Wednesday, June 22, 2011

USNews.com: "One fifth of all men of prime working age are not getting up and going to work."

While this number may be accurate, I wonder how many men are actually just working "off the books?" This seems pretty common--and I would guess that as the burdens on employers go up, more and more people will be joining the underground economy.

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108 Comments:

Blogger Cham said...

Wait a minute, do people have to get up and go to work? What happens if they are taking care of other people, like kids and elderly? What happens if they have an income source so the don't need a job? Myself, I could be earning much more money but because I'm single and I don't have any debt the US government will take a huge chunk of what I earn. I have no intention to slave away to pay for everyone else and I'm not the only one.

Yes, there are a growing number of people like me that don't see the point. And there are a lot of people that give me a lot of attitude about my choice, especially those that think I should be working harder to pay for them, their parents and their kids. If you are one of them, get over yourself.

1:20 PM, June 22, 2011  
Blogger Peregrine John said...

My specific plan is to first shift to a job that (incidentally) isn't of the sort to get counted in such things, and then (intentionally) to go Galt.

2:05 PM, June 22, 2011  
Blogger DADvocate said...

Yes, there are a growing number of people like me that don't see the point. And there are a lot of people that give me a lot of attitude about my choice, especially those that think I should be working harder to pay for them, their parents and their kids. If you are one of them, get over yourself.

Well said. Here in the Cincinnati area HUD is trying to force Section 8 subsidized housing into middle class, upper middle class and damn rich communities. Why the hell should I pay taxes for someone on welfare or some other form of governmental assistance to live in a better neighborhood than I can afford to live in? Screw em.

Peregrine - A family member has a valet business. An excellent business to do what you describe. His business is small and he still helps park and retrieve the cars. 90% of the money earned is in tips of which you pretty much only declare enough to avoid suspicion. He has no trouble finding employees as there are plenty of college kids and young employed persons looking to make money in the side at a truly minimal tax rate.

2:16 PM, June 22, 2011  
Blogger ZorroPrimo said...

I'm working on finishing a novel I started a decade ago. I am fed up with the Employee #354,295.02 corporate approach to putting food on my table. Gov't idiocy and social/economic engineering have made middle-aged white guys like me the LAST person anyone wants.

If a badger and a marmot were running as GOP POTUS & VP in 2012, I'd vote for them over the blind-ass bow-toy we've got today.

2:31 PM, June 22, 2011  
Blogger Southern Man said...

A lot of folks that I do business with are, indeed, going "off the books." My brush-hog guy offers a discount for cash (and that's CASH, not a check); ditto for a small dairy farm where I buy milk and eggs. The first just doesn't want to pay any more in taxes; the second is officially "out of business" due to regulatory overload (she tells me that the expense of following all of the regulations would put her out of business in no time). I myself (a college professor) am doing more and more side work like bartending, which (as DADvocate says) is largely paid under the table. I find that a lot of teachers use their "day job" as a hub for all of their extra-curricular gray-market activities...

2:33 PM, June 22, 2011  
Blogger kmg said...

Some men are deciding to run Game and become Pickup artists, and just work part-time.

Thus, they stay in a lower tax bracket, and instead of using their surplus time to pay taxes that go towards misandric functions anyway, they do something more fun.

It seems to be an appealing choice for many young men. Be a PUA instead of working to get into higher tax brackets.

4:04 PM, June 22, 2011  
Blogger ZorroPrimo said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

4:31 PM, June 22, 2011  
Blogger ZorroPrimo said...

@kmg: I'm all for the whole "game" thing, but I somehow don't get the bridge between "Oh, what a lousy economy. I think I'll do something else to occupy my time," and "I'M GETTIN' LAID LIKE A FRIKKIN RABBIT!"

If becoming a PUA is the choice response to a bad economy, then I'm just glad a herd of African elephants isn't stampeding across this country, their trunks filled with Peruvian cocaine and the fire of a thousand suns in their eyes.

4:32 PM, June 22, 2011  
Blogger Ern said...

I'll be an employee again for a short time (an employee of a company that provides software development services on a temporary basis), so I'll be "on the books", but I do frequently offer to pay cash in return for a discount. Software development isn't, in general, a line of work that lends itself to "going Galt", but I'm happy to help others do so.

4:35 PM, June 22, 2011  
Blogger Helen said...

To All,

Great points. I wonder if men are "going Galt" at a higher rate than women. From my previous post on MA divorce law, perhaps it makes sense not to make too much as it could come back to bite you in a divorce and if there is no divorce, men can at least have a wife making more money to support their endeavors. I recently saw on the Suze Orman show a couple where the wife was going to pay back her husband's student loans. I was shocked that Suze said to go ahead.

And as for working hard to pay more taxes, as kmg states, some of men's taxes are going towards misandric functions which are a negative for men. However, I do wonder how this Galt/Underground economy will play out as time goes on--as a positive or negative for men?

4:40 PM, June 22, 2011  
Blogger Cham said...

The people that make out like bandits are low income earners that are single parents. Through the EIC they pay almost no income tax. If they own a home they get a discount on their property tax. Their kids get free medical insurance. And if they are lucky enough, they get a surplus income through child support payments.

I've had single parents say to me, "You should want to support children because children are our future". Whose future are children exactly? Not mine, I don't have kids. What these parents are really saying is: "Go get a lucrative job so MY kids can take a chunk out of YOUR pay."

4:49 PM, June 22, 2011  
Blogger scammer said...

