Saturday, May 05, 2007

"When you get outside of New York City, there is a whole other world out there.”

So says the publisher of a new magazine, Garden & Gun, when explaining that there are 40 million people outside of New York City who enjoy hunting and fishing. The magazine just came out in April right before the Virginia Tech shooting and the title has caused a bit of a stir, according to an article in The New York Times. I think this is true, given that I learned about the magazine from a local book club here in Knoxville whose members seemed perplexed about the title of the new magazine, but not in a negative way.

I guess people don't think that guns and gardens should go together or maybe those who like gardens are not supposed to like guns? That seems silly. The usage of the word gun in the title is a metaphor for the sporting life and once you get out of New York, there are many people who enjoy this lifestyle. Why shouldn't there be a magazine that reflects the hobbies of those who both hunt and enjoy gardening and nature? Afterall, the two are not mutually exclusive.

123 Comments:

Anonymous Bugs said...

There's a whole category of hunting weapons specialized for shooting "varmints" - animals who destroy crops and livestock. Mostly long-range rifles because varmints are wary and agile. Also small-caliber because big bullets tend to vaporize small bunnies.

You might think that praying to Gaia or waving rainbow-colored flags would be enough to keep inconsiderate Furry-Americans out of the back forty. Shooting them is less time-consuming and more fun.

Writers for the Times can also be considered varmints because of the damage they do to reason and common sense, but hunting them is illegal in most states.

12:56 PM, May 05, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, Bugs, does that make you a "wascally wabbit?" At least wabbits wun away, but those malicious moles and grumpy gophers just tunnel through the tulips and squish the squash!

Still, dead bunnies don't add much to the aesthetics of the garden, so skin 'em and stew 'em after you blast 'em, please! We gun-totin' gardeners eat our kill, whether it's wabbits or bwussels spwouts!

1:56 PM, May 05, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Also, I think those that grow up hunting or in the sporting culture have much much more respect for guns, and animal life than those who fear guns or see them as toys or lifestyle accessories.

You learn things like tracking the animal you've wounded to put it out of misery, and respecting the land where you hunt. Farmers and hunters are the earliest conservationists, and it's a shame that the trendy environmental movement doesn't acknowledge their early efforts to protect open land for the animals and to have always have future hunting grounds.

In Wisconsin, a few years back, a Constitutional Amendment protecting citizen's right to hunt was passed because of fear that those who think they're helping the animals/land might one day take away that right.

Thanks for the tip. We'll check out the magazine here.

1:58 PM, May 05, 2007  
Anonymous Bugs said...

If anybody asks, tell 'em it's Duck Season.

Not sure how it evolved, but it seems like today everything one does is everybody else's business. How often does a New York Times reporter have to actually deal with someone who likes gardening and guns? How is that reporter's life affected, in practical terms, by someone in Bedford, PA tilling a plot in the summer and shooting a deer in the winter? Yet this pencil-head still has something to say about it.

It would take a brave New York Times reporter to write "I don't care" or "Not my problem" or "None of my business" or "Live and let live" about...well, anything. After all, if a commentator doesn't care about gardening and guns, then maybe he doesn't care about abortion rights, immigration reform, female genital mutilation, or the slave trade either. Smart people are required to have opinions about everything, no matter how trivial.

Get used to it: These days, everything you do is somebody else's business.

3:18 PM, May 05, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

These days, everything you do is somebody else's business.

Not necessarily.

And of course anyone's opinions end at any part of my body, life, or property. If you don't stand up to that kind of ignorant nonsense it will continue.

3:37 PM, May 05, 2007  
Blogger Dave F said...

I'm a life long New Yorker. Found myself in a conversation the other day with that quintessential New Yorker, a theatrical producer.

Producer: "Can you believe all these gun people?"

Me: "What gun people?"

Producer: "All these gun people, in like, Indiana."

Me, ignoring the notion that "Indiana" as proxy for the whole of the United States is laughably ignorant: "Can I believe what about them?"

Producer: "That they still want to shoot guns."

Me: "What else would they do with them?"

Producer: "Well, you know, they should get a regular job."

Because producing plays on Broadway constitutes a "regular job." Yes, the insularity of New York is legion, perhaps best demonstrated by the apocryphal quote attributed to Pauline Kael, about how she couldn't believe anyone would vote for Nixon.

3:40 PM, May 05, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Dave f.,

There's nothing wrong with hunting a predator-less species like whitetail deer to keep the herd culled to a size the environment can support!

But don't overlook the central fact about guns. "What else would they do with them?" you say.

Nothing else. Guns are only good for killing something that isn't dead yet. (Target shooting is fun, but it's symbolic of the true purpose of guns & just makes us better at it.)

Killing animals is not innately good or bad; it depends on why you do it. Do it for food or for the good of the species, not because it's just cool to see their bodies explode--just because you can. That's a bit hinky! (In my humble opinion.)

3:51 PM, May 05, 2007  
Blogger Dogwood said...

At least he knows Indiana exists, count this Hoosier impressed with that little fact.

But then he lost me when he implied all we do is shoot guns. I mean, of course we work, how else could we buy the ammo?

Work. Get paid. Buy guns and ammo. Shoot critters. Bury what we don't eat in the garden to fertilize the veggies. Go to bed. Repeat in the morning.

Ah, if only life were that simple.

3:58 PM, May 05, 2007  
Blogger Dave said...

I'll start paying attention to New York Times again just as soon as they start acknowledging my Second Amendment Rights as much as they do abortion rights (which, oddly enough, doesn't seem to have an Amendment of its own.)

I don't see why you can't have both, even though one would obviously seem to have preceded the other.

4:02 PM, May 05, 2007  
Anonymous ED said...

Garden & Guns does sound like it could be a pretty interesting magazine.

But the knee-jerk criticism of The New York Times and its reporters (and New York City itself for that matter) seems beneath you all.
Live and let live!

4:29 PM, May 05, 2007  
Anonymous Chuck Pelto said...

TO: Dr. Helen
RE: Do We...

....get a free album of Guns & Roses?

Oddly enough, we've got a garden club and some its members are part of a women's pistol organization. The club flower is the Petunia. We're trying to work up a logo for Pistol Packing Petunias.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[These wild flowers are 'killers'!]

4:31 PM, May 05, 2007  
Anonymous Bugs said...

anonymous 3:51 - At least you acknowledge your opinion is your own and it is humble. I doubt that our hypothetical New Yorker would do that.

I guess my question is, why should the New Yorker care if a guy living a thousand miles from him likes to hinkily shoot little animals for sport? Is the idea that someone, somewhere in the world might be doing something he disapproves of too much for him to live with?

4:39 PM, May 05, 2007  
Anonymous Bugs said...

ed: So far I haven't found anything that's beneath me. I'm still looking, though. ;-)

4:43 PM, May 05, 2007  
Blogger rightwingprof said...

"When you get outside of New York City, there is a whole other world out there.”

I can't get past that. How arrogant and insular can you get?

5:00 PM, May 05, 2007  
Blogger rightwingprof said...

"All these gun people, in like, Indiana."

Hey, I resemble that remark! Er, I did for thirty-some years. I'm in Pennsylvania now.

5:04 PM, May 05, 2007  
Blogger George said...

This is one of the most handsome new magazines out there. It's for the out-of-sight Southern landed gentry. If that ain't you, the publishers could care less.

The articles in the first issue are written by the South's premier writers...Pat Conroy, David Foster Wallace...etc. The design is clean and smart. The photography sharp.

It's not at all a 'Guns & Ammo' rag. It's for folks who own Lear jets. Plural.

5:06 PM, May 05, 2007  
Blogger ricpic said...

Slightly off topic: is there any way to keep deer away short of shooting them? They're chomping down everything coming up in my gardens. And I don't want to fence the gardens because they're flower gardens. TIA.

5:35 PM, May 05, 2007  
Anonymous TurkeyO said...

I live in New York City and volunteer in my local garden (a memorial garden for a PA cop who died on 9/11) and I shoot guns. Thing is, all the people I shoot guns with know I work in a garden, cultivating flowers; they're fine with it. I'm very reluctant to tell my fellow volunteer gardeners that I'm a shooter. They're a tad prejudiced when it comes to that sort of thing.

