Sunday, February 19, 2006

Need a Welfare Check? Just Threaten to Riot

"If you reward cruelty with kindness, with what do you reward kindness?"
--Hillel

You would think that governments as well as people in general would understand that appeasing and rewarding negative behavior doesn't work. It's basic psychology 101--but one that not even most psychology professors understand or put to use. And apparently, this concept is foreign to many of the politically correct persuasion outside the classroom as well--for them, their feeling of moral "superiority" trumps human nature and causes liberals to turn a blind eye to justice and acts of violence.

In Bruce Bawer's new book, While Europe Slept: How Radical Islam is Destroying the West from Within,the side effects of the appeasement of Muslims by the Danish government are clear--as their government pumps more and more welfare money into the pockets of disgruntled Muslims, the rate of violence against "infidels" there increases.

Bawer points out that in Denmark, Muslims make up only 5% of the population but receive 40% of welfare outlays. Many of these immigrants are told by their leaders that Muslim law gives them the right to "cheat and lie in the countries that harbor them." They are told to view the benefits they receive as jizya--the tributes that "the infidel natives of Muslim-occupied countries are obliged to pay to Muslims in order to preserve their lives." And the welfare offices in Denmark can be the setting for violence--termed "culture clashes" by Danish journalists. "Some clients lay waste to social security offices and hit social workers--not out of frustration but because they've learned that bullying gets them what they want. The Danish government is not repressive; welfare workers tend to be sympathetic and eager to help. Many immigrants perceive this as weakness, and exploit it, 'tyrannizing' the social workers." The Danish solution? More PC behavior--get translators to translate not only between languages but between cultures. Yeah, that will work.

Having worked with social security disability clients for 15 years, I can tell you that human nature is the same all over. The more competent clients who had held jobs and had truly bad misfortunes happen to them were often kind and treated me with respect. Those who had never worked, been fed a steady diet of entitlement and justification of the "system owing them" from family members and society were the most abusive, often threatening me or treating me as an object to be used to get them what they wanted (not that it worked one way or another--I just wrote an objective report regardless of threats etc.). I learned to talk in a big booming voice that commanded authority and never swayed from speaking in an objective manner-of-fact tone. Once the potentially violent client saw that I was not intimidated by threats or strong language, they often settled down and cooperated. Too bad European countries haven't learned this lesson--appeasement of violence doesn't work.

I think the last paragraph of Bower's book summarizes the conflict of the PC Danish approach to conflict best:

"The irony was tragic: .......having instituted a welfare system meant to safeguard every last one of them from so much as a moment's financial insecurity, and having built up a culture of extraordinary freedom and tolerance that promised each of them a life of absolute dignity and perfect equality, postwar Dutch men and women had raised up their children into tall, strapping, healthy, multilingual young adults--
...and yet they'd turned a blind eye to the very peril that would destroy them."

Dutch cartoons anyone?

Update: Sorry, Right Girl, didn't mean to interrupt your brunch.

100 Comments:

Blogger Dave said...

Speaking of political correctness, can we all disabuse ourselves of the idea that Islam has any inherent worth?

Its adherents certainly have not shown it to have anything worthy about it. Unless by "worthy religion" one means a religion in which rape, murder, beheadings, and suicide bombings are its theology.

10:03 AM, February 19, 2006  
Blogger Bezuhov said...

No, not all.

10:29 AM, February 19, 2006  
Blogger rnord said...

Speaking of political correctness, let get over Islam being anything other than a political party akin to the Nazi with but a dash of 'religion' thrown in for smokescreen. They have shown by their actions what they are and the results will be the same as Neivell Chamberlain got. This is a death cult and its members are the same as the ones 1400 years ago, decapitation, torture, rape, beatings, this is what they know and have been taught, its a "Charlie Manson" type organization. There is always a tipping point with these types, when they think that they can control it will be out and out war.

10:43 AM, February 19, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Big Pharoh, an Egyptian blogger, said (I paraphrase) that Muslims have to remember that Westerners judge them based not on the words of the Prophet but on the actions of his followers, especailly on the network news.

I realize that not every follower of Mohammed believes that women without headscarves should be stoned, that those who offend Islam by making cartoons of the Prophet should be murdered, that any criticism of Islam should be met with immediate violence... but I don't see any sizeable group of 'modernist' Muslims condemning this behavior either (at least not without weasel-wording it), nor do I see any drop in donations to CAIR or other organizations that enable Muslim intolerance. Silence is approval, and Islam will continue to be the Religon of Atrocity and Hate until its adherents clean their own house.

10:48 AM, February 19, 2006  
Blogger Merv said...

The ever craven BBC reports on the event in Nigeria:

Sixteen people have been killed in northern Nigeria during protests by Muslims over the cartoons satirising the Prophet Muhammad.

Most of the deaths occurred in rioting in Maiduguri, capital of north-eastern Borno state. One person died in similar riots in north-central Katsina state.

Witnesses said most of the dead were from Maiduguri's minority Christians.

The cartoonist whose cartoons sparked off the worldwide riots told a Scottish newspaper he had "no regrets".

...

In a sane world shouldn't the people throwing a tantrum and killing people be the ones with regrets. Why is it so hard to hold these people responsible for their own acts. Muslim males are treated as if they have no impulse control. They see a cartoon they object to and it justifies murder and mayhem. A women whose hair is uncovered is letting the "sex rays" loose and he is not responsible for sexually assualting her.

11:15 AM, February 19, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't see any sizeable group of 'modernist' Muslims

Because there isn't any such sizeable group

-- david.davenport.1@netzero.com

11:22 AM, February 19, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Anonymous 12:09:

I'm not a Christian.

12:09 PM, February 19, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"If you reward cruelty with kindness, with what do you reward kindness?"

Answer: With more kindness.

The Christian response to cruelty should not be more cruelty, but kindness.

12:09 PM, February 19, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm not sure Islam should be tolerated in a modern society any more than Aztecs or cannibals would be.

12:18 PM, February 19, 2006  
Blogger DRJ said...

Anonymous @ 12:09:

Christian kindness and self-defense. These are not mutually exclusive concepts.

12:21 PM, February 19, 2006  
Blogger RightGirl said...

Heh, stuff like that is worth putting the fork down for. Thanks Doctor.

RG

1:06 PM, February 19, 2006  
Blogger Pyrthroes said...

What do Muslim males, ages 16 - 22 years, do all day? Apparently they are not in school... or if they are, "schooling" amounts to rote memorizing of the Koran in Arabic, a language which 90% of them neither read nor speak.

Productively employed? How could they be, when days go by with nothing but (how you say) "street action". My guess is they are "clan supported", directed as errand-boys by patriarchs who use and misuse their (ahem) services, as the Spirit moves Big Daddy.

Think of it! In all the vast Islamosphere, from Morocco to the Philippines, there are no artists, entrepreneurs, scientists, writers-- with the possible exception of virtual refugees, hiding out in civilized (i.e. non-Islamospheric) communities, this parasitic persuasion contributes nothing to anyone.

Perhaps a thousand years ago, a mathematician or two, a couple of quasi-liberated poets or observational (vs. theoretical) astronomers, made syncretic additions to existing culture and knowledge. But those days are past.

Beyond a certain point, no healthy community can afford to tolerate Brown Shirt battalions, armband-heavy Red Guards, or murderous "Street Arabs" (of whatever ethnicity, in any guise). Multi-culturalism is a nihilistic death-wish, with which (of course) the Disciples of Allah are fully in accord. Its cousin, "liberalism" as collectivist Statism, is merely an enabler of horrific self-destruction, always in the name of Tolerance and of Diversity except where freedom of any kind (cultural, economic, political, you name it) impinges on narcissistic elitist sensitivities.

It is no exaggeration to say that dealing with indigenous Muslim arrogance and extremism is way-past overdue. In the nature of Prophetology, Wahabist adherents are never to be trusted, nor will they ever ameliorate their extraordinarily vicious urge to simply desecrate anything of beauty, interest, worth.

The truly damning fact is, that over the years not one discrete Muslim community anywhere in the world has breathed a whisper against these raging bullies. No good to say, "They were repressed." Unless these putative "moderates" are in the extrteme minority, why not rise as one to re-assert basic standards of humanity? The answer speaks for itself.

