Would you dump a woman for using a coupon?
I was reading dating advice for women from men at Cosmo and came across a rather amusing letter to "the guy guru who answers your most pressing sex and love questions." The letter is from a woman who is upset that a guy used a coupon to buy her dinner:
The guy guru gives okay advice back, not great, but not bad:
Well, I thought it was nice that the guy bought her dinner. I would think a coupon was a little quirky and endearing, but that's me. If it was reversed and a woman pulled out a coupon to pay on a first date, would you dump her or just be glad she paid?
On the other hand, the equivalent for women might be something different than paying for a meal with a coupon--it might be something appearance oriented or behavioral that a guy would find just as questionable. What would that be?
I went out for dinner with this guy, and it was great — we got along well, and there was a definite spark. But when it came time to pay, he pulled out a coupon. I'm hardly a princess, but that totally killed it for me. Am I being too hard on him?
The guy guru gives okay advice back, not great, but not bad:
It was unquestionably a boneheaded maneuver on his part, but yes, cutting him loose on that one faux pas sounds extreme. There are factors to weigh. For one, how old is the dude? If he's still in school or graduated recently, it could just be that he hasn't dated a lot and was short on funds — the economy isn't exactly booming right now. And to be fair, he didn't ask you to go dutch, so he did still take you out to dinner.
If he's older and financially stable, then you have more reason to be turned off. Any guy with a little experience should know that you don't flash coupons on a first date — you bide your time till the chick is in the bathroom, then feverishly shove it into the waiter's hand! In all seriousness, it could be a sign that he'd turn out to be a cheapskate.
Well, I thought it was nice that the guy bought her dinner. I would think a coupon was a little quirky and endearing, but that's me. If it was reversed and a woman pulled out a coupon to pay on a first date, would you dump her or just be glad she paid?
On the other hand, the equivalent for women might be something different than paying for a meal with a coupon--it might be something appearance oriented or behavioral that a guy would find just as questionable. What would that be?
Labels: men and dating
posted by Helen at 5:01 PM
143 Comments:
First of all, I think it is polite to tell the waiter before the meal that you will be using a coupon. This way you can make sure what is ordered adheres to the coupon requirements. There might be special menu selections that apply and not others. Also, this way your dinner date can help in the ordering process. I'm a frequent restaurant coupon user, I recommend this site as a great place to find restaurants that provide excellent deals. I also make it clear to the waiter that I will be tipping as if I was paying full price so that his/her tip will not be affected by the coupon. That usually starts the meal off on the right foot.
One of the men that I am dating now used a coupon on our first date, I didn't think anything of it other than he was as thrifty as I was. He had excellent coupon-handling skills. I can be offended by other things like when a date a few years ago pulled out a calculator and added up the bill that was already tabulated by a computer to make sure the math was correct. I thought that was a bit overboard.
No coupon: sex for dinner. Coupon? foreplay but no sex.
Did you enjouy the date? Did you enjoy the meal? What if he pad for it with cash and not credit card or credit card and not cash? He paid for it so enjoy, eat, and shut the hell up.
Its funny how a woman would find the use of a coupon as a bad thing. Seriously, I would count it as a good thing, as saving money is WISE. I would, however, say that they guy should have hidden the use of the coupon for the simple fact of the matter is that a woman will hold you in higher esteem if she thinks you have more money to blow than you really do.
Still, I hope the woman does dump him. He is too good for a shallow person like her.
I find that people in dating (on both sides) use money as a proxy for the "making me feel special" vibe. Somehow we are supposed to be visibly "sacrificing"
and using a coupon is lessening that "sacrifice," so that's somehow an indicator of disinterest and lack of class. It's part of "qualifying your buyer" in all the wrong ways.
What garbage...the Cosmo reader quoted is ridiculously petty. Personally, I think it's high time everyone got over the financial showmanship of dating (usually, the man is expected to flash cash as a symbol of how interested he is). I'd suggest the reader pay for her own dinner on the date. To the guy, I would say thank the woman for dumping you this early, saving you a lifetime of the woman's controlling behavior which began on the first date.
I'm quite thrifty - it's how I plan to stay afloat if I lose my job or the economy continues to suck - and I strongly resent intimations that being thrifty is a negative social value.
"I also make it clear to the waiter that I will be tipping as if I was paying full price so that his/her tip will not be affected by the coupon."
Now this is something that has always blown my mind. If I order the steak or the burger, it takes the same effort to deliver the dish to my table...yet I'm expected to tip double for the steak because its menu price is twice that of the burger. Since I know servers don't make minimum wage I have no real problem tipping them to bring them up to a fair payment, but can somebody give me a good explanation for this steak-vs-burger phenomenon?
"the simple fact of the matter is that a woman will hold you in higher esteem if she thinks you have more money to blow than you really do."
Someone told me this a while back, couched as a threat. To which I responded "I guess I'll just have to wait for a woman who appreciates my sound financial habits." The response was stunned silence.
"In all seriousness, it could be a sign that he'd turn out to be a cheapskate."
Yes, because the purpose of a boyfriend is to spend money on his lady.
Makes me want to puke.
A date is either an "event" or it's not. Did you get dressed up? Did she? Did you select a nice restaurant? Did you pick her up? You do all that and break out a coupon when it's time to pay? Amateur hour. You're trying to impress so why screw it up at the last second. Pick somewhere you can afford without the coupon.
Did you ask her to "hang out some evening"? Are you wearing jeans? Is she? Are you at the casual corner bistro. Did she meet you there? Coupon, no problem.
Either scenario is OK but understand which one you're engaged in. If the coupon is a deal killer in scenario #1 you're better off without her anyway.
Topher:
Let's talk about the steak vs. the burger. It's a tip so the payer can adjust appropriately. If you order just a $25 steak and nothing more, all the waiter had to do was place your order and slap the steak in front of you then an adjusted tip would be in order. Now if you go to that same restaurant and order an appetizer and make the chef use olive oil instead of butter, coffee but you want Splenda which isn't on the table, and a desert with an extra fork so your companion can have a taste and the bill comes to $25, where the waiter had to make 10 trips back to the kitchen for you then you better be breaking out a decent sized gratuity.
She should dump him for taking her to a restaurant on a date that accepts coupons in the first place.
What, did he take her to Burger King? Wendy's ... or worse, Arbys?
Steak-vs.-burger and tipping: I should think the reason one tips more on the steak to be obvious. If you can afford a $25 steak, you can afford to tip $5 on it (if you cannot afford the tip, order something cheaper). If you order the $5 burger, it would be unreasonable to expect a tip of 100% of what you just ordered. Or would you like to calculate your burger tip based on my expensive bottle of wine?
OK,
Who here suspects Topher is actually Mr. Coupon?
Coupon on a first date?
I'm no expert, but chances are the discount will NOT be a seen as a net positive, and a second date will be unlikely.
Yes, I know, a woman should adore the very wonderfulness that is you (and who wouldn't?), rather than the amount you're shelling out for dinner and drinks.
But them's the rules.
Coupon = Loser.
So save the coupon, Mr. Thrifty, for date 3 or 4. And lighten up.
You're not all that.
I have had many women order very expansive meals and then ask for a doggy bag after eating less than one-half of the meal. Surprisingly, they are only available for a date in a week or two...nothing sooner.
Guys get used all the time. Yet, these same users will be among the most strident in the workplace in demanding equality.
Gas for the car, valet parking, meal, drinks, dancing, theater or movie... All paid for by guys.
Who owns the house, has no credit card debt, takes vacations and cruises, and drives a paid off car... the one who doesnt pay for companionship in this equal world...
Bitter_? Nope... I need feminine companionship as much as I need air and water... It's a price that I will pay because the alternative is too harsh... But it would be nice to have a invitation with the stipulation that the one offering picks the places and picks up the tab... That would be more equal and allow fr inventive dates... such as Brittany Spears recent Valentines Date at McDonalds...
Anything beyond companionship is lagniappe... and to be enjoyed by everyone involved. Not ever a debt to be repaid.
well, if it was 10% off then definitely not. But if it was, buy one get one free, then it is pretty hard to pass up and likely played a role in restaurant selection as well as the choice to go out to eat instead of just a movie with popcorn.
It is a sad state where being prudent is a dating no no. Those who would be turned off by this behavior will ultimately be lulled into a suckers bet, living the lifestyle and leveraged to the hilt. Those who embrace this behavior are likely to become millionaires, in lieu of just looking like one.
