Tuesday, June 20, 2006

Why Dads Matter.

Update: The commenters in this post as well as previous ones seem to enjoy conversing with our prolific commenter on this blog, Greg Kuperberg. Greg now has his own blog where you can comment directly to him at The Quantum Group blog.

42 Comments:

Blogger Greg Kuperberg said...

This opinion piece buys into a specific mischaracterization of chlid development studies that reaches far and wide among a variety of conservative factions. The column says that failed childhoods are largely caused by "fatherlessness", but what the studies actually show is that single parents have trouble raising children. They aren't the same thing, even though it is true that the single most likely single parent is the mother.

It might have been understandable to equate "no father" with "single parent" 50 years ago. Back then, few married women with children worked, the divorce rate was lower, and it was unthinkable to trust gays with children. These days it is an increasingly obstinate, politicized conflation. Everyone understands that most single-parent households have a serious, detrimental labor shortage. There isn't enough time in the day to work, clean the house, and keep track of children.

That does not mean that children with lesbian parents do badly, or for that matter children raised by a mother and a grandparent, or an aunt and an uncle, or children raised in various other pairs of parental guardians. Nor does it prove that life is better if the single parent is a father than if it is a mother.

I agree, though, that all parents matter. All parents, except for the most severely disappointing few, should be appreciated for their hard work in raising children.

10:58 AM, June 20, 2006  
Blogger John Doe said...

Greg, do you know of any objective study results to back up what you are saying? I am unaware of any and I'd be surprised if it were possible to say one way or the other that the problem is down to fatherlessness or to single motherhood. Most of the time, these amount to the same thing and as long as there is a patriphobic bias against fathers in society, we will probably not know.

11:34 AM, June 20, 2006  
Blogger Greg Kuperberg said...

Greg, do you know of any objective study results to back up what you are saying?

I know, objectively, that conservatives point to single-parent households and say, see, fatherlessness is bad. In 2006, that is a blatant mischaracterization, because it is used for questions that have nothing to do with one parent versus two parents. For example, it can be invoked in custody disputes where both the mother and the father are single parents.

I know that there are studies that conclude that children do just fine with two lesbian parents. I'm not in a position to promise that they are "objective", or concede that they are not "objective". All I will say is that these households exist and that they certainly could be studied, if you care about the distinction between "fatherlessness" and single parenthood. There is no need to just grandly conclude that they amount to the same thing.

For that matter, it's not as is father-only households don't exist. There are millions of them, plenty enough to study, even if they are less common than mother-only households. A guy on my street is in that situation. I would not be surprised if some of the single-parent studies actually cover both cases, so that the broken homes with a father and no mother count towards the indictment against "fatherlessness".

11:53 AM, June 20, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Greg,

There have been studies showing that boys tend to be better off living with stepfathers rather than single mothers and "some support was found for the hypothesis that children have a higher level of well-being in father-custody families than mother-custody families (Amato and Bruce, 1991). Of course, each individual case is different and the ability of the parent to parent is ultimately the thing that matters--despite the gender.

12:13 PM, June 20, 2006  
Blogger John Doe said...

Greg, given that the vast majority of single parents are mothers, then it seems entirely reasonable to me to approximate single parenthood as single motherhood, also known as fatherlessness.

You may be right that single parenthood is the problem, via labor shortage, but personally, I doubt that single fatherhood is as likely to be as problematic as single motherhood simply because it is so much harder to become a single father that those who manage it will be inclined to take it much more seriously, perhaps reflected in the article Helen cites. Given a society which has reified divorce in terms of its granting of "freedom" to unhappy wives/mothers to a level that now some 70% of divorces are instigated by women, and that the vast majority of the time the children go with mom (who is thus also protected financially in her choice), it seems to me that we have set up for a situation where the most probable outcome is that the children end up with self-indulgent, "me-first" people with attendant consequences...

(I know that many people reading this will think "conservative", but it is simply a line of reasoning, open to study & debate. To label it "conservative" causes the ideological conflation with a number of ideas which have no place in the argument.)

12:39 PM, June 20, 2006  
Blogger Greg Kuperberg said...

There have been studies showing that boys tend to be better off living with stepfathers rather than single mothers...

If there is a stepfather, that suggests a two-parent household that consists of a mother and a stepfather. That's yet another comparison of one parent to two parents. It doesn't compare fatherless and fatherful families with the same number of parents.

"some support was found for the hypothesis that children have a higher level of well-being in father-custody families than mother-custody families (Amato and Bruce, 1991)."

There is a study by Paul Amato and Bruce Keith entitled "Parental Divorce and Adult Well-Being: A Meta-Analysis" and published in 1991, wihch can be downloaded from JSTOR. I assume that that is the citation that you have in mind, even though it is Amato and Keith rather than Amato and Bruce. Most of this paper is about single-parent households, not father-custody versus mother-custody. It is possible that it has your quote, but I'm not finding it because PDF from JSTOR does not have word indexing. In any case it is a meta-analysis with the usual disclaimer that they can't fully vouch for the studies that they bundle together. It's hard to say what the data was in the other studies, or what light they really shed on these side conclusions.

Certainly the meta-analysis shows a clear association between a two-parent upbringing and adult well-being. That part could be beyond dispute.