I wondered why this hasn't been brought up more. My guess is that most writers and commentators in the mainstream media and the blogosphere have never worked blue collar jobs, where scamming the govt. is a point of pride. I collected unemployment insurance and worked for cash for years. Being paid cash for use of your car and/or tools is also common. Registering a junker for personal use and writing off your only functioning car at %100 on your taxes is easy to do. I work road construction and collect a pay cheque that is taxed like normal. I also have a haulage business on the side. When we're widening a road we take up lots of metal pipes and cables. I cut them up and take them in to the metal recyclers. When it looks like that business may be too profitable and I might have to pay taxes, I go to a different yard with a fake drivers license and license plate and pocket the cash. When we were widening a major street in a big city, I took home thousands of interlocking bricks and paving stones; the old style and quality that people will pay good money for. I now have a beautiful driveway and patio, and I sold the remaining bricks for a tidy cash profit. I use my truck and trailer to help people move, for cash. I have a small office in my house that I can write off against my taxes. When I buy fuel for my truck, I fill up a 5 gal can for my wife's car. I have a wood furnace in the basement that I fuel all winter with free scrap lumber from work. When my wife wanted to plant a garden in the back yard, I took home free topsoil from a road widening near a river. They were happy to get rid of it, and we've had a bumper crop every year since.
All of this is not me bragging about scamming the govt. Most of what I've written represents a lot of hard work. Some is clearly illegal. The trick is to stay under the radar and not be greedy. I don't do all of this all the time. If the govt. knew about the free bricks, topsoil and wood it would be a taxable benefit, I'm sure. Most working people I know do some of this some of the time. A lot of this may sound grubby to your readers, but I'm better off than some office Dilbert who grosses twice as much as I do. apologize for none of it.

4:56 PM, June 22, 2011  
Blogger Xiaoding said...

"Whose future are children exactly?"

We need a certain number of other peoples children, to maintain the roads, which we ride our motorcycles on.

Also, to fight whatever trendy war is going on at the time.

And, to make neat guns. Kids are useful!

6:06 PM, June 22, 2011  
Blogger Doom said...

If I could work, if I could get up to that level, I would. And I would do it off the books initially. But the real money is in on-the-books work, so it would just be to have a safe test run. My predicament is different than others, with health issues and an income which would be put at stake. I can't see why people would work off-the-books without a real choice. If there is nothing on the books, the off the books will have to do with a wife and kids or tech or other addictions to feed.

From much of the other comments though, I plainly see I am out of touch with things on the ground today. I haven't worked in over 20 years though, go figure. Well, from my stint in college, I did start reconsidering whether slave labor, even to just get ahead if you can, was possibly not worth the efforts. At least it seems as if engineers are short time employees, since expenses for keeping educated people on very long, with benefits, pay, and retirement, seem to have breached a breaking point making long term employment unlikely. I simply don't know at this point. Would I really want to travel from job to job, hoping to snag some little sh*t detail after another, to be let go every five years until I am considered too old to hire (perhaps I already am too old!).

I am, however, learning skills. Little ones. A bit of practice with a number of skills, if my health improves, might allow me to make quiet money if nothing else. The world has changed from my youth. The world went from psychotic to schizophrenic, I think? The upside to part time is that a woman who married would gain little or nothing by leaving. It would unbalance her fiscal leverage in the unfair field of "family law", should one decide not to be a PUA.

2:22 AM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger kmg said...

If becoming a PUA is the choice response to a bad economy,

Well... think of it this way : What is the best use of the 24 hours in a day that a young man is given, considering :

1) A 'progressive' income tax schedule makes the person working part-time better off than the 60 hour/week sucker.
2) A bad economy enables employers to squeeze workers to work more hours, work weekends, etc.
3) Game changes a man's worldview, and cures him of the belief that a high-status (long hours) job is needed to get laid.
4) Game takes time and energy.

If many women with good jobs become pampered housewives after marriage, isn't the exact reverse for a young man to work part-time, spend his time running Game (possibly sleeping with the housewives of cubicle slaves who are away all day), and otherwise keeping his time to himself rather than use it to generate revenue for the state?

Actually, Game is just a secondary point. The primary point is, now that too few women are suitable to be wives AND earning more merely creates a bigger tax bill, it is a natural market response that fewer men will have much incentive to work 60 hours a week (presumably to support a family).

4:28 AM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger mesquito said...

Normal occurence: The guy in front of me at the Quick Stop at 6:30 buys his lunch on a governmnt food stamp card, then heads out with the rest of the crew. I've worked residential construction myself, and many of those guys are are off the books, with a vague conversation about form 1099 to arrive sometime or other.

7:24 AM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger Lou Gots said...

One reason not to evade taxes by "working off the books" might be that it is dishonest and dishonorable. It involves lying, cheating and stealing. Of course that never bothered sh*t-bird, critter trash.

All the excuses for doing so stem from how evil other people are. I submit that we should look at our own goodness and honor. If others can make us evil, that would be evil indeed.

7:29 AM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger TC said...

My earnings used to be 75/25% book/off book. Now they're 20/80.

I can't afford the tax hit anymore, and neither can the vast majority of my clientele.

7:38 AM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger olympiapress said...

A lot of recent rules over online accounting (starting Jan. 1, 2012, you'll have to give really good tax info if you're accepting Credit Cards online, or else be subject to 28% withholding of your sales!), seem to be derived from the mild suspicion that, just perhaps, men who make up the bulk of online entrepreneurs aren't giving all (any) of their info to Uncle Sam. This withholding thing is new, and seems to have replaced the 1099-for-every-purchase thing. Or maybe it was part of Dodd-Frank. I only know the legislation sucked.

Now, I wouldn't know anything about online sellers who under-report. Really, I've been too busy trying to figure out if it's feasible to incorporate my online business in Belize, obtaining a new merchant/offshore account in Singapore, and moving my servers to Canada, to understand just what other online sellers might be up to.

/It will cost something like $1,400 to pull that off. Maybe $2k. And, err, won't be all my income so moved. Amazon U.S. + Apple U.S. are obviously still going to go on the books. Amazon UK, however...

7:41 AM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger JG said...

Don't outsmart yourself, Olympiapress.

There was private bragging and smirking among the American customers hiding money at UBS Switzerland that the IRS would never find it.