I think Florida is kind of on to something: using a coupon might suggest that the gentleman in question chose the restaurant at which they dined because he had a coupon for that restaurant. If I were the woman he'd invited, I would prefer to think his chose a restaurant based on his identification of an experience both he and I would enjoy, rather than because he could get away with 10% or 20% off the tab.
I'm fine with the coupon, fine with the frugality comments, and tend to agree with the commenter who suggested the gentleman in question is too good for someone as shallow as the questioner ... but I think there's more to the issue than mere finance. That is, romance.
I do have a bit of coupon story, I may have told it here before or not. I have a male friend (not a boyfriend) whom I wanted to take out to dinner. I had at that time 2 coupons for 2 different restaurants, buy one entree get one free kind of deal, one was Austin Grill and the other was Uno Pizza. I called my friend up and asked him to dinner telling him we would use a coupon and I would pay for everything. He said that he didn't like either restaurant and he would much rather have me take him (and pay for)to the expensive steak place. Needless to say, I didn't take him to dinner.
I don't want to take this thread off-topic but I think some men aren't used to dating etiquette when they are being the one treated to dinner. I've taken boyfriends out to dinner in the past and some of them order the most expensive thing on the menu because they aren't paying the bill. IMHO this is a bit of a dating no-no.
I have several female friends, some I'd characterize as very attractive, who think exactly the way the woman complaining about the coupon does. Oddly, all of them are single.
Does anyone remember this post: http://sexonmydesk.ivillage.com/love/archives/2007/10/if-you-want-a-rich-man-deedle.html
My wife and I are both cheap. If I had used a coupon on our first date she would have know I was the "one" much sooner!
I would be so happy to learn that a woman I had just had a first date with was judging me by whether or not I used a coupon. [Where I live even *very* upscale restaurants have them now. Well the ones that haven't gone out of business.]
That means I get to judge her on equally shallow terms, right? Did she pay $50 for a really nice hairdo? Nope? Out she goes. $100/oz perfume? Nope? Out with her. Has she worn that outfit more than a couple of times?
Luckily, a couple of decades ago I met a woman for whom more substantial things mattered more.
Her mother should be embarrassed that she raised such a shallow person.
Well, best of luck with the coupon strategy, guys.
Don't be surprised by the sudden need for hair-washing when the request for a second date arises, though.
As a guy: the real problem here is that the guy took her someplace, on a first date, that even TAKES coupons... Maybe I'm spoiled by city life, but this would have to be what? Olive Garden? TGIFridays? Outback? On a first date, when you're presumably trying to impress the woman, seriously? You have three choices: if you're skint go for just drinks, otherwise, to keep it cheap you go to a cheap but good local hole in the wall to show knowledge of the dining scene, or you go all out and take her to a nice place.
They're either in the middle of nowhere, or the guy has no taste to begin with.
He said that he didn't like either restaurant and he would much rather have me take him (and pay for) to the expensive steak place. Needless to say, I didn't take him to dinner.
Even if the invite wasn't intended to be a "date," you should watch the movie He's Just Not That Into You for an explainer.
"Well, best of luck with the coupon strategy, guys.
Don't be surprised by the sudden need for hair-washing when the request for a second date arises, though. "
I did, she married me
In this recession, many fine restaurants, local and otherwise, are offering coupons.
I'm taken aback by this. Who, but a primping princess seeking a profligate prince, would consider it awry to reduce a bill with a coupon? In this economy, it's just good sense.
You should also try to get her admitted to the movie theater as "under 12".
She'll appreciate the humor and your thriftiness!
If I had used a coupon on my first date with my fiancee, she would have married me on the spot. As it turns out, she's going to marry me anyhow, but using a coupon at any stage of the relationship - including the first date - would score serious bonus points with her. She values fiscal responsibility.
The interesting question as it pertains to dating is how did the fellow tip after he used the coupon?
If he's putting on a show for the girl that he's so rich that money is no object, the coupon will hurt that narrative. If you're both starving artists who are likely to have to scrimp and save to make a life together, then the display of frugality will help that narrative.
In either event, how you tip will send a message. Bad service and good tip: he's a fool. Good service and bad tip: he's a skinflint.
If he asks you what you thought of the service and tips in a manner commensurate with your opinion, it tells more than whether he used a coupon or not. (And I always tip on the basis of the pre-discounted price.)
"I did, she married me".
Congrats!
Still, if the purpose of your date is to meet someone and have some fun and maybe just maybe fall in love, the coupon is a distraction. It might be ignored, or even lauded, but there is a better than even chance it'll be seen as a bad sign.
You say you don't want to date a girl who would be put off by that?
Well, as I say, good luck. But Boardy has already married one of 17 women who thinks first date coupons are keen.
Back in 1987 I had a first date scheduled with a young woman I met while tending bar. A few hours before we were to go out she called me- she wanted to know if we could change our plans (dinner and movie) as she had free tickets to a Boston Harbor cruise. Being a broke college student I naturally said yes.
Things worked out pretty well, we've been married over 20 years and have NEVER fought about money. We both love bargains and still use coupons when going out to dinner.
Money differences can ruin a relationship, just be on the same page as your partner.
The guy needs to see this princess' inquiry and dump her as fast as he can.
That way she can apply to be one of those women on The Bachelor. I'm sure the guys they get to be "the bachelor" would never do something as classless as use a coupon. They just dump their final choice chick for one they were boning a couple of weeks back, and dumped by mistake.
If the purpose of the date is too see if you're compatible people, then the use of a coupon is immaterial except insofar as it identifies the letter writer as a bigger and shallower princess than she admits to.
If the purpose of the date is to impress one's date or to establish the creditworthiness of the potential partner, well, no wonder so many people end up married to people they have no real emotional attachment to.
Seems similar to women that judge a man by the car that he is driving. That's superficial and ultimately self defeating to the woman's long term interest.
I don't like to waste my money on expensive cars ... but I do vacation in Hawaii and eat at nice restaurants (sans coupons mostly).
I'd never even thought of pulling a coupon at a restaurant.. I typically either go full-rate or not at all (and the latter is better for saving $$).
Now coupons at Costco, OTOH..
There are many, many restaurants putting out coupons these days.
I find a good amount of them are new and trying to bring in people who wouldn't normally pay their ridiculous prices.
A fairly expensive NYC steak house is now taking worthless stock certificates as coupons, as a promotion.
Wonder how that would play into this scenario...
I imagine if Hannity set me up with a coupon for Ruth's Chris and I decided to take a date, I'd use the coupon.
There is nothing wrong with a coupon if it can be used at the placze where it is issued or a place that will take it. The rest of the stuff in all in your head.
"If the purpose of the date is to impress one's date or to establish the creditworthiness of the potential partner, well, no wonder so many people end up married to people they have no real emotional attachment to."
I will add to this that many people have been duped into the idea that your partner has to be "won over," with (pick one) proper dress and grooming, financial showoffness, sexual advances or lack of advances (he's gay, or she's a prude), knowledge of fine wines, how much they let the other person blather on, and a thousand other little proxies that don't have any actual value except as bits in a big morality play called "the date." It's really all checklisting against fantasy partners and it's nuts.
Lots of people believe they have to "prove" themselves to someone who is not really interested at the beginning. Among other things, the pickup artists feed into this by promising their students can talk stone-faced women into the sack. When people have been taught to "court" and "win over," when women screen their men by dress and money and not by chemistry and future vision, yes, Michael, "no wonder so many people end up married to people they have no real emotional attachment to."
A thought experiment: what if, instead of a coupon, the guy took the woman to a restaurant where he knew the owner, and the boss gave the guy a discount on his bill? I bet she wouldn't be calling him a cheapo then.
It's all about fantasy - the fantasy of being "taken care of." Unfortunately for these women, I was raised with the modern idea that women can work and make money, too, so it's not really my job to "take care" of her just because of my chromosomes.
"I'll go full price or don't go at all."
So the purpose of a date is to impress the woman with how much money you can spend on her? Fun low cost date don't count? I like to suggest relatively cheap, fun dates to weed out the women that think I need to spend alot of money on them on the first date. Screw that.
I can see Pogo now with the half buttoned down leisure suit and gold chains. "Hey, baby I got money. Hop in." He'll get a date but maybe not the one he thinks he's getting.
Topher is my hero. He got right to the heart of the matter: This woman's upset is because she demands that men prove to her that they are willing to sacrifice without counting or caring about the cost of fulfilling her whims.
She should dump the guy--it's the best thing that will happen to him all night.
In terms of arrogant overreaching, this woman is the female equivalent of a guy who demands anal on the first date.
