Tuesday, June 10, 2008

Munis for Dummies

I have to say that the "Books for Dummies" are really useful for understanding various topics that one doesn't know much about. I use them often, such as this one on how to garden. I am now reading Bond Investing For Dummies to learn how to buy municipal bonds. I figure that if taxes increase, I'll need to find some way to shelter savings that makes sense. Since muni interest is often tax free, it seems that they might be a better investment than simply putting money in CDs. Anyone have experience with municipal bonds--good or bad--that they can share? If so, let me know in the comments because I would love to hear from people who actually have experience with them as opposed to only reading about them in a book or listening to Suze Orman discuss them on her show.

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37 Comments:

Blogger MikeT said...

I wouldn't touch a government bond with a 10 foot pole now because of the impending pension crisis that local and state governments face. Guess where your money will be going? Guess how hard the government will fight to not let itself get burdened by all of the financial obligations it has?

9:22 AM, June 10, 2008  
Blogger Kevin said...

Are you only considering buying them directly, or are you considering municipal bond funds as well?

9:24 AM, June 10, 2008  
Blogger David said...

I've done some muni investing. A few thoughts:

1)Munis are generally exempt from federal income taxes and from taxes in the state that issued them; however, certain bonds ("AMT bonds") have their income counted for alternative minimum tax purposes. Depending on an individual's personal tax situation, this may or may not be a problem.

2)Like most bonds, munis are to some extent a bet on the direction of interest rates. If you buy a 10-year bond paying 4% and interest rates rise sharply, then you can either hold the bond (meaning you will be getting less than you would have if you had waited to buy it) or (all other things being the same) sell it for less than you paid for it. If interest rates fall, though, you will be able to sell the bond for more than you paid for it.

3)I've never watched Suze Orman, but understand she has a lot of her own $ in zero-coupon munis, which don't pay interest over time but accumulate it and pay it at the end. These are especially interest-rate-sensitive, and IMNSHO probably not a good idea for the average investor to use as a major part of his/her portfolio.

4)If there is a big income tax increase, munis will become more valuable and the interest rates they pay will decline accordingly.

9:41 AM, June 10, 2008  
Blogger Helen said...

Kevin,

I am thinking of buying them directly--I have heard that the bond funds are not so great.

David,

Yes, that is what I read about Suze Orman, that she had zero coupon munis. I would rather have munis that paid interest semi-annually.

As for your point #4, that is my impression, that it might be better to get in now while some of the rates are decent than wait until there is a big tax increase (which of course is not certain).

11:37 AM, June 10, 2008  
Blogger babbleboy said...

Blackrock offers a couple of term based muni funds that return principle to the investor in 2018 and 2020. This gives the investor the benefit of a basket of bonds but also date certain return of principle. I've been thinking about buying munis that are closer to maturity (3-5 years). I'm not sure how liquid/transparent the market for these things is though ...

12:30 PM, June 10, 2008  
Blogger Stephen W. Stanton said...

David seems to have his facts straight.

As an asset class, muni bonds are straightforward... Principal, coupon payments... Value goes down as interest rates go up.

Add the tax considerations and it gets slightly more complicated. (Your best bet is local munis, as there could be tax on out-of state muinis... Unless your local tax is low... Which I believe is the case in Tennessee.)

Due to market efficiency, Munis are priced to have a slightly higher after-tax risk-adjusted yield than taxable products for an in-state investor with high taxable income from other sources.

Munis make the most sense for high-income people in NY, NJ, California, and other high-tax areas (e.g., where I live).

There is definitely an element of risk... Municipal finances are terrible after the recent spending binges. Revenues might decline even as spending grows unabated.

Long story short, the answer to the question of whether to invest in munis is this: "it depends".

It makes sense if:
- You make a lot of taxable $$$
- You can tolerate large concentrations of risk buying large bonds directly (vs. shares in funds)
- You already have exposure to equities (preferably via passive index funds, and preferably with a good international mix)
- You have liquidity from other sources to meet one year's expenses
- You already max out tax-deferred 401(k) type arrangements
- You paid down all other interest-bearing debts (with the possible exception of your mortgage)
- You understand the implications for AMT

Complicated, I know... But the rules were largely made by the same people who charge you to plan around them.

1:14 PM, June 10, 2008  
Blogger Ken Gross said...

I'm an investment advisor and I have some clients who invest in muni bonds. Munis come in all kinds of flavors.

Please be sure to consult, and establish a relationship with, a licensed professional before you buy anything.

2:09 PM, June 10, 2008  
Blogger serket said...

I'm considering getting "Cooking for Dummies."

Do you have a Roth IRA?

David: If interest rates fall, though, you will be able to sell the bond for more than you paid for it.

Isn't the main value of a bond based on how much interest it will pay you?

2:16 PM, June 10, 2008  
Blogger David said...

serket...the value of a bond is based on how much interest it will pay you *in comparison to other investment opportunities*. For most muni bonds, the interest you are getting paid is fixed, so a general fall in interest rates will make that periodic payment more valuable compared with what else is out there. See my post some bond basics for more on this.