Knowing nothing, caring less, about these chanting mobs' child-molesting Prophet, we put it to all genuine liberal, democratic constituents of good-will (emphatically not the America-haters infesting Leftwing polities domestically): At what point does mass-expulsion become an option? Born here, you say?-- we have changed our laws, designating you as a Muslim (that's right: In profile) unworthy by nature of consideration for the honor of American citizenship. Back to your country of ethnic origin, where camel dung reigns as Fatwah du Jour. Until your polities demonstrably match ours, by (say) not burning Churches, murdering non-Muslims, addressing certain, ah, imbalances in civil rights and liberties-- out you go. You are cheats and liars, whose Word means nothing. Show us; we alone will decide what evidence, if any, to respect.

Maybe the glaciers will return to cover everything before then. But in the meantime, don't think this tepid prescription is extreme. Extremism is what Muslims do-- bless Adolf Hitler, torture and murder women and children first (others might defend themselves), assert God-given rights to take everyone down with you.

Sooner or later, a Bismarck, a Cromwell, an Andrew Jackson, is going to stand up and say, "Enough." When that happens, political and other environments will re-crystallize as if by magic. Guess who will then lead the charge-- today's multi-culti types, professing this was their intention all along. So push their craven little creeps face-forward, don't bother to count the bodies afterward. There comes a time when life-and-death reality intrudes.

1:18 PM, February 19, 2006  
Anonymous cubanbob said...

An immigrant right of the bat on welfare is an immigrant that isn't needed. This is the first lesson all western nations need to learn.
As for welfare in general, it should be time limited to not more than 2 or 3 years total per working lifetime. the exceptions being for the physically handicapped (example a quadriplegic) or the servery mentally retarded ( example those with IQ's of 70 or less)or first time mothers who have been abandoned by the father, unless there is a great economic crises like a depression. It is a form of slavery to compel the productive to maintain the parasites.

Denmark and Europe need to lay down the law. This our house, our rules, no discussion. one or 2 serious head breaking rampages by the cops to put down the rioters coupled by the termination of welfare benefits of the immigrant parasites and summary expulsion of immigrant crimminals will bring near instant relief to the problem. The carrot only works in conjunction with the stick.

1:22 PM, February 19, 2006  
Blogger Greg Kuperberg said...

So let's actually see which has more violence, Tennessee or Denmark. The common currency for that is the homicide rate, both because homicide is the most violent crime, and because (unlike many other types of crime) the reporting standards are fairly uniform across developed countries.

The population of Denmark is 5.4 million. The population of Tennessee is 5.7 million. In 2001, Denmark had 52 homicides, according to this report. In 2001, Tennessee had 425 homicides, according to this table.

Today's posting from a Tennessean slams the Danes for turning the other cheek in response to violence. Most Danes would reject Tennessee's approach to welfare and justice as "an eye for an eye". I am not Christian either, but given that Tennessee has 8 times as many homicides per person as Denmark, I agree with Jesus in this case.

1:23 PM, February 19, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

I'm really not sure what your point is, Greg. It seems you're suggesting that people who live in a place with a high murder rate have no business complaining about oppression and violence elsewhere. I guess that means that back in the 1960s New Yorkers had no standing to complain about the murder of civil rights workers in the South. I imagine George Wallance and Lester Maddox probably said things like that, but I'm surprised to hear that sort of thing from you.

1:55 PM, February 19, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The final paragraph is about the Netherlands (i.e. the Dutch people), whereas the rest of the article alludes to being about Denmark (i.e. the Danes). Whilst the term for both countries' people begins with a 'D', they are different countries. Was that intentional?

2:04 PM, February 19, 2006  
Blogger geekWithA.45 said...

There is a class of people who I awkwardly label as "enlightened", or perhaps "practicioners of enlightened self interest". These people do not resort to force except under certain fairly constrained circumstances, and certainly never as a opening move. They believe in reason, negotiation, fair play, and are accustomed to the idea that rights come with responsibilities.

They conduct their lives accordingly, automatically according a certain minimum of respect to all they encounter.

One of the hardest things for such a person to understand is that there are those who do not subscribe to a compatible ethos, and are somewhat at a loss as to what to do when encountering such. They find it difficult or impossible to realize that the minimum respect tendered to a stranger is conditional, and that it should only stand until such a person proves themselves unworthy.

The phrase "some people won't respect you until you figuratively 'slap' them around a bit" is shockingly foriegn to the "enlighted", and conjures up all sorts of brutish, negative images with which they do not wish to be associated.

It is, nonetheless, true.

People espousing more or less enlightened ethos need to learn very quickly about how to recognize when they are in the the presence of people who do not, and how to conduct themselves, without losing their grasp on their civility.

I'd say that Doc Helen gives us a perfect example of this: speak and act commandingly, refuse to be intimidated, and behave with objectivity and fairness.

2:15 PM, February 19, 2006  
Blogger Assistant Village Idiot said...

Hey Greg, the last time you brought the Tennessee vs. Somewhere Else homicide statistics up, I pointed you to the other regions of the US and Canada, specifically New England and the Maritimes. Guess that data doesn't fit with your notions and so got forgotten.

Further, the lack of uniform reporting criteria does not alter the fact that the overall violent crime rates -- assault, rape, criminal threatening -- don't make your argument look anywhere near as good. If you cherry-pick your data, the people who have been caught once will begin to disbelieve everything you write.

To the OP: The more you give people, the less grateful they are. This is not peculiar to Muslims, or immigrants, or the disabled, but to human kind in general. What we expect, we come to believe we deserve.

2:17 PM, February 19, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The population of Denmark is 5.4 million. The population of Tennessee is 5.7 million. In 2001, Denmark had 52 homicides, according to this report. In 2001, Tennessee had 425 homicides, according to this table.

Uh, Greggy daling, bring up murderers in Tennessee isn't very helpful to your lovely pee cee cause.

Why? Most Tennessee murderers are non-white. Furthermore, if one examined the background of some of these murderers, one would find that they were converted to Nation of Islam beliefs while in prison.

-- david.davenport.1@netzero.com

2:36 PM, February 19, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't understand this concept of demanding that moderates apologize for the actions of extremists. It is not the moderates who are at fault here.

2:40 PM, February 19, 2006  
Blogger EddieP said...

Would Greg rather be a Christian in Tennessee or Nigeria today?

2:42 PM, February 19, 2006  
Blogger Greg Kuperberg said...

First, it's a free country and it's your business to complain about whatever you want to complain about. Jesus said, "judge not, lest ye be judged", but that's just advice, and as I said, I am not a Christian. On the other hand, it may be good advice.

If you had merely said that violence in Denmark is bad, however much or little of it there may be, then I would have silently agreed. But what you actually said was, "appeasement of violence doesn't work". Homicide statistics in Denmark don't bear you out on that one. Danish appeasement may have its drawbacks, but it seems to work a great deal better than what Tennessee is doing.

The comparison with the murders of civil rights workers in the South rather misses the point as well. Those acts were not just murders, they were also political terrorism. If the Klansmen of the 1960s South were no more than trailer trash who got drunk and shot each other from time to time, they would not have been nearly as bad. Likewise your only serious accusation against Danish Muslims is that they are violent welfare bums, not that they are terrorists.

And where have we heard that song before anyway, that poverty-related violence is tantamount to terrorism? "Need a welfare check? Just threaten to riot." This is not a description of the Klan by Yankees, it is a description of blacks by Klansmen.

2:48 PM, February 19, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Guez whut kinda yoots they be talkin' 'bout:


Violent crime rate rises among youths

By Judith R. Tackett, jtackett@nashvillecitypaper.com
January 12, 2006

Statistics in Nashville and nationwide show that at-risk kids are becoming more violent.

The increase in youthful violent offenders is a phenomenon taking hold nationwide, but a look at Nashville’s jump in murder victims last year shows that the increase occurred in perpetrators aged 18-24.

Nashville saw 99 murders last year, significantly more than the 58 murder victims in 2004, a record low. Nashville averages 77 murders per year, Metro Police Chief Ronal Serpas said.