If it were me, I might take it as a sign that the guy is a little fussy, counting every penny, having to have things just so. It's like if a woman kept him waiting, or re-did her makeup at the table (more than just a quick re-application of lip gloss), or if either requested some super-complicated special order or sent the food back for something minor.
It just kind of looks picky, like the person might be more high maintenance than I might want. Not a deal-breaker, but a sign.
BTW, I think Olive Garden/Chillis/etc type restaurants are fine for a first date. Affordable, predictable, not generally bad food, no pressure. (Hubby and I went to O'Charley's, which is a similar type of family steakhouse.) Save the fancy places for when you've been together a while and can really appreciate the food.
So save the coupon, Mr. Thrifty, for date 3 or 4. And lighten up You're not all that.
I have a better idea: Save the coupons for after you get married.
And make her deal with 'em.
Lot less hassle that way for you, sir.
Cuz she 'ain't all that.
Unfortunately, Pogo is correct that the guy's chance of a second date is considerably lessened if he uses a coupon on the first date.
I date frequently and I've found that slender, attractive women have lots of tests they use to weed out guys on dates. Several weeks ago I was out with a woman and the subject of these tests came up. I asked her whether she had any tests. She said she had been out with a man and asked him what kind of Chinese food he liked. He failed her test by responding that he liked almond chicken. She insisted that her dates be culinarily adventurous and almond chicken didn't cut it for her. Incidentally, I passed this test, as well as several others she had, but ultimately failed one of her other tests.
Dating is an ordeal, more like a job interview than having fun. And a job interview you have to pay for!
Last Thursday I went out with a woman on our third date. I took her to dinner at a fairly nice restaurant each time. I offered to cook dinner at our next date, but I gave her the choice between my cooking dinner and going to a restaurant again. I'm a good cook.
She thought for a moment and responded, "Make reservations".
Larry:
In my world, the answer should have been, "Make reservations but this time let me pay."
Are you sure you want to pursue this?
That is the problem Larry. "Slender, attractive". They know it so they are going to take you for all they can get. I am sure it's the same on the men's side. "I'm hot, I know it so I'll see what I can get." I am looking for a companion that I can get along with and share common values and interests. What you describe sounds like a business transaction. I have dated fat, thin, tall, short, white, black, brown, yellow and a few are still very good friends and my current girlfriend is a 5'8" beauty. Sure she is great looking but I would have traded her in an instant for someone with whom we shared the important things.
I'm a guy, and I would be impressed if a girl used a coupon. And I hope she would be impressed as well.
But, then again, I'm Jewish and Israeli!
Sam Scott
www.samueljscott.com
(I left this comment on the wrong post first. Please delete it there!)
Next time someone gives you or a male friend of yours grief because of coupon-using on a date, may I suggest to point them to this article at SmartMoney.com, called 10 Things Millionaires Won't Tell You?
Number two is "I shop at Wal-Mart".
A woman paid my way into the Boston Museum of Fine Arts the other day, and used her membership card to get a discounted guest ticket.
I thought "keeper!".
It depends on if you are looking to get laid, or looking for a potential life companion. If the former, then by all means it makes sense to play the odds by trying to impress. If the latter, it is counter-productive to pretend to be something you are not. Ladies, by making it clear you are scoring the performance, you are encouraging the former. Me? Married 30+ years. Coupons are just as good as money, and cheaper.
Oh, BTW. I read this to my husband, expert coupon-clipper that he is.
His answer regarding that coupon-using kvetch: "What an a-hole!"
And no, he didn't grow up with a silver spoon in his mouth. As a kid, he had times in which his parents had no idea of where their next meal was going to come from. They ate spaghetti with mushroom sauce for months at a time. They ate wild corn, for cryin' out loud! Everything he has today, he has earned.
Many of these "cheapskates" usually know how to survive when the proverbial excrement hits the fan around them - and teach others how to do likewise.
I'd be more shocked that she actually bought dinner. The average self-absorbed female doesn't do that.
Wow, you posters are all so kind. My response is:
Fuck you, you freeloading selfish bitch.
What's next? She getting pissed off when he buys her a gift and she finds out he bought it on sale or, worse, he didn't buy it at some overpriced boutique store?
HE BOUGHT YOU DINNER you selfish cow and you have the audacity to say he did something wrong. Anyone who excuses this bitches attitude is perfectly silly.
I figure if a guy uses a coupon, he's thinking ahead, he's self-confident, and he probably has a fiscally responsible parent or grandparent who taught him about coupons. All good things. I would love it if my daughter brought home a coupon guy!
He definitely needs some coaching on how to pick a date...
"Larry:
In my world, the answer should have been, "Make reservations but this time let me pay." "
Cham,
I've never disliked you, only disagreed with you, but let it be known that this is a major personal point in your favor. Good couplehoods should be mutual, so even if it's the "man's job" to initiate the dating, it can only become a mutual enterprise if the woman is prepared to take on some leadership at some point. You clearly are, so party on.
Larry - Cham is right that you should think about this. Third date and she's not comfortable experiencing an intimate expression of your personality, or worse is working you for expensive dinners?
If you can afford a $25 steak, you can afford to tip $5 on it
Off-topic, but when did 20% become the standard tip? Growing up (I'm 31), 15% was the standard, and maybe you gave 20% if you really liked the service. Now it seems you're a cheapskate if you tip under 20%. When did that happen?
The woman is an idiot and, no doubt, will remain single for a good long time.
I told a lady I had met at a social gathering via email that I would love the chance to talk with her one on one sometime. I suggested meeting for a drink, maybe coffee, split a piece of pie? She said yes to the pie, saying that it was an offer she had never had before. Later she asked why I wanted to share, I explained that it is something I do only with people I trust and respect.
Second date coming soon.
I'd be impressed if a woman used a coupon. Fiscal responsibility is a wonderful trait in a future wife. If he is just dating her for a physical relationship, then it doesn't really matter.
There is no reason the woman should have witnessed any financial exchange. When dealing with this class of female, the gentleman should remove himself to the cashier's alcove and deal, man-to-man, with the maitre d'hotel.
Play by her rules: confer directly with her father concerning dowry and sureties. Has the family doctor certified her virginity? See to it.
Getting women to not care about the ritual has about the same chance of happening as getting a female bird to not care about the male bird bringing her the twigs for her nest--because it's the same thing.
using a coupon would not be a deal breaker for me. i relish any opportunity to save money. however, the man who took me out to dinner and then complained for the rest of the evening about the $6 glass of wine did not get a second date.
kf
That is why many men are opting out....
Marc Rudov and the PUA community do have one good piece of advice for this kind of situation: if you have to "pay for it," you either have poor game or you are with the wrong kind of woman. If it's going to go well, you two should get along and both be thirsty for a second date no matter whether a coupon was involved or some other petty disqualifier.
Rudov claims 80% of American woman are "takers" who demand financial transfer as part of dating and screen men for their ability to fund a social lifestyle. I think that number might be high, but anyone who's been in the young dating scene can tell you that entitled princesses are _everywhere_, and so I'd tell Coupon Man to thank his date for showing her true colors and find a lady who appreciates or at least is neutral.
Guys, it is true - you don't have to pay for it. Find a woman you get along with and you don't have to have these fights. kf is wrong, they do exist. This is the 21st century, so it's no man's social responsibility to "provide for" a woman. It's ironic that the ones who feel they should be provided for often bring absolutely nothing to the table except a huge ego and in many cases a huge ass.
Now boys, once you find a woman who appreciates you for you and doesn't think it's your job to provide for her, your mutual generosities will provide for one another far more than a sense of entitlement ever could for either of you.
Topher:
80% of American woman are 'takers' who demand financial transfer as part of dating . . . I'd tell Coupon Man to thank his date for showing her true colors
---and go through 3 more just like her until you---
. . . find a lady who appreciates or at least is neutral.
80% means you have to be willing to pass up 4 'takers' to get to a 'keeper.'
This is something I can actually teach my sons. And my daughters, come to think of it. Thank you for putting it concisely.
Many women seem to be attracted to men who are willing to pass them up. See Shallow Hal and the practice of 'negging.'
once you find a woman who appreciates you for you Only at the end of The Game does it seem that Style adjusts (abandons?) his game to actually get Her. She's the one for whom game does not work and it confuses the living shit out of him.
I wonder whether he still has Her?
To me it comes down to a point of respect.
For instance - if it is someplace you could normally afford and would normally go then yes, I can see being irritated. There is something there that says "You aren't worth full price".
OTOH if you make it clear up front that you can go to a much nicer place because you have a buy one get one free meal then nope - she shouldn't be offended. Indeed, you are "sacrificing" said coupon to be with her.