7:51 AM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger Wacky Hermit said...

About online selling: The reporting to the IRS of PayPal income predates Dodd-Frank. IIRC it came through around 2009-ish, or at least that's when I heard about it.

I'm still trying to figure out how I'll be able to get around that one, if push comes to shove and I have to take my business underground. Right now I'm totally legit and I sell nothing under the table, but that could change depending on how they roll out CPSIA (lead testing and content standards for children's goods), when they finally decide it's enforceable. If CPSIA puts the boutiques that I supply with baby booties out of business, I lose the wholesale side of my business; and if the rest of the economy stays in this "unexpected" slump, the retail side won't be enough to pay the bills.

8:10 AM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger Brian said...

A comment above accurately noted that working off the books is illegal and doing so makes those who engage in the practice no better than the worst of the worst.
This is true - to a point.
If working above board within an obviously broken and degenerating system that rewards the corrupt is the right thing to do what is the alternative?
Many localities have passed the point of being able to recover their governance from the corrupt through civil channels and many more argue that state and federal governments have too.
Again I ask, what is the alternative?
We're seeing it.
The trick to doing it right is to openly declare your intent and it's founding basis, stick to it and let the people decide.
I think we've seen something like this before...

8:18 AM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger nikrok1 said...

I was reborn as Nick Galt in 2008.

8:32 AM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger RM Waters said...

It really is all about the taxes. I have a good job in a low tax country. My tax is a flat 18.5% of what I earn after generous personal exemptions. The tax return is one page, about 15 lines. Given the excellent level of public services, I am happy to pay that level of tax. There's no resin to go off the books when tax rates are fair and flat.

8:38 AM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger JG said...

Where is that, RM Waters?

If you want to say.

8:39 AM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger Will said...

Moral hazard spreads like wildfire. You see people like Charlie Rangel gaming the system, you read comments from people who don't report their tips, you hear about welfare mothers who don't need welfare. Pretty soon, you realize you are the "sucker" for doing things the way you are supposed to.

8:47 AM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger geoffrobinson said...

I think you could have more insightful comments if your blog allowed for anonymous comments.

8:49 AM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger Helen said...

geoffrobinson,

"I think you could have more insightful comments if your blog allowed for anonymous comments."

Along with some pretty nasty ugly ones. The above seem plenty insightful enough.

8:56 AM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger future toothless bum said...

"All the excuses for doing so stem from how evil other people are. I submit that we should look at our own goodness and honor. If others can make us evil, that would be evil indeed."

This above comment assumes that paying taxes to evil people is good. Read 'Atlas Shrugged'. I am the schmuck that has the average job that sucks like a Texas twister and just pays the mortgage. The kind that obviously kills the joy of many of the people that work there.

All while the ruling class avoids taxes until it comes time to be appointed head of the IRS. Then my tax dollars, oh who am i kidding, 50 times what everyone pays in taxes goes to the expansion of government. Jobs much higher paying than mine and with a cushy retirement.

And you say, "don't be evil. Pay your taxes." You would have done well as a slave owner.

9:02 AM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger jms said...

You're going to see a lot more of this come 2014 when the Obamacare regulations kick in. Businesses with under 50 employees will not have to pay for Obamacare, while businesses with 50 or more employees will have to provide full health benefits for all employees or pay tens of thousands of dollars in fines.

Come 2014, businesses are going to start to either lay off employees to get under the magic number of 50 employees, and expanding businesses are going to construct a business model that allows them to hire exactly 49 employees and then stop hiring permanently. Getting a job is going to become nearly impossible in America, but the work will still be there, and will have to be done somehow.

I expect tens of millions of people to start working off the books. Not to intentionally cheat the government, but because it will be the only work they can find.

9:06 AM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger Cham said...

Xiaoding: Sure we need other people's children. But I can guarantee the work ethic and enthusiasm of any spoiled pampered American child will never ever reach the level of a hungry Mexican.

9:06 AM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger Randroideka said...

One of the key ideas in Atlas Shrugged is the need for a moral revolution. Under the commonly-accepted-by-nearly-everyone morality of self-sacrifice, the result of being moral is suffering and failure on earth.

"When you have made evil the means of survival, do not expect men to remain good. Do not expect them to stay moral and lose their lives for the purpose of becoming the fodder of the immoral. Do not expect them to produce, when production is punished and looting rewarded. Do not ask, 'Who is destroying the world?' You are."

9:10 AM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger LilyBart said...

I collected unemployment insurance and worked for cash for years.

I've got a problem with this. I understand if you want to work off the books and not support a bloated system you don't agree with - but this is fraud. You are taking other people's money that you don't need.

I know other people who do this and I hate it. Support yourself without MY money.

9:12 AM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger Mirwalk said...

@Will
I feel ya on that. More and more I feel like a chump. I am only 27 and it feels like everyone is looking at me to take care of them. more money for programs that will be insolvent long before I can get anything out of them. I'm looking at you medicare, maedicaid, and social security!

Is it too much to ask that I am able to keep the fruits of my own labor?

9:15 AM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger geoffrobinson said...

I understand. Just for this post it would make sense.

Besides workers seeking to avoid taxes, I've found that owners of small businesses want to keep people off the books. Why? Many times they wouldn't be profitable if their margins are low.

9:17 AM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger Doc said...

And, in all these comments, not a word about the only way to fix this: actually demand that our legislators follow the Constitution. As written, it is illegal according to the Constitution for Congress to do 95% of what they currently do, including vast swathes of regulatory agencies (EPA/OSHA/Dept of Labor/Dept of Education/SEC/FDA/SocSec/Medicare/Obamacare/etcetcetc). Follow the Constitution, eliminate all these. Watch business boom, workers suddenly in high demand, taxes drastically shrink, wealth spreads, freedom reigns. Welfare at the Fed level disappears. If any of the States wants to be idiotic enough to reproduce any/all of the Federal monstrosity, they may. Then watch citizens and businesses vote with their feet.

