Wednesday, May 02, 2007

Do Women Commit Mass Murder?

I was doing some research for a paper I am writing on school violence and came across this Newsweek article on the Virginia Tech Shooting. A forensic psychologist from John Jay Criminal College is interviewed:

Still, psychologists can say a few things with certainly about who is more likely to commit the most serious of crimes. Over 90 percent of killers are male, and the same holds for mass murderers—“I can’t think of a single case where a woman has done this,” says Schlesinger—partly because men tend to have more access to guns, which are usually the weapons of choice.


Perhaps Dr. Schlesinger has a poor memory, because if she thought about it, she would know that the famous song by the BoomTown Rats entitled, "I Don't Like Mondays" was written about "non-existent" (at least to some experts) Brenda Spencer. Spencer was a seventeen-year-old high school senior in San Diego who in January of 1979 opened fire into a crowded elementary school across the street from her home. She killed the principal and a janitor and injured a police officer and eight children. Her reason? "I don't like Mondays. Mondays always get me down."

In the Lillelid mass murder that I have mentioned here numerous times, three of the perpetrators were women, but I guess women just don't do serious crimes like mass murder. Maybe someone should tell that to the victims of Jennifer San Marco who last year killed her neighbor and then six people at a mail processing plant. Do women kill less often than men? Of course, but to say that you can't think of any women who commit mass murder means that you must not be looking too hard.

Labels:

98 Comments:

Anonymous Dr D said...

Would this be an example of the availability bias/heuristic?

8:21 PM, May 02, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Laurie Dann

http://www.theawarenesscenter.org/lauriedann.html

8:28 PM, May 02, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

Anonymous 8:28:

Laurie Dann, I know that case. It always fascinated me that prior to Columbine, during the late 1990's school shootings, the articles would discuss how only men committed these murders, yet on the school shooting time lines, they would have the two school shooters, Spencer and Dann and not even acknowledge that these were women.

8:39 PM, May 02, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

People in Chicago at that time won't forget Laurie Dann. That it happened in Winnetka was even more amazing. Mental illness affects all economic classes and sexes. Access to guns and denying warning signs are common in her shooting, Columbine, and VTU. I worry that in pushing for mentally ill handgun controls, we won't distinguish between types of mental illnesses and look for signs of violence.

Reports said she was taking medications for her mental troubles, so that too is similar. Maybe the pills don't help so much as we like to think.

8:53 PM, May 02, 2007  
Blogger Eric said...

This is not meant as a sexist indictment of women as mass murderers, but the "Manson girls" come to mind. While Manson was the leader of the gang, it's often forgotten that Manson wasn't physically present when they committed the actual crimes.

Or how about Ilse Koch, the she wolf of the SS? Does she count?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilse_Koch

9:09 PM, May 02, 2007  
Blogger Eric said...

And don't forget Erzebet Bathory, who tortured and killed over 600 people, mostly to drink their blood.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/women/women1/2.html

But this is nothing compared to many famous male murderers in history.

9:26 PM, May 02, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Lizzie Borden took an axe
Gave her parents 40 whacks...

9:34 PM, May 02, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Schlesinger couldn't think of any women mass murderers--for an article about Cho in which the question about women mass murderers was probably tangential? Gee, he's just not as smart as you are, Helen. They should have interviewed you instead. You could have talked about your documentary.

10:12 PM, May 02, 2007  
Anonymous invernessie said...

I would also like to mention Laurie Dann who rampaged through the Chicago suburbs in the 80's.

10:16 PM, May 02, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dr. Helen would have been a better interviewee. Since she actually knows what she's talking about. And judging by the way she deals with trollish commenters on her blog, she also has the patience of a saint.

10:22 PM, May 02, 2007  
Blogger jw said...

I was told the stats are 1 in 7 for female offender mass murder; seems to me to be in the right area.

As for people in the press not knowing any female offenders, that's just inbuilt sexism, just the misandry of society trying to put all the blame on males.

3:17 AM, May 03, 2007  
Blogger Mercurior said...

well lizzie borden was found not guilty, by the law.

there was aileen wournos, mass killer, a lot of the female killers are either angels of death, nurses, ending suffering, who may or may not suffer from muchaussens by proxy,

Diane Downs, Darlie Routier, Marybeth Tinning, Marie Hilley, nanny doss, velma barfield, anna marie hahn, madeline smith, Beverley Allitt, Celeste Beard, Bambi Bembenek, Joyce Lemay Cohen,Kathleen Folbigg, Antoinette Frank, Dana Sue Gray, Belle Gunness, Genene Jones, Winnie Ruth Judd, Katherine Knight, Dorothea Puente, Gertrude Baniszewski and many more.

they generally use poison, over a longer time and they get away with it for years, compared to men.

Sue Basso Depraved woman traps mentally handicapped man so she can use him as slave and kill him for insurance

Mary Ann Cotton Murdered between 15-21 of her close relatives by arsenic poisoning. Why? For money, personal dislike or they got in her way over something she wanted.

and he couldnt find any women.

4:45 AM, May 03, 2007  
Blogger Mercurior said...

not to mention the couple killers, myra hindley, and ian brady, fred and rose west, and others, where the woman took part.

4:51 AM, May 03, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Madame Popova killed hundreds (kind of as a hit-woman for wives who wanted their husband's money but not their live bodies around the house).

Caril Fugate (who went on a rampage in 1958 or so with Charles Starkweather) was portrayed as kind of the weak-willed go-along victim of him, although the jury didn't believe that he held her hostage. Many facts came out later that she was not only a willing participant, she had killed some of the victims herself. She also was the person hepping up Charles to kill people, not the other way around.

She was smart to portray herself as a victim - he got the electric chair, she got some prison time and is now (reportedly) working as a nurse or hospital aid in East Lansing, Michigan.

5:25 AM, May 03, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sounds like her commenters have spurred discussion here of women killers she had forgotten.

Maybe they could interview the commenters, instead of "Dr." anti-women Helen. Heh.

well lizzie borden was found not guilty, by the law.


So was OJ.
Regardless, later facts and studies have conclusively recorded where the legal system got it wrong. Science helps out years later, so don't rest too easy on your false acquittals if you're guilty, eh?.

6:40 AM, May 03, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Define troll anyway.

Someone who embarrasses the blog hostess with facts and objections to her pro-male tint? SOmeone who posts early and often? Or someone who doesnt bow to he Helen and Glenn show as the most informative piece of work out there.

I like their set up, the content not so much. He's empty especially on the war, and she is glommed on closely to him, and has the anti-woman pro-male slant trying to make a niche. Not too impressive to intellectuals, but they apparently turn a quick buck or two.

6:43 AM, May 03, 2007  
Anonymous SaltedSlug said...

