Thursday, January 21, 2010

35 Comments:

Blogger Topher said...

"I dunno about you, for right now I’m enjoying the triumph of that long disrespected, much battered bum … the workaday, come-home-at-night, walk-the-dogs, take-out-the-trash suburban dad. Sometimes embarrassing the kids is about as much fun as you get."

12:54 PM, January 21, 2010  
Blogger Helen said...

Topher,

I noticed those lines too. Maybe dads will make a comeback and people will quit treating them with contempt.

12:58 PM, January 21, 2010  
Blogger TMink said...

I am much more interested in how he votes than who he is. I do not despise Barney Frank because he is a lisping homosexual, I despise him because he is a lying politician who is dangerous for and detrimental to America.

Same with Brown, I just want him to vote like the center right guy he says he is.

Trey

1:53 PM, January 21, 2010  
Blogger DADvocate said...

I enjoy embarrassing my kids on occasion. You gotta be careful not to over do it. My son usuallly drives the truck, though.

BTW - Obama's derogatory comments about Brown driving a truck rank up there with his clinging to guns and religion comments. He's hopelessly out of touch with the typical American. Several people where I work drive trucks. Most are college educated professionals. Some with 6 figure incomes and are company vice presidents.

I have a quad cab pickup because, for me, it is the ultimate vehicle. I can fit the entire family in it and take along whatever luggage, camping, hunting, fishing equipment we need, plus haul the lawn mower or tiller to the shop for repair, etc.

I wonder if Obama and his ilk will ever realize their elitist snobbery won't carry them forever since most of us despise elitism and snobs.

3:31 PM, January 21, 2010  
Blogger Topher said...

"I enjoy embarrassing my kids on occasion. You gotta be careful not to over do it. My son usuallly drives the truck, though."

There's two sides. The Brown style is to shovel a little embarrassment to the kids to show you are the alpha-dog and they are still the kids. The other side is if you are a hopelessly unhip geek that makes your kids look uncool by association. Although the only thing more embarrassing to a teenager than an unhip parent is a hipster parent.

BTW, I don't think it was a gaffe at all - he was clearly in control of the speech, and took the opportunity to leverage the celebrity and shift attention to his daughters. Then he extended the humor by pretending to backtrack, then getting a final crack in with "but Ayla is!" Everyone needs to settle down.

3:48 PM, January 21, 2010  
Blogger Topher said...

I think I am overreacting, but I heard something on the radio this morning that got me riled up.

A radio show had a giveaway, and they asked the winning caller if she was at work.

She said "I'm a stay at home mom, so I'm at work 24/7."

I don't deny that parenting is a full-time job, but I wanted to ask her if she would say her husband was "at work 24/7." After all, if he's not at work, he's at home with the kids parenting, and that's another job, right?

I would bet big money that at least once in her children's lives, she'll proffer the following in a fight with her husband: "YOU don't understand, I take care of the KIDS all day while you just SIT ON YOUR ASS at WORK!"

Related: It has been advised by some that a man never allow his wife to leave the workforce, lest she possibly become a ward of the marriage (even after the marriage is over). the wife-work situation creates a couple of problems for married men. First, if he allows his wife to not work (or to backtrack on returning to work after childbirth), she can use that against him in the alimony argument, claiming she has no ability to earn income (as if he had forcefully sequestered her in the house for years).

Secondly, the mother can form an emotional bond not with the kids but with the act of childrearing, a bond that becomes a 24/7 entitlement. In this way, a man who takes it upon himself to supply the family's financial needs can be subtly (or forcefully) denied his role as a parent during the hours he is at home.

Thirdly, on the other side it's not a good idea to get hooked on a lifestyle that requires two incomes if you can get by OK with one, so having two workers in the household can addict the family to a standard of living that quickly goes wanting when someone gets laid off.

8:24 PM, January 21, 2010  
Blogger aa said...

很好啊..................................................

11:48 PM, January 21, 2010  
Blogger fred said...

Fred's favorite find: in a number of paces I noted Brown for President. Odd. He has yet to take his seat in the Senate. And yet the conservatives said Obama, with but two years in the Senate did not have sufficient experience to be president.
I consider myself something of a populist, but I do like elitists. After all, how many of them enough
put our nation together as founding fathers? "Elitists"often have, unlike so many others, college degrees, are lawyers, doctors, mangers, bank executives, and so forth.
A number of my elitist friends own both pickup trucks and Lexus or Mercedes.

3:00 AM, January 22, 2010  
Blogger Jose said...

I don't deny that parenting is a full-time job, but I wanted to ask her if she would say her husband was "at work 24/7." After all, if he's not at work, he's at home with the kids parenting, and that's another job, right?"*


Parenting is a full time job but if statistics are to be believed dads are not participating after work. I know my hubby comes home and plays Urban warfare until supper is don, by me, and then after that he moves to his computer for more leisure. IF statistics are to be believed this is the case with a lot of men. World of Warcraft and video games are the domain of 20-40 year old men and the average time spent playing is astounding. I mean they have to be playing before and afer work for the figures to be right.

