Monday, June 02, 2008

This is News?

Men prefer being solo over a bad marriage (hat tip: Eric):

Weisman, 49, conducted a survey of 1,533 heterosexual men to research a book aiming to give women an insight into why some smart, successful men opted to stay single -- and help lifelong bachelors understand why they are still the solo man at parties.

He concluded that most men were not afraid of marriage -- but they were afraid of a bad marriage.

"Men are 10 times more scared of marrying the wrong person than of never getting married at all," Weisman told Reuters in a telephone interview.....

This is the first generation of people who have grown up with bad divorces. People assume there is something wrong if you don't marry but these are men who have made a different choice and not given in to social pressures."

The release of his book "So Why Have You Never Been Married?: 10 Insights Into Why He Hasn't Wed"comes amid a growing trend for more people to stay single, with less social or religious pressures on men -- and women -- to tie the knot.

Weisman said U.S. figures showed that in 1980 about 6 percent of men aged in their early 40s had never married but this number had now risen to 17 percent.


So I wonder what a "Sex and Men in the City" movie would be like? But really, what's the news here? It should be obvious to anyone that most people--men and women-- would rather go solo than be involved in a bad marriage.

73 Comments:

Blogger br549 said...

Duh.

7:20 PM, June 02, 2008  
Blogger Francis W. Porretto said...

There is an interesting aspect to the fear-of-a-bad-marriage business: Prior to about 1970, the fear was of being compelled to remain lifelong with an unsuitable spouse. After that, the fear was of being "taken," usually through the courts.

Is the fear more intense today than it was forty years ago? Anecdotally, it would seem so, but anecdotes can mislead. What are the statistics? How old is the average American man when he first marries, and what percent of the marriageable cohort of American men (roughly, the 18-to-60 age group) is unmarried today, compared to the percent just after World War II?

7:53 PM, June 02, 2008  
Blogger TJIC said...


So I wonder what a "Sex and Men in the City" movie would be like?


I believe the phrase you're looking for is "Entourage".

7:58 PM, June 02, 2008  
Blogger Jake said...

From Weisman's website:

"To my way of thinking, the way to really get the most out of life is to try as many things as possible before you leave this place. I suppose to some extent, I was the same way with relationships. I was restless to try a bunch of relationships. I wasn’t commitment phobic, I was an explorer on an adventure."

Sounds like me.

8:17 PM, June 02, 2008  
Blogger Bruce Hayden said...

It should be obvious to anyone that most people--men and women-- would rather go solo than be involved in a bad marriage.

Except that right now, the legal system seems significantly slanted in favor of women in the case of divorce. Thus, the many men here who complain that she got the children and the gold mine, and he got the shaft paying for that gold mine, without getting to parent the children.

Also, there still seems to be a lot of pressure on females to marry. After all, their wedding is the most important day of their lives, etc.

So, I would suggest that right now, females in this country seem to be more willing to jump into marriage, and there is good reason for that (divorce seeming to be a lot better for them than for males).

8:43 PM, June 02, 2008  
Blogger DADvocate said...

I wasn't commitment phobic either, and I paid the price.

Given continued efforts, like Joe Biden's free attorneys for women, I expect that 17 percent to go up much further.

8:46 PM, June 02, 2008  
Blogger br549 said...

Marriage has become like boat ownership. The two happiest days of your life are the day you buy the boat, and the day you get rid of it.

Someone on this blog asked why divorce is so expensive, and then answered it with "because it's worth it".

Some, sadly, can actually say that's true. I'm one of them.

How can someone you loved so much, at one time in your life, end up becoming someone you can only hope and pray you never have to see again?

All those years, the time shared, effort, hopes, dreams...wasted.

To this day, I love my kids more and more every day. It just keeps getting stronger. Ineffable.

The ex... total indifference. I don't care where she is, what she's doing, or, God help me, if she's dead or alive. And I mean every word.

That's a pretty sad state of affairs.

9:32 PM, June 02, 2008  
Blogger AFFA said...

That's a good summary, but I can make it shorter: I'm not afraid of commitment; I'm afraid of a lack of commitment.

9:42 PM, June 02, 2008  
Blogger cinderkeys said...

Hmm. One of the Amazon reviewers for this book says that never-married men outnumber their female counterparts by 20 percent. Interesting.

