Friday, September 25, 2009

"All Men are Pigs!"

This is the greeting I received at the checkout line at the Bearden Earth Fare in Knoxville yesterday. After work, I was driving by, had a coupon and thought I would stop by to pick up something for dinner. At the cash register, the women who worked there were congregated around talking, and finally after a few moments, the cashier started to ring up my order and stated to me that she had to impart her words of wisdom that "All Men are Pigs!" to the younger female grocery bagger. The younger woman, a petulant looking twenty-something yelled back, "Yeah, all Men are Pigs!" and started to laugh.

If you have been reading this blog, you know I was not a happy camper. I said to the younger woman, "All men are not pigs" to which she replied,"Well, they are pigs...but I guess not all are, some are okay." To which I replied, "I bet there is no way you would have stood here and said "All Women are Pigs! There is no way you would say that in public." Her response? "Well, we're all pigs." Great, so she thinks her customers are pigs too.

I could tell the older cashier understood that they had made a mistake. But after all, they were in their comfort zone. A health food store where organic food spelled liberalism and an intolerance for those people male or conservative. Grocery bagger girl quickly changed the subject to "paper or plastic." I stared at her as I got my bags and she looked at me with a mixture of intimidation, confusion and perhaps, hatred. I left. But I hope that next time these women feel free to play out their male-bashing meme at work in front of the general public, they will remember that not all of their female customers agree with the good old girl network.

Update: Earth Fare responds in the comments:

Dear Ms. Smith:

We are so sorry that you encountered this type of behavior in one of our stores. We respect all of our customers and are saddened that you had to deal with this sort of behavior.

We are dealing with the problem now. And, thank you for bringing this to our attention.

Sincerely,

Misty Faucheux
Social Media Manager
Earth Fare

Labels:

134 Comments:

Blogger Fen said...

Ha. What were the odds that they would encounter someone like you, at that very instance?

Well played. And THANK YOU for not staring down at your shoelaces. People allow all sorts of wickedness simply because they don't want the drama.

7:02 AM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger GawainsGhost said...

Welcome to the wonderful world of the American male, Dr. Helen. I've actually been on dates with girls like this.

She seemed nice enough, at first. But while we were having dinner, she launched off into the exact same tirade. "All men are pigs."

Wait a minute. You expect me to get dressed, pick you up, drive you around, buy you dinner, all so you can bitch about it?

In ethology (the science of animal behavior), this is what is known as a fixed action pattern. It's an autonomic response. Stimulus-response. The stimulus is the idea of the existence of men. The response is to bitch about it.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I've been saying it since I was twelve, first girlfriend I ever had. The modern American girl has a problem. It's a real problem, it's an attitude problem, and it's her problem. It's not my problem, because I know how to deal with it.

I called the waiter, demanded the check, paid it, and walked out the restaurant. Let her take a cab home. And never have anything to do with that sorry excuse for a woman ever again. It's very simple really. Do not put up with it, not for any reason, not under any circumstances, not at any time. Just leave.

If it had been me, I would have demanded to speak to the manager. And I would have asked him or her directly, do you expect me to patronize this store, purchase products here, pay this stupid girl's salary, so she can stand there and insult me?

I'd have dumped the groceries on the counter and walked out, never to return.

If more men were like me, the modern American girl would start to get a clue real quick, because no man would have anything to do with her. No one would call her, no one would date her, no one would go to bed with her, no one would marry her, no one would even talk to her. And then what?

Well, she'd dump her bad attitude and start conducting herself with some sense of decorum, if she didn't want to spend the rest of her life alone and depressed. That's what.

8:52 AM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger Thom said...

I wonder if they would have said the same had you been male. I suspect not, which just further proves their prejudice.

8:53 AM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger Cham said...

How is this different from the "all women are pigs" attitude in some of the commenters here?

9:01 AM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger Helen said...

Cham,

First of all, the majority of commenters do not call women "pigs" here. There are plenty of women who call men here names, so get off the high horse. Second and more importantly, if men here are hanging out at their public jobs stating that "all women are pigs" I would have no problem with a member of the public being angry or raising hell about it.

9:06 AM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger Cham said...

You would have been more effective with the grocery lady, Helen, if you had been polite but firm. You could have told her that you disagreed with her rather than going the intimidation and hatred route.

9:37 AM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger dr.alistair said...

the modern north american attitude is becoming secularised and vulgar. we are constantly acting out of a lack of respect for eachother and ourselves.

those of us raised with respect for others are taught to think before behaving in many of the ways that modern society sees as "self-actualised" or somehow "adult"...and this included calling all members of a certain group pigs, sluts or whatever.

if one is to expect to be respected, one must be prepared to respect others.

any schoolboy knows this.

and cham said some, not majority.

and she has a valid point.

helen?

9:40 AM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger Larry J said...

How is saying "All men are pigs" any less bigoted than saying "All women are pigs", "All blacks are pigs", "All muslims are pigs", etc.? Bigotry is bigotry. I'd take my business elsewhere and let the manager know why.

9:56 AM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger Fen said...

"and she has a valid point"

No, she doesn't. There's a huge diff between the bigotry of gender bashing vs complaints that society/law does not offer equal protection.

Imagine: "All Jews are pigs". Still defensible?

9:58 AM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger Fen said...

If more men were like me, the modern American girl would start to get a clue real quick, because no man would have anything to do with her. No one would call her, no one would date her, no one would go to bed with her, no one would marry her, no one would even talk to her. And then what?

Well, she'd dump her bad attitude and start conducting herself with some sense of decorum, if she didn't want to spend the rest of her life alone and depressed. That's what.


Paging Maureen Dowd. Echo? Maureen?

10:00 AM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger MagicalPat said...

An observation if I may...

Women I have known that believe all men are pigs, tend to be attracted to the 'pig' type, and create their own self fulfilling prophecy.

The women who believe there are decent men out there always seem to end up with one.

I know this is not a coincidence.

10:18 AM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger Sean said...

My response to this is? As you wish.

10:34 AM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger Helen said...

Cham,

The effective route would have been to go to the manager and demanded she be fired. I didn't do that. It was they who were haters, though because they are women, you will stick up for them and their behavior, no matter what.

dr. allistair,

The point here is not what my commenters do, though many are quite nice. The point is, the commenters are not my employees, if they were and said that "all women are pigs" to the public, I am not sure they would still have a job.

10:43 AM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger MiaZagora said...

All men are not pigs. I'm married to quite a nice one myself. To say all men are pigs is narrow.

11:58 AM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger Freeven said...

As a male, I have been telling my female friends for years the following: All men are pigs. The secret is to find a pig with a conscience.

Unfortunately, most do not believe me. They insist that this or that guy is not a pig. The thing is, I'm not being cute here. I do mean all, and I do mean pigs. Men must be civilized by society, and have their piggishness held in check through the development of a conscience. Women don't get this; they don't want to think badly of men; they want to believe that men are like them. They are not, and woman fail to see this at their own peril. Girls, find a pig with a conscience.

1:16 PM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger Quasimodo said...

"Imagine: "All Jews are pigs". Still defensible?"

have you read the koran?