5:37 PM, May 05, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Just as Calcutta is not representitive of India and Tokyo isn't Japan or London isn't all that is England, New York City is not anything that resembles America. Just like other huge metropolitan areas it's a shiny, noisy bauble that is fascinating to look at. But we should no more pay attention to it for advice and direction than we do a Magic 8-Ball (tm). The sad part is that there are people who listen to both.

5:41 PM, May 05, 2007  
Anonymous Chuck Pelto said...

TO: rightwingprof
RE: [OT] The World Unperceived

" 'When you get outside of New York City, there is a whole other world out there.'

I can't get past that. How arrogant and insular can you get?" -- rightwingprof

That's why I'm a big supporter of the idea of Universal Service.

Get 'kids', i.e., graduated high-schoolers, AWAY from their little world and into the great BIG world beyond the town limits.

There's much more to the concept, but it's too lengthy to discuss here.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Ever man thinks poorly of himself for never having been a soldier, or a sailor with hard duty at sea.]

5:42 PM, May 05, 2007  
Blogger Dogwood said...

RicPic,

Google "keeping deer out of the garden" and click the first two links for some ideas.

Most people around here shoot or fence, so I can't testify to the effectiveness of the ideas in the articles.

Good luck.

5:43 PM, May 05, 2007  
Anonymous Chuck Pelto said...

TO: ricpic
RE: The Deer Ones

"Slightly off topic: is there any way to keep deer away short of shooting them?" -- ricpic

You might consider using X10 technology to (1) detect their presence and (2) activate offensive measures against them.

Check out discussions at www.shed.com. There's a search of archived discussion. Search on "deer".

I know someone used that to drive off cranes and geese. The cranes were after fish in a pond. The geese were just making a mess.

Detection, via Passive Infra-Red (PIR) sensors, activated high-pressure pulse sprinklers that would sweep the area with jets of water, making the birds leave.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

5:47 PM, May 05, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Try deer repellant. It's a scent they apparently avoid.

For rabbits, bed your plants with human hair.

Don't bother fencing the garden as deer leap, of course.

If all else fails, check out The Yearling, where Jody's ma had to shoot* his pet fawn to save the crops. Sometimes, just has to be done :)

*Course nowadays you can't shoot out of season, so spend a little money on the repellant?

6:07 PM, May 05, 2007  
Anonymous CaptDMO said...

""Slightly off topic: is there any way to keep deer away short of shooting them?" -- ricpic"
Raise jaguars.

I can certainly understand the confusion with the juxtaposition
of Guns and Gardens by anyone raised
where meat, vegtables, footwear, and clothing come from.."the store" and labor is done.."at the office".

6:14 PM, May 05, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Utter nonsense,. I am a leftwinger and have lived in NY...I have no objection to people owning guns, but when anyone can get them and they are military style, then things get out of hand.
Why is it that the Armyh does not give live ammpo to its soldiers when they are in camps in the US? Why do the cops have to get new weapons simply because the bad guys can outgun them with the weapons they can buy with ease?

You gun people always cite the instance now and then when a crime is stopped by a gun owenr. Check out how many people were killed just this month by guns, most of them illegal. But you won't post that sort of figure. I have no doubt that you are a responsible gun owner. And your friends too. But there are many many out there that ought not be allowed to have guns. Period.

6:25 PM, May 05, 2007  
Blogger Dogwood said...

*Course nowadays you can't shoot out of season, so spend a little money on the repellant?


Indiana's Department of Natural Resources, and most other states, will issue depradation permits allowing land owners to take game out of season if the game are causing extensive damage to the property or crops.

If harvesting the deer becomes your only option, then check with your state's respective department.

6:48 PM, May 05, 2007  
Anonymous triticale said...

Anonyous 6:14, very few guns are illegal in the real word outside NY. Only those which have had the serial nuber removed and those which fall into NFA Class III (machine guns and short-barrelled rifles and shotguns) and are not properly registered. Other than that, a gun can no more be illegal than a mirror can.

Of that minority of firearm fatalities which are not suicides, many are committed by criminals who obtained their guns outside the law. The answer to that is criminal control.

6:54 PM, May 05, 2007  
Anonymous Acksiom said...

Well, the thing is, Anoynmous 6:25, as of the 2004 stats, there are almost half again as many gun suicides as homicides.

That is, for every 2 people killed with a gun by someone else, almost 3 people committed suicide with a gun.

So if you're all that concerned about the preservation of human life and the prevention of tragedies, why exactly are you here criticizing us when you could be doing something something really meaningful and productive about outreach towards the suicidal, instead?

Such outreach might even have a beneficial side effect against criminal behavior, as well.

6:59 PM, May 05, 2007  
Anonymous willbdone said...

That magazine title seems a clever way of trying to attract folks by combining both male and female dominated hobbies. I would be interested to know the stats on that...It could end up being one of the rare magazine that husbands and wives actully look forward to sharing...lol

Though we would enjoy company, our local garden club is 100% those of the female persuasion....

7:08 PM, May 05, 2007  
Anonymous comatus said...

You know there really is such a thing as a "garden gun"? It's a smoothbore 22-caliber shotgun, designed to be safe to use in close quarters dealing with small-farm pests. Also works on great big carpenter bees.

7:45 PM, May 05, 2007  
Blogger ricpic said...

Thanks all for your suggestions. Deer repellent makes sense.

7:47 PM, May 05, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You're quite welcome!

8:06 PM, May 05, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

dogwood--

I'm assuming that special permit applies only to farmers, or those with large tracts of land?

Allowing an out-of-season shoot for residential gardens just wouldn't be allowed here (nor would poison for obvious reasons), no matter how many times you'd planted and woke up to found them munched. Safety first.

8:09 PM, May 05, 2007  
Blogger Dogwood said...

Farmers receive the most permits, but its not unusual for someone whose property has been over run with deer to receive an occasional permit.

Obviously, if you live in a subdivision on the edge of town, then you're out of luck.

But, if you live in the country and the deer have destroyed everything green in your yard, then call and ask for a permit. The worst they can do is say no.

8:48 PM, May 05, 2007  
Anonymous JKB said...

Well, for those New Yorkers who don't seem to know that there is a big wild world across the river, south of Delaware Bay there is a free world not covered by street lights. In fact many of us like our gardens as nature arranges them. I believe they are known as woods, timber, etc. Now in that garden there are other members of nature that a gun comes in handy for extremis encounters. When you come upon a copperhead or timber rattler, a gun is useful to ensure you survive. It is also good to have just in case you and the bear can't come to a mutual understanding on a trail encounter. You see a bear has claws, a gun gives you a fighting chance. Of course, just because you have a gun doesn't mean you use it. In most encounters, you go around the snake and come to a passing arrangement with the bear.

8:52 PM, May 05, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Farmers receive the most permits, but its not unusual for someone whose property has been over run with deer to receive an occasional permit.

Hmm...
You think they'd do a better job of upping the number of antlerless permits issued during hunting season to manage the herd for following years. Keep a good count, and allow an extended bow- season if necessary.

Shooting them in spring or summer just because the problem shows up most immediately then seems to negate all of the statistics kept, and long-term goals of the hunt. I could see it for geese or other nuisance birds that you can't tell where or when they'll appear, but it seems poor planning (and no disincentive) to award too many special permits out of season.

9:03 PM, May 05, 2007  
Anonymous Bugs said...

Bears pass on the left. Except European ones.

9:07 PM, May 05, 2007  
Anonymous TMink said...

anon wrote about objecting to "military style" firearms. What is a military style firearm?

Trey

10:06 PM, May 05, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Trey,
If you have to ask...

:)

10:24 PM, May 05, 2007  
Anonymous Chuck Pelto said...

TO: Anonymouse
RE: Asking the Question

"If you have to ask..." -- Anonymouse, to Trey about a question of what constitutes a military style firearm.

What's the matter, buckie? Can't tell the difference? Or won't?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The field behind rhetoric is oft mined with equivocation.]

10:34 PM, May 05, 2007  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

Anon :03 PM

Missouri has one of the best deer control programs going. Over 235,000 deer were taken in 2006. And yet, they still target crops and cause damage. They don't stay in one place, you know. While not travelling as far as geese, deer range quite a ways.

"Shooting them in spring or summer..."

Well, spring and summer is when the crops grow. You can't predict deer feeding habits.


Human hair doesn't really work on much anything. Rabbits are best controlled with a 4/10. Nice, tight scatter, steel shot, rabbits simply fall over. I had to take 16 one season because they were decimating the gardens.

