Would You Buy this Book?
Hog on Ice has a good question about all the one-sided self-help advice out there:
Would you?
Here is my question. Self-help experts tell us men need to change. Men need to be sensitive and submissive and put products in their hair and use moisturizer, because if we don't, it makes women feel bad. Okay, it makes us feel bad when women yammer all day. So why aren't the experts telling women to shut up?
Here's a thought. Maybe it's because ninety percent of self-help customers are women. They pay idiots like Oprah and Dr. Phil to tell them they're right about everything, and they get what they want. If I wrote a book called Keep Your Man by Shutting up Once in a While and Occasionally Putting Out When You Don't Want Something, I'd be preaching a vital and timely message. But nobody would buy it.
Would you?
posted by Helen at 7:53 AM
68 Comments:
Would I buy such a book? Probably not. Not only do men not need to change but neither to do.
Being a survivor of 22 years of marriage, of course I wouldn't buy the book or at least if I did buy the book it would stay in my car where the wife couldn't see it.
My ex-wife had a neat trick.
She would ask my opinion about something.
Then she would argue with me about it.
You see, she didn't really want MY opinion, she wanted reinforcement that HER opinion was correct. When she didn't get that reinforcement from me, she would get all defensive and tell me how wrong I was.
Women who watch Opra and Dr. Phil and read those self help books don't want to know what they REALLY need to do to make their lives/relationships/jobs/emotional stability better...they simply want to be told that it's all the husband/boyfriend/boss/friend/relative's fault and that THEY are the ones that need to change to fix the problems.
That's why those shows and books sell. It's really simple: Tell them what they want to hear and they will buy it.
If I wrote a non-selling self help book for women based upon my failed marriage premise number one would be:
If you don't want the answer, don't ask the question.
Second would be: If you want a partner who is always accepting of you no matter what kind of mood you are in, who never has bad moods of his own to contend with. Who never gets upset when you do stupid things and doesn't get defensive when you throw fits about him doing stupid things, who is always willing to cuddle you and pamper you, even when you don't want sex, who is always happy to see you and wants to spend every minute of every day with you...
Get a dog.
cham said: "Not only do men not need to change but neither to do."
I assume you meant: "Not only do men not need to change but neither do women."
I disagree. I think women DO need to change, or at least change their outlook. And I'm talking about American women in particular.
1) They need to start regarding men as their equals instead of regarding them as purses or disposable vermin.
2) They need to discard their sense of self-entitlement.
3) They need to work hard to help undo the damage that has been done on their behalf in feminized society and in the courts, especially the family courts.
The notions of the disposability of men and female self-entitlement have driven up the divorce rate and driven down the marriage rate, which in turn has driven up the rate of unwed motherhood and the foolish notion that a one-parent household can raise a child as well as two. Further, it has driven the destruction of self-esteem among boys, and led to exponential growth in inner-city crime.
Rusty
As a woman I have to agree with the guy that women in general tend dangerously toward nonstop chatter. It sounds unfair, but neither is it fair to consume so much air time that others can't even think. I notice my husband is much nicer to me when I just shut up for a while (without it being a pout either). It's just about balance. It took me a long, long time to learn this.
Unfortunately, this is not good training for the rest of one's life, where the talkers do indeed seem to win out, maybe by wearing everyone else out. And I have been around so many chatterboxes that I damn near forgot how to speak.
I would not buy it. But then I don't buy self-help books at all, even though I am an omnivorous reader. I tried a few and found them to be trite pap. I don't watch Oprah, and I don't watch Dr. Phil. Oprah especially annoys me. You'd think that by the time a woman gets to be her age, she'd have figured herself out. But she's constantly trying to re-invent herself
I forgot to answer the question.
No.
I wouldn't buy the book...nor would I buy my own (described above).
I don't need to be told what women need to do to fix their lives.
Here is a book I would buy:
One that honestly and forthrightly tells me what I can do to make myself a better person and partner but doesn't try to tell me that I need to become a woman to do so.
I don't want my wife to be a man...why the heck would she want me to be a woman??? Are all women lesbians?
Here is what I envision in the ultimate self-help book:
One that tells women to honor their husbands and be faithful to them. That tells them to let their husband be the man and be the head of the household. One that tells the woman to be a partner and helpmate, not a dominatrix. One that tells a woman to fulfill the sexual needs of her husband just as she expects her emotional needs to be met.