“We think the biggest group of victims of death is between … 18-24. Probably the mean median mode on that is actually closer to 30, but if you look at the largest number of people who have been killed, it’s going to be in that 18-24 year age group,” Serpas said. “And the largest number of perpetrators is going to be in between that 18-24-year-old group.”

...

Sorry to disappoint you, Greggy darling, but most Tennessee murderers are not NASACAR racing fans.

-- david.davenport.1@netzero.com

2:50 PM, February 19, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Need a welfare check? Just threaten to riot." This is not a description of the Klan by Yankees, it is a description of blacks by Klansmen.

So, Greggy darling, are saying that Slate.com writer Mickey Kaus is a closet Klansman?

-- david.davenport.1@netzero.com

2:54 PM, February 19, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My first job (well, one of three concurrent ones) out of college was working at an SSI/Workers' Comp law firm. I had no legal experience but was able to copy/paste most arguments based on case law. I can fully confirm Dr. Helen's reports: the majority of clients/plaintiffs in SSI cases have not worked, or were deemed incapable of work (based on the sick definitions of ability and education, both physical and mental) and there was/is a disproportionate number who had no intentions of working - ever. One of my favorite cases was that of a female dancer who was injured in a motorcycle accident while riding with the owner of the club she danced at. Said dancer was 19, never had another job, and since she was making roughly 1500 bucks a month as a dancer, had extremely low intelligence as to prevent her from doing desk work, was now permanently unable to spin around a pole, she is getting a large check until she hits retirement age, every single month. That the brief I wrote (ha - copy/pasted) enabled her to do this, shame on me. Shame on the system for allowing such nonsense, and shame on our lawmakers for not disallowing the charade from continuing. The parasites know full well where the hosts are, and they feed on them voraciously. Unfortunately, it's the good, hard working people who have to support their idleness with our tax dollars.

Don't even get me started on the crap that went on in New Orleans, where we had another office. The corruption down there has already been well documented, but if anyone cares, multiply 15 kids of a 35-year-old woman by roughly $400/month per child, and you'll get close to what SSI is capable of disbursing to someone who is unable to work due to physical inability (obesity and second impairments) and education level (dropped out of school at 15 after first child).

It's not such a bad life if you don't mind it.

3:02 PM, February 19, 2006  
Blogger Greg Kuperberg said...

AVI: First, I don't care whether you believe me or not. I cited original, official sources and you can read them for yourself. I would rather that you did, in fact. If anything about your thinking disappoints me, it is the habit of trusting other people's words, or mistrusting them, instead of thinking through official statistics on your own.

So whether or not I acknowledge this or that about Maritime provinces shouldn't matter. In any case, I don't see what there is to acknowledge. The question then was whether Canada was inviting crime by not punishing it. It doesn't look like it. If you compare like with like — Maine with New Brunswick, or Minnesota with Ontario — Canadian provinces do not have more crime.

3:03 PM, February 19, 2006  
Blogger pst314 said...

"But what you actually said was, 'appeasement of violence doesn't work.' Homicide statistics in Denmark don't bear you out on that one."

Greg, overall violence statistics do not themselves tell us anything about the merits or demerits of appeasing thugs. On the other hand, you might take note of many reports showing that Muslim immigrants account for most of the recent rise in violent crime there, including forcible rape and gang rape directed at infidels. You could also take note of the repeated statements by Muslims showing that they despise weakness and respect force, and you might change your mind regarding the appropriateness of forceful suppression of these barbarians. Then you could notice that these Muslims are intolerant of other religions (not to mention of atheism) and are enamoured of theocracy and oppression. But go ahead and claim that we're all a bunch of racists for opposing theocratic fascists. Like you said, it's a free country. And we are free to ask why you would, in effect, side with fascists.

3:12 PM, February 19, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Guns, drugs, passion play big part but don't answer big question: Why?

By AILENE TORRES
Staff Writer

...


The victims ( Notice the reporter's emphasis on the diversity of the victims? -- DD ) of last year's killings included people from a variety of ethnic groups, ages, income levels and walks of life.

A Tennessean analysis of the 100 victims and the circumstances surrounding their deaths found that many shared common traits:

• At least 40 of the victims knew their killers.

• At least 40 cases involved drug activity or disputes with romantic partners or other domestic acquaintances.

• More than two-thirds of the victims were shot to death.

• More than half of the victims — 55 — were black, although African-Americans make up 28% of Nashville's population.

The disproportionate representation of African-Americans among last year's homicide victims is particularly troublesome to groups such as the 100 Black Men of Middle Tennessee, which has worked to stem the trend through their "007" program.

In 1991, the group selected 22 second-grade boys for intensive mentoring and tutoring in hopes of ensuring their success. The program's name, 007, refers to 2007, the year the boys would graduate from college.

When the class graduated from high school in 2003, six of the boys enrolled in college.

Among them was Desmond Romel Conway.

A sophomore at Tennessee State University, Conway, 19, appeared poised to become one of the program's success stories when he was shot in the face during a drug dispute in January 2005, becoming Nashville's sixth homicide of the year.

"Everybody was stunned and saddened by that," said Ronald Roberts, chairman of The 100 Black Men of Middle Tennessee. "You never want to hear anything like that. We do everything we can to reverse that trend."



...

To repeat, the majority of Tennessee murderers aren't NASACAR racing fans and don't vote Republican. Blabbing on and on about killers down in today's Dixie is not a winning topic for Pee Cee-ism.

Sorry to disappoint you, Greg my love.

( D. Davenport wonders if Mr. Kuperberg is a seasoned citizen whose mental clock sometime shortly after seeing the movie "Easy Rider." )

-- david.davenport.1@netzero.com

3:16 PM, February 19, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Mr. Davenport,

Thanks very much for the previous article. I have worked on a number of murder cases in Tn, including Nashville and the majority have been with African American youth who shot someone during a drug deal gone wrong--one of the defendants I evaluated was only 12 years old when he shot a man for not paying for "bad" drugs. Nashville and Memphis seem to have a significant portion of gang activity--in Memphis, even the police there mention that often, these kids are sent from the North or California (the same state where Greg lives) to get away from the bad influences there--our bad luck--these same kids are now involved in gang activity in Tn--what a shock!

3:23 PM, February 19, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I wonder why we have murders? Should we identify the ethnic minority responsible for the murders and lock them up preemptively? Of course not. Murders are always a minority within a minority. Out of 5.7 million people there are 425 murders. How does anyone extrapolate from 425 to half a million of a particular ethnicity? How do you extrapolate from 425 to 5.7 million? your method is flawed Greg. The 425 is not any kind of random statistic, and their murderers are even less so.

As for women defending themselves, at least in the US we don't execte women for defending themselves from rapists like they apparently do in Iran.

There are honest and virtuous Muslims. They are honest and virtuous because of something else other than their religion.

The same is true of race. There are virtuous and honest people who are black. My ex-wife is one. I had a black roommate who was a felon, but was trying to go straight, and at least together we got him off parole. People can change.

The same is true of Christianity. For example, consider the Catholic Priests who molest children. Their religion gives them a way out: Faith, confession of the sin and the Blood of Christ and grace due to His Sacrifice assures them forgiveness. Then they go do it again. And again.

Virtue is not assured by religion, and in fact, religion is usually a cop-out from virtue. Only people who intentionally try to be virtuous can succeed, and religion is separate from that.

3:36 PM, February 19, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Anonymous 2:04:

Yes, I understand they are two different countries--my point is the same--that radical Islam is a problem in Europe.

3:41 PM, February 19, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

whose mental clock sometime shortly after seeing the movie "Easy Rider"

Sorry about the typo. Make that. "whose mental clock stopped shortly after seeing the movie "Easy Rider" when that movie was new.

Maybe I need to wind up my own mental clock. At least I'm not stuck in the distant past, as some Lefty Liberals are.



Helen, that's a good point about cultural imports from CA.


-- david.dav enport.1@netzero.com

3:42 PM, February 19, 2006  
Blogger TopCat said...

I think if smartypants Greg looked at the percentage of Danish murderers who were Muslims, he would have to alter his argument. I've seen statistics that the overwhelming percentage of rapists in Scandinavian prisons are muslims, while they make up a small fraction of the population.