Lastly, this also assumes a decent financial state and early in the dating process. I've been through 4 years of unemployment where 10 free dollars was a treat, to expect me to pay for some meal is a lack of respect to me too. Further at the point it really doesn't matter where one goes it shouldn't really matter the coupon status either.
Further guys *do* notice when females order the most expensive thing on the menu (and even worse often eat 1/4 of it), the difference is that at this point you switch into "get some" mode (males tend to have three states - relationship, purchase you, and not interested). That almost always signals a lack of respect and the male is simply a wallet and you are treated in that manner too (can't say how many females do that and then are shocked, shocked I say, when the male treats them as a commodity to be purchased - well you set the price, don't be shocked when someone pays it and wants what you offered).
In the end at a base level males see a ratio between your bust, hips, and thighs and females see the size of your wallet. Anytime you loose a lack of respect this is what it degenerates into (true no matter who does the first act).
There are few real hard rules. I can show you females who purchased the most expensive thing on the menu and ate 1/4 of it that I know did so because it is their favorite food and that is all they eat. I can show you males who using a coupon at Burger King is a real sacrifice and you would otherwise be eating microwaved hotdogs and/or plain ramen noodles.
Anyone who is irritated by either of those *should* be ignored (or treated for their body/wallet), otherwise roll with it and be happy.
Maybe, if the circumstances are right, the man could say to her something like, "I have a coupon for MY meal, so I can spend more money on YOU." Win-win! :)
I've never used a coupon on a date (I'm over 50 and the places I go to rarely have coupons anyway), but I wouldn't have thought twice about it. That is, until I saw an episode of "As Time Goes By" on PBS. Lionel gets a free cruise as part of publicity on his book, and he offers to take Jean. She's quite insulted.
I've also had a couple of friends take me out (to places we all like) and use a coupon. I'm at a restaurant I like with people I like, I'm eating what I like, and I'm not paying. What could I possibly complain about?
Actually my comment wasn't that women are hopeless, but that the courtship ritual of the "male provider" is millions of years old, timeless and cross-species. It isn't the women's fault that they think this way, any more than it is men's fault that they are more visually oriented.
(On a side note, remember that in most species, the females are the visual ones and the males are the ones with spectacular plumage or coloring.)
If you're going to go on a "date" (where the expectation is that you pay for everything for the Princess), you may as well do it right. That means not being stupid and using coupons.
I see lots of men here suggesting that women shouldn't be superficial and all the rest - but they are. Most of them anyway, and if you are on a "date" where you have to be the supplicant to Her Highness then yes, she falls into that category.
Don't waste your time wishing that women were different. That's not going to change in the lifetime of anyone here.
What men "should" do (and they are not going to stop their behavior anymore than women will stop theirs) is to see women for what they really are. Not up on a pedestal and not with qualities and virtues attributed to her that she just doesn't have. It's all an illusion and don't be stupid.
Now that I think about it, EVERY man should use a coupon on a near-first date. Any woman who objects is 100% guaranteed to be a gold-digger.
Coupons are one of the best qualification methods for disqualifying professional daters and crypto-prostitutes.
Use 'em.
Nate Whilk:
Funny you should bring that "As Time Goes By" episode up. I watched that years ago and didn't get it. A free cruise is a free cruise, at least that is what I thought at the time.
However, one of the guys I date is also an author. He just released a new book 6 weeks ago. I'm in Jean's shoes, I'm getting the "free" trips to tag along to promote the book. Let me tell you something, these trips aren't free. There are frayed nerves to calm, appointments to make sure the author keeps. There are books to be carried around.... very heavy books. You become the lecture organizer, the power point slide fixer, the smiling SO that helps answer questions and, worst of all, boring after boring book discussion to sit through. It's work, trust me.
As far as Jean and Lionel are concerned, that might have been a cultural disconnect. Remember they are British. Here in American we worship Walmart and Dollar General, where in many other nations they are shopping at Prada and Luis Vitton. We've taken penny pinching to a new level that only can be appreciated by Mexico, other countries scoff.
the pua teaching provides options. one of which allows a man to simply walk away and not look back.
there are many great female companions out there, getting on with thier lives and not riding the gravy train from date to date...and they aren`t in bars or pricey restaurants sitting across from a walking credit card either.
women who do that knowing they are eating for free have no self-respect, and deserve all they get.
and i wonder how a woman who "dates" different men simultaniously sees the coupon thing.....
I agree with Jeff Y. It also occurs to me that maybe the man was testing the woman with the coupon and she flunked the test.
This thing about the coupon being a "test": Puuuh-leeeze.
It's only a test if you don't have much money and she's not very good at the game.
A pro like Heather Mills, for instance, would have looked lovingly at Paul in the beginning whether he used a coupon or not.
Second point: I've seen guys tell me they've got a real woman and a keeper and all the rest - and if I get to know her at all, sometimes you can see that the man is simply deluded.
Sometimes the delusion bubble is never popped, and everyone lives happily ever after. Sometimes an unexpected event occurs, like the man losing his money, and then the truth comes out. Many men just don't seem to care about whether they are experiencing a delusion or not.
Fuz,
Good for you! A lot of people don't understand that the majority of people in the opposite sex are either incapable of relating to someone or innocuous but seriously incompatible with them. That means one has to be ready for a lot of searching.
Neil Strauss dated his lady for a long time but they broke up a couple of years ago. Still, for a Hollywood couple, that's an eternity. Neil now sort of disassociates himself from the PUA community, even as he sells materials for pumping up your "inner game."
Brian,
"Further guys *do* notice when females order the most expensive thing on the menu (and even worse often eat 1/4 of it), the difference is that at this point you switch into "get some" mode (males tend to have three states - relationship, purchase you, and not interested)."
Yes! My girlfriend's roommate is a typical Cosmo girl, a whore for male attention who dresses and acts skimpy at bars and parties. She also demands to be purchased ("I won't date a guy who didn't pay for my dinner."). It seems to shock her, then, that the only guys she gets interest from are in the purchase-you mode where once they get their return on investment they split or cheat.
Despite household goods ads, men are not dumb. A guy who insists on paying for dinner (without a coupon) is as likely to be a guy who knows how to buy his way into your pants as much as the sweet, generous guy the girl wants to believe he is.
Brian's triad is spot on - women need to know how guys see the raunch act and the buy-me routine. Not only does it attract the guys who only want sex, it also modifies the behavior of guys who might be interested in dating to only be interested in sex. Men tend to live by the playground code - they only respect someone to the degree they respect themselves - and so raunch girls will always be on the do-ladder, not the date-ladder. Leykis 101 was invented for the buy-me girls, for guys who want to deal with their attitude at all.
If he just whipped it out and handed it to the waiter, that is not the best way to handle it. If he'd been smart, he would have slipped it casually, fairly discretely into the bill holder with his credit card. That way, if she sees and scoffs, he knows precisely what the deal is about her. I think this woman may have been upset by how brazen he was with it more than him using it.
An equivalent situation would be a woman inviting me to her house for dinner, telling me what great feast it would be. Upon arrival, the lights are set low, the wine is ready to be served, the table is set, the candles are lit, and she brings out...Hamburger Helper.
I don't on the first date, but do on others. Though actually now that I discovered Groupon I use that a lot, and I might do that on a first date, but I would say it upfront. My current girlfriend also uses coupons.
I think at this point it is one of those things you can use to test people, sure you don't want to give out too much information that no one wants to hear on the first date, but other things that become dealbreakers later might as well get out in the open: I use coupons, I am an atheist, I have a sister in jail (yes and someone dumped me because of that) so now I let people know right away. It makes it easier.
Mmmmmmm. I love Hamburger Helper!
Is she looking for a boyfriend/husband/lover or just some sex starved fool to pay her bills?
What a skank?!!
larry
Unfortunately, Pogo is correct that the guy's chance of a second date is considerably lessened if he uses a coupon on the first date.
I date frequently and I've found that slender, attractive women have lots of tests they use to weed out guys on dates. Several weeks ago I was out with a woman and the subject of these tests came up. I asked her whether she had any tests. She said she had been out with a man and asked him what kind of Chinese food he liked. He failed her test by responding that he liked almond chicken. She insisted that her dates be culinarily adventurous and almond chicken didn't cut it for her. Incidentally, I passed this test, as well as several others she had, but ultimately failed one of her other tests.
Interesting thought on tests - in fact I think guys should do the same. After reading through this post/thread, I think using a coupon on a date might be a handy test to weed out women with princess complexes.