1:30 PM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger dr.alistair said...

pigs with a conscience?

sure.

and i think a girl would be ok with that, as long as she was ok with herself.

we are biological entities after all and all got here the same way,and gain immesurable pleasure from the process, (well, those of us ok enough to be able to do so) and can seperate the act of pleasure from commerce, given the love and trust of a meaningful relationship.

but we know that the tpe of woman who applies that perjorative is struggling with isues of sexuality, self-image, etc. and is in no way going to be able to support a relationship over time.

and magical pat hit the nail on the head.

beliefs are things, no matter what the subject of the belief.

and helen, yes i see your distinction. none of us are your employees.

2:05 PM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger Doc Merlin said...

When women say like this, I "ham" it up for my own amusement.
Last time some woman made an "all men are pigs" statement in my presence, I oinked at her then winked. This was followed up with a, "You better believe it, baby." Life is too short, and chaos far too amusing for me to be angry with crazy feminists and their ilk, especially when they provide me endless entertainment.

2:15 PM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger Doc Merlin said...

I also have to agree with Freeven 100%.

2:16 PM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger Kimberly said...

I've always wonderered where the knee-jerk "all men are pigs" attitude comes from. Some of the most educated and most "progressive" women I know spout this line, and I think that's not always a coincidence.

The fact is that men and women are different, biologically and psychologically. The more women "educate" themselves to believe that all differences are socialized, the more they are setting themselves up for disappointment in their emotional reactions to their own behavior, and to the behavior of men. Rather than opening their eyes and judging each person on their individual merits, while keeping fundamental biology in mind, they assume that women and men should behave the exact same way.

Since this is never going to happen, they're left floundering for a reason why. And the most satisfying one, for women who have been disappointed and misled, is that all men are pigs.

And my reaction to that statement by a service provider would have been exactly the same as Dr. Helen's.

2:19 PM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger dac said...

I have taught all my girls that rule number one is that "boys lie". And their is no rule #2.

I have yet to have any other father disagree with me.

2:19 PM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger MagicalPat said...

I have yet to meet a woman who knows 'all men'.

At best, they draw their conclusions on a sampling of the two dozen or so men they've met.

2:24 PM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger William Kruidenier said...

Based on my experiences in the Charlotte EarthFare store, I wasn't surprised at your post. I forwarded the link to the EF feedback link on the EF web site.

2:28 PM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger Professor Hale said...

Related topic: the rudeness of retail sales staff. You aren't there gossip with her friends. You just want to pay for your stuff and leave. The gossiping is slowing you down and slowing down the natural flow of money into the business.

2:31 PM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger Jerry said...

I ageee with Freeven - "Men must be civilized by society, and have their piggishness held in check through the development of a conscience."

Unfortunately, our culture seems dedicated any more to the piggish, from both male and female, making a conscience as relevant as an appendix.

We're trying hard to raise the little guy with a conscience - at 11 he's pretty good, so we'll see what he's like in a decade or so...

2:38 PM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger Swen said...

[pious look..]
Whenever I'm confronted with a situation like this I always ask myself "What Would Al Gore Do?"

In this case I think he'd have admonished the women that 'No, all people are pigs, but some pigs are more equal than others.'

2:42 PM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger LTC John said...

Freeven,

Speak for yourself. I'm no pig. I suggset you avoid such broad brush, intellectual inflexibility in future. It does not reflect well upon you, or those rushing to agree with you.

2:51 PM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger Cha-cha-change! said...

After my divorce, the next 3 women I dated all turned out to be married. I decided after the 3rd strike against American women, I didn't count my first marriage as a strike, should've tho. Anyway, I decided I'd had enough. Now I have a Russian wife, who has 2 university degrees, speaks 3 languages fluently, very smart, funny, affectionate, and loyal.

She's not afraid to look, dress or act like a woman, in fact she loves being a woman. She loves being a partner with her hubby, not a competitor. She is completely shocked by the self-esteem sizing of American clothing for women. At the age of 33 she has to find her clothes in junior departments, and teeny stores. That is when she doesn't make her own clothes, which she is constantly commented on when we go out.

If not compliments, then the looks she gets from other women...lol Priceless! They look at her like "how dare she dress like a woman and enjoy it!"

Having said that, I'll say this. Not every American women is like that, I've known many fine American women, unfortunately they were married or alread spoken for. Usually by some lout, or 40 year old guy with the maturity level of a 12 year old.

2:55 PM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger Alex said...

Cham is a typical American female with a stuck-up sense of entitlement. Naturally she thinks Dr. Helen is the one who was intimidating and hateful rather then the clerk who said "all men are pigs".

Cham - better take a good look in the mirror!

2:56 PM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger Alex said...

Freeven - go take a long walk off a short plank. Go ahead and be a pig.

2:57 PM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger MzEllen said...

It's all over the place. a while ago I was in a book store and asked the young female clerk if they had a copy of "Save the Males". Her reply, "Why would you want to?"

3:16 PM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger Quasimodo said...

"All men are pigs" really means " a lot of the men in my circle are pigs" or " the man at the center of my circle is a pig."

The natural question is "What is it about you that draws the pigs?"

3:33 PM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger bmmg39 said...

I like all animals, and so if I ever wanted to insult someone I still wouldn't say, "You're a pig/rat/skunk/weasel/snake/cockroach."

Obviously, those women were using the word "pigs" pejoratively, and I give Dr. Helen a standing ovation for having the guts to stick up for men everywhere. You know why so many women say horrid things about men? Because they almost always go unchallenged.

And, Cham, you're wrong on this: Dr. Helen was perfect in getting up in their grills. A "polite" response of "Oh, heh-heh, don't say things like that, heh-heh..." wouldn't have gotten their attention.

Freeven and Doc Merlin: maybe you can go to KMart and see if they have any self-respect. You're both about nine quarts low.

3:36 PM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger Wyofool said...

Actually Dr. Helen, all men are frogs. (The frog and the princess or the princess and the frog)

3:58 PM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger Wayne said...

I will have to say that I disagree with the approach you used, but of course, it may have been the only one that popped into your mind at that point.

I personally think it would have been more effective, however, to ask, "If you were in a store and overheard one of the male employees say that all women are whores, what would you do?"

Of course, that leaves open the possibility that the person would not see their own hypocrisy, but if so, the other approach wasn't going to work, either, and mine just MIGHT keep niggling at them at odd moments and making them wonder about their convictions.

4:04 PM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger RebeccaH said...

Depending on my mood at the moment, how my day went, and whether I read much on the internet that day (I really should cut back), I would either have gone your route, Dr. Helen, and demanded: "So my father, my husband, my son, and my grandsons are all pigs?" or I would have simply smiled condescendingly and said, "No, I don't think so," taken my goods and left.

Young girls like that need a little smack to the brain to get them thinking that maybe not everybody thinks that way. If they've got the mental capacity, they'll eventually get it, but unfortunately, not all do, and I'm not sure there's anything we can do about them... except maybe retake control of our educational system in time to save the next generation.

4:28 PM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger comatus said...

First comment, best.
Thanks Doc. You're a peach.

5:09 PM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger Seerak said...

Men must be civilized by society, and have their piggishness held in check through the development of a conscience.

Speak for yourself, buster. And I do mean that for all of you who agree with Freeven.

MagicPat nails it, in spades. Men, just like women, come in all shapes and sizes, piglike being just one of them. Consider upgrading your prospecting methods and standards, ladies.

I've always wonderered where the knee-jerk "all men are pigs" attitude comes from. Some of the most educated and most "progressive" women I know spout this line, and I think that's not always a coincidence.

