Why?
I cringed when I saw today's headline on Drudge linking to this story about a man in Alabama who killed nine people and then himself in a rampage:
I can only imagine that this man was seething with anger and wonder what led up to the events. What was going on in this man's mind that he felt these horrible actions were his only way out? Had he been fired from his job at the metal plant? Did he have emotional problems that were not being addressed? Could this have been prevented? I realize that many people don't care about this man's thought process but as a psychologist, I can't help but wonder...
A gunman on a terrifying rampage across two southern Alabama counties killed at least nine people Tuesday, including members of his own family and apparent strangers, and burned down his mother's home before shooting himself at a metals plant, authorities said.
Police were investigating shootings in at least four different locations in several communities, all of which were believed to be the work of a single gunman who had not yet been identified by investigators.
I can only imagine that this man was seething with anger and wonder what led up to the events. What was going on in this man's mind that he felt these horrible actions were his only way out? Had he been fired from his job at the metal plant? Did he have emotional problems that were not being addressed? Could this have been prevented? I realize that many people don't care about this man's thought process but as a psychologist, I can't help but wonder...
Labels: rampage killers
posted by Helen at 6:17 AM
103 Comments:
"What was going on in this man's mind that he felt these horrible actions were his only way out?"
That's what I want to know, too. Also, I suspect that once he'd killed the first person, there wasn't much additional cost, to himself, to not killing everybody who'd ever pissed him off or anybody who stood in his way.
BobH,
Rather than additional cost, the rampage killer often believes that each additional killing is a benefit. That is, they often feel that taking out as many people as possible is the goal, to make others feel their wrath and hopelessness--before killing themselves.
Perhaps he ought not to have had a gun? in this connection, we learn that 90 per cent of all arms used by Mexican drug gangs come into Mexico via the US... 90%!
In light of recent postings: Cherche la femme: behind all great men is a woman; so, behind all great failures is a dame: he did burn down his mother's house.
Nathan wrote: "Perhaps he ought not to have had a gun?"
I am not sure crazy mass murderers are very good at inhibiting themselves nathan. I cannot imagine him thinking "I am bat shit crazy, maybe I better give the police my gun."
Trey
Perhaps he ought not to have had a gun? in this connection, we learn that 90 per cent of all arms used by Mexican drug gangs come into Mexico via the US... 90%!
And we know this because mexican gangs are so good at keeping records? It may come as no great shock then that 95% of stolen cars in Mexico also come from the USA.
And 90% of all statistics used by democratic politicians are fabricated on the spot to fit the speach being given.
Besides, It is already illegal for someone who is crazy to buy a firearm in the USA. I remember answering that question on the form myself just last week. And no one would lie about such a thing.
"And no one would lie about such a thing."
Especially not bat shit crazy mass murderers.
Trey
"Could this have been prevented?"
Sure. Shoot back.
'An armed society is a polite society'
- Mark Twain
I can't help but figure that it's got something to do with society itself because these kinds of things are happening more and more.
I wonder if people who are prone to do such things already, were suppressing them before due to certain larger social factors, and now that (whatever) social factors are removed, we are seeing this more and more.
Or, maybe it's simply that one sees the pain, shock and horror caused by a previous rampage mass killer, and that sets something off in their mind that this is the path to copy, and it feeds off of itself in greater society.
One such change in society is TV violence. From the 1970's, when I started watching TV, to today, well, things have changed. We live in a society now where violent death is bombarding us in the most graphic, gruesome manners possible, at a frequency that is really quite maddening. The tube wasn't like that before. The marshall having a showdown in the street with the villain doesn't sell on today's TV - unless there is gruesome closeup details of bullets blowing half the head off with brains spilling out, followed by another 50 similar deaths.
I have been doing some amateur research on how things like TV Violence cause our cortex to shut down and move us into our mammalian/emotional brains... and eventualy into our instinctual/reptillian brains. (To protect ourselves from what we are witnessing). The more we get assaulted by violent images, the more we seem to permanently down-shift our brains from a thinking state into an emotional and/or survival state.