A forensic psychologist makes an assertion about a topic relevant to his field of expertise. Dr. Helen and her commenters make statements refuting said statement.

The statement specifically associated egregious crime with the male gender, so, anonytroll, you fabricate the idea that trivially presenting evidence to the contrary is somehow "anti-woman" and evidence of "pro-male tint"?

There's a reason most of this country uses the word, "intellectual", with an overwhelming sense of irony.

9:02 AM, May 03, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There's a reason most of this country uses the word, "intellectual", with an overwhelming sense of irony.

"Doctor" too.

you fabricate the idea that trivially presenting evidence to the contrary is somehow "anti-woman" and evidence of "pro-male tint"?

Not been reading this blog work long, eh?

9:26 AM, May 03, 2007  
Anonymous TMink said...

JW wrote: "As for people in the press not knowing any female offenders, that's just inbuilt sexism, just the misandry of society trying to put all the blame on males."

I think it is something else too. It is too frightening to think of women as possible dangerous sociopaths and too comforting to think of them as incapable of sadistic violence.

Neglect kills more children than abuse, and neglect is the primary domain of women child killers. But as a society we are shocked to learn that women kill ore children than men. It is too scarry to hold.

And anon, in your case, a troll is someone who hides their antagonism and vitriol behind a thin veneer of reason and criticism.

Someone who insults behind anonymity and calls names instead of sharing ideas.

Trollish, childish, cowardly.

Trey

9:35 AM, May 03, 2007  
Anonymous happy troll said...

The article is quite clear that women do commit mass murder, but that most mass murderers are men. Is that true or not? Discussing women mass murderers is interesting, no doubt. If the interviewer had interviewed Schlesinger about women mass murderers, I'd bet he could come up with a list --but why beat up the guy because he couldn't think of a name in the middle of a discussion about something else? Why pretend that his "can't think of a name" is anything more than it is? I don't think that good-forensic-psychologist necessarily equals encyclopedic-memory. Helen likes to remind her readers that women can be bad and finds reason for that reminder quite often. That's her gig, and we get some interesting discussions from that. Helen also gets increased hits from a good old fashioned troll war. Probably not as many hits as she gets from instapundit linking to her blog, though.

10:08 AM, May 03, 2007  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

AC 10:12

Schlesinger is a forensic psych. For him not to be able to "think of a single case" either makes him ignorant in his own field or unwilling to say there are many examples of female mass murderers.

"...question about women mass murderers was probably tangential?"

Perhaps, then, he shouldn't have introduced the topic with such an ignorant statement?

10:12 AM, May 03, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Trollish, childish, cowardly.

I know you are but what am I?

Honestly, the level of discussion seems to fall in here every time "Dr." Trey opens his yapper.

10:27 AM, May 03, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well his 'access to guns' rationalization is sufficient reason to discount any of his other claims.

11:04 AM, May 03, 2007  
Anonymous TMink said...

Anon, it is a gift! I don't even try! Nice quote on the "Dr" by the way. That is so infuriating! Ouch! I throw that around all the time, how dare you doubt my superiority.

Snore.

Try again, you can do better.

Trey

11:05 AM, May 03, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

psst. "Dr." Trey:
It's not always about you.

Shush up now about your personal attention needs, repeat: it's not about you, or me for that matter.

I repeat: the discussion drops a bit every time you open your mouth and try to make it about you.

11:26 AM, May 03, 2007  
Anonymous TMink said...

Mercurior wrote: "angels of death, nurses, ending suffering, who may or may not suffer from muchaussens by proxy."

Angels of death is an interesting phrase, full of ambivelence. I wonder if it refers to their denial, telling themselves "I am doing this for their own good, I am ending suffering" or the contrast between a nurses intended, stated mission and those women's murders, or both?

Maybe it refers to our ambivelence as well.

Trey

11:32 AM, May 03, 2007  
Anonymous happy troll said...

Okay, so let's make this a war between trolls. I LIKE TREY. LEAVE HIM ALONE. His comments are civil (usually) and he is one of the few who is willing to admit that he learned something from another poster. Helen doesn't do that.

11:33 AM, May 03, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think that Dr. Helen is taking the true feminist view. There won't be equality until there is equal responsibility being taken for our behavior. Even all other things being equal, the system always defaults in favor of the woman on the false presumption that women aren't as depraved as men.

11:37 AM, May 03, 2007  
Blogger TMink said...

Happy troll, I really should be civil all the time. Sorry. It is not my best quality when I get snippy or mean. But I have attracted some intense negative interest, and it is interesting to deal with if not a little boring for the rest of you to read.

I do learn things here. How cool is that! And sometimes I learn from responding to attacks, which is also cool. But I will try to remain more polite in the future, and I appreciate your honest assessment of my imperfect civility. I learned something again.

Trey

11:45 AM, May 03, 2007  
Blogger TMink said...

Anon wrote: "I think that Dr. Helen is taking the true feminist view. There won't be equality until there is equal responsibility being taken for our behavior."

We agree, well said. So is true and effective feminism in fact humanism?

"Even all other things being equal, the system always defaults in favor of the woman on the false presumption that women aren't as depraved as men."

I do not agree with "always," but change it to usually and we agree. Maybe it is not depraved, maybe it is the presumption that women are not as dangerous as men.

Trey

11:47 AM, May 03, 2007  
Blogger br549 said...

Don't be concerned, the troll is only Rosie. She's a light weight.

12:30 PM, May 03, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Rosie is a lot of things. But not light weight.

I think the troll is really a Dr. Helen fan, trying to make her look good by making her opponents look like complete, blithering idiots.

It's working, too.

12:43 PM, May 03, 2007  
Anonymous arminius said...

Jiang Qing comes to mind as a female mass murderer that most male mass murderers couldn't hold a candle to....

12:48 PM, May 03, 2007  
Anonymous Viola Jaynes said...

I like Trey as well and find his comments insightful and honest. I don't know why this one certain Anon has such an issue with Trey or Dr. Helen. Why come to this blog he is so unhappy about it?

12:50 PM, May 03, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


I do learn things here.


Like wipe your own little one's asses, and not bitch when some older lady objects to doing it on class time??

12:51 PM, May 03, 2007  
Blogger Der Hahn said...

Andrea Yates

1:23 PM, May 03, 2007  
Blogger Difster said...

Der Hahn,

I was just about to mention her as I was reading the rest of the comments.

What is the requirement for mass murder? 3 more more? Yates qualifies for that.

We don't think of women murdering family members as being mass murderers.

1:30 PM, May 03, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Helen:
It always fascinated me that prior to Columbine, during the late 1990's school shootings, the articles would discuss how only men committed these murders,

I think this is largely due to stereotyping.

A stereotype says that women are kinder than men.

Another stereotype says that women are less rational than men.

