Podcast Interview: Orson Scott Card
Orson Scott Card is a New York Times bestseller; he is the author of Ender's Game, a book that has been cited as one of the sources of the Afghanistan battle plan and is currently under option for a Hollywood movie by Warner Brothers.
He has a new book out today, Empire,
a fascinating thriller set in 2008 that tells the story of what will happen if the political polarization in America continues to divide this country on the issues. Card believes our country is divided between the urban, academic, and high-tech counties and the suburban, rural, southern, and conservative Christian counties. Can this polarization lead to another American Civil War? What can the average person do to make sure this doesn't happen?Join us for this futuristic podcast with Mr.Card by clicking here to listen directly or for dial-up users by clicking here. You can visit our archives here to view our previous podcasts.
This podcast is sponsored by Volvo at volvocars.us.
posted by Helen at 12:14 PM
51 Comments:
Very interesting. Still waiting for the Dr Helen video podcast, though.
But what of us oddballs -- Pajamas Media's Freerangers -- who are neither suburban, rural, southern nor conservative Christian?
Helen -
That was a great podcast. I particularly liked Scott's take on the US as the "global policeman". So often I'm tempted to think that the US ought to just pull back and let the Europeans and others see what the world would be like without us enabling all this free commerce. But clearly the costs would be huge. So we "soldier" on.
But one criticism. He addressed the issue of seemingly unrelated policies falling under the "red" or "blue" labels. But one of the strengths of the American system is that by having only two parties, we force people into broad coalitions, and thereby make them compromise a bit more (unlike the unstable party coalitions you see in some European parliamentary systems). So to me, the fact that pro-death penalty and anti-abortion types are in the same party is more a strength of the system than a weakness. Think how little would get done if they had their own parties!
And finally, I completely identified with the types of conversations he describes with people who are unaccustomed to speaking outside their own social groups. Being the only businessperson in a family of liberal college professors and journalists, I get this all the time. For many years, I tried his strategy of parsing the intellectual underpinnings of their arguments, but (after years of frustration) I now simply change the conversation to the weather or some equally neutral subject. Their loss, no?
Anyway, great show and I will read the book.
Jake
Orson Scott Card seems like an interesting person, and I've heard good things about his past novels (though haven't gotten around to reading them), so I'll be picking up Empire.
Like he said, it won't happen here, but it's not completely implausible, either.
And always, an engaging and informative podcast.
You and Prof. Reynolds have this down to a science now.
(a legitimate science, not some non-empirical, touchy-feely, politically correct masquerade of a science, of course)
america as global policemen, from a person who lives in europe, in england to be exact, we would love it for the american government to go back to its own country and deal with the problems there..
we got brought into a 2 pronged war, afghanistan and now iraq. we didnt want too be, we were pressured because of our slimy toad of a PM (who may be arrested for fraud)
to this british person, american government wants to force everyone into a copy of america, everyone with one mind under bush or whoever.. beacuse of the money america governments throw at the problem and hope it will go away.
enabling free commerce what arrogance, america is god, america is the best, america need to run the world. what about britain, arent we important, france, or does the world have to obey america, because they have the biggest guns. (slight sarcasm there but thats what a lot of people in europe beleive america is doing).. i know its not all like that hell my fiance is america but wants to be british citizen.. but i know if the american army went home, we wouldnt be as nervous as we are.
Anonymous is 2 parties really fair, why not 3, a middle way, 2 extremes and a middle way. with a 2 party system you only get 2 chances.
the UK has many, tory, labour, lib dems, the british national party(nazis basically), uk independance party, and more.. isnt that fairer than just 2..
Mercurior, you are a prime example of why I would love to leave Old Whiney or Old Barmy or whatever you call your country to it's shabby fate.
I've been to England. You are all well past your use by date.
@ Mercurior
How's the weather these days in the UK? I hope the sun is breaking through now and again. Word is that it might be a chilly winter. Bundle up!
Best to all,
Jake
I always enjoy Europeans going on about American Imperialism. They seem particularly angry about McDonalds and Baywatch.
The fact that Americans kept the Soviets from rolling over most of Europe for fifty years seems forgotten---though I have heard lots of Euroweenies prattling on about how that never would have happened (notice that you never heard a Czech say that).
Americans kept Europe from becoming Pan-Germany, twice, during the 20th Century.
By the way, was America ever repaid for the Marshall Plan? I mean, if Europeans can't even be polite, perhaps they should just simply pay America back.
If America is the Great Satan, they sure have a strange way of showing it.
But more power to the Europeans. We'll see how they will enjoy their multiculturalism over the next 25 years.
Mercurior - after you are finished bitching about America, go get your teeth fixed.
The first 5 chapters of the book are on his website. The second chapter which takes place in a university doesn't really spring true to life to me.
The constant calling "soldier boy" just isn't realistic, an academic isn't just going to consistently insult a student to his face that way. Plus, the professor sounded like an old school conservative to be a left-wing icon. And he's far too plain-spoken. As people coming from an academic environment did this ring true.