Whether TV or not, there is something happening in society that is either encouraging this, or is removing whatever restrained more people from doing this in the past.
Wasn't there also a guy who shot & killed a minister while in church last Sunday, but then his gun jammed, and people jumped him?
Helen isn't going to like what I have to say about these rampage killings but I feel like saying it anyway.
I understand their batshit crazy men out there. I also understand that if batshit crazy men want to get their hands on a gun legally, often they can do it. I also understand that batshit crazy men get divorced by their wives, dumped by their girlfriends, get fired from their job and flunk out of university on occasion.
And when bad things happen to batshit crazy men with guns they sometimes go on a rampage killing the evildoer boss and coworkers, the evildoer wife and evildoer kids, the evildoer extended family members, some evildoer students and faculty, and the occasional evildoer minister. (I am going gender here because I have yet to hear of a woman doing this)
Once enough death and destruction occurs, batshit crazy men turn the gun on themselves and make sure they die as well. But what bugs me the most about all of this is the way the media wraps the whole story up like one big shiny package with a closure ribbon for all of us. "Yesterday's batshit crazyman who killed 15 people was depressed because his wife left him and he was fired from his job. And now for sports and weather."
I can only assume from the way our society treats batshit crazy male rampage killers that it is almost okay with it, other than the gruesome news story, because as long as the batshit crazy rampage man kills himself so nobody has to pay for the trial and the incarceration costs, we can all happily move on with out lives. The way these things are handled it seems like when a man goes on a killing spree after having a few stressful events in his life, it's completely understandable to American society. What we are teaching men is that if you are depressed and suicidal, it's okay to take a few people out along with yourself if you are going to do it anyway. There doesn't seem to be any attempt to change male behavior and change our almost positive perception of these male killers. It would be nice if the media and the politicians would quit "tsk tsking" and start calling these guys what they are, The World's Biggest Pathetic Losers. Batshit crazy rampage killers think of themselves as heros, they may think twice about going on a killing spree if the ensuing headline read, "Giant Loser kills 15 people."
I also find it incredibly interesting that months after the rampage killings at 2 universities, Virginia Tech and North Illinois, it was found that both killers had mental problems yet were able to legally purchase guns. Batshit crazy potential killers will do anything and everything to hold onto their guns, and our society doesn't seem to have a problem with it.
Another School Shooting – Germany, 15 dead
This is becoming common-place news.
It can't just be written off to some people being wing-nuts. There has to be bigger factors involved.
Cham sez: (... because I have yet to hear of a woman doing this)
---
The song "I don't like Mondays" by the Boomtown Rats was about a girl who went on a shooting spree (Brenda Ann Spencer). Caril Fugate was another big one, but women usually have other means of killing, even mass killings, for instance by poisoning.
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Cham further sez: "... they may think twice about going on a killing spree if the ensuing headline read, "Giant Loser kills 15 people." "
----
Yeah, I'm sure that will fix the problem. Calling unstable men who already feel they have been treated unfairly "Giant Losers" is surely going to make them stop.
Shaming is the answer to everything. You want something fixed, just shame a man ("real men help women to fix things") and presto it gets fixed. You want some money, just shame a man. You want to stop men from flipping out, you just shame them.
It's just projection, mate. "It'd work on me, so likely it'd work on them." Trouble is, of course, that when dealing with someone of an entirely different thinking process (say, someone who is deranged and despairing at the same moment) it may well not apply.
Uncle Ken is right.
But what I actually came here to say was that Helen has a valid question that often gets swept away as unanswerable-therefore-unaskable: why? Poke around a bit and you will soon find someone referring to the whole thing as "senseless." But it always made sense to the one who did it, and answering questions like this is no small part of heading off disasters like this before they happen.
Sorry JG -- I understand you advocate for "boy power" via the going the victim route and all, but killing your family and taking so many out with you in your suicide drive?
That's f'n SHAMEFUL, no matter how dumbed down our liberal secular society standards are today.
Sometimes crazy people do crazy deadly things. I agree you don't hype the crazy, and you call this guy what he is: mentally f'n ill. Because no job in the world , no unfair treatment, no divorce or whatever makes a sane man do that.
