The Great College Hoax
Kathy Kristof in Forbes: "It's too late to save the country from the housing finance bubble. But the college bubble is not quite as far along."
posted by Helen at 3:11 PM
Tuesday, January 20, 2009
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32 Comments:
I've thought that and seen that for a while now - and student loans can't be dismissed in bankruptcy.
A buddy of mine went out with a women who - it turned out - had well over $100,000 in student loans, not much of a job, and a doctorate in some dopey area like cross-disciplinary social studies.
He wisely let that potential relationship slide. I'm sure she eventually found a sucker - uhh, I mean a good-earning husband - but in the future there's only going to be so many of those to go around.
@JG:
You see a problem, others see an opportunity for a bailout.
Possibly what you require is a trip to the eye doctor.
College should be viewed as a tool or investment. If you can't identify a use for it or generate an expected ROI for it, then you don't need it.
Even if you DO define a use for it you should be very aware of the costs. Why do you have to go to that expensive private institution vs a local state school? Is it going to generate THAT much (any) more income?
The reality of today's job market is, unless you plan on going into business for yourself, you need some kind of education after high school. Basically high school++. So get your sheepskin in basket weaving and join the masses. A degree in a specific profession or training in a trade skill would do you better. You'll still be in the masses but you'll have a leg up on Mr or Mrs Generic Graduate.
Businesses don't want to do basic training (apprenticeships) It's too expensive (lost resources when you don't pan out) So I expect we're stuck with the current higher education system.
And why in the world has education been beating health care in terms of rising costs? The professors are sure not getting pay raises that amount to the costs. What are they doing to so mismanage higher education cost wise?
Trey
More than a degree per se, a person needs marketable skills that others are willing to hire. I've known college graduates who have no skills and who end up at places like Starbucks. Sorry, but what did they think they were going to do with a degree in Medeval Literature? Likewise, I've known a lot of people without a degree but with good skills who make more than most college grads.
A person with a degree in Medieval Literature (or Philosophy, English, whatever) could do all kinds of things if he was sharp and personable and not a snob. For example, there are many business=to-business sales jobs that have great earnings potential and can also be a lot of fun for those who are willing to take some risks and to work in a relatively unstructured environment. But many college graduates will refuse to even consider such a job because they have been told that it will instantly turn them into Willy Loman. So they wind up as bitter baristas at Starbucks instead.
For example, there are many business=to-business sales jobs that have great earnings potential and can also be a lot of fun for those who are willing to take some risks and to work in a relatively unstructured environment.
What part of that job requires a college degree? Being good at sales is a valuable skill, one that most people don't have.
LJ...depends what you're selling. But in general, companies who are hiring people to sell multimillion-dollar products at the executive level (enterprise software systems, locomotives, industrial automation systems) prefer a college degree, whether or not this requirement is really justified.
I've been selling for over 20 years. I have a degree in chemistry. My first sales job was in hazardous waste disposal and environmental remediation. I spent a considerable amount of time back thencalculating hydrocarbon contents, O2 contents, BTU contents as well as many other components of various waste streams. I could not have performed that job without the degree. In sales you have to work with lots of math, calculating costs and projecting profits. You also have to write proposals and communicate with clients through documentation, letters and emails. Good speaking ability is helpful when you have to do sometimes 4 presentations a day, maybe more.
I can't remember when I have run into any sales person who sold to businesses who didn't have a college degree.
@David:
Having just finished this, it strikes me that what's needed is for those with more historically-minded credentials to point out that There Is Nothing New Under The Sun.
I'd love to study Classical Greek, and then set up a theater staging all of those classics, with a subtitle display.
Virtue, virtue, virtue.
He wisely let that potential relationship slide. I'm sure she eventually found a sucker - uhh, I mean a good-earning husband - but in the future there's only going to be so many of those to go around.
Sweet Obama, JG! Every once in a while I get this notion in my head that I should settle down and get hitched. Then something like this comes along and scares the Bush outta me!