10:11 AM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger JG said...

"As written, it is illegal according to the Constitution for Congress to do 95% of what they currently do ..."

--

Well, you've got that Commerce Clause thingy.

10:15 AM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger Dr. C. said...

ZorroPrimo said "If a badger and a marmot were running as GOP POTUS & VP in 2012, I'd vote for them over the blind-ass bow-toy we've got today."

They don't stand a chance against the Syphilitic Camel.

10:28 AM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger Calvin Dodge said...

"Well, you've got that Commerce Clause thingy."

Yep, the ruling made which pretty much rendered the 10th Amendment null and void.

The Commerce Clause ruling was made by appointees of the the most successful American demagogue of the 20th Century (FDR), along with previous justices who the demagogue frightened into playing along with his desires.

This is why I say "the law protects NOBODY" and "there's no substitute for political power". Relying on "Five of Nine" is great, until that oligarchy decides that they like (or don't like) a law, and their preference then determines Constitutionality.

So you can - for now - refer to the Commerce Clause ruling as a justification for Federal overreach, but don't expect to convince me that the Supreme Court has the LEGAL power to amend the Constitution.

10:34 AM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger JG said...

"... but don't expect to convince me that the Supreme Court has the LEGAL power to amend the Constitution."

--

Well, you've got that Marbury vs. Madison thingy.

10:36 AM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger Calvin Dodge said...

All of my work is "on the books", but I can certainly understand the way people will justify working "off the books" after they see multiple examples of "taxes (Rangel, Geithner) and laws (Holder) are for the little people" in Congress and the Obama administration.

10:36 AM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger Doc said...

'Marbury v Madison' blah blah. Read the Constitution. Understand what enumeration of powers and the 10th amendment means. Anyone who claims that Congress is empowered by the Constitution to do 95% of what it's doing is either lying, ignorant, or in denial. The fact that the SCOTUS can rule that, e.g., that according to the Constitution every State is required to allow any woman to have her unborn child murdered at any stage of pregnancy should be sufficient to demonstrate that one ought not to blindly rely on prior SCOTUS rulings to determine Constitutionality. So never mind 'Marbury v Madison'. Read the Constitution!

10:43 AM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger JG said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

10:54 AM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger JG said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

10:56 AM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger Michelle Orwick said...

My husband is an engineer who travels a lot for work, and works from home when he's not traveling. He's asking to be transfered to a different dept that would allow him to work from home full-time, even though it means a substantial paycut. Eventually he plans to quit that job, too. His attitude about his job has changed dramatically in the last couple of years, and can only motivate himself enough to do the bare minimum to stay employed. I had plans to start a small business, but have given those up under the current circumstances. We're slowly going Galt. It does seem we have 2 choices right now - be a chump or a looter. We're not going to be chumps anymore, and looting is repulsive to us, so we're trying to navigate a third way. We've purchased rural property and if we can offload the suburban house, we'll have NO mortgage payment. While still working his day job, we plan on trying to set up a mini ranch. If that starts to produce even modest gains, he'll probably quit the engineering track entirely. We're in our early 40s and may be "semi-retired" in a few years, though living a much more modest lifestyle than before - the price for going Galt.

10:59 AM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger Will said...

@Michelle: You're about the same place my wife and I are. Can't stomach the idea of becoming a dishonest parasite, but can't support acting as host for parasites much longer either. So we're looking at properties with big acreage and lower prices, far from the city, figuring out how to disengage ourselves from this society and give our children a decent life. It's a shame--for the past 40 years I really liked the country we had.

11:08 AM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger quadrupole said...

It's more than just the taxes.

I make pretty good money. But roughly a third goes to taxes, and basically another third goes to responsible adult behavior (retirements savings, health insurance, other insurances, etc). So I basically takehome about one third of what I make.

What smarts isn't just the one third I'm paying in taxes, it's the fact that those taxes are paying to replace the responsible adult behavior that others are not taking. Basically, I pay for the same thing twice, whereas those who don't get it paid for by me.

This gets particularly rubbed in because I know guys who *do* work under the table and *don't* do the responsible adult behavior. My top line income is much higher than there's, but my bottom line isn't that much different.

What is different is our lifestyles. They work about 15-20 hours a week, and spend the rest playing. I work about 60 hours a week. They spend at least 2 months a year in a tropical paradise somewhere. I work until I can't anymore and then take a week off to sleep. They have basically no stress. I have a lot of stress.

Where the comment above about the PUA track plays into this is that it used to be that guys like me worked hard so they could marry well and support a family. These days those 'responsible adult behaviors' don't actually buy you anything useful on that front. Having a lucrative stable job doesn't buy you status in the dating market, it makes you boring.

So far, I'm staying the course, mostly out of habit. But honestly, the call of 15 hour work weeks and long tropical vacations is looking better and better all the time. After all, what is my hard work getting me but stress?

11:11 AM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger Doc said...

"But the Constitution...says to rely on SCOTUS rulings to determine constitutionality."

I quote Jefferson: "You seem . . . to consider the judges as the ultimate arbiters of all constitutional questions; a very dangerous doctrine indeed, and one which would place us under the despotism of an oligarchy."

Common sense alone dispenses with this fiction that the SCOTUS determines Constitutionality solely. SCOTUS justices may be impeached if they flagrantly violate the Constitution; if we were to elect legislators who were dedicated to following the Constitution, they would likely impeach most of the sitting Justices, and they would be convicted.

In the end it falls to the people. If we will wake up, we will survive. Otherwise, hello violence, lawlessness, third-world status, chaos.