As for the almond-chicken test: if I passed that test (and was aware of it), I'm not at all sure that she would get a second date out of me. A woman with a test like that is a FLAKE.
To the coupon clipping gentleman who initiated this whole discussion:
"I salute you sir! You very quickly and efficiently separated the wheat from the Chaff. Now you don't have to waste time (or money) on further evaluation of this woman. She would be a miserable partner in the long run."
Back when I was teaching, there was this older man, in his fifties, divorced, who came up to me very excited because he had been on his first date in years.
Oh, really, where did you go? What did you do?
"Well, I brought her roses, took her to Red Lobster, and then we went to a nightclub and danced!"
Big mistake, I told him.
"Mistake? Why is that a mistake? She said she had a good time."
It's a mistake because you shot your whole wad on the first date. Now what are you going to do to top that on the second date?
He had no answer to that question. I told him, hey, you can buy me dinner and drinks and take me to a nightclub, and I won't sleep with you either.
This is what people no longer understand. A date is a specific place, at a specific time, for a specific activity of limited duration. Nothing more. It's not about impressing anyone. It's about getting to know someone.
How much am I willing to spend on a first date? $5, maybe $10. A cup of coffee, maybe a pastry or two. The point is to sit down and talk.
I can find out everything I need to know about her in one twenty minute conversation. Whether she's a woman, who is actually attracted to me, or whether she's just another stupid, spoiled, conceited little girl, who is playing some game. If the former, she warrants a second date. If the latter, she didn't cost me much.
The thing about romance is this. You have to build it. Start totally casual and let it become increasingly more intimate. That is what a woman will respond to. A stupid, spoiled, conceited little girl, on the other hand, will not.
That's how you know whether she's worth investing time, money and attention on.
Back to Dr. Helen's original question: What would I, as a guy, see as questionable in a woman on the first date?
First let me disclose that I am married and have been for nearly 11 years. So, my dating skills are a bit rusty and I hope that they continue to rust away.
A woman who is too quick to show affection, either physical or emotional is a huge red flag. I do not care how awesome I am, women should be more circumspect and pace their emotional response. While we may both be love stricken at first sight (and I certainly was with my wife), being able to control ourselves, and particularly our response to our emotions, shows maturity and intelligence. Otherwise, I assume that she is ruled by her emotions and that will only lead to her finding another man when the initial rush fades out or become very clingy, leaning on her man for emotional fulfillment.
As for appearance, if she looks like she took an hour to get ready and she has to visit the "powder room" more than once on the date, then I have to wonder if she will be high maintenance. Sure, she could be just concerned with impressing me with her looks, but I can not tell the difference (and/or see previous paragraph).
The best dating advice I have for women is this: Talk a little about you, talk a little about me, talk a lot about subjects outside of you and/or me (often more revealing about the person anyway), be yourself, be as casual as the situation permits (obviously, don't wear a jeans to a $25+/plate restaurant and conversely don't wear that little black dress for just a cup of coffee), be willing to accept chivalry regardless of your feminist feelings, and leave us wanting more.
whatever it takes to pop a girls bubble.
i like the "putting half the money on the table" trick.
that seperates the women from the hair-and-nails girls.
but on the other hand jg, i don`t think you are able to tell the difference, no matter the strategy.
calling a man who finds a decent woman deluded says that you have no faith in your own perceptions regarding women and would rather just lump them all in together and get with a bunch of blokes who agree with your a priori assessment of all women.
do you buy hookers?
and would i dump a woman for using a coupon?
probably not.
i would dump her if she lied or if she cheated or if she stole or if she was mean to children or animals... if she wanted to keep old boyfreinds on facebook...or expected a week-end in vegas with the girls...or farted at the table like a college jock.
a coupon makes great sense to me.
we got our oil changed for $20 the other day.
coupon.
we use coupons at the grocery store, the gas station, the sporting good store....and we don`t go to restaurants so much because i cook and enjoy us all eating around the dining-room table at home as much as possible...and unless we go somewhere really nice, i serve far better meals here.
though, when my girlfreind`s daughter is home from college she gives me attitude and wants something from a restaurant...but we all know what she is.
But when it came time to pay, he pulled out a coupon. I'm hardly a princess, but that totally killed it for me.
I'm sure it's already been said (I'm not going to read 89 comments to find out if it has been), but on the off-chance that it hasn't, here it is: she's simply selling her vagina at the highest price she can get for it. In other words, she's a hooker (and so are the rest of you women who are also turned off because a guy won't spend what you want him to spend for access to your vagina (why else would a guy who is essentially a stranger to you spend any money on you?)).
After reading this article, I'd recommend always paying for the first date with a coupon as a great tactic for guys to weed out undesirable females. It's obviously very effective.
I can't believe the shallow frivolity of the woman who wrote the letter.
If she had any sense, she'd recognize the coupon using as a sign of fiscal responsibility. He obviously isn't a 'cheapskate' since he's taking you out to dinner.
The fact he's willing to flash coupons on the first date shows he's confident in himself and isn't willing to harm himself just to meet the (rather absurd) societal conventions expected by a small out of touch clique.
This sounds to me like she was shocked to see the man cared about expenditures and, since she clearly just wanted the guy for his money, didn't welcome any notion that spending would be restrained.
Must say I'm on board with Topher here. He's offered sound advice that both younger men and women should heed.
What turns me off?
Not being able to keep up a ranging conversation. That's my number one priority. The manner in which she treats people and whether she sees "due" is next.
They're probably pretty equal though.
dr.alistair --
"...or farted at the table like a college jock."
Actually, that's somewhat of a plus for me. Confidant and won't blame my dog if she's at my house.
olig....touche, though i don`t own a dog....
An equivalent situation would be a woman inviting me to her house for dinner, telling me what great feast it would be. Upon arrival, the lights are set low, the wine is ready to be served, the table is set, the candles are lit, and she brings out...Hamburger Helper.
That's not the same at all. An equivalent situation would be you going to the house, and instead of Hamburger Helper, it is every bit the delightful culinary experience you were promised. But, before you take a bite, you look her in the eye and say "You didn't buy any of these ingredients on SALE did you? What? You did? I'm OUTTA here!"
It never ceases to amaze me just how superficial people (not just women) will be when dating. No, I'd never use a coupon on a first date, but that's only one of a thousand minor, trivial, and often ridiculous things I have to walk on eggshells to avoid. Are jeans "too" relaxed or are slacked "too" dressy? Can I wear a hat? Should I shave? Keep it a little scruffy? Keep the goat? Do I give them all my attention or can I demonstrate social warmth towards others like the waiters? Will pulling out the chair demonstrate I'm a gentleman or trapped by outdated customs? And if I dared asked to go "dutch" (what my mother called "sharing") would it throw me out of the running right then and there (even though it sometimes is, at least in my case, a sign that I value equality between the sexes as more than just intellectual banter over the $30 bottle of wine I've paid for--again).
I'm disappointed that we're willing to judge people so much over so little. Have we all grown psychic antenna arrays out our skulls? Not sure I have so don't much respect it when women assume they know me after sitting down for one meal.
Quick question: how many guys out there are single, in their thirties, and have literally spent $10k (or more) on taking women out to dinner, the movies, a play, the beach, a trip, etc., etc., etc. only to get tossed out on a technicality? I'm not talking about guys who are looking for a physical play mate, I'm talking about those of us who have been looking for something long term resulting in marriage and family. Isn't it time women realized spotting a nice guy has NOTHING to do with their pants, whether or not they pay cash or use a debit card or coupon, or any of these other irrelevant "indicators" of a man's worth as a partner. If women were really looking for someone they could trust, be close to, rely on, etc., then it just seems they'd be looking for something a wee bit deeper, n'est pas?
...just realized I wanted to note what turns me off when I meet someone (male or female, potential partner or otherwise):
Nagging, criticism, judgment, assumption, poor communication skills, arrogance, sexism, racism, all those other isms, and double standards.
How they pay for a meal--yeah Gods, have we grown so ungrateful that we've forgotten to say, "Thank you"???
Perspective!
Coupon Clippers are Psychos;
How good are you at picking the Psycho? Take the free Psycho Quiz below to see how you can do;
http://datingpsychos.com/quiz.html
Click Here to Take The Psychos Quiz
Pat
http://www.datingpsychos.com
The coupon is indeed a turnoff. It shows a lack of finesse and indeed, possible cheapness. This is acceptable in a friend. In a romantic setting? Forget it. And lest you take this woman to task to much for mentioning it, money counts just like other "superficial" things (good figure, nice complexion, and, to the few men who brought it up, putting out in return for being wined and dined).