One that tells men to cherish and love their wives. One that tells men to be a good provider and to put the well being of their wives and family first. One that tells men to remain faithful to their wives and not engage in extramarital lust...even in thought or imagination. One that entreats husbands to take the lead emotionally, spiritually and physically, not to be a dictator, but a strong leader and an example to follow. One that tells men to fulfill the emotional needs of their wives just as they expect their sexual needs to be met.
Oh hey. I've read a self help book that says all of these things and more.
I think the title was something like "The Holy Bible". I'm pretty sure you could find it on Amazon.com
Nope. Don't need it. Already perfect. (Just ask my wife...)
BTW - Like the Doc's new pictures. With no offense to Mr. Doctor Helen...hubba, hubba!
When I was in teaching school they told us that little boys have to push an shove and little girls have to babble in order to interact. It doesn't have to be a bad thing. It does rquire enough consideration and regard for others to know when either mode of interaction is getting out of line.
Continual babbling is a bad thing when 1) it annoys other people or 2) the babbler mistakes talk for actual communication. Sailorcurt's example is one I experienced personally, It was the opposite of real communication.
Rusty,
I agree with what you are saying. Basically women need to become real feminists instead of passing off daddys'-little-girl entitlement off as feminism. The disposability of men you denounce is all part of that package. It is the expendiability of male lives is the foundation of any warrior society, and if women are really the peacemakers they would like to think, they will work to see that men's lives aand health are valued - equal funding for prostate cancer research, equal to breast cancer research; equal emphasis on prison rape, equality in the way that domestic violence is handled, draft registration for women, attention to the inequality in the rates of workplace injuries.
That should give them something to talk about.
I'd buy it in cartons, and give it to the Women in our circle of contacts who need it, really need it ...
... who I want to get so bloody pissed at me that they will avoid contact with us forever.
Econ-Scott
You see, she didn't really want MY opinion, she wanted reinforcement that HER opinion was correct. When she didn't get that reinforcement from me, she would get all defensive and tell me how wrong I was.
My girlfriend does this too. Even if I try to withhold my opinion about something (knowing that it might start a fight), it irritates her just as much as if I had disagreed with her. In fact, sometimes she gets upset if I don't agree with her enthusiastically enough.
rizzo:
This sounds like a doomed "relationship",
doomed.
How close to the innevitable "fish or cut bait" , "commit or Split" two year mark are you here ?
Econ-Scott
Rizzo - leave now. I was married to man who was like that and my life was hell.
Get out while you have your sanity.
I still remember when he gave me a plant and it wilted. He raved like I had committed adultery. I watered the plant and it was fine. He never apologized. That was only the tip of the iceburg.
I’d like to buy it, but my wife would get mad at me if she saw it and then she’d make me discuss my feelings or worse listen to her’s.
Being a male, I wouldn't buy it for myself but maybe as a present for some of the women I know. My 10 year old daughter talks a lot but I generally don't mind as she's usually being intellectually curious.
Boys seem to find it much easier being quiet for long spells. Over Thanksgiving weekend, I took my 13 year old son deer hunting at his request. In total we spent about 20 hours sitting together in a tree stand or blind. He had no problem limiting converstion to about 5 minutes per 2 hours and it was always task related.
Huh. I must have read an entirely different set of books than these. Most of what I have ever seen is how, as a woman, I should change this or that, play this or that game in order to accomodate "the way men are"
Honestly, Helen, I do love reading your site, for the most part ... the part that I am finding harder to tolerate anymore is the increasing levels of misogyny here. I understand that you advocate for men, and that they have gotten an unfair deal in a lot of things ... I am with you on that. But must you constantly bash women to make that point? It even seems that you take great delight in pointing out instances of female evilness.
This is hardly any different than the worst of the feminists that bash men. Just with the genders reversed. It's disgusting either way.
Anonymous 1:56:
Then I wonder why you are still reading? Wouldn't it be easier for you to listen to Oprah or visit Feministing or many of the other blogs that pretends, purports to be pro-female--all the while seeing women as victims and in need of constant advice? Here, women are held to the same standard as men, I thought that was what equality was about. If you read that as misogyny, you are misguided and this is the wrong blog for you.