It's not *ever* a coincidence; the link is directly causal. "All X is Y" generalizations are an expression of collectivism; the Left is a species of collectivism.

5:41 PM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger jayemarr said...

What message is this supposed to send to men, exactly? It's ok to be pigs? Or go get a sex change operation? Or should I just go jump off a bridge to spare women of my awful pigness?

I agree, it's about equally stupid and repulsive, but altogether common.

6:23 PM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger JG said...

Kimberly sez: "Some of the most educated and most 'progressive' women I know spout this line ..."

------------------

Sorry to be Daddy Downer, but the women spouting this stuff are mostly majoring in really dopey stuff (read: brainwashing) and are not educated in my opinion. They just went to college a lot - usually paid for by daddy or some other man (i.e. hubby has to pay off the student loans).

These women don't know diddly squat about diddly squat. They can only mouth the platitudes they heard in their classes (myths and made-up statistics) - from bitter old bitches - and they have no real knowledge about anything in the real world.

Really.

6:25 PM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger paul a'barge said...

Doc Merlin: When women say like this, I "ham" it up for my own amusement.
Last time some woman made an "all men are pigs" statement in my presence, I oinked at her then winked. This was followed up with a, "You better believe it, baby."


You do realize do you not that this is a comment about you, sir?

I mean in your presence women feel free to engage in misandry and to insult you to your face. And in return for your protest, they double-down and shove it right back at you, only deeper.

What kind of man does that make you, sir? hint: the correct answer is not flattering.

6:57 PM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger paul a'barge said...

Where is Freeman Hunt when you need her?

6:58 PM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger MarkD said...

My daughters would never say such a thing. They seem to attract decent men. They were raised properly by their mother, who was born Japanese and knows how to be a confident and attractive woman in ways those dimwits will never know.

Your attitude goes a long way toward shaping your life. I expect la feministas to end up with one of "all men" or a cat.

I just wander around with this smile like I won the lottery. I guess I married well.

8:03 PM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger Tether said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

8:12 PM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger Tether said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

8:13 PM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger Lee J. Cockrell said...

Thanks for that, Helen.

9:00 PM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger Cappy said...

That's why I recommend Mike Judge's The Goode Family

10:19 PM, September 25, 2009  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

Tether --

Dude, he just got done banging his wife for an hour. Give him a break, he's in an endomorphic high.


Cham --

"You could have told her that you disagreed with her rather than going the intimidation and hatred route."

Doctor, self.

12:05 AM, September 26, 2009  
Blogger God Of Bacon said...

My experience has taught me that women, particularly women who could choose just about anyone to share their time and their beds with are attracted to men who are cocky, belligerent, cruel to their weaker peers, and self absorbed. They are equally repulsed by men who are least likely to date rape or otherwise abuse them.

I call this the George Sodini effect. More on this later.

I asked my wife about this behavior and she corrected me by saying that women are attracted to men who are confident. She, and other women I've broached the subject to appear to have no ability to tell the difference between a charming, abusive narcissist and a man who is simply self confident.

The best up-close long term example of this female characteristic I've observed began over twenty years ago when my wife and I were dating. My wife had a couple of best friends in college, one of whom had a brother and sister. When I was introduced to her brother I spotted this guy as a career asshole before we were finished shaking hands. He telegraphed his need to control everyone around him either through charm or intimidation very clearly. Later that day I asked my wife if Rich (not his real name) caused a lot of trouble when he was a child and a teenager. She laughed in a guarded manner and said something about him being "rough and tumble" and added in a disturbingly gleeful manner that "everybody loves Rich." I was bothered by the fact that Rich was such an obviously dangerous narcissist straight out of Hollywood central casting and no one else appeared to take notice.

That was more than 20 years ago.

A little over two years ago their mother died and left an estate worth several hundred thousand dollars to the three of them. The original will was worded oddly. It left everything to Rich and "any other children." Rich interpreted this to mean that it was up to him to distribute the proceeds as he saw fit. His behavior didn't surprise me but seemed to come as a shock to his sisters. The attorney handling the estate ignored his request, sold everything off and distributed three equal shares to the siblings. Rich was enraged and reportedly threw tantrums off and on for weeks. After all of the smoke and dust settled, my wife's friend rationalized Rich's behavior. She said that Rich had always had a "competitive streak" and because he was a successful businessman, it was natural for him to want to take charge of things.

I mentioned George Sodini earlier for a reason. I don't believe he murdered women because he was rejected. He murdered women because so many of them run right into the arms of the sort of men who enjoyed being feared by men like George Sodini.

Why are women so attracted to assholes?

6:08 AM, September 26, 2009  
Blogger br549 said...

I'm not a pig. I'm a dick.
I wonder if the cashier weighed over 200 pounds, was butt ugly, and had an IQ approaching 100 if lucky. A female can be pissed off about anything this day and age, even being a super under achiever, and it makes all men pigs.

But society needs cashiers, grocery baggers, dishwashers, waitresses, maids, and if that makes men pigs, OK.

6:09 AM, September 26, 2009  
Blogger br549 said...

Why are wedding dresses white?

So that the dishwasher matches all the other household appliances.

Hoowah!

6:13 AM, September 26, 2009  
Blogger Pete said...

How is this different from the "all women are pigs" attitude in some of the commenters here?

It's different, dippysquat, because a truly literate person realizes that such statements as "Women who commit paternity fraud are scum" is NOT the same as "ALL women are scum."

7:34 AM, September 26, 2009  
Blogger darrell said...

> I have taught all my girls that rule number one is that "boys lie". And their is no rule #2.
I have yet to have any other father disagree with me.

a) I disagree with you.

b) Simply because you are, presumably, a liar, and unable to imagine that other men are better than you, you are training your girls to suspect all men, at all times, and have doomed them to living the lie you taught them.

9:02 AM, September 26, 2009  
Blogger Lupus said...

Let's turn this around and let's see how the other side would react ...

All women are whores. It's well known that women use sexual favors or even just the hint of a possible sexual favor to manipulate men.

Hungry? Let the guy buy you a meal. Smile, bat your eyes, flirt ...

Bored? Let a guy take you a movie ...

Need a little security? Pretend to trade exclusivity for your sexual favor in exchange for the man working in order to provide. Don't worry if you get caught cheating, the courts will award you custody of his kids and child support regardless.

So the secret for guys is to find a whore with a conscience.

... Oh, and if you're fat and no guy will look twice at you ... call Freeven, he will take you out because he has a conscience or you can become a feminazi and announce that all men are pigs!

10:18 AM, September 26, 2009  
Blogger Alex said...

Yeah Dr. Helen. How attractive were the ladies in question. Inquiring minds need to know.

1:57 PM, September 26, 2009  
Blogger Adrian said...

You would have been more effective with the grocery lady, Helen, if you had been polite but firm. You could have told her that you disagreed with her rather than going the intimidation and hatred route.

Bullshit. Effective at what? All this kind of talk has ever been is an attempt to get people to lay down their arms. And, all it has ever accomplished is more iniquity through passive-aggression.

I have taught all my girls that rule number one is that "boys lie". And their is no rule #2.

I have yet to have any other father disagree with me.


Again, bullshit. And, make that another dad that disagrees with you. If you teach your girls this and to act accordingly, then the only men they will ever grow up to be able to keep in their lives will be liars. Even if they manage to find a sucker that's not, they will force him to become one.

