John Hawkins at Right Wing News has an interesting post on conservative female bloggers and dating.
posted by Helen at 2:18 PM
Monday, March 31, 2008
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29 Comments:
Those conservative women were all about "chivalry." One even equated "paying" for a date with being a "gentleman." What a bitch.
Apparently, even conservative American women suck. It's a wrap: all American women suck.
Look to more traditional cultures. Find women still think they have to GIVE something, too. You won't find that at Right Wing News.
I had a different reaction. They seemed thoughtful and solid to me.
Trey
I think that it just would simply be difficult to date someone who holds differing views of any sort - political, religious or whatever. I wouldn’t want to date someone that I was constantly debating and arguing with. It would be way too stressful.
As for the snark at women who appreciate “old-fashioned gentlemen” you can count me in on that one too. Maybe I am just lucky, but my doors are held, my dinners are paid for and movie tickets bought by a wonderful guy (and at his insistence) that also thinks that my brain is top notch, celebrates my strengths and independence, and respects me for who I am. The best of both worlds, if you ask me. But then, I am not a snarling, angry, man-hating (and woman-hating) modern day feminist … I like being female and I like men being male. Viva la difference!
Jeff,
I can understand where you're coming from but do you think all American women really "suck" because you didn't like what a few of them had to say at RWN?
I thought, like Trey, that the women seemed a bit thoughtful, although I was a little dismayed to see them writing off liberal men so quickly. My feeling about dating is, be open to everyone, you never know who might turn out to be a lot different than one expects. Once you start knocking everyone off your list, it makes it harder.
I think Jeff did hit on something there, if he went too far with it. Too often, women like to pretend that they're classy ladies, when in fact they are just well-dressed women putting on airs. In fact, for the life of me, I can't remember ever meeting a woman who self-identifies as a "real lady" who was something less than the exact opposite.
Conservative women are indeed good at talking the talk about tradition, but generally suck at following through. I wonder how many of these conservative women would actually respect the full meaning of their husband being the head of household? That means that his vote is the tie-breaking vote when things reach an impasse. He's got the responsibility and the authority for the household.
Personally, I think a man should never even consider marrying a woman who won't let him be head of household. Why take on the responsibility that she will inevitably put in your lap when she won't give you the authority that is supposed to go along with the responsibility? I also think that a woman who marries a man who is content with just being a partner, rather than head of household, deserves what she gets when times get tough and he won't take a leadership position to get his family through tough times.
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MikeT,
How about both partners have authority? Is that really too much to ask? I hear what you're saying--that women talk a good game and take goodies when they want them and then usurp the guy's authority when it is convenient. That is a hypocritical strategy. However, what about both partners taking responsibility, helping each other out depending on what is needed? Sometimes, it is the wife who needs the authority in a situation and sometimes the husband depending on the circumstances.
Helen,
And what happens when they have a disagreement that they cannot compromise on? The traditional model of marriage, which many conservative women say that they want, requires them to ultimately submit to their husband's decision unless it is immoral or suicidal in some fashion for the family. Therein lays the problem for many of these women. They want all of the goodies like a husband who will love them and provide for them, but they don't want to have to actually give up any power in the relationship.
It's not that a wife should lose all authority in her household, it's that she cannot be the final word in a traditional marriage. If she wants a non-traditional relationship, that's fine, but she had better be prepared to deal with the consequences like her husband actually expecting her to take real responsibility for things along with him. This is a disaster most of the time because if there is one thing most women have an extremely hard time dealing with, it's taking responsibility for things that don't have a high probability of turning out well for them.
Personally, I just advocate that non-religious men keeping dating and not marry. Given the rate of divorce, and the fact that they have no strong reason other than peer pressure to get married, why do something you know is statistically probable to cause you financial hardship? Jeff has a point, after a fashion. Would anyone invest in a stock or commodity that has the liabilities over time that marriage in America does?
I know this is about dating, but conservative women usually end up taking it down that route anyway, so I figure it's worth getting out of the way.