So is this because men tend to get screwed in divorce proceedings? Dunno. When people are in love, they tend not to think things like that could possibly apply to them -- THEIR girlfriend/boyfriend would never screw them over, which is a moot point because THEIR relationship will last forever.

My first guess is that if you're a woman who wants children, you're operating under time constraints. Maybe you're willing to settle for Mr. Good Enough as you approach the dreaded advanced maternal age. Men who want kids can marry someone much younger when they're 50 and make it happen.

12:09 AM, June 03, 2008  
Blogger BobH said...

I'm afraid of women who demand to be trusted but also insist on being well paid to lie.

8:03 AM, June 03, 2008  
Blogger jay c said...

I'm on the same page with you on this one, Doc. I saw this article a couple of days ago and wondered if people actually got paid for this "work."

8:31 AM, June 03, 2008  
Blogger MikeT said...

The real commitment problem is with women, not men, as shown by the divorce rate. Men are reluctant to make the initial commitment, but women seem to be largely incapable of actually keeping to their commitments once they make them. At a rate of 70 some percent of all divorces being filed by women, that's no longer a nasty stereotype, but a valid generalization about women!

10:57 AM, June 03, 2008  
Blogger Marbel said...

It does seem like a no-brainer, but I have known quite a few women who stayed in unhappy marriages for various reasons: their children, their religious beliefs, fear of being alone, fear that the husband will take their children away, fear of loss of status.

I know some of you guys will sneer at women's fear of losing their children, but some men do threaten it and women still fear it.

I'd love to see that 70% divorce statistic broken down by reason.

11:20 AM, June 03, 2008  
Blogger msst895 said...

br549 said...

> Marriage has become like boat ownership. The two happiest days
> of your life are the day you buy the boat, and the day you get rid
> of it.

That's a good one.

> How can someone you loved so much, at one time in your life,
> end up becoming someone you can only hope and pray you never have
> to see again?

I don't know, but that's how it is with me too. I think it's because I feel terribly betrayed.

I mean, look at it this way, you've made the biggest promise to somebody you'll ever make and you let somebody into your "circle of trust" (Ya, I know that's a joke from Meet the Parents, but I'm being serious here), and then they betray that trust and hurt you badly. Ouch!

That's what I feel had happened to me. And all the while, I had kept my promise, continued to care for her, and continued to have dreams for our future together.

Turns out, I had been misled. She wanted a sperm donor and financial security. In hindsight, I'm questioning if she actually ever "loved" me on an deeply emotional level. I think she did on the surface. I learned a LOT in counseling. I was trying to figure out and fix things (in the typical male fashion), but she was working hard with the counselor to justify her exit from the relationship.

Now I just feel like a heel. And I wish I had avoided "buying the boat" in the first place.

No intentions to swear off women for for the rest of my life and I'm not bitter towards that half of the race, but I really don't want anything at all to do with this particular one. Bad enough we have kids and I have to deal with her a couple of times a week.

1:50 PM, June 03, 2008  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

marbel --

I know some of you guys will sneer at women's fear of losing their children, but some men do threaten it and women still fear it.


Who is this "you guys"? Reality####? Big deal.

I think if you go over the 'regulars' you will find that attitude lacking.

1:53 PM, June 03, 2008  
Blogger Vicki said...

I wonder if they asked women the same question? And why is the question gender based? I don't any male or female that would choose a bad marriage over going solo. I do, however, know a few people of both genders that married for the dumbest reasons.

2:04 PM, June 03, 2008  
Blogger Marbel said...

Who is this "you guys"? Reality####? Big deal.

That's why I said "some," my (dare I say it?) friend.

Though now that you mention it, a lot of those guys seem to have been absent lately.

2:13 PM, June 03, 2008  
Blogger Jeff said...

Anything men gain from marriage, they can gain outside marriage. Unmarried men have more reproductive, civil and procedural rights at law.

There is simply no rational reason for most men to marry.

3:19 PM, June 03, 2008  
Blogger Alex said...

BTW, I just heard a Garmin ad that made of of poor incompetent father who always gets lost. Don't buy Garmin satnav equipment. Don't reward their male-bashing.

3:31 PM, June 03, 2008  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

marbel --

I was certainly hoping you saw it that way. A way to communicate that so the guys would understand would be "Some of the dickheads who stop by here will..." I know that's more typing, but the rest of us would instantly home in. :)

3:45 PM, June 03, 2008  
Blogger serket said...