3:30 PM, September 26, 2009  
Blogger God Of Bacon said...

Unattractive women suffer from the same fate as men who are less masculine than those around them.

They're rejected by everyone and routinely used as dumpsters for everyone else's threats, insults, and put downs.

3:32 PM, September 26, 2009  
Blogger Mark said...

Congratulations to those of you who are not pigs.

For myself, I know that many of my inclinations are rather swinish and that it is only my religious faith that keeps my behavior from being as bad as it would be if I listened to my inner pig.

4:40 PM, September 26, 2009  
Blogger don said...

> I have taught all my girls that rule number one is that "boys lie".........

I remember hearing some such line from a 7th grade sunday school male teacher to the girls in the class: 'don't trust boys. they want only one thing.' I remember my anger to this day. People who say such things including these clerks are projecting their own 'nature'... and simply not able to accept that there could be people better than themselves.

Best to challenge them just as Helen did, which is hard to be quick enough in the present moment to do just as she did. ...and let them 'wallow' in their own messes... of which i would assume they have many.

4:49 PM, September 26, 2009  
Blogger Pete said...

Well, Mark, some of us don't need a crutch to behave like reasonable human beings. But if you don't have enough personal strength of character on your own, by all means - whatever works for you.

5:01 PM, September 26, 2009  
Blogger dr.alistair said...

women are attracted to assholes because assholes are the alpha dominant types that women want thier children to be.

after a while though, the woman tires of the alpha, because he chases other desireable females as she ages.....

and so on.

this mechanism is the story of kings and queens, the rich and the famous and of those who live from hand to mouth....and all points inbetween.

with morals and respect and a code of honour men and women can live together in harmony, but first, as shakespeare said, we must kill the lawyers.

5:21 PM, September 26, 2009  
Blogger Adrian said...

For myself, I know that many of my inclinations are rather swinish and that it is only my religious faith that keeps my behavior from being as bad as it would be if I listened to my inner pig.

Which would you rather marry, a "reformed" whore that is only reformed because she is carefully monitored and punished if she starts acting slutty or a woman that never acted like that to begin with? Why do you think getting into heaven would work any differently? And, even if it did, then what would be the point of trying to be decent at all? It makes no sense. If I was a god, I wouldn't associate with humans at all, but if I did, I would pick them based on their character not on their sycophantism.

7:14 PM, September 26, 2009  
Blogger br549 said...

Just out of curiosity, does anyone really believe for one 5 seconds that freeven is really a male?

7:52 PM, September 26, 2009  
Blogger class-factotum said...

I was at a bridal shower where someone wanted to play a man-bashing game. ("Name all the awful things your mate does that start with 'H.'")

"I don't want to play this," I said. "My boyfriend [at the time, now my husband] is a great guy."

The game lady looked shocked. Good grief.

8:55 PM, September 26, 2009  
Blogger Mark said...

Congratulations on being a superior human being, Pete.

Not all of us are as wonderful as you are.

9:28 PM, September 26, 2009  
Blogger Doom said...

Thank you. I am sure, as a therapist, you understand that what goes around comes around most literally quite often. By blessing men, you raise yourself among them, and with them together toward a 'higher place'.

Thanks again.

10:16 PM, September 26, 2009  
Blogger Alex said...

Thank you. I am sure, as a therapist, you understand that what goes around comes around most literally quite often. By blessing men, you raise yourself among them, and with them together toward a 'higher place'.

Are you kidding? Among modern feminism to bless a man is a treasonous act.

10:25 PM, September 26, 2009  
Blogger Goresh said...

"I've always wonderered where the knee-jerk "all men are pigs" attitude comes from."

It comes from women's lib.
In the beginning they had a very good point. Women WERE repressed, women WERE denied the vote, women often WERE trapped in abusive relationships etc etc.
There is still a long way to go to address a lot of these problems.
Women's lib however has been telling generations of women that all women's problems are the fault of men and that women shouldn't shoulder any of the responsibility.

The sad fact is that women have been willing accomplices in their own repression.

5:15 AM, September 27, 2009  
Blogger Goresh said...

"I have taught all my girls that rule number one is that "boys lie". And their is no rule #2."

And no woman has ever spoken less than the full truth?

One of the differences I have noted between the sexes is that men far less commonly stick the knife into their "mates" behind their backs
Saying one thing to a persons face and another behind their back is in my book the worst kind of lie.

5:22 AM, September 27, 2009  
Blogger Goresh said...

"Now I have a Russian wife"

So do I.
One of the first things the communists did was legislate equality for women there.
Since before the first world war, women have been (technically at least) equal to men. As a consequence, the women's lib movement simply had nothing to offer Russian women and it never got a foothold.
My Russian wife is very strong willed and has her say on just about everything.
She is also very intelligent, a doctor qualified in two specialties so I have certainly found it worthwhile listening to what she has to say.
We don't always do it her way, but we don't always do it mine either.
Our shared view of the perfect marriage is a partnership of two very different equals.

5:33 AM, September 27, 2009  
Blogger class-factotum said...

men far less commonly stick the knife into their "mates" behind their backs

No. Men will let you see them coming. :)

So do these women think Obama is a pig? Oh, that would cause some consternation.

9:59 AM, September 27, 2009  
Blogger Sebastian said...

You all need to find something better to do than look at a computer screen all day long especially when the matter at hand is something as mindless as this. Really, of all the causes is this world to be concerned with...give me a break.

Dr. Helen, I am sure these women do not represent Earth Fare as a whole. If your experience there was so bad there, go back to Kroger, Food City, Fresh Market, or other area-grocery. While you are there, I hope you enjoy the high-fructose corn syrup and all the other garbage you will be consuming with your purchases. Bon Appétit!

12:56 PM, September 27, 2009  
Blogger Fen said...

So Sebastian..."of all the causes in this world to be concerned with"... you chose to post about high-fructose corn syrup? Really?

1:01 PM, September 27, 2009  
Blogger Sebastian said...

Fen,
Have you ever heard of diabetes or obesity? In case you missed it, more and more studies show links between the two and high-fructose corn syrup consumption. These are things that concern me. Not some petty, petty comments made by a couple of low-level employees at a healthy and good grocery store whose mission is to eliminate such garage from our diets.

1:19 PM, September 27, 2009  
Blogger Fen said...

The "petty comments" are indicative of a greater problem.

petty comments made by a couple of low-level employees at a healthy and good grocery store whose mission is to eliminate such garage from our diets.

And whats with the Indulgence? Your value system excuses bad behavior soley because the perp also engages in some good behaviors? We've seen that already - the murder of Mary Jo is excuse because the perp "dedicated" his career to helping the poor? Please.

Its appears your motivation here is that your "cause" [high-fructose corn syrup] is being maligned by an association with a few male-bashing bigots [hint: its not]. And so you take it out on Dr Helen for spotlighting it.

Curious thought pattern...

1:29 PM, September 27, 2009  
Blogger bmmg39 said...

Sebastian: "You all need to find something better to do than look at a computer screen all day long especially when the matter at hand is something as mindless as this. Really, of all the causes is this world to be concerned with...give me a break."

-- and yet you took the time to comment on just how "mindless" it is, you hypocrite.

1:56 PM, September 27, 2009  
Blogger bmmg39 said...