MikeT is a absolutely right. If one is going to proudly call themselves "conservative" then one can't necessarily pick and choose what parts of conservative they like, and which parts don't suit their desire. You either are or you aren't.
Cham,
That's kind of dumb. Why does one have to follow a party line hook, line and sinker? For example, you have said a number of times on this blog that you are a liberal Democrat. However, some (a bit) of what you say sounds like a libertarian, e.g. personal responsibility, not wanting to pay for other people's expenses etc. Do only conservatives have to follow strict party lines? If so, why? I agree with some of what conservatives think, e.g. free markets, fiscally conservative and somewhat of what liberals think, pro-choice (to a degree) socially liberal etc. I am only called a conservative, for the most part because I do not buy into what I see as the bad parts of liberalism--the political correctness, identity politics. Why should I? And if you call yourself a liberal, why are you yourself not following the all the parts of liberalism, since this is what you say that conservatives should do?
You don't know much about being a liberal. Being a liberal does not advocate government picking up the tab and being reponsible for everyone and everything. The Republican party and the conservative media recently have skewered and twisted the definition of liberalism to turn people against the platform and make liberals into the enemy of the people.
Read the responses that those women said in the interview. I would have let them off the hook for their pick and choose policy if they didn't repeatedly say they were conservatives and had conservative values. If you have conservative values then you should be buying into the idea of conservative and traditional marriage and dating.
Of course, we don't go on dates with these ladies. They may be more than happy to submit control of their lives to their husbands once they marry. If so, more power to them.
Helen,
It's a matter of principle. Too often these women will pick and choose what they want based entirely on convenience. It's convenient for them to get their significant other to be a traditional provider, but it's inconvenient for them to talk about the traditional role for a woman. They want to be able to have their cake and eat it too. I'm surprised that you of all people would not quickly see that that is precisely what many of them are trying to do.
For secular and religious conservative men, handing a copy of Ephesians 5 over to a potential spouse would be an eye-opening experience. If she agrees with it, then the marriage has a chance.
Cham wrote: "Being a liberal does not advocate government picking up the tab and being reponsible for everyone and everything."
Cham, I think you are quoting history rather than contemporary liberal philosophy. There are some youtube clips of Senator Lieberman talking about how the Democratic party has changed. In these clips he is lamenting the socialist transformation of that party.
Trey
Cham,
I think your description is more what a "classical liberal" used to be. Pay attention, as Trey notes, the Democratic Party has changed.
Then call me a classical liberal cause that is what I am.
I am one of those religious folks in a semi-traditional marriage. For five years, my wife was able to stay home with our little children. I worked outside the home, and she took care of the kids and the home. In that division of labor, I worked too hard at the office, and she worked too hard at home! She runs the finances because she is much better at that than I. We ask each other about major financial expenditures.
Now she is going back to work for pay and I will have to pick up the housework end of things. That is only fair. In terms of submission to me, that is her concern, not mine.
We love each other and made a good choice in getting married, so we rarely argue and hardly ever fight. I have never asked her to be submissive to me because that is not my business, it is hers.
Because of my Biblical admonition, loving her like I do myself, I listen to her requests and needs and respond to them. When we disagree, we state our opinions. Loving her is a full time job, and I do not think that I have time and energy to do that while making sure that she submits to me.
Just my take on things, kind of a personal responsibility approach Evangelical style.
Trey
Cham,
Libertarians are often interchangeble with classical liberals, although that is disputed by some:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism
My 85 year old grandmother had voted democrat her entire life until 2004, when she realized she was no longer voting for FDR and JFK and voted against her life-long party for the first time.
Classic liberalism is a great ideology. Modern liberalism is just another name for socialism. (and this is not an argument on behalf of conservatism.)
Good reads: Parts 1 and 2 of what happened to a once great ideology.
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/DennisPrager/2003/08/12/what_makes_a_liberal
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/DennisPrager/2003/08/19/what_makes_a_liberal_part_ii
Well, to me, this entire discussion is ridiculous. The doctrine of presumptive paternity, which is an integral part of the marriage contract, renders any and all thought of a woman being the head of a house moot.