The catch is that the people who most strongly object to the second stereotype still have reason to promote the first. So it is a bit more persistent, and rare events are likely to be interpreted in accordance with it.

1:50 PM, May 03, 2007  
Anonymous BrianNYC said...

Anon wrote: "I think that Dr. Helen is taking the true feminist view. There won't be equality until there is equal responsibility being taken for our behavior."

In context, Helen is a stronger defender of "feminism" than the vagina-friendly, liberal professor who was quoted. If Helen has the honest ability to spot the water damage before a liberal professor can paint over it, maybe the wall of feminism can be salvaged.

2:08 PM, May 03, 2007  
Anonymous TMink said...

I wrote: "I do learn things here."

And my new harasser (is that even a word?)wrote:

"Like wipe your own little one's asses, and not bitch when some older lady objects to doing it on class time??"

No, I wipped lots of asses before today! Goodness, I wonder how many? The cool thing about triplets is that you get your ass wiping done in a shorter amount of time. The less cool thing is you spend more time per day wiping asses. (OK, there is another ass wipe comment that I am not going to make because I promised to be more civil. Do I break it by this parenthetical comment?)

For the record, the woman in question was in her early 20s, and no ass wiping was required from her or asked of her! Urination, the voiding of record as reported here repeatedly, does not require wiping. Handwashing is requested and encouraged, but since urine is sterile and has disenfectant qualities, not absolutley required.

No dear anon, I am learning how to respond to unhinged criticism and attacks on my family and myself in a cheerful, effective manner. Thanks for doing your part.

Trey

2:13 PM, May 03, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Trey:
Again, this is not about you.
What part of "get yourself a support group" do you not understand?

2:35 PM, May 03, 2007  
Blogger TMink said...

Cool article, it starts here:
http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/female_mass_murderer/1.html

A good excerpt asks why women mass murderers get less attention: "That may be due, at least in part, to an American myth about "female virtue," as Patricia Pearson hypothesizes in her book, When She Was Bad: How and Why Women Get Away With Murder. Pearson points out that while people in general tend to view women as non-aggressive, in fact, "women commit the majority of child homicides in the United States, a greater share of physical child abuse, an equal rate of sibling violence and assaults on the elderly, about a quarter of child sexual abuse, an overwhelming share of the killing of newborns, and a fair preponderance of spousal assaults."

Whoa, I did not know about the physical child abuse statistic. An FBI guy talks about the stereotype of women as nurturers, but nobody got to how scarry it is to think of women as being the main abusers and killers of children.

All in all, a good overview of the topic from a good source.

Trey

3:09 PM, May 03, 2007  
Blogger Mercurior said...

and it wasnt really dr helen, who said the comment, about not knowing female killers it was John Jay.

and how most of the information focuses on men, when as i stated there are women killers.

its all about the perception, that violence is only ever caused by men, well we who know that there are evil women out there, how about a bit of equality, not all women are angels, some are devils.

i like trey as well, we may not agree on some things, but he is intelligent, and i have learned things from his comments.

a troll is someone who insults others by hiding behind anonymous names

3:26 PM, May 03, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't think Andrea Yates counts as a "mass murderer". She was temporarily insane and it was a one time event (a psychotic episode in a moment of delusion while on severe meds). Are pre-meditation, sanity, and multiple events parts of the "mass murderer" definition, as opposed to the temporarily deranged? Seems like two different words/phrases are needed here.

Another example: the Oklahoma city bomber is premeditated, while Yates and even Cho seem to have just temporarily flipped out in a severe psychotic moment.

Does the legal system have different definitions, and hence punishments? Same question for the mental health system.

5:23 PM, May 03, 2007  
Anonymous TMink said...

I just read that most in the mental health fields need 4 dead for the murders to count as a "mass murder." Andrea killed her 5 children, so she would qualify.

I do not think that mental problems or insanity give you a pass on meeting the criteria, so Andrea Yates would indeed be considered a mass murderer as would the VT killer.

Trey

5:53 PM, May 03, 2007  
Anonymous george weiss said...

one word:

infanticide

6:13 PM, May 03, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There have been a number of female suicide-bombers among the Chechens. A team of them brought-down 2 airplanes in August 2004; others blew-up trains in the Moscow subway.

In fact, it's even been suggested that females are a majority of Chechen suicide bombers.

6:17 PM, May 03, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

To all,

Mass murder when committed by an individual(s) is the killing of several people in one setting. The definition of mass murder varies by state, here in Tennessee, it is the killing of three or more persons in a single incidence. A mass murderer generally differs from a serial killer who kills one person at a time and then has a cooling off period and kills again, usually more for sexual reasons, such as Ted Bundy. The motivations for these types of murders are generally different.

6:53 PM, May 03, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon 5:23,

Cho bringing chains to bar doors is not "premeditated"?

Perhaps you need to be pre-medicated.

10:59 PM, May 03, 2007  
Blogger jw said...

tmink said: "I think it is something else too. It is too frightening to think of women as possible dangerous sociopaths and too comforting to think of them as incapable of sadistic violence."

Yes, I quite agree. This too is a form of sexism. It is a view of the female which is unrealisticly pure, holy and kind. In other words, sexism in favor of the female which is a thing that often hurts the male.

BTW: In reference to the statistics on parents abusing / killing kids.

The group 'single mothers' includes a fair sized group who are not like the rest. When these women are added to the general women's statistics, it distorts the women's data. I've long thought it grossly unfair to compare the lone mother - lone father data due to the size of the "doesn't fit" group in the lone mother data, (although I have done it to annoy a misandrous person).

Adding true equality to our legal and social systems would fix the problem and save a fair number of children's lives.

4:00 AM, May 04, 2007  
Anonymous armchair activist said...

then there are people who beleive they re doing right, or gods work, but there reasoning, is based of false information.

they dont "know" its wrong, because of the self justification.

andrea yates, "beleived" she was sending her children to a better place(heaven before they could sin), so in her mind, I STRESS HER MIND, she was justified in doing it. when it was very wrong in reality. she knew right from wrong, but thats just a personal opinion, based on pre existing ideas.

the witch trials that burned and hanged people, to them it was logical, when in reality it was dumb.

"the mass murderer kills groups of people at once, whereas the serial killer individualizes his or her murders. The serial killer continues to hurt and murder victims" http://www.serialhomicide.com/defining-serial-killers.htm

a persons beleif defines who they are, if they beleive they are sending old and sick people to relieve their suffering, in their minds they are justified in doing it. like harold shipman a doctor who probably killed over 200 elderly men and women.

its wrong, but insanity, knowing right from wrong is a very very grey area.

4:07 AM, May 04, 2007  
Blogger Mercurior said...

heres an interesting site about female serial killers

http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/428/428lect11.htm

Hickey's (2002) subsample of 62 females out of 399 serial killers used the following methods and motives.

