Self -Made Man
Author Norah Vincent has a new book coming out this week, Self-Made Man: One Woman's Journey into Manhood and Back,
in which she describes how she disguised herself as a man for eighteen months and what she learned. The most important lessons? To women, she says, "Men aren't what you think." To men, she says,"You have it harder than people know." She gives us insight into what it is like to date women, what it is like to relate to other men as a man, and who men are when women aren't around.
The book is just now coming out and here is what other blogs are saying about it: Feminine-genius blog really gets it and says to other women, "Assess ladies. Where is our part in all of this?" Dadvocate asks why he has to pass a test to date a woman? and Mr. Snitch says that Self-Made Man hits a nerve.
I look forward to talking with author Norah Vincent in a scheduled podcast about her book next week--it will be interesting to hear her experiences directly from her.
Update: Immodest Proposals blog says I am leading a "one woman charge against the 'War on men.'" I hope a discussion is not considered a war but if so, I think there are far more people leading it--think Warren Farrell, Christina Hoff Summers, and now maybe, Norah Vincent!
in which she describes how she disguised herself as a man for eighteen months and what she learned. The most important lessons? To women, she says, "Men aren't what you think." To men, she says,"You have it harder than people know." She gives us insight into what it is like to date women, what it is like to relate to other men as a man, and who men are when women aren't around.The book is just now coming out and here is what other blogs are saying about it: Feminine-genius blog really gets it and says to other women, "Assess ladies. Where is our part in all of this?" Dadvocate asks why he has to pass a test to date a woman? and Mr. Snitch says that Self-Made Man hits a nerve.
I look forward to talking with author Norah Vincent in a scheduled podcast about her book next week--it will be interesting to hear her experiences directly from her.
Update: Immodest Proposals blog says I am leading a "one woman charge against the 'War on men.'" I hope a discussion is not considered a war but if so, I think there are far more people leading it--think Warren Farrell, Christina Hoff Summers, and now maybe, Norah Vincent!
posted by Helen at 11:01 AM
45 Comments:
Thanks for the link, (a Helenlanche?), Your questioning isn't a 'war' per se, but I think the concepts you wish to question have been presented as an 'us, them' style dichotomy that resembles a long drawn out war rather than a discussion as they should be. Plus many suppositions that aren't based on anything provably factual are presented as gospel when it comes to the differences between men and women and that gets tiresome quickly (especially in academic and workplace settings)
But again, thanks for the link, I appreciate it.
Richard Feynman got the low down on women from some carny folk (husband and wife).
No matter what women claim verbally, their nature is such (most women in most places) that they prefer to be dominated.
Feynman did a couple of tests and found it was true in his small sample.
The Chapter is "You Just Ask Them" in "Surely You're Joking Mr. Feynman".
I think what is going on is that women are unhappy because they are getting what they say they want. Which is PC but does not conform to their inner needs.
Studys show that women want a docile man for child raising but a dominant man for procreation.
Feynman is such a mensch that he said that even if it was true it was not a way in which he was comfortable behaving.
"Harder than people know"? It's just that it's not what she's used to, probably.
When dating women, she "felt attacked, judged, on the defensive"? Seriously?! I don't feel that way at all when I date women. Maybe they're thinking what she says they are and I just don't notice it. If so, what I don't know doesn't seem to have hurt me. Maybe Robert Burns was wrong and we don't necessarily need to see ourselves as others see us. Then again, maybe this chick just dated more annoying women than I do. She didn't do her research in, oh... Manhattan, by any chance...?
I bet if she knew what men are thinking when they date women (and what they never even think of thinking), she'd feel even worse. And probably go back to dating women.
In dating, as in social interaction generally, you need to keep a few illusions intact to have any fun at all.
As I’ve been reading the posts and comments about Norah Vincent’s dating experiences while posing as a man I can’t help but wonder what kind of women would date a guy who looks like a lesbian. Would “Ned’s” dating pool be a little skewed toward the naive? Initially I considered reading her book because she took a novel approach. But the more I thought about it, the more I didn’t want to invest time in reading about the experiences of a woman who purposely deceived people. I hope the attention this book has received doesn’t mean that a man’s point of view is more credible if it’s first experienced and expressed by a woman. Would a book about an actual man’s dating experiences garner as much attention? And what about the women who dated “Ned.” I can’t wait to hear their experiences.