3:58 PM, February 19, 2006  
Blogger Greg Kuperberg said...

So we seem to have two emerging theories about how Tennessee can have 425 murders and Denmark only 52, in the year 2001. First, that in Tennessee the blacks commit most of the murders. That is undoubtedly true, but you do not get from 452 to 52 only by taking away half or two-thirds. (And by the way, if Tennessee has 5% more people than Denmark now, in 2001 the two were virtually tied in population.) I am still looking for the precise statistics for Tennessee, but using national black and white crime rates, whites in Tennessee almost certainly committed more than 100 homicides in 2001. (If anyone has the exact figure, I would be much obliged.) That is still twice as many as all Danes, Christian and Muslim.

The other theory is that the overall homicide rate for Denmark doesn't say much about the 5% Muslim population there. (It's 5% according to some, but not all reports.) Maybe not, but if the Danes are so fond of appeasement, why do they need Muslims to have a lot of crime? According to Helen Smith, "human nature is the same all over." How can the Danes be so peaceful if they appease crime?

Besides, although again I would like to see precise statistics, I doubt that Danish Muslims are all that violent compared to Tennesseeans. Violent appeased welfare bums though they may be, I doubt that the 270,000 Danish Muslims perpetrated as many as 15 of Denmark's 52 homicides in 2001. That is how many homicides there were in 2001 in Knoxville, population 175,000.

4:05 PM, February 19, 2006  
Anonymous Jeffersonian said...

Does anyone think this approach is new? Has no one ever read Tom Wolfe's indispensible essay "Mau-Mauing the Flak Catchers"?

The only thing new under the sun is the history, and sociology, you don't know yet.

4:14 PM, February 19, 2006  
Blogger Greg Kuperberg said...

By the way, I see no need for these extraneous comments about NASCAR and Easy Rider. I have not seen Easy Rider and I don't plan to, but I did grow up in Alabama. I have been to both Nashville and Knoxville (as well as Denmark).

I haven't been to a NASCAR race. I do not see the point of paying to watch traffic. But when I was growing up I did see it on TV, sometimes. NASCAR may be boring, but it has nothing to do with crime.

4:16 PM, February 19, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

this is an "interesting site".. any culture that bans people from doing crosswords, or from even getting in a car with someone who sells alcohol (they neednt have drank it ever) some of these guidings are.. insane

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=3473&dgn=4

somehow crosswords are against the rules

"In principle, these puzzles are a form of permissible entertainment, but from what we see, many of the words used have evil implications, such as the names of artists who are insignificant, morally corrupt or intellectually deviated. Or the crosswords expect answers that are of no benefit and are not worth the time and effort required to solve the puzzle. In addition, they distract people from reading serious and useful material, which is like wasting one’s life in doing something that is not useful."

5:00 PM, February 19, 2006  
Blogger TangoMan said...

Greg,

If you want to tease out a race & crime without actually going to the Tennessee and Danish crime statistics, you could work by proxy in order to get some rough level of understanding. First, compare two Scandanavian cities, Copenhagen and Malmo, Sweden, which is 16 kilometers away across the Oresund Strait and the two cities are connected by the Oresund Bridge. You can factor in urbanization as an agent of criminal behavior, thus expecting Copenhagen, with a population of 1,100,000, to have a higher violent crime rate than Malmo, with it's population of 250,000. However, Malmo's incidence of rape crimes is 5-6 times greater than that of Copenhagen:


The number of rape charges per capita in Malmö is 5 – 6 times that of Copenhagen, Denmark. Copenhagen is a larger city, but the percentage of immigrants is much lower. And it’s not just the rape statistics that reveal a scary increase in Malmö or Sweden. Virtually every kind of violent crime is on the rise. Robberies have increased with 50 % in Malmö only during the fall of 2004. Threats against witnesses in Swedish court cases have quadrupled between 2000 and 2003. During the past few decades, massive immigration has changed the face of Sweden’s major cities, as well as challenged the viability of the welfare state.


You can add another data point from Norway, which granted doesn't say anything particular about Denmark, but hey, you're bringing in Tennessee. Here's a report from Afterposten:


Two out of three charged with rape in Norway's capital are immigrants with a non-western background according to a police study. The number of rape cases is also rising steadily.The study is the first where the crime statistics have been analyzed according to ethnic origin. Of the 111 charged with rape in Oslo last year, 72 were of non-western ethnic origin, 25 are classified as Norwegian or western and 14 are listed as unknown.

Rape charges in the capital are spiraling upwards, 40 percent higher from 1999 to 2000 and up 13 percent so far this year.


So, these points are more of an apple-apple comparison with the Danish vs. Swedish immigration policies being the most significant difference to merit further investigation. The two countries have much in common, religion, welfare policies, gov't philosophy, cultural similarities, etc, yet their crime rates are diverging sharply.

As for Tennessee and the racial angle on the issue of murder, here is the Dept. of Justice finding - "Blacks were 7 times more likely than whites to commit homicide in 2002."

5:18 PM, February 19, 2006  
Anonymous Vicki said...

"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing."
-- Albert Einstein

Frankly, I could do without "those who do evil," but Einstein's point is still valid.

6:12 PM, February 19, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Getting back to the topic of terrorism and the dole, this is from the current topmost set of comments at http://www.biased-bbc.blogspot.com/:

Now when Paxman had his run-in with Anjem Choudhary nwe did not get the update.......over at exposingislam blogspot they report:

Rubana, 34, was heartbroken after he followed his evil hero Omar Bakri to Lebanon.
Choudary returned to organise the Danish Embassy outrage, where protesters carried banners proclaiming: "Behead Those Who Insult Islam."
He found time to visit Rubana, sons Luqman, six, and Hediyah, one, and daughter Bintanjan, eight, amid fury over the protests.
But he left his Muslim wife in tears by vowing to go back to Lebanon soon to accelerate his campaign of "Jihad".
She told a friend: "We wanted him to stay but there’s nothing I can do to stop him. He’s thrown himself into leading this new Muslim group and doesn’t live here any more. We will miss him but we’ll be OK on housing benefit and income support."
Rubana gets around £1,000-a-month housing benefit, £360 income support, £160 child benefit and £192-a-week child tax credits.
Her husband claimed £202-a-month income support until last September.
Choudary — son of a Kent market trader —

now why doesn't Newsnight tell us stuff like this ?
Anonymous | 19.02.06 - 10:05 pm | #

-- david.davenport.1@netzero.com

6:38 PM, February 19, 2006  
Blogger Assistant Village Idiot said...

Greg, perhaps my simplest point is that in a discussion whether appeasing violence is a preferable solution to cracking down on it, the relative homicide rates are irrelevant, but you put them forward as a capping argument. I tried to broaden it into a larger discussion of societal violence and culture, but you wished to collapse the argument back to homicide statistics as a marker of... of well, something.

Human interactions are a complex system, with sensitive dependence on initial, and some ongoing, conditions. Pulling a single fish out of the ocean tells us nothing. I see the connection you are attempting to make: "they have a smaller amount of one type of violence, therefore what they are doing must be superior." This seems analogous to claiming "slavery produced more singable religious songs, so we should try that again."

6:45 PM, February 19, 2006  
Anonymous Alan said...

Dave said...

Speaking of political correctness, can we all disabuse ourselves of the idea that Islam has any inherent worth?

Its adherents certainly have not shown it to have anything worthy about it. Unless by "worthy religion" one means a religion in which rape, murder, beheadings, and suicide bombings are its theology.


My, my. It is (not) nice to see that racism is alive and well in the world.

You can criticize individuals or small groups with narrowly defined beliefs all you want, but to tar and feather the second largest religion and all its adherents like this because of the actions of a comparitive minority is a rather blantant example of ignorance and projection. To do so is, after all, the definition of prejudice.

6:51 PM, February 19, 2006  
Blogger Greg Kuperberg said...

TangoMan: If you want to tease out race & crime without actually going to the Tennessee and Danish crime statistics, you could work by proxy in order to get some rough level of understanding.