Methods Motives
1. Poison (80%)
2. Shooting (20%)
3. Bludgeoning (16%)
4. Suffocation (16%)
5. Stabbing (11%)
6. Drowning (5%)

4:15 AM, May 04, 2007  
Anonymous linsee said...

Virginia has a limit of one gun per month, so Cho bought one, waited 30 days, and bought a second one. Hardly "flipped out one moment."

6:16 AM, May 04, 2007  
Anonymous michael i said...

News outlets that would never hesitate to neuter a man in the saving professions by referring to him as a firefighter instead of as a fireman or police officer instead of as a policeman were uninhibited about calling attention to Cho's sex by naming him a "gunman" instead of a "shooter," "triggerman" rather than "attacker," or "bad guy" instead of "criminal".

The prevalence of such sexist language in media reports of crime clouds and biases the thinking of even sophisticated people.

8:14 AM, May 04, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

michael i illustrates the glories of the comments on this blog: the longer they go on, the crazier the men-as-victims crowd gets.

8:55 AM, May 04, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Tell me, anon 8:55, what's the boundary between claiming victimhood and demanding justice? It seems to me that the boundary moves depending the gender of the claimant.

Rusty.

10:28 AM, May 04, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

No gender so much as class and race.

You're late to this pity party

11:01 AM, May 04, 2007  
Anonymous Jim said...

"michael i illustrates the glories of the comments on this blog: the longer they go on, the crazier the men-as-victims crowd gets."

He has a long, long way to go to mauch the silliness of the women-as-victims crowd for that last 5,000 years.

12:17 PM, May 04, 2007  
Blogger Cham said...

They say that 90% of prison inmates have some sort of psychological problem. I agree. I doubt anyone aspires to be a murderer or a mass murderer, so most of them have issues be it Andrea Yates, Ted Bundy or Mary Winkler.

Yes, most serial killers are men, but every once in a while a woman will do more than a few kills, I don't think anyone disputes that. Woman are more likely to perform a passive aggressive crime (as discussed before in this blog) as prisons are filled with bad check writing women. Some woman killers wil poison their victims.

But let's get back to Mary Winkler and Andrea Yates for a minute. I get the feeling that neither one of these ladies felt they were committing a crime when they killed. My guess is that they felt they would get a free pass not only because they were female but also because they were "christian" church-going mothers. Our culture tends to put these types on a pedestal, hence the attitude from both of them that they couldn't possibly be breaking a law or doing wrong.

12:38 PM, May 04, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"He has a long, long way to go to mauch the silliness of the women-as-victims crowd for that last 5,000 years."

Some of the comments on this blog are sure trying to hurry it along, though, arent' they? If women-as-victims is so silly, why would you encourage men-as-victims?

12:55 PM, May 04, 2007  
Anonymous Cousin Dave said...

cham, my apologies for being slow, but I'm still having trouble figuring out what you're getting at. Making excuses for one's own improper behavior is not, I don't think, recognized as a mental illness in itself. On that basis, I don't think that either Mary Winkler or Andrea Yates deserve a pass. They had both demonstrated in the past that they knew right from wrong, so the fact that they may have lost it for a moment does not, to me, resolve them of either legal or moral guilt. (And it's complicated by the fact that the criminal defense industry has become highly proficient at training defendants to mimic the symptoms of various mental illnesses; we don't know the extent to which Winkler or Yates were coached in this regard.) But maybe that's the very point you were trying to make; if so, my apologies.

Of course, there is a difference between the medical diagnosis and the legal treatment. There are in fact many things that can cause people to temporarily lose what we would consider their sanity. However, most states no longer permit "temporary insanity" as a defense. In part, this is probably because that defense has been so widely abused, but I think the other part of it is that there was never really a solid concept of what defensible insanity actually was. And more to the point, if someone did suffer such a condition, what do you do with them? The prison system is clearly not meant to be a mental health treatment system. But, even assuming that such a thing really exists (which I have my doubts about), a person who can lose their ability to tell right from wrong to the extent that they could commit a murder without realizing that what they are doing is wrong, is a person who is too dangerous to be allowed out in society. At some point, protection of the public has to be considered.

So what do you do with such people? The legal authority to confine them for life is murky at best, and so many of them are often freed after a few years. And we have the principle (a well-founded principle, in general) that no person can be forced to accept a treatment against their will. So, like Cho, they get various medicines prescribed, but they either abuse them or they don't take them. And they get appointments with therapists, but like Cho, they don't show up.

I just wonder what can be done with it. And within the constraints of our existing laws, I'm drawing a blank. The only thing I can come up is, to put it nicely, involuntarily administered treatment. But there's a lot of danger in going down that path.

2:02 PM, May 04, 2007  
Anonymous Cousin Dave said...

BTW, this anonytroll is making the whole blog unreadable. We've got one person on here who comes in anonymously, is generally the first person to post on every topic, and never does anything other than insult the blog host and the other commeters. Repeatedly. As in 10=15 posts in a row. It's a little creepy, if you ask me.

2:04 PM, May 04, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

helen said:

"Do women kill less often than men? Of course..."

And what is the reason for this, helen?

2:08 PM, May 04, 2007  
Anonymous TMink said...

Cousin Dave wrote: "And it's complicated by the fact that the criminal defense industry has become highly proficient at training defendants to mimic the symptoms of various mental illnesses."

Agreed. Also, too many people in the psychology field have become court whores. Psychology is a wonderful tool for understanding why someone acts the way they do, but it is misused in excusing people's behavior in my opinion.

The abuse excuse is a prime example. Most people who are sexually, physically or emotionally abused do not respond with violence. Most domestic violence survivors do not kill their perp either, but in the public's eye these histories have become acceptable reasons for vicious acting out or even murder.

It is a real problem.

Trey

2:25 PM, May 04, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

One person, Cousin Dave? Nae...multi-trolls. If you really don't see what the multi-trolls poke fun at, maybe it's because you're a man. As this blog so eagerly points out, men are different from women. Women seem to read this blog differently than men do. You men, you're just all so busy with your testosterone that you miss some clues.

2:27 PM, May 04, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

http://wjz.com/topstories/local_story_123141818.html

An article from today about a pair of junior high girls who have been arrested with bomb making materials.

I must be getting old. I just can't imagine how a pair of junior high aged girls not only conceives such a plot, but get access to materials to carry it out. Scary times we live in.

3:15 PM, May 04, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

But can you conceive of junior high boys doing that?

3:24 PM, May 04, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Firecrackers in the toilet? Yes. Phoning in a false scare to amuse themselves with the excitement of an evacuation? Yes. Either gender.

Something like this? No. Not the boys either. How do they even get their hands on bomb making materials?