The girls gone wild phenomonon is caused by demographics.
Are women unhappy about it?
Sure. Why not, with so many women on the prowl.
To fix the problem some of the women are going to have to share a man.
"To fix the problem some of the women are going to have to share a man."
Oh, to be single again. I'd be available for sharing. :)
Nora's problem is that she didn't read the right dating manuals. You don't mope about the fact that women are not the way you idealize them, you learn what works and apply the knowledge.
http://www.fastseduction.com/
I’m a 55 year old divorced professional man. I’ve had a few dates over the last couple of years. I really don’t think most men take themselves too seriously. A lot of us have a self image which is less flattering than it should be. On the other hand, the plainest woman acts as if she is Helen of Troy and that it is up to HER to decide if she will grant the man the privilege of buying her drinks and dinner. (and that’s getting pricey these days). Most of these women, in my experience, frankly have very little to offer. I consider myself to look just as good, be better read, better educated, and have more money than either they have or most of the men they date (or were married to) have. And yet, these same women are constantly saying, “where are all the good men?” Well, I’ll tell you where they are. They’re sitting at home watching sports on TV because they’re tired of you.
Maybe it's all the fault of the sexual revolution: women are putting men through the wringer on first dates because they feel a huge amount of societal pressure to put out (as it were) early in the relationship. In the old days, a woman could withold sex until she had time to evaluate the guy, but now she has to work fast because society is telling her that she's uptight or moralistic if she doesn't hop into bed. That could explain the 3rd degree and demand for dinner and drinks, eh?
Anon 4:29,
Go click the link in the post where I talk about demographics.
Get educated.
Then pontificate.
I'll make it easy Demographics.
BTW there was no "sexual revolution". There was a significant shortage of men in the right age bracket.
Proof?
We also had a sexual revolution in the 1920s. Was that also caused by a permissive culture? Or by a man shortage?
Okay I haven't read the book yet, so maybe I'm not too in tune with how Norah went about things. But I see a big problem... she's a woman.
That means, even dressed up like a man, she is thinking like a woman and seeing reactions as a woman... possibly reading things into the interactions that are common to women thus she is more sensitive to them.
Plus - I have to wonder what kind of women she attracted... at least enough to go out on dates. There are many difficulties involved - it's not just putting on a different set of clothes, cutting your hair... etc. (a simple comment is not long enough to capture all my questions and concerns about this informal study she did)
So, while I applaud the effort, and if I can find time I'll read the book, I'm wondering just how valid the process might be.
"Where have all the good men gone?"
Either married, or paying alimony.
Phillep.
Since I've been dating/engaged/married to the same woman for 20 years, perhaps I'm clueless, but I don't get the sense women have become the evil shrews some are alleging.
The women I come in contact with at work, the gym, at the occasional community college class, ie, pretty much everywhere, all seem easy enough to get along with.
I think one problem is that some people approach dating with a chip on their shoulder, as illustrated by this posters comment “On the other hand, the plainest woman acts as if she is Helen of Troy…”. Going in with that attitude is like expecting bad service at a restaurant – you’re guaranteed to get it.
I’m also amused how guys will go on for days about the 100 bucks they spent on a “bad” date, but think nothing about blowing twice that much making a lousy bet on college ball game. I say be thankful. For a small investment, your getting information about what could one of the most consequential relationships during your short stay here on earth.
Not having read the book, I don't know what she did to disguise herself. But I can't imagine that she actually fooled anyone. Her insights may be interesting but I don't believe that she passed as a man. I think that part of it is a hoax. Maybe the book describes what she imagined would happen if she passed. And maybe her imagination is well-informed. But I don't believe this is based in fact.
Well, at least it gives a kick-start to a new look at male/female relationships.