12:51 PM, June 20, 2006  
Blogger Greg Kuperberg said...

John Doe: Greg, given that the vast majority of single parents are mothers, then it seems entirely reasonable to me to approximate single parenthood as single motherhood, also known as fatherlessness.

Yes, it's entirely reasonable unless and until you employ the evidence for a goal that defeats the approximation. It is entirely reasonable to approximate "racing stripes" with "sports car", unless you buy a minivan with racing stripes.

Was single parenthood all that McCormick and Sacks had in mind in their argument that dad's matter? They could at least claim that they did, until they wrote the phrase "and lesbian families". Aha! Armed with a wealth of data that one parent is not enough, they don't want two women to raise children either. Their main concern is apparently custody after divorce, but they don't mind a side casualty of their position.

I have to wonder what they would say about two gay men raising children. After all, if having a father is so important, wouldn't it be even better to have two of them?

1:05 PM, June 20, 2006  
Blogger John Doe said...

Greg, your attack on McCormick and Sacks is unfair and misguided. Their only reference to "lesbian" families was in this wider context:

"Through her interviews with single mother and lesbian families Drexler concludes there’s no need to fear fatherlessness, because fatherless boys play sports and scrape their knees like other boys, and don’t turn out to be effeminate or gay. On that she’s probably correct."

Now M&S argue in the article as a whole that a strong correlation of certain problems with fatherlessness implies a direct causal relationship between the two. This is entirely reasonable, on statistical average. They also imply, and this is where you appear to have a problem, that not having a father around is, on average, detrimental to a child, even if there is no shortage of child-rearing labor. Compared to their opposition, this is downright restrained of them. It does not make them anti-lesbian nor homophobic. In fact, to any reasonable society, it ought to be screamingly obvious. Everyone is born of a man and a woman. Everyone lives in a society populated by men and women. Men and women are not the same. In order for a child to develop as a fully functioning individual they require the example of all kinds of human behavior along with appropriate moral guidance. Growing up in a home with fully half of the human race unrepresented is, on average, going to cause problems.

This is hugely general, of course. I have no doubt that there are lesbian & gay parents out there who are better than many heterosexual parents. This does not in any way affect the position that fatherlessness is a potential liability.

1:33 PM, June 20, 2006  
Blogger Greg Kuperberg said...

Greg, your attack on McCormick and Sacks is unfair and misguided.

I'm not doing any more than disputing their interpretations. I won't say that they are unpatriotic or incompetent or frauds or anything like that. All I am saying is that their argument is more politics than science. Okay, I'm also saying that it's not my politics.

I agree with you that the lesbian part is tangential to their particular column; I already said that. Evidently it isn't tangential to your own thinking, since you describe mistrust of gay and lesbian parents as "screamingly obvious" -- everyone is born of a man and a woman and all that. The truth is that a lot of things that are "screamingly obvious" are prior assumptions that are not borne out by science. It's "screamingly obvious" that cough medicine relieves coughs; but according to a study mentioned in the Wall Street Journal, it doesn't happen to be true.

Anyway, I agree that that side of it is more you than McCormick and Sacks. But on reflection, not much of what McCormick and Sacks argue has to do with one parent versus two. Their main point is about child custody after divorce, which is more about alternating between two households than having a mother and a father in the same household. Are there studies that show that children do better if they commute between two single parents? Maybe it is a good idea, but these studies that compare one-parent homes to two-parent homes don't address the question. Lumping it all together as "fatherlessness" is indeed a mischaracterization.

Compared to their opposition, this is downright restrained of them.

When it comes time to make real decisions and see the real truth, it doesn't matter how badly the other side has been argued; you still have to check whether your own reasoning holds water.

2:01 PM, June 20, 2006  
Blogger Peregrine John said...

Huh. If more politicians believed that, it'd be a better world.

2:13 PM, June 20, 2006  
Blogger John Doe said...

Woah, Greg, next thing you'll be calling me a homophobe, and your arguments are getting more and more bizarre (you do seem to enjoy wild extrapolation a lot more than you appreciate a more short range variety in M&S). In your universe, it seems that one had better defend, er, untraditional families before you defend traditional ones whereas both need some level of defense against any form of unthinking prejudice. That prejudice can come from either side and it would be a dire mistake to build legislation on top of it. And yet, this is exactly what has happened when it comes to the legal disenfranchisement of fathers. The assignment of full custody to the primary caregiver is a direct result of a line of reasoning in which it is assumed that the child will end up without any adequate parental figure if it isn't. That is, the fundamental premise that has resulted in fatherlessness of an unprecedented scale, is an untested assumption.

Which do you think will turn out to be more like cough medicine? That fatherhood is bad or that fatherlessness is bad?

2:28 PM, June 20, 2006  
Blogger dadvocate said...

During my divorce, I wanted, and eventually won, shared physical custody. The process included two custody evaluations by different evaluators and different organizations.

The one thing they had in common was a strong belief in the value of a father in a child's life. They cited facts and figures similar to those in Mr. Sacks article. All recommended joint physical custody.

After some tumultuous times, my ex and I are getting along well. We've been able to work out disciplinary agreements, etc. The children pretty much get to see each parent as much as they wish. They excel in almost every area of their lives, academically, socially, athletically, spiritually, etc. I believe this is due to having the love, affection and guidance of both parents.