I have to disagree, Jacob. I work in academia, and this kind of thing happens often.
Here is a thought experiment: have a professor on campus wear a "NO BLOOD FOR OIL" button for a month. Have him thumbtack a "BUCK FUSH" bumper sticker to his office door.
No one will say a word.
Now, have the professor wear a "I SUPPORT THE TROOPS" button, and thumbtack a "I SUPPORT THE PRESIDENT" bumper sticker on this office door.
Do you know what would happen?
Sure you do.
see personal insults, because i dared say what a lot of people here feel. see this is the arrogance, america must be better than everyone, because we are america. this is what makes a lot of people dislike american policies. and jake the weather is brilliant here sunny if not a little cold.
and the saving of britain from being german, hell some of your presidents and presidents father had leanings towards nazism. it was only when the japanese attacked you, did you join in, your president didnt want to join the war.
as mercurior says, but i am sure this episode is forgotten
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_P._Kennedy,_Sr.#Anti-Semitism
According to Harvey Klemmer, who served as one of Kennedy's embassy aides, Kennedy habitually referred to Jews as "kikes or sheenies." Kennedy allegedly told Klemmer that "[some] individual Jews are all right, Harvey, but as a race they stink. They spoil everything they touch."[5] When Klemmer returned from a trip to Germany and reported the pattern of vandalism and assault on Jews by Nazis, Kennedy responded "well, they brought it on themselves."[6]
Kennedy had a close friendship with Nancy Astor, who shared (and perhaps surpassed) his hatred of the Jews; the correspondence between them is replete with anti-Semitic tropes.[9] As Edward Renehan notes:
As fiercely anti-Communist as they were anti-Semitic, Kennedy and Astor looked upon Adolf Hitler as a welcome solution to both of these "world problems" (Nancy's phrase). No member of the so-called "Cliveden Set" (the informal cabal of appeasers who met frequently at Nancy Astor's palatial home) seemed much concerned with the dilemma faced by Jews under the Reich. Astor wrote Kennedy that Hitler would have to do more than just "give a rough time" to "the killers of Christ" before she'd be in favor of launching "Armageddon to save them. The wheel of history swings round as the Lord would have it. Who are we to stand in the way of the future?" Kennedy replied that he expected the "Jew media" in the United States to become a problem, that "Jewish pundits in New York and Los Angeles" were already making noises contrived to "set a match to the fuse of the world."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States#World_War_I_and_II
For historical reasons, American sympathies were very much in favor of the British and French, even though a sizable number of citizens, mostly Irish and German, were opposed to intervention.[18] After the war, the Senate did not ratify the Treaty of Versailles because of a fear that it would pull the United States into European affairs. Instead, the country pursued a policy of unilateralism that bordered at times on isolationism.[19]
The nation did not fully recover until 1941, when the United States was driven to join the Allies against the Axis Powers after a surprise attack on Pearl Harbor by Japan. World War II was the costliest war in economic terms in American history,[20][21] but it helped to pull the economy out of depression because the required production of military materiel provided much-needed jobs, and women entered the workforce in large numbers for the first time
armchair anarchist - to convince us, you will have to come up with much more credible sources than Wikipedia.
Mercurior: say what you will, you Brits are still sore that your mighty Empire has gone away, and that the "bloody Pakis/Indians/Aficans" who you all used to lord it over, are now taking over your country. So, now you all hate America, becasue America is a symbol of what the UK would like to be, but cant.
I have seen this appalling posting by someone named Jake. He needs his mouth washed out and his brain if he has one working properly - I too am from England and remember well the antics of Joe Kennedy (Nazi sympathiser he was) and this is not from Wikepedia, but from actual experience.
I also remember that the Yanks twice left Europe to deal with WW1 and WW2, only coming in on the last minute when it actually affected them.
Also, We were dragged into things standing Shoulder to Shoulder with the Yanks, if they are so good at being the National Policemen why did they have to beg for our assistance could they not have done it by themselves.
Also, The idea of Bush to go into Iraq was to finish off the mess Daddy Bush left behind when he pulled the troops out 10 years earlier and to get their smutty hands on the oil. This is what is is all about, not the people being destroyed by a viscious facist leader.
As for your comments albeit they are racist comments about India, Pakistan and Africa - we did give them their Independence and what happened after that, they couldn't run their countries, it was not as easy as they imagined.
As for wanting to be like USA in your dreams anon 9.48, you have more problems than are in Great Britain, you have gun crime of immense volume, you have invasion as you say of the Mexicans and cannot control it.
Seems to me you are so pathetic that you have to use this offensive diatribe at people who you cannot in your wildest dreams begin to imagine what they have in this country.
You need to read what Ben Franklin said about the United States all that time ago and how much time Ben Franklin lived in Great Britain and Europe then you maybe start to understand. He had serious doubts about the War of Independence -and that is published
fact.