And thank you, class_factotum, for refusing to play the male-bashing game. It's both funny and infuriating that the game's author was shocked at your refusal; I imagine if she had found out about a "name all the things your wife/girlfriend does to p--- you off" game, she'd be outraged.

1:58 PM, September 27, 2009  
Blogger MarkyMark said...

Is there any way to ban Cham?! She's a waste of oxygen!

4:57 PM, September 27, 2009  
Blogger JG said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

5:09 PM, September 27, 2009  
Blogger Fen said...

I still have this image of a Soros-funded front directing paid activists: "you two go disrupt Althouse, you head over to Dr Helen and run each thread off the rails, etc. Here are your talking points"

9:34 PM, September 27, 2009  
Blogger Chuck Pelto said...

TO: Dr. Helen, et al.
RE: All Men are 'Pigs'?

One of these days—and probably sooner than later—women of this sort are going to be desperately looking around for one of those 'pigs' to protect them from the Reavers.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Shiney! Let's be good guys!]

9:51 PM, September 27, 2009  
Blogger Chuck Pelto said...

P.S. Or maybe from the current day version of the Alliance's version of Men In Black....two-by-two, hands-of-blue.....

"Old men covered in blood. It never touched them, but they're drowning in it." -- River Tam

10:00 PM, September 27, 2009  
Blogger Casey said...

Why ban Cham? I frequently disagree with her, but she's no troll.

12:22 AM, September 28, 2009  
Blogger Topher said...

"Consider upgrading your prospecting methods and standards, ladies."

Seerak and God of Bacon are onto something that's puzzled the young male world forever - the attraction of women to rank narcissists, control freaks and generally awful men. I get a lot of excuses like "that's what women like" or "you can't help who you love," but I believe you _can_ help what you are attracted to, if you want to actually be happy.

Like others here, I also find that the "men are pigs" crowd tends to only date good-looking guys they meet at bars, clubs, debutante balls, or other nests of fantasy where real people aren't on display. Incidentally, they meet piggish men and their stereotype continues.

I've often said that to be a politician is to be a damaged personality, because the demands of a Congressional or presidential position are beyond the capacities of a well-adjusted middle class person. I find many 20-something women I know are looking for only that kind of damaged personality.

Going to the club isolates certain things - how well you dress, willingness to spend money, and social dominance in a competitive environment. If you're a young-adult girl, these are good for a quick, cheap high (you get to be part of his entourage, he'll show you a good time with his $$, your girlfriends will be jealous) but we all know he's not long-term mate material.

-It just blows my mind that these girls expect they will have a functional "relationship"
(or maybe they are preemptively planning on "changing" him from a club-crawler to a Sunday-bruncher.)

-I may have a prejudice of my own, but when I meet women who only do two things, work their job and go out to drink/go to clubs, I am turned off...I have lots of hobbies and outside interests, and when I meet someone who doesn't do any real personal development in their spare time I presume it's someone who has an empty mind, or someone who needs to leech their worth off of someone else and uses their spare time to try to recruit that someone else. (Note: I'm fairly type-A so I am always keeping my hands busy. I understand many people can enjoy idle "downtime" without it being a personal shortcoming.)

-I met my lady friend, a great woman so far, on match.com; I was struck by the high number of women whose profiles said something like "I joined this because I'm tired of meeting guys at bars." In many cases they weren't - they wanted the same douchy "alpha male" guys, they were just tired of being out-competed in the field and hoped the online route would give them an entry point. Their profiles were dead giveaways for vapidity and materialism.

-Unfortunately, some women have swing their pendula the other way, criminalized masculinity, and gone for metrosexual men. This causes the manipulative asshole men to dress up as metros, because they go where the girls are.

8:54 AM, September 28, 2009  
Blogger Fen said...

they wanted the same douchy "alpha male" guys

That dovetails with my experience. So many women complaining about men, insisting that they just want a "nice guy", then being drawn back into the same group of asshats. Round and round they go.

9:20 AM, September 28, 2009  
Blogger Alex said...

Actually there is nothing wrong with women wanting "alpha male" types. Historically speaking this has been very good for survival.

9:21 AM, September 28, 2009  
Blogger Fen said...

Its not the need for Alpha's thats in question, its the constant harping about choosing one.

9:50 AM, September 28, 2009  
Blogger Topher said...

"Actually there is nothing wrong with women wanting "alpha male" types. Historically speaking this has been very good for survival."

The problem as I see it is not the desire for a 'man's man,' it's the blanket stereotyping of any slick, socially-dominant narcissist as an 'alpha male' even when he poses a physical (violence, microbes down there) or psychological danger to the woman who wants him. Anyone who read Neil Strauss' "The Game" (I got a free copy because he was on a radio show I was a panelist on) understands how many of the pickup-artist types are disordered people who have created pickup performance systems to satisfy a deep-seated need for approval.

There are PLENTY of assertive, successful men who refuse to play the frat-guy one-up game at the clubs. If these girls wanted one they could have him. I think we've entered this unhinged fantasy period of society where anything less than your perfect ideal is not worthy of consideration. This also goes for men who only want to date supermodel-hot girls.

10:18 AM, September 28, 2009  
Blogger Earth Fare said...

Dear Ms. Smith:

We are so sorry that you encountered this type of behavior in one of our stores. We respect all of our customers and are saddened that you had to deal with this sort of behavior.

We are dealing with the problem now. And, thank you for bringing this to our attention.

Sincerely,

Misty Faucheux
Social Media Manager
Earth Fare

10:25 AM, September 28, 2009  
Blogger Topher said...

Misty,

Thank you for your comment. I appreciate when a manager expresses concern to the customer about an employee's mistake.

11:26 AM, September 28, 2009  
Blogger bmmg39 said...

Yes, thank you, for addressing this with your company.

11:38 AM, September 28, 2009  
Blogger Adrian said...

Well, more specifically, the "alpha male type" isn't really the alpha male. They are just hucksters scamming women. As a rule, they aren't socially dominant. The only way it is even plausible to say such a thing is specifically limiting yourself to the dating game. True social dominance also translates to material wealth, career success, and so on. People like that don't troll bars for chicks. They are usually older, married family men who have joined polite society. They really are socially dominant because they don't go around to clubs and stuff like that but rather because they dominate in some other place like a corporate office environment consisting of both men and women and on a completely different basis than simple sex appeal. Their dominance leads to wealth and control over other people's lives not just a raucous night of sex (which they can easily procure).

11:52 AM, September 28, 2009  
Blogger Topher said...

Adrian,

I have tried to make a similar point with my girlfriend. Her friends are in the get-guys-at-bars phase. She playfully chides me for being stingy (which I am) and I respond that the young guys buying drinks for the girls at the bar could be out of money before they know it; I don't have a lot of money, but I sure ain't gonna blow it on overpriced drinks and cover charges.

12:32 PM, September 28, 2009  
Blogger class-factotum said...

Why do some women want Bad Boys? Because they want them to be good just for them. And some men want Good Girls to be bad just for them.

So I've heard.

2:39 PM, September 28, 2009  
Blogger Helen said...

Misty Faucheux,

Thanks so very much for responding to my post. It certainly makes me think highly of your stores and service --that you are willing to address customer complaints. Thanks, Helen Smith

2:48 PM, September 28, 2009  
Blogger Skyler said...

It all seems much ado about nothing.

Can you really believe that the business tolerated truly bigoted statements?

