Amy Alkon on sex, dating and hooking up
I interviewed advice columnist Amy Alkon on PJTV about sex, hooking up, and if women should put out for their husbands. Other topics of discussion include: are the techniques in The Pick-up Artist
really the best way to get a date--and why don't women like porn?
You can watch the show here.
really the best way to get a date--and why don't women like porn? You can watch the show here.
Labels: PJTV
posted by Helen at 4:22 AM
45 Comments:
I have to say I know quite a lot of women who like porn, to the extent that they send me things they enjoyed. This of course implies that they don't like most porn -- but then neither do I.
I do observe that these women are all under thirty.
gliderguider,
You know, I think a lot of women like porn too. The problem is, the ones who do not often try to make it as if porn is some kind of outrage to be controlled when it is just a preference for some, whether male or female.
I can't help but notice the two of you blame the "feminists" for turning men into kittens, but approve of the idea of the modern day hook-up as well as it being okay for women to pay for a date, which would also be a product of feminism. So is feminism the big evil or is it a positive?
Cham,
Sometimes it's both. As for men turning into "kittens"--not sure what that's about. The point of our discussion was that many times men have no clue how to behave or even ask for a date because so many of the rules have changed. I think feminism has it's place --in terms of equality between the sexes but when it comes to special privileges for women--count me out.
I found it amusing that Ms. Alkon used the term "romancetopia" (sp?) to describe women's view of an ideal relationship. You know what the latest trend in romance novels is these days? The vampire lover.
Now, think about that. By definition, a vampire is an irresistible seducer who feeds on his victim's blood and turns her into an undead slave. And this is the dominant idea of a modern woman's view of her relationship with a man?
Feminism destroyed romance. It did so by fundamentally altering the relationship between men and women from cooporation to competition, ruining what had before been a partnership of co-equals, each with their own responsibilities, and changing it into a disunion of unequals, each with their own agendas. Sad, but true.
As far as dating goes, yeah, the man should take the lead, just as in a dance. If he doesn't, the choreography doesn't work. But it goes to a specific idea of what a date actually is. It's a specific time, a specific place, and a specific activity of limited duration. I've always thought the best way to begin a relationship is totally casually, by spending some time together and getting to know each other doing something enjoyable, without any pressure or preconceptions.
So, you start out with casual lunches, maybe after work drinks, an afternoon at an outdoor festival or a concert, something like that. Then let it build. This bring her a boquet of roses, take her to a fancy restaurant for wine and an expensive meal on the first date is for fools. What are you going to do to top that on the second date? There's nothing to build on, so the whole relationship goes downhill after that.
However, and this is just me personally, I don't take kindly to women who ask me out. It's an indication that she intends to lead in the dance, and as noted that doesn't work. I certainly wouldn't allow her to buy my dinner. I don't consider that manly, or gentlemanly, at all. She wants to buy her own dinner? Fine. I don't have a problem with that, but it's unnecessary because I asked her out and made the date.
Finally, as to sex, if it's not mutally enjoyable to both partners, I fail to see what the point of it is. I've always felt that the only reason to make love with a woman is so that she feels beautiful and good about herself, to put a blush on her cheeks and make her happy. That's what makes me feel like a man.
But I don't need sex to live. I need money. I don't ask a woman out on a date simply because I'd like to have sex with her, that would be ridiculous. Naturally, I wouldn't ask a woman out on a date whom I wouldn't like to have sex with, but getting her into bed is not my primary objective. I simply want to spend some time with her, get to know her, and find out if we're mutually compatible, share the same values, and can enter into a serious relationship. Great sex comes from that. Great relationships don't come from sex.
If I do not know her, if she is not honest, if I cannot trust her, I am not going to invest my money in a relationship with her. I am not about to expose myself to tremendous liabilities on the outside chance that she's not just going to change her mind after a few years, waste my money, bury me in debt, slap me with child support, and leave. It just seems to me that if a woman really wanted to enter into a committed relationship with a man, then she ought to be primarily concerned with providing him with clear and convincing evidence that the return on his investment is worth more than he puts into it. If after a couple of months of dating, she has not indicated to me that she intends to be my life partner, my helpmate and the mother to my children, then all she's indicated is that she isn't worth 50%. She's supposed to be smarter than me, but she's so stupid she can't figure that out?
