"But if you are drawn to people who are toxic for you, then you may be better off staying single."
This is good advice offered by Christine Northan, a counsellor interviewed in a BBC News (via hotair) article on the scars of divorce.
There are many men who are drawn to toxic women who continue to stay and be emotionally abused by them --and who suffer from health problems as a result. While there are slew of books out there
and other resources for women to learn how to cope with the problem of toxic men, there are fewer resources for men in dealing with toxic women.
In fact, when I searched Amazon with the key words women who hate men, I came up with only books about...men who hate women.
Big surprise.
There are many men who are drawn to toxic women who continue to stay and be emotionally abused by them --and who suffer from health problems as a result. While there are slew of books out there
and other resources for women to learn how to cope with the problem of toxic men, there are fewer resources for men in dealing with toxic women. In fact, when I searched Amazon with the key words women who hate men,
I came up with only books about...men who hate women.Big surprise.
posted by Helen at 7:05 AM
54 Comments:
If someone would write a book about learning to cope with a toxic woman would there be a market for it? Perhaps someone should try the concept out.
I read the article about the how health is affected by divorce. Yes, I can agree that those divorced have less-healthy lives, but is the divorce the sole cause of the less healthy life? I would suspect that alcoholics, addicts, ragers and the generally dysfunctional have a higher divorce rates than other people, but maybe it is those behaviors that lead to less healthy lives and not so much the divorce (although I can see that divorce can be stressful, it is not an continuous event).
Cham,
"..would there be a market for it?"
You have to wonder why women love books about how men hate women so much and why the reverse is not true. I read research that women hold a grudge and have trouble forgiving moreso then men. Perhaps men actually love women more than the other way around.
You have to wonder why women love books about how men hate women so much and why the reverse is not true...
Men don't buy "relationship" self help books.
Maybe all the "men hate women" books are a form of projection.
I am not convinced that men love women more, but they will hang on to a bad relationship longer and will be less likely to admit there is a problem when there is one. There are number of books available that talk about how to make your marriage work with your less-than-ideal husband, one could be made available for men with less-than-ideal wives. Although, my advice stands for people who passionately don't like their spouse of either gender: Get away from them.
Book publishing is so easy these days, anyone can do it. Some men might appreciate a good book with intelligent suggestions for working on solid relationships that go beyond "make your one-night stands classy".
"Some men might appreciate a good book with intelligent suggestions for working on solid relationships that go beyond "make your one-night stands classy"."
______________________
Why don't you write one?
I'm being serious - it's not like the other relationship authors know anything. I especially like the books written by people with 5 divorces behind them.
Big, Fat Dr. Phil wrote a book on dieting and it was a bestseller.
Maybe he didn't have time to read his own book.
Here's my book, by the way:
Don't get married or get her pregnant.
The End.
Women definitely tend to bear a grudge more, Helen. Even if we assumed that men and women were genetically equal in this regard, men still have to deal with rejection more than women -- so they develop a thicker skin. Also, men generally have to fight their own battles instead of getting their partner to do it for them, so they have a stronger incentive to make peace.
There are no books about these men... only television shows... like Bridezillas.
@Cham said... I can agree that those divorced have less-healthy lives, but is the divorce the sole cause of the less healthy life? I would suspect that alcoholics, addicts, ragers and the generally dysfunctional have a higher divorce rates than other people, but maybe it is those behaviors that lead to less healthy lives and not so much the divorce (although I can see that divorce can be stressful, it is not an continuous event
_____________
This is also the reason I argue that the oft-cited studies about how men are psychologically, emotionally, physically, and financial better-off when married are bogus. They are married because they are better off, not better off because they are married. They had their act together better to begin with.
I also think the bogus correlation feeds the incorrect belief that "if he marries me, he'll settle down." This is also probably the reason that divorced people are worse off... they aren't worse of because they are divorced, it is the behaviors that make them worse off that cause the divorce.
@Original Post: "There are many men who are drawn to toxic women who continue to stay and be emotionally abused by them --and who suffer from health problems as a result."
__________________
Part of it is the damsel in distress syndrome, part of it is chivalry, part of it is foolishness. But, repeatedly, these men are told that the emotional abuse by these women are a result of the men's shortcomings.