And posted anonymously, imagine. Blessings on the Head of Helen for an even-handed approach to things. It's not "bashing" to point out fact, history and statistics, and this blog knows it. Note, O Anonymouse, that men are held to standards here as well, and berated when they fail them. But that's so common it hardly needs mentioning, does it?
There actually is such a book out, called "The Care and Feeding of Husbands" by Dr. Laura. More or less the advice that Hog on Ice uses for his title. More than that, of course, but those 2 really do stick out - and often stick in the craw. My wife looked through it briefly (very briefly) and said, "It just says to sleep with your husband." My patience wears thin.
"Most of what I have ever seen is how, as a woman, I should change this or that, play this or that game in order to accomodate "the way men are""
On the other hand, Anonymous, you do have a point if you are talking about that book about the Total Woman or whatever it was called. It raised quite a ruckus when it came out. On the other hand the majority of material on the subject - the barrage of articles in magazines and all - leans the other way. I remember especially a hilarious article by Germaine Greer in the Guardian, sneering and complaining about the sexual incompetence of British men, which was too, too rich, coming from Germiane Greer of all people - if you asked her if she'd ever given a man an orgasm, she'd give you the Victrola Dog look.
Helens' point is valid. The culture is so scewed and so values weakness in women - the standard for acceptable behavior is dainty, passive, underhanded, manipulative, cowardly resort to disproportionate levels of physical violence, etc - that when they experience the burdensome expectations of equality, they howl that it's just so unfair.
people complain about misogyny, but what about the obvious misandry, in the world.
i am lucky to have found a woman who can be quiet for hours at a time, like me, just being there together is fantastic.
she has learned if she doesnt leave me alone then i get annoyed, so she goes out on her own, or i do.. so we both get the peace we deserve.
the trick about men is only ask a question you want an answer too, we dont do well with all the subtexts, like does my bum look big in this.. for a lot of women it would be wrong no matter what you say.. men are not women, and women are not men..
Hell, I would buy a case. And I don't even need my wife to read it! She COULD help you write it though. You should edit and compile a volume taken from the wives of happily married, succesful men.
"Good Marriages: Stuff That Works."
But your original idea would sell a LOT. I bet one third of married couples would buy it.
Trey
The book would either bomb or be a best-seller, although it probably wouldn't show up on Oprah's booklist.
Actually, homemakers advice books from the 50's contain similar advice.
It's not framed exactly that way, but the outcome is the same.
Re: Peregrine John, Dr. Laura's book really is along the lines of what you are all looking for. I enjoyed it very much, but I don't think most women who enjoy Oprah would condescend to read it.
Rusty at 10:02 AM said,
"... 1) They need to start regarding men as their equals instead of regarding them as purses or disposable vermin.
2) They need to discard their sense of self-entitlement.
3) They need to work hard to help undo the damage that has been done on their behalf in feminized society and in the courts, especially the family courts. "
I would add,
4) Women need to accept that they can be ACCOUNTABLE for their actions.
yup.
I'm writing a self help book myself. It's going to be called "Finding Someone to Help You Through Co-Dependedcy."
friend,
Most definitely.
Rusty
I wouldn't buy it either - and I don't go for the self help books either. If you really wanted to fix something yourself, you'd do it, you wouldn't read about it.
As for arguing a point of view, my better half likes to argue for argument's sake. I've slowly gotten used to it over 14 years, and just agree. He usually ends his 'argument' within 15 minutes. At least then he lets it go. Many women just don't know how to do that.
Actually somebody already wrote the book and from what I understand it's been a pretty good seller. It's called The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands. Dr. Laura Schlessinger may not be the most accepted purveyor of help, and I haven't read the book, but from what I've heard about it it sounds a lot like what you've described.
Keith
Really the so called experts are nothing more than souless actors, vulture$, with just enough brains to realize that in general, women rarely value truth, they value anything that helps them hold up that phony self-image. And that phony image needs a lot of support, they eat it up don't they. Fantasy living, just like a soapra show, what could be more fashionable? Of course they say that men need to be more sensitive and feminine.
The last thing that's valued by the culture West is masculinity, with all the inherent rational thinking that comes along with it. All the creature comforts are just loved to death by almost everyone, but let's not talk about how they got here, let's just zero in on how that mean man isn't paying enough immediate attention to that woman!