All women talk about commitment, but only a few actually make one. Most merely make a promise with the option of changing their minds. A lot view sex as a manipulation tactic to gain access to a bank account and guaranteed child support. I don't play that game, never have and never will.
It's true: men generally just want to do the right thing, and following ever-changing rules is pointless enough to make more and more who do not care about the right thing any more. (c.f. many commenters) That is, if any well-intentioned action is liable to cause outrage...
Regarding the interview, this has to be my favorite bit, because while it should be a "well, duh" moment, it's actual news to far too many: “People who are not putting out for their partners are making a big mistake.” Ya think?
OK, maybe Amy isn't as much of a jerk as I thought. Anybody who likes David Buss can't be all bad. However, although her heart appears to be in the right place, she is incorrect about several issues.
Let's start with Playgirl and porn. Playgirl, the magazine, may be read mostly by gay men, but Playgirl the porn video series is definitely heterosexual and some of the best vignette couples porn out there. There is one scene with Tory Lane in Playing Dirty and another with Isis Love in Hot Caress that are just amazing.
However, about 95% of porn is just plain junk, although most of the stuff by Vivid and Wicked is pretty safe. First of all, a lot of it is oriented toward anal sex including the thoroughly revolting "ass to mouth". Second, a lot of the positions are strictly for the benefit of the camera and look incredibly uncomfortable, particularly for the woman. The guys probably should use blow-up dolls. Third, the lighting and camera work of most of it are pitiful
Change of subject! In Who Stole Feminism, Christine Hoff Sommers took a whole chapter to discuss the figure that 25% of coeds are raped. She pointed out that apparently a lot of these "rapes" occurred within ongoing relationships ((73% of the women didn't think they'd been raped. More than a third of the "raped" women had sexual intercourse with the same man at a later date, as did more than a third of the victims of "attempted rape".) She then pointed out that one of the unfortunate realities of being in a relationship is that very often you do something that you don't want to, just because the other person does. When a man does it for the benefit of the woman, it's called caring. When a woman does it for the benefit of the man, it's called rape and the man belongs in jail.
As for men becoming kittens, as Buss has pointed out, when it comes to sexual access, women are the choosers and men are the chosen. (However, when it comes to long term relationships, both men and women are highly selective.) As for the comment that men "shouldn't take it personally" when we're turned down, that's just plain unreasonable. Men's expectations about how we will be treated by women in the future are clearly and heavily affected by successes and failures with them in the past. (Going out in a group has the advantage of making the attempts much less risky.) Why should it be otherwise? What women are running into is men's increasing reluctance to even try to connect when women have been so obnoxious to men for so long.
BobH wrote: "As for men becoming kittens, as Buss has pointed out, when it comes to sexual access, women are the choosers and men are the chosen."
I believe it is that way for the vast majority of mammals.
"However, when it comes to long term relationships, both men and women are highly selective."
SHOULD be highly selective is more accurate I think! 8)
Ben Franklin wrote that many men choose a wife in light that is too dim to choose a suit. Having been in one failed marriage (I got married at 23 and frankly was clueless about how to choose) I was quite picky and it has paid off.
Maybe that is the key intervention. Someone needs to write "How To Choose A Spouse" book. And the rest of us need to read it. Given the legal climate today, it behooves us all to be picky.
Trey
Of course women like pornography! It's just a little different from pornography intended for men.
What women find unbearably erotic is the intersection of sex, money, status, aesthetics, and power. This is how romance novels work.
Describe hot sex with an attractive guy, and you may get your female readers a little turned on. But develop his wealth and status attributes a bit--make him an aristocrat with a large estate, say--and the turn-on will be much stronger.
It's hard for guys to fully grasp this, but a man's status and possessions act on women sexually in the same direct way that a woman's shape and face effect us.
Some men make stupid choices, so it seems from reading Amy's blog. Some women do to. Stupid choices are not the exclusive domain of either sex.
I prefer to be a participant in making love with the reckless abandon, as opposed to watching porn.
Now, watching it together and using it for pointers, as if it were the Kama Sutra in motion, well, that could be a blast.