Browse shmuley.com for myriad articles by a Rabbi arguing that "when a woman cheats, an unattentive husband is the culprit" and "men who cheat are self hating" and "the reason women choose scumbags is there are no gentlemen left"
I'm rather a geek, so it took me a long time to realize that a substantial minority, at the very least, of American women hate men. That realization has made my life much easier. I won't have anything to do with a woman who hates men, and that has saved me a lot of pain.
Of course, I can't avoid absolutely all of them. Sometimes I have to work with one. In that case, keeping things on a business level avoids most of the problems.
Both genders can get imprinted with bad partners. If we are not careful, we can seek someone with our opposite gender parent's problems and try to "fix" them. I do not see this as a gender related problem.
But women buy relationship books much more than men do. You can view romance novels as relationship porn.
Trey
With regard to books for men about abusive women:
The Queen complains about servants, a servant does not complain about the Queen. That's just how it is.
There are lots of RealMen(TM) who are PROUD that the demanding wife doesn't work, they are PROUD that they can show they must be really wealthy if they can hold such a demanding bitch, they are PROUD that she is absolutely useless and worthless. And the pressure is on - from both men (of the RealMan variety) and women in society - for men to buckle down and be OF SERVICE to the woman. Men have to feed their family, give up their seat, put "ladies first", and otherwise be subservient.
Even men who don't play the stupid "RealMan" role generally just have the attitude "they're all like that anyway - the choice is not have a relationship/sex or put up with it".
"...better off staying single."
That's the conclusion I came to.
I think a lot of women just don't have the first clue about men. The sooner women accept men as they are instead of trying to change them into women (metrosexuals - ugh), the better things will be for everyone. If you don't like men, date women. The solution is simple and everyone's a winner.
I've made a bunch of mistakes myself, so maybe I'm like one of those "5 divorces behind them" advice book writers here, but sometimes a person can learn things from their mistakes if they want to (although 5 divorces would seem to suggest a distinct lack of learning).
And yes Trey, romance novels are just as damaging as porn, but we're not allowed to criticize women's escapism. ;)
@Trey and Frogetfulmuse: "romance novels are juast as damaging as porn."
________
I'm sickened by this ridiculous Edward Cullen (Twilight) phenomenon.
I was in wal mart at midnight a while back, and there was a significant police presence and girls lined up out into the parking lot to buy Twilight as soon as it was released.
My wife became obsessed with the books and with Edward Cullen, to the point where I slept on the couch for a week because, at 2 am, she refused to turn the lights off so I could sleep because she was so into the book.
In a nutshell, Edward is a vampire. Women into the series rave about what a dream he is:
* He doesn't catch on fire or turn hideous in sunlight, he glitters. He is so beautiful. (gag)
* He admits he's killed people, but he changed. The love interest is all goo goo eyed when he talks of his murderous past.
* He gives her piggy back rides at 50 mph
* He climbs her to the tree tops at fast speeds to see the beautiful sunset.
Yet, none of that is why women like him. He's from the 20s and has brought the lost chivalry of the 20s to today.
Baloney. It's just another play on the "he's bad but with me he's good" fantasy. Does anyone really believe Edward would be so appealing if he was an actual man from the 20s time warped to today? Is that what women really want, their great grandpa's buddies in younger form? Of course not. The 20s chivalry isn't the attraction, it's the justification.
Good husbands can't give 50 mph piggy back rides and don't glitter in the sunlight. They sure as hell don't talk about how they've killed people but changed with goo-goo eyes looking on. And thousands of husbands are suffering due to an impossible fictional character to measure up to.
Yes, romance novels can do great damage. Just as porn gives women an impossible standard to live up to, so do fictional romantic characters do the same to men.
Well I'd rather watch porn than read Twilight so I guess I'm just weird. :P Seriously though, it all gets boring because it's NOT REAL. I think it's a bit sad when a grown woman is reading books designed to hook teenagers (and tweens I suppose, blech). Besides, vampires are supposed to be ugly, not gay looking pretty goth boys.
I suppose the "bad boy" thing is more or less on par with the male whore fantasy that is pornography. I think these things are perhaps somewhat natural and hard-wired, but we do have the option to bring fantasy elements into our relationships. I wonder if people here think this is a healthy option, so long as it doesn't end up taking over from reality.
The problem is neither with men or women. The problem is with the law.
Is there any other legal contract where one party (overwhelmingly women) can just change her mind and walk out with half of everything? No.