Is it really true that rampage killings are more common than they were? Has anyone looked at the statistics over time? It could also be that population density has contributed... it's harder to go on a rampage killing when your potential victims are spread out more.
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JG,
Yes, one of the first school shooters was Brenda Spencer who shot up a San Diego elementary school in 1979. Girls have engaged in other school killings and stabbings, though not as often as boys/men.
Bolie Williams IV,
Is it really true that rampage killings are more common than they were?
As I recall, mass shootings are rare but are growing--I believe they make up 1% of murders. I do think there is a copycat component in these killings--that the more those who are mentally ill see previous killers talked about and seen on the news, the more real it becomes to them as a possibility.
Bolie: To be a successful rampage killer you need a few things. First of all, you should have more than a few guns. They all need to loaded, operational and you shouldn't know how to use them. You also need to know where your intended victims are and also be able to be given free access to their location. To increase your victim numbers you want to have a large group of people in one confined location with few exits, ideally seated in an area that is confining and not moving, like a church, school cafeteria or class room.
I don't think people are congregating any less or more than they did years ago but a couple of things have changed. Guns are more accurate, more lethal and can accommodate more ammo. Also, we've become a more mobile society so people have fewer ties to their community and feel more isolated. As one poster mentioned, violence is prevalent on TV. Last night I was watching an old episode of Walker Texas Ranger where Walker gave a moving speech on how it was manly to settle differences through violence, if someone calls him out to a physical fight he's going to step up. All of this has an impact, and so far, our society is doing absolutely nothing, nil, nada to change things.
Because no job in the world , no unfair treatment, no divorce or whatever makes a sane man do that.
That's true.
But then again, it may just push an already mentally unstable individual over that last edge of sanity.
I recall my Sun Tzu do not press a desperate foe too hard.
Read some newspapers from the 1700-1800's England. Lot of violence then. We just get it faster and with color pictures.
Things appear to be on a decline overall.
Helen, I don't think I buy that one out of a hundred murders is a mass murder victim. Unless by mass you simply mean multiple victims - as in two.
But, it's better if people look beyond 'reporting' - here.
Olig:
Those are statistics from 1999. How about some recent numbers that include 2008 data?
it was found that both killers had mental problems
Who makes the determination that someone is too ill to be allowed to purchase a gun.
I smell the good old slippery slope.
Jack:
I am sure we, as a society, can come up with some guidelines. We've got plenty of statistics, data and psychologists that could be helpful in that regard. If you are afraid of a slippery slope then we are going to have to let everyone have a gun and accept the consequences, which is the route America has chosen.
They have a show on TV for batshit crazy women who go off called Snapped. Granted, they don't usually go on a killing sprees but the show does not seem to be running out of women who go nuts and off their significant others.
I wish there was a way to find out the thinking process of say Bruce Pardo of the Christmas Eve massacre fiasco in Covina. How does someone shoot in the face an 8-year-old? When do you cross the line from just being an asshole who snapped to an evil human being?
There has to be a difference between the violence supposedly caused by say, Grand Theft Auto IV, and the violence of Dr. Mengele. I could probably be induced to violence if you come after mine, but to torture and evil? No. It is a more and more pressing issue it seems.
...Guns are more accurate, more lethal and can accommodate more ammo
As I recall, the VT shooter used a 22cal. Certainly not more lethal than a .45 long colt, or 9mm, but as it turned out, lethal enough, given targets sitting still waiting for it. Revolvers, still a favorite with some people, still only hold 5-6 shots.