Women don't tend to come by money without working really hard for it. The dinner sounds like it's beyond his means, and the fact that it makes her uncomfortable that he may be struggling financially to pay for it isn't being superficial on her part. It's a legitimate concern and also probably made her feel guilty. Frankly, it would make me feel really uncomfortable. Not a good way to start out a date. The guy definitely could have handled it differently. But if the woman he's wooing isn't on his level financially, it's not going to work. Unless he's really really special.
There's a lot of talk here about romance. But tell me, how do you have romance on a first date when you don't even know the person? Is it supposed to be those magical chemicals again?
Quick question: how many guys out there are single, in their thirties, and have literally spent $10k (or more) on taking women out to dinner, the movies, a play, the beach, a trip, etc., etc., etc.
I think I spent no more then a few hundred on my last time dating(about 4 weeks). I def have an eye toward frugality.
Oligonicella :
Not being able to keep up a ranging conversation. That's my number one priority.
OH yeah because if a guy can't go on about your womyn studies bs that's a deal-breaker.
If a woman isn't interested, you should know in the first five minutes. You can always tell if someone likes you or not fairly quickly.
PS: I always offer to pay for myself on dates. This always produces awkward moments and few men accept the offer.
Oh I'd always immediately accept a woman who wanted to pay for her meal. If she's willing to pay, that must mean she makes money and isn't just whoring herself. Huge PLUS!
Vickery sez: "But if the woman he's wooing isn't on his level financially, it's not going to work."
-----
The joke is that "on his level financially" doesn't mean on his same - equal - level.
It means the level of man that she wants to get to pay for her, and the level that *she* is on financially doesn't have much to do with it. A 26-year-old woman working as a cashier at WalMart will laught at the 24-year-old loser man who is only an assistant manager.
The chronically unemployed chick may reject a guy who has had a steady job - and who is moving up - because other, richer guys may ask her out.
Or something like that. That's how life works.
The types of women in Vickery's thoughts are selling the Holy Vagina.
And it is downright depressing to read comments from several men here indicating that they are more than willing to pay and pay and pay for it. In the worst form, it involves working your butt off while she sits at home watching Oprah. And the men are elbowing themselves out of the way to brag about their sit-at-home.
Unreal.
It shows a lack of finesse and indeed, possible cheapness.
Translated: it shows he's not going to treat her like an expensive (or inexpensive, as the case may be) hooker.
money counts just like other "superficial" things (good figure, nice complexion, and, to the few men who brought it up, putting out in return for being wined and dined).
Translated: money counts to a good number of women because they're hookers. A woman who won't date a man because he appears poor or is poor is a hooker. Plain and simple.
Women don't tend to come by money without working really hard for it.
Translated: I believe men just trip over their feet into money.
The dinner sounds like it's beyond his means, and the fact that it makes her uncomfortable that he may be struggling financially to pay for it isn't being superficial on her part. It's a legitimate concern and also probably made her feel guilty.
Translated: She wants pay for play and was pissed that he wasn't going to or couldn't pay. Re-translated: she's a hooker who was pissed about getting less from this guy than she could get from another John.
Frankly, it would make me feel really uncomfortable.
Translated: you, too, are a hooker.
The guy definitely could have handled it differently.
Translated: you think he should have spent money on that hooker.
But if the woman he's wooing isn't on his level financially, it's not going to work. Unless he's really really special.
Translated: that woman, like you and so many other women, is a hooker.
Oh, and for reference:
Main Entry: 1hook·er
Pronunciation: \ˈhu̇-kər\
Function: noun
Date: 1567
1 : one that hooks
Main Entry: 2hook
Function: verb
Date: 13th century
intransitive verb
3 : to work as a prostitute
Main Entry: 3prostitute
Function: noun
Date: 1613
1 a : a woman who engages in promiscuous sexual intercourse especially for money : whore
Dating has been defined by women as an outing with a partner where there is the distinct possibility of sex. When women make arrangements to socialize with a man and others question her about said arrangements and refer to it as a date, it is women who adamantly declare that said arrangements are not a date if they have no intentions of having sex with that man. When there is the possibility of sex, women have no problem admitting that the arrangements are a date.
So, when a woman goes out on a date and bails on the date because the man appears, to her at least, to be cheap or incapable of financing her demands, she is clearly identifying herself as a hooker.
"Women don't tend to come by money without working really hard for it."
Are you suggesting that's not true for men?
"Are you suggesting that's not true for men?"
--
A lot of women think that money just falls into the lap of men.
The joke is: Because it falls into the lap of women - men buy them stuff.
So they naturally think that men come by their money the same way, and when they only focus on men who have more money than them (the men who have less are "losers") ... it's a natural conclusion.
I'll tell ya' ...
Women are supposed to be the gender with empathy. They want to help. They are caring.
But out in public, I see men helping women. Over and over and over again. Men helping women with baby buggies up the stairs. Men pushing women out of snowdrifts in their cars. Men intervening when women are being attacked. Men stopping to help change a flat tire. Men lifting suitcases in the airplane. Men lifting suitcases in a bus. Men opening doors for women.
Now some of the stuff above involves technical knowledge or greater strength. But a lot doesn't - I've had LittleMissAllThat (TM) let the door slam in my face when I am behind her, and she could have just held it open a second longer. They don't care one bit.
But further: There are people like Vickery and a WHOLE lot of women I hear who have no understanding *whatsoever* as to what the lives of men are really like. Mostly, I see women who WANT, WANT, WANT, Gimmee, Gimmee, Gimmee, and then they want to brag, brag, brag about all the material stuff they have. Paid for or produced by men.
That's not showing more empathy.
I want to draw attention to something the freeloader said:
"there was a definite spark...but that totally killed it for me."
See, there's a fork in the road for a guy dating a woman, and you take the fork very early on.
Path one: you are a really hot, tall, sweet-talking and/or socially dominant guy. You can do basically whatever you want, and any exhibitions of rudeness or rage will actually serve to further turn your woman on. Cf. the thousands of women who date total assholes, abusers and other pieces of trash, yet remain entranced by them and clueless or negligent of the damage.
Path two: you are _not_ a super-hot guy who makes her tingle downstairs. Proceed immediately to The Checklist. You will now be tested against hundreds of petty criteria, and any failure will result in you getting booted from eligibility.
Clearly this guy didn't pass the first test, and will now be subjected to many others to ascertain how much of a beta-male milch cow he can be turned into. It couldn't have been much of a "spark" if it was counterbalanced by a coupon.
If you haven't seen a "romantic comedy" movie in a decade and think I'm joking about the list, read this:
http://www.nomarriage.com/perfectguy.html
BTW, to answer Helen's question, the female equivalent of the instant-turnoff tic that this little girl thinks the coupon is would be a woman who revealed she reads Cosmo. I don't date Cosmo readers, the magazine screams insecurity and benign misandrism, or worse.
Topher, sometimes people play multiple roles.
In college, I had lots of sex. I'm big and played on sports teams.
In my '30s, I struggled. Women treated me like crap because I had way less money than average.
In my '40s, I suddenly had way more money than average, in fact way way more, due to career success (finally) and inheritance and the success of a business, and all of a sudden women are coming out of the woodwork again.
I'm the same person. But it really made me see - maybe unlike other men here - how dependent romantic success can be on money.
I personally find that a bit sickening. But I have seen it close up. Women even read Web sites about where unmarried men with money live. And then they have "accidental" meetings at the corner store or wherever. I learned that.
JG - cut the crap. So some women looked up something on a website. Stop generalizing. Jesus Christos!
Alex - I was giving an example.
The generalization is what I have seen.
But I'm glad to see a Real Man chivalrously protecting womanhood.
We hardly ever see that.
I have seen so many Real Men - who support sit-at-home housepigs - in my life who have gotten blindsided by the Family Law System that I can't even see it or hear it anymore. And I certainly don't want to listen to it from a pre-family-court person.
I know this is completely off-topic, but I think it's definitely something that Helen and regular readers of this blog will appreciated. A woman who falsely-accused a man of rape, sending him to prison for 4 years, was sentenced today to 1-to-3 years in prison for perjury.
While the fact that she was only sentenced to 1-to-3 years in prison for ruining this guy's life is certainly nothing to rejoice about in the grand scheme of things (she should spend as many years in jail as the man she falsely-accused of was sentenced to), it's certainly a huge step in the right direction.
Dr Helen's question was, basically, whether men too apply tests? This may be a distinction without a difference, but I would say I didn't set tests and dig pits, but I was always on the alert for information she offered, and that could very well cause my thumb to seek the red button, press "eject," blow the canopy, and float gently to earth, elsewhere. Very elsewhere.
