Sunday, April 09, 2006

Sodomy of Boys

55 Comments:

Anonymous GM Roper said...

I keep saying nothing surprises me, and I keep being wrong.

8:21 AM, April 09, 2006  
Blogger Anna said...

I like that they refer to all the teens involved as "gentlemen". Even if it were just horseplay, no gentleman would stick a pencil up someone's, well, you know.

11:47 AM, April 09, 2006  
Blogger Mark Daniels said...

The whole thing is appalling and the outrage which you and many of your readers have expressed has to crystallize into a national movement to make this wholly unacceptable! Thanks for bringing it all to our attention, Helen.

Mark

12:02 PM, April 09, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Anna,

Yes, I love where they refer to these teen hoodlums as gentlemen. When society wonders why boys shoot up schools, I often wonder how many times the mistreatment of boys has to happen until some connection is made between bullying, mistreatment and abuse and subsequent violence. I remember a study a group of students did that found that being called "gay" was the number one type of bullying that bothered boys and "promiscuous" was the term that bothered girls most.

Mark,

Thanks again for pointing this article out.

12:14 PM, April 09, 2006  
Blogger vesna said...

We are not protecting our boys. How absolutely tragic and it is no wonder that some boys turn to the exteme to protect themselves. And rape is of course even more difficult for boys/men to come forward about than for girls and women. It is even more of a shame, a humiliation. I wonder how many other boys have been sexually assaulted and have been told it was just "horseplay"? And I wonder how many boys don't come forward because they know they won't be taken seriously, or will be seen as weak?

1:09 PM, April 09, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Helen,

What trend continues? The article you linked said the prosecution was moving to try the juveniles as adults. What's your beef?

1:23 PM, April 09, 2006  
Anonymous Vicki said...

Gentlemen? Young men? Men, gentle and/or young, do not act like this. And when people in violent or otherwise abusive situations are told often enough that it's "normal," or "horseplay," they think there's something wrong with them for feeling violated.

Would anyone accept "horseplay" to describe a father's behavior in molesting his daughter?

5:04 PM, April 09, 2006  
Blogger Mark Daniels said...

Anonymous asks, "What trend continues?," pointing out that prosecutors were going to press charges.

Helen can answer for herself. But let me say how I feel I see the trend continuing in this case: A lawyer felt safe in offering an absurd defense. It's the equivalent of, "Boys will be boys" as a defense in rape cases. Once upon a time, such a defense was acceptable.

The case in Arizona to which Helen earlier pointed saw justice thwarted through a similar defense. What I suggest on my blog is that the lawyer here in the Cincinnati area may have been emboldened to offer the "horseplay" defense by the precedent in Arizona and by previous turning away from such crimes.

Mark

5:40 PM, April 09, 2006  
Blogger vesna said...

Anonymous-

I see trends as well. The trend for the violence against men and boys not being taken seriously. The "horseplay" or "boys will be boys" defense is about as absurd as the "men just can't control themselves" or "men are men" defense that was used during earlier generations when women were raped by men.

And just look at the recent People Magazine story about the wife who murdered her clergy husband. Although little is known about why this woman murdered, People magazine couldn't help but present the case in a way that would make most people feel sorry for this murderess. I don't think People Magazine would have dared to try and create sympathy for a wife killer. This sexism is extremely dangerous for our men and boys.

5:49 PM, April 09, 2006  
Blogger dadvocate said...

This case has been big on the talk radio in Cincinnati. I heard one caller who said the victim was a whimp. If it was his kid he would have him lift weights for a month and then go back and settle it like a man. What a nutcase.

The defense attorneys are claiming the victim was laughing about it when he got off the bus.

It's truly pitiful how some people react to this stuff. Vesna makes some excellent comments.

8:49 PM, April 09, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mark,

Perhaps Helen will identify the trend.

What we see from the article is an ayytempt by prosecutors to have the juveniles tried as adults. Defense counsel has an obligation to oppose that motion. In doing so, he is quite justified in presenting a position that is is horseplay. that is what he is supposed to do.

Everyone is doing their job as officers of the court. The prosecutors are moving for adult status. The judge has scheduled a hearing. The defense is opposing the move. That's how our system works.

