Friday, February 02, 2007

"She misses her daughters, but she's staying busy"

Yep, busy as a bee hanging out in bars after killing her husband; Mary Winkler confessed to killing her preacher husband in March of last year but instead of hanging out behind bars in prison, she is hanging out in bars around McMinnville, Tennessee partying with co-workers (Thanks to the reader who sent me this story):

Luis Correa was also in the New York Grill on New Year's Eve and took pictures of Winkler with his camera phone. He claims someone went over to Winkler's table and asked if she killed her husband. He said she answered yes, in a joking manner and everyone around her was laughing.

News 2 spoke with Winkler's manager at the dry cleaners where she's employed. Her manager said it was on New Year's Eve that he and Winkler went out to New York Grill. He also said, "She's not the preacher's wife. She might have used to be the preacher's wife, but he is dead now. She's not married; she is no body's wife."

The issue of Winkler and the murder case is a divisive issue in McMinnville. Some have supported her, saying she did everything the justice system asked of her and has every right to be part of the community. Others don't think that is enough.


In another article about the crime, ABC news reports:

What's striking to many outsiders is how accepting and supportive the majority of the community has been to Winkler.

That sense of forgiveness, community members say, stems from the town's Christian roots and from its tendency to give people the benefit of the doubt.

Winkler's daughters are currently living with Matt's parents.

"She misses her daughters, but she's staying busy," said Miller, of her sister. "She's the loving Mary we used to know."


Yes, it's always best if you miss your kids and you are up on murder charges to hang out in a bar and laugh it up--it boggles my mind what people are willing to forgive, depending on your race and/or gender.

Update: Winkler's attorney is outraged by the photos of his client smoking in a bar. The pictures of the alleged husband killer are up on YouTube here and a promo of the pictures by a Memphis TV station are here. What do you think--should the TV station have run these pics and story?

75 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

it boggles my mind what people are willing to forgive, depending on your race and/or gender.

Maybe she's got a great personality?

2:27 PM, February 02, 2007  
Anonymous TMink said...

I shake my head thinking "What if this was OJ?" And certainly part of the double standard is simply sexism. But I wonder how much is something more.

It is scarry to think of an abusive father, but MUCH more frightening to think of an abusive mother. Maybe too frightening to think about. Mom's own us for years, mom's and women have much more access to children than father's and men do. So if we think we can't trust women around children, it would be difficult to sleep at night because women have unfetterd access to children.

So maybe part of the double standard is that it is just too damn scarry to think of women as potential abusers. So we don't, unless we absolutely have to.

Trey

3:16 PM, February 02, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mothers don't have any more "access" to their children than fathers do. "Mom's" (sic) don't "own" us any more than fathers do.

p.s. It's "scary", not "scarry".

3:34 PM, February 02, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

p.s.s.
Bet he's not a real psychologist either.

Eh, Trey?

4:54 PM, February 02, 2007  
Anonymous Anon824 said...

Just earlier this week we read about a dad who has to pay child support for kids that DNA tests have proven are not his.

Meanwhile, a woman who admitted killing her husband is having a good 'ole time, doncha know.

Tell me again about that "glass ceiling" thingy?

5:35 PM, February 02, 2007  
Anonymous Jim said...

""Mom's" (sic) don't "own" us any more than fathers do."

That is quite simply false. I don't think you are lying, I think you are just uninformed.

You obviously have never been anyhwere near a family court. Count your blessings. Mothers are presumed to have the better right to raise children. Fathers get sole custody very rarely. (Joint custody is rare in this country.)There is almost no behavior on the part of a woman that that will result in the father getting custody - drug addiction, co-habiting with an abusive boyfriend - nothing. Judges generally hold unregenerate patriarchal views of the woman's role and of child rearing.

It is not unusual for men to have to agree to pay extra child support, beyond the usual schedule, for visitation time, time with their own children. In this type of negotiation the children are a bargaining chip belonging to the woman. That sounds like "ownership" to me. There is usually no requirement for any accounting for the use of this money, even though of course it is intended for the support of the children, so that the mother is free to spend every dime on herself without any repercussions, since there is no expectation that women will be self-supporting in this society which is why alimony (deferred prostitution payment) still exists. This is what I mean by unregenerate patriarchal views of women. That indicates that the money is held to be the property of the mother to maintain her property.

Please look into this matter further so that you don't go repeating falsehoods. After this, anything else will be dishonest.

6:49 PM, February 02, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

jim:

I practiced family law for 12 years. I'd say I'm informed. What do you do for a living?

anon 3:34

7:08 PM, February 02, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

anon 7:08

Oh yeh you practiced family law alright perhaps now you should practice genuflections as a prepartion for purgatory if you are lucky enough to make it there.

12:11 AM, February 03, 2007  
Blogger jw said...

The double standard is nasty and a threat to us all. What, to me, is worse, is the acceptance of the double standard; the feeling among so many that it is right to have two standards, a harsh one for males and a soft one for females.

3:13 AM, February 03, 2007  
Anonymous Friend of USA said...

"...That sense of forgiveness, community members say, stems from the town's Christian roots and from its tendency to give people the benefit of the doubt."

I'm a bit surprised ABC did not edit that part out,
but then again, when it fits their
"women-are-always-victims" pro-feminism liberal agenda,
the MSM does makes some exceptions.

8:40 AM, February 03, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ms.Winkler will go to trial, and we will see what she has in defense of the murder charges.

I'll wait until after the trial to form my opinions of her shotgun blast. I do believe some people are deserving of things that happen to them.

My opinion of her being seen at a public venue, a New Year's Eve party, won't wait: she made a mistake. Should've have stayed home, sans public alcohol.

But then again, so should have a lot of other people...

11:05 AM, February 03, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have continued to hope that I will see in my life time EQUAL justice for ALL who committ same like crimes. The Mary Winkler case has been bizarre from the beginning. Feminist biases have abound. Excuses for her behavior made ad nauseum.

These photos do not shock me. I have always felt the little downtrodden, hand holding murderer was nothing more than a smoke screen. What we saw in the past few months as Farese made his PR moves is nothing but a mirage and was as fake as Mary.

I am glad someone came forward and finally exposed this woman. To this day she doesnt care about her children. Its still all about Mary and her desires.

12:31 PM, February 03, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This was not only a one time event. The bar owner said Mary had been in 3-4 times and she sure looks right at home at the bar. Makes me believe that Mary drank and smoked before her several outings.

12:36 PM, February 03, 2007  
Blogger Dave said...

When did it become part of the Christian ethic to forgive murderers their actions? If that be the moral base from which these fools operate, I count my blessings, ironically, as it were, that I have no use for religion.

12:55 PM, February 03, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

As someone who lives in McMinnville, I do not judge someone, that is the courts job, that is Gods job, that is not my job. As the so called bar, it is no more than a local resturant, that offers drinks, This town is a dry town. Anyone who is so rude to take pictures and put them on national T.V. needs to look in the mirror. They are not much better then the person who is accused. She wasn't running down the street with a knife. Unless she is acting out as a public danger, people need to mind their own buisness. What someone won't do for a little attention

3:36 PM, February 03, 2007  
Blogger DRJ said...

It's not Christian to forgive someone before they acknowledge guilt, repent, and attempt restitution. It's called tolerance. It would be more accurate to describe this community's response as politically correct than Christian.

5:40 PM, February 03, 2007  
Blogger Bill Dalasio said...

You know, there's something seriously wrong with people's thinking when they can rationalize that the person who identified Ms. Winkler out partying is worthy of judgement, but not a woman who not only killed her husband, but can laugh about it is somehow exempt from public judgement.

6:01 PM, February 03, 2007  
Anonymous TMink said...