The fact is, that rampage killings are rare enough to make statistics on them meaningless. Once is enough to make an impression
Anybody can get a gun today, or why not a knife that works just as well. I'm sick and tired of people blasting other people for having guns. Most killers have illegal guns that are not registered? A very low percentage of these killings are done with registered weapons. You look at how much violance and distruction men have comitted with weapons and women have done far worse to men and children with divorce through the family courts system and how that has an effect on society today and with families today. I'm tired of hearing of the legal gun owner getting trashed. Look at the statistics. We don't know what this man was going through, yeah ok he lost his job, and his wife left him but, what about the other things that go along with that? Were his child support arrearage building up? Most men in a divorce end up paying everything and the women gets off scott free with no debt and good credit. Was he facing jail time because of arrearages that he had no way of paying? Did they take his license away? Did his mother offer to help him in this situation? He was at the end of his rope. I don't think that what he did was right but, how are we to know what we would do in his situation without actually being in his shoes. I believe we all have it in us to do bad things when pushed into a corner of desperation. Most people wouldn't do what he did but we just don't know everything in his situation. He was a bad man but there are also bad women out there too, they just do things differently. And everybody including myself bares responsibilty for people who reach this point for not speaking up when someone does something wrong to another person, by not voting out a corupted elected offical by not hold people accountable for their wrong doings. We let society get this bad it is our fault. And blaming just for the sake of blaming is not going to get any of these issues fixed.
I think it goes along with the general decline of morals in society. Relativity in one area feeds relativity in another area.
BTW...re: Brenda Spencer...anyone besides me remember the Boomtown Rats song "I don't like Mondays"??? Which of course memorialized this whole event...
And as far as Mexico getting 90% of the guns from us? Who says? Democrats don't believe in the 2nd ammendment and they will say and do anything to get the guns out of our hands. And just as Rome fell so will we, it's just a matter of time and how will we protect our families then huh? Our government is way to corrupted to actually be fixed, and for the strong people who can face that fact will be better off in a long run. My views may be pessamistic but I am a realist and if Rome can fall so can we. Our government is out to do one thing "CONTROL" us. They can tell the future because they are creating it. Open your eyes people things are not going to get better our government is not going to get better! Humans are scared panicky and dangerous mamals and you can see it with some of the things we do and read in the news.
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These kind of shootings happen only 2-3 times a year in America. Statistically insignificant for a population of 320 million(if you include 20 million illegal aliens).
If you are afraid of a slippery slope then we are going to have to let everyone have a gun and accept the consequences, which is the route America has chosen.
So explain to me why that is such a bad thing.
*He was at the end of his rope. I don't think that what he did was right but, how are we to know what we would do in his situation without actually being in his shoes.*
Um, I'll play.
I can say one hundred percent, that no matter what pressures you placed upon me (ie/I quit my job; lover left; court ordered me to pay for my children, etc.), I am 100 percent confident I would not slay my family, no matter how short my rope.
I suspect there are plenty of healthy people still left like me, who, no matter the stresses, would not play a victim card and give these as legitimate reasons for picking up a gun and slaughtering others.
See -- not really that hard, Sad Dad. Maybe you need a bit of mental counseling yourself, if you really think this is a "normal" response to stress??
*And everybody including myself bares responsibilty for people who reach this point for not speaking up when someone does something wrong to another person*
And further, I don't feel a bit guilty, or otherwise "responsible", for this fellow's actions.
LIFE IS NOT FAIR... and you don't pick up a gun and kill your family members when the going gets tough. If that's tough love, so be it.
I am not a psychologist and I wonder what was going on in the man's mind. When I heard about this earlier today, a psychologist said that the man may have had a severe personality disorder and in his delusions might have attacked the people who were actually trying to help him. I suppose that is possible.
I cannot help but wonder if this could have been prevented though. It is not often that people actually do reach out to help men, especially older men. This might be another instance of our society's general "It's not my problem" mentality playing out to its logical conclusion.
If these type of incidents are happening more frequently than in the past, I wonder if the relative lack of family and friendship support structures today compared to generations past might be a factor.
Personally (and this is true of most of my friends and co-workers as well), I have less family living close to me now than I did when I was a child, and when I was a child, there was less family close by than my parents had when they were children. And I know less of my neighbors now than I did as a child.
If you've got many people in your circle who know you and are familiar with your situation and your behavior, maybe the first signs of descent are more easily spotted, and can be caught before you get to the point where you pick up the gun and go on a rampage...