Nope, that is exactly what I don't want. I don't want to "tease out" anything, and I don't want to work by proxy. I don't want to surf through chains of blog postings for catch-phrases, speculations, and statistics that have been chipped to slivers. I do not want Rorschach interpretations of swings and spikes. I want the most reliable, tangible figures from the official sources. That way I can have a precise understanding, not just some rough understanding, of at least something.

In this case it means the baseline homicide rate of large jurisdictions. Reported rape rates are notoriously variable because there are many ways that different cities and police departments can interpret and report acts of sex. Since a reported homicide usually comes with a dead body, it is much more constant.

7:56 PM, February 19, 2006  
Blogger TangoMan said...

Greg,

Then I suggest you do a longitudinal analysis, say 40 years, of the Danish homicide rate as well as the same for other jurisdictions. 40 years should give you enough of a range to capture most of the Islamic immigration to Denmark. You should be able to uncover that baseline that you're seeking and then double check against per capita rates for different Danish ethnic communities. Happy hunting.

8:15 PM, February 19, 2006  
Blogger Greg Kuperberg said...

AVI: Perhaps my simplest point is that in a discussion whether appeasing violence is a preferable solution to cracking down on it, the relative homicide rates are irrelevant, but you put them forward as a capping argument.

Homicide rates certainly are relevant to any discussion of violent crime, but I agree with you that a simple comparison of homicide rates is not a capping argument for anything. I do not mean to offer it as proof that appeasement (or more accurately, welfare and rehabilitation) reduces crime. My point is a little different. I think that turning the other cheek is sound moral advice from Jesus (and others). I think that it should take extraordinary evidence to overrule that advice for the sake of public safety. A Tennessean who uses Denmark as an argument against Christian forgiveness starts from well behind because, for whatever reason, Tennessee is much more violent than Denmark.

I would honestly be interested in explanations of how you get from 52 homicides in 2001 in Denmark to 425 homicides in Tennessee. Is it that Tennessee is 16% black? It is true that the homicide rate for blacks is about 7 or 8 times as high as for whites nationwide, but that does not get you from 425 to 52. It might get you from 425 to 200 or so homicides committed by whites, although again I would like to see the real figure. (If I were involved with the Tennessee justice system, it would be easier for me to get the number.)

Again, another question is just how many of these 52 homicides were committed by Denmark's 3-5% Muslim population. For that matter, how many were perpetrated against Danish non-Muslims. It can't be many. It is a strange pretext someone in Tennessee to pass judgment. Passing judgment on the Danes is what started this discussion; it wasn't any comment from me.

8:31 PM, February 19, 2006  
Anonymous Ken B said...

Alan,

"My, my. It is (not) nice to see that racism is alive and well in the world."

I don't agree with Dave's view, having had close Muslim friends for over a quarter of a century,but his comment has nothing whatever to do with racism. It is about the adherents of a religion. A religion can be criticized just as any other idea can be.

9:14 PM, February 19, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There is a practical reason why Muhammedan partisans insist that opposition to Islam is racism, at least in the UK.

I have learned from the excellent biasedbbc blog that expressing hatred of a race is an actual crime in today's UK, punishable by a prison term. Despising a religion, however, is not currently an actionable crime in Britain. Hence the tendency for Muhammedans and their Lefty stooges to label opposition to Islam as racism.

Check out the ongoing trial and re-trial of Nick Griffin and his British National Party colleague to understand the context.

In the US, I expect that one hears the same anti-Islam = racist smear at Pee Cee universities.


////////////////////////////////


I think that turning the other cheek is sound moral advice from Jesus (and others). I think that it should take extraordinary evidence to overrule that advice for the sake of public safety.

So Greg, you are prescribing Christian
ethics as the norm for Westerners?

-- david.davenport.1@netzero.com

9:31 PM, February 19, 2006  
Anonymous James said...

I think back in the 70's Tome Wolfe called this "Mau-mauing the Falk-catchers."

10:03 PM, February 19, 2006  
Blogger David said...

From Walter Miller's great novel "A Canticle for Leibowitz"

"To minimize suffering and to maximize security were natural and proper ends of society and Caesar. But then they became the only ends, somehow, and the only basis of law - a perversion. Inevitably, then, in seeking only them, we found only their opposites: maximum suffering and minimum security."

10:30 PM, February 19, 2006  
Anonymous murphy300 said...

One of life's earliest lessons:
Give someone an inch and he'll take a mile.

10:48 PM, February 19, 2006  
Blogger El Jefe Maximo said...

The problem is television and mass graphic communication. Politicans are unable to openly resort to massive force cruelty or violence in places where they are elected and where the result of cruelty may be broadcast into the electors' living rooms. On the rare occasions when this is permitted to happen, those upon whom cruelty is used must be so beyond the pale as to clearly be in the wrong, (most people aren't this stupid); the use of force must be strictly circumscribed (which results in the job being left unfinished) -- like discontinuing antibiotic use when symptoms disappear; and when all else fails there must be scapegoats to protect the politicos from accusations of "overreaction."

Our inability to label things and people "evil" and moral relativism contributes to our inability to use negative reinforcement. We doubt even the morality of protecting ourselves.

Free government and mass communications tend, over the long run, to undermine the very conditions that permit their existence.

Had there been television cameras at Gettysburg in 1863, folks in New York would need passports to visit Texas.

10:59 PM, February 19, 2006  
Blogger Greg Kuperberg said...

David Davenport: So Greg, you are prescribing Christian ethics as the norm for Westerners?

At least in the United States, Christian forgiveness would be an improvement.

There is a relevant quote from Charles Graner, the notorious instigator of some of the Abu Ghraib crimes: "The Christian in me says it's wrong, but the corrections officer in me says, 'I love to make a grown man piss himself.'" I think that, unfortunately, Graner may have spoken for many corrections officers. I have to wonder how many prison guards in America enjoy inflicting torture as Graner did, and how many more are just plain rotten people. Guarding prisons seems like an ideal career for people who want to get away with despicable sin.

It may also be a major difference between justice in Denmark and in the United States, not so much because of prison conditions (although those might differ as well), but because of the sheer number of Americans in prison. Not only does Tennessee have 8 times as many homicides (in 2001) as Denmark, it also has 6 times as many prisoners, according to this and this.

11:36 PM, February 19, 2006  
Blogger gs said...

Helen wrote:

"You would think that governments as well as people in general would understand that appeasing and rewarding negative behavior doesn't work."

She also cited personal experience to that effect.

I instinctively agree, and yet, and yet...

Appeasement behavior is so widespread that I assume it has an evolutionary basis. Is there relevant research, especially on primates?

The presumed evolutionary origin of placatory strategies doesn't necessarily indicate whether such strategies are appropriate in the current situation. Nevertheless, imho, insight into their biological basis could be useful for fostering communication among those who presently favor such strategies and those who do not.

11:54 PM, February 19, 2006  
Anonymous Acksiom said...

Food for thought: 'The Ugly Face of Crime'

3:16 AM, February 20, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Have y'all noticed that without Greg the K, we have interesting and diverse discussions...but as soon as he sticks his head into these discussions in true trollish fashion, we start chasing our own tails? Sigh.

I keep telling you: Kuperberg has no other agenda other than playing games with people. He is inconsistent, self contradictory, and affects a style that is *designed* to get people angry with him: basic trollish behavior. That is the point, folks.

I wish folks wouldn't play with Greg, because from my perspective it damages discussion. I learn a lot from reading the posts here...but not when folks are arguing with Kuperberg. Frankly, I can easily predict what position Kupeberg will take on any given subject (and haven't been wrong yet), and he clearly views his role here as adversarial and "standing up" for an oppositional point of view.

One poster used to call him a "contrarian," and does it ever fit.

Still, its a free country. Greg knows what he knows (or thinks he knows) and I promise you that he is laughing at everyone who tries to honestly engage him. It's a game to him, a way for him to feel like he is a big man...instead of a chance to engage and learn from others. It's not about disagreeing with others---that goes on all the time here. It's the "game" aspect of the whole thing.

Sure, I could be wrong.

Just compare how things were in his absence. Then tell me how much better things are with his input. If y'all like it, great.

Me, I'm kind of sad.

3:37 AM, February 20, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

anonymous 3:37-

I don't agree with Greg all the time but he has had some interesting posts. And he is one of the few to provide links to back his arguments up.