Let's see, most teachers are women.

Most daycare workers are women.

Most stay at home parents are women.

Most babysitters are women.

And you say women do not have more access to children than men? Indefensible.

And thanks for the spell check. I can hire you at minimum wage! Leave the thinking to those of us who can count though.

Trey

6:48 PM, February 03, 2007  
Anonymous anonymom said...

Perhaps men should take more of an interest in their children, then? I'm talking about men in general, here, so don't get your back up if you're the dad who changes diapers, cooks meals, and gives baths. Men in general don't babysit as teenagers, so when they have their own babies, they don't know much about caring for them. When they watch their wife change a diaper, they think it must be womanly intuition that gives her the know-how...and so they leave that job to the wife. Instead of recognizing that child care is a set of skills that can/must be learned and setting out to learn as much as they can, men (in general, again) sit back and let their wife take charge of all that. I can't wait until society stops marveling at dads who can change diapers (Oh, isn't he a GOOD dad!) and starts expecting men to pull their weight in the "parenthood."

So go ahead, all you manly men out there. Tell me what good dads you are and how you help your wife with the housework and child care.

As for the story about Mary Winkler in the bar...why do we trust that the press got this one so completely right when we suspect so much of their work is wrong?

10:39 PM, February 03, 2007  
Blogger Purple Avenger said...

I do believe some people are deserving of things that happen to them.

I've always been a big fan of vigilante lynch mobs and quick hangings too.

12:12 AM, February 04, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Some of us men do try to spend more time with our children - we are part of the 2 million-plus who are single fathers in America.

Unfortunately, based on their lobbying activities, women's groups seem to want us out of our children's lives.

Do you have an opinion about that, anonymom? You seem strangely silent on that topic.

So much for feminists wanting "equality".

Let's hear your excuses for the next female teacher who molests her students, or the next woman who murders her children and gets off with kid glove treatment from the press and justice system. Please - I look forward to your reply.

American feminists are the biggest hypocrites when it comes to fathers spending time with their children. "Anonymom" looks like one of the herd.

12:24 AM, February 04, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymom,

Your post is a joke. Men who do such things as you describe in a manner of normalcy and love it to boot are no more than a fifth column amongst men. Women seemingly never get it. There is a difference between vocation and job as there is a difference between the genders. A basic sociological construct is intra-labor and extra-labor. I will not even invoke tradition I will just simply say that extra-labor, that is working outside of the domestic sphere is best left to men. While the labor particular to the domestic sphrere is best left to women. This does not mean that there cannot be a 'cross-pollinization' of sorts but by and large the natural abilities of the sexes reach the highest level of cooperation, achievement and purpose (that is the production of children and their well-being) by taking part in this construct. And to set the record straight, that is if you have the temerity to proffer an opinion, the time for semantical gymnastics/games and the gender combat combat has ended; the female has lost, she has forgotten who she is and was while also losing what remained of their dignity. The children she absconded by calumny and jurisprudential corruption are strewn about wearing masks of tears and despair. So, the standard has been laid down and the time for empty rhetoric is past. You have had your time and it has come to an end. In fact your demise was presaged in 1910 when the 'feminist' movement was more equitable; that is before the death-dealers like Margaret Sanger perverted the original Suffragette message which was pro-family and pro-life. The book is entitled: "What's Wrong with the World?" by G.K. Chesterton and provides an overpowering rationality that destroys the fallacies proffered by the femifacists. You can read the book for free at the following url:

http://www.cse.dmu.ac.uk/~mward/gkc/books/whats_wrong.html

You would want to read Part Three: Feminism: or the mistake about women. Here is a noteworthy quote that I am sure will get your dander up:

"In all the old flowery and pastoral love-songs, those of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries especially, you will find a perpetual reproach against woman in the matter of her coldness; ceaseless and stale similes that compare her eyes to northern stars, her heart to ice, or her bosom to snow. Now most of us have always supposed these old and iterant phrases to be a mere pattern of dead words, a thing like a cold wall-paper. Yet I think those old cavalier poets who wrote about the coldness of Chloe had hold of a psychological truth missed in nearly all the realistic novels of today. Our psychological romancers perpetually represent wives as striking terror into their husbands by rolling on the floor, gnashing their teeth, throwing about the furniture or poisoning the coffee; all this upon some strange fixed theory that women are what they call emotional. But in truth the old and frigid form is much nearer to the vital fact. Most men if they spoke with any sincerity would agree that the most terrible quality in women, whether in friendship, courtship or marriage, was not so much being emotional as being unemotional."

2:35 AM, February 04, 2007  
Anonymous anonymom said...

Single-father anonymous: If you read my post, you'd have noticed that I wasn't talking about the men who already take responsibility for child care. I'm talking about men who cede that responsibility to their wives because--oh, I'm sure there are many reasons--they don't know how, they think their wife knows better, they work all day. After ceding that responsibility, why are those men surprised when other people question their abilities to take on full-time care of children? Family court judges, for example. The Chesterton anonymous makes my point: He really does think that men should not do "women's" work. Why doesn't that attitude make you furious? He's saying that men aren't capable of taking care of children.

It looks as if the men's movement has the same problem the women' movement has: You all say that you're after men's rights, but you get stuck with some extremists who identify themselves as part of your group but who work against you.

The fact that I'm a woman does not make me your enemy by definition. Nor does it mean that I defend women who harm children. My nephew is fighting for custody of his daughter and I'm on his side. I get tired of men who weakly say that men "can" do child care. Of COURSE they can! If a thirteen-year-old girl can do it, why can't you?

9:50 AM, February 04, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, anonymom, how would you feel if a husband complained about a wife's ceding financial responsibility to the husband, oh, well, because she wanted to be "taken care of" or wanted to "stay at home" full time? Is that the same level of irresponsibility in your eyes as the example you cite above?

I understand the scope of some of what you write above, but it seems to smack of entitlement and the double standard that men face all the time. A double standard that requires them to work out of the house as much as possible while condemning them for not spending time with their families, and naming them as slackers if they don't work enough.

Single Dad ANon

10:39 AM, February 04, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

trey:

"Let's see, most teachers are women.

Most daycare workers are women.

Most stay at home parents are women.

Most babysitters are women."

Uh, yeah. This is sort of what anonymom is saying. Why don't men become teachers, daycare workers, stay at home parents, or daycare workers, then? That's right. Because they don't WANT to. My male co-worker nearly went nuts during his 3 month FMLA leave. He couldn't wait to get back to work.

I agree with the whole "Mary Winkler is probably a cold-blooded killer" line. And there can be no doubt that seeing her out living it up is distasteful, regardless of her claimed defense.

But spare me the whole "It's so much scarier when a Mom kills because they have so much CONTROL" meme. Most women would love to have a real partner to share child-rearing duties.

And hey, trey? Not only can I count, but I can spell, too. So, better leave the thinking to me. And thanks for showing what a little baby you are.

11:07 AM, February 04, 2007  
Blogger TMink said...

Anonymom wrote: "Perhaps men should take more of an interest in their children, then?"

Completely agree with you there.

Trey

11:14 AM, February 04, 2007  
Blogger TMink said...

Then anonymom wrote: "It looks as if the men's movement has the same problem the women' movement has: You all say that you're after men's rights, but you get stuck with some extremists who identify themselves as part of your group but who work against you."

So far anonymom, you can just sign your posts with my name too. Well said.

Trey

11:17 AM, February 04, 2007  
Blogger TMink said...

First a fraud, then a poor speller, now a baby. Your anonymous repartee is certainly devastating. What is next? Poo poo head?