And I can see how that would happen because before my hubby cut down on WoW he would play in the morning while I made his breakfast and packed his lunch.

I have to wonder what it will look like if dads do start to make a come back? Meaning the movement Topher is always talking about takes off. A very twisty situation that would be.

I would be forced back into the workforce and still have to do all the chores and teaching of the children I do now but also have to cover child care expenses for 7 children. I think a set up like that would lead to divorce, as it nearly did before I left the work force.


And then there is this:

"It has been advised by some that a man never allow his wife to leave the workforce, lest she possibly become a ward of the marriage (even after the marriage is over)."

A bit presumptive isn't it. As far as I am concerned the marriage is over when one of us is dead.


As for Brown. I can't vote for the man but I Hope he votes well.

7:47 AM, January 22, 2010  
Blogger Jose said...

And one more thing about the last statement. One word "allow". WTF am I chattel. Do I need his permission to drive or vote as well?

7:48 AM, January 22, 2010  
Blogger Topher said...

"And one more thing about the last statement. One word "allow". WTF am I chattel. Do I need his permission to drive or vote as well?"

Let's turn it around - if you have free will to work or not work, why is it OK for you to unilaterally decide that hubby should be the sole earner and that you could live off him? I understand if a spouse is disabled or otherwise unable to work, but why isn't it a _mutual decision_ who does how much workforce labor? What if hubby came home and said "I don't want to work anymore, why don't you provide for us?"

8:34 AM, January 22, 2010  
Blogger Topher said...

I don't want to sound snarky because it does sound like you are in a tough situation, but questions arise...such as, how did it get this way? I have a hard time believing he didn't learn how to fritter away time until video games came around. Or did his loafness develop late in the marriage?

At what point did you say "we're not having any more kids until you get serious about contributing to the parenting?" Or is yours a "blended family" with children from previous marriage?

Has he opened up about why he plays so much vids? Has your presentation simply been all about you and how he's a shirker or do you express concern with his well-being?

8:40 AM, January 22, 2010  
Blogger TMink said...

fred, I am with you on this one. Brown needs to be a Senator before anyone talks about him being President. Winning an Senate election does not qualify someone to be President. We see that too well at present.

Trey

10:15 AM, January 22, 2010  
Blogger TMink said...

Jose wrote: "I have to wonder what it will look like if dads do start to make a come back?"

Well, having no dad in the home is the best predictor of poverty, teenage pregnancy, and incarceration for boys. I cannot imagine that you are enamored of those problems Jose.

Trey

10:18 AM, January 22, 2010  
Blogger Jose said...

That is the thing Topher it was a mutual decision. We decided together that it was better or me to stay home instead of incurring the costs of daycare, extra cars and clothes and such. It costs us less and I was able to focus on house duties..

And FYI I did provide for both or us for nearly half a year. He had to be out of his office because the renovation was effecting his asthma and causing him to be in the hospital for several afternoons and one time a solid week. This was before telecommuting so he had to stay home, unpaid, until the renovation was done..

And where on earth do you get it that I am in a tough situation? I happen to love things the way they are now. Could things be better? Sure a little but after all these years together things are really starting to look golden.

Also my husband has been a gamer since pong. And an Anime fanatic. And he isn't a loaf. Sure he got carried away with online RPG's but he only goes online for major events with his friends now.. This is the guy who runs a D&D game with his 6 kids every week end. He hooks the puter up to the HDTV and puts the map right there on the screen so they can see it. They use swords to "attack the enemy" who is usually a teddy bear. When he had time off around Christmas one day he took the all to an indoor McD's playground and got them all lunch so I could wrap presents. When I was still not done on the 22nd he took them all to see the Princess and the Frog. All 6. And Tuesdays are 1 dollar popcorn and soda night.. Guess how he knows that.. And Every weekend he takes 3 of them to the library. 1 of the oldest one of the middle and one of the youngest. Alternating to the other kids the next weekend.

I, my dear soul, have a very loving husband, though it did take some effort to get here..

I was not arguing that he was a loaf.

You said and I quote "but I wanted to ask her if she would say her husband was "at work 24/7."

I was simply pointing out that it not always the case. After work my husband has leisure time. And truthfully I have a little as well just at other times.

I have an idea. Marry someone and stick to it for 16 years and then get back to me. You will find that the ideal of perfectly divided labor is unattainable and trade offs are more realistic.

For instance I choose to do all the home labor stuff and much of the child rearing and am more than happy that he takes the kiddos out to the movies and library. Is it a perfect division of labor? No, but for us it is the right one..

This is what we have come to after a decade and a half of taking up each others slack and filling in where the other lacks the skills.

I cannot imagine my husband or myself following any of your advice and honestly he would laugh at it.

Can I ask How old are you and how long is your longest long term relationship? I am just curious..

10:52 AM, January 22, 2010  
Blogger DADvocate said...

Brown needs to be a Senator before anyone talks about him being President.

I agree on this point.

fred - Most of the "elitists" in the 18th century had much more contact with "real" life than today's elitists. I remember reading stories of Thomas Jefferson cutting down trees with an axe as a young man. George Washington spent a lot of time in the military, which was much different that today's military. Etc, etc.