I always wonder what goes on is the minds of killers. I'm right there with Mary, no amount of stress/hard times could make me do this.
Jacob makes a good point about how little people reach out to help men. Check out the social service programs for women vs. men in your area. Plus, lots of the programs "for" men tell men they are the problem. Real helpful.
Meanwhile in Newport, KY, another woman gets off easy for shooting her sleeping husband in the head. Ho hum.
Did he find out that Obama wasn't really going to pay off his mortgage??????
Jacob and James D,
I agree, people do not reach out to help men nor do they often ask for help. Most therapists want depressed women who will not cause too much trouble or who will not be viewed as dangerous. Helping men like the ones we are talking about who have severe emotional problems, personality disorder etc. is difficult and at times, dangerous. We do need more experts who are willing to help men but I can understand the reluctance. Mental health centers often do not do the work required to keep someone with extensive problems stable and private practitioners do not have the support necessary to see people who may become violent. There are no easy answers.
I think part of it is generational. Although there are some Boomers doing this sort of thing, the vast majority of the people who do this are in their 20's and 30's.
Those are the generations (less so the GenXers, but still...) that have been mollycoddled to the point that they can't handle any type of adversity. Cripes, look at all of the whiney songs out there on the pop radio stations. Since they can't handle adversity, they go haywire pretty easily.
I remember being in Grad School when Columbine happened and the media and my professors were explaining that it was just an isolated incident. I suspected otherwise and I told one of my professors this and even went so far as to say that these things would become more common as these kids moved up through the colleges and beyond.
The ones coming up through the schools aren't any better and are in fact much worse. This has been and will be an increasing trend.
Mary,
You are putting words in my mouth, I did not say that I thought this was a normal reaction to stress, nor did I say that I thought he was in his right to do these things. I said I don't agree with what he did. He was a sick man. But you don't know what he was going through nobody did, and who are you to tell me that I need help when you don't have the answers either? I think your lashing out at the other things I said in my post. And in a small way we all are responsible for the way things turn out in society. And why didn't you paste the rest of the comment I said. You can stay lock up in you nice little home and shut the rest of the world out if you like but it's going away. And I didn't say anything about feeling guilty I said that we all bare some kind of responsiblity for the way society is turning out. So it seems to me that you are an angry person and it's you that may need some help.
James D.
I don't think the lack of extended family supports applies here. His cousins apparently were visiting his grandmother when shot to death, and all these family members appeared to live close by. This looks like a classic case of a close (geographically) family.
So, go fish...
The latest news reports say he had a list as a disgruntled employee. No doubt somebody will try to pin this behaviour on the poor job schools do in educating young men, or the lack of outreach to the male community, or the difficulties these days in society of being a man. Hogwash. There are still plenty of good men out here, if you know where to look for them and reject the "all men are societal victims" push.
There doesn't seem to be any attempt to change male behavior and change our almost positive perception of these male killers.
There isn't much attempt to change, but it's not because there is a positive perception of the killer. It's because men are assumed to be evil. Look at all the hand wringing that goes on when a woman murders somebody. Endless news spots and editorials done with the purpose to convince us that female murderers aren't evil, they're just overstressed, or have bad husbands, or have some other thing going on that shows it's not really her fault, it's somebody else's fault, so we shouldn't be so hard on them and put them in jail for a long time.
*But you don't know what he was going through nobody did, and who are you to tell me that I need help when you don't have the answers either?*
Personally, I don't care what this man was going through. I care more about the sheriff's deputy who lost his wife and little girl; I bet times were hard for him too -- I wouldn't waste one minute of time trying to find a "rational" answer for how you set your momma on fire, and shoot dead your grandmother and an 18 month old. Call me a cold hearted b- if you will, but hyping these crazies helps no one.
* think your lashing out at the other things I said in my post. And in a small way we all are responsible for the way things turn out in society.*
Again, no. I am NOT responsible for this man's acts. If you need such guilt in your life for whatever reason, feel free, but please don't bring the rest of us into it with your decrees of "responsibility".