Trey

11:21 AM, February 04, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I didn't call you a fraud. That was someone else. Maybe you wouldn't know that. But then again, that comment did cause me to look you up on the licensure site and I couldn't find you. Also, didn't you basically call me stupid ("Leave the thinking to those of us who can count")?

11:35 AM, February 04, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

Anonymous 11:07:

You state: "Uh, yeah. This is sort of what anonymom is saying. Why don't men become teachers, daycare workers, stay at home parents, or daycare workers, then? That's right. Because they don't WANT to."

Men do not want to become teachers, etc. many times because of discrimination against them-- and yes, the pay is low for childcare workers etc. but even men who want to work with kids are laughed at, called perverts and sex abusers and are held as suspect by many. When this discrimination against men ends, perhaps more men will be willing to work with children. For any of you who are interested in men and teaching, Manteach blog at

http://www.menteach.org/pages/faq.html

may have some answers and help.

11:42 AM, February 04, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why don't women marry men who make less money than they do? Why don't more women become coal miners, firemen, police officers, or plumbers?

Anonymom, I raised a valid point, despite the mudslinging that followed. I recall a NYT article last year where stay at home dads were described as "parasites" because they did not pull their own financial weight in supporting a household. Helen has provided a good reason why men shun professions where they have to interact with children.

Cranky Chesterton references aside, why don't more women pull their weight financially in a relationship? Why are there so many stay at home parasites?

When the shoe's on the other foot, you don't seem too keen on responding. I'm asking the same questions again hoping you will. I look forward to your reply.

Single Dad Anon

12:18 PM, February 04, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Single Dad Anon:

This is anon 11:07. I am dating a guy who makes less. I pay for probably 75% of our outings. And I have been thinking now that I should have become a plumber or an electrician instead of a lawyer. But it's a little late for that now. Anyway, I'm not on here complaining about my "lack of access to plumbing". Men can't complain about their lack of access if they choose not to engage in the professions they allege give women access. I understand helen says men who do become teachers might think they would get laughed at or would be looked upon with suspicion. And I'm sure that does play a role. And I'm sure we as a society need to eliminate our stereotypes. Still, playing in to the stereotypes is no excuse. They tried to tell me when I was a little girl that I was supposed to be the nurse, not the doctor. The secretary, not the lawyer. I told them they could go screw themselves. In addition, I strongly suspect men themselves would engage in the same type of stereotyping. They wouldn't want some male daycare worker around their little daughter.

As to why more women don't pull their weight financially? I don't know that they don't. We can sit here and throw anecdotes around all we want. I've got just as many as you do. The vast majority of women I know do work outside the home. AND they do the vast majority of the housework and child-rearing.

But my recommendation to any man who feels his wife is not pulling her weight financially, to any man whose wife refuses to work--get a divorce. Now. Don't wait 20 years when you find the woman of your dreams. If it's not okay with you, do it now. You don't get to wait 20 years, essentially condoning her failure to work, and then leave without any responsibility. Leave now, while she will still be assumed by the courts to be young enough to learn some skills and support herself.

By the way, my advice is the same to the ladies with husbands who don't pull their weight in terms of housework or child-rearing. Stop complaining and get a divorce. If you choose to stick around, then I don't want to hear your whining.

12:48 PM, February 04, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The big difference in the solutions you propose, anon, is that getting a divorce from a woman who doesn't pull her own weight means loss of children and substantial loss of income in the form of alimony and child support.

For a couple in the reverse situation, the outcome is usually the same for the man.

Certainly, societally, there is stereotyping on both sides, but legally, in Family Court, the situation is far from symmetrical.

Single Dad Anon

2:06 PM, February 04, 2007  
Anonymous anonymom said...

Single Dad Anon,

I'm not ignoring you--I just returned from church. I agree with you. Women should take as much responsibility for the family finances as men do/should. I work full time and I earn nearly as much as my husband. My husband is a well-respected teacher. Grade school teacher, even. It is true that women tend to grow up with the understanding that the children will be their territory and men grow up with the understanding that finances will be their responsiblity. But there are all kinds of variations out there. I know a woman who is very good with money but she insists that her husband take care of the finances because he's the man--even though she's better at it than he is. I know women who won't let their husbands near the checkbook. My own grandmother ran the finances for her family. I have friends who are stay-at-home moms who recognize their financial responsibility as working within their budget. Thank goodness I don't have any close friends who earn their own money and consider it "hers" while his money is "theirs"--but I'm sure those women are out there.

The thing is that each marriage is created by the two people in it. Anon12:48 has worked things out with her husband and I've worked things out with mine. She is right, that if this isn't the marriage that works for you, you should do something about it.

AnonyDad, you said, "how would you feel if a husband complained about a wife's ceding financial responsibility to the husband, oh, well, because she wanted to be "taken care of" or wanted to "stay at home" full time? Is that the same level of irresponsibility in your eyes as the example you cite above?"

It's very close. The difference is that taking care of children has to do with raising children to be good people. Taking care of money, important as it is, is not quite that. Still--I agree with your main point, that women need to be just as involved with the family finances.

You also asked why women don't become coal miners or plumbers. I think women are still getting used to the idea that they can do whatever they darn well please. I have a woman friend who took up heating and airconditioning because of the money. Another friend who runs a crane because of the money and because she doesn't want to work indoors. My guess is that men don't rush to apply at the day cares because they won't earn much. The fear of being accused of "touching" probably is a good excuse--but I'd bet the money is the biggest concern. Women who run day cares in their homes can earn a decent living--maybe when men realize that, they will consider that line of work. My husband and I very nearly chose an excellent daycare run by a husband/wife team but chose another with a better location.

2:07 PM, February 04, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymom:

I think we are largely in agreement here. BTW, on behalf of all men, I apologize for the Chesterton reference above which gave you offense.

I think in a world where a man is measured by his earning potential, money is certainly an issue with regards to men pursuing teaching as a career, but keep in mind, this is also a world where children sitting next to men on certain airlines have their seats changed due to the presumption they may be child molesters.

I think a man running a daycare center in his home is a clear recipe for disaster in this day and age, from a liability standpoint. I don't even have sleepovers at my house with my daughters' friends. The concern about false allegations of abuse is a valid one, though you may disagree.

Anecdotally, I am in a very different place than you are. My ex-wife is Harvard-educated, yet refuses to work full-time. Thankfully, though, I have a feeling my daughters will be very different from her. I do not run into that many women who feel discriminated against in their professions.

The bottom line, in my eyes, is that women now have many options they can pursue in their careers compared to past decades. Some might argue this is due to feminist gains.

Those same feminists have closed off alternative professional options to men through their successful efforts to demonize men in civil and criminal court.

Single Dad Anon

2:19 PM, February 04, 2007  
Blogger TMink said...

Sorry I guess, all you anons look alike to me. And I certainly DID call one of you stupid when one of you denied that women have more access to children than men do. That might have been your evil twin. But as I recall, the spelling snarking came first. I just prefer to skip the whole passive part of passive-aggressive. Now if I was smacking the wrong anon, I truly appologize and ask that you understand and forgive my confusion.

But now, a fact. Women kill more children than men do. That is because they tend to perpetrate "neglect," a passive form of abuse which is more often deadly. Why is this not widely known and accepted? Because as I said earlier, I think that it is too frightening to not trust women because they are the hand that rocks the cradle. It is not all sexism, part of it is denial.

Now, do you want to call me more names, or post an idea?