I know other parents with joint physical custody with similar results. I choose to believe my own experiences and observations along with the expert opinions of social workers and psychologists that work in the field than the highly biased "objective" opinion of Greg.

3:05 PM, June 20, 2006  
Blogger Greg Kuperberg said...

And yet, this is exactly what has happened when it comes to the legal disenfranchisement of fathers.

I completely sympathize with divorced fathers who sincerely want a bigger stake in raising their children. But arguments about "fatherlessness" are not the way to do it. "Fatherlessness" is a one-size-fits-all slogan that is equally convenient for opponents of gay marriage, opponents of divorce, and various other sorts of traditionalists.

Tradition, for that matter, is a two-edged sword for divorced fathers. A really traditionalist judge might well blame the father for the divorce from the beginning, and moreover argue that however traditional both mothers and fathers are, mothers are more traditional and more essential. He might also look past all of the women in the case and conclude that the mother's second husband never ran away from a family and is therefore the more trustworthy man.

3:12 PM, June 20, 2006  
Blogger Greg Kuperberg said...

Which do you think will turn out to be more like cough medicine? That fatherhood is bad or that fatherlessness is bad?

I'm a father too and I have no argument against fatherhood. I think it's great; I don't think it's bad at all.

But just because I enjoy being a father, that does not give me any intention of interfering with two women or two men who want to raise children. Or with other parents who adopt children. I see the statistics that one parent is often not enough. I haven't seen the problem with two parents who might not be the biological mother and father.

I'm also happy for dadvocate that he worked out joint custody with his ex-wife. I have nothing against that solution in response to divorce.

3:31 PM, June 20, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

two parents are better than one, sure. we need a study to tell us this?

the problem is men themselves don't put much stock in fatherhood. THAT is why fathers are marginalized. the vast majority (i'd say over 75%) of people i know have highly unsatisfactory relationships with their fathers. these are men who not only weren't involved when their children were young, but who continue to be uninvolved, who continue to be unable to make an emotional investment in their children.

i'm so hopeful that this is getting better with the latest generation of fathers. that fathers will be equally involved in their children's day to day activities, able to have serious and regular conversations with their children, and will be a source of strength and guidance to their children.

but the blame for the fact that this hasn't been the case lays at the feet of the fathers themselves. it's not some "left-wing conspiracy". if you think that, you're just as big a wingnut as those you denounce.

3:52 PM, June 20, 2006  
Blogger John Doe said...

Greg, I agree with your assessment of "fatherlessness" being "not the way to do it" insofar as it is not the only way to do it. It is all about power, which makes it all about politics. There is a war going on. Like all wars, it is not the right way to do things, but faced with it, you have to choose a side or stay out of it. One side (guess which) has the advantage. It is such a strong advantage that the disadvantaged side can look like the bad guy just for pointing out its disadvantage. Gloria Steinmen herself once said that mothers were no better nurturers than fathers. But when it comes down to battles for equal custody rights, the loudest voices are those of the likes of N.O.W. One-size-fits-all are the meat and potatoes of public arguments of this ilk. Generalizations abound, and individuals suffer. Collateral damage of the war.

I'm glad that you think joint custody is good if it can be worked out between the parents. But that isn't a problem as the courts will generally stay out of mutual agreements. Where it is a major problem is when the parents cannot agree. Dad starts out with his feet tied together and Mom has a head start that puts her at the finish line before Dad even makes his first hop.

Anonymous (3.52) also has a point, but it is also based in an assumption which may not be correct. Dad may have been distant from his kids because the world he grew up in expected him to work his ass off to keep them fed, sheltered and educated. In fact, to blame the dads for their situation may be akin to blaming the depressed housewife of the 50s for her situation. I'd even go further and suggest that cultural constraints on men have been more restrictive than those on women for some considerable time, maybe, effectively, always. To finish it off, I invite anonymous to try being a committed father who has been kicked out of his own house and disenfranchised from his own kids by his wife with the full and enthusiastic support of an often implicitly, sometimes explicitly biased legal system. Dadvocate got lucky. I envy him. Oh, and I don't think you need any conspiracy theories either, just a few bad laws and "well meaning people" working on bad assumptions.

4:19 PM, June 20, 2006  
Blogger dadvocate said...

Anon. 3:52,
You are too quick to single out fathers for blame. For decades (centuries really) boys have been taught that their primary role as a father/husband is to bring home the bacon. In more agrarian societies, this was usually done in the vicinity of the home but not now.

Additionally, men frequently lose the ability to have a close relationship with their children at the whim of a woman and the judicial system. For many men it may be hard to make a deep emotional investment in something that so easily can be taken away.

I'm a strong believer that joint physical custody works for the best in many circumstances but not necessarily all. A funny thing though, when I search the web concerning joint physical custody all the sites I find supporting it are male based. All the ones against are female based. If these women think joint physical custody is so bad why, for the sake of their kids, don't they give full custody to the father?

4:30 PM, June 20, 2006  
Blogger dadvocate said...

Greg,

Thanks for the thought. But I must say, in my Southern colloquialism, you're on of the most "contrary" people I've ever come across.

John Doe - there was some luck involved, good judge, etc. But I fought like hell for 5-6 years too.

4:37 PM, June 20, 2006  
Anonymous Jim said...