I can see that you are eaten up with jealousy Anon you don't even have the brains to use a proper identification.
When you have as much history and knowledge of running a country as Great Britain has, then you will be entitled to criticise.
America was evolved by people from ~Great Britain and Europe by the way.
Dear Giselle:
Are you quite certain you want to discuss Nazi sympathizers during WWII?
Winston Churchill had an interesting time dealing with plenty of British Nazi sympathizers---even at the very highest levels.
That too is an established fact.
As for the rest of your charming criticisms, do continue the name calling. I note that you do this while buying American products, and watching American media.
ok, http://hnn.us/articles/697.html
try this.
Hey, I'll tell you what: let's play historical poker.
I'll see you the father of a future President being a Nazi sympathizer and raise you the former King of the the United Kingdom:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_VIII
Still want to play?
What do you say we all just move on? You don't have to buy any more American products (nor pay the US back for the Lend-Lease debts that are still outstanding), and I'll promise to continue to brush my teeth more regularly than most Britons.
Giselle - I am Indian so dont dare to call me a racist - the common racism that an Indian like me faces even in a supposedly hip city run by Red Ken, is a lot worse that what I have faced in backwaters America. All you complaints are nothing but envy, you Brits are just unhappy that you all are not the center of the world, and the world is no longer your Empire.
And while you are at it, stop whining about how bad the Yanks are, and go and get your teeth fixed. The National Health Service provides really great dental service, I see. heck, in the USA, even homeless bums get better dental services at free clinics.
anonymous,
I could sure see a professor doing all those things but not systematically calling one of his students "soldier boy". If he was going to insult him I would see it used more as a one time thing and more insulting something like "baby-killer" or the such.
When I see the ridiculous posturing of the likes of Mercurior and giselle, I think I have a better understanding of why the European elites (and, yes, the elites within the U.K. are basically European) favored Kerry so much. They felt a certain affinity with a kept man.
ok, first of, the idea that all british people have bad teeth is a myth, its also racist as far as i know british people are actually a race.
this is the arrogance that all of europe sees that is what is shown as being american really means.
can you really blame the brits for being all told to get their teeth fixed, because you watched austin powers..
and anon 424, just because you are part of an ethnic minority doesnt mean your not a racist, you can be asian, and hate whites, thats racist isnt it.
europe sees the bully boy mentality of american government and they dislike that attitude. can you really blame them, look at all the problems the wars in iraq have caused.. american plan, up in smoke.. bullying other people personally or in a nationally way, is wrong. do too much and you would be as big a threat as saddam, or hitler.
is it americas view point or no one else's matters, as far as i recall britain isnt part of america, neither is europe, why should be bow down to the all great american state.
we didnt care about kerry, or bush, to most of us here they are pretty much the same,
(of course i bet i will b insulted again because i dont speak proper like what we americans do.. or that i need my teeth fixing)
see this is just the attitude, this my way or no way, that turns europeans into anti americans. this is the attitude that turns so many people into the clutches of cults and dangerous groups.
the arrogance of a few people, who do not know about the UK, have never been here. those people who moan about getting our teeth fixed, have you ever been to the UK, and experienced the people.. or are you just going of tv shows.
to a lot of the world powers america is seen as a bully. is this how you wish to be seen. all the comments about british teeth only reinforces that attitude.
the people who say about the teeth you really are racists. of whatever racial group, you are racist.
Anon is acting as a racist as he brought up the subject that he was Indian, now why would we want to know that. he also referred to another Asian person is a totally unacceptable derogatory manner ie. racist.
He also wanted me to respond to his comments about King Edward VIII, very funny indeed it was in fact his American twice divorced wife that caused the problems in Britain in the first place and then by her friendship with Goering, Hess and Hitler which is documented.
We were asked to assist when the dreadful terrorist attack happened, because the USA did not have any systems in place to deal with the matter, yet again they thought they were invulnerable. Unfortunately no one is invulnerable in those acts.
Then after Bush had been doing his warmongering in Iraq, who was it that stood by him, I think the remarks were "Shoulder to shoulder" when he got Blair to help out.
Europeans especially see the Americans as being bullies, even as tourists, they push and shove their way to the front, they do not wait in line or turn as normal well mannered people do.
I have a booklet that was issued to the AMerican forces in WW2 posted in Britain giving them instructions on how to behave themselves, this was published by the then American Government. this says it all.
As for our Health Service we have in recent times had to stop people from outside Britain coming on holiday knowing full well they needed hospital treatment and which surprise surprise they had to be taken to hospital during that visit and had the operations done for FREE out of the pockets of the British people.
Don't tell me this is right.
As for teeth we do not encourage children to go through hell with unneccessary dental treatment just to line the pockets of dentists or orthodontists.
anon 424and since when is london the UK, visit bradford, leeds, rusholme in manchester, more indians there than you can imagine
Teeth, eh? Nice way to sterotype, dude. You would not like it if sterotypes were trotted out about your nation of origin, so don't stoop so low. BTW, yes you can be of a minority, and still be racist. Racisim is not the sole territory of caucasians.