Excellent interview Dr. Helen. I will quibble slightly with the "shouldn't take it personally" line for when a woman turns down a date invitation. Admit it or not...it IS intensely personal for many men; we have made ourselves vulnerable in declaring our interest and have been informed that it's not wanted.
Now, I think I understand what you're driving at there. Men shouldn't let their self-esteem be crushed by a turned-down date, they should take it as a sign that you probably wouldn't want to be in a relationship with her anyway and there are a myriad of reason why a woman may not want to go out with a man, many of which don't relate specifically to him. All of this is fair enough. But, in my experience at least, it's hard not to ask the "what's wrong with me?" question in that situation.
"The" wrote:
"However, and this is just me personally, I don't take kindly to women who ask me out. It's an indication that she intends to lead in the dance, and as noted that doesn't work. I certainly wouldn't allow her to buy my dinner. I don't consider that manly, or gentlemanly, at all. She wants to buy her own dinner? Fine. I don't have a problem with that, but it's unnecessary because I asked her out and made the date."
Contrasted with your last paragraph I find your position rather amusing and hypocritical. I understand it, its old school chivalry. I follow it often myself, but I'm not stupid enough to ignore an opportunity because a woman asked me out. I'd rather enjoy it if women got off their arses and quit expecting me to be a mind reader, they want equality right? Why do I have to do all the heavy lifting? Domestic chores and bring home the bacon?
In this day and age of princess entitlement queens, you're setting yourself up being the leader just as much as if you supposedly let her "lead the dance". As I see it, a woman who can take that leap just might be worth it, obviously I'd go the same route you describe to see if she's worthy of being a mate/mother of my children.
@Cham said... "I can't help but notice the two of you blame the "feminists" for turning men into kittens, but approve of the idea of the modern day hook-up as well as it being okay for women to pay for a date, which would also be a product of feminism. So is feminism the big evil or is it a positive?"
_______
Charles Ponzi give a fair amount of his skin so it could be grafted onto a woman who he learned was dying of severe burns, it was at great pain he saved another. Just because he scammed and was generally bad did not mean he never helped anyone.
Oskar Schindler risked his own life and heroicly saved many Jews during the Holocaust. However, he was regularly unfaithful to his wife. Just because he is a hero didn't mean he never hurt anyone.
Just because something has generally done good doesn't mean it has never done any harm, and just because something has generally done harm does not mean it never did anything good. I don't see where we have to have an all or nothing approach in regards to feminism.
I agree with Trey. For most people, and especially anyone who plans to have children, choosing a spouse is the most important decision of their lives, yet they have no strategy for how to choose the right person.
The way I see it, that is what dating is for. Most people use dating as a way of seeing if the person they are dating is the right person for them, based on nothing more than how that person makes them feel. Instead, they should be using their time trying to find out what is important to them in a partner, and how they can determine if their current partner meets those needs.
Dating is also a chance to learn how to make a long-term relationship work. That's why I disagree with Amy about hooking up. It's not that any individual hook-up is bad. It's that by skipping the dating scene you miss out on a very important chance to learn the skills needed to make a marriage work.
@Trusty said - I don't see where we have to have an all or nothing approach in regards to feminism.
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If this was first, or even second wave feminism, I would likely agree. The problem is, that the current form of feminism doesn't care about equality anymore. They care about privilege. And the saddest part is that they have gotten a lot of their views enacted into law (VAWA, Title IX, IMBRA, DV/Primary Agressor). Modern Feminism is a hate movement, not an equality movement.
Helen....well done. You and Amy are doing great work. Please keep it up.
I'll bet all men (including wolfboy) wish they could say he is wrong in his post above. But he's not.
Just about all social "movements" in our country are hurray for me and screw you movements. And as individual groups, they have never had the power to force their opinions into law of the land. So over time, they have loosely banded together with some movements that are fair, just, and make sense - like the civil rights movement, equal pay for equal work, etc. They call themselves the democrat party now. The differences in individuals within those groups will shake some back out of those groups as time goes on. Like with prop 8, for instance.
The individual counts, and each individual carries the same amount of weight at the ballot box.
That's why we get to vote in "private". That's also why they wish to remove secret ballots in voting for unions.
Mob rule is dangerous. Even if it's my mob. And THAT'S why we are a republic, and not a democracy.
All I can say is mass quantities of Columbian coffee takes me places I probably wouldn't go this early in the morning otherwise.