2:35 PM, June 10, 2008  
Blogger Helen said...

David,

Thanks, good post on bonds.

Serket,

No, I don't have a Roth IRA.

3:13 PM, June 10, 2008  
Blogger Dave F said...

I would avoid muni bond funds at all costs. Given that muni bonds' yields are generally seen as less risky than corporate bonds (even in light of municipalities' shaky finances) the yields offered on muni bonds are generally paltry (though, this is mitigated to some extent by their tax-advantaged status). However, the fees inherent in investing in bond funds (or any other type of fund) eat into returns, along with the standard burdens of both inflation and taxes (again, here, taxes may not be an issue). So, with muni funds you have at least to burdens that will retard your return: the fees you pay to the fund manager, and inflation.

Better to buy munis directly, as others have mentioned. Also understand that if the munis throw off interest payments, your yield to maturity will likely be less than the stated yield because the YTM calculation naively assumes you can reinvest the dividends and achieve an equal rate of return (this is termed reinvestment risk, and is an important part of the risk profile of any bond analysis.)

(I just got through studying bond valuation for the CFA exams, so all of this is top of mind right now.)

8:31 PM, June 10, 2008  
Blogger Helen said...

Dave F,

Thanks, that makes sense. Everyone I know in muni bond fonds seems to lose money. I wish this stuff was simpler.

7:41 AM, June 11, 2008  
Blogger knoxwhirled said...

I'm considering getting "Cooking for Dummies."

Quick suggestion: watch the food network. It's much less intimidating to tackle something you've watched than to just read about it. My 2 cents...

9:08 AM, June 11, 2008  
Blogger serket said...

David - Thanks for the link, you gave a good example of comparing the interest rates to other investments.

Knoxwhirled - Thanks for the cooking advice.

1:02 PM, June 11, 2008  
Blogger Jason said...

Helen,

I think there are some terrific values in the muni world right now - not that I'm a market timer, but I am a value seeker. And with the credit crunch being what it is, a lot of municipalities are having a hard time raising money, and are forced to offer attractive interest rates as a result.

There are a number of land mines, though: One of the major ones is that because these issues are so small and thinly traded, valuing them is frequently a matter of sheer guesswork. I don't know if your book mentions it, but back around 2002, a mutual fund company called Heartland had a number of muni funds, some of which were high-yield funds that invested largely in very thinly traded issues. But because they were so infrequently traded, Heartland had to guess at their daily NAV. When the true value of these bonds came to light, Heartland had to write down the NAV on two of its funds - in one case by more than half, and in another case by not much less than that.

Imagine waking up one day and finding that half of all the money you had put in munis, thinking they were safe, had vanished overnight - for no apparent reason. There was no disaster. No market moving event. No huge lawsuit against any particular municipality, no pension crisis, nothing. It just happened, without warning.

That's exactly what happened to shareholders in these two Heartland funds. (You can Google around and find stuff).

That can happen just as easily to holders of individual bonds as it can to muni fund shareholders - and it's because of the thinly traded nature of many of these issues.

That said, a good bond is a good bond regardless of how thinly traded it is. But if you have to read about bonds in Muni Bonds for Dummies, that alone should tell you that these should not be speculative investments for you - meaning you're buying them in hopes of generating capital gains down the road rather than income.

I think you will have more satisfactory results looking for sound issues with a view to holding them to maturity, and enjoying the income in the meantime. (Isn't Tennessee a no-income-tax state?)

Now, if you want to learn about how to dig into these bonds, and how to tell shit from shinola, then I would recommend you going to the library and getting a copy of Benjamin Graham's Security Analysis, published in 1934, and reading the relevant sections, paying particular attention to anything he says regarding margin of safety and the assurance of return of principal.

If you read it, understand it, and LOVE IT, then proceed from there. Hell, chances are you might know more than your broker does, if you do that!

I'm sure your income disqualifies you for a Roth, which can also generate tax-free income at retirement.

Since you have an Insta-daughter, between you and the Insta-Stud, I'd also consider a decent permanent life insurance policy (you might be uninsurable, having already died, as it were, but Glenn might still be insurable).

This would accomplish two things: It would secure the Insta-daughter's future in the event of God-forbid an Insta-death. And it would also, over time, accumulate cash that you can tap on a tax-advantaged basis, as well, to supplement your income. You can do this down the road by borrowing against the policy (tax free) or by selling the policy for cash to a third party (which brings up a whole other set of issues, but you can do it.)

This is not something a do-it-yourselfer should be doing. I encourage you to tap into an expert with some experience. You're really playing your current tax bracket against a future bracket when you retire, etc., plus insurance planning needs, plus risk management. This is an order of magnitude beyond maxing your IRA and 401k. Ditto the commenter above: I think it's important that you get professional advice.

Listening to Suze Orman or Dave Ramsey doesn't count.

2:48 PM, June 11, 2008  
Blogger Brother J said...

Helen,

I am in the municipal leasing business and have been a licensed securities broker (no longer active) so I have a pretty good understanding of this stuff. Some of the other commenters (David, Stephen S, Dave F, Jason) have left you some very good information/advice. I'd like to add a couple of things.