11:21 AM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger dr.alistair said...

my ex actually reported my paypal activities to revenue canada after we split.

i ran seminars and took visa and mastercard via paypal so that i could promote and do commerce from my old website www.toolsforchange.ca. she actually sabotaged my ability to do work that benefited people because she hated the thought that i didn`t claim all my earnings.

and she got help with her efforts by a guy i thought was a friend.

her hatred for my attemnpts to keep my earnings overrode her thoughts for my role as a parent and provider for my children....which was where the money was going. soccer boots, bikes, musical equipment...you know, things boys like, that i thought would be good for their developement.

as a result of her interference paypal froze my account with over $2500 in it that remains frozen to this day.

some people really resent others their success, no matter how small. it wasn`t as if i was making millions, but she couldn`t bear the thought that i could spend time with my boys and ride my bike and work out and not have to do 12 hours shifts as a nurse like she did.

somehow i was a criminal if i didn`t just work, eat and sleep.

12:03 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger DADvocate said...

One reason not to evade taxes by "working off the books" might be that it is dishonest and dishonorable.

Is it? Or is it a form of civil disobedience much of what was endorsed by former Supereme Court Justince William O. Douglas? Is it dishonest and dishonorable to oppose and resist tyranny by whatever means possible? You need to grow up in your applications of values to the real world. This isn't kindergarten any more.

12:10 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger m said...

Folks, don't worry the IRS are looking for ways to find folks working off the books, or finding ways around reporting income or the value of tangible benefits.

Things like, monitoring websites and twitter accounts for key words. The scofflaws will be found and held accountable for what they owe and fines as well. If duties under the Health Care Law don't take up too many man-hours.

12:45 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger DADvocate said...

don't worry the IRS are looking for ways to find folks working off the books

Moving closer and closer to a police state.

1:16 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger DADvocate said...

The best way to avoid taxes is not to be one of the little people and be one of Obama's cohorts..

1:22 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger Jaafar said...

As to collecting unemployment while working off the books, that's just theft.

If you want to "go Galt," do it honorably. Stop giving AND stop taking. That will be hard unless you move out of the country, because somebody's still paying for the roads, the police, the fire department, etc.

1:34 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger JG said...

Michelle Orwick:

And you can't lift a finger to help with work.

He's still with you because he's hypnotized by the "chivalry - real man" thing in society. Sickening.

2:00 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger JG said...

There is a hotline to the IRS - if you report a tax cheat that turns out to really be one after (secret) investigation, you get a percentage of the recovered money. Lots of ex-wives call up, lots of burned girlfriends etc.

So frankly, I wouldn't be broadcasting it like a lot of you here are. You brag, you can get caught.

2:02 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger JG said...

"If you want to "go Galt," do it honorably. Stop giving AND stop taking."

--

Right.

If you take from society while you are doing some slimy thing to avoid taxes, you are a taker.

If you move to a deserted island and do all your own stuff, no one gives a flying fuck.

And we have women (here?) who are double-taking. Enjoying everything in society without working and (of course) without paying taxes.

2:09 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger JG said...

Either women are adult humans (which I think they are) or they are quasi-children.

If they can't work and can't take responsibility and can't be bothered - that sounds like a child.

If that's the case, then these children shouldn't be voting or holding positions of responsibility in government or business.

I happen to think that women are adults - and they ought to have the same responsibility put on them like men.

2:25 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger quadrupole said...

JG - Adulthood isn't a matter of gender. I know both men and women who don't meet the criteria you lay out to be considered an adult and afforded adult rights and responsibilities. If you are going to advocate for adult rights being conditional on assumption of adult responsibilities, it should be solely on the basis of behavior, not class membership.

3:12 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger Michelle Orwick said...

JG, I think you need to call your mother and get a dose of manners. How quickly you judge things you don't understand. You got PUA guy discussing the pros of "Game" and another guy collecting unemployment while working, and you unleash your judgments on me?!

Yes, when we had kids I quit working to raise them. I think I mentioned my husband was out of town a lot. The original plan was that when the kids started school full time I'd start the business (you know, produce value/create jobs), and as it ramped up, my husband could ramp down. Unfortunately, given the hostile environment working against new businesses, and given the dismal state of our education system (that we saw firsthand), WE decided it would be best for our kids if I homeschool them, which I currently do. And didn't I mention that WE would be trying to set up a ranch? If the hubby's still got a day job, don't you think I'm going to be contributing to that endeavor too? Or are women not allowed to farm/ranch in your misogynistic world?

3:14 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger quadrupole said...

@Michelle: Mad props for the homeschooling... frequently very very good for your kids.

3:19 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger JG said...

"JG, I think you need to call your mother and get a dose of manners."

---

No.

It is a message board. I am giving my honest opinion. I am not cussing you out.

You, on the other hand, are employing the ages-old "shaming language" of women.

Sorry, I'm immune to it.

Some people see dead people; I see women who refuse to work. That's what I see.

I know full well how they operate. If you even *talk* about getting a job, they find someone else, a real man, who will acknowledge that they *tried their hardest [bats eyelashes] to find a job, but a big, strong man wouldn't find anything wrong with supporting them for the moment*.

Lots of men think the same way I do, but most won't say it.

And to the few fetishist men who want a stupid, helpless sit-at-home: You are also going to be paying alimony when she does a silly-billy "ooopsie-woopsie" thing and fucks all the neighbors.

3:22 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger JG said...

Quadrapole:

You don't know if she home-schooled or not.

My experience in calling out useless housewives is that they all say that, but if you probe deeper, some mean that they helped with homework after school or something.

If she home-schooled: good.

3:24 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger JG said...

And THEY ALL have very plausible excuses.

The very fact that these housewives have such well-developed excuses leads me to believe that the husband - at some point - actually mentioned the fact that they should move their fat asses from the couch towards some kind of gainful employment. Otherwise the excuses (originally meant for the husbands) wouldn't be so damn plausible.

3:26 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger JG said...

How long would these women be with men who had excuse after excuse after excuse for not getting a job?