I suggest the rear legs cooked like rack of lamb with blackberry glazing.

11:06 PM, May 05, 2007  
Blogger Webutante said...

As someone who has just spent the last four days fly fishing three hours outside New York City, I can say there is a world of nature to be relished out there! But now in the city, I can say the tulips on the streets are beautiful also!

11:12 PM, May 05, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To: Anonymous leftwinger who has lived in NY and writes about "military style" guns

Do yourself a favor and don't answer any more questions about what those things are.

Remember Lincoln's advice:
"It is better to keep one's mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and resolve all doubt."

12:06 AM, May 06, 2007  
Anonymous lpdbw said...

If you are interested in a magazine featuring Guns & Gardens, you might also check out "Backwoods Home Magazine". It's like Mother Earth News, but less wacked-out leftism and knee-jerk enviromentalism. Not absent, just a lot less.

Massad Ayoob has a monthly column on firearms for farm and self-defense.

12:10 AM, May 06, 2007  
Anonymous triticale said...

Military-style firearm means a firearm which looks like one which has had military use. A matchlock caliver, a trapdoor Springfield, or even a semiautomatic with a box magazine and one of those evil heatshields. It's a secret codephrase which ultimately means all our guns.

12:27 AM, May 06, 2007  
Anonymous TMink said...

No really, my question is sincere, what do you mean by "military style" firearms?

Trey

12:28 AM, May 06, 2007  
Anonymous JKB said...

Well given he admits to being a lefty from New York, I'm confident that he means the scary looking ones. It is just a strawman aimed at all firearms since all firearms are useful to the military and all but non-combat shotguns are listed on the US munitions list which lists defense articles controlled for export.

If you were to show the lefties a picture of a M14 and an AR15 rifle, they would choose and have chosen to ban the AR15 even though it is a semi-automatic civilian rifle and the M14 is a military rifle that can be semi-automatic or automatic. Why, because the AR-15 has a pistol grip and looks scarier than the M14 which has a wooden stock.

2:47 AM, May 06, 2007  
Blogger Kirk said...

Dogwood and anon,

Here in my particular corner of suburbia, even a bow hunt wouldn't be required--the deer are so used to people that a careful stalker could easily sidle up to one a club it--still illegal to do so, alas...

Trey,

Now that's an easy question to answer! Almost everyone knows that a "military firearm" is one that someone has decided you shouldn't be able to own.

4:45 AM, May 06, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What's the matter, buckie? Can't tell the difference? Or won't?

Um... anon 10:24 was making a joke!

anon10:24 did not write the comment about military style weapons, but can use imagination to guess what6z;25 was referring. It's not exactly a new argument

For the records, anon 1024 is not a gun afficionado as some here appear to be. Anon 1024 just likes venison procured during season, and knows a bit about keeping deer/rabbits out of a garden.

Carry on minus the insults, please. Some of you are sure quick to take offense, not a good sign if you're a true sportsman.

5:58 AM, May 06, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

olignonicella:
They don't stay in one place, you know. While not travelling as far as geese, deer range quite a ways.

"Shooting them in spring or summer..."

Well, spring and summer is when the crops grow. You can't predict deer feeding habits.


au contraire, mon frair!
Our state tracks the territory covered by deer herds annually. Of course deer herds travel, but if you track them annually they tend to be predictable the ranges of roaming from year to year. Because of fears of wasting disease, as one or two were found infected in the southern part of our state, there's been a greater study of this is recent years.

Using science, and understanding breeding patterns in different weather conditions (perhaps this doesn't apply in Missouri where you are less likely to have savage winters or wolf packs that cull the herd naturally)
you can best manage the herd during hunting season by the number of permits issued. Particularly antlerless permits, because those are the breeders for the next season.

Look into it. I'm sure you would be impressed with the scientific precision that goes into the "harvest".

Missouri has one of the best deer control programs going. Over 235,000 deer were taken in 2006

You certainly aren't arguing that success is based on numbers alone, which varies from year to year. "Deer control?" Hmm... never heard it phrased like that. We're not into "controlling" our wildlife much.

Here, we have had extended seasons, they've initiated special tag rules, ie/no taking a buck until you'll filled X amount of antlerless. They've extended seasons when the numbers of deer taken were down, herd numbers were up, and the winters were mild in past years.

Finally, there is a reason we hunt in November during the rut. If you respect the animal, you understand why you would not want to issue many spring/summer permits, regardless if that's when Johnny Landowner gets his first glimse at the numbers out there. Sorry, I understand the need for emergency permits, but if your DNR was more scientific and doing a better job of managing, I'd venture to say you wouldn't need to shoot so many out of season.

ps. Human hair -- plenty of it and fresh from the barbershop -- works in keeping away critters. I seem to have offended someone's pride here, and obviously some people like to shoot and kill more than they respect the ongoing sport and conservation efforts behind the hunt. If you decimate populations, that affects numbers down the line. Perhaps good for Johnny Landowner, content to stuff his freezer with 15 carcasses one year and have a garden essentially serving as a baiting trough. (No baiting allowed here either, though lots of cheaters do it.)

Sounds to me like some of you just have a lack of opportunity to shoot your guns, aren't able to travel or pay out-state fees to hunt in season elsewhere.

A gun is just a part of the hunt. If you do it right, it's not like those game farms you see on tv, where they set up your kill. Bet some of you might enjoy picking off hundreds of prairie dogs in the Dakotas though. Never thought of that as "hunting" myself, just living target practice.

6:20 AM, May 06, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Apologies to Chuck.
When I looked back to see who wrote this, about how to keep deer out of gardens, I can see you were joking too!

Slightly off topic: is there any way to keep deer away short of shooting them?" -- ricpic

You might consider using X10 technology to (1) detect their presence and (2) activate offensive measures against them.

Check out discussions at www.shed.com. There's a search of archived discussion. Search on "deer".

I know someone used that to drive off cranes and geese. The cranes were after fish in a pond. The geese were just making a mess.

Detection, via Passive Infra-Red (PIR) sensors, activated high-pressure pulse sprinklers that would sweep the area with jets of water, making the birds leave.


That's a hoot. Passive Infra-Red sensors and pressure pulse sprinklers, eh? Thems fancy technology and 'spensive sounding solutions for a common rural problem. You were kidding us with that response, right??

6:37 AM, May 06, 2007  
Anonymous Theo said...

Why shouldn't there be a magazine that reflects the hobbies of those who both hunt and enjoy gardening and nature? Afterall, the two are not mutually exclusive.

That's right - there's nothing at all contradictory about lovingly tending to plant life in your back yard and then going out and blowing away animal life for fun. That's just love of nature.

8:43 AM, May 06, 2007  
Blogger R2K said...

Hey great page, first time reader.

9:00 AM, May 06, 2007  
Blogger Dogwood said...

Anon,

Each year, the DNR adjusts the number of antlerless permits a hunter may purchase in each county in an attempt to control the population.

For instance, in my county two years ago, I was allowed to take one antlerless deer, but this year I was allowed to take two.

The problem, IMHO, is that a lot of hunters go for the trophy buck and then quit for the season. I would like to see an "earn a buck" requirement that hunters first take an antlerless deer before they can shoot a buck.

9:01 AM, May 06, 2007  
Blogger rightwingprof said...

I own 17 rifles. My most powerful is my .30-06 Remington 700. With a walnut stock. A hunting rifle. Get the same rifle with a synthetic stock, and suddenly, it becomes a "military-style" rifle and must be banned, since it make make somebody wet his panties.

And here's that "whole other world" outside NYC.

9:32 AM, May 06, 2007  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

AC 6:20AM

No, not numbers alone, and you're right, we don't have wolf packs in Mo. Harvest is indicative of herd size which in turn is indicative of health.

2000 - 201,165
2001 - 205,867
2002 - 217,435
2004 - 207,516
You get the picture, the deer population is healthy, but not varying wildly.

More hunting permits to affect the population in advance of the next summer/spring. That's not "control" how? In fact, your next sentence outlines ways your state takes to influence the hunt and thus control the population.

Seeing as how we're talking about instances of crop damage (ranging far was in context of croplands), I don't see where you leapt to an overall modus operandi.

Ah, the ad hominum. Well sir, in MO, "good johnny landowner" may not shoot fifty -- more like two and two. Don't inflate numbers so much.

And then you leap again. We don't allow hunting farms in Mo. There have been a number of high profile arrests and convictions of illegal shooting. It's pretty strict, the last family caught shooting and selling, the guys got 15 years.