*You can stay lock up in you nice little home and shut the rest of the world out if you like but it's going away. And I didn't say anything about feeling guilty I said that we all bare some kind of responsiblity for the way society is turning out. So it seems to me that you are an angry person and it's you that may need some help.*
Well yes, stories like this make me angry. And the reactions of supposedly sane people, with their misplaced sympathies and accusations of responsibility falling everywhere but on the killer himself... well, that makes me a little bit sad.
And yep, I plan to stay put and live my life. If you call that "shutting out the rest of the world", well I wonder why you choose to wallow in the gory company of such types. Surely there are some good men out there who better deserve your attention?
Eventually we'll wise up as a society and report these stories, but not glamorize, excuse, or spend too much energy on these types. Again, the unrelated man -- the deputy -- who lost his wife and 18 month old, and who is a single parent to his 4 month old --- how come nobody ever asks what keeps men like that getting up and going out and doing it right as a man, despite the unfair difficulties life has now thrown his way? Sometimes you have to display disgust with the weak men, not make excuses, in order to not encourage others that this is a way to garner attention/sympathy/etc.
*It's because men are assumed to be evil.*
Hmmm... why on earth would you think that? Perhaps you might open your eyes to men like the deputy I wrote of above?
And quit making excuses like: "If this guy were a girl, nobody would care if she killed her family. They'd all be busy trying to figure out what bad things were done to her to make her react this way".
Giving killers of any gender the "poor victim" treatment is not the way to win the gender wars, nor the way to build a healthy society.
Cham said, "... If you are afraid of a slippery slope then we are going to have to let everyone have a gun and accept the consequences, which is the route America has chosen."
At yet, Germany's draconian gun control laws failed to stop an even larger body count.
http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/bild-english/world-news/2009/03/11/school-shooting-in-germany/at-least-nine-dead-in-stuttgart-bloodbath-gunman-fired-at-pupils.html
sigh
Yet again I point out that more men commit firearm suicides in the usa every year than men, women, and children commit firearm homicides against men, women, and children.
The great majority of tragic senseless firearm deaths in this country are male suicides. Furthermore, this has been true for many many years.
Therefore, outreach towards suicidal men would probably do more to stop firearm mass murder-suicides, and do it better for less expense, than anything else.
Unfortunately, however, our economy is still based to a significant degree on the devaluation of men's well-being, safety, health, and lives. We do this, collectively, through many cultural means, in order to maintain a constant resupply of self-sacrificers who will do the dirty, dangerous, deadly work for less recompense than their risk deserves.
In short, we deliberately devalue the men and boys around us, constantly, and train them to devalue themselves, for life, so that we can trade their well-being, safety, health, and lives for cheaper raw materials, industrial processing, construction and production, infrastructure, and so on.
Which means, as a result, that we are not willing to spend the money and time on the research necessary to find out the characteristics of the men who are most at risk of suicide, let alone actually engage in sensibly targeted outreach towards them afterwards.
We all know perfectly well that the more and better we valued our men and boys, the more rate of such incidents would decrease.
So the basic problem here is really that we just don't want to pay the increased prices for goods and services that would result from teaching our boys to put themselves first ahead of our convenience and ease.
And thus we have the ruthlessly sexist misandry of people like Mary, whose behavior only makes the situation worse and puts more and more of us at risk, as a result of their own wealth and value being so heavily invested in male-depreciation to such a tremendous degree.
Mary, and people like her, argue as they do because it's where their bread is buttered. It's their money trail. As a rule, the more someone argues that men need to stop whining about how hard they have it and get back to work, the more dependent they actually consider themselves to be upon men's willingness to destroy themselves for that someone's benefit.
In short, people like Mary argue against greater consideration for men's issues and outreach towards them simply because of how they perceive it to threaten the convenience and ease of their livelihoods.
I absolutely agree, and good post, Acksiom.
And shaming is another tactic that women use to keep men in line. You've got one gender actually producing everything, but being devalued left and right, and another gender living high on the hog off this true production, and essentially "working" in areas like professional complaining, i.e. feminism. Or just sitting on their duffs, dully watching the Great Overlords Oprah and Dr. Phil.