Here is an instance. She invites me to dinner, and I order something midrange (as does she). She says, "Well! If you're going to order something that expensive, I certainly hope you're going to take care of the tip."
"Would you prefer me to take care of the dinner?" Enquired with some coldness.
"Oh, heavens no! It was a joke! I was just making a joke!"
This said nothing to me about hooking or cheapness, but spoke reams about passive-aggressiveness.
Another. We go to an elegant bar, and she is turned away for jeans, which are not allowed on women there. We zoom down 90 - 100 floors to a ritzy basement shop, where she tries on many sleek pairs of slacks, settles on a pair, and buys them.
Her card is rejected: maxed.
"I don't understand! How could it be maxed? It was just last month my father paid it off! How could it be maxed? O well, here's another card."
That one worked and we had our drink together. And in fact, I enjoyed her company very much. But that fail, unlike the first, was about money. I had known too many men with spouses like that. It's a heartache of a brass-ring life, perpetually trying to earn enough to stay even, and each year having her spend 10% more than you make.
It's a heartache of a brass-ring life, perpetually trying to earn enough to stay even, and each year having her spend 10% more than you make.
Bullshit. It's your choice.
J Bowen -
Yes, a cause for minor celebration. It's getting to the point where almost no rape accusation can be believed on its face, because the accusers would face zero repercussions if it turned out they were lying. This might be a step in changing that.
"Would you prefer me to take care of the dinner?" Enquired with some coldness.
"Oh, heavens no! It was a joke! I was just making a joke!"
This said nothing to me about hooking or cheapness, but spoke reams about passive-aggressiveness.
-> Ever called a woman on it?
"Would you prefer me to take care of the dinner?" Enquired with some coldness.
"Oh, heavens no! It was a joke! I was just making a joke!"
This said nothing to me about hooking or cheapness, but spoke reams about passive-aggressiveness.
-> Ever called a woman on it?
Aslynn wrote:
"-> Ever called a woman on it?"
Well, I've called people of both genders on it. Generally it serves as an opportunity for continued denial. "Gosh, if you can't take a joke..." yhat kind of thing. Rarely, higher denial: "What makes you think you have insight into my motives?"
To sum up, in my experience calling them has never been very productive. Your experience?
The whole point of being passive aggressive is to punish and control without it being apparent or admitting what you are doing. So calling one out on passive aggressive behavior is a waste of time. It will always be a joke, or you will always be too sensitive. Both men and women can be passive aggressives.
Calling all women whores and hookers?
Dude: that one's been around for centuries. If you really want to impress Miss Right with what a great guy you are, you're going to have to come up with something better than that. After all, what if she doesn't like your taste in movies? How will you insult her then? What if she actually IS a hooker--and doesn't find you to be her cup of tea? Then what? Shoot her?
Sounds to me like you actually like sitting home in front of your computer, angry. But if what you really want is a woman by your side—uh—you're going to have to contain that beast within and actually expose to her your gentle side. I know it's in there. Now let's see more of it!
If one labels all women whores and hookers it makes a great explanation for why there is lack of success with dating.
"Sounds to me like you actually like sitting home in front of your computer, angry."
This is the typical defensive response to any criticism of a woman.
"If you really want to impress Miss Right with what a great guy you are"
You are under the impression it's a man's job to "impress" a woman on a date. Expect a show, and you'll get one, from an actor. Some of us think dates are opportunities to screen compatibility and so we have less of a hang-up about being ourselves.
To paraphrase Groucho Marx, I'm not sure I'd want the company of any woman who thought I was a "what a great guy" after the first date.
I hope the woman didn't go out with the guy again, for his sake.
A woman using a coupon on a date wouldn't turn me off, especially if it was for a box of Trojans.
UNBELIEVABLE.
What a bunch of shallow magpies people have become!! Suppose the guy had picked her up in a brand new car, would she ask if he got the factory rebate or not, and hold it against him if he did? There's a word for people who pay more than they have to for something: idiots There's another term for those who overpay just to impress others: ostentatious idiots. The guy displayed wisdom and financial shrewdness in an economy where those are survival skills, and in no way detracted from the material benefit to her. He didn't take her to an inferior establishment, or limit her ordering options, or stiff the waiter on the tip - all of which might warrant some of her disdain. He simply leveraged the fact, evidenced by the publication of the coupon, that the restaurant really needed his business.
She's not thinking very long term - this is a guy who won't go into foreclosure buying stupid bling to impress the moron neighbors whom she can't stand anyway. This is a guy who will save up for her kids to go to college. If the coupon bothered her, that's an indicator that he OVERspent on this preening posing hussy. The smart advice would be to ask her to identify the guy so the columnist could advice him to run and never look back at this shallow harpy. Who needs a vacuous financial scorekeeper like this golddigging pig? Oh wait, that's right - she was asking for dating advice in Cosmo. She's not worth of a Happy Meal ar the drive thru.
In answer to your question, if a woman bought me dinner and used a coupon, I'd be impressed as all get out. I'd think, there's a woman whose spending habits won't drive me into an early grave, and I hope someday she'll use her financial talents to our joint benefit.
And people actually wonder why our country has a debt problem.
Alex --
"OH yeah because if a guy can't go on about your womyn studies bs that's a deal-breaker."
Since when is a conversation devoted to WS a ranging conversation? Kinda the antithesis. I was referring to politics, literature, science, religion, the evolution of languages, martial arts, art...
Things I find let you judge the depth of the other's intellect.
And, by the way, I can go on about woman's studies. It's just that I won't share the view of those who see it as a major. Another way to ferret out the undesirable... can they stand someone with an opposite or alternate viewpoint?
Oh Topher you old softy! I love it when you get all churlish and pouty like that!
If you really want to impress Miss Right with what a great guy you are, you're going to have to come up with something better than that.
If your definition of "Miss Right" is the average hooker posing as a woman who's interested in a guy for who he is rather than for his money, then I'm not at all interested in impressing "Miss Right". She can sell access to her vagina to someone who likes to pay for access to vaginas.
What if she actually IS a hooker--and doesn't find you to be her cup of tea? Then what? Shoot her?
Why would I shoot someone who was honest enough to admit that she was a hooker? I have infinitely more respect for a hooker who advertises herself as such than for a woman who claims to be interested in me for who I am but is actually interested in me for how much money I have (isn't it always women who are complaining about guys looking at them as sex objects instead of seeing their "inner beauty"?). Hookers who advertise themselves as such are at least honest with the guys they're getting involved with; hookers posing as honest women aren't.
Sounds to me like you actually like sitting home in front of your computer, angry. But if what you really want is a woman by your side—uh—you're going to have to contain that beast within and actually expose to her your gentle side. I know it's in there. Now let's see more of it!
Actually, I've come to the conclusion, after many years of dating women who turned out to be hookers, that I would much rather live alone. Unlike what is probably most people (especially women), I like myself. I don't need someone to "complete me"; I'm complete all by myself. When I am in need of company, I simply spend time with my friends - who, as far as they've demonstrated, all like me for who I am. Not only do they not try to change me into something that I'm not, they all pretty much like doing the same things that I do (that's why they're my friends).
If one labels all women whores and hookers it makes a great explanation for why there is lack of success with dating.
The only reason why so many of my relationships failed (well, technically, all but one (the current one) have failed) is because I had the wrong goals. I tried to make the relationships with those women into something they could never be because the women themselves were hookers (had I known that in the first place I would have never dated them (of course, because those women didn't advertise themselves as hookers in the way that a typical hooker generally advertises herself, the only way I could really know whether they were or were not hookers was to date them)). I was essentially trying to take the jungle out of a tiger. My goal should have never been to form a lasting relationship but rather just to use them as the sexual objects they've made themselves out to be and get rid of them once they tried to get out of me what I didn't want to give them.
Of course, now I don't have that problem. Now, I just assume that all women who I meet are hookers (women want to be treated like hookers so that's exactly what I'm doing); that saves me the trouble of having to waste valuable time and resources trying to figure out if they are or aren't hookers. Those that want more than what I am willing to give them find out pretty quickly that I'm not willing to give them what they want and are free to make their own decisions about whether they want to continue dating me or not.
"To sum up, in my experience calling them has never been very productive. Your experience?"