Population decimation is most likely accomplished through not managing (like that word better?) the numbers. They will then explode in number and denude the forest of undergrowth. This will then starve the tortoises, racoons, opossums and many others. That is decimation.

Human hair is not a cure all. In Mo it doesn't work. Have tried, know first hand. Nor have scarecrows, hanging CD's, pie pans and other stuff. Deer ain't dumb.

"If you respect the animal, you understand why you would not want to issue many spring/summer permits..."

Please, oh please, give me the reason. You failed to provide it then, please do so now. And no one said many.

Hunters (and by that I don't mean asses in trees with beer, shooters from roadside, baiters, etc.) take their limit (determined by MoCon based on herd sizes) and go home.

9:57 AM, May 06, 2007  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

Um, by the way, anybody got any numbers on how much human hair one would need to protect a five acre garden?

10:18 AM, May 06, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The problem, IMHO, is that a lot of hunters go for the trophy buck and then quit for the season. I would like to see an "earn a buck" requirement that hunters first take an antlerless deer before they can shoot a buck.

Dogwood--
That's exactly how it's done in Wisconsin, for the reason you outline. No buck, until you fill the antlerless tags. It's really not as restrictive as you might think (passing up a shot on a buck), because people tend to hunt in parties and fill their tags accordingly to earn the buck.

10:57 AM, May 06, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Please, oh please, give me the reason. You failed to provide it then, please do so now.
Hmmm...
I suspect we've got a gentry farmer here. A stockbroker perhaps, new to rural life.

I'm not going to GIVE you the answer; you'll have to think it through yourself but...

Got any ideas what time of year the does give birth, and what condition deer are in after the winter, v. in autumn during harvest time. You want to feast on a spring deer, huh?

Do you really want to kill them then just to have the jollies of shooting something dead? Any concern about spotted fawns wandering onto the roadways after they're orphaned because some newcomer to the country just doesn't understand how the long-term "management" plan works? (yep--I like that word much better than "control." You're managing the numbers, not "controlling" anything.)

Maybe you could buy yourself a good book about deer, habitats, and educate yourself before you go getting all whiny and find out no, it's not normal to allow "special" permits just because your plants got munched once, twice or thrice? Buck up buddy, and stop the whining!
---------------
Human hair is not a cure all. In Mo it doesn't work. Have tried, know first hand.

Try deer repellent. Hair works for rabbits -- particularly once you're past the wet season, and it keeps the scent. I suspect we plant later up here, so I'll trust you it doesn't work in MO. Doesn't mean it doesn't work for others in their personal gardens, which is what ricpic asked.

Tell me, when you hunt, do you use any scent protection to disguise yourself? Especially for bow hunting season. Those products work too, despite what the naysayers might have you believe.
---------------
If you decimate populations, that affects numbers down the line. Perhaps good for Johnny Landowner, content to stuff his freezer with 15 carcasses one year and have a garden essentially serving as a baiting trough.

Well sir, in MO, "good johnny landowner" may not shoot fifty -- more like two and two. Don't inflate numbers so much.


Read the comment above on how to solve the problem of rabbits in the garden that I was responding to:
I had to take 16 one season because they were decimating the gardens.

If you've got 5 acres oligon, it sure would seem silly to bed each plant with hair. If you're worrying about rabbits destroying what you've planted on 5 acres, those must be SOME rabbits, eh?

Works fine for rabbits in your typical family garden though. Much more effective than killing 15 rabbits, that you'd obviously have to freeze if you're going to eat.

------
Deer ain't dumb.

I disagree. Does do some pretty stupid things. Stay out there in season, you'll see it too.

Say, what kind of rural American name is Oligonicella anyway? You sound like you're new to these parts. Heh

11:19 AM, May 06, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

That's cute too, how you prove your hunting knowledge by quoting us ... statistics. I can guarantee you most successful hunters can't quote you those numbers off the top of their heads, but they surely are aware why you don't want to have a "special" spring season.

Common sense v. thinking too hard.

11:23 AM, May 06, 2007  
Blogger tomcal said...

Trey:

A "military style" firearm (to someone with little or no firearms experience) is any firearm excluding the following:

1) A single shot .22 bolt action rife, like you had when you were a kid; a tubular magazine is considered a "floater", depending on the color of the stock it could be "military style". See my further comments on rifle stocks below.

2) A lever-action cowboy style rifle.

3) A bolt action rife (30-'06 or smaller) with an internal magazine and a wood stock - if it has a synthetic stock, and especially if said stock is black or olive-drab in color it is automatically "Military".

4) Any double barrelled shotgun, as long as the barrel is 24 inches or longer.

5) Any pump action shotgun, as long as it has a wood stock (synthetic makes it military), a barrel 24 inches or longer, a magazine holding 3 of less shells, and gold inlaid scenes of hunting dogs on the receiver.

6) Any automatic shotgun, as long as it has a wood stock (synthetic makes it military), a barrel 24 inches or longer, a magazine holding 3 of less shells, and gold inlaid scenes of hunting dogs on the receiver.

7) Any revolver of .357 magnum caliber or smaller, provided that the barrel is at least 6, but no longer than 8 inches long, that the grip is made of wood, it does not have tritium or other night sights, or a scope, and that the cylinder holds no more that 6 rounds.

Any other firearm is "Military", a category into which all but a select few of my guns fall.

Tom

1:31 PM, May 06, 2007  
Blogger tomcal said...

By the way, my son (age 15) and I were sniping ground squirrels with my tricked out AR-15 at 250 yards from a hilltop yesterday. I do agree with some commentors that there are more effective inexpensive, and less time-consuming ways to control pests, but they are not near as fun.

There is just something about seeing small animals turn to vapor through the crosshairs that satifies any real man's primitive primordial urges.

1:51 PM, May 06, 2007  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

"I suspect we've got a gentry farmer here. A stockbroker perhaps, new to rural life."

Right back to the ad hominum I see. And, you suspect wrong.

We weren't talking meat hunting, we're talking about protecting crops -- hence "depradation permits" -- not a special spring 'season'. Don't conflate.

Didn't say the rabbits were on the 5. I've seen the rabbits sit on the hair. Didn't say it always failed, I said it's not a cure all. And, that was one season -- 2004. Everyone in the county had rabbit problems that year.

Prepared in the manner I described, yes you freeze to accumulate. Fried like chicken, no.

How is preventing a population explosion less effective than just repelling them?

The fifty was in reference to deer, you know.

People do pretty stupid things too. Like presume someone doesn't have learnin' in biology. You think deer're dumb, I don't.

"Say, what kind of rural American name is Oligonicella anyway?"

A better one than Anonymous.

3:03 PM, May 06, 2007  
Anonymous David said...

FYI on the title of this newly launched magazine, from its media kit:

"The name of the magazine, The Garden & Gun, is intended to evoke an image of the sporting life and the Southern land around which the magazine will be centered. It hints at the dual audience readership. But it really comes from the name of a bar that enlivened the Charleston, SC nightlife scene in the late 1970’s.
Celebrity author twins and regular contributors to Martha Stewart Living, Matt and Ted Lee, who hail from Charleston, talk of it fondly in their newly released cookbook:

“Although the Garden & Gun lasted only from 1976 … until 1981, the bar was deeply influential, and even today … we still hear people of a certain age waxing nostalgic about the dance scene at the Garden & Gun."

4:21 PM, May 06, 2007  
Anonymous Bugs said...

I use a Remington 700 Light Tactical Rifle in .308. Ideal for those standoff situations where the deer has a hostage and accuracy is everything. On the other hand, it's probably "military."

Tom's list sounds familiar. What is up with synthetic stocks, anyway? Gun controllers are apparently about as ignorant as they come.

I was wondering - would it make sense for the gov to institute a licensing system for firearms use similar to, say, the FAA licensing system for pilots? You'd have to get training and/or study and pass an official ATF exam to get a basic license. This would entitle you to own and use specific types of weapons in specific situations. If you wanted more advanced weapons for other uses - more study, pass the appropriate exams, and get further "ratings" for your license. I know - crooks could still bypass the system and get whatever guns they wanted. But at last a licensing system like might pacify the gov and anti-gunners by distinguishing responsible firearms owners from those knuckleheads who make up most of the firearm-related death statistics.