Let's slight the male any way possible, and kick him in the crotch to boot, it's funny! She deserves the pampering now, again, she was oppressed by that kick. You know men have created almost everything in the world a woman enjoys, but still it isn't enough. Nothing will do for very long, something will soon be wrong.
The entitlement that many women have over here is so because men keep paying for it. A hooker would be a world better, some love and no childish attitude, and much, much more cost effective.
So to be fair, men need to change too, just not as much. Values must be changed. They need to stop valuing mindless women in general, yes that many, and start holding women responsible for their actions. The problem is that many men may realize that they've been suckered, but are too busy out there working to support her, so they haven't the time to educate the younger men that haven't yet been possessed. It would be mission impossible anyway, getting the truth out while at the same time holding on to any so called "life" they are allowed by the wife, the dictator.
But most men will just go with the flow when single, fall for the cunning, then live a life of misery but never, ever admit it.
If I wrote a book called Keep Your Man by Shutting up Once in a While and Occasionally Putting Out When You Don't Want Something, I'd be preaching a vital and timely message. But nobody would buy it.
Oh, I'd buy plenty of copies, preordered.
You would get so much crap for writing something like that though, a real good message for sure, and good luck with the publishing. Very brave, imagine that, calling the 2 main weapons, well, weapons! Wow, that uncomfortable truth wouldn't mix very well with the fantasy queen world.
That may lead to discussions on topics such as emotional violence, you know, the "discreet" form of violence equated with myth when brought to light. Oh mercy, men and women and children would be after you, how dare you taint the untaintable, womankind! Hell hath no fury.
The castle is crumbling!
Oooh, Dr. Helen, your hair looks so pretty.
What? Comments about hair are always on-topic.
Re: Anonymous 1:56
Vs.: "If you read that as misogyny, you are misguided and this is the wrong blog for you." - Helen
Assuming perception is nine tenths of the human condition, how does that alter one's perception?
I'd buy it, but only because the Hog on a roll can be hilarious.
Did you ever read his cookbook? I was quite literally rolling on the floor laughing at the thing.
Dr. Laura wrote that.
Sailorcurt:
Good choice. Here's another: Stu Weber's Tender Warrior. And a third: Margaret Hardisty's Forever My Love.
Possibly not too attractive to the aspiritual, doesn't sound like you fall into that category.
I wouldn't buy it. I gave away/threw out all my self help books years ago. I stopped subscribing to those mags like "Cosmo", stopped watching Oprah and Dr Phil.
I'm allot happier now, and I have allot more friends male and female.
Would you buy it if it was on the shelf at Dollar Tree for a buck?
Oprah had John Gray on several times (men are from mars, women from venus).
I'm sure he would find nothing surprising about women talking 3 times as much or men having more of their brain devoted to sex.
(Gray isn't taken seriously as a researcher, (more pop psych) but that doesn't mean he wasn't on the right track)
I went through the self-help stage in the late 80s then threw all the books out, so, no, I wouldn't buy the book. However, a reminder that the pendulum has swung a bit too far isn't a bad idea. If women have misconstrued the feminist message (competent self-reliance) its because they are really looking for another message, a rationale to do what they want to anyway, and those people (men can be guilty of this, too) may read the books but they aren't good at getting the intended message.
On the other topic, nice pictures, Dr. Helen, especially the one in pajamas.
Retread
Possibly not too attractive to the aspiritual, doesn't sound like you fall into that category.
You don't necessarily have to be "spiritual", "religious" or "Christian" to appreciate the basic truths of the Judeo-Christian based philosophy. The basic fact is that the keys to successful relationships have been known for thousands of years. None of the writings of modern marriage counselors, psychologists etc are telling us anything new, they are just repackaging the things that I learned in bible school as a child in modern terminology and lending them the air of "psychological legitimacy".
Granted, sometimes the Bible can be hard to understand because the context, times and languages have changed so much over the years, but if you actually study it, seek the true meaning of the difficult passages and identify the life lessons that you can apply to your everyday life you will soon realize that the Bible is just as applicable today as it ever has been.