It's really quite sad that the "disposable" gender is the gender that truly produces everything (which gender do you think, even today, gets around 95% of all patents?). And the prized gender, that has to be defended and protected and provided for, doesn't really produce anything.
Maybe things are exactly the wrong way around. Or maybe I shouldn't even think that, given my chivalristic brain wiring.
By the way, the suicide ratio (between men and women) is massive, like 3 or 4 to 1.
Despite all these hypnotized women coming out of a tilted university system today, they all seem to have read the polemic "Handmaiden's Tale", and despite all the talk about how bad women have it, one gender seems to find life unworthy enough to voluntarily leave it at far, far higher rates.
Huh.
I wish I could get across to men: You don't friggin' need the approval of women. View them (women) for what they really are ...
Mary is puffed up on self-righteousness and explains to us what she would never do.
Mary, people have had head injuries and then do bizarre things for a few hours before collapsing. For example. They had no memory of what they did, what they did was completely atypical, and that can happen to anyone.
Your school-marmish self-righteousness is duly noted. You are simply a dullard bent on showing others that you are superior in some way, and not a person who thinks about what truth really is. That's just boring, just as boring as these women who have shelf after shelf of leather-bound editions of "The Masters" that have never been read and never will be. Pretentious, sickeningly stupid.
What we are teaching men is that if you are depressed and suicidal, it's okay to take a few people out along with yourself if you are going to do it anyway.
Cham, you seriously need to talk to someone about your NPD. You and a bunch of journalists have nothing, nothing to "teach" men, who are grown adults.
And, you forgot one absolutely essential ingredient to what it takes to be a mass murderer: all of his victims need to be disarmed and unable to fight back.
Mary,
Give it a rest I know people like you.
Ahh. Good post Acksiom!!
Mary wrote: "misplaced sympathies and accusations of responsibility falling everywhere but on the killer himself... well, that makes me a little bit sad."
It makes me mad, because it frightens me for our culture and the world my children are inheriting.
I do like the point Acksiom made about the need for better treatment options for depressed men. These guys rarely think about going to see a doctor much less a therapist for treatment.
Would it help if people started men's health clinics that were advertised as medical but also offered extensive psychological services?
Trey
@Ackslom: Not everything is a nail just because you like your hammer. Usually, I'm all about these men's rights analyses, but think about what you're doing: you're implying that the rest of us pissed off men are a short walk away from doing what this guy did.
@DrHelen: I have more than a passing interest in issues psychological. I would love it if we could develop sufficient knowledge about why people do horrible things that we could prevent the horrible things and rescue the horrible people who are about to do them.
Maybe I'm just getting cynical and old. Sure as hell I'm getting old. But I'm no longer fascinated with figuring out out-there extreme evil. I don't think there's a lot to learn there, let's move along.
I'm a lot more interested in why Palestinian parents teach their kids to suicide bomb than in why some jackass in Alabama decides to take down his whole family. Whatever his reasons, I doubt they apply generally.
He didn't do it out of despair about the Obama stimulus plan or because his parents sucked (or else most of our parents would be dead), or even because he lost his jobs or feminazis stole his penis. He did it because he was a dipshit and that's it.
I don't care what we may discover he may have said about why he did it--he's not authoritative on his own motives because he's a dipshit.
There are no great moral truths to be gleaned from these murders, just the spectacle of the aberrations of a stupid person with stupid resentments that nobody could have saved who wouldn't have gotten as far as he did if more people got concealed carry permits.
Don't know don't care if he had a brain tumor or bad brain chemistry or whether he used his free will extraordinarily stupidly. It's sad, and so was shooting Old Yeller.
My point here is that you'll learn nothing about evil that will make any difference by studying Ted Bundy or Hannibal Lecter or this Alabama dipshit.
If you want to figure out and study evil that really matters, Germans and Muslims are the real fertile ground.
@mikelee: I disagree. If these mass shootings really are happening more frequently now than in the past, it is important to study them.
Maybe they are the result of "out there extreme evil" or flawed brain chemistry. But are there more people like that now than in the past?