In the Arizona case, the beef was that the prosecutors were derelict in their duty. I see no dereliction anywhere in this account

8:56 PM, April 09, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Vesna,

How can you say this case continues a trend of not taking violence against men and boys seriously? The prosecution is trying to try the accused as adults. What more do you want? How can they exhibit more seriousness?

The Arizona case cited earlier may exhibit a lack of seriousness, but this case does not.

It is not the obligation of the defense to get together with the prosecution and agree the accused should be tried as adults. It is the obligation of the defense to defend the client and oppose this motion.

The court will consider both sides and make a decision. Who thinks that decision should be supplanted by the opinion of psychologists who read press accounts?

9:01 PM, April 09, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

dadvocate,

What is pitiful about a kid getting in shape, learning how to fight, and defeating bullies? That is not the only recourse, but it sure is an effective one. The alternative is to suffer the harm and then ask others to rectify it. Not every kid is capable, but some are. Bullies tend to back off when confronted; they don't want a real fight.

Do we know if the victim was laughing about the incident when he got off the bus? I don't know what he was doing. Do you?

9:33 PM, April 09, 2006  
Blogger jw said...

I don't know what to say ...

So I'll give my own experience as one example of the problem.

I have rarely been taken seriously by anyone in the legal or therpautic communities. I nearly died in a sexual assault. The attitude of the pros is a combination of "So what?" and "You didn't die so stop whinning."

Therein lies the problem: The pros do not take male survivors seriously. The governments do not want male survivors to be treated fairly, (true for Canada at any rate). The people do not care.

It is no wonder that many males have troubles in life: The people don't care if a male lives or dies. Warren Farrell calls it disposibility of males. Cathy Young disagrees and says it is only a poor view of helping males. Whichever, the problem exists and all solutions are fought by powerful people.

4:22 AM, April 10, 2006  
Blogger Mercurior said...

having a kid get in shape to beat someone else to a pulp. when this kid could then be arrested and then put in prison where he will be raped. bullies sometimes do back away, but sometimes they dont. and it escalates. if this kid is tougher, and since he has discovered violence will solve all his problems.. couldnt he become a bully himself..

4:40 AM, April 10, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mercurior,

That's good advice for a weenie, but not for a man.

9:45 AM, April 10, 2006  
Blogger dadvocate said...

anonymous - How about because it'll never happen except in the movies? The biggest bully in my high school was the center on the basketball team who was a senior when I was a sophomore. At 6'5" or more and not skinny, he was quite formable. A couple of football players could stand up to him but that was about it. He eventually beat a guy to death in a bar fight and went to prison for manslaughter.

Although I DID work out with weights the biggest I got the entire year was 6'3" and 170 lbs. No where near being able to realistically face that guy. I don't care how many times you watch Karate Kid, it doesn't make it true. How about trying to be a civilized man instead of a Neanderthal.

I just know what the defendants' lawyers claimed in court as far as the laughing goes.

10:00 AM, April 10, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

anonymous 9:45:

Which is why more and more men are ending up in jail and in court. Too many men such as yourself think that you can just fight back physically without also addressing the intricate and complex psychological and legal questions that are involved in bullying and mistreatment in schools. Taking matters into your own hands only goes so far.

10:11 AM, April 10, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

dadvocate,

You may not be able to beat everyone. But why insist the perfect is the enemy of the good. that's how a victim thinks.

2:28 PM, April 10, 2006  
Blogger dadvocate said...

Anonymus - I have no idea what you're talking about.

2:37 PM, April 10, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dadvocate,

I believe you don't understand.

Is it your contention that we should not fight the bully because there are some bullies who we cannot beat? That's what I get from the high school story you told us.

Do you hold that if we cannot defend ourselves against everyone, we should defend ourselves against no one? Perhaps you can expand on your ideas?

Being civilized rather than a neanderthal sounds great. Too bad it doesn't work for the individual under attack.

We all rely on others to delever violence against those who would do us harm. But, when those strong men are not around, what do you recommend? Is violence and neanderthal behavior OK as long as someone else is delivering it on our behalf?

3:25 PM, April 10, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Helen,

You're a smart gal. You know I said nothing about ignoring the complex psychological and legal questions. If you have something to say about them, then why not just make a contribution?

Is it your position that men should not defend themselves because they may end up in court? I get that idea from what you wrote, so I'm asking for a fuller explanation.

Do you oppose the idea of men boys getting fit and in shape and capable of defending themselves?