And of course, a system like that would be "shall issue" - meaning the gov would not be allowed to arbitrarily decide not to issue licenses like they do with CCW in some areas.

Just a thought...

4:44 PM, May 06, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

When you started begging me to give reasons why you might not want to kill deer out of season--

Please, oh please, give me the reason. You failed to provide it then, please do so now.

--I simply figured you didn't know no biology. It's all related, you know. Kill a springtime doe, who has just given birth to one, perhaps two, and then they are orphaned, much more likely to wander onto a roadway, and depending on your roads, that's a danger to motorists.

Nevermind crop damage. Deer-car collisions are the number one reason you want to maintain adequate herd levels, but no more.

I give up on "your 50 deer" example because you mistook the argument from the start. The hair advice was for the rabbits, in simple garden plots, not 5 acres. If it doesn't work for you, so be it. Others might want to give it a shot though.

Most farmers here understand there will be some crops eaten by deer, and they may have to replant some of the outer rows. This "just go get a springtime permit", as a first resort, seems bizarre. Again, if your DNR is properly counting, and your hunters are cooperating by filling the tags as needed, there should be less and less need for special depredation permits, right? How much damage can one deer do? If you've got a whole herd feasting on your mere 5 acres, and not leaving so you're continually eaten out, then you've got problems. Why are they sticking to your 5? I've never heard of that?

Truth is, most true hunters are out all week, filling tags in their party if the hunting is good. This way, everyone bags at least one or two, and the younger hunters get some experience in the drive. Do you hunt alone, and only in springtime at that?

Here, our deer are cornfed. We like that, less gamey taste as woods deer feasting on acorns. Some leave standing corn over the winter for them. To shoot a deer in the spring for munching fresh green shoots is not good management, though I could see where it might be necessary in an emergency. But if you start relying on the spring depredation special permit, again I think you should get on your DNR to issue more tags during the autumn hunt, and urge your fellow hunters to take them then, rather than in spring when the carcass most likely goes to waste.

What part of Missouri anyway?

4:49 PM, May 06, 2007  
Blogger tomcal said...

Bugs:

Actually we had the .308 LTR out there yesterday as well. It can (actually with me shooting, others may have the skill to extend the reach) reliably hit ground squirrels out to about 450 yards; as long as you have a laser rangefinder and a well developed data book... I got 2 at that distance with 2 bullets (Combined Technology 168 grain).

Probably couldn't do it with a wood stock though :)

Tom

7:30 PM, May 06, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

lmao...

A laser rangefinder for... squirrels? Good god. Where have all the real men gone???

8:38 PM, May 06, 2007  
Blogger tomcal said...

They arre all around you, just open your eyes...

8:40 PM, May 06, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I blame that damn Reynolds for turning all the men into squirrel hunting phenoms with all this specialized techno.

Why not use your skills in better ways, gents? You know, they used to shoot buffalo out of the train windows for sport too, and think it was special.

lmao... squirrels... with lasers

Next thing they'll be employing radar detection and sprinkler systems to keep the critters out of the gardens. Good think most of you here are all talk... proven by your knowledge of biology, when deer birth. Suburban boys with toys ... killing... squirrels. AND BRAGGING ABOUT IT!!! God help America and we wonder about the men today. Lololol

8:42 PM, May 06, 2007  
Blogger tomcal said...

Anon:

Obviously the squirrel episode entertains you even more than me. More proof that we Americans are genetically predisposed to enjoy the hunt, but whatever means.

As for your ideas about radar detection, I think they are cool. You are obviously endowed with great foresight.

Tom

8:56 PM, May 06, 2007  
Blogger tomcal said...

Correction: ..by whatever means.

8:58 PM, May 06, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Don't flatter yourself that killing a squirrel 450 yards away, just for the pleasure of taking life, has ANYTHING to do with a hunt. You're just the opposite, in face, of what I was describing in the 3rd comment at 1:58. I'd much rather our sons be fat couch potatoes than to think that that is Man's place in nature. Maybe there is a reason books like this are falling out of favor, if men like you are what comes of it.

I'll stick with the generational teaching handed down lovinging in learning to care for the land. Something tells me that me and mine will be inheriting the earth long after your type has passed, never knowing the true joy and beauty possible in life, while acknowledging the realities of killing so other lives can exist.

You really should go huntin prairie dogs in the Dakotas. With that fancy laser, you'd be a "great shot". (I only laugh because if I didn't laugh I'd cry at what America and the majority of the men are becoming with this lack of respect or life, human or otherwise. We truly deserve our fate if this is what the tecnical "advances" are for. Shooting squirrels aided by lasers... God help us, where is the sport in that?)

9:42 PM, May 06, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

They arre all around you, just open your eyes...

No sir.
You're a pathetic excuse for a man. And unfortunately, I do suspect there are plenty more out there like you.

Teach your children well...

9:43 PM, May 06, 2007  
Blogger tomcal said...

Check out my favorite foundation:

http://www.patagonialandtrust.org/

9:50 PM, May 06, 2007  
Anonymous Bugs said...

Tom, you naughty man! Everybody knows the correct way to kill a ground squirrel is to sneak up from behind and strangle him with a garrote wire.

Four hundred and fifty yards, indeed. Go stand in the corner...

9:57 PM, May 06, 2007  
Blogger tomcal said...

Bugs:

Absolutely, in an ideal world.

BTW: In addition to my favorite foundation, which I support both financially and by spreading the word, check out my favorite business:

http://www.blackwaterusa.com/

The older you get, and the more complicated the world becomes, deciding what is "right" becomes very complicated.

Do you agree?

10:05 PM, May 06, 2007  
Blogger Obernai said...

tomcal, I must disagree with your statement. I think the older you get, while the world may seem more complicated, your decisions and ethical viewpoint of the world becomes less ambiguous, thus deciding what is 'right' and 'wrong' actually becomes easier.
At least that is my view. That is not to say that I am less 'flexible' in my thinking, just more sure of my own ethical and moral foundation.

11:06 PM, May 06, 2007  
Anonymous Jim said...

"Don't flatter yourself that killing a squirrel 450 yards away, just for the pleasure of taking life, has ANYTHING to do with a hunt. "

True. Probably more like cleansing the land of vermin, in an environmentally more responsible way than using poison. How's that for "generational teaching handed down lovinging in learning to care for the land"?. Here in Western Washington the squirrels are some grey species from back East, so they are foreign vermin. They have competed out the native Douglas suqirrels. Apparently the Douglas squirrels can't handle guns very well.

11:20 PM, May 06, 2007  
Blogger tomcal said...

Obernai:

If what you say is true, then why do young men zealouly go to war, while old men, with the greatest caution and suspicion of the motives of the opponent,negociate the peace?

11:47 PM, May 06, 2007  
Blogger tomcal said...

correction: zealously go to war..

11:49 PM, May 06, 2007  
Blogger tomcal said...

Anon:

During your life, how many children have died in your arms?

Just curious...

12:02 AM, May 07, 2007  
Anonymous Blooger cheezedale said...

We should use our brain for logic thinking. Natural is to enjoy and relax, its not a hunting ground perhaps. The usage of those two must be understaood clearly at first.

3:30 AM, May 07, 2007  
Anonymous Bugs said...

Tom:

Yep.

11:13 AM, May 07, 2007  
Anonymous Jim said...

"We should use our brain for logic thinking. Natural is to enjoy and relax, its not a hunting ground perhaps."

That reflects a rather shallow experience of nature. Here's some nature for you: last year in suburban Laguna Niguel, in Southern California, a cougar killed and began to eat a bicyclist who was riding on a bike path in a green belt. Nature, real nature, is indeed a hunting ground, and sometimes the prey is human.

The local people (suburbanites) had the sense in this case to decide to leave the cougar alone. They seemed to think that they could spare some suburbanites if that was what it cost to have wild cougars in the hills.

BTW, your diction suggests that you might be European, and that would explain your experience of nature. I remember how in Germany they refer to planted forests, trees in rows, as " die Natur".

12:03 PM, May 07, 2007  
Anonymous Mr. Squirrel said...

LOL - I've seen this argument before.

People might be interested to know that not everyone in the shooting community is comfortable with the types that enjoy exploding squirrels with a high powered rifle. They're regarded as the rat catchers of the hunting world.

12:10 PM, May 07, 2007  
Anonymous Bugs said...

I suppose taking fiddler crabs with a blowgun is not approved of, either. But in my book, that's the sporting life at its best.