Trey (which is what my friends call me, it is a nickname, not my legal name)

2:49 PM, February 04, 2007  
Anonymous cadmus said...

men cant work in any place where there are kids,, why people think they are perverts, if i wanted to work in a school i would have to have a complete criminal records search done on me.

more and more men are being falsely accused of being pedophiles by terriffied parents, in some cases the child care workers wont even take the child to the bathroom, but has to phone the mother up and say, its purely a way of making sure you arent
sued. when children arent even treated by a plaster on the knee, unless there are 2 teachers present.

men are being pushed out of this field, because of paranoia and fear, and its mostly the parents.

look at the satanic fear in the 90's in england, allegedly kids were abused and sacrificed to satan, kids were eaten by wild dogs.. it ruined that daycare centre, and it was discovered it was false memory.

but their lives were ruined. ask any parent about who they want to look after their kids. 90% will say a woman.

3:20 PM, February 04, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yes, cadmus. You would have to have a criminal background search to work in a school. You think that's wrong? A woman would have to undergo the same background search.

3:27 PM, February 04, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

No, trey, you got me right. All except for I wasn't the one who made the remark about your not being a real psychologist. So, I didn't imply you are a fraud.

Perhaps correcting your spelling is snarky. But you DID misspell the word. I mean, you wanna call me stupid-that's fine. I can take it. I'm just saying, don't get on some high horse about the level of discourse when you've really done no better.

I mean really. Calling names? At worst, I called you a bad speller. Is that so hard for you to hear? Then you called me stupid.

Now, for your "facts". Care to cite a source for that? And I would advise to consider the validity of the source. Because I can find all sorts of stats too if I don't take into account the bias of the supposed "source".

3:52 PM, February 04, 2007  
Blogger TMink said...

Shoddy sources. Wow, do you do this for a living? I am so busted.

http://mchb.hrsa.gov/chusa03/pages/status_children.htm

http://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/factsheets/canstats.cfm

The facts:

"The overwhelming majority of perpetrators of child maltreatment deaths are biological parents, especially mothers. National statistics report that about 78% of fatalities in 2003 were perpetrated by biological parents. Of those, 39% were committed by mothers (either alone or with a non-parent), 19% were committed by fathers (either alone or with a non-parent) and 20% were committed by mothers and fathers together.[3] Other studies have found similar findings. [2]In cases of neglect mothers are more frequently the cause of their children’s deaths."

The citation:

3. United States Administration for Children & Families, Child Maltreatment 2003: Reports from the States to the National Child Abuse and Neglect Data Systems - National statistics on child abuse and neglect. 2005.

I know you only asked for one source, but I am a generous guy!

Trey

8:17 PM, February 04, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Alright trey. I will concede that women kill children more often than men do. Though I couldn't find any info on point in your first link, the second link contains this:

"Women also comprised a larger percentage of all perpetrators than men: 58 percent compared to 42 percent."

Now, will you concede that, if women have more access to children than men (as you allege), that this difference is insignificant?

11:41 PM, February 04, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

anonymous 11:41:

This tired old excuse about women having more access to kids and therefore it is no wonder they kill, neglect or perpetrate against them is hogwash. It is like saying that it is not significant if a woman is raped because the perp had access to her.

6:12 AM, February 05, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

But trey's the one that said women had more access, not me. That women and mothers deprive men of access through the family courts and through being the majority the of the teachers and daycare workers in this country.

If that is true, then a 58% to 42% split WOULD be statistically insignificant.

8:02 AM, February 05, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And what are you suggesting is the reason for the difference, helen? That women are just more apt to kill and kill children? That they're evil? Seriously, I'd like to hear what your explanation is.

No, your rape analogy is not apt. Men are injured and killed on the job more often than women. Why? Is it because they're stupid? Or reckless? No, it's because they work dangerous jobs in higher numbers than women. So, the opportunity for injury is higher. THAT'S the analogy.

8:29 AM, February 05, 2007  
Anonymous TMink said...

I was talking about access in terms of denial. I did not know these statistics until recently, and I have been working with abused kids since 1991! Anon, you did not know these stats either, that is certainly understandable.

My point of interest is WHY did we not know these stats? WHY is abuse getting most of the attention when neglect is more deadly? WHY are non-familial men separated from some children on airlines when the child's own mother is more likely to hurt the child? Picture a child abuser, I picture a man, don't you? Why?

I believe men and women to be equally wonderful, and equally dangerous. This is not a gender issue for me, the issue is why are men identified as more dangerous than they are while women are identified as safer than they are when you look at the numbers.

Many folks identify this as misandry, plain and simple. I am wondering if it is more. Surely part of it is chivalry. I posit that some of it is denial. It is too frightening to "allow" women to be as dangerous to their own children as they statistically are.

I would really like some reaction to this idea, pro and con, as I am trying to figure this out and could use y'all's help. (Love that double apostrophe!)Gender bashers need not post.

Trey

9:55 AM, February 05, 2007  
Blogger knoxwhirled said...

that comment did cause me to look you up on the licensure site and I couldn't find you.

This is stupendously dense, considering you yourself are posting anonymously and are unwilling to give your own name and credentials.... don't hold others up to standards you are unwilling to prove that you have.

10:26 AM, February 05, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

Anonymous 8:29:

No, the analogy would would be if men were killing or harming people at work and your excuse for that was, "Oh, more men are at a job, therefore of course they would kill, or harm someone at work." Do you somehow find it acceptable that women kill children, neglect or harm them at a rate at least equal to men? I hope not. Isn't the real question, why do they do it and how can we decrease it from happening?

10:33 AM, February 05, 2007  
Anonymous Jim said...

"I practiced family law for 12 years. I'd say I'm informed. What do you do for a living?"

The appeal to authority. Is that the best you can do at logic? Thats'a all the closer you come to competence as an attorney? Sounds like you all you did is defrauded a bunch of clients fo r 12 years.

Posession is ninth tenths etc, and if someone has enough control opver something to use it as a barganing chip, that's ownership. Admit it. Or owuld that be asking too much honesty of someone who practices law?

11:26 AM, February 05, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

helen:

I don't really understand your analogy. You're saying if the fact was that more men than women kill people on the job? Yes, if the fact was also that men constitute a larger percentage of the workforce, that would make sense. The point is opportunity. And that is what we are talking about here.

And of course I'm not saying murder is acceptable! Don't be daft! No one is excusing murder. We're talking about why there is this statistical difference. I think the difference (58%-42%) is negligible anyway. You all seem to think it's relevant to something, I just can't figure out how. But even so, I'm saying if women have greater access to children, it explains the statistical difference.

Why anybody harms children and how do we stop it from happening? Yes, absolutely, let's focus on that.


knoxwhirled:

I'll keep that in mind. I may decide to post my name and credentials. It was only a passing comment. I don't have a problem with people like yourself posting anonymously.

11:31 AM, February 05, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

jim:

Who appealed to authority? YOU said I was uninformed and obviously hadn't been near a family court. I was simply pointing out that you were wrong. Logic? Your post contained alot of broad assertions with no actual FACTS to back it up. I can make alot of broad assertions too. You will dispute them, as I dispute yours. So, don't talk to me about logic.

11:41 AM, February 05, 2007  
Anonymous Jim said...

Anon,
Actually my post was just insulting in a juvenile way.

You have been in family court and still come away so clueless? Or perhaps you know very well how the situation is but have your reasons for saying the opposute. Whatever.

Children are treated like property in this society rather than as members of families; grandparents and other elders in the family have no say whatsoever in how they are raised. Parents have a degree of exclusive control over children that rivals or supasses private prpoerty, and when I say parents, of course that means mothers - the statute reads gender-blind, but the court applies it in a very slanted way, as the stats for custody show. Functionally choiildren are the proerty of their mothers.

12:54 PM, February 05, 2007  
Anonymous TMink said...

Jim, I agree, especially small children. As they grow and mature, there is more space for us men. But in terms of infants and young children, they are their mothers.