Feminists are right: Women don't have to have sex with the husband in a marriage, they don't have to do a damn thing for him. And they also have no legal obligation.
By the same token, a man doesn't have to talk to the woman, support her in any way (except possibly a legal minimum, even today), buy her a gift for her birthday or be nice in any way. The man will likely be liable to her in some legal way, though. He can do that minimum.
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What a great-sounding marriage. Maybe men should become the snarling, adolescent brats ("you can't make me do anything") that feminists / even the majority of women have become.
The only reason women get away with this is because men are chasing after them for sex and women have some leeway to use men. This starts switching around in some cases after women are age 40 (50 at the latest), although some men retain the habits they developed when they were groveling in their '20s.
Man, what a nice thing romance is.
Here's what I can say to men:
You don't have to put up with it.
If you made the mistake of getting married, take your lumps in divorce court (and you WILL take your lumps), pay some of your hard-earned money over to the parasite and then be done with it.
DON'T friggin' give women a stick if you don't want to be beat over the head with it.
And I have seen a WHOLE lot of men who kind of resent being ordered around by the "boss", who resent the absolute lack of any kind of affection or nice word, not to mention sex, and who resent having to work full-time for this beast.
And they stay married. Until the day they die.
There is a better life.
@wolfboy69 said... "If this was first, or even second wave feminism, I would likely agree. The problem is, that the current form of feminism doesn't care about equality anymore."
_______
Current feminism is all but useless. But it is nearly inevitable when you debate some women (almost always on the left) about feminism that any opposition to feminism will be met with accusations that you don't want women to have the right to vote, don't want them to have equal pay, think they should be property, yada yada.
It should seem obvious to them, but it either isn't or it is too good of an argument weapon to admit it, that our position that we don't want them using the law as a weapon against us is not the same as us opposing their basic rights.
TGIF
Trust - first when I typed @trusty...it was just a type I missed. Sorry about that.
Agreed - sadly, it all boils down to an emotional argument instead of a rational discussion. I challenge modern feminists to show me just how they are still oppressed today. They try to trot out the Wage Gap every time. When you can show how there really isn't a gap, they shift to a new topic instead of admitting they are wrong.
What bothers me most, is people like our new V.P. who was instrumental in getting VAWA passed. The man was abused by his older sister and still passed something that is discriminatory against men in the DV and Sexual Assault arena.
I understand that women are the largest voting block and politicians pander to them, but my understanding was that our government was supposed to look out for ALL it's citizens. That, IMO, is the biggest thing that needs to be changed with our government - no special interest group lobbying.
wolfboy69,
"The man was abused by his older sister and still passed something that is discriminatory against men in the DV and Sexual Assault arena."
Carey Roberts has an interesing article on this abuse and how unfair it was for Biden to get VAWA passed:
http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2006/0503roberts.html
Modern Feminism is cultural Marxism with women as the class victims and men as oppressors. Their victimhood is without end, otherwise, the jig would be up and they'd have to get honest work.
An interesting news piece.
Mating Game Is a Waiting Game
From Professor Fate's article:
"By holding out, females can more accurately screen for potential providers, while waiting males can prove they're suitable mates."
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Gee, nothing one-sided about that.
Head I win, tails you lose.
I guess as a culture when it comes to sex, partnering and marriage we sort of have 2 plans. We have the hook-up which is for people who want to address their biological need for sex, and then the waiting game which is for those that want to choose a lifemate.
This is all well and good, except for that small challenge when your lifemate choice inevitably finds out about all that previous hook-up activity. How do we handle that?
Thanks for the link Helen. Good Read.
Cham - This is all well and good, except for that small challenge when your lifemate choice inevitably finds out about all that previous hook-up activity. How do we handle that?
I thought that is what No Fault Divorce is all about.
about 95% of porn is just plain junk
Years ago the late science fiction author Theodore Sturgeon stood up before an S.F. convention and declared, “Ninety percent of science fiction is crap!” — then before the enraged fans could lynch him, he qualified that with, “Ninety percent of everything is crap.” This principle has since become known as “Sturgeon's Revelation” (or Sturgeon's Law), and can be seen to have general applicability, though the exact percentage varies somewhat.