I saw this article on Yahoo also. I wonder if anyone mentioned legal reasons for the reluctance.

MSST895: Ya, I know that's a joke from Meet the Parents

I think those two movies do a good job of contrasting liberalism and conservatism.

4:01 PM, June 03, 2008  
Blogger Mercurior said...

i am still here, i took a few weeks away things to do, but am back.

In any marriage theres a risk, i think a lot of men are looking for someone to love, perhaps more than women, to have a true partner, as its in our very dna to need someone there to watch out backs, when we risk it all by finding someone, a lot of men give their everything, and i mean everything to that other person.. but for some women its never enough, they have to be a go getter, they have to change they have too.. become the person they arent to fit in with some ideal figure that some women have.

and when men cant fulfill that expectation, then its over, they have changed, or you havent changed enough..

marbel some women threaten to take a mans kids and never let them see him.. is it any better than a man saying it

4:03 PM, June 03, 2008  
Blogger Marbel said...

Oligonicella,

Some of the dickheads who stop by here will..."

Point taken. :-)

marbel some women threaten to take a mans kids and never let them see him.. is it any better than a man saying it

No, Mercurior - it's evil no matter who does it unless there are real reasons a parent should be deprived of his or her child. (And more importantly, a child deprived of a parent.) I hope I never give the impression I think it is OK for any woman or any man to do that, ever. I have seen it done, and I know it's a reason some women stay in bad marriages, that's all.

4:29 PM, June 03, 2008  
Blogger Acksiom said...

"I'd love to see that 70% divorce statistic broken down by reason."

And I in turn would love to see you break out of the traditional female paradigm of passive entitlementality and actually go dig up the actual stats your actual self.

A shocking, even radical, suggestion, I know -- but it's so crazy that it Just! Might! Work!

5:03 PM, June 03, 2008  
Blogger whiskey_199 said...

I think the dynamic is more complex.

Women in their twenties search for Mr. Big ala Sex and the City. Sure, an oversimplification, but you get the big picture.

Women in their thirties find that they can't have Mr. Big, or married him and were cheated on, or whatever. By the time they "Ladies Lower Your Standards" ala John Lovitz on SNL, they're not as desirable.

Married ones with kids by another man pretty much close the door on a man having his own family (as opposed to raising someone else's). It's pretty clear by that point anyway that the woman would have rather had the Maserati but will settle for what they see as the Hyundai. Which is not particularly well suited to a happy marriage.

IMHO men as well as women want to marry for love. Which would be both a primary requirement for a happy life-long marriage and a hedge against unpleasantness of any nasty variety (cheating, divorce, etc.). Being the last open chair in musical chairs is not a match made out of love but desperation. No wonder men would rather not be married than a woman's obvious last choice.

I'd say that the declining percentage of men marrying is directly related to delayed marriage by women on the marriage market pursuing variants of Sex and the City's Big.

5:16 PM, June 03, 2008  
Blogger Marbel said...

And I in turn would love to see you break out of the traditional female paradigm of passive entitlementality and actually go dig up the actual stats your actual self.

Did I ask you or anyone else to go find it for me?

5:18 PM, June 03, 2008  
Blogger br549 said...

marbel, some of us guys are on auto pilot.

If they were to read, or to have read, many more of your posts than they have, they'd not only back down, but apologize.

6:24 PM, June 03, 2008  
Blogger Acksiom said...

[shrug] Well, isn't that what passivists are usually implying when they announce that they'd like X to happen?

I mean, why else are you telling us what you'd love? Why should we care? What on earth makes you think we would care, let alone should be expected to?

It's almost completely irrelevant and useless knowledge to us. So why would you proclaim it if you weren't fishing to get someone else to do the work for you --

-- or, alternatively, trying to imply that men are so messed up and women so wonderful that the latter might have twice as good reason to file for divorce as the former?

Other than those reasons. . .what? Just chattering and babbling away at us? Well, hey; if you want to mark yourself out as that kind of trivial shallow vapid stereotype of femininity, by all means, be my guest.

6:28 PM, June 03, 2008  
Blogger br549 said...

Wow, jeff. I agree 100% and then some.

Hopefully for you, it is foresight, not hindsight. For me, it's the latter.