I think intolerance for immature outbursts has gone too far in this country. I would chalk this up to a few people having a bit of frustration and trying to laugh it off.

You were there, not me, so perhaps it's more serious than I imagine, but I find it hard, as a man, to get really offended by such blatantly silly statements.

But I agree with the first poster, If I were on a first date with a woman that called me a pig, I'd probably do the same thing.

10:10 PM, September 28, 2009  
Blogger Omnibus Driver said...

Ah, phooey. All men are not pigs and all women are not bitches. The good folks on this earth just happen to get lost in the shadows of really bad behavior on the part of both sexes.

10:26 PM, September 28, 2009  
Blogger M. Simon said...

The store could provide a service through renaming:

Earth Unfair - Get Over It
Living food.

10:56 PM, September 28, 2009  
Blogger Mouse said...

I'm sure the women didn't actually believe that all men are pigs. It's just something they and their friends say. A lot. They don't even realize the implications.

It reminds me of jokes about prison rape. When you actually look at the joker and ask them if they really do think torture and brutality are the funny side of the prison system, they think twice.

Good for you, Dr. Helen, for pointing out to them that they're perpetuating a harmful stereotype.

11:19 PM, September 28, 2009  
Blogger tom swift said...

The verdict is perhaps too harsh. "Men are pigs" is just shorthand for the simple observation that men aren't much like women. This should be obvious, but one of the central tenets of '70s feminism was (and still is) that the differences between the sexes are artificial. The modern phrase is "social construct." It's still hooey. The first step toward realization that it's hooey is the observation that "men are pigs." Understanding that that might, after all, be a good thing, comes later.

11:40 PM, September 28, 2009  
Blogger Frogwatch said...

When my 18 yr old daughter asked my advice on boyfriends (a miracle, I admit), I told her not to trust what young men said cuz when I was that age I'd say anything to get in a girls pants. She looked shocked and replied, "You acted like that too?"

12:20 AM, September 29, 2009  
Blogger claunchs said...

First off, what do we mean when we call men, or women, pigs? Does this refer to cheating? Being turned on by someone other than your spouse or S.O.? Just noticing someone's attractiveness? All people are sexual, so are all people pigs?

And for the bozos who've jumped in to reiterate the "all men are pigs" line, speak for yourselves dickwads. Some of us love the women in our lives and do whatever we can to treat them like we do. Some of us make sure our wife's marriage is clean and loving and wonderful. You who have yoked yourselves with the pig label - you'll never have women in your lives that will be able to say that. They'll have to say they're with a pig, and you'll have to agree that you're with a woman who chose a pig. That should make her feel lovely. Pigs.

12:42 AM, September 29, 2009  
Blogger Daniel said...

Helen, as I am sure you know people's comments are most often clues to their states of mind, rather than statements to be taken as claims for literal truth.
A woman stating that all men are pigs is really expressing her own dissatisfaction with her relations with the opposite sex, in a manner that suggests those relations are not going to improve soon.
At best she is trying to get those thoughts out of her system by voicing them; at worst she is seeking lesbian contact.
The correct absurdist response is: "You say that President Obama is a pig? You are a racist insect!"

12:43 AM, September 29, 2009  
Blogger bmmg39 said...

Frogwatch: "When my 18 yr old daughter asked my advice on boyfriends...I told her not to trust what young men said cuz when I was that age I'd say anything to get in a girls pants."

Okay, but when I was 18 I WASN'T doing that. I still don't. Neither do a lot of other guys. So let's all drop the stereotypes.

1:48 AM, September 29, 2009  
Blogger AST said...

Red Green's "Man's Prayer"

"I'm a man,
But I can change,
If I have to,
I guess."

I really am a pig, but it's mostly because I keep reading Instapundit, with his links to stories about
"10 minutes a day of ogling women’s breasts by men was as good at warding off heart disease, high blood pressure and stress as 30 minutes of aerobic exercise" and how we only have a finite supply of willpower.

These days I don't have enough will power to spend that much time ogling women's breasts. I still watch football though, while I'm reading blogs..

2:25 AM, September 29, 2009  
Blogger Brian said...

Well, the thing I have always found interesting is that once you get down to it the following is true: Pigs and Whores attract each other, decent people attract each other.

Some women complain that all men are pigs and they rant and rave that all the men they date only want to get in their pants after buying them stuff. Those very same women let their pants down in return for some purchase towards themselves (and those men complain that all women are whores but seek to purchase everyone female they have romantic interest in). They ultimately compliment each other in a not-so-healthy way.

Neither will attract - at least for long - a decent person because their entire being is centered around an axiom that men buy sex and women sell it. As such, in their world, that is true. When they encounter those that are decent and they leave/disengage they automatically assume the price for sex was too high, not that the person wasn't playing that game.

There are even long term relationships built on this - oddly enough. I've never seen any that seem truly happy, just ones that are less unhappy than the alternatives, but some people live their whole lives this way.

Sadly much of our television reinforces this idea. I've gotten to where I can not watch many programs I used to enjoy as I note the inherent biases displayed in them. The male is overly obsessed with sex and at the end of the show almost always some magical item/act (which usually has nothing to do with real love/devotion) gains him that act.

It cheapens both the sexes IMO, indeed while it overtly pounds the male more I think the relegation to the female being "The Whore" is even worse. They may try (and do) portray the female as more virtuous in that she initially fights it, at the end of the day she traded sex for money and stability and the guy "won" (as much as you can with your wife gladly exchanging sex for money).

And, the last thing I will say, is that most people are still decent humans. Even with all we see out there, all the examples that pop up, people are still mostly decent. Most men aren't pigs and most women aren't whores. It's just that those two classes tend to be loud about it when we meet them in everyday life and have an undue majority in television/media.

3:04 AM, September 29, 2009  
Blogger Patrick said...

I suppose everyone who's claiming to never have been a pig or a whore had a moment or 7 where they let their self-imposed standards slide. Nobody's perfect. I know I've been a douche sometimes, but at least I try to not be one.

5:46 AM, September 29, 2009  
Blogger Jamie said...

One for Sebastian, up-thread: These were grocery-store employees. You know the kinds of things you can buy at a grocery store that you'd perhaps rather not have people notice? Well-trained clerks DO NOT NOTICE them - in fact, grocery clerks typically comment on NOTHING the customer buys. How does the behavior of these employees speak for their training and their store's tolerance of their possibly embarrassing customers by their loose lips?

(Let it be known that the store's response indicates that the store does NOT want clerks to go around making personal comments in front of customers. Good on you, store.)

And one for me: I have two sons and a daughter to help navigate through adolescence (one boy is on the verge right now); my hope is that I can imbue all three with a sense of their own worth strong enough to keep them from disrespecting themselves or others - but I only get this one shot at each of them. Experienced parents, what SHOULD I tell my sons and my daughter?

7:08 AM, September 29, 2009  
Blogger AngelEyesGBU said...

Speaking as a man who's often embarrassed by his own fellow men, my own humble opinion: "All men are pigs some of the time, some men are pigs all of the time, but male behavior is more closely correlated with that of dogs than that of pigs. Dogs can be playful, affectionate, loyal, protective, ... but also messy, stinky, territorial, aggressive, and willing to hump your leg if no better alternative is available."

8:20 AM, September 29, 2009  
Blogger Amy Alkon said...

Hi, Dr. Helen -- blogged this. Love that you spoke up -- although I'm not surprised.