It was a rhetorical question, of course, however it does relate to the issue of what constitutes a character trait worth attention (a potential mate's ability to discuss financial issues implies a level of emotional maturity) and one that is not (whether or not someone uses a coupon which could mean any number of things). If going out to dinner can be likened to a miniature experiment of one's future with a partner then it follows, at least for me, that a passive-aggressive reaction to the discussion of money issues is a clue that they don't have a healthy relationship with money. It does not indicate whether a person is thrifty or maxed out on their credit cards (I've tended to use coupons more, for instance, when I'm more heavily in debt), but is that all that important when the reality is one's relationship to money is drastically different between singles having dinner than it is between a committed couple living together and sharing a bank account? A healthy marriage relies on the ability of both partners to maturely discuss their finances and agree upon a budget. Someone who is passive-aggressive around money generally cannot accomplish this goal, however obvious it appears on the surface. In regard to your specific example, I'd surmise that the person described not only has issues surrounding money, but also an expectation for you to take care of them (at their whim, of course) without properly articulating that requirement. This type of implied expectation, in my experience, can and does lead to problems in a relationship and worse the behavior usually extends to other areas: punctuality, time commitments, choice of a car, a home, etc.
Thank you for your example, it is the perfect instance of a "red flag" that I look for, one deeper and more meaningful (and respectful) than how an individual decides to spend their own hard earned money on another human being who, if they were taught any manners as a kid, would have been gracious over the free meal.
Which leads to the next question: How many men out there are treated to meals, movies, plays, trips to the beach, etc., by someone they've just started dating. Anyone? Anyone?
Equality between the sexes must, if it to mean anything, be expressed in action, not just words.
"But when it came time to pay, he pulled out a coupon. I'm hardly a princess..."
No, dearie. I'd say you're quite the princess. "He's treating me to dinner, but he's saving money while doing it! Hmmph! When I go out with a guy, I want it to HURT him in the wallet! SEEYA!"
Yes. "SEEYA," indeed.
Aslynn:
"Which leads to the next question: How many men out there are treated to meals, movies, plays, trips to the beach, etc., by someone they've just started dating. Anyone? Anyone?"
This happened occasionally when I was dating. Sometimes, rather tactlessly:
"So. Are you seeing anyone?"
"So. Are you doing anything Friday night?"
I ascribed this to inexperience. However it was managed, whatever my first-glance impression of the woman, I always said "yes," and always went. If this is behavior that should be encouraged -- directness and social courage from women seem to me very important -- then it ought to be reinforced.
Incidentally (perhaps I reveal my generation) time brings many changes to the relations between the sexes. It's very interesting to see a woman in her 50s - 60s, long past whatever sex-kitten indulgences she may once have evoked, go all flint-eyed and say, "I'm not letting some ... man ... get at my money."
Are you kidding me? A guy who knows how to keep as much of his hard-earned money as he can? I'm fine with that. I don't know, though. I haven't dated in 12 years. I use my fair share of coupons trying to make our average income stretch to support 6 of us, so I'm a little biased. Nothing wrong with being frugal!
Cham wrote, "It's work, trust me."
I do, of course, and it doesn't surprise me. That's real life, not TV. On TV, Lionel would tell Alistair that he wouldn't do anything except maybe signing and speaking and that Jean was absolutely not to get roped into any work. Alistair would provide someone else to take care of things. All that may or may not have actually been in the episode, but it would fit in with Lionel's character.
'S'matter Alex? Figure out your mistake?
Alex,
I am with Oligo - not where you got the idea that Oligo wanted to talk about the patriarchy.
This reminds me, though, of another answer to Helen's question. An instant date turnoff is a girl trying to talk to me about "chick stuff" - I don't care about where you bought your shoes, the brand of your purse, or what's on Oprah, and if you ask "do you watch Sex and the City?" the date is over.
The trouble is that instead of screening for compatibility, we're still taught to play out some kind of debutante game. Men are taught they are supposed to make all the active moves, picking the woman, asking her out, making plans, picking her up, paying for everything, and otherwise attending to her experience. His goal is that after he drops her off, she should call her friends all a-twitter about Mr Charming she just met.
Women are taught they should expect to do most of the talking, that they should make a token effort to help pay but not really expect to pay, that the man has to exhibit all manner of self-effacing behaviors like opening doors and not verbally getting down if the waiter screws up the order, and otherwise be the receiver without any real responsibilities.
Most importantly, women are taught to believe all of the fantastic notions they want to believe about their date - notions that will invariably be flashed away by the innocuous imperfections everyone has.
Essentially, people are taught that dating is about perpetuating a fantasy as long as they can, a hormonal euphoria that dissipates when you realize that this person has body hair, bad habits, has made enemies, uses coupons...
So the freeloader is pissed about the coupon as much as she is pissed that he interrupted her fragile fantasy that he was Mr Right.
Aslynn's point is also sage - people who are uncomfortable talking about money are probably going to be financially wacked out.
Topher,
Yes, men are expected to do all of that because it is basically a tryout for marriage.
If you pay enough and impress her enough and elbow the other men out of the way for her ... and then pay some more ... then you get the BIG PRIZE:
You get to pay for her - and even be legally responsible for paying for her, enforceable in court - for the rest of her life while she watches Oprah and bitches up a storm.
And gets fatter and stupider and wrinklier by the day, so that in 20 years you have forgotten exactly why the HELL you entered into this lop-sided agreement with her.
That's how it works. And men seem to be lining up to play the game.
I checked out of that game long ago. But watch men - not just young men, but mostly young men and some stupid old men who haven't learned - and that's the game they all play.
No wonder women are users. I would be too if the pickins' were so easy. And still, there are men even on Web sites like this one who admonish other men to be "Real Men" (meaning: play the game above). Sickening, sickening.
And once you look at women through the lens of the ideas I presented above, you won't think much of them. You certainly won't be putting them up on a pedestal, like most men do.
My wife recently did a paper on narcissism personality disorders and one of the signs was projection whereby they were so caught up in themselves that they pushed their own negative traits onto others (it's also one heck of a good defense mechanism to boot!)
That leads us to the charge of "cheapskate". Someone who views men as a meal ticket is hardly in a position to make such an accusation and this reveals the person's tendency to see the other person as an object to please them. For example, note how she emphasized what _she_ was feeling. She simply didn't even bother mentioning whether he was turned on by her or not or what she had contributed to the relationship.
As others have pointed out, coupons are a sign of THRIFTYNESS. "Cheapskates" either mooch off of others outright OR they give as little as possible or even cheat (such as "offer" to pay but be insincere about it, etc.
Insecure men out to impress women may not be "cheapskates" by such women's standards of men but often they are irresponsible and later the women complain about how men are "liars."
In any case, feminism has shown that it's a failure and that equality was just about hobby jobs for women at a huge cost to society to pick up the mess. Men have a lot more to fear from such women who will complain later the guy's a "bum" (he doesn't double his income yearly to buy her more stuff) or a "pig" (doesn't clean up the house after he gets done with his 12 hour workday) and will then demand alimony and "child" support and still bash him. Which is another sign of a narcissist: Their continual ability to find flaws in others.
Gentlemen, hear the following terms and run as far as you can: "Be a MAN!" "Man up!" "Cheapskate!" "Asker pays!" "Equal rights!" (Note: Equal means all goodies for her) You get the drift.
Polish Knight,
You hit the nail on the head. Having just spent two years with a woman who I later discovered had BPD what you describes is absolutely familiar. Projection was her specialty. It was actually quite fascinating that she did so in ways I'd never seen anyone else ever do; for example she would project other people's perceptions and feelings onto me, not just her own! I'm just learning about it by reading a book called Stop Walking on Eggshells, which I'm sure your wife is well aware of. Would she be willing to share her paper with an interested party? I'd very much like to read it and hear her conclusions. If she's open to that you (or she) can contact me directly by going to my blog: http://greenpygmies.blogspot.com/ Thanks mate!
Aslynn
The stuff that women worry about it amazing! Why is it that men can get through their days, and their lives, without getting out a microscope and analyzing every little thing that people do? And don't give me any of the evo psych BS either, b/c women do this with each other too, maybe even more so. ... "My BFF told me that her freind, who I only invited to my party b/c she was her friend, told her that my chile wasn't homemade! So I went on to Facebook and posted my recipe on her page and then she said that I said that she said that I said..."
Who cares if the guy paid with a coupon? What friggin difference did it make? You got your free meal, didn't you, you freeloading, judemental, golddigging, superficial, ignorant, stupid bimbo! Just be grateful and STFU!
I think the woman did the right thing by dumping this guy who used a coupon. She did him a favor when you think about it because now, he will waste no more time or money on her and will be able to devote his time and resources to securing a decent woman.
Special thanks to the "guy guru" and Cosmo for weeding out the useless women from our lives.
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