Is there any other legal contract whereby one party (exclusively male) is held fully responsible for paying child support to his supposed partner, even when the child is not his? No.
I love women. But there is a reason why I, and millions of other men, refuse to marry one. It's because I'm not about to invest 50% of my income and assets in a woman who is not intent on being my life partner, my helpmate, and the mother to my children. I'm certainly not going to agree to pay 20% in child support for some bastard that isn't mine.
When women are held responsible for the consequences of their decisions and actions, as men are, and when the biological father is required to pay child support for every child he conceives, then marriage will make sense. Until such time, it's a crap shoot. And more often than not, you end up with snake eyes.
I agree with GawainsGhost. If things were fair, people would be more tolerant and less demanding. Women would work harder at making marriages work if custody, the house, money, and a heap of alimony wasn't so automatic. If they faced what men faced--a significant chance of being worse off and not having their kids--marriage would be improved.
Anyone here ever have an employee that married into wealth? They were less dependable and less tolerant. Why? because they had the option of telling you to shove the job. Same concept.
Today, husbands let everything slide (because their choice is to have their life ruined by a good lawyer) and wives take issue with everything (because they law of the land makes it very rewarding to leave).
If anyone doubts that the security and options afforded wives by law don't result in less tolerance, increased demands, a resulting worse marriage, and higher divorce rate, drop me a note--I have a beach home in northern alaska I'll sell you cheap for cash.
Trust sez "... to the point where I slept on the couch for a week because, at 2 am, she refused to turn the lights off ..."
----
Let me guess ... because she doesn't have to get up and PRODUCE in the morning.
Reading teenage crap as late as you want, living the same lifestyle as the producer, but not having to work for it --- why the f$&k do men tolerate that. Sorry, but she sounds like a little kid. Must be a manly feeling.
Add the whipped topping of constant nagging, complaining and demanding and voila, you have the modern American woman.
@Tether said... Let me guess ... because she doesn't have to get up and PRODUCE in the morning.
______________
No, she works full time. Just was too into the books. It really became my choice. I told her that I couldn't sleep with the lights on and she informed me that she was a big girl and didn't have a bedtime. So I took my pillow to the couch. She tried to out will me for a few days, but finally apologized and started shutting the lights off at a decent hour. I couldn't control her, but I didn't have to sit there and take it. So I left.
What I think is sad is a dent was put in our marriage because a 33 year old woman became obsessed with a fantasy character that appeals to teenagers. I was more upset over the obsession than the late night.
Here's an idea. How about pegging child support to the amount that state welfare agencies pay for the children of single mothers? Then leave it to the generosity of the father to provide additional?
The whole "standard to which she has become accostomed" is pure BS. That standard included a husband, which she no longer has. And what is the ex wife going to do to support the husband in the standard to which he has grown accustomed? Clean his house once a week? Drop by for sex once a month?
"Clean his house once a week? Drop by for sex once a month?"
_________________
She shouldn't have to do those more frequently than she did in the marriage.
[Drum rim shot in the background]
@JG said... "She shouldn't have to do those more frequently than she did in the marriage."
_______
A little Wednesday joke...
Husband comes home to his wife packing.
Husband says "Where are you going?"
Wife says "I'm moving to New York. There they'll pay me $400 to do what I do for you for free."
Husband gets a suitcase and starts packing.
Wife says "where are you going?"
Husband says "I'm moving to New York too. I want to see you try to live on $800 a year."
Gee Trust, I would think that since she was the one choosing to stay up, she ought to be the one on the couch reading, not commandeering the bedroom for her own fantasies. I'd feel like a bit of an a-hole if I were her, and saying she's a big girl and doesn't have a bed time? LOL Yup, childish. I would have answered, "OK then, get out of bed and go read on the couch because I'm an old man and I have a bed time." I don't suppose she'd see the humour in that though, eh?
JG - Good one. Ha ha ha!
@GawainsGhost
Prenupts Prenupts Prenupts
Trust, good joke.
""But if you are drawn to people who are toxic for you, then you may be better off staying single."
Or better yet, figure out the attraction problem, fix it, and find good people to bond with.
Trey
Exactly Trey. No need to give up completely, though I totally understand doing that too, having stayed single for more than 3 years after my own marriage went tits up. I just found that there's only so far you can go on your own as far as growth goes and I wasn't enjoying being single anymore.
