have actually committed rape.
It's high time MEN EVERYWHERE denouced ANY WOMAN who is not willing to sit on a jury and fairly and justly judge and if found guilty punish any woman who has committed a crime against men. I certainly do. And so should every other man. Women have absolutely no defense because, as you point out, they laugh at us when we have crimes committed against us. There can be no greater hypocrisy than to demand men 'provide and protect' while laughing in our face when one of their own commits crimes against us. How about men here ask Helen to start talking to other women and publishing articles about these critical issues? Places like www.the-sprearhead.com are publishing these articles every day. I am sick to death of the 'privilege princesses' western women are and I have nothing to do with them. Other men are well advised to speak their mind fearlessly about this as well.
"Can you please explain to me how one speaks 'too stongly' to ..."
----
Sure: Rhetoric has to be effective. If you turn readers off, so that they not only don't want to change their opinion to yours, they actively turn against you, your rhetoric is too strong.
You are just venting your anger. That's fine, because I do it too and am not particularly trying to convince anyone of anything here, but ... since you asked ...
You don't want to have *effective* rhetoric? You just want people to fall in line with you no matter what? That's not a particularly mature view of the world or reality.
globalman,
"How about men here ask Helen to start talking to other women and publishing articles about these critical issues?"
I think you must be new here. Helen is very good about posting articles of critical importance to men's issues. In the last few months she has posted stuff on a woman who dumped a man because he used a coupon, women blinding men by beating them with their high-heeled shoes, bullshit alimony cases, misandrist judges, male bashing re the financial crisis, a mangina columnist at Townhall.com who said women were better and smart men knew it and a ridiculous website where a vindictive wife purports to "train" her husband by witholding sex and household duties.
Most importantly, she allows us to discuss these issues, going to the brink of and sometimes breaching decorum.
She has said she is sometimes possessed with anger about mistreatment of men in today's society. Dr Helen is an unqualified friend of ours.
It was from Dr Helen's blog (which I came to from Durham-in-Wonderland and the Duke rape hoax, incidentally) that I got linked to Roissy, the Spearhead, and all the others I read.
I think women should be sturdy. I like giving bear hugs. My mate likes receiving them. We are well matched.
Topher,
"I think you must be new here."
I admit I am new here. I found this site this week from Hawaiian Libertarians link via Vox.
I've 'pinged' for want of a better word a few womens blog sites like 'Equal but different'. So far the best site for women standing up for men and denouncing the lies of feminism is 'Ladies Against Feminism'. They are doing a GREAT job. But it is about time that there were more women speaking out about this. Usually women just hurl abuse back when I given them a little 'poke with a blunt stick' which is what this little discussion is. I support ANY woman who is willing to sit on a jury and try women for crimes committed against men. I called for that on spearhead. Guess what? Not many women will volunteer for that.
JG,
This is off topic and so I'll be brief. Perhaps Helen will one day put a post on this. I have written plenty on my intro post at spearhead (from which I have been banned by the way! LOL!!)
Actually, I disagree. He's why. Virtually 100% of western women rather like the 'status quo' with respect to their massive legal privilege and they don't give a toss about all those men dying and all those men exiled from the lives of their children. Take a look out in the real world. Where are the women prepared to sit on a jury and punish women guilty of crimes? Nowhere to be seen. In all former british lands common law is still in force. This means ANY 12 women can come together and form a jury and fairly and justly try and punish a woman who commits crimes. The 'law society' CLAIMS a monopoly on practicing law. They don't even practice law. They practice Uniform Commercial Code and this is proven. LAW is what 12 MEN on a jury decide it is. No judge. No lawyers. Now, in these 'enlightened times' I made the offer to WOMEN on the free man group in Ireland and the spearhead to participate in the critical task of dispensing justice by volunteering to sit on juries to dispense justice. They won't do it. Why? Because they don't want to. They LIKE how it is.
Similarly MEN who are invited to do this important job mostly refuse to volunteer too. They abdicate this important and critical responsibility to the 'law society' which is a bunch of criminal scumbags which I have proven and so have many other men.
So. Who counts? The ONLY people who count are MEN who are willing to sit on juries to justly and fairly try MEN and WOMEN who are accused of crimes and then to issue a remedy instruction if the person is found guilty. Period. (Remember, women were asked and said no so I'm not asking them any more.) These MEN are less than 5% of MEN. But men are whimps now. Sadly so. So 'rhetoric'? To 'persuade'? What is required is to smack those 5% of guys between the eyes hard enough that they say "You know, GM is right, 'we the people' are the ultimate authority in our land and 'we the people' have a superior right to dispense justice than a private satanic criminal group calling itself 'the law society'".
And I tell you this. Even those 5% of men are REAL HARD to find. We have a bunch of us in Ireland and we are leading the world there. But elsewhere? Nope. Such brave men are few and far between. The other 97.5+% of the population will just 'go along' like sheep. Just like they are now. There's no point persuading them of anything. They are of no great use in bringing in the rule of law.
globalman,
Glad to have you aboard.
The difference is that Dr Helen doesn't really make her kick as a "woman" - she doesn't claim to speak for women or address her posting to specific genders, although obviously her posts are of much male interest.
There's a real problem in society where people don't want to acknowledge serious problems if they aren't directly affected. Ergo, most women, and guys without serious relationship problems, go "what's the big deal, you must be bitter," leaving only the guys who HAVE been screwed to speak out against it, so the scene becomes more shrill and laced with emotion because those who haven't been hosed won't speak out because they're gettin' theirs, and it all goes in a self-fulfilling reduction.
Topher,
"Glad to have you aboard."
Thank you. Glad to find a few other men who actually understand what is going on. I'll be quiet now. ;-)
Just in case men here miss it. Men must die so women don't get their nose cut off...according to time magazine. Um...where are the women only battalions of 'equal women' feminists willing to go into Afgahnistan? Oh yeah, that's right, 'equal' does not mean 'equally likely to be killed'.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2007269,00.html
global,
Funny, I don't recall Time running front-page pictures of the victims of Saddam Hussein.
The press is so self-serving...they could run pictures like this for almost any international conflict or intervention situation.
I find excessively thin women to be less attractive than women who are more "voluptuous", even "Ruebenesque" in stature. YMMV, but I'm not turned on by the anorexic "concentration camp survivor" look.
Hi Marsh,
just for you for calling my lovely lady friends 'cum recepticals'. Here is Jaclyn Friedman openly announcing how 'sluthood saved me'... ;-) Oh..These feminsts...they are so empowered. NONE of the women I have dated would be as indiscreet as this.
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/08/02/feminist-writer-celebrates-her-inner-slut/
Don't miss this bit. ;-)
"I’m telling you this because sluthood requires support. Because any woman who indulges these urges carries with her a lifetime of censure and threat. That’s a loud chorus to overcome. A slut needs a posse who finds her exploits almost as delicious as she finds them herself, who cares about her safety and her stories and her happiness but not one whit about her virtue. A slut alone is a slut in difficulty, possibly in danger."
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