12:07 PM, January 22, 2010  
Blogger Jose said...

Tmink,

I am all for that. Hell when hubby and I got together we were married by a JP and didn't say the whole till death do us part/ in sickness and in health thing but we meant it. And we have made good on the belief that marriage meant something too.

He has seen me through 9 pregnancies now. 1 early miscarriage one 18 week loss and a baby on the way now and I have seen him through several surgeries some of which included sponge baths and wiping when and where necessary.. He has developed several health problems over the years.

Never have we even mentioned he D word. I honestly could never take my children's father from them no matter how angry I got or how hard things got. They deserve to have complete access to both of us every day for every minute they can.

Come what may we adults will deal with whatever we need to. The kiddos wouldn't deserve to be punished for our stupidity. The key is to not do anything stupid to start with..

1:47 PM, January 22, 2010  
Blogger Tether said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

1:49 PM, January 22, 2010  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

Jose -

"Parenting is a full time job but if statistics are to be believed dads are not participating after work."

Nope. Parenting is *not* a full time job. I raised my daughter myself. Did a hell of a lot of other things as well. Wouldn't have been possible if parenting is a full time job.

It's a cliche and unfortunately, one that a lot of bogus comparisons are based on.

Follow to the source of statistics. Bias is prevalent.

1:50 PM, January 22, 2010  
Blogger TMink said...

My wife and I are full time parents, but we go on dates and stay up later than the kids. Oh, then there are those hours when they go to school etc. So full time parents does not equal 24/7.

Trey

3:44 PM, January 22, 2010  
Blogger Professor Hale said...

Nope. Parenting is *not* a full time job.

I agree. Anyone remember being a kid? Did you really need your parents around all the time? I sure didn't.

3:46 PM, January 22, 2010  
Blogger Jose said...

Olig,

I can see what you are saying and P. Hale as well, but I think you mean a 24 hour a day job. . Yes my kiddos go outside to play and I am not right next to them. But the effort required to keep everything together is a constant thing. You don't take risks a childless person might, financial or otherwise.

It is a full time job even when you get breaks from actually having the child right there. My hubby can take the kids out and I am not with them but I am still usually doing things to make their lives run smoothly.

tmink,

I home school. The kids going to school and me having from 7 in the morning to 3:40 in the afternoon to myself do not happen. Except when the kids go out with their dad or I go out with my sister/whomever it really is 24/7.. I am with either 3 of them or all of them most of time..

4:09 PM, January 22, 2010  
Blogger Topher said...

"And where on earth do you get it that I am in a tough situation?"

Uh, I don't know, the half-post you spent in a sob story about how your husband is a gaming addict and won't help with the parenting like all those other awful husbands.

Then I try to express some sympathy for having the parenting dumped in your lap, and you switch horses and claim he's an awesome guy who just needs some downtime after work.

More power to both of you, but if that's the case, why don't you just say that the first time?

4:29 PM, January 22, 2010  
Blogger Tether said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

5:49 PM, January 22, 2010  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

Jose -

"Hale as well, but I think you mean a 24 hour a day job."

That's what is typically meant when that phrase is uttered in reference to keeping a household. It is an attempt to inflate the effort needed to be a stay at home spouse.

In any event, I did work a 40hr week job as well as raise my kid alone, you know. Not like I sat at home and had someone provide. It *still* wasn't a 40 hr week job as I did many, many things that required lots of time and always seemed to find space.

So, in conjunction with maintaining a household, it's a bogus statement with any nuance.

I think a lot of problems come from someone wanting everyone else to raise to their level of OCD or at least, to *enable* their level of OCD by doing half the work necessary to assuage their fixation with cleanliness.

In other words, mess it up a bit, heat up a pizza and don't friggin' work in the evening. Both of you can be tired and messes don't kill nearly as often as stresses.

11:36 PM, January 22, 2010  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

Oh...

"Messes don't kill nearly as often as stresses." ™

11:39 PM, January 22, 2010  
Blogger Topher said...

As long as we are on the topic, for humor's sake I recommend Slate's Emily Bazelon writing on "Family."

The uber-intellectual-feminist Bazelon has the misfortune of having two sons, and that and the fact they are children and not educated, metrosexual manginas causes her much consternation. A few weeks ago she challenged her son to a battle of wills concerning his interest in astronomy, telling him "the moon doesn't affect anyone on earth" and interrupting a family viewing of a moon landing program to read a marriage article in the NYT Magazine.

In this week's episode she laments that her son no longer wants to do a book swap for his birthday party, a tradition she invented to ward off "consumerism" in her children's lives.

http://www.slate.com/id/2242219/

Bazelon writes for the Double X blog, and you can guess what her take is - she wrote a bogus article about false rape accusation statistics when the Hofstra case went down, concluding that we really don't know, but that false accusations are nonetheless improbable and we should just trust the accusers.

Her family columns reflect an implicit devaluing of "boyness," a need to show off her social consciousness and a neurotic desire to program her children at every fork in the road with her values rather than letting them act their age.

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