"the problem is men themselves don't put much stock in fatherhood. THAT is why fathers are marginalized. the vast majority (i'd say over 75%) of people i know have highly unsatisfactory relationships with their fathers. "

Backwards logic. Fathers are marginalized and that is why they put so little stock in fatherhood. Except that that is false too, because it is bigoted generalization to say that men don't put much stock in fatherhood. And where on earth do you get your second generalization?

5:01 PM, June 20, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Hi everyone,

For all those who enjoy conversing with Mr. Kuperberg--he now has a blog where you can post directly to him at:

http://quantumgroup.blogspot.com/

5:18 PM, June 20, 2006  
Anonymous Crankyguy said...

Ah, yes. Dr. Kuperberg has moved from mathematician to foreign policy expert and now sociologist and family practice psychology.

It was irritating until I remembered the television show "Cheers." Every bar-room has its "Cliff Clavin" type.

Dr. Kuperberg is currently vying for that "Clavin Crown" on this (and several other) blogs.

I raise my metaphorical beer glass to his health.

Dr. Kuperberg has a right to his own opinion, of course. But they are not facts---they are opinions. And every else's opinions are just as valuble.

Don't let him get your goat, friends.

Just raise a metaphorical beer glass to him.

2:26 AM, June 21, 2006  
Blogger jw said...

Longitudanal ongoing studies of child maltreatment such as the one running in Canada since the late 1980's show that there is more child abuse in single mother homes than in single father (2.7 to 1). Mind you, that comparison has some problems and NOT the ones that most people would think of.

The thing is, single mothers have a subset which is radically different from the majority, this subset skews the single mother data; single fathers do not have that subset. (Very young, single mothers on welfare are high risk for child abuse. There are almost no very young single fathers on welfare to compare to this group as very young single fathers are mostly working fulltime.)

When compared directly --leaving out the young single mothers on welfare-- there are few differences between the sexes as single parents. Here are the ones I know of:

- single mothers have a higher incidence of teenage pregnancy in their daughters
- single mothers have a higher incidence of arrest for serious crimes in their sons
- single fathers have a higher incidence of substance abuse in their children
- single fathers have a higher incidence of accidental injury in their children primarily due to a much higher participation in higher risk sports such as equestrian sports, skydiving & scuba diving

6:11 AM, June 21, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

it wouldn't matter how "marginalized" i felt. i wouldn't give up on my kids. i'm not sure a court order could do it, but anything less than that certainly wouldn't it. the women in your life and society make you feel useless? boo hoo, nice excuse, you fucking babies.

and i'm talking about people raised between 1950 and 1990. this was not an agrarian period. you can say the dads were just too doggone tired to go to little Johnny's games, but that also means he couldn't have a god-damned heart-to-heart when necessary? and the fact is, these same men, who are now retired, continue to be relatively uninvolved in the lives of their grandchildren. oh, and another thing, the vast majority of these people also had working moms. you know, she was probably pretty fucking tired at the end of the day, too.

12:42 PM, June 21, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Anonymous 12:42:

Seriously, get some manners before you take your passive aggressive tendencies out here on my blog. There are better ways to make your point than by calling men "fucking babies." I doubt that you would ever call women that.

1:19 PM, June 21, 2006  
Blogger jw said...

The Canadian ethicist Margaret Somerville ( http://www.law.mcgill.ca/faculty/bio_display-en.htm?printBio=36 ), from McGill University, has come out against gay parenting. In her mind the need for children to have a close relationship with mother & father outweighs the rights of gays & lesbians.

There may well be something in her argument.

That said, there is no evidence that a gay parent in and of themselves is a worse parent. A pair of gays should do reasonably well as parents. There will be statistical differences in the outcome of their parenting, that is a given. As I said in my earlier post to this thread there is a sex based difference in outcome for single parents. That sex based difference will show in gay/lesbian parents.

That is, in comparison to a straight couple, a pair of gay men will have greater odds of risk-taking problems in the children they raise. A pair of lesbians will have, in comparison to a straight couple, increased odds of attachment problems in children they raise.

The above is the reason for Professor Somerville's objections. These objections are worth listening to in terms of saying "We know about the increased odds and are doing X to fix the problem." This is the same thing which responsible single parents do.

4:32 AM, June 22, 2006  
Anonymous craichead said...

I think there are two basic problems I have with the arguments in favor of same sex parents. I don't out and out reject the situation since it is of course better for a child to be raised by two committed gay partners who love them than by a foster home or institution.

That said there's two things going on:

First, why not try to establish some sort of right of biological involved fathers to be members of their own families BEFORE we begin to set up rights for gay people to VOLUNTARILY establish family with another adult.

Second, this is much more about LESBIAN parents than about GAY MALE parents. There's one thing that nearly all gay male parents will have in common: they'll be quite wealthy!

Today it's extremely difficult for a man to adopt a child and internationally, the Ukraine is the only country that allows a man to adopt a child.

Women will always have a much easier time adopting or getting inseminated.

As long as feminists and mothers' advocates continue to paint men as either dangerous, inferior parents this immense roadblock will always exist for both straight and gay men.

It's a feminist paradox, really. They repeatedly paint men as morally inferior and then clamor to get family rights for gays.