No really, how long? A Planck-Constant unit of time? A milli-second?

Answer: They would never be with a man who they judged *could* be without a job, because they don't ever want to have one.

3:29 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger DADvocate said...

do it honorably. Stop giving AND stop taking

Tell it to Tim Geithner and Eric Holder.

3:48 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger Michelle Orwick said...

JG,

Manners extend beyond cussing. Notice you say my situation is "sickening". You assume I lie and I'm not really homeschooling even though I'm the one using my full, real name. You have even already concluded I'm shtooping on the neighbors.

If not your mother, call a therapist. You clearly have issues.

3:49 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger ZorroPrimo said...

Michelle Orwick: 0
JG: +1

I've been reading JG's posts for some time. He's not a misogynist. I know misogynists and he's not even close. He's just insufferably honest and has no more patience for frivolous, dainty social "tact" than I do.

And dump the shaming language. It's really f'ing old, and the last I checked, there were no teenagers here for you to posture over with your sanctimonious, matriarchal tongue lashings.

3:52 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger JG said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

3:54 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger JG said...

"If not your mother, call a therapist. You clearly have issues."

---

No, I haven't concluded you are shtooping the neighbors, although some housewives do that out of boredom. I have no idea what you are doing, but I know that you don't work.

Your shaming language, unfortunately, is just going by the wayside. And it was so beautiful shaming language. What a pity.

I know exactly how women like you operate. Stop now. You can exploit your husband until he drops dead of a stroke from the stress. Is that not enough? Do you really demand respect from everyone in society, including some observer on a message board?

3:55 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger ZorroPrimo said...

PS: I think you mean "being schtuped BY the neighbors."

And if you're not Yiddish, the proper verb would be "boned," "railed," or perhaps "reamed" with potential prepositions like "from behind," "sideways," and "with bells on."

Just trying to be helpful.

3:57 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger JG said...

"Manners extend beyond cussing."

----

I can only interpret that to mean:

"You should not say what you see, because it's impolite. And I don't like it."

3:57 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger JG said...

PS: I think you mean "being schtuped BY the neighbors."

And if you're not Yiddish, the proper verb would be "boned," "railed," or perhaps "reamed" with potential prepositions like "from behind," "sideways," and "with bells on."

Just trying to be helpful.

-----

LOL

OK, I'll try to note that.

4:00 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger ZorroPrimo said...

That was directed at Michelle, who first employed the expression on this thread.

4:05 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger JG said...

"That was directed at Michelle, who first employed the expression on this thread."

---

I still liked your discourse - and I think you're right in terms of Yiddish expressions.

4:07 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger JG said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

4:14 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger Michelle Orwick said...

Obviously I don't blog here normally. I came to share my story of how my family is going Galt. I do not share your claim that I can't be taken seriously because I don't currently bring home a paycheck. It doesn't make sense for my family to be double chumps and at the same time give the full-time education and raising of my kids to a bunch of nanny-staters. Good-bye.

4:22 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger Harold said...

I work 2 jobs, and all my income is reported. I vote reliably conservative/republican.

Has an almost sister in law who was a reliable democrat who thought that taxes ought be increased on the evil upper income people. She didn't report her tips from where she worked as a server, not did she report any income from her aunts unincorporated cash only catering business. Of course she thought taxes whould br increased- on others. She didn't pay any.

And with a far lesser income, had far more money to actually spend then I did.

4:47 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger JG said...

Harold,

I have consistently said that there should be no income tax. If you have to tax people, tax people who DON'T EARN IT, like heirs (or friggin' housewives or bimbos who are given gifts or the like), but I realize the bulk of the money would have to come from a value-added tax (or national sales tax or the like).

I have no idea why no one seems to be in favor of that.

People who work should get their money. If government needs money, it should be taken from people who didn't earn it, or it should be taken from consumption or sources other than people who WORK for it.

Not even people here support that (is my impression).

4:56 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger Helen said...

Harold,

It's interesting that you say that. Most of the people I have encountered who work off the books are Democrats who believe people with any money should be raked over the coals and see them as almost evil. However, they seem to have no problem not paying taxes. They fail to see the hypocrisy, but then when you have guys like Geithner who do the same, maybe they think it's normal.

4:57 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger Weisshaupt said...

JG: My wife earns her keep in our household. There are no maids, no babysitters, no daycare, and no one to help her take care of our property house and school my children when I am off earning the paycheck. I understand that some ungodly high percentage of the women out there are as you describe. I dated quite a few, and my house is literally surrounded by the type of housewife you describe. I agree with Dave Sim and his Tangents diatribe ( google it)

But what I have is called a Marriage, and while they are becoming exceedingly rare because of the predominant type of woman out there, they do still exist and I participate in one of them. There is nothing Chivalrous about it. We have a partnership. I love having a help meet and dividing the labor, and my kids benefit from having both a mother and a father.

I am sorry you obviously don't have an example of such a thing in your experience, and you are the poorer man for it. But that does not excuse your behavior.. and apparently you need another man to tell you that as you are apparently incapable of listening to a woman.

I don't know much about your upbringing, but real parents (that would be a mother and a father) would have lashed you for making such insulting assumptions about people you do not know, and then persisting when called upon it. You don't need to put women on a pedestal or act chivalrously in order to treat them with the common courtesy of not making false allegations and derogatory insinuations on their character.

By calling her a liar, you have called me a liar as well. You owe us an apology. Take your isses with woman out on women who actually deserve it.

4:58 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger JG said...

Work is pretty much hard. Work is mostly drudgery. Work (like inventive work) drives progress into the future. Work is why we can all enjoy a great society and sit down and be served in a restaurant.

But income from work is being taxed more and more (income tax). "The rich" (I mean really rich - who don't have to work) see no tax. There is not much tax on consumption in comparison with the VAT in Europe.