3:34 PM, April 10, 2006  
Blogger dadvocate said...

You don't set your kids up for a fight they can't win. At the moment of attack you do whatever you must. Legally, you are required to flee if possible. After the event is over, take legal action. Usually this would be more effective than a re-match. If you want to repeatedly get your butt kicked, feel free.

More precisely, I worry about the affect on the kid who would never be big enough, etc. to whip the bully and whose father thinks he should be. The kid is stuck between getting beat up and his Dad telling him he's a wimp if he doesn't fight. I'm not against violence, per se. I'm against sending a kid into no-win situation. Parents are supposed to protect their kids, not cause them unneeded pain and suffering.

Plus, using the fighting route, you run the risk of an eye for a eye, a tooth for a tooth escalation involving friends, family, etc. and pretty soon everyone is blind and toothless.

3:43 PM, April 10, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

anonymous 3:34:

I have no problem with men/boys or women /girls being in shape to defend themselves. It's a good idea. But you are calling men in your previous comment "weenies" if they do not use violence as a first line of defense. It often does not work in schools. All of the kids know this. I get the impression from you that just fighting back hard is the answer. Of course, if you are fighting for your life, this may be true--but in a school fight that is not a life or death situation, you have to weigh the consequences.

Generally, it goes like this, another boy threatens attacks you at school/ on the bus etc.You fight back--both of you are suspended, expelled or worse. You come back to school, same problem ensues. Now, bully knows he can get you in trouble no matter what as dumb hypocritical rules at the school side with the bully.

My problem with schools is that they rarely take the time to find out what happened in a fight/altercation. They want no trouble so they have black/white rules--whoever fights is punished--often regardless of a kid acting in self-defense. I have seen kids involved in fights for self defense where they end up in juvenile court with a charge for fighting. The rules in the schools need to change and the schools need to take more responsibility for teasing out what actually happened in individual cases so that kids who are fighting back are not punished severely for doing so--that often happens now.

What good is it for a kid who defends himself fighting to end up in juvenile court, detention or expelled?

3:53 PM, April 10, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dadvocate,

OK. You oppose entering a no win situation.

How about when it is not a no win situation. Do you advocate running away?

3:56 PM, April 10, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

helen,

Come on. Read what I say. I said nothing about violence being the first line of defense. That's a good sound bite, but I didn't say it.

Fighting back hard is an answer. It is not the answer.

Do you suggest the kid submit because he may get in trouble with authorities? Let's look at the choices: a kid can get beat up or he can fight back. I think you advocate being a victim and accepting the beating. Is that correct?

Do you think the bully looks for strong people? Perhaps you do. However, I suggest he looks for weakness and vulnerability. He doesn't want a real fight. I disagree that fighting a bully encourages him to repeat the attack.

You ask the benefit of fighting back when authorities may disapprove. It is much less likely he will be attacked again when he demonstrates he is willing to fight back.

I'd really like to know what you think a kid should do when the bully starts punching him.

4:12 PM, April 10, 2006  
Blogger Mercurior said...

i am big, as i have said, i can bench press 600lbs, my lower body strength can push 800lbs (until i broke the machine)..used to play rugby league (like american football but tougher) but i am gentle, always have been, because i know if i lose my temper i would kill someone ::clicks fingers: like that.. i was bullied, all my school life, i did fight back a couple of times, once I got punished for making one comment, the other time i wasnt.

once i was younger, and for 3 years, this one person would make remarks about me in my hearing, they ended up slamming doors in my face, trying to trip me down the stairs, for 3 long years, then i lost it, i physically lifted them up off the ground by their jacket, and said leave me alone and they did they saw they had pushed me over the line. i was ashamed of losing control, why.. because she was a young woman.

the other time i was about 9 or 10 and i was bullied for longer, similar sort of thing, so i said told the teachers and everyone but no one did anything, so i made one comment about this person, and i got into trouble for it.

if i was in a fight with bigger opponents there is no shame in running away, violence should only be used as a last resort, not as a first resort,

4:14 PM, April 10, 2006  
Blogger Mercurior said...

of course anonymous will call me a weenie, because i dont think with my muscles, or i use my intelligence first, and violence second..

in my opinion he should run away. fighting never helps anything. all fighting does is breed more fighting. if you fight a bully, and he loses, he will resort to fighting those weaker than you. until at one point, he kills a kid. humans have a brain, they should use it.