10:41 AM, June 22, 2006  
Anonymous Cousin Dave said...

My problem with Greg's argument is that it seems to be reducing parenting down to the physical labor of feeding, clothing, and cleaning. Presumably, as long as sufficient labor capability exists in the house, the problem is solved. By that mesure, children raised entirely by robots should be as well-adjusted as any others. I'm finding that a bit far-fetched.

I would argue that single motherhood and single fatherhood are not compaable under the present circumstances, for a variety of reasons. Of course, the largest one is that in our current culture, there is no social stigma associated with not having a father or not knowing who one's father is. Compare that to the case for adopted children, who do not know who either of their biological parents are. And there is no stigma associated with a household which has no father in it.

I am a big believer that, in order to be well-adjusted in regards to how they relate to the oppsite sex, children need to have role models of both sexes. Now, there are different ways of accomplishing that goal, but that's beside the point I want to make. I don't have the stats in front of me night now, but a significant number of single mothers were themselves raised in single-mother households. Being that the welfare state has been in place for about 60 years now, this can extend back through three or four generations. A boy may find himself being raised in a family that is otherwise single-sex. This is very unlikely to happen in a father-only household. I would guess that the number of single-parent fathers who were themselves raised in a motherless household is minscule, probably not enough to study.

Futher, the child of a single father still has plenty of exposure to female role models. They have female relatives. Some fathers hire caretakers, who are nearly all female. School teachers are mostly female. Compare this with the opposite situation. It's quite possible that a child in a single-mother household will never meet an adult male realtive, due to the multi-generational chain of single mothering. In public schools, the child is unlikely to have a male teacher. Welfare and child-protective employees are mostly women too. It's entirely possible that the child's only "male role models" will be in the form of street gangs.

So no, I don't think that there is any such thing as gender-neutral "single parenting". And I don't think that studying father-only households will tell you anything about single-mother households. The two are simply not comparable.

12:30 PM, June 22, 2006  
Anonymous Jim said...

"and i'm talking about people raised between 1950 and 1990. this was not an agrarian period."

That spans far too wide a range to be of any value as a sample. That means that your comment
"oh, and another thing, the vast majority of these people also had working moms. you know, she was probably pretty fucking tired at the end of the day,"
is meaningless, because it is untrue for the 60's and 50's. The first thrust of the women's movement in that era was women moving into the workforce.

"the women in your life and society make you feel useless? boo hoo, nice excuse, you fucking babies."

To use your terminology, you fucking hypocrite. Besides, that's a cheap little strawman. The comments are discussing legal impediments to fathers parenting their children, not the worthless attitude of some breeder - rigged custody laws, interference with visitation without any penalty, extortionate and unaccountable "child support" - things that would make a coward like you who is too timid even to use her name just curl up and cry. If you want to impugn someone else's courage and determination, grow a set of balls yourself first.

1:12 PM, June 23, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

helen:

uh, yeah, i most certainly would call women "fucking babies" and worse if i thought it fit. some examples would be: "fucking mental case", "fucking out-of-your-league poser", or "fucking desperately in need of male approval".

and passive aggressive? i may be aggressive, but i'm certainly not passive aggressive.

12:06 PM, June 24, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

and jim:

i don't know what you mean by the time range is too wide to be valuable. certainly, there were more stay at home moms in the 50's and 60's than in the next two decades. that's why i used the phrase "vast majority"--the term implying to those of reason that i do not suggest ALL.

and jim, i can read. i see damn well what the comments are discussing. i think they're off target, hence my post. are you saying if i can't go with the party line here, i should keep my little trap shut? nice try.

as for your insipid comments on balls-- the generic male answer and insult for every occassion--i may be too lazy to login, but figurative "balls" are not something i'm short of. if it makes you happy though, in the future i will at least sign my name at the end.

andrea

7:51 PM, June 26, 2006  
Anonymous Trey said...

Cousin Dave wrote: "It's quite possible that a child in a single-mother household will never meet an adult male realtive, due to the multi-generational chain of single mothering. In public schools, the child is unlikely to have a male teacher. Welfare and child-protective employees are mostly women too. It's entirely possible that the child's only "male role models" will be in the form of street gangs."

Ain't that the truth?!?! I am a man in a female dominated profession, a clinical psychologist who works with adults AND children. I often find that I am either the only adult male in the child's life, or the only one that does not try to hurt the child. That sucks for them. I had Sunday School teachers, coaches, teachers (I went to an all boys school after grade school) my father, uncles, dads from the neighborhood, etc. My sons daughters have me, their uncles, and their pastor. I do not think that we are up to the job by ourselves.

Trey

12:13 PM, June 27, 2006  
Blogger look said...

情趣用品,
性感睡衣,
免費視訊聊天,
視訊交友網,
美姬圖影,
情境坊歡愉用品,
花美姬情趣用品,
成人圖片,
臺灣情色網,
嘟嘟情人色網,
色情網站,
情境坊歡愉用品,
徵信,
徵信公司,
徵信,
外遇,
徵信,
徵信,
抓姦,
徵信,
外遇,
徵信,
徵信社,
徵信社,
抓姦,
徵信社,
徵信社,
徵信社,
,
,
整型,
視訊聊天,
視訊交友,
AV女優,
色情,
A片,
A片,
情趣用品,
情色,
A片,
色情影片,
情趣用品,
A片,
AV女優,
視訊聊天室,
聊天,
情趣用品,
情惑用品性易購,
情侶歡愉用品,
A片,
情趣,
情惑用品性易購,
辣妹視訊,
自慰套,
情侶歡愉用品,
寄情築園小遊戲,
aio交友愛情館,
美女視訊,
色情A片,
情趣用品,
徵信社,
情趣用品,
A片,
美女視訊,
色情A片,
AV女優,
A片,
辣妹視訊,
自慰套,
情侶歡愉用品,

12:18 AM, March 15, 2009  
Blogger mmbox said...