If Britain is so bad, why are most places in Britain safer than most places in the US? Why are most Britons far more well mannered than most Americans? Britain as a nation is an adult, whilst the US is still a child. Grow up some before you slag off.
Aren't they so cuuute when they're angry?
Again, I am amazed by the bluster and ignorance of my so-called "betters" in the UK. Such snobs.
But one thing amused me.
Wallis Simpson was RESPONSIBLE for Edward's Nazi attitudes? Really? Very liberated of you, to blame a woman for a man's adoration of fascists and fascism. But it fits your juvenile model that Americans are responsible for everything bad in the world---and thereby giving a pass to the actions and choices of everyone else.
So, in your view, Edward's fascist tendencies were because of the woman with whom he associated and later married? Except Edward had those proclivities---and a horribly racist set of attitudes, to boot---prior to meeting Wallis.
And *I* have to tell a Briton about her own recent history? The facts I just stated were in the reference I listed---including a long list of Edward's racist comments!
I guess that Wallis Simpson was responsible for that, too.
But this isn't about history. In fact, since it is clear to me that you don't know your own history, let alone American history, I would urge you not to get into spitting contests about foreign policy or world affairs. Trust me, you really don't.
I can start with the Opium Wars and go right up to Blair and the Saudis. So just move on, would you?
Folks like you blame America for everything. No one else, apparently, has free will. Puh-leeze. Take your irrational psychological projection of Daddy-hatred elsewhere.
It is about a nasty set of trolls. We have their ilk, posting to Daily Kos. I'm more amused by this nonsense than irritated.
The Brits certainly do have horrific teeth.
i can see racism still exists in the land of the free. of course i cant see why a lot of people dislike americans or american policies (sarcasm off).
repeating the same remarks, about bad teeth, is just a form of racism, if thats what you really think of the british, why is bush so pally with blair who is as far as i know british.
you dont like us, and you wonder why we dont like you, strangely you can use that same thing for other people. i actually feel sorry for you, for your self absorbed holier than thou attitudes, that no one is better than amerika. all hail amerika, the saviour of the planet whether it wants to be "saved" by them at all.
So I recommend you never buy any American products, nor watch any America movies, nor read an American book.
I have no problem with polite Britons. I do find snide snobs who blame America for everyone's problems ---and who hypocritically refuse to apply the same level of analysis to their own country and themselves---tiresome.
The tooth commentary is one I use whenever I run into Britons who stereotype Americans. It's like needling French people about shaving under their arms.
Well, well well. Looks like we Yanks have gotten the Brits all hot and bothered. BTW, you Brit snobs, I studied at LSE for a year, and had time to travel all over the British Isles. And tell you what, except for a bunch of leftist snobs with rotten teeth like Mercurior and Giselle, most Brits actually like the USA, and have no love lost for folks like you, followers of the likes of George Galloway and Red Ken.
So, complain away all you want, the USA is a superior country, and nothing is going to change that. Sit there in your pubs, and drinks some warm beer
You are nothing but a bullying racist, who by their own admission is Indian so what have you got to do with America in the first place.
you generalise regarding people and have never bothered to look at your own self.
Not all British people have bad teeth, and what is this obsession, I suggest you get someone to talk to you about your obsessive behaviour.
As for your choice of University you most certainly chose the most left wing one you could possible find.why was that, did the better ones turn you down or where they simply too expensive.
You presume far too much with regards to my political beliefs.
I by the way have excellent teeth, all my own, no crowns, no fillings, just a good diet all my life and cleaning them properly.
I have never eaten a McDonalds or KFC in my life and don't wish to.
For your information I do not buy American products, nor do I watch any present day American films. I don't know why I would need to when we have superior goods made locally.
Believe me it would take more than an object like you to get me hot and bothered. You flatter yourself.
As for our beer, it is served at the correct temperature which is three degrees below room temperature, anything colder than that and the taste starts to disappear which actually may be an advantage with some American Beers and things that claim to be beer like Budweiser (not the proper Czech version) just the pretend stuff.
If you are so superior, how come the dollar is going through the floor and sterling is much superior to the dollar.
We are not going through a money crisis you are in a 14 year low
People are worried that the CHINESE will stop financing the USA DEFICITS thats a sign of a superior country isn't it?
I think its' pretty important that we remember the likes of mercurior or giselle aren't representative of all Britains, only a particular class of Britains. I've run into them on a few occaisions. They've come of age post-Thatcher and post-EU. They've a bit of education and are doing all-in-all pretty well in the modern U.K. Nonetheless, they mistake the egalitarian bromides they spout off as intellectualism and the vast array of consumer goods they've gained wider access to for sophistication. And make no mistake, they never fail to lord it over their "inferiors". Now these loud, enthusiastic, and, yes, unassuming hordes cross them - these Americans, these Yanks - come along and take one great big pee on their parade.