Even outside of court. In my first marriage, I was the stable one and ended up being my daughter's primary attachment. In my current marriage and family, and am a distant second to their mommy. While a part of me is happy and thinks it should be that way, a part of me misses the closeness I had with my first daughter.

Now their mom is a mostly stay at home mom, but she also has skills and training and aptitude in dealing with small children that I just don't have. I wonder if gender differences in brains contribute to the socialization of gender roles in parenting.

I know you were referring to legal matters, but I notice a moderate preference for their mommy in our close marriage. And gender strengths do not equal gender inequity in my book.

Trey

1:12 PM, February 05, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I found this sight though more of an accident than anything else, but am glad I did. Having been enbroiled in a custudy dispute for over 4 years I believe that my pratical experience concerning these issue is somewhat vast. My personal experience has been one of people lieing, cheeting, steeling, embezzling, extoring, blackmailing, manipulating,coercing and the requirements for these Crimminal charges, as well as Kidnapping and Child Abuse, have been satisfied repeatedly. The Court is well aware of the fact that these Crimes have and continue to take place. I have requested the Government on all levels, to perform it sole funtion and protect, my Son, as well as many others, from these Criminals. I discribe the System as Sociopaths in a psycotic situation. If everyone knows there is a problem (to state there isn't would be to state one is dillussional or psycotic) yet refuse to do something about it (Negligence) because they are Agtaid or wouldn't be able to collect the massive fee's we as a country are required to pay (Extortion) because the ones in control would be sacrificing there sorce of income (Sociopathic)I and many others will continue to fear for the safety of our children and ourselves.

What makes my situation worse is that everything I have said is documented and most charges are verifiable beyond any reasonable dought when the requirement in Civil court is 51%. to show this, one would have to be willing to review a stack of documents over 40" tall (( Billable Hr's) What a Case Study)). All this because I left an Abusive Alcaholic Girlfriend and we had a child together, who didn't and doesn't like his mother and who's mothers is only interested in the money. By the way she and the court system are still in control of my child after 4 years and continue to collect money ( billable hrs/court fees/child support/exc:) and My son still says he doesn't want to go back to his mother.

If you would like to address the real problem, which is the fact that the justice System is the problem I'm with Ya. if you wish to continue the failed policies which have created the problem, which continue to get worse, I would have to ask, who is dillissional here?

It is way past time for open honest discussions on the Local, State and National level, by calm cool headed Americans, who can agree to disagree, but are willing to actually listen to what the other side has to say and who are willing to judge ones self, instead of trying to push ones version. In other words the Truth, The Whole Truth, and Nothing but The Truth, so help me GOD!!!!

My intention isn't to insult or get people mad but more to make people think. It seems we have made it so complicated that we can't do it anymore. May I suggest that instead of going to a librery to look at thousands of books, one picks up a dictionary to define the word.

Thomas E. McMinnville, TN

PS please forgive the SP.

1:39 PM, February 05, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

jim:

"You have been in family court and still come away so clueless?"

You haven't been in family court on a regular basis and still come away thinking you know so much?

3:15 PM, February 05, 2007  
Anonymous Jim said...

"You haven't been in family court on a regular basis and still come away thinking you know so much? "

The wreckage from the Family Court system is all over society. It's in plain view.See the comment just above yours. That man's story is hardly unusual. Everyone seems to have a personal story of woe...well, maybe no one you think is important, so you don't hear the stories. The idea that you have to hang out in the courts to know what is laughable. Your stuff leaks out; after all the public is entitled to know. The personal is political, you know.

7:17 PM, February 05, 2007  
Anonymous br549 said...

Thomas E. / anonymous 1:39 PM

If I am not mistaken, when your son reaches the age of 12, he can make his own choice with whom he wishes to live. In Tennessee, I have been through a similar situation as you face with three kids. It is absolutely unbelievable at times. You wonder if you are not stuck in a bad dream from which you cannot awaken.

With things sounding as badly as they are for you, you must try to hang in there. It is my belief the system in Tennessee is set up to punish the male, right, wrong or indifferent. Things can be said about you, with no proof offered, and it sticks. But it will clear eventually.

Time wounds all heels.

8:38 PM, February 05, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

jim:

"The idea that you have to hang out in the courts to know what is laughable."

Uh, jim, YOU were the one who first suggested that perhaps I didn't know anything about this because I hadn't been anywhere near a family court. Very interesting that you are now arguing the exact opposite.

As far as the rest, the above gentleman's anecdote is just that. Anecdotal. Doesn't mean it didn't happen. Just means it's one man's story. And I guarantee you there's another side.

As a lawyer, I get alot of people coming in telling me their stories. Then I show up in court and, lo and behold, the evidence proves otherwise. People tell you the story that puts them in the best possible light. Few people are willing to volunteer information that reflects poorly on them. Even (and this is the part that is so confounding) EVEN when it should be obvious that you and everyone else will find out the truth.

So, any lawyer that's been in the business for more than a couple of years knows. Don't buy into any story. Look at the proof.

8:47 PM, February 05, 2007  
Anonymous KnoxvilleGirl said...

My husband went to school at South Doyle High School with Mary Winkler. Then she was known as Mary Carol Freeman and he said she was one of the biggest whores in the high school. He was at a party once and there were guys lined up waiting to have a turn having sex with a very drunk Mary. He had many other very colorful stories to tell about Mary. When the story first broke on the news that she had murdered her husband the first words out of my husbands mouths was "Oh my God!! I know her!! then he said, It doesn't surprise me a bit..just a little FYI..

9:06 PM, February 05, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Br549 Thanks but I can't understand the child Abuse needing to last till he is 12. Think of the Damage the system is doing to my child. Also as I understand it several years ago the legislature changed the mandates on Judges to state. If niether parent can show the other parent to be a danger to the child then the default possition for the judge is 50/50 and remember I left an abusive alcoholic.

To anonamouse the Lawyer. You have sworn an Oath to uphold the Constatutions and the Law yet the Rule of law is placed above the two most important documents in our nation every day hence making them subservient. The history of our problem is that as the Judge stated he doesn't want to see the evidence and at this point the evidence will justify the disbarment of many Attorneys and the Judge or as defence counceil informed me his friend. This I believe is called a conflict of Interest.

Once again maybe we should look at the problem, which appears to be the sytem itself and its inability to address it's own failings. Because I have been told many times that the Judge will not address or reverse prior mistakes. Even though the obviose is slapping him in the face. This take place in almost every court across our great nation every day

And still my son as well as many others children pay the price (Court sponcered Child Abuse).

We have a problem here. A huge problem

Thomas E.

McMinnville, TN

10:31 AM, February 06, 2007  
Anonymous Jim said...

Lawyer,

I know all about lying witnesses and how people try to game the system; you are not the only one in the world who works in with witnesses.

I also know about lawyers' little stunts, such as this one:

""The idea that you have to hang out in the courts to know what is laughable."

Uh, jim, YOU were the one who first suggested that perhaps I didn't know anything about this because I hadn't been anywhere near a family court. Very interesting that you are now arguing the exact opposite."

No, actually it's quite telling that you are trying to misrepresnt my point, which was that anyone familiar with a cross-section of these cases would know that the courts are biased against fathers. Anecdotes are simply data points, but data points are what statistics are based on. The child custody statistics in this country paint a clear picture. care to dispute that? In my second comment I was disputing your contention that you had some special inside knoledge denied to the rest of that. That was clear to everyone else here presumably, except you. Or perhaps you did understand, and are simply choosing to be dishonest. Which is it?

7:15 PM, February 07, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm misrepresenting your point? Let's just compare your words then, jim.

Your first comment (made before you knew my profession):

"You obviously have never been anyhwere (sic) near a family court."