A man is responsible for paying child support for every child he conceives. But a husband is responsible for paying child support for not only every child he conceives, but also for every child his wife conceives, even if none of those children are his.
A woman is not held responsible for paying child support for every child she conceives, since she has the biological father or her husband to pay that expense for her. A woman certainly is not, and never will be, held responsible for paying child support for every child her husband, or any other man, conceives, especially when the child is not hers.
Who is responsible for whom?
It's a simple question that cuts to the heart of the matter. And the answer is?
A man is responsible for himself and every child he and/or his wife conceives. A woman is not.
This renders any thought of a woman being the head of a house, or even an equal voice at the head of a household, asinine at best and irrelevant in the reality of the law.
And what is the modern American girl going to do about that? Whine and complain? Yeah. That's what conceited, spoiled, stupid little girls do when confronted with reality, they whine and complain. That's all they're capable of doing. They certainly aren't capable of conforming their behavior to the rule of law, as a man is required to do.
Bottom line: She isn't worth the waste of a man's time, attention or money.
And if she intends to do something about that, she can dump her attitude, mind her mouth and mind her manners, and comport herself as a woman who knows, understands and respects the responsibility a man takes on for her.
Otherwise, she can dry up and wrinkle like the failed woman she is, while whining and complaining about men the whole time.
Well *that's* a buzzkill. ;)
At risk of being marked as a romantic fool (wouldn't be the first time), mark me with lissakay -- for the right woman, it's wonderful fun to fuss over her and pamper her. I don't open the car door for my bride of 28 years because she's the "weaker sex;" I do it because she's the most important thing in my life, and because I am favored with a kiss. (Yes, she owns me. ;)
See once again Stanley's "The Millionaire Mind," the chapter on "Choice of Spouse," and the five characteristics of a successful relationship.
I would argue that the most successful long-term relationships are also ones in which both partners essentially see eye to eye; as both bloggers and commenters have noted, it's difficult to have a successful long-term relationship when you don't agree on foundational principles. My bride and I "have each other's back," and each can be confident a knife won't be stuck there.
And as to who holds the reins in the household, the joke in our house is "I may be the captain of the ship, but we all know who the admiral is." ;)
@scott: I was going to make some comment about who controls the seamen...but never mind.
Nothing wrong with political differences - the real factor is how sensitive either person is about politics. Some people are cool; others are always looking for something to be outraged about. There's no dealing with the latter if you happen to disagree with them.
Maybe one thing that helps is being able to ask yourselves "How important is this political issue compared to our relationship?" If you're just dating, maybe the politics matters more. If you're in love, maybe not so much. If you can't even imagine asking the question, then you definitely should be dating within your own species.
@bugs: Rotfl - that should be obvious. ;)
I think it is interesting that a few of them mentioned that they don't like overconfident guys. It seems the popular belief is the opposite of that. Out of those six I think Michelle Oddis and Cassy Fiano are the best looking. I think it is interesting that Cassy says guys shouldn't wear T-shirts on a date and she is wearing a tank top in her picture!
Serket, men that date should be confident but not too confident. The proper confidence ratio for men on April 1, 2008 is 56.768%. For women it's 34.294%. Tomorrow it will be different. Try to keep up. ;)
Yucch
Reading all these inane, childish, self-centered, male-bashing responses from these 'conservative women" makes any normal man want to take a bath.
Its all about them-- their expectations, their demands, their criteria, their hoops to jump through, their male-bashing ( no man knows how to groom... )
Who is dating these women ?
Why ?
From the pictures posted, it certainly isn't because of their looks.
The mistake is believing "conservative" women are somehow more male-friendly. Nope-- most just have a different idea of what is in female self-interest-- and they pursue their self-interest at men's expense the same way feminists do.
Well, reptile, I guess some of us would rather be taken for everything we got by a someone who shares our values. It takes too much energy to get fleeced and defend your position on the Second Amendment simultaneously.
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