2008真情寫真aa片免費看捷克論壇微風論壇大眾論壇plus論壇080視訊聊天室情色視訊交友90739美女交友-成人聊天室色情小說做愛成人圖片區豆豆色情聊天室080豆豆聊天室 小辣妹影音交友網台中情人聊天室桃園星願聊天室高雄網友聊天室新中台灣聊天室中部網友聊天室嘉義之光聊天室基隆海岸聊天室中壢網友聊天室南台灣聊天室南部聊坊聊天室台南不夜城聊天室南部網友聊天室屏東網友聊天室台南網友聊天室屏東聊坊聊天室雲林網友聊天室大學生BBS聊天室網路學院聊天室屏東夜語聊天室孤男寡女聊天室一網情深聊天室心靈饗宴聊天室流星花園聊天室食色男女色情聊天室真愛宣言交友聊天室情人皇朝聊天室上班族成人聊天室上班族f1影音視訊聊天室哈雷視訊聊天室080影音視訊聊天室38不夜城聊天室援交聊天室080080哈啦聊天室台北已婚聊天室已婚廣場聊天室 夢幻家族聊天室摸摸扣扣同學會聊天室520情色聊天室QQ成人交友聊天室免費視訊網愛聊天室愛情公寓免費聊天室拉子性愛聊天室柔情網友聊天室哈啦影音交友網哈啦影音視訊聊天室櫻井莉亞三點全露寫真集123上班族聊天室尋夢園上班族聊天室成人聊天室上班族080上班族聊天室6k聊天室粉紅豆豆聊天室080豆豆聊天網新豆豆聊天室080聊天室免費音樂試聽流行音樂試聽免費aa片試看免費a長片線上看色情貼影片免費a長片

7:29 AM, March 22, 2009  
Blogger mmbox said...

本土成人貼圖站大台灣情色網台灣男人幫論壇A圖網嘟嘟成人電影網火辣春夢貼圖網情色貼圖俱樂部台灣成人電影絲襪美腿樂園18美女貼圖區柔情聊天網707網愛聊天室聯盟台北69色情貼圖區38女孩情色網台灣映像館波波成人情色網站美女成人貼圖區無碼貼圖力量色妹妹性愛貼圖區日本女優貼圖網日本美少女貼圖區亞洲風暴情色貼圖網哈啦聊天室美少女自拍貼圖辣妹成人情色網台北女孩情色網辣手貼圖情色網AV無碼女優影片男女情色寫真貼圖a片天使俱樂部萍水相逢遊戲區平水相逢遊戲區免費視訊交友90739免費視訊聊天辣妹視訊 - 影音聊天網080視訊聊天室日本美女肛交美女工廠貼圖區百分百貼圖區亞洲成人電影情色網台灣本土自拍貼圖網麻辣貼圖情色網好色客成人圖片貼圖區711成人AV貼圖區台灣美女貼圖區筱萱成人論壇咪咪情色貼圖區momokoko同學會視訊kk272視訊情色文學小站成人情色貼圖區嘟嘟成人網嘟嘟情人色網 - 貼圖區免費色情a片下載台灣情色論壇成人影片分享免費視訊聊天區微風 成人 論壇kiss文學區taiwankiss文學區

7:29 AM, March 22, 2009  
Blogger nini said...