Like the reader of my advice column from the other day who attacked my looks rather than being accountable for how she ended up raising two children without a daddy, people who talk like this would eat their children (and let's hope they don't have any) before they'll be accountable for whatever's causing them to demonize an entire gender.

8:27 AM, September 29, 2009  
Blogger Topher said...

Dating advice for young people?

-When I talk dating with twentysomething women friends who are in the dating pool, I bring up Frogwatch's point. "Lots of guys will say whatever they have to to get in your pants. Not all, but at this age enough to worry about it."

What's funny, though, is that those guys will say literally unbelievable things to this end. Things like "I think I'm in love with you" on the second date. So it's not like you need a polygraph to tell if they are bullshi**ing you; they are so absurd they are almost not even lies. Unfortunately, the type of women who need this taught to them also have really badly calibrated "too good to be true" detectors.

They also tend to be the type who will make every excuse for an asshole, saying "he loooveesss meee" or "I looovveeee hiiiiimmm." Which brings me to my next point:

-Don't date an asshole, or a b**ch. Just don't do it. Would you ride in a car with one flat tire? Forget how hot they are, how socially dominant in their own little world, how much your friends will be jealous.

Don't tell me you didn't know they were that way. Girls, ask a good guy friend who's not interested in you for an opinion. Guys have instant, 95%-accurate a-hole detectors.

Guys, don't put up with a girl who makes you grovel. Fight the princess syndrome.

-Both sides: don't put up with behavior you think disrespects you. Don't let it all slide or save it up to be passive-aggressive. Just say "I don't like it when you ____ (don't call/show up late/leave your cheesecake mags out/make us late changing clothes/demand I pay for everything)"

-It's probably inadvisable to mock your mate in front of your same-gender friends.

-The last point I make is that most guys (again not all) respect a person as much as they display "respect" for themselves. That's why nerds get picked on, and why slutty women are seen as objects by frat guys, and doormats get walked over.

9:17 AM, September 29, 2009  
Blogger Topher said...

AngelEyes - I don't feel embarrassment from the actions of other men. I'm not them - I don't strut showing off my wealth with expensive clothes, have elaborate affairs, or act like a frat guy* who would love nothing more than to pull a train on the village bicycle. I'm my own person, I don't carry a flag for any of my demographics.

No disrespect meant to frat brothers per so. In my vocabulary, "frat guy" is a term of art describing a hard-drinking, porn-watching wannabe-"alpha male" obsessed with one upping his male friends and trying to score with hot chicks at the bar. They are the guys in Bud Light ads and in real life have a permanent facial contortion that comes from being drunk one too many times (so mom was right that your face would freeze that way!)

However, getting to your point, the more I view dealing with people like training a dog, the better it seems to go...dogs need to be taught boundaries, and if they exceed them need to have those boundaries re-emphasized. People are the same way - if you tell them not to do something and then let them do it without punishment, they will know the rules is a lie (which lowers their respect for both the rule and you).

9:30 AM, September 29, 2009  
Blogger Chuck Pelto said...

TO: Topher
RE: Indeed!

Don't date an asshole, or a b**ch. Just don't do it. -- Topher

As I like to put it....

Never lie down with someone who has more troubles than you.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind. -- Proverbs]

P.S. You invite 'trouble' into your house when you get intimately involved with someone who has more problems than you do....

2:57 PM, September 29, 2009  
Blogger mallenv said...

There are some very intelligent people on here. Some of them surprise me. I am a single straight male electrical engineer, not dumb by most accounts, but probably as socially inept as the proverbial engineer. I don't think I am a pig, although I don't vacuum as often as I should. But on all this, I think of Occams razor. Many here are going too deep, the simplest explanation is the best. I know guys I would never let my sister date, I know women I would never let my brother date. There are types of both sexes that I don't agree with their lifestyles, but I have friends of both those types, I am not going to be judgemental in friendship, as long as they do nothing illegal and don't actually hurt anyone. There is someone for everyone, and that allows all types to exist, one pig wouldn't exist without the other, if you want to call them pigs.

A landlord in college once told me he was happy to have men rent, because women were pigs. It goes both ways. So in the end, we all have things that disgust us and make us think others are pigs, but it is both sexes, and just human nature. It will be discussed until the end of time. But one sex is no less a pig than the other, IMHO. I think reality is a coarse thing that deep thought doesn't do justice to.

9:12 PM, September 29, 2009  
Blogger pockosmum said...

'A woman stating that all men are pigs is really expressing her own dissatisfaction with her relations with the opposite sex, in a manner that suggests those relations are not going to improve soon.'

And typically, rather than learn a lesson about their own choices, they make it all about how bad men are. Nice dodge, that. I hear it a lot from women who picked jerks to have relationships with, my own sister included. She and my niece now mouth 'all men are pigs' quite frequently since she divorced. No reflection at all on the fact that she said 'Yes' when he proposed...or that she had a choice in the matter, or even on the fact perhaps some of the problems that broke them up might have been her fault. Oh no, all men are pigs. Washes ones hands nicely, doesn't it?

9:55 PM, September 29, 2009  
Blogger Fen said...

Dating advice for young people?

I quickly learned I needed to add a 4th qualifier when looking for a woman I would marry:

1) Intelligent
2) Sense of humor
3) Attractive
4) Sane

10:05 PM, September 29, 2009  
Blogger Joreth said...

Oh my god are you people really this stupid? Did you leave your brains back on the junior high playground?

People are unique individuals. There is no such thing as "all men are X" or "all women are Y". There isn't even any such thing as most men or women are any given thing.

The entire range of human emotion and personality is so incredibly complex that it is utter folly to describe an entire gender with a simple, one-word derogatory slur.

Why is it so difficult for you people to understand that people, regardless of gender, are complex social creatures, with individual strengths and flaws?

Why is it so difficult to go from that concept to the next, which is that *everyone* has good traits, bad traits, and even good or bad days?

Shame on all of you who do it. I pity your children for growing up with such tragically flawed outlooks. It is YOUR doing that creates annoying checkout girls like the ones the OP wrote about, and "frat boys" who think all women are whores.

All of you who do this suck. I wish you'd all stick to the playground and let the rest of us grownups go on about our lives without having to deal with your shit.

11:11 PM, September 29, 2009  
Blogger Joreth said...

Oh, and Dr. Helen, thank you for bringing to those girls' attention their stereotyping behaviour. Maybe it'll cause them to think and possibly change, maybe not.

But, as one of my intelligent, decidedly non-piggish boyfriends says, you can't reasonably expect to get what you want if you don't ask for it. If we want social change, we have to make it known that the change is desired and that behaviour is unacceptable.

P.S. And for the record, I managed to find a remarkable number of men who are not "pigs". Probably because I recognize that everyone is an individual and I treat everyone accordingly. Naturally, I look for the same traits in my partners and I have been fortunate to find many such men available.

Currently, I have two partners who are not lying pigs, and, in fact, are quite remarkable men. These men are filled with compassion, consideration, and honesty. All you sexist commentors of either/any gender could do with a lesson from them.

11:17 PM, September 29, 2009  
Blogger mallenv said...

Fen: The four in order should be:

1. sane
2. attractive/attracted to you
3. sense of humor
4. intelligent

11:39 PM, September 29, 2009  
Blogger Topher said...

"Why is it so difficult to go from that concept to the next, which is that *everyone* has good traits, bad traits, and even good or bad days?"