6:37 PM, June 03, 2008  
Blogger br549 said...

See what I mean?

6:39 PM, June 03, 2008  
Blogger Marbel said...

I mean, why else are you telling us what you'd love? Why should we care? What on earth makes you think we would care, let alone should be expected to?

You know, it's a conversation. I've seen that statistic given a lot and I think it'd be interesting to see what reasons are given. As for what I may or may not be implying... don't be so sure of your assumptions.

7:03 PM, June 03, 2008  
Blogger Marbel said...

br549,

some of us guys are on auto pilot.

Yeah, well, aren't we all sometimes. Thanks once again for your kind words!

7:28 PM, June 03, 2008  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

acksiom --

Um, an entire post predicated on the assumption that your view that her conversational statement is of probably no interest to us -- is of any interest to us.

Irony, thy cousin is acksiom.

7:35 PM, June 03, 2008  
Blogger GawainsGhost said...

Divorce is expensive, very expensive. For a man, you're looking at losing half your income and assets, including your house, not to mention your children, and being stuck with paying 20% or more in child support, even if none of the children are yours. It's a lose-lose situation for a man in court.

But as to why I've never married, it's very simple really. As far as the modern American girl goes, I don't need the drama. And I'd rather have the money.

7:53 PM, June 03, 2008  
Blogger whiskey_199 said...

That's also my point Gawain. Marriage used to happen in the twenties, when there was not much actual vs. potential wealth at stake, the woman was much prettier and able to have kids, the pleasures of adulthood were more common (instead of extended adolescence).

Delayed marriage = single motherhood, in one form or another. Which is socially a disaster in aggregate regardless of how well some can turn out.

8:57 PM, June 03, 2008  
Blogger Glen said...

I think that everyone would love their marriage relationship to work - as James Ray says, you will never have a successful relationship until you learn to love yourself. Check out his new book harmonic Wealth - great ideas for relationships www.harmonicwealth.com/read

12:02 AM, June 04, 2008  
Blogger serket said...

Marbel: fear that the husband will take their children away

Would this be because of custody given to the man? With women more likely to get custody, I would guess that the opposite threat is more common.

I'd love to see that 70% divorce statistic broken down by reason.

Do you think the majority are legitimate reasons or not? Based on a 70/30 breakdown it seems like men are more likely to want to work through the problems. I think marriages would last a lot longer if people knew their own values and tried finding people with similar ones. I also imagine a lot of divorces are because of shotgun marriages. It is just no longer shameful to be pregnant outside of marriage.

If your point is that some men are not good fathers or husbands, then I agree with. I am even related to a few.

2:08 PM, June 04, 2008  
Blogger Peregrine John said...

All I ask of a woman is that she shall feel gently
towards me
when my heart feels kindly towards her,
and there shall be the soft, soft tremor as of unheard
bells between us.
It is all I ask.
I am so tired of violent women lashing out
and insisting on being loved, when there is
no love in them.

- D. H. Lawrence

2:24 PM, June 04, 2008  
Blogger Cham said...

Serket:

You may have a perception challenge:

Based on a 70/30 breakdown it seems like men are more likely to want to work through the problems.

It might be interesting to find out how many husbands perceive that problems exist in those 70% of the marriages initiated by the wives.

3:26 PM, June 04, 2008  
Blogger Glen said...

What I see here is exactly what is happening in relationships worldwide - disenchantment and no joy. When they asked mother Theresa if she would come to their anti-war rally she said 'no, but when you have a march for peace, I will come'. We need to focus on the good and where we want to be, not complain about how bad things are:
'Focus on what we want rather than spending all of our time focus on what we don't want (that is often our reality) - so focus on desire not reality' - James Ray

4:54 PM, June 04, 2008  
Blogger Marbel said...

Serket,

With women more likely to get custody, I would guess that the opposite threat is more common.

Yes, it is more likely the woman would gain custody. That does not stop women from fearing it when the man threatens it. I have no doubt that men receive that threat too, probably more often than women do, and with more likelihood of it being carried out. I was just stating some reasons women stay in unhappy marriages.

If I was in that situation, I would probably not take that risk - of losing my children - even if statistically it seemed unlikely to happen. And I have known women who also were unwilling to take that risk.

Do you think the majority are legitimate reasons or not?