We are not permitted to discuss toxic women. This might result in feminist social programs for women only losing some of their funding to social programs that don't bash men. We certainly wouldn't want THAT to happen.
I know someone that is a toxic woman, physically and emotionally abusing her girlfriends. Wish I could cite it, but I read that lesbian relationships have *more* abuse than heterosexual relationships. But the feminazis keep that under wraps as well as bashing men. In fact, I've heard men get blamed because women become lesbians.
@stormbringer
The solution to all men's problems and behaviors is for men to "man up."
The solution to all women's probems and behaviors is for men to "man up."
It's funny how on one hand, we tell men to "man up", but on the other, we provide every fiscal, sexual, and legislative incentive to do the opposite.
for 15 years i lived with a woman who had the emotional structure of my father.
i fixed it though....or i will say for fear of contradiction, that i`m working on it.
i fixed me.
i beleive one of the dividends of the self-work i`m involved in doing is that i met the woman i`m currently with.
toxic people are, in transactional terms, playing one of a number of not-ok games. damsel in distress is the typical white night game, followed by rapo, let`s you and him fight etc.
games people play by eric berne lays it out clearly.
another dividend of honest self-work is that one can see games more clearly, in others and in one`s self.
the games the self plays, the script family games can be difficult to address and to change because of the emotional energy that binds one to the game and it`s payoffs.
my delightful ex bought a book called bitches and the men who love them. not long after she bought the book i called her "love" or some such endearment and she said "don`t call me that, i hate that".
after i overcame the shock i realised something was deeply wrong. i found the book under our mattress a few weeks later while moving the bed to paint. her statement made more sense then, but did nothing to alleviate my creeping dread for the relationship.
many men find themselves playing white night. the successful man lifts up the damsel in distress and she is swept away...ala the vampire movie mentioned above. the law allows this game to be played unevenly and eventually the woman gets bored with the easy life and, naturally, wants some texture and feeling and excitement.
she then takes her legal right.
how do men protect themselves from this?
live alone.
pay for sex on a per-use basis, much as most service providers understand.
and play poor me on blogs like this about how ALL WOMEN ARE THE SAME.
the alternative is to grow up and be a man.
be the man a real woman wants.
be totally committed to everything, including her.
take the risk, and be prepared to be hurt if that`s what you believe will happen.
and bang her silly occasionally, even if it means a little blue pill.
rattling her cage now and then really works.
so does a suprise foot massage followed by handcuffs.
if you are man enough.
oh, and if your woman is pushing you out of your bed so she can read her pornography.....she has issues, and you are tolerating the abuse.
reverse the genders in the last paragraph for a moment.....
.....and let`s not mistake it, twilight is a sexual fantasy.
if you were watching debbie does dallas on the bedroom tv while your woman was trying to get some sleep before work you`d be remmoved form your home at gunpoint.
"Toxic Women: Women Who Hate Men" by Dr. Helen Smith.
1. You would be the perfect candidate to write this book.
2. Since there are no books on the subject you have a wide open nitch market to be the pioneer in, thus a virtual guarantee that it will be a best seller- making you famous and enabling you to cash in.
3. Get to work!
(you're welcome)
Prenuptial agreements are a joke. Ask any lawyer, and he'll tell you, any contract can be broken. Well, except the marriage contract, that is.
Whether you have a prenuptial agreement or not, there is nothing to prevent her from running around behind your back, getting knocked up by some boy in a bar and slapping you with child support payments for some bastard that isn't yours. Period.
The law is set up to protect women from men. There is no law to protect men from women.
With the economy the way it is, there's some great deals going on in Vegas.
Important Doctor Alistair sez: "the alternative is to grow up and be a man."
and further on down:
"if you are man enough."
----------------
With the tacit suggestion, of course, that you are a Real Man since you are the one suggesting this.
I've seen dopes like you go into a flaming tailspin out of the blue sky when she decides she's tired of milking the "RealMan" for all it's worth.
You slipped a little bit and told the truth when you said "be the man a real woman wants". That's what it's really about: You are being too much of a coward to actually want to also live YOUR life - to put your foot down on some things that you also want in life and risk the loss of the relationship if she really is a bitch - so you turn a weakness into a virtue by pretending like your behavior is of a strong man.
Even if you go your whole life in service of your "soul mate" (up on the pedestal) without her dismissing you out of utter contempt for your obsequiousness, you are behaving like a slave and a coward.