I really think that's screwed up. Get rid of the income tax.

5:00 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger JG said...

Weisshaupt,

Oh, please spare me the histrionics.

If you support a useless sit-at-home, good, but don't burden me with your projections.

You are generating drama. Boring drama, but histrionic (hysterical?) drama all the same.

Spare me.

My mother worked except when we were under 5 years old and weren't in school. I respect my mother - I wouldn't respect some long-term sit-at-home.

5:03 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger JG said...

If there's a "division of labor", why do courts not observe that at all in a divorce?

In a divorce, the important thing is that Little Princess has enough money (alimony and the fictional "asset division", even if Princess didn't contribute a whit to the assets, and child support and other arrangements).

No one orders the ex-wife to make the husband a sammich or to pick up a little bit while watching Oprah or to hump him.

Bejeezus. And the menz still seem to survive, don't they.

5:10 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger JG said...

"You owe us an apology."

---

Apology ... denied. File an appeal.

5:20 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger Helen said...

JG,

I think that Michelle was just coming on to give her opinion about her family "going Galt." Direct your abuse at people who are actually your enemy and not just at people who cross into your sights.

5:21 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger JG said...

Helen,

Is it abuse or my opinion?

You are welcome to ban me. I've held back my opinion of you and your financial arrangements, maybe you should ban me.

5:25 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger JG said...

I personally think that men's early deaths can be prevented in part by a reduction of the stress of having to pay everything for some woman who refuses to work.

I think that more people will come to see what I am saying is true (as the recognition of men as actual human beings increases).

I try not to just curse people out or use ad hominem arguments.

But *poof* Helen doesn't like what I say. And I know what that means.

5:29 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger JG said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

5:31 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger Weisshaupt said...

JG: I didn't respond for dramatic effect. I feel your comments are insulting and childish.

Apologize or not.. who cares? Your behavior is out there for all to see and judge. If you aren't interested in doing right by others, its not my place to teach you how. But rudeness is not a sign of masculinity..its a sign of immaturity.

Its obvious you got burned and feel justified at lashing out at anybody, and feel safe in refusing everyone the courtesy that is their due in a civilized society. We got it. You have issues. But be aware that your world view is considerably skewed by your anger, and that there will eventually be real-world consequences to that.

I do think its rather comical that you have bought into the liberal feminist lie that women MUST work outside the home before they can be considered real people, or contributors.

I was raised in a single parent, feminist mother home, and as a result I was suckered by that lie for the first 10 years I dated, and ended up rejecting some very good, "capable of Marriage" women because of it. I eventually discovered that for women "Career Oriented" often meant "Self-centered" and "incapable of being a partner"

The courts don't recognize the division of labor because feminists took them over via "no Fault Divorce" laws.( which does often mean "its the man's fault" )-they wanted to enable the bad behavior you have seen,and did so by convincing women that work outside the home is exciting and meaningful, while taking on a traditional role is demeaning and awful.

You are correct that work is often drudgery. Cooking and Cleaning a large home is drudgery.Laundry is a drudgery. Changing diapers is drudgery. Doing the shopping is drudgery. And dealing with small children is stressful, as is placing the burden of their education upon yourself. Just because the liberal feminists look down upon that sort of thing, doesn't mean that its not work, or that its not worth doing, but by upholding that lie you are ensuring that most women will continue to be as you have encountered them.

6:24 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger JG said...

Weisshaupt:

I haven't been burned by anyone. I've lived with a few women in very long-term relationships, but I've never married.

You say I'm not interested in doing right by others: I'm interested in the truth in life whether that busts apart your doofy chivalrous man thing or not.

I haven't bought into any liberal feminist lie. Women today - whether you like it or not - are considered adults, so I am proposing holding them to that status.

The courts don't recognize the division of labor because women do jack shit in the household. Why don't men die when the court doesn't order the woman to make them a sammich or hump them?

Bejeezus.

I was single (not living with someone) for a long period - I cooked and cleaned and didn't die from it, in fact I hardly noticed it.

I honestly don't get the lengths that men will go to - to justify that the woman does something - anything - at home. Haven't you ever lived alone?

Otherwise, I'm not going to argue this anymore. Already done it. I'm going to lose because the hard-working housewife has to mop the floors three times a day etc. I get it.

6:32 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger JG said...

And I'm getting the drift that Weisshaupt is probably a woman.

Hardly any men (only the highest on the mangina scale) would defend sit-at-home women to that degree.

Hardly any men are that clueless.

Guess: Woman trying to justify never working

6:35 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger Weisshaupt said...

JG: You claim an interest in the truth, and I am just wondering how you have determined the "truth" about my marriage, given that you have never met us, and never seen how our marriage operates.

Just because your vison of the world doesn't allow for the possibility your "truth " could be wrong, doesn't mean the world must comply. You pronounce truth instead of discover it. Man up, stop playing the victim, and get over it. Life isn't fair. Never has been. Never will be.

Sure, women are adults. And adults can enter into contracts, right? The feminist lie you believe is that "being an adult" means "acting like a man"
Its that same stupid logic that says women earn 70 cents on every dollar a man does. It would only be equal in a world were women make the same choices as men. They don't. Women are different. Pleasantly so, if you let them be.

The Marriage contract isn't for you. Thats fine. But it doesn't follow that you need to disparage what works for others, just to bolster your own fragile world view. I cooked and cleaned when single too and you are right, its no big deal. Now do it with Children. Children change everything. Antother thing I am guessing is outside your experience, but which I am sure you know everything about. You don't happen to vote Democrat, do you?

6:48 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger JG said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

6:51 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger JG said...

Weisshaupt,

You win.

People who read what I wrote and what you wrote will decide on their own.

You and all other housewives who want to force their worth on others ... can win.

Jesus. I have to take a shower to wash this Yuk off me now.

6:52 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger JG said...

"You don't happen to vote Democrat, do you?"