Even if you don't espouse the Christian Religion, or any religion for that matter, as a basis for a "philosophy for life" the Bible cannot be dismissed out of hand...especially the teachings of Jesus and the New Testament.
Most of what I have ever seen is how, as a woman, I should change this or that, play this or that game in order to accomodate "the way men are"
If the books you are reading are instructing you to "play this or that game", you are barking up the wrong tree. Perhaps you should stop relying on check out counter magazines for your relationship advice.
Here is a phenomenon that I have noticed time and again: Women tend to be instinctively attracted to strong, confident men. Those are character traits that most women seek out when selecting someone with which to have a relationship.
As soon as the relationship becomes committed, women of Western Society immediately expect the man to become docile and compliant.
Important dating tip: If you want a docile and compliant husband, you should probably select docile and compliant men to date. If you find yourself dating strong, confident men, they are going to become strong, confident husbands.
No games required...just make up your mind what you want and stick with that. There are plenty of docile, compliant men out there to choose from if that's the kind of husband you want.
"Here is a phenomenon that I have noticed time and again: Women tend to be instinctively attracted to strong, confident men. Those are character traits that most women seek out when selecting someone with which to have a relationship.
As soon as the relationship becomes committed, women of Western Society immediately expect the man to become docile and compliant. "
Valid. Someone somewhere did a study with women and men's used T-shirts that suppports this observation. Can't remember where I saw this. The women were given a selection of T-shirts to sniff asked to comment (I hoped they were getting paid well for this!) During ovulation the test subjects were attracted to the shirts worn by men who were genetically as difenret as possible from them. This is the bad boy end of the spectrum. It makes good eveolutionary sense. But then for the rest of the cycle these they found this scent repulsive and preferred the scent of their own brothers, as unthreatening as possible. The theory they developed to explain the results was that the responses dated back to a stage in our eveolution befor pair bonding had evolve (and there is ample evidence in other primate species) and that once they female had gotten hold of the strnage genes, she only wanted to be around the most familiar and unthreatening males available. Doesn't do much for that thrill of romance.
kathy,
I suspect you're someone who didn't "need" the book as many do, but rather found that it gave insights, strengthening what you always suspected into something concrete. Just a guess. Alas that the Opraholics are unlikely to read it, even though she (cleverly) titled it with something that sounds condescending to men.
Anony 1:56 here ... Kristie, if you like. Or Betty. Mary, perhaps? Aren't we all fairly anonymous here? Or is that only used to bash those with opposing view points?
Anyway,
Helen said:
*****Then I wonder why you are still reading? Wouldn't it be easier for you to listen to Oprah or visit Feministing or many of the other blogs that pretends, purports to be pro-female--all the while seeing women as victims and in need of constant advice? Here, women are held to the same standard as men, I thought that was what equality was about. If you read that as misogyny, you are misguided and this is the wrong blog for you.*****
Why, I am surprised, Helen. Who would have thought that your response to a gentle criticism, wrapped in praise no less, would be so typically ... female.
Color me shocked.
Why am I still reading? Because I like most of what you have to say. Did you miss that part of my first post? Apparently so. Same goes for most of the rest of it. Again, typically female response, you chose to only address the critique, magnify and exaggerate it, then make a shrill counter-attack that totally ignores what I really did say and attempts to paint me as some Feminazi freak.
Perhaps I should re-phrase?
I am just as disgusted with the woman-bashing that goes along with advocacy of men's right as I am the man-bashing that goes with advocacy of women's rights.
What I have been seeing here is a slide into woman-bashing. Sometimes what I read here evokes feelings of shame just because I am a woman.
Kinda like the feeling men get from strident feminists.
It's the same feeling, just with the genders reversed.
If criticism isn't something you wish to deal with (and why have blog in the first place, if criticism isn't tolerated?), consider this an observation, if you wish, one that is pointing out the slide towards a mirror-image of the kind of feminism that gave equal rights a bad name. Then consider whether that is what you really want to convey.
And the inevitable backlash...
www.nomarriage.com
Anon 1:45 -- in total agreement. It's a shame that a few really good blogs by women have been destroyed by a handful of hateful, bigoted males who latched onto "mens rights" as an excuse for their divorces, but there it is. This isn't the first one I've dropped for that reason, unfortunately. Seriously, constantly slamming American women, championing mail order brides, painting all women as loud-mouth materialistic bunco artists, advocating signed agreements excusing men from responsibility for the results of sex? This is "mens rights"?? Rights to what? Women who will shut up/put up/put out and do it on a dime? Is this you, Helen? Otherwise, I really, really don't get it.