85cc免費影城 愛情公寓正妹牆川藏第一美女 成人影片 情色交友網 美女視訊 美女視訊 視訊情人高雄網 JP成人影城 383成人影城 aa片免費a片下載 a片線上看aa片免費看 ※a片線上試看※sex520免費影片※ aa片免費看 BT成人論壇 金瓶影片交流區 自拍美女聊天室 aa片免費a片下載 SEX520免費影片 免費a片 日本美女寫真集 sex520aa免費影片 sex520aa免費影片 BT成人網 Hotsee免費視訊交友 百分百貼影片區 SEX520免費影片 免費視訊聊天室 情人視訊高雄網 星光情色討論版 正妹牆 383成人影城 線上85cc免費影城 85cc免費影城 85cc免費影城 85cc免費影城 ※免費視訊聊天室※ ※免費視訊聊天室※ 免費視訊聊天室 85cc免費影片 85cc免費影片 080苗栗人聊天室 080苗栗人聊天室 080中部人聊天室 080中部人聊天室 免費a片下載 免費a片 AA片免費看 aa片免費看 aa片免費看 aa片免費看 aa片免費看 日本av女優影片 av女優 av女優無碼影城 av女優 av女優 百分百成人圖片 百分百成人圖片 視訊情人高雄網 電話交友 影音電話交友 絕色影城 絕色影城 夜未眠成人影城 夜未眠成人影城 色咪咪影片網 色咪咪影片網 色咪咪影片網 色咪咪影片網 色咪咪影片網 免費色咪咪貼影片 免費色咪咪貼影片 色情遊戲 色情遊戲 色情遊戲 色情遊戲 影音視訊交友網 視訊交友網 080視訊聊天室 ※免費視訊聊天室※ ※免費視訊聊天室※ 視訊聊天室 成人影音視訊聊天室 ut影音視訊聊天室 ※免費視訊聊天室※ 視訊ukiss聊天室視訊ukiss聊天室 視訊交友90739 視訊交友90739 情人視訊網 168視訊美女 168視訊美女 168視訊美女 視訊美女館 視訊美女館 免費視訊美女網 小高聊天室 小高聊天室 aio交友聊天室 aio交友聊天室 交友聊天室 交友聊天室 線上a片 線上a片 線上a片 線上a片 線上a片 免費線上a片 免費線上a片 嘟嘟成人網站 成人漫畫 情色文學 嘟嘟成人網 成人貼圖區 情色文學成人小說 微風成人區 情色貼圖區 免費視訊聊天 免費成人圖片區 愛情公寓 愛情公寓聊天室 寄情築園小遊戲 免費aa片線上看 aa片免費看 情色SXE聊天室 SEX情色遊戲 色情A片 免費下載 av女優 俱樂部 情色論壇 辣妹視訊 情色貼圖網 免費色情 聊天室 情人視訊聊天室 免費a片成人影城 免費a片-aa片免費看 0204貼圖區 SEX情色 交友聊天-線上免費 女優天堂 成人交友網 成人情色貼圖區 18禁 -女優王國 080視訊美女聊天室 080視訊聊天室 視訊交友90739 免費a片 aio 視訊交友網 成人影城-免費a片※免費視訊聊天※85cc免費影片日本線上免費a片 免費色咪咪影片免費色咪咪影片aaa片免費看影片aaa片免費看成人影城免費色咪咪影片

2:01 PM, April 05, 2009  
Blogger 123456 said...

广州托盘复合托盘食品托盘天津木托盘胶合板托盘蜂窝纸托盘塑木托盘熏蒸木托盘木制托盘广东塑料托盘钢托盘钢制托盘栈板塑料栈板木栈板垫仓板托盘包装求购托盘天津托盘温州托盘山东托盘北京托盘上海木托盘塑胶托盘卡板纸卡板塑料卡板手推车推车机场手推车好孩子手推车液压手推车超市手推车医用手推车康贝手推车不锈钢手推车平板车电动平板车老虎车静音手推车平板手推车小推车模具架置物架堆垛架巧固架整理架物料整理架挂板架整理柜零件柜零件整理柜文件整理柜仓储笼仓库笼料箱塑料箱钢制料箱货箱整理箱塑料整理箱周转箱塑料周转箱防静电周转箱求购周转箱物流箱物料盒零件盒塑料零件盒卡板箱周转筐塑料周转筐周转箩登高车物流台车台车密集架档案密集架文件柜办公文件柜北京文件柜广州文件柜上海文件柜南京文件柜深圳文件柜钢制文件柜铁皮文件柜档案柜文件柜厂底图柜档案柜鞋柜储物柜更衣柜防火防磁柜防磁柜防火防磁文件柜图书架资料柜工具柜

5:09 AM, April 13, 2009  
Blogger 天天看正妹 said...

免費視訊聊天 ut聊天室辣妹視訊UT影音視訊聊天室 吉澤明步QQ美女視訊秀 85cc免費影片aa影片下載城sex免費成人影片aaa片免費看短片美女視訊 sex383線上娛樂場av969 免費短片日本免費視訊aa影片下載城視訊網愛聊天室影音視訊交友 咆哮小老鼠分享論壇sex520免費影片aa免費影片下載城aio辣妺視訊 aio辣妹交友愛情館 jp成人影片aio交友愛情館馬子免費影片免費線上a片18成人85cc影城0204movie免費色咪咪視訊網pc交友s383視訊玩美女人34c高雄視訊聊天jp成人免費視訊辣妹 kk777視訊俱樂部xxxpandalive173影音視訊聊天室 sex520-卡通影片成人免費視訊 完美女人13060 免費視訊聊天sexy girl video movie辣妹妹影音視訊聊天室UT視訊美女交友視訊情色網百事無碼a片dvd線上aa片免費看18禁成人網ut聊天室kk俱樂部視訊激情網愛聊天 情人小魔女自拍卡通aa片免費看夜未眠成人影城aio性愛dvd辣妹影片直播拓網視訊交友視訊聊天室ggoo168論壇視訊辣妹love104影音live秀 美女show-live視訊情色yam交友辣妹妹影音視訊聊天室s383情色大網咖視訊aaa俱樂部台灣情色網無碼avdvdsexy diamond sex888入口Show-live視訊聊天室

4:48 AM, April 14, 2009  
Blogger 天天看正妹 said...