--

No, Republican / Libertarian up to the point that I saw it didn't matter anymore.

6:55 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger Weisshaupt said...

Heh. Does calling me a woman make it easier to dismiss my viewpoint?
Why do you think that is?

I know the type of men, women and marriages you are talking about.
I am not one of them, and my contmept for them is as great as yours.

Is it really so hard to consider the idea that there might be other types of men, women and marriages?

I am not trying to force my worth on you, just impress upon you that you may not have everything figured out, and that the world might not fit into your neatly constructed boxes as cleanly as you might assume.

You might take a look around. My wife originally posted on helping me Go Galt. That means a decrease in living standards, and MORE work for her. We are going to try and grow and raise our own food. We are going to move to a smaller house in a more rural area -meaning more driving for her to cart kids around, go shopping, etc. She has taken on the task of learning new skills like canning, gardening, aquaponics and livestock care. All so I can quit working a stress inducing, soul crushing 9 to 5 job that takes me away from home and family. Why would she be supportive of my efforts to go Galt, if her goal in life is to sit on the couch eating bon-bons while watching Oprah?

You obviously have a serious need to believe what you believe, even to the point of calling other people liars if they bother to engage you. I wonder if even you know the reason why you can tolerate no dissenting opinon.

7:40 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger ic said...

zorroprimo: badger and marmot? Why don't you join Dr. Helen's husband to vote for a "syphilitic camel"?

scammer: taxpayers should be grateful to you hauling away those waste: bricks, pipes, top soil... You saved the taxpayers a huge bundle to pay union wages to politically connected haulers to haul them away, then another bundle to dump them on sites owned by politically connected slum lords, and you have ensured local politicians one less chance for grafts which they couldn't help themselves from doing.

Xiaoding: other people's kids are especially useful and necessary to secure me a comfortable retirement. Without them paying my social security benefits, I would be reluctant to spend my money now while I'm still young to relax in Mediterranean cruises.

7:55 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger Matthias said...

I own a four-plex in a "working-class" part of town. I put "working-class" in quotes because all of my renters are on Section 8 housing assistance, and as far as I can tell, 3 of 4 are able-bodied, yet somehow on disability, getting 80% of their rent paid for (recycle my taxes), getting their food stamps, and no doubt working something for cash on the side, as one has a BMW and another renter a brand-new Chevy...and a boat. This is, as far as I can tell, the norm in the area. Do I feel like a sucker? Kind of, but I justify it by again, recycling my taxes through their rent payments.

11:01 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger Harold said...

How did this become a discussion about housewives and their function?

But, to add my $.02, for the 32 years we've been married, my wife has had job outside the home for about 5 of them. The first two years, before we had children, and when we lived in an area where the local school district was near the top of the list of the 50 worst school districts in America. She worked to pay tuition for parochial school.

We divide labor. She does the typical housewife things. Laundry, cleans the house, cooks the meals (except breakfast- I make a better one), takes care of the kids, including taxi service to get them where they have to be, etc. I earn the money, mow the lawn, fix the broken things. The husband type duties.

These old fashioned type marriages like mine do exist and do work. I'm not the only person I know who lives like this. I don't know what the statistics are- but I know that the children of the people I know who do live like this are the children at the top of their classes, and who are never in trouble, except for spouting non-PC opinions.

11:31 PM, June 23, 2011  
Blogger ZorroPrimo said...

Okay, Harold...

Who kills the spiders?

12:29 AM, June 24, 2011  
Blogger george said...

No one is even bothering to look for work. When the economy was better I would have people come in off the streets about once a month looking for work. I always took applications and tried to reward the likely looking ones for their efforts by calling them back when something opened up.

Now no one comes by. It doesn't matter anyway. All of us small business guys are trying to get out before Obamacare hits. We have been in an unacknowledged civil cold war for a while now.

1:30 AM, June 24, 2011  
Blogger br549 said...

Michelle Orwick: You can't come in here one time on one thread, fail the test, and go away mad. You can't listen to Limbaugh one time either.

There are men and women who work together as a team who also happen to be married. You and yours (as it were) aren't the lone ranger.

So, get your ass back in here and contribute. Don't just come in hoping to say what you feel, what you are doing, and expect to be told how wonderful you are for doing so. JG has ripped into me more than once, as have others, and me him. I actually appreciate it sometimes.

6:18 AM, June 24, 2011  
Blogger br549 said...

I can vouch for what George says. No one calls, no one comes by looking for work. As little as a year and a half ago, we would still get stragglers walking in want to know if "dis bee da place tu do uh appucashun" in order to get their monthly check. That no longer happens.

The owners of this small private company have also bought into a few things. I now work 55 hours a week for the same amount of pay I used to get for 40 hours a week. And I haven't seen a pay raise in 5 years. Any mention of an evaluation / pay raise gets met with a psycological pummeling about being lucky I even have a job - even if I do save the company's ass on a daily basis.

6:27 AM, June 24, 2011  
Blogger DADvocate said...

There is work to be found. A friend of mine in his late 40s has a high school, isn't all that bright and is relatively unskilled. He is quite personable and friendly. He was layed off a couple of months ago, but recently found another job.

Finding a job at your skill level in your field may be hard (it would be hard for me), but there are jobs if you're not too picky. I have to believe that, with generous unemployment benefits, etc, a lot of people aren't very motivated.

9:51 AM, June 24, 2011  
Blogger Harold said...

I kill the spiders. And capture the bats, which isn't nearly as easy.

12:02 PM, June 24, 2011  
Blogger M. Simon said...

Michelle is not contributing to the dollar economy? Bravo.

4:08 PM, June 24, 2011  
Blogger ZorroPrimo said...

Harold! You CAPTURE the bats!

Holy $@&*!!!

You should put up a web site like these PUA guys. The frikkin Force is strong with you, dude!

4:41 PM, June 24, 2011  

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