4:18 PM, April 10, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mercurior,

There is nothing wrong with using your intelligence first.

And if you escape the bully, will he just go home? Or will he resort to fighting those slower than you? This seems a weak argument for running. And how long does one continue running? Everyday? All one's life?

4:33 PM, April 10, 2006  
Blogger dadvocate said...

I agree with DrHelen and mercurior, especially since he's stronger than me. :-)

4:36 PM, April 10, 2006  
Blogger Mercurior said...

he he he;-) dadvocate..

i have ran, and told the people in charge, the teachers and others. sometimes it did good, sometimes they did nothing.

fighting someone like a bully only turns you into people like that.

(used to be very good at rugby, was semi professional, but then i slipped on some mud walking home and broke an ankle, then i over compensated and broke the other and that ended it).

4:42 PM, April 10, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mercurior,

A bully attacks weaker people. Fighting a bully is not attacking weaker people. There is no reason to think fighting a bully who is the same size or larger will lead one to pick on the weak.

9:08 AM, April 11, 2006  
Anonymous Cab said...

Does anyone else get a sense that "anonymous" is a 105 pounder who never actually stood up to his bullies?

As a result, we get the macho posturing on this board, insulting others for being weenies or wusses...

Hint, nony, nobody here thinks you're a tough guy who should be respected on that basis. You come across as just as much a weenie on this board as you probably do in real life.

Helen, is there a nifty litte psychological name for this phenomenon? I'd suggest, "little man syndrome" =)

4:48 PM, April 11, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Cab,

Perhaps you can give us your views on defending against a bully? Should a person defend themselves? Is it pitiful to recommend that boys gain strength and learn how to fight? Do you rely on strong men to protect with you with violence?

Do you disapprove a the 105 pounder who never stood up to bullies? If so, why? Do you disparage his size, or the fact that he never stood his ground?

Helen hasn't told us what she recommends a kid do when the bully starts punching him. Dadvocate hasn't told us if he recommends fighting the bully when it is not a no-win situation. Perhaps you can tell us?

5:16 PM, April 11, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

(different anonymous)

No one rule applies to handling all bullies. Obviously, it depends a lot on whether you can count on the school to effectively deal with identified bullies (hah!), the relative sizes of the children involved, the level of annoyance/danger the bully represents, and the general psychoness of the bully involved. Bullies vary between relatively rational one who will only pick on easy targets to deranged sorts whom, once having chosen their victim(s) to harass, seemingly cannot be dissuaded by anything short of murder. Any one-size-fits-all reccomendation won't do well in most cases.

It likewise depends on the maturity of your child... a very mature child, I'd simply lay out the likely consequences of any actions he or she might undertake, help them plan tactics, and let them carry it out with eyes wide open. If they end up getting suspended, but if the bullying stops, I'll remind them that it was worth the price (being suspended/doing extra chores for being suspended). If it's a less mature child that isn't likely to make a correct decision, obviously I'll have to get a lot more involved with the situation and make the call myself.

In either case, I wouldn't be making assumptions about the situation. You know what assumptions do (and in the former case, I'd be reminding the kid of that, too.)

9:42 PM, April 11, 2006  
Blogger Mercurior said...

but how many times have we been told that a bully must be weak, somehow in need of more compassion, as they must be ill, sick, low esteem. etc.. as they cant help their family life etc etc..

fighting isnt the only option, fighting is a last resort, and as for bullies never attacking bigger people, bullies attack ANYONE, who they think is weak no matter their size, i was the biggest person in school and i got bullied for 5 years. because they saw in me a weakness, which was called being gentle and a bit of a swot (highly intelligent).. bullying is looking for weaknesses as these bullies have low self esteem and they need to feel better than anyone so they bully make themselves feel better than the victim. thats what bullying is. a bully is ANYONE, who picks on weakness in a person.

4:08 AM, April 12, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My own opinion was otherwise, that bullies see themselves as little tin gods, and recent research lends support to my schoolyard observations.

In any case, the personal travails and injustices the bully may or may not have suffered are surely fascinating in the abstract and worthy of further study by people like Dr. Helen, but ultimately irrelevant to the victim of the bully or their parents. They need only concern themselves with getting the bullying to stop, by whatever methods are deemed most likely to succeed in this instance. That might include fighting as a first option, it might not. Flexibility of response is the key.