免費 a 片aaaaa片俱樂部影片aaaaa片俱樂部dodo豆豆聊天室sex520網路自拍美女聊天室天堂免費線上avdvd援交av080影片aa影片下載城aaa片免費看短片成人圖片區18成人avooogo2av免費影片sexdiy影城免費線上成人影片bonbonsex0951影片下載日本av女優sex888免費看影片免費視訊78論壇辣妹有約辣妹no31314視訊dudu sex免費影片avdvd情色影片免費色咪咪影片網av080免費試看日本美女寫真集辣妹脫衣麻將視訊聊天室性福免費影片分享日本美女寫真集,kk視訊aio交友愛情館免費成人美女視訊bt論壇色情自拍免費a片卡通tw 18 net卡通18美少女圖色情漫畫777美女小護士免費 aa 片試看百分百成人情色圖片a片免費觀賞sexy girls get fuckedsexy girl video movie情色文學成人小說sex888免費看eyny 伊莉論壇sexdiy影城自拍情色0204movie免費影片aio免費aa片試看s383情色大網咖sexy girl video movie草莓牛奶AV論壇台灣論壇18禁遊戲區環球辣妹聊天室 90691拓網aio交友愛情館拓網學生族視訊777美女 sex888影片分享區hi5 tv免費影片aa的滿18歲卡通影片sex383線上娛樂場sexdiy影城免費a片線上觀看真人美女辣妹鋼管脫衣秀比基尼辣妹一夜情視訊aio交友愛情館

4:48 AM, April 14, 2009  
Blogger 天天看正妹 said...

小魔女免費影城免費看 aa的滿18歲影片sex383線上娛樂場kk777視訊俱樂部aa的滿18歲影片85cc免費影片a片免費看A片-sex520視訊聊天室v6 0plus論壇sex520免費影片avdvd-情色網qq美美色網ut13077視訊聊天A片-無碼援交東京熱一本道aaa免費看影片免費視訊聊天室微風成人免費視訊聊天 ut聊天室av1688影音視訊天堂免費 a 片85cc免費影城亞洲禁果影城微風成人av論壇sex520免費影片JP成人網免費成人視訊aaa影片下載城免費a片 ut交友成人視訊85cc成人影城免費A片aa的滿18歲影片小魔女免費影片85cc免費影片aaa片免費看短片aa影片下載城aaaaa片俱樂部影片aaaaa片俱樂部aa的滿18歲影片小魔女免費影片台灣論壇免費影片後宮0204movie免費影片免費卡通影片線上觀看線上免費a片觀看85cc免費影片免費A片aa影片下載城ut聊天室辣妹視訊UT影音視訊聊天室 日本免費視訊aaaa 片俱樂部aaaa片免費看影片免費視訊78論壇情色偷拍免費A片免費aaaaa片俱樂部影片aa影片下載城色漫畫帝國av俱樂部aaaa彩虹頻道免費影片 杜蕾斯成人免費卡通影片線上觀看85cc免費影片線上觀賞免費線上歐美A片觀看免費a片卡通aaa的滿18歲卡通影片sex520免費影片免費 a 片

4:48 AM, April 14, 2009  
Blogger 徵信 said...

外遇外遇外遇外遇外遇外遇外遇外遇外遇 外遇
外遇 外遇外遇 外遇 外遇
外遇 外遇 外遇
外遇


外遇 外遇
外遇
外遇 外遇外遇
外遇

外遇 外遇外遇 外遇 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 ,
外遇 外遇 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇外遇 外遇外遇 外遇 外遇

外遇 外遇

外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇劈腿劈腿劈腿劈腿劈腿劈腿劈腿劈腿喜帖囍帖卡片外遇外遇 外遇 外遇外遇 外遇
外遇 外遇 外遇 外遇剖析 外遇調查 外遇案例 外遇諮詢 偷情 第三者外遇話題 外遇發洩 感情挽回 徵信社 外遇心態 外遇 通姦 通姦罪 外遇徵信社徵信社外遇 外遇 抓姦徵信協會徵信公司 包二奶 徵信社 徵信 徵信社 徵信社 徵信社 徵信社 徵信 徵信 婚姻 婚前徵信 前科 個人資料 外遇 第三者 徵信社 偵探社 抓姦 偵探社 偵探社婚 偵探社 偵探社偵探家事服務家事服務家電維修家事服務家事服務家事服務家事服務家事服務持久持久持久持久持久持久持久離婚網頁設計徵信社徵信社徵信徵信社外遇離婚協議書劈腿持久持久持久持久持久劈腿剖析徵信徵信社外遇外遇外遇外遇徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信徵信社徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信公會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信公會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿

3:54 AM, April 20, 2009  
Blogger 1314 said...

視訊做愛視訊美女無碼A片情色影劇kyo成人動漫tt1069同志交友網ut同志交友網微風成人論壇6k聊天室日本 avdvd 介紹免費觀賞UT視訊美女交友..........................

10:51 PM, May 19, 2009  
Blogger 1122 said...

視訊美女 live0204173liveshow 視訊美女173liveshow 視訊美女0401 影音視訊美女聊天室視訊ggo0401 影音視訊美女聊天室gogogirl 視訊美女gogogirl 視訊美女av080 toav080 to視訊美女視訊美女正妹視訊gogo正妹視訊gogo正妹牆視訊交友高雄網正妹牆辣妺視訊辣妺視訊辣美眉173show影片辣美眉173show影片sex520免費影片sex520免費影片85cc免費影城85cc免費影城

11:18 PM, June 07, 2009  

Post a Comment

<< Home