3:50 PM, May 04, 2007  
Anonymous Cousin Dave said...

Trey: James Randi made the point multiple times that scientists in general are not very good at detecting hoaxes. The usual explanation for this is the nature of what they study: subatomic particles may be difficult to understand, but they do not tell lies. I had written on a previous thread that, as far as I know, therapists are generally not trained to recognize deliberate deception in patients.

And yes, there are too many therapists who are all too willing to make excuses for anyone's behavior as long as they are well paid for it. The scary thing is that such therapists seem to be able to delude themselves, and others, that they are providing a valuable service. Part of the answer to this has to be to establish some standards for such examinations. But I don't know how that will ever be accomplished -- the psychiatric industry seems disinclined to do so, and most legal people don't have enough expertise in the subject to know how to go about it.

4:12 PM, May 04, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

To All,

Please do not feed the trolls such as anonymous 2:27. I do not want to turn on moderation but will if this "concerned" troll continues. Thanks to all the regular commenters and newcomers who are here to hold a decent conversation. However, there are those who will always try to hijack threads to suit their purposes. Let's try not to play along.

4:18 PM, May 04, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Of the six comments following 2:27, Helen is the only one to mention that comment.

10:09 PM, May 04, 2007  
Blogger Cham said...

Cousin Dave, my apologies but I have a lot going on at the moment and don't have time to write an indepth response to you. Perhaps I was a little vague but the gist of what I was saying is that I am getting sick and tired of the good-christian-mother-as-victim killer. Perhaps if these types were actuallly treated like everyone else instead of something special they would be less likely to break the law, or do harm to someone else.

12:54 AM, May 05, 2007  
Blogger Dogwood said...

How do they even get their hands on bomb making materials?


The local hardware store, usually.

Its not that hard to do. Back in high school, my friends and I made our own firecrackers using gun powder, cardboard tubes, glue, and some fuses from smaller firecrackers or model rocket engines.

Harmless fun in the 1980s. Acts of terrorism today, probably.

4:35 PM, May 05, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Every couple of years or so, boys are found out to be building pipe bombs in their garage. An explosion is usually the tip off. I imagine that the boys are thinking about the BOOM, not necessarily about hurting someone. Stupid boys not to think ahead, but still just boys.

6:32 PM, May 05, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The whole problem with this debate is the definition of "mass" -- as in murder.

If it is necessary to directly kill multiple persons, then of course women will always look innocent.

Women learn as girls how to do their dirty work through indirect violence, passive-aggression, third-party surrogates, etc.

Queen Isabela of Spain sent off Christopher Columbus to find her riches in the Indies. Four million Caribs and Amerindians died for her vanity. (Yeah, ancient Herstory, who cares?)

During WWI, women paraded with white flowers to shame the men who had not already enlisted in the great slaughter to "volunteer" ...

Over 99% of current Iraq war casualties are men. Because women are not required to register for selective service, and, if volunteering, are typically in non-combat posts, this amounts to another form of indirect female violence against men.

As long as the code of Chivalry exists, women will have their stealth weapon for serial killing, and they will continue to use it, while appearing innocent.

I'm sure that Dr. Helen experienced her girlfriend-wars during her adolescence ... all the rumor-mongering, reputation slamming, steal her boyfriend, ostracize her, lie about her... etc.

Women in general do not need to commit mass murder.

Their sophisticated psychological warfare tactics make it unnecessary, because their prey self-destruct long before direct physical violence is required.

Hence, male suicide rates are seven times greater than the fairer sex.

I would expect any reputable forensic psychologist to acknowledge the different and subtle gendered modes of violence leading to mass mortality.

10:17 PM, May 05, 2007  
Anonymous TMink said...

"Women in general do not need to commit mass murder."

Well who really needs to? I think your point is that women are so crafty and sinister that they just torture people to death using their wimmenly wiles. Replacing one set of gender stereotypes with another is not very helpful I think.

Being on average, less physically strong than males, women have had to develop many laternatives to physical fights. But I have never blamed male suicide on women. We males tend to do things in dramatic, straightforward ways. Good for baseball, not so good for attempting suicide because we complete it more. But I think it has much more to do with testosterone than women.

Trey

12:37 AM, May 06, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I imagine a lot of differences are simply due to contingency.

If direct aggression is more effective for males than females, and indirect aggression is more effective for females than males, people are going to learn some pretty obvious lessons.

It seems unrealistic to complain about people being sensible.

10:55 AM, May 06, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

BTW, this anonytroll is making the whole blog unreadable. We've got one person on here who comes in anonymously, is generally the first person to post on every topic, and never does anything other than insult the blog host and the other commeters. Repeatedly. As in 10=15 posts in a row. It's a little creepy, if you ask me.

Um...
you've got a multi-troll invasion going on here. Trust me.

11:58 AM, May 06, 2007  
Anonymous TMink said...

Anon wrote: "It seems unrealistic to complain about people being sensible."

That struck me as funny! Funny hah hah, not funny peculiar. It is certainly unrealistic to complain about people being sensible when they are indeed being sensible. And it is unrealistic when so few people are sensible.

Trey

12:22 PM, May 06, 2007  
Anonymous TMink said...

Sorry should have stuck this in with the last post: Anon further wrote: "If direct aggression is more effective for males than females, and indirect aggression is more effective for females than males, people are going to learn some pretty obvious lessons."

I just read a cool quote on the subject. Allow me please. "In a sense the brain was selected by culture. It is not that the human brain came first and culture, or rather man's capacity for culture, emanated from it; and this carries the additional implication that the human brain probably could not effectively function outside of culture. (Miller, States of Mind.)"

So gender based behavioral and brain differences interact with culture and they shape each other. In the broader view as suggested by Miller, brain differences are ultimately sensible, or they die out.

Perhaps we are in a cultural change that is out of synch with the brain changes or vice versa. I bet on culture as it seems to change more rapidly with faster communication of cultural ideas while the brain is still stuck with death and reproduction, a slow process.

Trey

12:29 PM, May 06, 2007  
Anonymous Bugs said...

Culture, schmultzure. Girls have cooties. Who needs 'em?

Except Dr. Helen, of course. She's nice...

5:42 PM, May 07, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

helen said:

"Do women kill less often than men? Of course..."

And what is the reason for this, helen?


Why do you never answer this question, helen? I asked the same thing on a previous related post of yours.

5:51 PM, May 09, 2007  
Blogger Jeff said...

I highly recommend Murder of Innocence, the definitive account of Laurie Dann's life and crimes. The really impressive thingf about the book is that it details her odd behavior and warning signs in the years before her murder spree. Well written and unjustly neglected!

2:40 PM, May 10, 2007  
Blogger jolynna said...

I enjoyed your article. I also appreciate Mercurior's links, information and stats.