There are these people, which we accept, and there are the irreparably spoiled, narcissistic people who think they are the only person in the world who matters. Those people are cancers to healthy relationships and they come in both genders.

"Shame on all of you who do it. I pity your children for growing up with such tragically flawed outlooks. It is YOUR doing that creates annoying checkout girls like the ones the OP wrote about, and "frat boys" who think all women are whores."

What? No. I had no hand in creating these fools. They create themselves with the help of unhealthy influences, and people who don't call them on it or request to be treated better (with punishment, i.e. not paying them any more attention, to follow) enable this behavior.

11:53 PM, September 29, 2009  
Blogger Joreth said...

"There are these people, which we accept, and there are the irreparably spoiled, narcissistic people who think they are the only person in the world who matters. Those people are cancers to healthy relationships and they come in both genders."

But those people are still people, with good and bad traits. Everyone has them in varying degrees. And the point is that not everyone of either gender is them.

"What? No. I had no hand in creating these fools."

I was speaking to those who made comments about teaching their children that "all boys lie" and the like. If you don't, then I'm not talking to you. If you do, then yes you do contribute to creating checkout girls who say "all men are pigs" because you would have been the first person to tell them that all men are pigs.

12:35 AM, September 30, 2009  
Blogger Joreth said...

People are not black and white, 2-dimensional comic-book characters. Anything you see of any given person is only a partial model created by your perception of them based on whatever limited observance you have of them. This is not the totality of who they are.

Even "spoiled, narcissistic people who think they are the only person in the world who matters" are not supervillains, cackling maniacally in their lair over their diabolical plans to objectify unsuspecting girls (or guys).

They are people, with character flaws, of which no one is immune.

All of you *are* some version of a 2-D "bad guy" to someone else.

12:41 AM, September 30, 2009  
Blogger Tether said...

Teach us, Joreth. Teach us so that we may become human.

*Yawn*

1:34 AM, September 30, 2009  
Blogger Joreth said...

If you're bored by the thought that people are individuals and deserve to be treated as such, then I can totally understand why you would be called a pig. Forgive me, I will refrain from defending you from the title in the future.

1:48 AM, September 30, 2009  
Blogger Mark said...

mallenv

You definitely have the order correct. Sanity should be your first consideration. If you are dating a woman who does some crazy stuff, don't blow it off. She might be genuinely crazy. There are plenty of people who will never be diagnosed but who are crazy enough to make your life way more difficult than it would be if they were not in it.

You might like to have something about character in the list as well.

4:37 AM, September 30, 2009  
Blogger Topher said...

Joreth, you seem to be replacing one broad brush with another...in arguing we dispense with crude gender stereotypes, you argue we adopt an "I'm OK, you're OK" model where no one is bad, just different.

What people should understand is not "all men are pigs/all women are *whatever*" is that most people are normal decent humans whose behaviors respond to the situation they are in. However, *some* people are sociopathic, compulsively dishonest or otherwise fundamentally dangerous to one's psyche and well-being. If people learned to spot these types, keep them out of their lives and not be swayed by their charms, we might have fewer people claiming the opposite sex is pigs and other nasty names.

12:15 PM, September 30, 2009  
Blogger Joreth said...

I'm am most certainly not arguing that "I'm OK, you're OK". I am arguing that we are all PEOPLE who are varied, unique, and individual and should be treated on an individual basis.

That means that if you encounter a sociopath intent on strangling you with your own telephone cord, you should treat him like a sociopath intent on strangling you with your own telephone cord.

It means that you should reserve your judgement of individual people until you have something to judge, and to not put people in arbitrary categories.

Putting people in a category based on gender can only tell you trends that have to do specifically with their genitals (or however you're defining one's gender).

Putting people in a category based on gender does not tell you anything about an individual's religious beliefs, their relationship habits, or what foods they prefer. Those traits have nothing to do with their gender.

I'm also cautioning against making a broad sweeping statement about a person's inherent "piggishness" based upon your own limited exposure to that person.

People seem to want to forget that even those who perform acts that we think of as "bad" are not inherently bad people. They love, they have family, they have complex personalities and psyches. Most people who do bad things do not think of themselves as doing bad things and often have people who love them or do not see them as bad people either.

When we, say, break up with a partner, that partner might think we're a horrible person, but we might have a very legitimate reason for breaking up with them, or at least we might think we do.

It's *this* scenario I'm trying to point out, as it is the most likely reason why a checkout girl would be gossiping with her coworker talking about how men are pigs, not the idea of psychopaths or mentally unstable dictators with their fingers on the buttons of nuclear destruction.

Very few of those people we encounter in life that leave us with negative feelings or judgments about them are *actually* bad people in general. We have only seen a small slice of who they are and our mental models of them are flawed.

It may be entirely true that such a person is incompatible with us and we would do well to steer clear of them. But to call them "bad people" as a whole is to flatten the model of that person into a 2-D picture using incomplete information.

Because no matter how "good" we think we are, we have also pissed someone else off to the point that they think that *we* are that "bad person". And just as it's not true when someone does it to us, we should understand that it's not usually true when we do it to them.

5:11 PM, September 30, 2009  
Blogger Ronnie Schreiber said...

"Men must be civilized by society, and have their piggishness held in check through the development of a conscience."

And women need to have their controlling impulses held in check.

Dennis Prager says that while males are constantly socialized to reign in their naturally violent and promiscuous impulses, females are rarely if ever reminded that their natural impulses need to be held in check as well.

11:30 AM, October 05, 2009  
Blogger xlbrl said...

Burke would have advised that he who accuses all others of being pigs would be sure to convict only one.

12:37 PM, October 06, 2009  
Blogger conceptualclarity said...

Feminism and its misandry are destoying Western society by destroying marriage and the family. Divorce today consists of wives abandoning their husbands the overwhelming majority of the time. Male feminists and posters like the above who aree "men are pigs" or tell their daughters "all boys lie" or "males only want one thing" are contributing to the problem.

12:45 AM, October 07, 2009  
Blogger philmon said...

Thank you for stopping another echo.

The only way to fight this mindset and win back our culture is to firmly, politely -- fefuse to shut up - one conversation at a time.

By our silence we condone this behavior.

8:08 AM, October 07, 2009  
Blogger philmon said...

I forgot to add ... the "well we/they ALL do it" meme is the standard "back out" when these people are called on their prejudices.

Sort of a "spread the blame around" so nobody looks directly at me and my red face.

8:10 AM, October 07, 2009  
Blogger Joshua said...

Someone screamed that in my face once. I've met several people who hold such views. It bothers me too.

Just now, I was walking down the street minding my own business. Two girls biked past me, one of them shouting "Hey mister pervert." I was the only person on the street. I felt quite offended!

10:27 PM, August 03, 2011  
Blogger The_Laughing_Seraphim said...

It so happens, Cham, that men are not pigs as pigs are not men. If you believe men intrinsically need to be civilized by a culture (de-maled) then you are not a man. You are a creature, a male at best and defective in every sense of the word. To impose the grotesque simplicity and lack of intellectual fever you see in yourself onto actual men, disgusts me to no end.
The cashiers behavior is a variety of small minded misandry that is both common and applauded in our society. It also speak to the general moral turpitude our society instills in its women. To condone is to commit, as such Dr. Helen become one of the few women alive who actually is unblemishable.

3:17 PM, August 26, 2011  

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