Thanks for that interview. Very refreshing to see.
And you are hot hot hot... Is that unprofessional to say? Too bad, you are very attractive. :)
Something I will say about sex...
While not as common, most women would be hurt if their husbands never wanted to have sex with them, let alone acted repulsed at the thought of having sex with them. Why it is so hard to understand why the reverse is devastating to a husband as well is beyond me.
Feminist readers--no where in my statement did I say women should have sex when they don't feel like it. I said it is devastating when they never do. Problem is, too many feelings are self-induced, yet we tend to blame others for them.
If a woman does not wish to have sex with her husband how can one be so sure those feelings are self-induced?
@Cham said... "If a woman does not wish to have sex with her husband how can one be so sure those feelings are self-induced?"
______
Cham, I didn't say that.
Just like how someone above didn't say that all of feminism was bad.
I said "too many feelings are self induced." This is true of men and women alike in many cases but not all. Please explain to me how saying that is "being sure a woman's feelings are self induced"?
I don't see why you take comments to the extremes like that.
Trust, in the preceding sentence you were referring to women. I assumed in the next sentence when you said "too many feelings are self-induced" you were referring to women who did not want to have sex with their husbands.
I'm not buying the self-induced feeling argument for not wanting to have sex, male or female.
Cham
Fair enough. I can see where you took it that way.
There are many reasons people may not want to have sex. People's feelings are often influenced by their behavior. If a woman choses to have a husband-bashing session with her girlfriends, she's likely not going to feel like having sex with him. If she, instead, considers all the ways he is a good husband, it's not a guarantee she'll be in the mood, but she is certainly more likely to feel like it if she decides to marinate in positives instead of the negatives.
Similar things can be said of a man. If he stews about his wife's real or perceived flaws, he'll likely not feel like celebrating valentines day. But if he instead focuses on on her good qualities, he may feel differently.
There can be countless examples where feelings can be largely self induced.
I'm in no way saying that this is the only reason people don't want to have sex, and I am certainly not saying it is always their own fault. But, and I stand by this, people's behaviors and the things they allow to dominate their thoughts will influence their own feelings more than they care to admit. Unfortunately, most people, male and female, find it easier to dwell and complain, feed their negative feelings, all the while blaming their partner.
I hope I was clear. I realize it is easy to be misunderstood in email.
:)
I don't see why people keep ignoring the elephant in the room. So I will say it plain.
Ladies - in the very very vast and very very overwhelming majority of the cases - if you aren't having sex with your husband, someone else is.
I have never had sex with an elephant. Period.
Ladies - in the very very vast and very very overwhelming majority of the cases - if you aren't having sex with your husband, someone else is.
I'm not sure that statement is true.
This comment has been removed by the author.
I'm not sure that statement is true.
You can bet money on it.
Pete, if you can prove it, please do. Cite your source.
Cham, comedian Ron White said it best. Paraphrasing...
"If you don't have sex with me for 3 months, I'll go have sex with somebody else. I know, I've seen me do it!"
Cham, I don't really give a fuck if you believe me or not. If it comforts you to believe otherwise, be my fucking guest.
Short of a few gelded milquetoasts, I've never known a man, who when their wife cut them off for any significant period of time, did not find solace elsewhere. And I've known men from all walks of life.
I'm not going to do women a disservice by lying to them - cut your man off, he will "beg" for a while, but sooner or later he is going to stop begging. At that point it's all but a sure thing he is dipping his wick elsewhere - and frankly, it's your own damn fault if he is for playing sexual games with him.
Number one reason any man cheats: You have stopped putting out for him. Runners up? You don't appreciate him and do nothing but nag; you've become a dead lay and are no longer sexually adventurous, and you've let yourself go to hell.
A lot are interrelated - but every other reason is small in the grand scheme of things.
Keep his balls empty.
Be appreciative of him.
Keep the fire burning.
And don't go to pot.
Do all those, and you are all but assured of a loyal man.
I never thought I would, but I did.
If things are bad at home, and you end up at an unexpected place at an unexpected time,it can happen. She was married too. Some doors swing both ways.
The best way to beat the waiting game (as brought up by the Professor above)I ever knew was having a '57 stratocaster strapped around my shoulders and a microphone in front of my face. Believe me, there's no waiting.
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