I have read that more women are responsible for the deaths of children than men, but would like a link to a definitive study or authority.

Thanks to anyone who can help.

9:55 PM, February 18, 2008  
Blogger DvntWriter said...

I recently wrote a blog asking the question: Why you think so many are turning to guns as their means of solving their issues. One comment mentioned several plausible reasons, and asked if I could think of any female mass murders who used guns (and were not suffering from some form of mental illness or fulfilling a dependency role).

I know there have been cases of female mass murders in the past, but are there present day cases who do not suffer from mental disturbance or dependency - who are say, like recent high school/college shooters? Young, "normal," have friends, are doing well, etc.?

So far in my Google search, I'm not finding any...

11:50 AM, March 06, 2008  
Blogger 徵信社robin said...

徵信社, 感情挽回, 挽回感情, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 捉姦, 徵信公司, 通姦, 通姦罪, 抓姦, 抓猴, 捉猴, 捉姦, 監聽, 調查跟蹤, 反跟蹤, 外遇問題, 徵信, 捉姦, 女人徵信, 外遇問題, 女子徵信, 外遇, 徵信公司, 徵信網, 徵信, 徵信社, 外遇蒐證, 抓姦, 抓猴, 捉猴, 調查跟蹤, 反跟蹤, 感情挽回, 挽回感情, 外遇沖開, 徵信, 徵信, 徵信社, 抓姦, 徵信, 徵信社, 外遇, 外遇蒐證, 外遇, 通姦, 通姦罪, 贍養費, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信社, 抓姦, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信, 徵信公司, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信公司, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信公司, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信, 徵信公司, 徵信, 徵信社

11:27 AM, February 04, 2009  
Blogger look said...

情趣用品,
性感睡衣,
免費視訊聊天,
視訊交友網,
美姬圖影,
情境坊歡愉用品,
花美姬情趣用品,
成人圖片,
臺灣情色網,
嘟嘟情人色網,
色情網站,
情境坊歡愉用品,
徵信,
徵信公司,
徵信,
外遇,
徵信,
徵信,
抓姦,
徵信,
外遇,
徵信,
徵信社,
徵信社,
抓姦,
徵信社,
徵信社,
徵信社,
,
,
整型,
視訊聊天,
視訊交友,
AV女優,
色情,
A片,
A片,
情趣用品,
情色,
A片,
色情影片,
情趣用品,
A片,
AV女優,
視訊聊天室,
聊天,
情趣用品,
情惑用品性易購,
情侶歡愉用品,
A片,
情趣,
情惑用品性易購,
辣妹視訊,
自慰套,
情侶歡愉用品,
寄情築園小遊戲,
aio交友愛情館,
美女視訊,
色情A片,
情趣用品,
徵信社,
情趣用品,
A片,
美女視訊,
色情A片,
AV女優,
A片,
辣妹視訊,
自慰套,
情侶歡愉用品,

1:03 PM, March 15, 2009  
Blogger selina said...

福~
「朵
語‧,最一件事,就。好,你西.........................................................................................................................................................................................

9:28 AM, March 16, 2009  
Blogger mmbox said...

2008真情寫真aa片免費看捷克論壇微風論壇大眾論壇plus論壇080視訊聊天室情色視訊交友90739美女交友-成人聊天室色情小說做愛成人圖片區豆豆色情聊天室080豆豆聊天室 小辣妹影音交友網台中情人聊天室桃園星願聊天室高雄網友聊天室新中台灣聊天室中部網友聊天室嘉義之光聊天室基隆海岸聊天室中壢網友聊天室南台灣聊天室南部聊坊聊天室台南不夜城聊天室南部網友聊天室屏東網友聊天室台南網友聊天室屏東聊坊聊天室雲林網友聊天室大學生BBS聊天室網路學院聊天室屏東夜語聊天室孤男寡女聊天室一網情深聊天室心靈饗宴聊天室流星花園聊天室食色男女色情聊天室真愛宣言交友聊天室情人皇朝聊天室上班族成人聊天室上班族f1影音視訊聊天室哈雷視訊聊天室080影音視訊聊天室38不夜城聊天室援交聊天室080080哈啦聊天室台北已婚聊天室已婚廣場聊天室 夢幻家族聊天室摸摸扣扣同學會聊天室520情色聊天室QQ成人交友聊天室免費視訊網愛聊天室愛情公寓免費聊天室拉子性愛聊天室柔情網友聊天室哈啦影音交友網哈啦影音視訊聊天室櫻井莉亞三點全露寫真集123上班族聊天室尋夢園上班族聊天室成人聊天室上班族080上班族聊天室6k聊天室粉紅豆豆聊天室080豆豆聊天網新豆豆聊天室080聊天室免費音樂試聽流行音樂試聽免費aa片試看免費a長片線上看色情貼影片免費a長片

8:53 AM, March 22, 2009  
Blogger mmbox said...

本土成人貼圖站大台灣情色網台灣男人幫論壇A圖網嘟嘟成人電影網火辣春夢貼圖網情色貼圖俱樂部台灣成人電影絲襪美腿樂園18美女貼圖區柔情聊天網707網愛聊天室聯盟台北69色情貼圖區38女孩情色網台灣映像館波波成人情色網站美女成人貼圖區無碼貼圖力量色妹妹性愛貼圖區日本女優貼圖網日本美少女貼圖區亞洲風暴情色貼圖網哈啦聊天室美少女自拍貼圖辣妹成人情色網台北女孩情色網辣手貼圖情色網AV無碼女優影片男女情色寫真貼圖a片天使俱樂部萍水相逢遊戲區平水相逢遊戲區免費視訊交友90739免費視訊聊天辣妹視訊 - 影音聊天網080視訊聊天室日本美女肛交美女工廠貼圖區百分百貼圖區亞洲成人電影情色網台灣本土自拍貼圖網麻辣貼圖情色網好色客成人圖片貼圖區711成人AV貼圖區台灣美女貼圖區筱萱成人論壇咪咪情色貼圖區momokoko同學會視訊kk272視訊情色文學小站成人情色貼圖區嘟嘟成人網嘟嘟情人色網 - 貼圖區免費色情a片下載台灣情色論壇成人影片分享免費視訊聊天區微風 成人 論壇kiss文學區taiwankiss文學區

8:53 AM, March 22, 2009  
Blogger nini said...