"You get your news from the BBC. Oh well, I guess we all got to tet our news from somewhere."
"Hey, that is some pretty good wine, I'll take a case. Can I get it duty free?"
Now imagine, your whole worldview shattered. It's not that the Americans put on airs. That would be tolerable. You could either trump them or at least relate on some level. No, the problem is just the opposite. They treat every little aspect of the little coccoon you've built to establish your superiority as, well, nothing all that special.
It's no wonder they feel free to come onto the blog of an American author and spew invective and contempt. Americans rob them of their self-image.
Actually, to the one who asked about the Lend Lease debts -- there weren't supposed to be any. It was never to be repaid. That changed in Sept of 45, more on that in a but.
And to whose utter ignorance of history leads them to think the US did nothing in WWII prior to Pearl Harbor, at least study a little history before speaking. Lend Lease began in March of 1941 which, for the historically impaired, was 9 months before Pearl. England slurped up $31B of the $50B dispensed.
To be fair to the UK, when Lend Lease was terminated after VJ day, England began paying for supplies in the pipleline but not yet delivered -- at about 10% of fair price. It was supposed to be paid out across 50 years at 2% interest, and was expected (last I checked) to be completed this month.
I loved FDR's analogy -- when your neighbor's house is on fire, you load hime your hose to put it out. You don't expect a lot of interest, you just want the hose back when he's done with it.
Anyone who studies WWII knows the program was absolutely crucial to the Allies' success, particularly prior to Pearl when the US had not become actively engaged in the fighting.
We drifted a bit far from OSC, but context is important.
Also, I am amused by anyone who appears to disparage the US remaining out of the fighting in WWII prior to Pearl, but feeling that the UK was "got brought into" a war in Southwest Asia by the USA. If the UK should have stayed out of SWA, then the USA was certainly right in not becoming prematurely involved in the fight against Hitler. Or is that too consistent ?
Lastly, when one starts off disparaging another nation -- "god, what arrogance" was the quote -- don't be surprised when you get attacked. Civilized behavior and a civil tongue are met with like behaviors. As are uncivilized behaviors. I've taught my 8 year old son that if he wants to be treated with respect, he has to start by being respectful. Or, in his language, "Don't call anyone else a jerk if you can't handle being called a jerk yourself."
I really appreciated the last two posts.
I think both are right, and we should just move on.
The two snobs are just wasting our time, even if it is amusing to needle them (like the one woman claiming she has no interest in American goods and services...I'll bet she watches American TV religiously, sneering all the while).
Thanks for the good sense, again, in the last two posts.
I beg your pardon I do not watch American TV programmes, they are on the whole childish or simplistic.
As for my education and class it is none of your business nor is it relevant.
The whole world views a large number (not all Americans) as bombastic braggarts. By the way I do have American family in high offices in the USA.
Is it arrogance to go into a country and force your beliefs onto that country whether they want it or not? That America is the best so therefore everyone else should be like America.
Is it arrogant that peopale want to live in their own country with their own ways and not be dictated to by America.
America is still a young country and most of these problems are tantrums like a naughty child who cannot have its own way.
Respect other peoples countries by all means but your respect is shown and earned not relying on brute force and the forceable altering of another countries way of life.
We paid back Lease Lend and were still paying it back in the 1970's that we paid off the whole debt we borrowed in the 1930's.
Surely isn't America supposed to be the total egalitarian state where the myth states "Any man can become President" and I also believe that the statement "All men are created equal" is very much an Americanism and you cannot get any more egalitarian as that, can you. Yet when non-Americans make certain comments "egalitarian" seems
to be used as an insult.
Interesting also to note that people who have an opposite view are classed as having merely "A BIT of an education" just because someone has a different point of view does not mean that their education is inferior to yours, merely that they have a different point of view. To disparage the educational background of someone who you do not know is rather arrogant and dare I say it typically American.
Oh, "Giselle," you are such a laugh riot!
You must be just trolling---or are you really that unaware of yourself and your own statements?
Honestly, YOU calling anyone else a "bombastic braggart" (nice alliteration) is very amusing. Re-read your post with that phrase in mind, and then consider:
Pot. Kettle. Black.
As for Lend-Lease, please read a bit more about it before making...ah...inaccurate statements. Not that it matters. I am glad that my country bailed yours out, while we were in the midst of a Depression. I doubt, given people like yourself, that the UK would reciprocate if we were facing danger (certainly not to the extent that American did).
And I don't believe, given British history, that you really want to start discussing the ethics of one country forcibly entering and interfering with another nation, do you?
As I say, go do your thing. Me, I think you are an American trying to play troll on this website.
But you did create an amusing stereotype.
Despite all the trolling above, Giselle is party right: the UK has ALMOST paid back the Lend-Lease debts (yeah, I know: she said it was paid off in the 1970s, which is untrue). But the UK expects to pay it back very shortly.