Your recent comment (made AFTER you knew my profession):

"The idea that you have to hang out in the courts to know what is laughable."

You can 'splain all you want. It's clear to any reader that in the first instance you were attempting (with backhanded kindness) to suggest that I simply didn't know anything about this subject. In the second instance, you were trying to backpeddle from the obvious erroneous nature of your earlier suggestion (that I didn't know anything about this subject) and make up for the fact that (to any unbiased observer) it would appear that I know a good deal more about it than you do.

Finally, I never actually stated I had any special inside knowledge. Again, YOU were the one who said, ""You have been in family court and still come away so clueless?"

And if you're so familiar with lying witnesses gaming the system, why would you refer me to the above gentleman's story, as if that was indicative of a damned thing?

And so, to sum up: You have called me misinformed and clueless--two things I certainly am not. All, it would seem, to make up for the fact that you got busted spouting pomposity on a topic you don't have any ACTUAL knowledge about.

And helen blames anonymous posters for being insulting?

12:37 AM, February 08, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I will start by appologizing but it would appear to me that the Truth The Whole Truth and nothing but the Truth is the key to the situation. Think of it like an experiment where you have a Hypothosis (in a legal case two sides) and then the experimentation/Discovery proves or disproves you Hypothosis. A very wise Judge stated that if He decided the issue neither side will be happy or he will be in the middle. That should address the "Gaming issue" on both sides.

The Lawyers have the truth through discovery and should act as middle men/women yet continue to push ones version. This everts the logic built into the justice System which should be blind. I know honest Attorneys which have and will continue to drop cases once they found their client was unethical because they weren't.

I believe the Founding Farthers were pretty smart and understood that in the English System which I think relies on the rule of law and Precidence all one needs is a freind sitting on a bench to make a bad dissission which then is compounded over time. Hence our Oaths to uphold the Constitutions and the law. Not the rule of law or Precidence. If the rule of law or Precidence allows either to be violated we once again have a problem which is compounded over time.

You can Bicker all you wish and continue to sling arrows but from what I'm reading thats all your doing. You aren't addressing the problems and are only attacking each other and dragging others in. I think I am reading that your saying their is a problem and that at least is a start. How about we define the problems then fix them (middle ground). :)

Might I suggest that we as a nation start following the Constatutions first.

Thanks TE

1:33 PM, February 08, 2007  
Anonymous Jim said...

Lawyer,

You are still at it.

"You can 'splain all you want. "

You can misrepresent all you want. You seem to think that you can just impose your interpretation on two comments, spin them your way, and that becomes the truth. Does that kind of thing work in the courts where you are?

"And if you're so familiar with lying witnesses gaming the system, why would you refer me to the above gentleman's story, as if that was indicative of a damned thing?"

So it's off limits to refer you to a single data point unless it's a slam dunk piece of evidence. How convenient. How many slam dunk pieces of evidence do you come across in real cases? Or does preponderance of the evidence and that sort of reasoning not apply in your system of law? Are you really this unaware of patterns of research that rely on unconnected bits of information, unreliable information that has to be checked aaginst other perhap unreliable in fornmation? Of course you are; attorneys deal with real situations. So this little ploy of yours is dishonest.

"And so, to sum up: You have called me misinformed and clueless--two things I certainly am not."

You say I called you uninformed. What I said was that you were making an apopeal to authority. I will break down in small pieces for you: that is a logical fallacy. I said nothing about how much you know or don't know. You are trained in law and argumentation, so you certialy know how to recognize, and therefore employ, logical fallacies. When someone calls you on it, you spin off it osme other way. That is dishonest also.

What I am calling you is dishonest. Your twisting and misrepresentation of my comments confirms that. Thank you.

This what it comes down to. Any honest person can see the gender bias in the family court system. That was the thrust of my comment that the courst see children as the proerty of the mother. You have not refuted that contettnion at, but instead have launched a spluttering campaign even more schoolmarmish than your pompous and rude snip at Trey's spelling.

You sound irritated. That's good enough for me. Good-bye.

6:19 PM, February 09, 2007  
Anonymous br549 said...

Walking softly, I agree with Jim to an extent. The system is biased toward the female in a divorce situation - at least where I was living when facing one.

I was in court on six different occasions, with divorce filed against me by her. Well, she never showed up. It was continued, and her lawyer (on my dollar)was told to contact her and see why she was not in court. Six times. Her lawyer eventually asked to be released from the case, and the judge agreed. My lawyer looked at the judge, and then at me, and that was the last time I saw him. Next court date, it was me all by myself. No her, no her lawyer, no my lawyer. The judge made me wait until the end of the day. After the last case it was she, me and the sheriff in the courtroom. She said without a lawyer for me, for her, and her not showing up (no warrants went out for her, by the way), there was nothing she could do. And she walked out, leaving me standing there. My lawyer never returned my calls. When all my kids finally got to come back to me, I packed us all up and left the state. Hell, there's probably a warrant out for my arrest, now.

On the other hand, if the female was in court and the male was not there, a warrant immediately went out for his arrest. I saw this numerous times during the six long days I sat in divorce court waiting and watching men get shafted. Some deserved it, at least as many did not. When a judge makes a decision that destroys someone's life, and his now ex wife yells out yes! it makes you think.

There may have been a time when it was necessary to award everything to the woman because of the way society was built then. It's different now, and fair and equitable are not the same now as they may have been then. It sure seems like punishment and revenge to me.

6:53 PM, February 09, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

jim:

"You say I called you uninformed. What I said was that you were making an apopeal to authority. I will break down in small pieces for you: that is a logical fallacy. I said nothing about how much you know or don't know."

Again, let's review your words then.


you said: "That is quite simply false. I don't think you are lying, I think you are just uninformed."

And you call ME dishonest?

And finally, what are you talking about--preponderance of the evidence? A single data point IS useless. You can refer to numerous unrelated data points that might add up to mean something. But referring to that one guy's story is meaningless and silly.

"Any honest person can see the gender bias in the family court system."

Yeah, thanks jim. Your saying that really proves your point.

10:41 AM, February 10, 2007  
Blogger mmbox said...

2008真情寫真aa片免費看捷克論壇微風論壇大眾論壇plus論壇080視訊聊天室情色視訊交友90739美女交友-成人聊天室色情小說做愛成人圖片區豆豆色情聊天室080豆豆聊天室 小辣妹影音交友網台中情人聊天室桃園星願聊天室高雄網友聊天室新中台灣聊天室中部網友聊天室嘉義之光聊天室基隆海岸聊天室中壢網友聊天室南台灣聊天室南部聊坊聊天室台南不夜城聊天室南部網友聊天室屏東網友聊天室台南網友聊天室屏東聊坊聊天室雲林網友聊天室大學生BBS聊天室網路學院聊天室屏東夜語聊天室孤男寡女聊天室一網情深聊天室心靈饗宴聊天室流星花園聊天室食色男女色情聊天室真愛宣言交友聊天室情人皇朝聊天室上班族成人聊天室上班族f1影音視訊聊天室哈雷視訊聊天室080影音視訊聊天室38不夜城聊天室援交聊天室080080哈啦聊天室台北已婚聊天室已婚廣場聊天室 夢幻家族聊天室摸摸扣扣同學會聊天室520情色聊天室QQ成人交友聊天室免費視訊網愛聊天室愛情公寓免費聊天室拉子性愛聊天室柔情網友聊天室哈啦影音交友網哈啦影音視訊聊天室櫻井莉亞三點全露寫真集123上班族聊天室尋夢園上班族聊天室成人聊天室上班族080上班族聊天室6k聊天室粉紅豆豆聊天室080豆豆聊天網新豆豆聊天室080聊天室免費音樂試聽流行音樂試聽免費aa片試看免費a長片線上看色情貼影片免費a長片

8:23 AM, March 22, 2009  
Blogger mmbox said...