In order to remain happy, a married man must lie to his wife early and often.
1. "Should I change my hair style?" Safe: Why would you want to?
Walking through a mine field at midnight is safer than answering this one.
2. "Does my butt look big?" Safe: No.
I'm sure its only a coincidence that you can't get into the jeans you bought last year.
3. "Am I better looking than XXX?" Safe: Of course.
If she was asking about Angelina Jolie, pinch the fleshy area between your thumb and forefinger when answering.
4. "Do you still love me?" Safe: Of course I do.
You might practice for this one; you never know when she will ask it and you MUST answer instantly.
5. "If I died, would you re-marry?" Safe: Please, let's don't even think about that.
Most people don't want to drink poison twice.
6. "Do I look like my mother?" Safe: Only when you laugh.
Does a bird fly?
There are lots more.
Anon 4:54, I don't recall very many people on this blog "championing mail order brides", and certainly Dr. Helen did not. I recently posted a request that the people who use the term derogatorily and speak of men who pursue such things with bilious contempt actually define their terms, and I gave some examples of the boundary conditions I was looking for.
I did this on Dr. Helen's blog as part of a discussion in which such contempt was expressed because, contrary to your statement, it is far more likely for that point of view to be expressed here than a supporting one.
I did not anticipate, although I should have, that someone would take that as evidence of Dr. Helen or the participants on this blog supporting a particular (still undefined) point of view, and for that, Dr. Helen, I apologize.
However, Anon 4:54, as long as you're here and expressing said contempt, perhaps you'd care to reveal what you mean by the term?
I'll add my two cents on Dr. Laura's The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands. I bought it, even though my husband said I was already doing a good job of it; I wanted to see if she had any tips for how I could do even better. She did: Don't talk so much! I go into too much detail, and sometimes, my spouse hurries me along. Just too much.
She did not, however, also tell husbands how to be better at loving their wives, meeting their wife's needs, etc. She made the point repeatedly that the wife who gives her husband the respect and appreciation he craves will find him knocking himself out to be loving, helpful, present, and faithful. The rare case who abuses a wife's respect and appreciation is just a bad choice, all the way around.
However, sailorcurt, I also support your endorsement of the Bible as containing the guidelines for both men and women, husbands and wives. There's just a lot of misunderstanding about it, though. That whole "submissive wife" routine of the early '70s spawned a lot of stinkin' thinking.
Kristie/Betty/Mary: You ROCK. This blog has become a haven for guys who whine about their exes. Sometimes I get the feeling that Helen's clients are her biggest fans here. Why do I still read this blog? Same reason I stare at those guys with tattoos on their necks. There is something really creepy about this blog.
Oooo....
If the intent was simply to sell books, you might consider the common practice of re-packaging ancient truisms and disingeniously calling it "The road to Self-rightious Indignation.(a victims
anthology)".
It would disappoint the buyer upon review of course, but it would certainly make the top ten of lists based purely on sales.
Recognition and acclaim would come later as "the book whiners complain about" type accolades shoot it into "important books on the subject" syllabi.
Not sure such a book could knock a Nathanson/Young collaboration off their current pedestals though.
Anon wrote: "Same reason I stare at those guys with tattoos on their necks. There is something really creepy about this blog."
Sounds like a personal issue to me. You know, books and covers.
Trey
Anon11:02pm said...
Kristie/Betty/Mary: You ROCK. This blog has become a haven for guys who whine about their exes. Sometimes I get the feeling that Helen's clients are her biggest fans here. Why do I still read this blog? Same reason I stare at those guys with tattoos on their necks. There is something really creepy about this blog.
Like a shivering dog barking at a storm, but you actually feel you like it. Hysterical. Doggy need a bone?
Okay, so people with strange tattoos or tattoos in strange places or people with odd piercings or people with weird hair...they might all be perfectly nice people. Granted. In fact, I like some of them very much. But it doesn't stop me from staring and wondering at the strangeness of it all, the way I read this blog and wonder at the very strangeness of so many angry men in one place. Individually, you may each be wonderful people...or perhaps you were before your woman done you wrong or perhaps you would be if you just found the right woman or if you could avoid women altogether.