At some point, I'll probably thank you, but right now I'm cowering in fear!
;-)
Cham..."Good speaking ability is helpful when you have to do sometimes 4 presentations a day, maybe more"...yep...and good speaking ability is very helpful for most professions, if not quite as vital as in biz-biz sales. It's really pretty strange that people complete 4-8 years of college and come out without the ability to give a good talk/presentation. Rumor has it that there was once a field of study called "rhetoric," which was part of the standard liberal arts education.
Sorry, but what did they think they were going to do with a degree in Medeval Literature?
Anyone see the indirect negative result of high College costs like discussed in Forbes article? I am a Philosophy major, want to see how the job market is there? What did I do? I went in to Finances and work for Investment Bank because that's where the corps that pay are. Hey, I know math, business, and I have a good head on my shoulders, but do we want to limit what people do with their lives?
People like me and our skill? What you will have is a bunch of bankers, factory workers, some IT folk and some here and there in between as far as College Education is concerned.
You want that? Because I can show you what the future is and being originally from Soviet Union, I can point you right across the ocean and tell you that's what you will have as far as education (which is superb if you want math and science, but not much more than that).
Businesses don't want to do basic training (apprenticeships) It's too expensive (lost resources when you don't pan out) So I expect we're stuck with the current higher education system.
Rubbish. Hire people as cheap, cheap labor on a probationary period. Give them six months of working at minimum wage, and make it clear to them that if they learn the ropes and become a competent entry level employee, they'll get a generous bonus to make up for lost time and a salaried position.
What companies need to do is offer more internships.
T'Mink:
"And why in the world has education been beating health care in terms of rising costs? The professors are sure not getting pay raises that amount to the costs. What are they doing to so mismanage higher education cost wise?"
Two reasons, my professor friends tell me:
(1) Many colleges are now more like fancy resort hotels. Big, well appointed and furnished rooms in the dorms, lots of amenities on campus, like plush gyms, and "free" concerts and other entertainments. Four years (or more, as most students don't graduate in four years anymore) of that costs a lot of money.
(2) More importantly, "Bureaucracy Gone Wild." No more is it just university-college-deparment. No, now there are entire, new administrative "regimes" and "special programs" out there: "diversity," "mentoring," assessment" and so on. And, each must be run by a "Dean." And, of course, each "Dean" must have an "Assistant Dean" and a "Deputy Assistant Dean," and so forth. Then, needless to say, every dean and so on must have a secretary, and a computer, and office space, and a phone line, and a parking place, and a pension and a health care plan, and so on. Administrative costs were, once upon a time, only a small part of the overall university budget, small enough to be lumped in with miscellaneous. Now, they have exploded exponentially and show no signs of stopping.
How about not everyone SHOULD go to college. When I was in school, I graded for several professors, and assisted in the Labs (Computer Information Systems), and there were people there who had neither the skills (reading and writing primarily), motivation or desire (I would say 10-15% were only there because the parents expected it) to be there. And if you aren't there because you want to, quit taking up space for those who do want to, but can't get in.
I personally didn't go for my degree until I was 29. I wasn't mature enough to handle college right out of high school. I joined the military first, grew up a bit, and then knocked around trying to figure out what worked for me. And for me at least, it was the right thing.
The Education Industrial Complex.
Kind of hits the nail on the head, eh? It has become an industry as much as anything else. It is the 7th largest industry in the U.S. Probably closer to the top now, considering what has transpired of late. Many are employed in the system, all want to keep their jobs. As such, a myth is perpetrated on us all concerning the value of some of the degrees one can hang on a shingle.
What we DO need, math and science grads, are lacking. So we are importing them. It almost seems that college degrees are necessary for hire to give those with debt some sort of leg up to enable them to pay off the loans (i.e., get a job). My education is limited to knowing the math necessary to do what I do, and have been doing, for better than 3 decades. The majority of my ability comes from a gift given me at birth, enabling me to figure electro / mechanical things out. I seminar people all the time with sheep skins that weigh much more than mine. Many seem to lack practical application skills. I assume many got B's and C's in lecture class, and nothing higher than a D in lab.