本土成人貼圖站大台灣情色網台灣男人幫論壇A圖網嘟嘟成人電影網火辣春夢貼圖網情色貼圖俱樂部台灣成人電影絲襪美腿樂園18美女貼圖區柔情聊天網707網愛聊天室聯盟台北69色情貼圖區38女孩情色網台灣映像館波波成人情色網站美女成人貼圖區無碼貼圖力量色妹妹性愛貼圖區日本女優貼圖網日本美少女貼圖區亞洲風暴情色貼圖網哈啦聊天室美少女自拍貼圖辣妹成人情色網台北女孩情色網辣手貼圖情色網AV無碼女優影片男女情色寫真貼圖a片天使俱樂部萍水相逢遊戲區平水相逢遊戲區免費視訊交友90739免費視訊聊天辣妹視訊 - 影音聊天網080視訊聊天室日本美女肛交美女工廠貼圖區百分百貼圖區亞洲成人電影情色網台灣本土自拍貼圖網麻辣貼圖情色網好色客成人圖片貼圖區711成人AV貼圖區台灣美女貼圖區筱萱成人論壇咪咪情色貼圖區momokoko同學會視訊kk272視訊情色文學小站成人情色貼圖區嘟嘟成人網嘟嘟情人色網 - 貼圖區免費色情a片下載台灣情色論壇成人影片分享免費視訊聊天區微風 成人 論壇kiss文學區taiwankiss文學區

8:23 AM, March 22, 2009  
Blogger nini said...

85cc免費影城 愛情公寓正妹牆川藏第一美女 成人影片 情色交友網 美女視訊 美女視訊 視訊情人高雄網 JP成人影城 383成人影城 aa片免費a片下載 a片線上看aa片免費看 ※a片線上試看※sex520免費影片※ aa片免費看 BT成人論壇 金瓶影片交流區 自拍美女聊天室 aa片免費a片下載 SEX520免費影片 免費a片 日本美女寫真集 sex520aa免費影片 sex520aa免費影片 BT成人網 Hotsee免費視訊交友 百分百貼影片區 SEX520免費影片 免費視訊聊天室 情人視訊高雄網 星光情色討論版 正妹牆 383成人影城 線上85cc免費影城 85cc免費影城 85cc免費影城 85cc免費影城 ※免費視訊聊天室※ ※免費視訊聊天室※ 免費視訊聊天室 85cc免費影片 85cc免費影片 080苗栗人聊天室 080苗栗人聊天室 080中部人聊天室 080中部人聊天室 免費a片下載 免費a片 AA片免費看 aa片免費看 aa片免費看 aa片免費看 aa片免費看 日本av女優影片 av女優 av女優無碼影城 av女優 av女優 百分百成人圖片 百分百成人圖片 視訊情人高雄網 電話交友 影音電話交友 絕色影城 絕色影城 夜未眠成人影城 夜未眠成人影城 色咪咪影片網 色咪咪影片網 色咪咪影片網 色咪咪影片網 色咪咪影片網 免費色咪咪貼影片 免費色咪咪貼影片 色情遊戲 色情遊戲 色情遊戲 色情遊戲 影音視訊交友網 視訊交友網 080視訊聊天室 ※免費視訊聊天室※ ※免費視訊聊天室※ 視訊聊天室 成人影音視訊聊天室 ut影音視訊聊天室 ※免費視訊聊天室※ 視訊ukiss聊天室視訊ukiss聊天室 視訊交友90739 視訊交友90739 情人視訊網 168視訊美女 168視訊美女 168視訊美女 視訊美女館 視訊美女館 免費視訊美女網 小高聊天室 小高聊天室 aio交友聊天室 aio交友聊天室 交友聊天室 交友聊天室 線上a片 線上a片 線上a片 線上a片 線上a片 免費線上a片 免費線上a片 嘟嘟成人網站 成人漫畫 情色文學 嘟嘟成人網 成人貼圖區 情色文學成人小說 微風成人區 情色貼圖區 免費視訊聊天 免費成人圖片區 愛情公寓 愛情公寓聊天室 寄情築園小遊戲 免費aa片線上看 aa片免費看 情色SXE聊天室 SEX情色遊戲 色情A片 免費下載 av女優 俱樂部 情色論壇 辣妹視訊 情色貼圖網 免費色情 聊天室 情人視訊聊天室 免費a片成人影城 免費a片-aa片免費看 0204貼圖區 SEX情色 交友聊天-線上免費 女優天堂 成人交友網 成人情色貼圖區 18禁 -女優王國 080視訊美女聊天室 080視訊聊天室 視訊交友90739 免費a片 aio 視訊交友網 成人影城-免費a片※免費視訊聊天※85cc免費影片日本線上免費a片 免費色咪咪影片免費色咪咪影片aaa片免費看影片aaa片免費看成人影城免費色咪咪影片

3:46 PM, April 05, 2009  
Blogger 天天看正妹 said...

"免費視訊美女520sexy girl
sogo論壇aa片免費看
免費線上 aa 片試看85CC
情色18 禁sex520免費a長片
av女優影片情色文學
日本av淫蕩人妻免費漫畫帝國
777美女dvd無碼av女優
視訊辣妹girl5320 貼片貼圖區
本土自拍影片qq 美美色網漫畫
百分百成人圖片avdvd
視訊辣妹找援交
dodo豆豆聊天室
成人影片下載免費線上a片
sex999日本美女寫真集
色情漫畫777美女dvdav
小護士免費 aa 片試看
網路自拍美女聊天室天堂
080聊天網桃園天堂
雪之深戀 080聊天網水之浪漫
sex888入口免費性影片觀賞
高中生援交偷拍自拍限制級色情 片
aa 片試看免費卡通
百分百成人情色圖片
嘟嘟情人網影片
內衣模特兒寫真成人圖貼
免費視訊78論壇
拓網學生族視訊777美女
辣妹有約辣妹no31314視訊
dudu sex免費 aa 片試看
成人a影片論壇
"

4:14 AM, April 09, 2009  
Blogger 天天看正妹 said...

免費視訊聊天
ut聊天室辣妹視訊
kk777視訊俱樂部
UT影音視訊聊天室
吉澤明步
85cc免費影片
立花里子無碼
aaa片免費看短片
美女視訊
台南視訊,080情人網
日本免費視訊
aa片免費看
視訊網愛聊天室
影音視訊交友
咆哮小老鼠分享論壇
sex520免費影片
aio辣妺視訊
百事無碼a片
jp成人影片
免費av成人 情色
免費視訊美女色美眉部落格
168論壇視訊辣妹
免費色咪咪視訊網pc交友
s383視訊玩美女人
34c高雄視訊聊天
yam交友辣妹妹影音視訊聊天室
aaa俱樂部
jp成人
Show-live視訊聊天室
免費視訊辣妹
QQ美女視訊秀
live173影音視訊聊天室
真人視訊交友
辣妹妹影音視訊聊天室
倉井空免費影片
UT視訊美女交友
視訊美女 寫真
視訊情色網
亞洲東洋影片avdvd
ut聊天室kk俱樂部視訊
激情網愛聊天
秘密情人影音視訊網
av無碼,一夜情,偷拍,免費影片下載
色漫畫帝國sex888免費看影
拓網視訊交友
34c視訊網愛聊天室
xxx383美女寫真迷愛聊天
sex999免費影片兼職援交
辣妹視訊網
免費視訊78論壇
情色香港論壇
我愛78論壇情色情趣 商品
美女show-live視訊情色
美眉共和國080情人網
s383情色大網咖視訊
aaa免費看影片
kk777視訊俱樂部
小魔女影城
sexy diamond sex888入口
104免費成人情色文學小說
免費成人影片,g點
彩虹無碼av女優
成人免費視訊 完美女人
美女短片免費試看
tw33 影片交流
南台灣視訊網愛聊天室
sex888movie影城
18 禁亞洲名模瘋情
洪爺免費線上歐美A片段觀看
情人辣妹影片視訊直播
QQ美女視訊秀
hi5 tv免費影片sex貼片網
新浪視訊
日本視訊小魔女自拍
美女交友影音視訊聊天室
domain hilive.tv限制級
sex888免費看影片波霸美女寫真
love104影音live秀
甜心寶貝直播貼片自慰
捷克論壇
桃園援交小魔女自拍天堂
裸體高雄援交妹
gogo2sex桃園視訊妹
85cc情色視訊交友
視訊妹迷愛聊天
34c情人視訊網愛聊天室
南台灣視訊貓貓論壇
視訊美女
21sex美女視訊交友
34c美女寶貝視訊
免費a片線上觀看s383視訊
視訊交友90739,限制級,777美女dvd
免費成人影片,日本美女寫真集
080情人網,本土自拍貼圖
ut同志交友網
禁地論壇比基尼辣妹
dvd線上aa片免費看
show-live名模視訊
情人小魔女自拍
視訊自拍美女聊天室