"Anon 1:45 -- in total agreement. It's a shame that a few really good blogs by women have been destroyed by a handful of hateful, bigoted males who latched onto "mens rights" as an excuse for their divorces, but there it is. "
"Kristie/Betty/Mary: You ROCK. This blog has become a haven for guys who whine about their exes. "
Well, well, a string of commnets that validate the general complaint that women can't stand the slightest scrtuiny of their behavior without whining about "woman-bashing" and "misogyny". And look, these comments come from people too timid to use their names. How dainty. Cowards and weaklings, and they wonder why men hold them in contempt.
And then there's
"But it doesn't stop me from staring and wondering at the strangeness of it all, the way I read this blog and wonder at the very strangeness of so many angry men in one place. "
If this is strange to you, you must not get out much, and you obviously don't relate well to men on any kind of level of honesty. You might want to get out and talk to some men in an atmosphere of real dialogue, where you listen to what they are saying as much as you expect them to listen to you, and show some respect for their feeelings as much as you expect that from them, and you would find that these opinions are not at all rare, other than in situations where they are angling to get laid. This may be a whole new experience for you. The snide little Mother's-little-know-it-all-helper tone such as you use above will not help, and will show that you are not seriously interested in a dialogue.
Pathetic Tinkereblls.
Anonymous 3:33:
Jim is correct, you really need to get out more--apparently your world is very closed and you can only deal with others who think and act in a manner that is consistent with your worldview. The ideas and comments in this blog are really very typical of how many men feel--are you just threatened that the internet allows people who have common interests to find each other and share their views? If so, I have to wonder whether you are the one who is really angry and strange.
Helen,
I apologize for the name-calling. Commenters are your guests and rudeness to a guest is rudeness to the host/ess.
That said, I find that many women don't know hw to relate to men becuase men do alll the work of figuring out how to relate to women - what work gets done, because God knows men often don't know what to say to the women they encounter.
I enjoy Helen's posts, but I agree sometimes the comboxes can get kinda weird...just like a deep wound, a shriek of pain, the combox equivalent of the painting of The Scream.
Still, it takes two to tango. Why do women become shrill harpy manipulative unaccountable bitches? Perhaps because they have been used by men in the past and bear some wounds and just can't be as openhearted any more. Male or female, anyone I've met who's been cynical or hardened or suspicious of the other sex or casting aspersions of misogyny/misandry too casually is really just at the core of things used/hurt. Wish I knew a way out of it.
If there is one. That's Biblical too. Effects of the Fall. The lording over and the desire. It's all messed up by nature and no self-help book can heal it, and neither can a feminist or a masculinist movement. Only love and forgiveness (generosity and sacrifice) can, in a relationship of mutual submission (Ephesians 5). That calls man and woman both to get over their selfishness; that's a little tougher than complaining about selfish women interfering with men's desire for their own selfishness to take precedence. Everything's so self self self. Even SELF help books! The SELF can be a trap and a prison; the narcissism of the self fixation can lead to depression IMHO. One of the best books I've ever read (among counseling profession books) was called Other Esteem, written by an Asian psychologist.
I'm rambling. I just think there's a lot of woundedness as a result of our modern social and sexual patterns and that's what leads to men's and women's pain. sex off the hook while you point fingers at the other sex. It's a mutually reinforcing/reacting/damaging sick system.
Something I see: women act damaged and fragile and infantile because men love to ride in like the knight in shining armor. It makes them feel like a man. Warning to the knights: she will ALWAYS be the damsel in distress because it works, you proved it. You don't just save her once, you will as long as you are in this game with her. Grow up already. Your knight fantasies leave us happy, well-adjusted, strong, healthy women who DON'T need saving out in the cold. I refuse to pretend I'm a damsel in distress when I'm not. Why are you afraid of us? Can you be a strong, happy, healthy, well-adjusted man without the compulsion to rescue? Can you divert that compulsion more positively, perhaps by becoming a volunteer firefighter? LOL
Hmm...combox ate part of a sentence. Should read, "Don't let your own sex off the hook while you point fingers at the other sex."