I don't know. That's why I'd like to see a breakdown if such was available. I've been looking around but haven't found anything. But what's a legitimate reason anyway? Opinions vary widely on that.

If your point is that some men are not good fathers or husbands...

I wasn't trying to make that point and I am sorry if it seemed like I did. There are plenty of people who are behaving badly in their marriages and to their children. I know of plenty of both sexes.

5:35 PM, June 04, 2008  
Blogger Acksiom said...

Nooooo, Olli dear; irony's cousin would only be Acksiom if your assertion about my post were correct.

And since 'twasn't, I'se isn't.

7:19 PM, June 04, 2008  
Blogger br549 said...

Either parent can suck. Sometimes they both suck at the same time.

Either spouse who threatens the other using the kids as weapons is pond scum. They certainly aren't thinking about the kids.

8:27 PM, June 04, 2008  
Blogger Mercurior said...

ok marbel, you want a list of reasons


http://www.divorceguide.com/overview/the-top-10-reasons-for-divorce.html


http://www.articlesdepo.com/divorce/5773.php

According to the Center for Disease Control's National Vital Statistics Report of 2002, 50% of first marriages ended in divorce and 60% of remarriages end in divorce. But, the Center for Disease Control also found that 96% of Americans express a personal desire for marriage, and almost three-quarters of Americans believe marriage is a life long commitment. I imagine that there are somewhat similar statistics worldwide.

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/common-causes-and-reasons-for-divorce.html

The National Center for Health Statistics reports that from 1975 to 1988 in the US, in families with children present, wives file for divorce in approximately two-thirds of cases. In 1975, 71.4% of the cases were filed by women, and in 1988, 65% were filed by women.[11]

According to a study published in the American Law and Economics Review, women currently file slightly more than two-thirds of divorce cases in the US.[12] There is some variation among states, and the numbers have also varied over time, with about 60% of filings by women in most of the 19th century, and over 70% by women in some states just after no-fault divorce was introduced, according to the paper. Evidence is given that among college-educated couples, the percentages of divorces initiated by women is approximately 90%

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/mvsr/supp/mv39_12s2.pdf

Brinig, Margaret; Douglas W. Allen (2000). "These Boots Are Made for Walking: Why Most Divorce Filers are Women". American Law and Economics Review 2 (1): 126-129.

and more here

http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/marr-div.html

6:00 AM, June 05, 2008  
Blogger Mercurior said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

6:02 AM, June 05, 2008  
Blogger Mercurior said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

6:04 AM, June 05, 2008  
Blogger br549 said...

Perhaps then, mercutior, that is why a lot of the female population is democrat.

Democrats are famous for doing exactly what they accuse others of. In plain sight.

Educated women can take care of themselves, and don't need to be married. If the marriage isn't their idea of picture perfect, they bail out. Consequences of those actions are much less severe for the female in court.

Not so for a male.

If an uneducated woman finds herself in a marriage that is less than her idea of picture perfect, they too can bail out. They can end up with half of the proceeds at the gate, and then get paid on a monthly basis from the ex.

The real answer for men is DO NOT marry. The odds are so far against it, that it is a no brainer. The ongoing theme that is always bubbling to the surface, is just that. Don't do it. The message is getting out, is clear as a bell - all things considered.

Women will have to take care of themselves. They will learn the true meaning of "have to". They will learn life is not "I, me, mine", unless of course, you are winning your own bacon, and there is no one else dependent on you for their needs.

And happiness? That is ones own responsibility, and is not in the contract. If one has no idea what happiness is, and does not experience it single - getting married will not make it happen.
To defer ones happiness to being the responsibility of ones spouse is childish, selfish, and doomed.

6:59 AM, June 05, 2008  
Blogger Marbel said...

Mercurior, thanks for all this. Interesting reading indeed. Some of them I had come across. What I am hoping to find (maybe does not exist) are statistics: out of that 70%, what % is infidelity (a commonly cited cause) and, whose infidelity. I'd seen somewhere that abuse or violence is rarely cited although it appears on the lists of common causes. So I'd be interested in the %.

The last on your list (American Law and Economics Review) looks most promising and I will look into that, but I wanted to acknowledge your post and thank you in case I can't get to it today.

7:45 AM, June 05, 2008  
Blogger Mercurior said...

i am a research maniac ;-).. the CDC may have the breakdown.. i didnt have time to look deeper.. i apologise for that;-).