Rocket science is a horse of a different color, though. That is, as long as they remember to convert from the metric system before applying calculations. Right, NASA?
Rocket science is a horse of a different color, though. That is, as long as they remember to convert from the metric system before applying calculations. Right, NASA?
NASA keeps getting blamed for the Mars Climate Orbiter loss but it was Lockheed who screwed up the metric/english unit conversions, not the JPL. The JPL messed up in not catching the trajectory error in time to make a course correction. The particular error was on the order of 1 part per million but it accummulated over time. It is rocket science after all.
College is necessary for some jobs but a degree is simply serving as a lazy way to cull the herd when examining job applications. There are a lot of jobs that shouldn't require a degree but a high school diploma has degraded to the point where it doesn't mean much anymore.
Ruddy wrote: ""Bureaucracy Gone Wild." No more is it just university-college-deparment. No, now there are entire, new administrative "regimes" and "special programs" out there: "diversity," "mentoring," assessment" and so on. And, each must be run by a "Dean.""
Yikes. You are of course completely correct. They are displaying the products of political correctness.
Thanks for answering my question so well and so kindly!
Have a nice day.
For real! 8)
Trey
Leon..."Hey, I know math, business, and I have a good head on my shoulders, but do we want to limit what people do with their lives?"
Are you suggesting that the *rest* of us should be required to pay (ie, to contribute our labor) so that *you* can do what you want to with your life?
Leon sez:
"People like me and our skill?"
--------
What is that skill exactly? I've come across a lot of people with degrees in engineering and the like who read philosophy and history and the like on their own - and who have become quite well versed in it.
There is a quasi-famous story about a woman who wanted to put together a conference with a theme of "science meets humanities" or something like that. She was suffering under the illusion that although humanities people were too stupid for math and science, the math and science people were likewise clueless about humanities.
So she did a search for someone who was an expert in some field of humanities - who had also published information - and she found an expert on Mayan culture who seemed to be VERY intelligent.
The guy she found was Richard Feynman, who was a Nobel prize winner and a professor of physics.
-------
If you truly do have "skills" then you can make money off that. If you have keen insights into philosophy you can write a book. If you have a vast knowledge of philosophers, you can also write a book. Make it entertaining and it may just sell.
If you just want to read the stuff you want to read in college but not really push yourself and not really build up anything at all, then you are qualified to be a housewife (if a woman) or a dock worker, homeless guy or jailed guy (if a man).
degee of no help?join the military! Many jobs! decent pay, clothing, medicaol, housing, travel, G.I.Bill and best of all:" our nation alwayhs funds the military.Always.
What I don't remember much of: what I learned in college.
What I do remember much of: what I read in the very smart books I voraciously read.
I can sit at the feet of lukewarm common professors for a ton of money, or I can learn from the best in their field for less than $30 a "class."
College is way overrated. It's overripe for disruptive innovation.
For whatever reason, college costs WAY to much now. When I entered the University of Tennessee in Summer of 1969, tuition for a school year was $330. You could rather easily pay your way through college with a part-time job.
Now tuition is $6,250 per school year. Neary 19 times the cost. Add books, housing, food, clothing, etc and you'll have a hard time paying for college with a full-time job.
Something needs to change.
I hear you Dad. I got my M.A. in the late 80s for $720 a semester plus book costs from Middle Tennessee State University. It was, needless to say, a bargain.
I payed cash for my masters.
I could not do that now and I am working with a doctorate! 8)
Trey
Dadvocate/Tmink - both are on.
I went back to school in 98. I attended DeVry...so I went to school for 3 years (Full time). Total cost of just tuition? 30K. Add everything else, and you are looking at 50K easily. Thank god I had the G.I. bill. That covered my housing, and nothing else. Student loans for the tuition. Everything else, out of my pocket. Ridiculous.