I was divorced 25 years ago by a woman who "felt to much like one-half of a pair and not enough like myself" (a decent paraphrase, I think). She got the kids (10 and 13), the house, and other stuff and I got the bills and visiting rights.
She was, and remains, a decent woman and a good mother. I paid twice the state required child support, yet one month when the county misplaced my check (I had the danged receipt) I was picked up on a Saturday afternoon and held in the county jail until I could go before a judge for bail on Monday afternoon. When I produced the reciept the charge was dismissed, but in the meantime the County Prosecutor had attached my income tax refund.
Oh, yeah. She remarried within 6 months to her boss (after he divorced his fifth wife). I saw my kids less and less. She never brought them to me. I always had to pick them up from one place or another and return them. She sold the house below market when she married and I didn't know it until I got mortgage checks returned by the bank. (Oh, yeah, I was paying the mortgage on a house I didn't own.)
I started dating about a year after the divorce. (It's amazing how sought after a newly divorced guy can be, in my estimation.) It took about a year to realize I was dating crazy women. A clear look showed 3 possibilities: 1) I was attracting crazy women; 2) I was seeking crazy women; or 3) I was finding normal women and making them crazy. So, I quit dating.
At about year 5 I met a lovely, much too young woman who spend 5 years dating me before we married. (I'm still suspicious she's crazy, or why would she want to marry me?) We've been married almost 15 years. Just gotta find the right one, I guess.
I used to be angered by, but now am simply perplexed by, the tendency toward denial and uncertainty when questioning the behavior or women.
The first comment of this entry is a fine example. Challenging the behavior of women is seen as leading a war or inventing facts instead of being civil. Why exactly is suggesting women need work too considered uncivil?
It's almost as though the ability of critical throught for many women stops at themselves. They can critique others, but can't comprehend self-improvement for the sake of others. They can only comprehend self-improvement for the sake of themselves.
This Norah woman deserves a medal. Even if she's wrong, she's bothering to try to look into others' lives instead of just her own.
Note: and yes I do understand the first comment was left by a man.
herbm,
I am with you--Norah Vincent is at least trying to really understand what men go through--she says in the book that she realizes that she is seeing a man's world through her own eyes but her eyes reflect an intelligence and I think, fair view of some of the problems men deal with. If my blog were a forum for divorced or never married women to discuss openly their views about men--no one would state that this was a "war"--they would think it was a conversation. In addition, the women could probably say anything they wanted, no matter how mean or cruel, and no one would blink an eye.
Without knowing anything about it -- I intend to learn a lot more now thanks to your attention to the matter -- her image as a "man" on the cover of the book doesn't turn me on, big time. Again, without knowing anything about it, gak.
Women cannot stand the fact that men are FAR more creative than women. Further, the women simply don not understande the brilliant male creative mind. Because of this they attack men. The lollowing link provides a splendid example of male creativity. I'm sure many women would not even understand what went intos this brilliant piecs,
http://www.youtube.com/w/FART-IN-MY-DRINK?v=tYR2AV791Sk&search=hooked%20paranoia
John,
I preferred Our Crazy Hamster Dance. It was much funnier.
Jephnol
jrphnol,
I agree, the hamster dance is funnier but the fart in my drink has its own charm.
Lighten up people, you're analyzing the man-woman relationship to death. I'm 70 and I can tell you that in general women and men did not have these headcase problems when I was a young man some 40-50 years ago. Man and woman were designed for particular purposes; man as the protector, hunter, provider; woman for procreation, family anchor, gatherer. It's when we deny our basic purposes that we become neurotic.
Back to Norah, no way a woman can pretend to be a man and really understand what goes on in a mans mind.
Before I had to take down my bookshelf to make room for the PJM ads, I had Norah Vincent's book up there - having read an interview with her, it seemed to me that she really came away from her experience with some sympathy for men, and ready to dare women to face up to their own part in establishing how men and women are supposed to be. It sounds fascinating.
anchoress,
Hi, the book is really fascinating and a fun read. I learned a lot about how men treat each other in competitive situations vs. women. For example, Norah talks about how men tried to show her how to bowl as Ned and wanted her to be good vs. her school sports team where the women sabotaged each other or talked about how they would rather look good than be good at sports etc.