2:02 PM, June 05, 2008  
Blogger Acksiom said...

[sigh]

The problem is, statistical breakdowns by "reason" will still only provide what people claim to be the reasons for their divorces. And lot of those will be outright lies, in no small part due to the femelitist DV industry's promotion of false accusations against men.

Many of the others will be rationalizations; add in the false rape claim rate of around 50% and the estimated paternity fraud rate of around 10% overall -- 'happy' marriages included -- and the percentage of dishonest people, regardless of gender, who are willing to lie and deceive to their own benefit, and such 'breakdowns' are almost certainly going to end up being just either tabloid journalism or femelitist propaganda masquerading as actual reliable useful research.

You're right to be interested in the Brining-Allen paper, therefore, since "There are three basic reasons people file for divorce they say: (1) to stop being exploited within the marriage, (2) to exploit the other spouse by running off with marital investments, or (3) to establish custody over children. . . .

After analyzing 21 wide-ranging variables, the Brinig-Allen study concludes that the person who anticipates gaining custody of the children is the one most likely to file for divorce."



RTWT. There's also links to the actual research paper on the Fathers for Life Divorce Issues Main Page.

5:19 PM, June 05, 2008  
Blogger Joe said...

One interesting factor affecting both men and women is the desire to not have children. In religiously conservative parts of the country, this is anathema for married couples. Elsewhere, it's still regarded with deep suspicion.

* * *

Another related factor to the fear of a bad marriage are several people I know who got seriously burned in a relationship and are very jaded about opening themselves up again emotionally.

6:03 PM, June 05, 2008  
Blogger Marbel said...

Acksiom, thanks for those links.

The problem is, statistical breakdowns by "reason" will still only provide what people claim to be the reasons for their divorces.

Yeah, I was thinking about that too.

I found this statistic (among others) particularly interesting:

In 25% of marriage breakdowns, she adds, men have "no clue" there is a problem until the woman tells them they want out.

But this is encouraging (from the link above):

...divorce rates are plunging in states where courts typically award custody of children to both parents.

I don't know if that means people are working things out, or just gritting their teeth and staying married to avoid losing their children. I hope it's the former.

9:28 PM, June 05, 2008  
Blogger Acksiom said...

Actually, I suspect Brinig & Allen's analysis errs in separating children from other marital 'assets'.

In that sense, there are really only two main reasons: to stop being exploited within the marriage, or to exploit the other spouse by gaining superior control over marital investments, particularly the children. . . .

BTW, your last contrast isn't much of one. Just gritting your teeth and staying married to avoid losing the children is one way of working it out. It even used to be one of the default standards.

My own father did it for years, until he simply could not take any more abuse. Fortunately I was in my teens by then and had enough independence of mind to be able to likewise simply ignore the court's determinations and go live with him regardless. It's not like they could have stopped me, and it's not like there were 'two sides to the story'; she was an incredibly abusive alcoholic. Once when I was about eleven or twelve she forced me to lie down on the grimy, filthy, sticky floor of a movie theater and then put her foot on my neck to keep me there because, and I quote, she was "ashamed to be seen with me."

And I'm right to blame feminism in her case in specific and society in general. In her case because I've read her journals and they're filled with feminist self-pitying victimization myths, and in society's case because feminism's proponents have made it quite clear through their actions that it is an ideology devoted to institutionalizing the prioritization of women's interests over those of men AND CHILDREN.

The other point of the anecdotal sidebar above is to exemplify how it is in fact men who would be far, far more gritting their teeth and staying married to avoid losing their children than women. The fact that some women fear it too really doesn't matter much in comparison to the facts of the ratio of custody awards by parental gender, and the consistent reports of virtually no legal enforcement of visitation orders or recourse for non-custodial parents OR THEIR CHILDREN being denied what little visitation they've been 'allowed'. Because denial of visitation doesn't just defraud the other parent; it defrauds the children as well, and the State is supposed to be compelled to intervene on their behalf. . .yet consistently, according to reports, does virtually nothing for them in this regard.

I intensely dislike that kind of grossly misrepresentatory false equivalency, whether done more out of chauvanistically deliberate deception or through just plain ignorant incompetence. The relative importance of the fact that 'some women fear being losing their children too' simply doesn't compare meaningfully to the facts -- and numbers -- of what's actually being done to fathers AND CHILDREN, and pointing the first out as though it means anything relevant serves almost exclusively to degrade the importance of the latter.