85cc免費影城 愛情公寓正妹牆川藏第一美女 成人影片 情色交友網 美女視訊 美女視訊 視訊情人高雄網 JP成人影城 383成人影城 aa片免費a片下載 a片線上看aa片免費看 ※a片線上試看※sex520免費影片※ aa片免費看 BT成人論壇 金瓶影片交流區 自拍美女聊天室 aa片免費a片下載 SEX520免費影片 免費a片 日本美女寫真集 sex520aa免費影片 sex520aa免費影片 BT成人網 Hotsee免費視訊交友 百分百貼影片區 SEX520免費影片 免費視訊聊天室 情人視訊高雄網 星光情色討論版 正妹牆 383成人影城 線上85cc免費影城 85cc免費影城 85cc免費影城 85cc免費影城 ※免費視訊聊天室※ ※免費視訊聊天室※ 免費視訊聊天室 85cc免費影片 85cc免費影片 080苗栗人聊天室 080苗栗人聊天室 080中部人聊天室 080中部人聊天室 免費a片下載 免費a片 AA片免費看 aa片免費看 aa片免費看 aa片免費看 aa片免費看 日本av女優影片 av女優 av女優無碼影城 av女優 av女優 百分百成人圖片 百分百成人圖片 視訊情人高雄網 電話交友 影音電話交友 絕色影城 絕色影城 夜未眠成人影城 夜未眠成人影城 色咪咪影片網 色咪咪影片網 色咪咪影片網 色咪咪影片網 色咪咪影片網 免費色咪咪貼影片 免費色咪咪貼影片 色情遊戲 色情遊戲 色情遊戲 色情遊戲 影音視訊交友網 視訊交友網 080視訊聊天室 ※免費視訊聊天室※ ※免費視訊聊天室※ 視訊聊天室 成人影音視訊聊天室 ut影音視訊聊天室 ※免費視訊聊天室※ 視訊ukiss聊天室視訊ukiss聊天室 視訊交友90739 視訊交友90739 情人視訊網 168視訊美女 168視訊美女 168視訊美女 視訊美女館 視訊美女館 免費視訊美女網 小高聊天室 小高聊天室 aio交友聊天室 aio交友聊天室 交友聊天室 交友聊天室 線上a片 線上a片 線上a片 線上a片 線上a片 免費線上a片 免費線上a片 嘟嘟成人網站 成人漫畫 情色文學 嘟嘟成人網 成人貼圖區 情色文學成人小說 微風成人區 情色貼圖區 免費視訊聊天 免費成人圖片區 愛情公寓 愛情公寓聊天室 寄情築園小遊戲 免費aa片線上看 aa片免費看 情色SXE聊天室 SEX情色遊戲 色情A片 免費下載 av女優 俱樂部 情色論壇 辣妹視訊 情色貼圖網 免費色情 聊天室 情人視訊聊天室 免費a片成人影城 免費a片-aa片免費看 0204貼圖區 SEX情色 交友聊天-線上免費 女優天堂 成人交友網 成人情色貼圖區 18禁 -女優王國 080視訊美女聊天室 080視訊聊天室 視訊交友90739 免費a片 aio 視訊交友網 成人影城-免費a片※免費視訊聊天※85cc免費影片日本線上免費a片 免費色咪咪影片免費色咪咪影片aaa片免費看影片aaa片免費看成人影城免費色咪咪影片

4:16 PM, April 05, 2009  
Blogger 天天看正妹 said...

"免費視訊美女520sexy girl
sogo論壇aa片免費看
免費線上 aa 片試看85CC
情色18 禁sex520免費a長片
av女優影片情色文學
日本av淫蕩人妻免費漫畫帝國
777美女dvd無碼av女優
視訊辣妹girl5320 貼片貼圖區
本土自拍影片qq 美美色網漫畫
百分百成人圖片avdvd
視訊辣妹找援交
dodo豆豆聊天室
成人影片下載免費線上a片
sex999日本美女寫真集
色情漫畫777美女dvdav
小護士免費 aa 片試看
網路自拍美女聊天室天堂
080聊天網桃園天堂
雪之深戀 080聊天網水之浪漫
sex888入口免費性影片觀賞
高中生援交偷拍自拍限制級色情 片
aa 片試看免費卡通
百分百成人情色圖片
嘟嘟情人網影片
內衣模特兒寫真成人圖貼
免費視訊78論壇
拓網學生族視訊777美女
辣妹有約辣妹no31314視訊
dudu sex免費 aa 片試看
成人a影片論壇
"

3:27 AM, April 09, 2009  
Blogger 天天看正妹 said...

免費視訊聊天
ut聊天室辣妹視訊
kk777視訊俱樂部
UT影音視訊聊天室
吉澤明步
85cc免費影片
立花里子無碼
aaa片免費看短片
美女視訊
台南視訊,080情人網
日本免費視訊
aa片免費看
視訊網愛聊天室
影音視訊交友
咆哮小老鼠分享論壇
sex520免費影片
aio辣妺視訊
百事無碼a片
jp成人影片
免費av成人 情色
免費視訊美女色美眉部落格
168論壇視訊辣妹
免費色咪咪視訊網pc交友
s383視訊玩美女人
34c高雄視訊聊天
yam交友辣妹妹影音視訊聊天室
aaa俱樂部
jp成人
Show-live視訊聊天室
免費視訊辣妹
QQ美女視訊秀
live173影音視訊聊天室
真人視訊交友
辣妹妹影音視訊聊天室
倉井空免費影片
UT視訊美女交友
視訊美女 寫真
視訊情色網
亞洲東洋影片avdvd
ut聊天室kk俱樂部視訊
激情網愛聊天
秘密情人影音視訊網
av無碼,一夜情,偷拍,免費影片下載
色漫畫帝國sex888免費看影
拓網視訊交友
34c視訊網愛聊天室
xxx383美女寫真迷愛聊天
sex999免費影片兼職援交
辣妹視訊網
免費視訊78論壇
情色香港論壇
我愛78論壇情色情趣 商品
美女show-live視訊情色
美眉共和國080情人網
s383情色大網咖視訊
aaa免費看影片
kk777視訊俱樂部
小魔女影城
sexy diamond sex888入口
104免費成人情色文學小說
免費成人影片,g點
彩虹無碼av女優
成人免費視訊 完美女人
美女短片免費試看
tw33 影片交流
南台灣視訊網愛聊天室
sex888movie影城
18 禁亞洲名模瘋情
洪爺免費線上歐美A片段觀看
情人辣妹影片視訊直播
QQ美女視訊秀
hi5 tv免費影片sex貼片網
新浪視訊
日本視訊小魔女自拍
美女交友影音視訊聊天室
domain hilive.tv限制級
sex888免費看影片波霸美女寫真
love104影音live秀
甜心寶貝直播貼片自慰
捷克論壇
桃園援交小魔女自拍天堂
裸體高雄援交妹
gogo2sex桃園視訊妹
85cc情色視訊交友
視訊妹迷愛聊天
34c情人視訊網愛聊天室
南台灣視訊貓貓論壇
視訊美女
21sex美女視訊交友
34c美女寶貝視訊
免費a片線上觀看s383視訊
視訊交友90739,限制級,777美女dvd
免費成人影片,日本美女寫真集
080情人網,本土自拍貼圖
ut同志交友網
禁地論壇比基尼辣妹
dvd線上aa片免費看
show-live名模視訊
情人小魔女自拍
視訊自拍美女聊天室

3:27 AM, April 09, 2009  
Blogger 天天看正妹 said...