As a late re-entry to the dating scene, I have found that there is no shortage of women who are eager to go to dinner, a play, the symphony, etc, etc, etc. After a while, I started to evaluate them by a simple barometer: how much interest did they show in ME? I came to realize that the majority of them could go an entire evening without ever asking me a question. Sometimes, the conversation would be quite interesting, but it always centered on one topic: her. I would often find myself saying "good night" to a person who knew absolutely nothing more about me than she did 4 hours earlier.
Come on! Men have behave themselves. The following links to an intructive video about how a man should behave at his wedding. This couple wil live in wedded bliss for the next 50 years.
http://www.killsometime.com/video/video.asp?ID=388
I have to wonder: was she really getting a fair sample of the genuing experience? Is it possible that subliminal cues (pheremones, tones of voice, movement patterns) told her "subjects" at some level that she was not really a man, and created dissonance leading to weird behavior patterns?
Thanks, Helen - I've just ordered the book. Sounds too interesting not to.
Dr. Helen,
To each there own, butt I think the straw one sucks...or blows or... Okay-it just looked like it hurt.
Jephnol
Tender Caring Guy,
Yeah, on my wedding day we hadn't discusssed the cake thing. That was a mistake...
My bride was looking hot--the dress, the makeup, the hair... We cut the cake and there I was standing there, holding this cake in my hand. Then people started to chant my name...
Later, while her mother hosed her down in the bathroom and glared at me, I was just hoping to make it another fifty minutes.
When we finished therapy and watched the wedding video, she says, "Wait a minute, those are my brothers chanting your name!" Well, yeah!
Man, that was great.
Jephnol
I read some of the reviews of Ms Vincents book; an interesting subject.
a) I hope she has fully recovered emotionally. b) I do believe she could get away with being perceived as a man. c) I'm not sure she can really experience inner masculinity but I appreciate her trying. d)I'm quite sure I can't really experience inner femininity (despite 4 sisters) so it's hard to know.
e) I do think that being a "stand-up man" in our society is quite challenging. I don't know about the dating. I've been well married (not always happily) for 34 years. Thank God it has actually gotten easier. I've learned a lot from my wife.
20/20 on ABC just devoted the first half of their program to Vincent. Extremely interesting. Folks on the West Coast may be able to catch a later airing.
Interesting, as a Doctor I can understand much of the emotional conflicts sometimes involved in being a woman. Being a man is a whole other experience.
By the way, although she masqueraided as a man that certainly did not allow her to experience the thoughts and feeling a man experiences.
I saw this person on TV last night and I was enraged.
I am a female to male transsexual who has transitioned to and lived as a male, 24/7.
Putting on a costume, stuffing your pants and joining a bowling team is not living like a man.
Nora Vincent is a lesbian and in case anyone's never noticed lesbians are as a group hardly fond of or known for their fair assessment of the male gender.
As noted above, a masquerade does not equal LIVING AS A MAN, and from my experiences as a genetic woman who lived as a man (a gay man, by the way), most of what she said is tripe. Aside from the real possibility she's another James Frey, exaggerating her experience far beyond what it was, as noted above, she has no idea what it's like to be a man, or a transsexual transitioning genders and having the same amount of circulating testosterone as a genetic male.
For the record, the FTM community, which used to be 100% male identified, has in the last decade been totally coopted by lesbian 'genderqueers' and drag kings, the latter being what Nora Vincent was as "Ned." Real FTM voices on what it's like to become a man in every way but chromosomally are routinely ignored, censored and shouted down in gender circles because, unlike Vincent's supposed 'big news' about men (which is given with a healthy dose of condescension) it conflicts with the cant of academic "queer theorists" and politicized lesbians.
I know a hundred FTMs whose lives are more worthy of seeing print and being publicized than this WOMAN, including FTMs who have BECOME monks, become beat cops, firemen, construction workers, doctors, lawyers and civil rights heros. It's a disgrace to give ink to what is basically a publicity stunt.