Well, TMink and Dadvocate, you don't want to know what my daughter's costs are and have been to this point in time.
I have palpitations, shortness of breath and break into a cold sweat frenzy every time it rolls across my mind. She's in "18th grade" right now, and is still looking at up to five more years.
If you plan to send your kids to college, be prepared to work until you die. You sure as hell won't have anything left to retire on.
My pal br549 wrote: "Well, TMink and Dadvocate, you don't want to know what my daughter's costs are and have been to this point in time."
You are right sir! I do NOT want to know!!!!! 8)
I had palpatations yesterday when I client's mom was talking about him wanting to drive soon. He is a day older than my eldest. So you are spot on, I do not want to know.
And please call me Trey, we have been Doc Helen friends for years!
Trey
Yes sir, I will. And thank you.
"If you plan to send your kids to college, be prepared to work until you die. You sure as hell won't have anything left to retire on."
Maybe the antidote for this - and an alternative to mortgaging your brains and intellect until our kids collect Social Security (?) is to teach the kids to make their own success with as little financial aid help as possible.
I remember reading this story a while ago. These parents (he, a high-school science teacher; she, a secretary) had daughters: one of them was an avid reader and basketball player, and she had great college prospects. But not long before she graduated high school, her father told her, point blank, "I'm sorry to tell you, Sarah Louise, but we can't pay for your college and we can't bankrupt ourselves in the process. But we always taught you to trust yourself and to rise on your own. If you want a college degree badly, you will have to pay for it yourself."
She had no other choice than to earn her college degree with her brow sweat added to it. She worked her jobs and went to college at night, or whenever it was available for her. Many times, she had to take a job far away from her college. What did she do? She found another college nearby and transferred credits, while she worked. It took her six years or so - many jobs, many transfer colleges -, but she earned her BA without owing a soul a penny.
People may think her no-penny-owed BA is an anomaly, but that's not true. It is still doable nowadays. You need to be creative and determined not to let external circumstances rule over you and to tame one challenge at a time. I returned to college for an Associates in Computer Science. No Federal aid. I paid out of my own pocket: I tutored Spanish, helped create an institute of Spanish learning in my area, and even took on a paid internship and did a couple of translation and computer-related assignments. It took me longer than two years, but when my Phi Theta Kappa diploma arrived in the mail, it was paid for.
It is curious that you come to appreciate an education a lot more when you have to add financial sweat equity into it, instead of having someone else's money pay for a "high-life" "college experience." In fact, I appreciate a lot more my Associates in Computer Science than my own Liberal Arts bachelors from a Northeastern women's college. I don't even give my Alumni fund a single red cent: they have endowments and great cash flow through Federal loans. Why should they try to pickpocket my wallet thirteen years after graduation?
Besides, $30,000 in Stafford and Perkins Loans are not a breeze to get rid of. My husband and I bit the bullet early on our marriage (as soon as I graduated, we married) and paid as much as we could as soon as the grace period ended. No loan consolidation. After nine years, the loans were paid in full. All with the help of my financially savvy husband, who graduated from a Federal academy, and for which he took a $5 grand loan, which he quickly paid off after four months as an Engineer on a merchant ship - a ship he boarded the day after Dan Quayle shook his hand while handing him his Bachelor of Science degree. (I guess my poor hubby wanted to forget that experience - Heh, heh...) To this day, he's very weary of owing anything to anyone, especially since he grew up in a very poor household: any possibility of his parents paying for any part of his education was non-existent. And yet, all his sacrifices have paid off: he's a successful engineer.
Student loans given out like candy don't encourage a can-do-on-my-own attitude: they only give you the "buy now and pay me later" attitude so prevalent on credit cards - which is why so many fall into debt and eventually go bankrupt.
Oh, did I forget? Last thing I know about that college girl... She's now Governor of Alaska.
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