The sentence as above, starting with "sex off the hook..." makes it sound like I'm talking about phone sex. I'm not! Promise!
If you read that as misogyny, you are misguided and this is the wrong blog for you.
Sorry Helen. Much of what you write in "advocating" for men stereotypes women. "If I wrote a book called Keep Your Man by Shutting up Once in a While and Occasionally Putting Out When You Don't Want Something..."
No, I would not buy a book like this. If some well meaning soul gave your child this book at a wedding shower, and advised her to let her husband lead in all things and "put out", would you applaud?
I suspect when your child becomes a woman, much of what you preach here will not apply to her. Like Mary Cheney, for example. One thing for others, another for your own.
It is unfortunate that people think that women are being stereotyped here. The problem is that "a malign subculture holding the base, criminal, or downright evil nature of all men exhibiting traditionally male characteristics (if not merely the genitalia) and pervasively held, consciously or subconsciously, and acted upon by the majority of American women, as evidenced in all manifestations of the American Zeitgeist, if not the lifetime experience of most American men" is an unwieldy mouthful. And, the technologically-imposed terse nature of the blog posting being what it is, the whole thing frequently gets shortened to "women".
Which is not to say that the entire female gender is not occasionally and unjustly painted with a broad brush (no pun intended) in the comments, but I've found that to be more the exception than the rule.
Anonymous 11:08:
Nowhere in my post did I say that this was the appropriate book to give to women on their wedding day. The self-help industry has multitudes of books for women on how to deal with the dud man in their life. There are few books like this for men and there are no talk shows I know of on tv that advocate for men's views in the way that they advocate for women's views. Maybe people should quit listening to such trash altogether but if not, at least let there be a variety of opinions to choose from--men have just as much room to gripe as women, the difference is when they do, they are held in contempt by society. Women are seen as heroic for standing up for themselves. Men are seen as angry, bitter whiners. The difference in the attitude of society is what I am interested in, not a particular book being written etc.
To Anon 1:56; The reason you believed, wrongly, that the criticism of women here is " women
bashing " is merely because suh a thing is almost unheard of in modern society, while male bashing goes on on every channel, on every hour, and most of all in women's media, from Oprah and Dr. Phil
( Who has a vagina, but no balls )
while you just miss noting it.
What you are actually complaining about is that, here, and in a few other places on the 'Net, women get equality good and hard. Well, take it like a man !
If you don't like seeing proof that women DO talk on and on about... nothing, well, thats your own problem and no one else's. Making you feel unhappy about the truth is NOT " misogyny ". For the real story about the culture of misandry that is now, read Paul Nathanson's & Katherine Young's pair of excellent works " Spreading Misandry ", and " Spreading Misandry ". I'd add in Sanford Braver's " Divorced Dads;
Shattering The Myths ", and two by Dr. Warren Farrell " The Myth Of Male Power ", and " Why Men Earn More ", which blows the doors off of the common myth that women get paid less for equal work, which isn't true. Add in Philip W. Cook's " Abused Men ", which shows that half of all domestic violence is female-on-male violence, and you might just begin to see how SMALL your complaint, Anon 1:56, really is, when set next to the HATE that men face every single hour of our lives. Until YOU do something to stop that hate, well then, you are a part of the problem and not a solution. At least Dr. Helen is doing such a something. At least folks helping to point out misandry are doing something. Until YOU, Anon 1:56 do something positive, you have zero cause to complain about those who are.
Men should check out No More Mr. Nice Guy. I found it very helpful myself, as did several of my friends.
I'm with the commenter who complained about all the woman-bashing, except she (I presume it's a she) is incorrectly blaming Dr. Helen when it's really the other commenters that keep popping out with the "all women are evil gold digging b*tches".
Most women are not evil gold digging b*tches, but women and men are not the same, and both need to adjust a bit to live with each other. Well, and if you're trying to meet Suzi Homemaker at Club Love, guess what...
No, she was right to call Dr. Helen on encouraging these mysogynistic posters. Supporting Hog on Ice's "Keep Your Man by Shutting up Once in a While and Occasionally Putting Out When You Don't Want Something" post was totally unprofessional and inappropriate for a forensic psychologist who should know that this kind of language encourages violence against women, and thus, violent kids--- supposedly her speciality!
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