Maybe we should be concerned with your combativeness - you show a schoolgirlish tendency of trying to convince everyone to ignore someone you don't agree with. I think we're adults here, we can decide for ourselves the merits of someone's arguments, and their likely motivation.

Instead of trying to muster a "Greg has cooties" campaign maybe you should intelligently challenge his arguments, which I haven't really seen you do.

And as far as "consistency" goes, people's views can change from all sorts of things - reading, learning, thinking, new information, new experiences, etc. And people can misunderstand or not even comprehend someone else's views. I tend to agree with whomever said "consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds".

5:06 AM, February 20, 2006  
Blogger Assistant Village Idiot said...

If the relative violence in society were the topic under discussion, then the homicide rates would be an excellent jumping off point. But the discussion was not how will Danes deal with other Danes who get violent, but how will they deal with immigrant Muslims who get violent. You could make an argument that they should do what they have always done with each other, as that has clearly worked well in building a society low in homicide. But as they have a current eruption of demonstrations advocating violence, an increase in death threats, and a growing crime problem among their non-Danish citizens -- situations which are not occurring in Tennessee at present -- then advice from Tennessee in general, never mind an individual Volunteer with experience in both homicide and government disability, is not out of place. Denmark can declare itself expert in developing a peaceful culture out of a homogenous population. Something else is happening here.

8:27 AM, February 20, 2006  
Blogger Melchior Sternfels v. Fuchshaim said...

Anonymous@5:06 AM: The quote you are looking for is from Emerson:

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."

If your thinking isn't at least somewhat consistent, then you are probably insane.

If I understand Greg's post at 8:31 PM, he seems to connect welfare and rehabilitation with turning the other cheek. I think this connection is far from self-evident and needs to be argued for.

What's more, he seems to assert some relationship between Tennessee's welfare policies and its homicide rate. But does he have more than a correlation? Correlations alone, for obvious reasons, do nothing to show causal relationships. We can make correlations in any number of directions. For instance, according to Nationmaster, Denmark has a 20-25% higher suicide rate than the U.S. Arguing as Greg does, I could ask why Denmark's generous welfare benefits don't make those living there happy enough to prevent them from killing themselves at a higher rate than people living under the less-generous provisions of the U.S. Perhaps welfare makes people depressed.

As for comparative levels of violence between the U.S. and welfare-generous societies: according to the U.N.'s Internationanl Crime Victimisation Survey from 2000, the U.S. is right in the middle of the 17 developed countries surveyed as to the prevalance of crime (see the summary). For violent crime apart from homicide, the U.S. is apparently safer than most countries in the U.K. To wit:

"An overall measure of contact crime was taken as robbery, assaults with force, and sexual assaults (against women only). The highest risks were in Australia, England and Wales, Canada, Scotland and Finland: over 3% were victims. This was more than double the level in USA, Belgium, Catalonia, Portugal, and Japan (all under 2%). In Japan the risk of contact crime was especially low (0.4%)."

In measures of non-violent theft, Denmark scores relatively badly in the ICVS. Perhaps welfare appeasement^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H makes people want to steal.

In sum, Greg is playing awfully fast and loose with Christ's teachings, and he is ignoring a raft of factors that suggest that the relationship between welfare and violence is so complex as to make his comparison between Denmark and Tennessee meaningless.

9:26 AM, February 20, 2006  
Anonymous Vicki said...

On appeasement as protection: Perhaps the clearest example of that approach is the abused child who seems to have an especially close relationship with the parent who is, in fact, the abuser. "If I'm good enough, maybe (s)he won't hurt me." So the child tries harder, but the abuse does not stop and may only get worse as the abuser takes advantage of the weakness.

Dr. Helen, is this a fairly accurate picture?

9:42 AM, February 20, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Vicki,

That is an accurate picture for the most part, but governments and their citizens who would see themselves as similar to abused children are a sad lot indeed.

10:06 AM, February 20, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sheesh, 5:06, you sound kind of like you-know-who.

You all can listen or not. I never argued otherwise in my post; I simply gave my point of view based on reading an awful lot of Kuperbergian prose. Greg Kuperberg has an agenda, and it is not proactive, but reactive. As you might have noticed, I did say I have learned a lot, and even changed my mind from time to time, based on thoughtful posts I have read.

I honestly don't know Greg well enough to know if he has "cooties," but I do know that his arguments aren't about consistency or fairness. They are about a specific agenda, and an unchanging and unmodified point of view.

But none of that matters. As I wrote before, people can listen all they want to trolls. Notice that the other posters moved on, and either discussed Kuperberg or they didn't. Either is fine.

Posters can even argue with trollish behavior, as I am now.

Thanks for the insults, incidentally. It really does bring up the value of the discussion---exactly the point I was making. Thanks for illustrating it.

11:42 AM, February 20, 2006  
Blogger Greg Kuperberg said...

AVI: But as [the Danes] have a current eruption of demonstrations advocating violence,

Except that very few of the demonstrations have been in Denmark itself. I do not know what the Danish demonstrations advocated, but those demonstrations were not violent. Denmark, like the United States, recognizes the right to peaceable assembly.

and a growing crime problem among their non-Danish citizens

Or rather, among their non-white citizens. If they are citizens, then they are just as Danish as any other Danes. From the statistics, whether the crime problem is "growing" or not, Danes handle the crime problem among their non-white citizens at least as well as Tennesseeans handle the crime problem among theirs.

Because, to get back to the numbers, you have 425 homicides in 2001 in Tennessee, and 52 in Denmark. Tennessee is 16% black, while Denmark is 5% ethnic Muslim. (Some of them may be secularized.) Earlier on this page people wanted to attribute the high homicide rate in Tennessee to its black population. Well okay, suppose that Tennessee's 930,000 blacks (as of the 2000 census) committed 200 of these homicides. That is still more violence per capita than you can attribute to the 270,000 ethnic Muslims in Denmark.

Besides, the original post also says "I can tell you that human nature is the same all over." If human nature truly is the same all over, then the "mistake" of "appeasing" criminals ought to invite violence from all races, from Northern Europeans as well as from Turks and blacks. Yet for some reason, the Scots-Irish in Tennessee are substantially more violent than the Nordic Danes. (That's assuming the national ratio of 7 for black vs white homicide rates.)

Then advice from Tennessee in general, never mind an individual Volunteer with experience in both homicide and government disability, is not out of place.

Except that it's not just advice, it's passing judgment on Denmark (and the rest of Western Europe for that matter). There is a lot of sarcasm about the Danish liberal chumps in the original post. Even if it had been meant as constructive advice, it's ignorant. It wasn't informed by any clear statistics about violence in Denmark, by Muslims or non-Muslims; only by some fuzzy logic about protests and welfare.

12:25 PM, February 20, 2006  
Blogger Greg Kuperberg said...

Melchior: If I understand Greg's post at 8:31 PM, he seems to connect welfare and rehabilitation with turning the other cheek. I think this connection is far from self-evident and needs to be argued for.

It is hard to interpret rehabilitation of criminals as anything other than turning the other cheek.

What's more, he seems to assert some relationship between Tennessee's welfare policies and its homicide rate.

I'm leaving open exactly why Tennessee has so much more homicide than Denmark. I don't come to the discussion with an explanation for everything. All I will say is that the "explanation" that Tennessee is 16% black while Denmark is 5% Muslim isn't adequate. It is not only dismissive at the moral level, it also doesn't get you a factor of 8.

The following differences come to mind: Denmark has strict gun control. Tennessee has 6 times as many prisoners as Denmark. Denmark has no death penalty. Denmark has more generous welfare benefits. All of these should lead to more homicide, not less, according to the ideology of this blog. It makes me wonder how many homicides Denmark is supposed have if it were enlightened according to American Republican standards. 10 instead of 52? None whatsoever?

For instance, according to Nationmaster, Denmark has a 20-25% higher suicide rate than the U.S.

A 20-25% difference is simply a lot less to explain than a factor of 8. I have pointed out that Tennessee has 80 homicides for every 10 in Denmark, and you counter that by saying that Denmark has 12 suicides for every 10 in America. That isn't all that different. Moreover, from a libertarian perspective, suicide is a personal problem and not a crime.