Quotes from the UK government (from Wikipedia):
"Large quantities of goods were in Britain or in transit when Washington suddenly and unexpectedly terminated Lend-Lease on 2 September 1945. These were sold to Britain for about 10 cents on the dollar with payment to be stretched out for 50 years at 2% interest. [3] Debate in the Commons on 28 February 2002 shows that Britain expected to complete its repayment of its monetary debt to the USA on 31 December 2006, over 61 years from the conclusion of World War II:
"Bob Spink: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) what outstanding liabilities there are to the United Kingdom of lend-lease loan facilities arranged during the Second World War; [38441]…"
"Ruth Kelly: The information is as follows..." "Under the Agreement, the loans would be repaid in 50 annual instalments commencing in 1950. However the Agreement allowed deferral of annual payments of both principal and interest if necessary because of prevailing international exchange rate conditions and the level of the United Kingdom's foreign currency and gold reserves. The United Kingdom has deferred payments on six occasions. Repayment of the war loans to the United States Government should therefore be completed on 31 December 2006, subject to the United Kingdom not choosing to exercise its option to defer payment.
As at 31 March 2001, principal of $346,287,953 (£243,573,154 at the exchange rate on that day) was outstanding on the loans provided by the United States Government in 1945. The Government intend to meet its obligations under the 1945 Agreement by repaying the United States Government in full the amounts lend [sic] in 1945."
Similarly, Hansard records from a debate that took place in the House of Lords on 8 July 2002:
"Lord Campbell of Croy: My Lords, is this payment part of the lend-lease scheme under which the United States supplied munitions, vehicles and many other requirements including food and other provisions that were needed badly by us in the last part of the war?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I referred to lend-lease in the context of the generosity of the United States throughout that period. However, the debt that we are talking about now is separate; it was negotiated in December 1945.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, will the noble Lord remind me as to exactly how much the loan was, and how much we have repaid since then in principal and interest?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, the loan originally was £1,075 million, of which £244 million is outstanding. The basis of the loan is that interest is paid at 2 per cent. Therefore, we are currently receiving a greater return on our dollar assets than we are paying in interest to pay off the loan. It is a very advantageous loan for us."
On 3 May 2006, the British Treasury Minister, Ivan Lewis in a commons reply said "Repayment of the war loans to the US Government is expected to be completed on December 31 2006," The final payment will be £45 million (as reported by the BBC [3])."
So Giselle is not being accurate. I'll take the word of British government officials over Giselle any day. But the point is that the debt is almost paid.
And despite the snark above, I am glad that we helped the British. They were loyal allies, and many Britons still are.
"Eric Blair"
Awww...how sweet!! Giselle even volunteered to be Exhibit A for my comments.
Thanks!
Yes Eric Blair - I did say 1970 but the USA gave us 50 years in which to pay it back from 1950 which was the year 2000 for completion.
The final payment is actually according to Wikipedia on the 30 December 2006.
Interesting to note that while we have had to pay this back since 1950 the money that America gave to both Japan and Germany after the War had ended was given free of charge with no repayments. How about that for treating an allie. Enemies get it for nothing Allies have to pay it back with interest.
Apart from that in today's Natiional Press the following article appears:-
" Second, Britain owns a good deal of America: we are easily the single largest overseas investor in the United States, accounting for a fifth of all its foreign holdings"
Please NOTE the word OWNS.
Theoretically we own 10 States,(20% of 50) so can be pick and choose which ones we want? Maybe the ones in New England, New York maybe some Americans could suggest some other ones we could have but we don't want any of them in the middle.
Oh, here we go again. It’s more sad that amusing.
I believe that “Giselle” is really an American troll, probably from our pals at the Daily Kos...since any real Briton would read carefully and understand what they have read. They would do both of these things before posting.
She shows a shocking lack of knowledge of history---and since Britons are oh so much better educated than those awful Americans she claims to despise…well, there you go. As I say, probably a troll. Or perhaps one of those rich snobbish trustafarians that the noveau-riche classes seem to generate.
First: Giselle WROTE that Lend-Lease was paid off in the 70s. Here is the quote:
"We paid back Lease Lend and were still paying it back in the 1970's that we paid off the whole debt we borrowed in the 1930's.."
So she was factually incorrect at a basic level, yet shrugs that off. And Lend-Lease started in the 1930s? It started in 1941, as this uneducated and boorish American easily looked up.
All this also makes most people start to question the accuracy of her statements. It is more about “hate daddy” than facts, once again.
Second: if “Giselle” had bothered to read any of the articles involved, she would have learned that (to put it gently) neither Germany nor Japan were part of Lend-Lease. It is a bad idea to force enemies to pay reparations. You might consider how the foolishness of the Treaty of Versailles (those smart Europeans, again) created the atmosphere in Germany that allowed the rise of Hitler. Before you go blaming Wilson, he was on record objecting to the war reparations.