This comment has been removed by the author.
I've also noticed that Real Men are not content to just live their lives according to their own principles in the quiet knowledge that they are superior men.
No, they have to also try to force their principles on other men, because they are 105% sure that they are absolutely, positively right. Their prior divorce(s) were just learning experiences in how to be Real Men, and now they've got it right and you are going to be humiliated into 1) recognizing his RealMan-ness and 2) becoming a Real Man yourself.
And if his behavior doesn't produce the predicted result, and Buttercup divorces him out of the blue after 20 years, then all of a sudden you're going to have to hear about THAT and about how SHE "didn't do it right".
Frankly, I avoid Real Men in real life now. They are idiotic losers in my book and have nothing to offer me in terms of insight about life. I have no responsibility to listen to them or bolster their ego. I still have to watch them go through their paces on-line, unfortunately.
Lyrics to I Can't Save You Angelene :
I was a rolling stone
But now I've come back home
I've given up that trail
I feel no need to fail
So take your midnight runs
I'm hangin' up the guns
I can't save you Angelene
This endless party scene
This weekend warriors dream
It's gotten stale for me
It doesn't set me free
You want a kindred soul
Someone to say let's go
I can't save you Angelene
You may find yourself out somewhere babe
Talkin' loud tellin' ties
Temptation's gonna get you girl
No surprise no surprise
I wanna get from here
I wanna get myself clear
I want the warm sun over me
Enter a guilty plea
Ah babe just walk away from me
I can't save you Angelene
[ I Can't Save You Angelene Lyrics on http://www.lyricsmania.com/ ]
Above song kinda speaks to the toxic woman issue, don't it? Bob Seger wrote it.
JD
That Pete Seger song sounds to me like someone dating an idiot more than it's about "toxic women." I rather like this one by a little known New Zealand band called The Chills, not about "toxic women" but the thing women tend to complain about with men. I couldn't catch all the lyrics so a few are missing, but you get the idea.
The Male Monster From the Id
Theres a part of me
That's in disgiuse
Though I fight to see
It won't arise
I avoid your eyes, denying
Something dark and primal surviving
I have another side
I try to hide
It can not escape,
'Cause if it tries
I have a fence raised around it
For I chose to keep it surrounded.
Gonna stay on guard always
Wanna keep my caveman hidden
Everyone has some off days
When we make bad descisions
Each man I've seen has some
Animal behaviourisms.
Some can conceal better,
The male monster from the id got out
Destroyed his cage
Saying thoughtless things
With mindless rage
And I've seen [?]
with his charms he's so hard to see through
Gonna stay on guard always
Wanna keep my caveman hidden
Everyone has some off days
When we make bad descisions,
Each man I've seen has some
Animal behaviourisms,
Some can conceal better,
The male monster from the id
The male monster from the id
I hurt you, I'm sorry,
And I promise I wont do it again,
And I'm mending all my errors,
I really am.
But my Mr Hyde
He lies and lies
It'd take a superman
to supervise
but imagine all the damage
if the [?] planet survives
I'm not like that everyday day,
I'm not normally that way.
You need convincing I can tell
I dont say this very well.
I'm sorry I hurt you,
And I promise I wont do it again,
I'm mending all my errors,
I really am.
I'd add as a thought that maybe some of these toxic women are somewhat typical in our culture as women particularly tend to expect far too much from relationships. Inevitably, they come up short, so men get blamed for not living up to the ideal of Disney movies and romance novels.
I like this quote I came across yesterday, pretty much sums it up:
One realizes that human relationships are the tragic necessity of human life; that they can never be wholly satisfactory, that every ego is half the time greedily seeking them, and half the time pulling away from them.
-Willa Cather
tether, dude....i didn`t mean to set you off.
there are RealMen and there are simply men who are real.
live alone?
i did too, for a while. left my stuff lying around, played guitar too loud...(even got the landlord upset), came and went when i liked....until that wore thin, and my kitchen became a painter`s workshop, with brushes and paint tins in the sink...and my bikes parked in the hall.
then i met a woman who understood what the trip was about and didn`t mind the mess, because her place was a bit dusty as well, and things never got quite cleaned up....because she had older kids and she worked 60 hours a week......
and she loved my guitar and my paintings and being with me all the time.
and she wanted me to move up with her pretty much right off, but i said no..that we needed the space to get to know eachother and so on.