85cc免費影城aa的滿18歲影片85cc免費影片aaa免費看影片aaaaa片俱樂部影片免費 a 片85cc免費影片aa影片下載城微風成人av論壇免費a片aaa片免費看影片aaa片免費看短片小魔女免費影片免費視訊聊天 a片免費看a 免費影片觀賞免費視訊聊天室微風成人85cc免費影片85cc成人影城免費成人視訊亞洲禁果影城aa的滿18歲影片A片-sex女優王國aaaaa片俱樂部免費卡通影片線上觀看線上免費a片觀看A片-sex女優王國情色偷拍免費A片免費A片免費看 aa的滿18歲影片aaa影片下載城日本免費視訊av俱樂部後宮0204movie免費影片免費 a 片ut聊天室辣妹視訊情色美女視訊聊天室免費卡通影片線上觀看 ut交友成人視訊免費A片av1688影音視訊天堂aaa的滿18歲卡通影片s383情色大網咖視訊美女館aaaa 片俱樂部免費a片卡通aaaa片免費看影片aaa片免費看短片 杜蕾斯成人UT影音視訊聊天室 免費視訊78論壇免費aaaaa片俱樂部影片aaaa彩虹頻道免費影片aa影片下載城色漫畫帝國kk777視訊俱樂部美女視訊5278論壇ut聊天室aio交友愛情館免費視訊聊天成人a圖片區小說頻道彩虹頻道免費影片jp成人小魔女免費影城免費 aa 片試看情色文學A片-無碼援交東京熱一本道亞洲東洋影片gay片免費下載卡通aa片免費看成人影片分享小魔女免費影片視訊高雄情人聊天室34c卡通美女a片免費試看av免費影片,視訊聊天go2av免費影片情色 網站sex女優王國高中生援交偷拍自拍限制級色情 片plus論壇080情人網免費av影片免費a片卡通浪漫月光論壇免費aa片avdvd無碼影音視訊交友 免費視訊辣妹情人視訊網免費視訊辣妹 免費視訊78論壇台灣kiss情色貼圖區sex免費看影片彩虹論壇免費視訊聊天室 咆哮小老鼠分享論壇月宮貼圖色妹妹嘟嘟情人色網日本美女寫真集,kk視訊成人情色 視訊21sexsexy辣妹視訊百分百成人情色圖片ut辣妹哈啦視訊聊天室 素人自拍免費影片線上觀賞論壇男人的最愛中國性愛城avdvd無碼aaa免費看影片bt電影下載,免費成人片免費a片卡通dudu sex

3:27 AM, April 09, 2009  
Blogger 123456 said...

广州托盘复合托盘食品托盘天津木托盘胶合板托盘蜂窝纸托盘塑木托盘熏蒸木托盘木制托盘广东塑料托盘钢托盘钢制托盘栈板塑料栈板木栈板垫仓板托盘包装求购托盘天津托盘温州托盘山东托盘北京托盘上海木托盘塑胶托盘卡板纸卡板塑料卡板手推车推车机场手推车好孩子手推车液压手推车超市手推车医用手推车康贝手推车不锈钢手推车平板车电动平板车老虎车静音手推车平板手推车小推车模具架置物架堆垛架巧固架整理架物料整理架挂板架整理柜零件柜零件整理柜文件整理柜仓储笼仓库笼料箱塑料箱钢制料箱货箱整理箱塑料整理箱周转箱塑料周转箱防静电周转箱求购周转箱物流箱物料盒零件盒塑料零件盒卡板箱周转筐塑料周转筐周转箩登高车物流台车台车密集架档案密集架文件柜办公文件柜北京文件柜广州文件柜上海文件柜南京文件柜深圳文件柜钢制文件柜铁皮文件柜档案柜文件柜厂底图柜档案柜鞋柜储物柜更衣柜防火防磁柜防磁柜防火防磁文件柜图书架资料柜工具柜

6:47 AM, April 13, 2009  
Blogger 徵信 said...

外遇外遇外遇外遇外遇外遇外遇外遇外遇 外遇
外遇 外遇外遇 外遇 外遇
外遇 外遇 外遇
外遇


外遇 外遇
外遇
外遇 外遇外遇
外遇

外遇 外遇外遇 外遇 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 ,
外遇 外遇 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇外遇 外遇外遇 外遇 外遇

外遇 外遇

外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇劈腿劈腿劈腿劈腿劈腿劈腿劈腿劈腿喜帖囍帖卡片外遇外遇 外遇 外遇外遇 外遇
外遇 外遇 外遇 外遇剖析 外遇調查 外遇案例 外遇諮詢 偷情 第三者外遇話題 外遇發洩 感情挽回 徵信社 外遇心態 外遇 通姦 通姦罪 外遇徵信社徵信社外遇 外遇 抓姦徵信協會徵信公司 包二奶 徵信社 徵信 徵信社 徵信社 徵信社 徵信社 徵信 徵信 婚姻 婚前徵信 前科 個人資料 外遇 第三者 徵信社 偵探社 抓姦 偵探社 偵探社婚 偵探社 偵探社偵探家事服務家事服務家電維修家事服務家事服務家事服務家事服務家事服務持久持久持久持久持久持久持久離婚網頁設計徵信社徵信社徵信徵信社外遇離婚協議書劈腿持久持久持久持久持久劈腿剖析徵信徵信社外遇外遇外遇外遇徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信徵信社徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信公會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信公會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿

2:32 AM, April 21, 2009  
Blogger 1314 said...

視訊做愛視訊美女無碼A片情色影劇kyo成人動漫tt1069同志交友網ut同志交友網微風成人論壇6k聊天室日本 avdvd 介紹免費觀賞UT視訊美女交友..........................

11:13 PM, May 19, 2009  
Blogger 1122 said...

tvnet0204 我愛你視訊美女拳5 分鐘護半身視訊美女視訊交友愛戀之5 分鐘護半身視訊美女99 視訊美女主播 500 點99 視訊美女主播 500 點msn 視訊美女msn 視訊美女888 視訊美女聊天室888 視訊美女聊天室視訊美女 live0204視訊美女 live0204173liveshow 視訊美女視訊ukiss173liveshow 視訊美女0401 影音視訊美女聊天室0401 影音視訊美女聊天室視訊美女一對一視訊美女一對一0401 視訊美女

2:38 AM, June 08, 2009  

Post a Comment

<< Home