...lesbians are as a group hardly fond of or known for their fair assessment of the male gender."
I'll have to take exception to this statement. One thing I've found during my entire adult life is that, for whatever reason, I tend to be have good, friendly relationships with lesbians. Maybe it's because the sexual/romantic possibilities are removed from the relationship and we can just enjoy conversing, etc., or whatever, I haven't analyzed it that deeply and don't care to.
I always hear that NOW is dominated by man-hating lesbians. Maybe it's true but I tend to think the man-hating is due to some psycho-social defect and not lesbianism.
But thru work, my family, and my social life I know plenty of lesbians and know none who have been hostile towards me or men in general. Now, for heterosexual women, it's a different story.
I have to agree with dadvocate. Although I'm not particularly keen on dating (see the marriage topic), I've generally gotten along fine with lesbians. And I get along fine with all kinds of men. It's straight women who are actively looking for a parter that give me trouble.
When I used to play on-line games, the guilds I ended up joining in EQ and AO had a statistically unlikely number of lesbians. In both cases, I didn't know any of the other member's sexual preferences before joining. I just thought they were a fun group of people. Of course, on the internet, anyone can be a lesbian... The few I met in real-life seemed genuine.
That said, I can see arealselfmademan's point, but there have been similar books by transsexuals. I've read one of them, though I can't recall the title. They didn't get as much press attention, but that's hard to predict or control. It seems like this book is getting press because of the betrayal factor. I.e. the author, who is presumably a feminist, criticizes women in a way atypical of feminists. Transsexuals probably wouldn't be in that situation.
roughbeast,
I also saw the NYT's review as well as several others. It amazes me how hard some of the "feminist" men who write these reviews struggle to make sure that no one dares think men have it hard in any manner. The salon.com review was basically similar.
There is no blanket with more holes in it than the blanket statement. Women and men are far more like one another (provided they come from the same culture) than like others of the same gender in different cultures. Much of the binary nature of men and women is fabrication, conjecture, and illusion. Billions of dollars (going to things like facial hair removal for women or body building protein drinks for men) are spent in creating and maintaining this illusion. Given this, to say that no woman could be enough like a male to fool other women and males is ridiculous. Women have often fooled other males and other women by pretending to be male when it suited them enough to do so. At least one pope was female. Many authors (men and women) use pennames of the opposite sex. Cross-gendering is common in online communities. This is nothing new, and it is rare only in the extent to which she 'passed.'
At a conference on legal issues involving equal protections of trans gendered people, I had the opportunity to meet many men and women who had transitioned to other genders or who had begun the transitioning process. Of these 40 or so trans people, I would say that only 1 of the male to female transitioners would have completely fooled me. All 3 of the female to male transitioners would have and one of these had not yet received a single medical treatment.
We make a mistake when we see human beings as only black or only white instead of a multitude of shades in the middle with very few representations in the extremeties. Likewise, there is a gender spectrum in which most of us are only at either end when we take great pains to be.
Hi Jim,
I love the idea of the book and admire Ms. Vincent for going in to look at men's lives the way she did. I think many people are reading the book and taking it seriously--she will help a lot of people to understand more about men's lives--you seem like a good sport about it--and like a good friend--regardless of Norah's gender.
Jephnol, I hope you and your bride stay happily married till death do you part. However, I have to tell you, of all the weddings I've attended, cake-mashing has been a 100% predictor of eventual of the marriage. (Note that the reverse is not true -- my sister and now-ex-brother-in-law did not mash cake in each other's faces, and their marriage fell apart anyway.). I think it has to do with mutual respect. Anyway, I wish you and your wife a lifetime of married happiness, with or without mashed cake!
Mary in LA, seven years married, cake not mashed
I just listened to the author on NPR and it was a very interesting interview.
Aargh! Left out a critical word in my last comment: "Eventual *FAILURE* of the marriage. "
Sorry about that!
希望大家都會非常非常幸福~
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