12:55 PM, May 07, 2007  
Blogger tomcal said...

For rats, I use an air pistol I keep in the barn.

1:08 PM, May 07, 2007  
Anonymous Bugs said...

Rats? I just set the mastiffs on 'em. Oh, how the blood and fur do fly...

BTW - I just read my local news station's website that Virginia Game Wardens are now going to be called Conservation Police Officers. Their jobs increasingly involve police activity - pursuit and arrest of criminals - rather than just enforcing hunting regulations.

http://www.wtopnews.com/?nid=600&sid=1133602

1:42 PM, May 07, 2007  
Anonymous Locomotive Breath said...

It's twelve years later and I'm still laughing about this old Usenet thread.
---------------------------
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.gardens/browse_thread/thread/d4eefd3de5bd33a9/69203df69d0ee050?lnk=st&q=&rnum=1#69203df69d0ee050


Binh Pham
Jul 6 1995, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
From: b...@Eng.Sun.COM (Binh Pham)
Date: 1995/07/06
Subject: Help ! How to get rid of golfers
Reply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author
My backyard is being ravaged by a golfer ! Is there an easy way
to chase it away without having to gas it ?
I am using a trap right now and have no luck with it.

Thanks,
-Binh

4:10 PM, May 07, 2007  
Anonymous TMink said...

Not golfers, gophers! Right Carl?

Trey

5:03 PM, May 07, 2007  
Anonymous Bugs said...

loco - Funny!

Of course, if it's making holes in my lawn, I don't care whether it's a golfer or a gopher.

5:53 PM, May 07, 2007  
Blogger serket said...

Perhaps one spouse likes gardening and the other likes hunting and this magazine can be a common interest.

6:15 PM, May 07, 2007  
Blogger tomcal said...

serket:

Absolutely!!!

9:58 PM, May 07, 2007  
Blogger TMink said...

Of course, if it's making holes in my lawn, I don't care whether it's a golfer or a gopher.

Note to self: work on divot.

Trey

11:43 PM, May 07, 2007  
Blogger tomcal said...

I can't talk about golf. My dad was captain of the Stanford Golf Team in the early 50's. Since the day I was born I have had golf hammered into my soul. I know the rules, the strategy, the history, and most of the famous courses.

My only problem is that I didn't inheret the gene that allows one to hit the f'ing ball.

Golf has ruined my life...

12:52 AM, May 08, 2007  
Anonymous Bugs said...

Don't feel so bad. You can nail a golf ball at 450 yards with your LTR. IMO, that's WAY cooler than hitting it with a dumb old golf club.

8:51 AM, May 08, 2007  
Anonymous Bilwick said...

If people are bothered by the title GARDEN & GUN, I guess they'll really be bothered by an even newer magazine, SHOOTING LIBERALS.

9:01 AM, May 08, 2007  
Blogger Dewave said...

But there are many many out there that ought not be allowed to have guns. Period.

Yes, people willing to disobey the laws. Of course, such people are no more likely to obey a law against obtaining a fire arm than they are to obety a law against committing robbery, so perhaps we should at least give law abiding citizens the means to defend themselves?

Of course, if you are referring to mental health checks being run as well as a background check, that's a solid and sensible idea.

4:44 PM, May 08, 2007  
Blogger Dewave said...

I was wondering - would it make sense for the gov to institute a licensing system for firearms use similar to, say, the FAA licensing system for pilots? You'd have to get training and/or study and pass an official ATF exam to get a basic license. This would entitle you to own and use specific types of weapons in specific situations.

Well, think about it in this light:

Would it make sense for the government to issue a licensing system for free speech like they do for FAA pilots? You'd have to get training and pass an official thought exam to get a basic license. This would entitle you to hold and present specific opinions in specific situations.

4:50 PM, May 08, 2007  
Anonymous Bugs said...

Presumably, you'd justify a licensing system using the "well-regulated militia" part of the Second Amendment. Although if you interpret it that way, "well regulated" and "shall not be infringed" do seem contradictory.

There's no question of regulation where the First Amendment is concerned. The language doesn't allow it.

Just speculating, anyway. There seems to be no way to work out a compromise that allows people to own guns while making non-owners feel safe.

1:33 PM, May 09, 2007  
Anonymous TMink said...

Bugs wrote: "There seems to be no way to work out a compromise that allows people to own guns while making non-owners feel safe."

I am not interested in the government working to legislate people's feelings, or to create law based on how people feel. I can get behind the common good, but count me out on the common feel good.

Trey

9:23 AM, May 10, 2007  
Anonymous Bugs said...

Point taken.

Unfortunately, people vote based on how they feel. If enough people feel unsafe because of guns, they can and will try to vote them away - Second Amendment be damned. Like it or not, it has happened and can happen again.

What I'm asking is, can we come up with policies that allow gun owners to exercise their Second Amendment rights and that also give non-owners some assurance that those rights will be execised responsibly and safely? Not as a way to bypass the Second Amendment, but as a way to protect it from extremists.

I recognize that there will always be a certain number of gun owners who, based on the latter clause of the Amendment, consider *any* regulation to be infringement. Similarly, there will always be non-owners who believe that the former clause gives the government carte blanche to ban firearms.

I'm saying that since the Amendment is open to a certain amount of interpretation, we might use that leeway to craft policies that the *majority* of people can live with. Try to fulfill BOTH clauses, not just address one while pretending the other somehow doesn't count.

As it is now, we seem to be endlessly swinging from one extreme to the other. We pass laws restricting firearms. Half of them are never adequately enforced, so we pass stricter laws. Then a few years later the courts strike them down. Then the cycle starts over again. This may be democracy in action, but it obviously doesn't result in a system that really works. I'm saying that maybe it's time to get serious about creating one.

(Again, the First Amendment doesn't give us this kind of wiggle room. It says what it says. The Second Amendment says two things at once - hence the ambiguity in interpretation.)

Like I said, I'm just thinking onscreen here. No expectation that any of this will ever happen.

Sorry for being so long-winded. Interesting discussion.

12:20 PM, May 10, 2007  
Blogger Dewave said...

There seems to be no way to work out a compromise that allows people to own guns while making non-owners feel safe.

I don't own a gun. I know gun owners, and I feel that the uniformly make the world a better and safer place by being armed.

People who feel 'uncomfortable' at the thought of other people owning guns can go snuggle up with the folks who feel 'uncomfortable' at the thought of other people saying critical or offensive things and they can all have a good cry together.

1:01 PM, May 10, 2007  
Anonymous Bugs said...

I absolutely agree with your sentiment.

Just speculating, since spineless, snuggling wieners do comprise a powerful voting bloc. (I think it's called the Democrat party. Sorry - another cheap shot.)

1:23 PM, May 10, 2007  
Anonymous TMink said...

Bugs, I appreciate you sharing your thought process.

My worry is that we are already selling out too much in order to placate the groundless fears of the uninformed in too many areas.

I am ready to draw the line and stop. That approach it too much like appeasement for me. And the difference between appeasement and blackmail is a very thin line indeed.

Trey

9:49 AM, May 11, 2007  
Blogger tomcal said...

"groundless fears of the uninformed"

Isn't that what most public policy is based upon these days?

10:07 AM, May 11, 2007  
Anonymous Bugs said...

Hear, hear!

1:19 PM, May 11, 2007  
Blogger Jaffe said...

Hey, while searching for widgets for my blog, I stumbled upon www.widgetmate.com and wow! I found what I wanted. A cool news widget. My blog is now showing latest news with title, description and images. Took just few minutes to add. Awesome!

7:25 PM, June 14, 2007  
Blogger 徵信社robin said...

徵信社, 感情挽回, 挽回感情, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 捉姦, 徵信公司, 通姦, 通姦罪, 抓姦, 抓猴, 捉猴, 捉姦, 監聽, 調查跟蹤, 反跟蹤, 外遇問題, 徵信, 捉姦, 女人徵信, 外遇問題, 女子徵信, 外遇, 徵信公司, 徵信網, 徵信, 徵信社, 外遇蒐證, 抓姦, 抓猴, 捉猴, 調查跟蹤, 反跟蹤, 感情挽回, 挽回感情, 外遇沖開, 徵信, 徵信, 徵信社, 抓姦, 徵信, 徵信社, 外遇, 外遇蒐證, 外遇, 通姦, 通姦罪, 贍養費, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信社, 抓姦, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信, 徵信公司, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信公司, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信公司, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信, 徵信公司, 徵信, 徵信社

11:26 AM, February 04, 2009  
Blogger 机器猫 said...