12:54 PM, February 20, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Moreover, from a libertarian perspective, suicide is a personal problem and not a crime.

Is that supposed to be a point in favor of Libertarianism? What an ethos of anomie and selfishness.

...

I see on this blog that Tennessee is 16 percent black. However, Nashville is 28 percent black. The percentage of Memphians of African descent is even higher. I believe that more than a third of the residents of that fine city have African ancestors. Most murders in Tennessee happen in Memphis or Nashville. Homicide is not evenly distributed among Tennessee's ZIP codes.

To repeat, the topic of homicide in today's Tennessee is not "To Kill a Mockingbird" stuff. It is not a winning topic for Leftism, unless the premise is that more welfare would mean less bang bang.

Denmark has more generous welfare benefits. All of these should lead to more homicide, not less, according to the ideology of this blog.

But we haven't discussed the sociology of Syria, Iraq, Iran, and the West Bank yet. All those places are very much welfare states, as is Britain, which by some measures now has higher crime rates than Tennessee.

-- david.davenport.1@netzero.com

1:56 PM, February 20, 2006  
Blogger a psychiatrist who learned from veterans said...

Greg, as far as 'turning the other cheek' is concerned, it is probably a good thing Jesus isn't discussing Muslims today if his reaction to the Pharisees and the High Priest is any indication of his interest in making nice. Helen started off his post talking about her experience with disability clients. It seems the more narcissitic were unable to play well with others and found it hard to prefer or stay in gainful employment. The Muslims we are concerened with seem to have gotten themselves into a narcissistic state and maybe the dynamics of welfare support and riches secondary to happening to live above oil have something to do with it. To me it is in thinking of a strategy to deal with narcissistic characters that Dr. Helen offers her advice.

2:27 PM, February 20, 2006  
Blogger Greg Kuperberg said...

Michael Brophy: Greg, as far as 'turning the other cheek' is concerned, it is probably a good thing Jesus isn't discussing Muslims today if his reaction to the Pharisees and the High Priest is any indication of his interest in making nice.

As I mentioned, I'm not Christian and I do not by any means endorse everything that Jesus said. All I am saying is that the Sermon on the Mount has some good moral advice. (It would be nice if the American justice system heeded it more.) That advice isn't original to Christianity. The Wikipedia article on the Pharisees says that the Sermon on the Mount is consistent with Pharisee teachings, and that Phariseeism is a precursor to Rabbinical Judaism as it is practiced today. In fact Wikipedia suggests that the New Testament's criticisms of the Pharisees smacks of petty rivalry. That is consistent with my impression from skimming Matthew.

Helen started off [her] post talking about her experience with disability clients.

No, she didn't. She started with the thesis that radical Islam is destroying Europe from within. That was supported by the example that Danish Muslims have used intimidation to extort welfare from their naive, liberal Nordic hosts. Then she turned to her own experiences.

Since I was compared to George Wallace, I see little difference between the thesis that radical Islam is destroying Europe from within and the segregationist thesis of the 1960s that militant blacks were destroying the South from within. I am sure that Helen Smith is not segregationist and did not mean to take the discussion in this direction, but here we are anyway. Even today some people haven't quite let go of it. Tennessee can't help but have 8 times as many murders as Denmark, you know, because it's 16% black.

3:12 PM, February 20, 2006  
Blogger Gina said...

Can they be deported ?
That is the question I am asking , I also did a search and really couldn't find anything substantial , but I did find this ,

Hat ip to freerepublic


Can a Pious Muslim Become a Loyal American?Chronicles Magazine ^ 01/20/2006 Srdja Trifkovic
Posted on 01/21/2006 10:17:13 AM PST by Jeremydmccann

“We must never forget . . . that as Muslims, we are obligated to desire, and when possible to participate in, the overthrow of any non-Islamic government—anywhere in the world – in order to replace it by an Islamic one,” the speaker concluded his remarks. The venue was a mosque, not in Rawalpindi or Jeddah but in San Francisco. When a recent convert noted that if Muslims are obligated to overthrow the U.S. government then accepting Islam was tantamount to an act of political treason, the lecturer responded matter-of-factly, “Yes, that’s true.”
He was right both technically and substantively. A breach of allegiance to the United States by naturalized Muslims is not a rarity, it is an integral part of the Muslim-American experience. It is an inherent dilemma for many; it leads the serious few to give aid and comfort to the enemy. The problem will be solved only if and when Islamic activism is treated as grounds for the loss of acquired U.S. citizenship and deportation. The citizenship of any naturalized American who actively supports or preaches jihad, inequality of “infidels,” the establishment of the Shari’a law, etc., should be revoked, and that person promptly deported to the country of origin.

(Excerpt) Read more at chroniclesmagazine.org ...

grizzlymama.I stand with my country through thick and thin , these folks just want to take over ,say if I breach that promise to the USA then they can deport me . back to Canada ...


Those that are american born can be tried for treason against the State ? or am I wrong

3:48 PM, February 20, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am sure that Helen Smith is not segregationist and did not mean to take the discussion in this direction, but here we are anyway.

Well, I am sure that Mr. Kuperberg is not a pedophile, and did not mean to take the discussion in this direction, but here we are anyway.

-- daivd.davenport.1@netzero.com

3:52 PM, February 20, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ouch. If Greg Kuperberg wants to play verbal games and accuse Dr. Helen of being a segregationist...well, he can expect that kind of response. Shock value for shock value.

But then as I wrote before, Greg seems to have that nasty effect on blogs, doesn't he? Sorry if that seems to be a "schoolgirlish" concern to some, but to my knowledge the only times that personal attacks have occurred here have been when Greg Kuperberg is involved.

Incidentally, if anyone tried to actually relate GK to George Wallace, well, that is just plain amusing. George Wallace was many things, most of which I did not care for, but finding common cause with GK? Again, amusing.

4:05 PM, February 20, 2006  
Blogger Greg Kuperberg said...

David Davenport: What you are missing is that Helen Smith introduced segregationists into the discussion, not me. Her comment at 1:55PM addressed to me was:

I imagine George Wallance and Lester Maddox probably said things like that, but I'm surprised to hear that sort of thing from you.

What a cheeky analogy. If anything, "Need a Welfare Check? Just Threaten to Riot", which is the title of this page, is exactly what a segregationist like Wallace might have said. In fact there were many race riots in America in the 1960s, but there was also a lot of scare-mongering. Just like today, Al Qaeda is a terrible terrorist movement, but it has little to do with Danish Muslims.

4:38 PM, February 20, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dr. Greg Kuperberg wrote:

"Al Qaeda is a terrible terrorist movement, but it has little to do with Danish Muslims"

Oh, come on, Dr. Kuperberg! Just take off your troll mask for a few minutes.

Personally, I think you really enjoy playing word games for effect. You see yourself as the great Clear Thinking Liberal Amongst the Great Unwashed here.

You are a smart fellow; use those smarts to contribute and quit trying to play word games, stir people up, insult people personally, and so on. And to get ahead of the game, you certainly have insulted people personally, including me.

Play nice, please. Unless you don't care to change people's minds. Me, I think that is precisely what you are all about.

I would love to be wrong.

4:45 PM, February 20, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Come to think of it, Dr. Kuperberg, why don't you post those offensive Muslim cartoons on your academic website at UC Davis? Since all of this is so right wing and overblown and oh so right wing alarmist?

In fact, why don't you post those Muslim cartoons on your website, then post your home address right underneath it.

Since you think all of this is no big deal, I mean.

4:47 PM, February 20, 2006  
Blogger a psychiatrist who learned from veterans said...

Greg, So you are saying a few 'petty rivalry' cartoons would be appropos?

6:16 PM, February 20, 2006  
Blogger Greg Kuperberg said...

Michael Brophy,

Apropos of what? Being atheist gives me a welcome intellectual distance from the quarrels among Christians, Muslims, and Jews (Pharisees or any other kind). Making fun of religion sometimes serves a point, I suppose, but it often implies a kind of recognition of religion that is absent for me. A shrug at the cartoons of Mohammed, just like I shrug at "Piss Christ".