Oh sure, you can find “revisionist” historians that cast aspersions on WWII actions. But they are sour people who do not believe that anyone does anything for noble motives, ever. Nobody I would care to have a drink with. But perhaps “Giselle” would appreciate reading some of those authors, since they appear to agree with her world view. "Amerika, the Great Satan" nonsense.
As far as “giving” money to the Germans and the Japanese after World War II---that attack is both uninformed and inaccurate (and rude, as well). Frankly, America did NOT give much money to the Japanese until Korea, for reasons that are both obvious and not selfless. But Germany? Heck, the Marshall Plan poured billions of dollars into rebuilding Europe. None of that money was intended to be repaid. And guess what else? The UK received three times the amount of “rebuilding” funds via the Marshall Plan than Germany did.
And nobody asked for a single pence in return for it.
I understand that “Giselle” doesn’t like Americans. Fine with me. But she should at least do some small amount of background reading, because this “ignorant” and “bombastic braggart” of an American is having to explain British history to…a Briton.
Which is why, again, I suspect that “Giselle” is just some troll.
Then "Giselle" starts carrying on about the UK "owning" parts of America, despite her earlier attacks on American arrogance in other countries.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
I would add that the UK pretty much once owned all of America. And whoops! Look what happened.
Once again, I suggest that "Giselle" down this particular road, because she truly hasn't thought much about researching the topic.
Oh well.
The thing to focus on, as has been mentioned before, is that relatively few Britons act as "Giselle" does. So it isn't fair to judge the whole UK by those standards.
And based on the polite and kind Britons I have known, I again maintain that "Giselle" is some American teenager who reads Daily Kos and has a BUCK FUSH bumper sticker on his Toyota.
Just been reading these comments and I wonder why at times the poster is "anonymous" and at other times "Eric Blair " (aka George Orwell ) it seems to me that rather than "Giselle" being the troll it it "Anon " aka "Eric Blair " being a "multiple troll", stylistically and in content they are indentical and if in fact they are two different people then it shows an extreme lack of individual thought.
Pot.Kettle. Black to use his irritating habit.
Nowhere have I seen any mention of "Amerika the Great Satan" EXCEPT in "Anon's" own post the very fact that Anon and/ or EB does not seem able to consider even the slightest criticism of the USA, only goes to prove Giselle's point about the perceived "arrogance" and being a "bombastic braggart" in SOME Americans
Not so much a case of "America my country right or wrong" but rahter a case of "America my country ALWAYS RIGHT" .
I am afraid that on a scale from 1 to 10 in trolling "anon/EB " scores a measly 3 at best .
As a matter of interest what is with the American obsession with teeth ?
Presumably these Americans can see no problem with dealing with and supporting various Fascist dictators around the world in particular the Middle East and South America providing they have nice teeth .
Anon states the the USA helped Britain whilst in the middle of a Depression this would be I assume be the Great Depression of the 1920's /1930's yet also states that Lend Lease which I imagine to be this "help" only happened in 1941 in fact most economists state that the Depression ended in 1941 when unemployment had eventually been reduced to 10% as an alleged alumnus of the LSE surely anon/EB should know this
Yet he/she is critical of Giselle not knowing British history while appearing to be ignorant of American history of the period
Pot.Kettle.Black
Of course Japan and Germany were not part of Lend/Lease and its is remarkably silly to mention this though as a trolling attempt I can see why anon/EB would do so howeber the fact remains that due to the Lend Lease repayments the British economy was placed in an inferior postion to the economies of both Japan and West Germany in the post war world
And here I was, impressed by "Voltaire" as a name in this comments section!
You certainly have every right to your opinion. What some folks---including me, though I cannot speak for other posters---is hypocrisy. When someone attacks a country for a *history* of bad behavior, while not admitting a similar history of their own nation, it is hypocrisy.
"Giselle" was quite insulting about Joseph Kennedy being pro-Fascist, while ignoring Edward the VIII.
"Giselle" claimed that Lend-Lease took place a decade before it did, and also claimed it had been completely paid off, when it had not been.
"Giselle" excoriated the US for helping former enemies, but not helping the UK, when the Marshall Plan gave three times the assistance the UK than was received by Germany. And the Marshall plan...was...not...supposed...to...be...repaid.
And so on. And look: none of this really matters. "Giselle" was being provocative and argumentative. Some folks replied in kind.
Again, "Giselle" or "Voltaire" can say or believe anything they like. But they should be (a) informed and (b) try to be polite. I myself haven't attacked "Giselle," even when she was being both rude and incorrect. I went on to point out that most folks from the UK aren't rude and difficult.
Can Americans be difficult? Of course. Are there stereotypes of Americans? You bet---similar to the business posted above stating that Britishers don't brush their teeth, or Frenchwomen don't shave under their arms. It sounds to me like responding to stereotype with stereotype.
Not productive, I think.