百家乐 轮盘 21点 德州扑克 百家乐系统 真人娱乐场 百家乐 足球 德州扑克 电子游戏 英格兰超级联赛 德国甲组联赛 意大利甲组联赛 西班牙甲组联赛 法国甲组联赛欧冠杯 英超 足球比分 足球彩票 体育彩票 即时比分 免費a片 a片 免費av 色情影片 情色 情色網 色情網站 色情 成人網 成人圖片 成人影片 18成人 av av女優 av av女優 情慾 走光 做愛 sex H漫 情色 情趣用品 情色 a片 a片 成人網站 成人影片 情趣用品 情趣用品 アダルト アダルト アダルトサイト アダルトサイト 情趣用品

12:55 AM, March 03, 2009  
Blogger selina said...

福~
「朵
語‧,最一件事,就。好,你西.........................................................................................................................................................................................

9:26 AM, March 16, 2009  
Blogger adf said...

室內設計,室內設計,室內設計,裝潢,室內設計,室內設計室內設計公司
,搬家公司,搬家公司,台北搬家公司,搬家公司,室內設計
搬家公司,健身,茶葉A片,SEO,SEO,SEO,motel,led手電筒,棧板,二胎,隔熱紙,照明,健身,a383,a383,,二手家具,a383,胸章,車燈,
文山搬家
,兼職小姐,南港搬家,大安區搬家,松山搬家,中山區搬家,八里搬家,
五股搬家,
泰山搬家,大同區搬家,中正區搬家,士林搬家,萬華搬家,

台北搬家公司,台北搬家公司,客人,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,加油棒,台中搬家公司,台北市搬家公司,台北縣搬家公司

12:55 AM, March 17, 2009  
Blogger mmbox said...

本土成人貼圖站大台灣情色網台灣男人幫論壇A圖網嘟嘟成人電影網火辣春夢貼圖網情色貼圖俱樂部台灣成人電影絲襪美腿樂園18美女貼圖區柔情聊天網707網愛聊天室聯盟台北69色情貼圖區38女孩情色網台灣映像館波波成人情色網站美女成人貼圖區無碼貼圖力量色妹妹性愛貼圖區日本女優貼圖網日本美少女貼圖區亞洲風暴情色貼圖網哈啦聊天室美少女自拍貼圖辣妹成人情色網台北女孩情色網辣手貼圖情色網AV無碼女優影片男女情色寫真貼圖a片天使俱樂部萍水相逢遊戲區平水相逢遊戲區免費視訊交友90739免費視訊聊天辣妹視訊 - 影音聊天網080視訊聊天室日本美女肛交美女工廠貼圖區百分百貼圖區亞洲成人電影情色網台灣本土自拍貼圖網麻辣貼圖情色網好色客成人圖片貼圖區711成人AV貼圖區台灣美女貼圖區筱萱成人論壇咪咪情色貼圖區momokoko同學會視訊kk272視訊情色文學小站成人情色貼圖區嘟嘟成人網嘟嘟情人色網 - 貼圖區免費色情a片下載台灣情色論壇成人影片分享免費視訊聊天區微風 成人 論壇kiss文學區taiwankiss文學區

8:53 AM, March 22, 2009  
Blogger mmbox said...

2008真情寫真aa片免費看捷克論壇微風論壇大眾論壇plus論壇080視訊聊天室情色視訊交友90739美女交友-成人聊天室色情小說做愛成人圖片區豆豆色情聊天室080豆豆聊天室 小辣妹影音交友網台中情人聊天室桃園星願聊天室高雄網友聊天室新中台灣聊天室中部網友聊天室嘉義之光聊天室基隆海岸聊天室中壢網友聊天室南台灣聊天室南部聊坊聊天室台南不夜城聊天室南部網友聊天室屏東網友聊天室台南網友聊天室屏東聊坊聊天室雲林網友聊天室大學生BBS聊天室網路學院聊天室屏東夜語聊天室孤男寡女聊天室一網情深聊天室心靈饗宴聊天室流星花園聊天室食色男女色情聊天室真愛宣言交友聊天室情人皇朝聊天室上班族成人聊天室上班族f1影音視訊聊天室哈雷視訊聊天室080影音視訊聊天室38不夜城聊天室援交聊天室080080哈啦聊天室台北已婚聊天室已婚廣場聊天室 夢幻家族聊天室摸摸扣扣同學會聊天室520情色聊天室QQ成人交友聊天室免費視訊網愛聊天室愛情公寓免費聊天室拉子性愛聊天室柔情網友聊天室哈啦影音交友網哈啦影音視訊聊天室櫻井莉亞三點全露寫真集123上班族聊天室尋夢園上班族聊天室成人聊天室上班族080上班族聊天室6k聊天室粉紅豆豆聊天室080豆豆聊天網新豆豆聊天室080聊天室免費音樂試聽流行音樂試聽免費aa片試看免費a長片線上看色情貼影片免費a長片

8:53 AM, March 22, 2009  
Blogger nini said...

85cc免費影城 愛情公寓正妹牆川藏第一美女 成人影片 情色交友網 美女視訊 美女視訊 視訊情人高雄網 JP成人影城 383成人影城 aa片免費a片下載 a片線上看aa片免費看 ※a片線上試看※sex520免費影片※ aa片免費看 BT成人論壇 金瓶影片交流區 自拍美女聊天室 aa片免費a片下載 SEX520免費影片 免費a片 日本美女寫真集 sex520aa免費影片 sex520aa免費影片 BT成人網 Hotsee免費視訊交友 百分百貼影片區 SEX520免費影片 免費視訊聊天室 情人視訊高雄網 星光情色討論版 正妹牆 383成人影城 線上85cc免費影城 85cc免費影城 85cc免費影城 85cc免費影城 ※免費視訊聊天室※ ※免費視訊聊天室※ 免費視訊聊天室 85cc免費影片 85cc免費影片 080苗栗人聊天室 080苗栗人聊天室 080中部人聊天室 080中部人聊天室 免費a片下載 免費a片 AA片免費看 aa片免費看 aa片免費看 aa片免費看 aa片免費看 日本av女優影片 av女優 av女優無碼影城 av女優 av女優 百分百成人圖片 百分百成人圖片 視訊情人高雄網 電話交友 影音電話交友 絕色影城 絕色影城 夜未眠成人影城 夜未眠成人影城 色咪咪影片網 色咪咪影片網 色咪咪影片網 色咪咪影片網 色咪咪影片網 免費色咪咪貼影片 免費色咪咪貼影片 色情遊戲 色情遊戲 色情遊戲 色情遊戲 影音視訊交友網 視訊交友網 080視訊聊天室 ※免費視訊聊天室※ ※免費視訊聊天室※ 視訊聊天室 成人影音視訊聊天室 ut影音視訊聊天室 ※免費視訊聊天室※ 視訊ukiss聊天室視訊ukiss聊天室 視訊交友90739 視訊交友90739 情人視訊網 168視訊美女 168視訊美女 168視訊美女 視訊美女館 視訊美女館 免費視訊美女網 小高聊天室 小高聊天室 aio交友聊天室 aio交友聊天室 交友聊天室 交友聊天室 線上a片 線上a片 線上a片 線上a片 線上a片 免費線上a片 免費線上a片 嘟嘟成人網站 成人漫畫 情色文學 嘟嘟成人網 成人貼圖區 情色文學成人小說 微風成人區 情色貼圖區 免費視訊聊天 免費成人圖片區 愛情公寓 愛情公寓聊天室 寄情築園小遊戲 免費aa片線上看 aa片免費看 情色SXE聊天室 SEX情色遊戲 色情A片 免費下載 av女優 俱樂部 情色論壇 辣妹視訊 情色貼圖網 免費色情 聊天室 情人視訊聊天室 免費a片成人影城 免費a片-aa片免費看 0204貼圖區 SEX情色 交友聊天-線上免費 女優天堂 成人交友網 成人情色貼圖區 18禁 -女優王國 080視訊美女聊天室 080視訊聊天室 視訊交友90739 免費a片 aio 視訊交友網 成人影城-免費a片※免費視訊聊天※85cc免費影片日本線上免費a片 免費色咪咪影片免費色咪咪影片aaa片免費看影片aaa片免費看成人影城免費色咪咪影片

4:15 PM, April 05, 2009  
Blogger 123456 said...