4:14 AM, April 09, 2009  
Blogger 天天看正妹 said...

85cc免費影城aa的滿18歲影片85cc免費影片aaa免費看影片aaaaa片俱樂部影片免費 a 片85cc免費影片aa影片下載城微風成人av論壇免費a片aaa片免費看影片aaa片免費看短片小魔女免費影片免費視訊聊天 a片免費看a 免費影片觀賞免費視訊聊天室微風成人85cc免費影片85cc成人影城免費成人視訊亞洲禁果影城aa的滿18歲影片A片-sex女優王國aaaaa片俱樂部免費卡通影片線上觀看線上免費a片觀看A片-sex女優王國情色偷拍免費A片免費A片免費看 aa的滿18歲影片aaa影片下載城日本免費視訊av俱樂部後宮0204movie免費影片免費 a 片ut聊天室辣妹視訊情色美女視訊聊天室免費卡通影片線上觀看 ut交友成人視訊免費A片av1688影音視訊天堂aaa的滿18歲卡通影片s383情色大網咖視訊美女館aaaa 片俱樂部免費a片卡通aaaa片免費看影片aaa片免費看短片 杜蕾斯成人UT影音視訊聊天室 免費視訊78論壇免費aaaaa片俱樂部影片aaaa彩虹頻道免費影片aa影片下載城色漫畫帝國kk777視訊俱樂部美女視訊5278論壇ut聊天室aio交友愛情館免費視訊聊天成人a圖片區小說頻道彩虹頻道免費影片jp成人小魔女免費影城免費 aa 片試看情色文學A片-無碼援交東京熱一本道亞洲東洋影片gay片免費下載卡通aa片免費看成人影片分享小魔女免費影片視訊高雄情人聊天室34c卡通美女a片免費試看av免費影片,視訊聊天go2av免費影片情色 網站sex女優王國高中生援交偷拍自拍限制級色情 片plus論壇080情人網免費av影片免費a片卡通浪漫月光論壇免費aa片avdvd無碼影音視訊交友 免費視訊辣妹情人視訊網免費視訊辣妹 免費視訊78論壇台灣kiss情色貼圖區sex免費看影片彩虹論壇免費視訊聊天室 咆哮小老鼠分享論壇月宮貼圖色妹妹嘟嘟情人色網日本美女寫真集,kk視訊成人情色 視訊21sexsexy辣妹視訊百分百成人情色圖片ut辣妹哈啦視訊聊天室 素人自拍免費影片線上觀賞論壇男人的最愛中國性愛城avdvd無碼aaa免費看影片bt電影下載,免費成人片免費a片卡通dudu sex

4:14 AM, April 09, 2009  
Blogger 123456 said...

广州托盘复合托盘食品托盘天津木托盘胶合板托盘蜂窝纸托盘塑木托盘熏蒸木托盘木制托盘广东塑料托盘钢托盘钢制托盘栈板塑料栈板木栈板垫仓板托盘包装求购托盘天津托盘温州托盘山东托盘北京托盘上海木托盘塑胶托盘卡板纸卡板塑料卡板手推车推车机场手推车好孩子手推车液压手推车超市手推车医用手推车康贝手推车不锈钢手推车平板车电动平板车老虎车静音手推车平板手推车小推车模具架置物架堆垛架巧固架整理架物料整理架挂板架整理柜零件柜零件整理柜文件整理柜仓储笼仓库笼料箱塑料箱钢制料箱货箱整理箱塑料整理箱周转箱塑料周转箱防静电周转箱求购周转箱物流箱物料盒零件盒塑料零件盒卡板箱周转筐塑料周转筐周转箩登高车物流台车台车密集架档案密集架文件柜办公文件柜北京文件柜广州文件柜上海文件柜南京文件柜深圳文件柜钢制文件柜铁皮文件柜档案柜文件柜厂底图柜档案柜鞋柜储物柜更衣柜防火防磁柜防磁柜防火防磁文件柜图书架资料柜工具柜

5:30 AM, April 13, 2009  
Blogger 徵信 said...

外遇外遇外遇外遇外遇外遇外遇外遇外遇 外遇
外遇 外遇外遇 外遇 外遇
外遇 外遇 外遇
外遇


外遇 外遇
外遇
外遇 外遇外遇
外遇

外遇 外遇外遇 外遇 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 ,
外遇 外遇 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇外遇 外遇外遇 外遇 外遇

外遇 外遇

外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇劈腿劈腿劈腿劈腿劈腿劈腿劈腿劈腿喜帖囍帖卡片外遇外遇 外遇 外遇外遇 外遇
外遇 外遇 外遇 外遇剖析 外遇調查 外遇案例 外遇諮詢 偷情 第三者外遇話題 外遇發洩 感情挽回 徵信社 外遇心態 外遇 通姦 通姦罪 外遇徵信社徵信社外遇 外遇 抓姦徵信協會徵信公司 包二奶 徵信社 徵信 徵信社 徵信社 徵信社 徵信社 徵信 徵信 婚姻 婚前徵信 前科 個人資料 外遇 第三者 徵信社 偵探社 抓姦 偵探社 偵探社婚 偵探社 偵探社偵探家事服務家事服務家電維修家事服務家事服務家事服務家事服務家事服務持久持久持久持久持久持久持久離婚網頁設計徵信社徵信社徵信徵信社外遇離婚協議書劈腿持久持久持久持久持久劈腿剖析徵信徵信社外遇外遇外遇外遇徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信徵信社徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信公會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信公會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿

10:12 PM, April 20, 2009  
Blogger 1314 said...

視訊做愛視訊美女無碼A片情色影劇kyo成人動漫tt1069同志交友網ut同志交友網微風成人論壇6k聊天室日本 avdvd 介紹免費觀賞UT視訊美女交友..........................

10:29 PM, May 19, 2009  
Blogger 1122 said...

情色交友色情遊戲情色視訊色情色情網站非常好色天下第一色站免費視訊辣妹色色辣妺視訊免費線上a片85cc免費影片絕色影城hinet遊戲網嘟嘟成人網h漫avhello成人電影院h大奶妹做愛影片視訊做愛百分百成人av圖片aa片免費看影片做愛aaa片免費看短片成人短片

12:16 AM, June 08, 2009  

Post a Comment

<< Home