And, just for the record, when I post, I use "Eric Blair."
EB yet again either deliberatley or accidentally misses the point YES the Marshall Plan money was never meant to be repaid whether this was for altruistc or political reasons is irrelevant, however one would think that if the USA was being so altruistic then surely to "write off" the Lend Lease payments would have been part of this "enlightened policy " but instead GB was still saddled with this debt
Can EB not see that to treat Great Britian in this way i.e making them debtors for over 50 years yet still call them "our great allies" is in fact the very hypocrisy that he says he does not like?
With regards to the "politeness" or otherwise in these posts all I can see is that "Giselle" and indeed "Mercurior" have questioned American foreign policy and have never resorted to personal insults but "EB" and "Anon" (if they are not in fact the same person ) have been guilty of using insulting comments about teeth (Which EB now tries to passoff as an attempt at humour if this is the case it fails the true test of humour as it is not in fact funny )
I note that EB is again unable to justify the USA's support of various fascist dictatorships in South America the policy appearing to have been that better a fascist than a democratically elected socialist e.g. Chile and the pathetic invasion of the democratic Grenada(part of the British Commonwealth by the way ) when they DARED to elect a Socialist Government.
Ah..the point here was dealing with hypocritical statements made by a poster to this blog.
I stuck to the subject. I don't care to engage you on fascist South American dictatorships, for example, since you brought it up and I did not.
I could say that you are the one who is not responsive, since I demonstrated three separate areas where the Rude British Folk were making inaccurate statements, based on THEIR posted comments...and you don't admit or respond to that.
Instead, you try to change the subject to things you feel I have done incorrectly.
That is your right. But it is trollish "bait and switch" behavior.
Oh, and for the record, making jokes about English dental habits is not new. Saturday Night Live has done skits about it, and the Austin Powers series did it in every movie. You may not find it funny, but many people do. And, for the record, I know plenty of UKers who do have good teeth.
Anyway, your post is just more anti-American trolling. Have a nice day.
EB in my personal opinion there are many good things that have come from America and indeed many American popel haev admirable qualities however it appears that listening to constructive criticism of US foreign policy is not one of your personal strong points, an all too common American attitude I'm afraid .
Since the end of WW2 American foreign policy has both directly and indirectly favoured right wing fascist dictatorships over "left leaning" socialist democracies.Why can you not see how badly this reflects on the USA as a whole and it's people?
It appears that in your eagerness to portray the USA as a Utopia you are quite happy to ignore some of it's less favourable actions policies and "philosophies"
The fact the "jokes" about dental hygene and the perceived lack thereof in the people of the UK has a "long history" (well long in American terms I guess) does not mean that it is actually funny,original or indeed accurate .
To quote Sam Goldwyn "Why can we not have any new cliches?"
Dear Voltaire:
You wrote:
"To quote Sam Goldwyn "Why can we not have any new cliches?"
It's actually "Let's have some new cliches." You made Goldwyn sound much more highbrow than he would have liked!
Here is that phrase you don't like: Pot. Kettle. Black.
You really don't want to get into British foreign policy, do you?
But I think that is the thing: you are so concerned that America is powerful (and thus dangerous), that you feel that there needs to be a balance. Thus, you will criticize America and NOT criticize anyone else---even when they are doing exactly the same thing that upsets you when Americans do it. Then, when someone calls you on it, you claim that Americans can't take criticism.
Right.
I don't care, honestly. But since you brought up Goldwyn, I would remind you of this quote from the late mogul: "I read part of it all the way through." He was quipping about screenplays, but it can apply to other forms of argument.
Big fan. First time commenter, long time listener.
Excellent interview. The only thing I felt was really missing was you and Glenn didn't comment much on Scott's commentary. It was very interesting though. First podcast I took the time to comment on.
Paul
First of all may I say
Mea Culpa Mea Culpa Mea Maxima Culpa fro unintentionally "paraphrasing " the possibly apochryphal quotation by the esteemed Mr Goldwyn.
Now to attempt to get this back on track I would like to say that as the "Global Policeman" the USA is the best (if not the only ) candidate for the job, HOWEVER it still is a cause for concern for me that in the recent past i.e the last 30 to 40 years American foreign policy has had a tendency to support right wing dictatorships rather than democracies.
I think that this should be a concern for any "Thinking Person".
I also see a tendency in "American thought" that appears to consist of "IF you are not 100% in favour of everything that the USA does then you are against the USA"
For example I personally was and and still am in favour of the actions in Iraq, as I believe that any and all countries that have fascist dictators in charge deserve the opportunity to have the freedom that democracy can bring ,however merely because I have some doubts about the the wisdom of SOME American policies ,SOME Americans seem to think I am totally opposed to them, some sort of enemy in fact.
There appears to be a "philosophy" or "mindset" of seeing everything in "Black & White " with no shades of opinion being allowed or even considered ,this "hubris" can only ever lead to tragedy in the long run.
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