广州托盘复合托盘食品托盘天津木托盘胶合板托盘蜂窝纸托盘塑木托盘熏蒸木托盘木制托盘广东塑料托盘钢托盘钢制托盘栈板塑料栈板木栈板垫仓板托盘包装求购托盘天津托盘温州托盘山东托盘北京托盘上海木托盘塑胶托盘卡板纸卡板塑料卡板手推车推车机场手推车好孩子手推车液压手推车超市手推车医用手推车康贝手推车不锈钢手推车平板车电动平板车老虎车静音手推车平板手推车小推车模具架置物架堆垛架巧固架整理架物料整理架挂板架整理柜零件柜零件整理柜文件整理柜仓储笼仓库笼料箱塑料箱钢制料箱货箱整理箱塑料整理箱周转箱塑料周转箱防静电周转箱求购周转箱物流箱物料盒零件盒塑料零件盒卡板箱周转筐塑料周转筐周转箩登高车物流台车台车密集架档案密集架文件柜办公文件柜北京文件柜广州文件柜上海文件柜南京文件柜深圳文件柜钢制文件柜铁皮文件柜档案柜文件柜厂底图柜档案柜鞋柜储物柜更衣柜防火防磁柜防磁柜防火防磁文件柜图书架资料柜工具柜

6:47 AM, April 13, 2009  
Blogger 天天看正妹 said...

免費視訊聊天 ut聊天室辣妹視訊UT影音視訊聊天室 吉澤明步QQ美女視訊秀 85cc免費影片aa影片下載城sex免費成人影片aaa片免費看短片美女視訊 sex383線上娛樂場av969 免費短片日本免費視訊aa影片下載城視訊網愛聊天室影音視訊交友 咆哮小老鼠分享論壇sex520免費影片aa免費影片下載城aio辣妺視訊 aio辣妹交友愛情館 jp成人影片aio交友愛情館馬子免費影片免費線上a片18成人85cc影城0204movie免費色咪咪視訊網pc交友s383視訊玩美女人34c高雄視訊聊天jp成人免費視訊辣妹 kk777視訊俱樂部xxxpandalive173影音視訊聊天室 sex520-卡通影片成人免費視訊 完美女人13060 免費視訊聊天sexy girl video movie辣妹妹影音視訊聊天室UT視訊美女交友視訊情色網百事無碼a片dvd線上aa片免費看18禁成人網ut聊天室kk俱樂部視訊激情網愛聊天 情人小魔女自拍卡通aa片免費看夜未眠成人影城aio性愛dvd辣妹影片直播拓網視訊交友視訊聊天室ggoo168論壇視訊辣妹love104影音live秀 美女show-live視訊情色yam交友辣妹妹影音視訊聊天室s383情色大網咖視訊aaa俱樂部台灣情色網無碼avdvdsexy diamond sex888入口Show-live視訊聊天室

9:07 PM, April 13, 2009  
Blogger 天天看正妹 said...

免費 a 片aaaaa片俱樂部影片aaaaa片俱樂部dodo豆豆聊天室sex520網路自拍美女聊天室天堂免費線上avdvd援交av080影片aa影片下載城aaa片免費看短片成人圖片區18成人avooogo2av免費影片sexdiy影城免費線上成人影片bonbonsex0951影片下載日本av女優sex888免費看影片免費視訊78論壇辣妹有約辣妹no31314視訊dudu sex免費影片avdvd情色影片免費色咪咪影片網av080免費試看日本美女寫真集辣妹脫衣麻將視訊聊天室性福免費影片分享日本美女寫真集,kk視訊aio交友愛情館免費成人美女視訊bt論壇色情自拍免費a片卡通tw 18 net卡通18美少女圖色情漫畫777美女小護士免費 aa 片試看百分百成人情色圖片a片免費觀賞sexy girls get fuckedsexy girl video movie情色文學成人小說sex888免費看eyny 伊莉論壇sexdiy影城自拍情色0204movie免費影片aio免費aa片試看s383情色大網咖sexy girl video movie草莓牛奶AV論壇台灣論壇18禁遊戲區環球辣妹聊天室 90691拓網aio交友愛情館拓網學生族視訊777美女 sex888影片分享區hi5 tv免費影片aa的滿18歲卡通影片sex383線上娛樂場sexdiy影城免費a片線上觀看真人美女辣妹鋼管脫衣秀比基尼辣妹一夜情視訊aio交友愛情館

9:07 PM, April 13, 2009  
Blogger 天天看正妹 said...

85cc免費影片85cc免費影片sex520免費影片免費 a 片85cc免費影片台灣論壇免費影片免費看 aa的滿18歲影片85cc免費影片線上觀賞免費A片線上免費a片觀看a片免費看小魔女免費影城A片-sex520aaa片免費看短片aaaaa片俱樂部sex888免費看影片sex520免費影片sex免費成人影片馬子免費影片免費線上a片成人圖片區18成人avooo520sex貼片區臺灣情色網線上免費a長片免費卡通影片線上觀看gogo2sex免費 a 片sex520免費影片援交av080影片免費線上avdvd免費 aa 片試看,成人影片分享後宮0204movie免費影片免費線上歐美A片觀看sex888影片分享區微風成人av論壇plus論壇自拍情色0204movie免費影片aaa片免費看短片免費色咪咪影片網aaaa彩虹頻道免費影片日本 avdvd 介紹免費觀賞85cc免費影城5278論壇倉井空免費a影片bbs x693 com sex888a片免費觀賞sexy girls get fucked吉澤明步彩虹頻道免費短片sex520-卡通影片台灣情色網無碼avdvdaaa影片下載城彩虹頻道免費影片 sex383線上娛樂場一本道 a片 東京熱情色影片彩虹成人avdvd洪爺影城高中生援交偷拍自拍限制級色情 片

9:07 PM, April 13, 2009  
Blogger 徵信 said...

外遇外遇外遇外遇外遇外遇外遇外遇外遇 外遇
外遇 外遇外遇 外遇 外遇
外遇 外遇 外遇
外遇


外遇 外遇
外遇
外遇 外遇外遇
外遇

外遇 外遇外遇 外遇 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 ,
外遇 外遇 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇外遇 外遇外遇 外遇 外遇

外遇 外遇

外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇劈腿劈腿劈腿劈腿劈腿劈腿劈腿劈腿喜帖囍帖卡片外遇外遇 外遇 外遇外遇 外遇
外遇 外遇 外遇 外遇剖析 外遇調查 外遇案例 外遇諮詢 偷情 第三者外遇話題 外遇發洩 感情挽回 徵信社 外遇心態 外遇 通姦 通姦罪 外遇徵信社徵信社外遇 外遇 抓姦徵信協會徵信公司 包二奶 徵信社 徵信 徵信社 徵信社 徵信社 徵信社 徵信 徵信 婚姻 婚前徵信 前科 個人資料 外遇 第三者 徵信社 偵探社 抓姦 偵探社 偵探社婚 偵探社 偵探社偵探家事服務家事服務家電維修家事服務家事服務家事服務家事服務家事服務持久持久持久持久持久持久持久離婚網頁設計徵信社徵信社徵信徵信社外遇離婚協議書劈腿持久持久持久持久持久劈腿剖析徵信徵信社外遇外遇外遇外遇徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信徵信社徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信公會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信公會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿

2:31 AM, April 21, 2009  
Blogger 1314 said...

視訊做愛視訊美女無碼A片情色影劇kyo成人動漫tt1069同志交友網ut同志交友網微風成人論壇6k聊天室日本 avdvd 介紹免費觀賞UT視訊美女交友..........................

11:13 PM, May 19, 2009  
Blogger 1122 said...

聊天室13060免費聊天室13060免費聊天室13060免費聊天室ilover99聊天室ilover99聊天室ilover99聊天室ilover99聊天室ilover99一葉晴貼影片區一葉晴貼影片區一葉晴貼影片區一葉晴貼影片區85x1x成人影院85x1x成人影院85x1x成人影院85x1x成人影院85x1x成人影院成人影城成人影城aa-dvdaa-dvdlove 免費視訊美女影音觀賞love 免費視訊美女影音觀賞tvnet0204 我愛你視訊美女拳

2:37 AM, June 08, 2009  

Post a Comment

<< Home