When you buy a bond, muni or otherwise, you should be buying it for current income and consider it a buy and hold investment. As David pointed out, the value of the bond can vary quite a bit in the near term as new issues come out with higher or lower interest rates. My mother took a pretty hefty loss on some corporate bonds because she didn't understand this and when the value of the bond went down due to a rise in general rates she sold it. Had she held onto it until maturity, she would have gotten her money back. In other words, she treated it more like a stock investment than a bond investment.

Unless you are in a very high tax bracket, munis may not make sense when compared to more widely issued/heavily traded taxable corporate issues. If you are in say, an 18% bracket, for the 4% bond that was cited above, your taxable equivalent yield would only be about 4.87% (coupon rate divided by 1-tax bracket %, e.eg. 4/1-0.18). At the 35% bracket your taxable equivalent yield would be 6.15%, so look at what you can get from a high quality corporate bond before you buy muni. Also, keep in mind that only the interest earned is tax free. You still have to pay capital gains tax on any profitable sales if you sell before maturity. You may even have to pay taxes on value appreciation if you buy at a discount from par and hold the bond to maturity.

If you are looking to shelter capital and let it grow, the suggestion by Serket to put something in a Roth IRA is a good one. This allows you to put away after tax dollars which you will be able to invest in stocks, mutual funds, etc., and not pay any taxes on interest, dividends, captial gains, etc. When it comes time to start taking money out, it will be tax free because you invested after-tax dollars.

I'd strongly suggest you get a good financial planner (fee-based, not commissioned) to help you sort out what your goals are and how to achieve them because as I think you probably see now, muni investing is not as simple as just collecting tax free interest.

Just my $0.02. Hope it helps.

6:38 PM, June 11, 2008  
Blogger Jason said...

Well, the Roth is terrific... IF you come in under the income threshold. If not, she runs into a tax problem if she tries to set one up and contribute to it. Yellow flag is waving.

1:46 PM, June 12, 2008  
Blogger Brother J said...

Quite true Jason. Our wonderful tax code doesn't make any of this easy. That's why I suggested Dr. H find a professional financial planner, because trying to shelter income/investments from the tax man can be a minefield.

2:42 PM, June 12, 2008  
Blogger serket said...

"You can contribute to Roth IRA if you have taxable salary and your modified adjusted gross income is less than $110,000 if you are single. If you are married and file a joint return your income limit is $160,000."

If you do decide to find a professional broker, then you should consider checking out Dave Ramsey's website. He has a list of approved agents that follow a specific plan to help you get out of debt, manage your finances and start generating wealth.

12:08 PM, June 13, 2008  
Blogger Jason said...

I wouldn't recommend relying on Ramsey's ELPs for advanced planning. For example, Ramsey requires his endorsed local provider investment counselors to be members of the NASD.

That pretty much excludes the fee-only financial planners, who only provide advice; they do not buy or sell securities.

I also think that outside of the very basic debt reduction and max your retirement fund crowd, and a very good understanding of real estate issues, Dave Ramsey gets quickly out of his depth when talking about other subjects. He's particularly clueless when talking about insurance planning, bond or income investing, and the finer points of mutual funds.

2:54 PM, June 13, 2008  
Blogger Helen said...

Jason,

Where the heck does Ramsey find all of these 12% mutual funds? He talks about them constantly but I have rarely found any consistent ones that pay that much!

5:34 PM, June 13, 2008  
Blogger Dave F said...

mutual funds don't pay a certain return. Their 'payment' is a return, either positive or negative, on your original investment. The stocks or bonds a mutual fund owns may pay dividends or interest payments, and the incomeyou receive from those holdings should be counted in your return calculation. But the problem with most mutual funds is that their fees are onerous, and, when combined with taxes and inflation, make 12% returns almost impossible to sustain over the long term.

I know nothing about this ramsey guy but my intuition is that his 'advice' is not especially helpful.

5:45 PM, June 13, 2008  
Blogger Jason said...

Exactly right, Helen, Dave Ramsey is huffing paint when he says that mutual funds have generated 12% returns historically, and huffing some more when he tries, stupidly, to extrapolate those results in the future.

And I say that as a long time fan of his show!

Here's my critique of Dave Ramsey, which I wrote some time ago:

http://iraqnow.blogspot.com/2006/03/critique-of-dave-ramsey.html

Hope it helps.

6:42 PM, June 13, 2008  
Blogger Tax Free Investing said...

If you are in to Municipal Bonds then it is wise that have a thorough understanding about municipal bond rates too.

9:47 AM, September 11, 2008  
Blogger Bonds for You said...

Bonds have many characteristics such as the way they pay their interest, the market they are issued in, the currency they are payable in, protective features and their legal status. Bond issuers may be governments, corporations, special purpose trusts or even non-profit organizations. Usually it is the type of issuer or the particular nature of a bond that sets it apart in its own category. Therefore any type of bond not suit you if you want to invest in bonds.

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