I think that "Life of Brian" is hilarious, but that is partly because I encountered Christianity quite a bit when I grew up (in Alabama, as I said). My children are more distanced from Christianity and they might be non-plussed by "Life of Brian". The secular life that we have now is a great relief to me.

7:14 PM, February 20, 2006  
Anonymous Antirelativist said...

Dear Greg Kuperberg:

Don't be rude in general, and in particular, don't be rude to a person who gives you a soapbox, Helen Smith. After reading a bunch of your relativist twaddle trying to state that Americans cannot complain about suffering in other countries until all suffering is eliminated in this country, she wrote:

"I'm really not sure what your point is, Greg. It seems you're suggesting that people who live in a place with a high murder rate have no business complaining about oppression and violence elsewhere. I guess that means that back in the 1960s New Yorkers had no standing to complain about the murder of civil rights workers in the South. I imagine George Wallance and Lester Maddox probably said things like that, but I'm surprised to hear that sort of thing from you."

You know perfectly well that she was not accusing of you being like Wallace or Maddox. She was heaping scorn on a silly and politically motivated idea of yours: that you use a differential "yardstick" to measure the activity of other nations with relation to this one.

You have a right to post whatever you like, but calling Dr. Smith a segregationist is not only wrong, but insufferably rude besides.

You think of yourself as well bred and polite, sir, but you are quite ill mannered, which I find common in elitists like yourself.

Shame on you.

8:47 PM, February 20, 2006  
Blogger Gina said...

well look what they are accomplishing here in USA , sickening ,

THE MUSLIM PRAYER OUTRAGE



5-6-04

The outrage situation is happening in the city of Hamtramck, state of Michigan. What happened is that the city council decided to approve the plan to allow Muslim prayer to be broadcast on loudspeakers 5 times a day. To top it off it's going to be in the Arabic language happening between the hours of 6:00am and 10:00pm. The city's Polish Catholic community is very upset behind all of this. I can totally understand that too. The Catholics feel that its violating their rights and forcing them to hear these prayers that they don't want to hear. The Muslims are saying that it's not as bad as the Catholic church bells they have to hear daily. This will become law on May 26th of this year.

I think the whole thing is just wrong. Sure, everyone has the right to practice whatever religion they want but they should never go so far as to have Muslim prayer, in Arabic, going on over loudspeakers. This is the USA not the Middle East. We have our customs, ways and beliefs. Plus, it is also forcing others to hear prayer that they dont want to hear.

This is the kind of garbage I'm talking about. When people come over here from other countries then they should try and fit into the American culture. This country should not be changed to fit other people cultures just to make them happy because that would be changing what our country is. This country is a large community of Christians. I honestly feel that if people, no matter what race/nationality they are, don't like our ways, then they should just leave this country. This is a great country and if you are offended by our culture then that's your problem. This country stands for a lot of very good things and is the best in the world. We arent out to offend anyone, but if it happens, thats not our problem.

This country was not founded by Muslims and Muslims are not in the majority of our population. Why should they be able to put their prayer on over loudspeakers? If it was the Christians doing this then I guarantee that there would be an uproar. The Muslims that are comparing church bells to this loudspeaker prayer stuff are crazy. There is a huge difference. Bells are something that can be tuned out. Are bells ringing really the same as this prayer stuff? No way. Use some common sense instead of silly reasoning.
_________________
Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those who say this are witless. ~Ayatollah Khomeini

8:55 PM, February 20, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm not Greg, whoever Greg is. I don't agree with what seems to be many of his views. I just feel that one should focus on ignoring him or countering his arguments, not on childish "Greg has cooties" campaigns.

In my opinion the Danes aren't used to violence because they have a pretty non-violent society. So the violence from minority groups comes as a shock to them.

I am against the appeasement of thugs of all stripes, including thugs in the minority or thugs in the majority. Also thugs that set themselves up as local "elders". This also includes thugs with academic degrees.

Of course claiming something is "appeasement" shouldn't be used to try to weasel out of crimes and torts one has committed. (I'm not referring to Danish welfare.)

There's a lot of projection here, especially by certain people babbling about "narcissism".

9:17 PM, February 20, 2006  
Blogger Greg Kuperberg said...

Anonymous 9:17PM: In my opinion the Danes aren't used to violence because they have a pretty non-violent society.

That could be true. But what makes them non-violent?

So the violence from minority groups comes as a shock to them.

How violent are these Danish minorities?

10:19 PM, February 20, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

In fact Wikipedia suggests that the New Testament's criticisms of the Pharisees smacks of petty rivalry. That is consistent with my impression from skimming Matthew.

Umm hmm, your impression from skimming Matthew. Very impressive scholdarship.


Bible, World English, John
From Wikisource
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Bible World English

The Good News According to John

...


8:13 The Pharisees therefore said to him, "You testify about yourself. Your testimony is not valid."

8:14 Jesus answered them, "Even if I testify about myself, my testimony is true, for I know where I came from, and where I am going; but you don't know where I came from, or where I am going. 8:15 You judge according to the flesh. I judge no one. 8:16 Even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent me. 8:17 It's also written in your law that the testimony of two people is valid. 8:18 I am one who testifies about myself, and the Father who sent me testifies about me."

8:19 They said therefore to him, "Where is your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither me, nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also." 8:20 Jesus spoke these words in the treasury, as he taught in the temple. Yet no one arrested him, because his hour had not yet come. 8:21 Jesus said therefore again to them, "I am going away, and you will seek me, and you will die in your sins. Where I go, you can't come."

8:22 The Jews therefore said, "Will he kill himself, that he says, 'Where I am going, you can't come?' "

8:23 He said to them, "You are from beneath. I am from above. You are of this world. I am not of this world. 8:24 I said therefore to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe thatI am he, you will die in your sins."

8:25 They said therefore to him, "Who are you?" Jesus said to them, "Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning. 8:26 I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you. However he who sent me is true; and the things which I heard from him, these I say to the world."

8:27 They didn't understand that he spoke to them about the Father. 8:28 Jesus therefore said to them, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and I do nothing of myself, but as my Father taught me, I say these things. 8:29 He who sent me is with me. The Father hasn't left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to him."

8:30 As he spoke these things, many believed in him. 8:31 Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. 8:32 You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

8:33 They answered him, "We are Abraham's seed, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How do you say, 'You will be made free?' "

8:34 Jesus answered them, "Most certainly I tell you, everyone who commits sin is the bondservant of sin. 8:35 A bondservant doesn't live in the house forever. A son remains forever. 8:36 If therefore the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. 8:37 I know that you are Abraham's seed, yet you seek to kill me, because my word finds no place in you. 8:38 I say the things which I have seen with my Father; and you also do the things which you have seen with your father."

8:39 They answered him, "Our father is Abraham." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham. 8:40 But now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God. Abraham didn't do this ....

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible,_World_English,_John#Chapter_8

-- david.davenport.1@netzero.com

10:39 PM, February 20, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous 9:17 wrote:

" I just feel that one should focus on ignoring him or countering his arguments, not on childish "Greg has cooties" campaigns."

A lot of us could care less if Dr Kuperberg has "cooties." What we think is that he is rude. And it is possible to present another viewpoint without being insulting and inflammatory. It cheapens the discourse.

1:16 AM, February 21, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A lot of us could care less if Dr Kuperberg has "cooties." What we think is that he is rude. And it is possible to present another viewpoint without being insulting and inflammatory. It cheapens the discourse.

I see a lot of rudeness directed at him.

I seem to see very rude people complaining about "rudeness" in others very often, often because they START it. Must be a projection thing.

10:59 AM, February 21, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hmm. People who talk about "projection" usually know a great deal about that subject. Perhaps not in this case.

The only point that the first poster made was that people should not present their ideas in rude or insulting ways. That shouldn't upset anyone.

But I keep finding that it does. Funny, huh?

11:06 AM, February 21, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Please, Dr. Helen, close this thread!

11:50 AM, February 21, 2006  
Blogger ronin1516 said...

Greg - why are you trying so hard to try to prove that muslims in Denmark are not a problem for Danish society?

11:01 AM, February 22, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

its not muslims in general. Its the radical ones that pose a danger to society. As do radical christians and catholics.

7:38 PM, February 21, 2007  
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