It's a common feminist rhetorical trick, though, because, also in no small part, and to repeat the observation, feminism is about institutionalizing the prioritization of women's interests over those of men AND CHILDREN -- and so misrepresentations that artificially and falsely inflate women's status as victims at the expense of men and children are not just merely 'okay' but are in fact to be actively promoted, legitimized, and normalized.

And I choose to be righteously enraged at that kind of behavior.

11:07 PM, June 05, 2008  
Blogger Marbel said...

The relative importance of the fact that 'some women fear being losing their children too' simply doesn't compare meaningfully to the facts -- and numbers -- of what's actually being done to fathers AND CHILDREN, and pointing the first out as though it means anything relevant serves almost exclusively to degrade the importance of the latter.

I can understand why you feel this way. I also understand that this is done to men more often than to women, I'm not trying to diminish or trivialize it. (I guess I brought it up in the first place, just as part of a list of reasons women stay in unhappy marriages.) It's lousy (for lack of a better word) that more women - or I should say, more women to whom people listen - don't realize the harm this is doing to everyone. Evil is evil no matter who perpetrates it; it shouldn't be a man vs. woman thing.

7:37 AM, June 06, 2008  
Blogger Marbel said...

Mercurior,

i am a research maniac ;-)..

:-) My husband is the same way. So you'd think I'd know better than to say "I'd like to know..." in a roomful of research geeks. (That's a compliment, gentlemen.)

9:10 AM, June 06, 2008  
Blogger serket said...

Acksiom: BTW, your last contrast isn't much of one. Just gritting your teeth and staying married to avoid losing the children is one way of working it out. It even used to be one of the default standards.

In one situation you downplay the problems and try to stay together anyway, in the other situation the two partners actually strive to change behaviors so that the problems go away.

1:11 PM, June 06, 2008  
Blogger br549 said...

acksiom:

The reason I stayed as long as I did in my own marriage was because it was the only way I could PROTECT my children. If I were not there at all, I don't want to think about what could have happened. But, yeah. Comes a time.

I am fully aware I am very lucky, and in a very rare scenario where I ended up (thank God) with my kids. For their sake.

The icing on the cake for me, was the fact it is a blast being a dad.
"I love you, daddy" melts me like a crayon over an open flame every time.

8:14 PM, June 06, 2008  
Blogger br549 said...

By the way, and this goes out to everyone, including jeff.

I have been a real poop head lately. Things have been going on in my life that have Well never mind.

I wish to openly and sincerely apologize to everyone and anyone who I may have offended lately.

Right now, I love everybody.

So don't screw it up. (humor alert for those of you in Rio Linda)

8:20 PM, June 06, 2008  
Blogger br549 said...

Is it me, or is Matt Drudge taking a sharp left hand turn as of late?

10:34 AM, June 07, 2008  
Blogger River Cocytus said...

As a 20-something, it's mostly just hard to find a woman interested in you. Some you can't 'catch' because you have to basically be involved in their life's career path in order to be around them long enough to build a relationship. Those my age who are not in relationships are not because they are too busy doing other stuff -school, career, activism, missions, etc. The others I don't know - there is only so 'different' I can be before I'm being false and misleading - being someone that I really can't be except in rare circumstances.

At 25 I've had two relationships, each about 3 months. The first was when I was 18, and the second when I was 20.

I hope that I'm not typical, and besides I don't do a lot of specific future planning. (I save money and learn skills, but I don't pretend to know where I will be for certain.

I've always thought of it as a journey you take together, but everyone I meet is going the other way, or staying put. I wonder if it is so much to ask for a person to recognize the uncertainty of the future, and to simply know that 'a cord of three strands is not easily broken'

On the upside, I could always become a monk.

11:04 AM, June 10, 2008  
Blogger Dark Eden said...

Why are American Men so reluctant to marry?

American Women.

1:43 PM, June 13, 2008  
Blogger Jude said...

I'm solo and I have my own reasons. Too many friends have been devastated by their X'es The laws are one sided from what I've seen. Too many horror stories. Marriage not worth the hassle.

5:37 AM, June 14, 2008  
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