11:28 AM, April 12, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mercurior,

1. Who if cares if a bully needs compassion? Once he attacks, the target's right to defend trumps the bully's need for compasion.

2. Even if a bully has some weakness, self defense is far different from picking on someone.

3. I agree that size and strength are not the only areas of weakness a predator may exploit.

2:59 PM, April 12, 2006  
Blogger Mercurior said...

yes, but thats what the feminised schools are saying, that bullies need compassion, and not to be punished as hard as it should be,
http://www.kidsread.net/bullies.htm

some of the site is useful but others are well heres a quote ** The bully should be taught consequences, proper social behavior, given counselling and/or medication, or whatever it takes to bring him up to acceptable social behavior.**


violence should be as a last resort, if you report it to the teachers the head, your parents, everyone, and they still fight you, with increasing violence as most bullies escalate, once they know they can get away with it. then and only then should you attempt to fight them.

the problem is some people think violence is the only solution, it isnt.

3:33 PM, April 12, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mercurior,

1. Who cares what feminized school are saying when getting punched?

2. I'd suggest violence is the first resort when getting punched. (For anyone who wants to cite that, include the qualification, "when getting punched.")

3. Prior to getting punched there are other tactics that can be used.

4. Who thinks violence is the only solution? I see people argue against that position, but see no one affirm that position. Who does?

4:17 PM, April 12, 2006  
Blogger Mercurior said...

but the problem is, the school are now more and more into feelings of the bullies, when people are taught under that type of school, it becomes part of the make up of the person involved, the bullies will carry on bullying, as they grow older they will find that people start to excuse their violence, as dont you know all bullies are cowards and have problems.. (which can be true but when they are able to do it and not be "punished" that is a bigger problem). if society doesnt tell bullies that its WRONG, with appropriate punishments for those bullies, then they are only perpetuating the bullying. there have been kids who have killed themselves due to bullying, the problem with being a bullies target is you feel worthless, and each time they fight you, you feel worse. and it isnt easy to get out of that, as your feelings increase over time, and the bully feels more powerful. thats why there are a few bullies who pick on only 1 or 2 people. teachers and other adults are supposed to protect children from being bullied, but at the moment thats not happening as well as it should, theres a pressure for teachers to see the bully as a victim himself. even more of a victim that the person he beat up.

now thats wrong, society should teach these people that bullying is wrong, and if you do it, you will be punished. to tell a kid he should bulk up and go back and beat up the bully only perpetuates the violence in society, as someone once said "turn the other cheek"

***
What is pitiful about a kid getting in shape, learning how to fight, and defeating bullies? That is not the only recourse, but it sure is an effective one. The alternative is to suffer the harm and then ask others to rectify it. Not every kid is capable, but some are. Bullies tend to back off when confronted; they don't want a real fight.

Do we know if the victim was laughing about the incident when he got off the bus? I don't know what he was doing. Do you?
9:33 PM
** and anonymous 9.45

4:33 AM, April 13, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Bullies have high self-esteem, not low. Research shows them to be narcissitic and feel entitled to special rights and privileges. Schools fuel this entitlement with self-esteem programs and hypocritical rules that treat a bully and victim as the same, rather than trying to sort through an incident. When this is reversed and bullies are punished for their behavior and victims are not punished for fighting back, perhaps the bullying will decrease.

7:52 AM, April 13, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Helen,

I'd suggest the bullying will also decrease when he is punished by his target. Authorities do not have a monopoly on punishment.

9:17 AM, April 13, 2006  
Blogger Mercurior said...

i read a study stating the opposite, but this was a few years ago so it could be wrong now. but it could depend on the bully, i know some people who like to put others down to make themselves feel good, why are they happy, when i am sad, so if i make them more miserable than me, i will feel better. one of the lads who bullied me i met a few years ago, and he loved the idea the feeling of power he had bullying others.

4:12 PM, April 13, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Cab,

I haven't heard from you. Are you an intellectual 105 pounder who can't even stand up to an anonymous poster on the internet? Way to go, weenie!

4:57 PM, April 14, 2006  
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10:39 PM, May 19, 2009  
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10:48 PM, June 07, 2009  

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