for a year we did that.
then i moved up and parked my bike in her hall and put my paintings on her wall and my guitars are in her living room where her son and my sons and i play.
her kitchen sink is spared my paint tins though....
there are different types of lovers. some are of the idealistic, oceanic forever type. some are of the take it or leave it sort and some are of the weekend sort..and a few others besides.
then there are simply misogynists who show absolutely no flexibility over thier environment and have to live alone and develop some sort of overarching politcal and social theory to justify thier position....and attack the position nof someone who is just plainly happy.
in the moment.
and you might be right tether.
you might be right.
and if you are, you can say...i told you so.
if you take some pleasure from that.
Great post and good insights.
The "man up" thing has gotten out of hand. Women of my generation (I'm 22) are out of hand with that crap, I'll tell you that much. I've had girls I've taken out get mad at me for opening a door for them. I've had girls get mad for my pulling a chair for them or some such nonsense. Yet they all come with that "man up" junk as soon as you don't match the modern paradigm provided by bullshit like "Twilight" or "The Notebook". Here's a newsflash, bitches; ain't nobody like that on the planet. Why is it a woman can tell me to "man up" but I can't tell her to "woman up" and clean my house plus cook me a roast. Yes, the sexes are equal. No, the sexes are not the same, physically or otherwise.
Divorce? My dad just went through one. VOLUNTARILY gave up 3/4ths plus alimony and child support. I told him he was crazy. She's after more now. When we live in a world that is no longer defined by physical supremacy, how can women claim that they need the protectionist economic laws of marriage and whatnot? They're the ones that have every advantage. I sure as hell aint gonna find someone to shack up with for a few years, roll up some cash, and then split for half of the gross. I can't pay for my college by taking my shirt off.
It's just sad 'cause people always say "you're young, blah blah blah".. but my multi-year relationships, and observing my friends relationships, marriages, and etc, just indicate that the pattern I've seen with my elders is only continuing and at an ever-greater pace. I don't know what we're aiming for, some kind of gender-mash or something. Women are unhappy because they're trying to play a role that is not "them", and men are unhappy because we now have to compete not only with each other, but with women too, for almost every god damned scrap, but then we're supposed to kowtow to their every whim and "need"? No me gusta. It's sad that being a gentleman at my age and this modern world of ours gets you about jack-shit. It's sad that I have to take relationship advice from Jay-Z, but the women my age have already been conditioned by society. So I have no overwhelming desire or need to marry anymore, though a wife and kids was once kind of my picture-perfect life. I'd rather be able to say I got 99 problems, but a bitch ain't one.
Relationships are relationships but sex is the dessert of a relationship. You can't live on desserts alone but you can live without desserts but who wants too. The dessert thing can become a weapon by either sex if you let it become a weapon. So what do you want? Sex or a relationship?
Jude,
Sex should be part of the marriage relationship. If not, why bother making your spouse take a vow to forsake all others?
I've told more than one wife (never had to tell a husband this) that they may argue that sex isn't that important, but if he did it with someone else it would become the most important thing that ever happened. Can't have it both ways. Either it is important enough to make exclusive between both partners (and by exclusive, I mean monogamy, not celibacy), or it is not important and therefore should be no big deal (outside of the disease and pregnancy considerations).
Why sure it's important, it's the glue that holds two people together. Time changed me ( I could have said us) Just knowing that I am wanted and adored is wonderful, if it is consecrated it goes beyond reality in my mind and is a comfort indescribable.
Tell me what is more wonderful than to wake up in the morning in the arms of someone who loves you.
@Jude said... Tell me what is more wonderful than to wake up in the morning in the arms of someone who loves you.
__________
I can't think of many things more wonderful than that, which is why it is so sad that so many people deserve it and believe they were getting it when they said "I do" who are now treated as unwanted and incidental.
Toxic women whom I am drawn to who I think I can help.(In my mind) but I really don't know their problem. I will get burned and abused by them trying to cure the toxicity that they have to satisfy my male ego. Sometime it happens and some times it fails.
When I want to change a persons feelings toward me, I am the one who changes.
GS:
If it's any help, I thought the same way as you when I was your age, and I think the same way now (I'm heading towards 50).
Lots of men just accept what society imposes on them, and they don't SEE what is really going on.
I'm 71, too bad I didn't think like this when I was twenty one.
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