Here's what I wonder: take this same guy, given the same events in his life. If this was 1959, would he still have loaded up with a pistol and 2 rifles and gone on a rampage across two counties and become national news?
Or would he have just taken the pistol and shot whoever was nearest and then himself, and become a "bizarre murder-suicide" that would only be local news?
Or would he have just killed himself alone, and never even made the news at all?
There was a really bloody, cross-country (multiple victims) rampage in 1958 - Charles Starkweather and Caril Fugate.
TMink:
If there was free available counseling services available to all men all the time would they use it? You see the posts here, every time someone suggests counseling you get a number or responses claiming that counseling for men does more harm than good.
Cham, I honestly do not know. I think that most of the posts that are critical of counseling here refer to marital counseling with a therapist that sucks.
But men in general are somewhat loathe to go to counseling, that is why I wanted to hide the therapist in a doctor's office.
Kinda what I do now that I think of it! 8)
Trey
*You are simply a dullard bent on showing others that you are superior in some way, and not a person who thinks about what truth really is.*
I AM superior, in that I don't spend all day examining my navel; I believe in the saying, "Love many. Trust Few. Always Paddle Your Own Canoe"; and I an not attracted to weak whiny men, nor do I think there is any shortage of non-weak whiny men in our country.
It's just some of the whiners would have you think everybody is on board the men-are-victims bandwagon. Not true. Not true. And if any of you guys really want to help yourselves, you'll jump off soon and start working individually on your own happiness/needs because the "I am a victim" crowd never seems to get happy, whether whiny women or men.
Hope that helps. Have a great Thursday everyone!
*Would it help if people started men's health clinics that were advertised as medical but also offered extensive psychological services? *
I think the problem for this population of men might be insurance/payment, not lack of services. If the money for the services were there, more men would go if it were free.
*Sad_Dad said...
Mary,
Give it a rest I know people like you.*
LOL. And I used to know men like you, who think "Give it a rest little lady" is all you'd need to do to keep someone from commenting on an open public thread. No wonder you call yourself SadDad. Lol -- good luck buddy!
* If this was 1959, would he still have loaded up with a pistol and 2 rifles and gone on a rampage across two counties and become national news?
Or would he have just taken the pistol and shot whoever was nearest and then himself, and become a "bizarre murder-suicide" that would only be local news?
Or would he have just killed himself alone, and never even made the news at all?*
I'm going to guess... he would have gone home and smacked around his old lady, and probably had ugly words for his mother/grandmother. Maybe even hit a kid or two -- I mean, if you can shoot an 18month old down, you're pretty low. Course the baddie laws that said "no more" to the smacking arounds no doubt leaves some men pent up. Too bad they never were involved in a disciplinary system that taught them how to act as men, handle pressure, and channel aggression properly. Sometimes a good nun or two takes out the need for understanding by a good psychologist later. More Catholic/military schools for the young bucks can prevent sadsacks like this from acting out later in life, if you ask me.
I disagree. If these mass shootings really are happening more frequently now than in the past, it is important to study them.
Maybe, maybe not. For one thing, we have a lot more people. Are mass shootings really more prevalent relative to population? Second, gun laws are more restrictive now, not less. Third, more people means more people to shoot. Population densities may not have been high enough to effect a mass casualty shooting. Fourth, modern instant media plays up the sensationalism of the event. In 1959 you probably wouldn't even have heard about a mass murder unless it happened in your town.
Mary,
You don't know the first thing about me! And most men are whiney because of women like you who think their better than everyone else and turn your nose up on everyone you think is below you.
All I need to know about you is that your not objective when it comes to mens issues, you can't possibly know what it's like to be a man because your a women that is close minded. In your eyes it's the vision women=good and man=bad (evil). End of story and I will not respond to you form this point forward because it would be pointless.
*You don't know the first thing about me! And most men are whiney because of women like you who think their better than everyone else and turn your nose up on everyone you think is below you.*
Turn up my nose? Hello??? I merely responded to you personally, when you directed this at me: "Give it a rest I know people like you.*"
So maybe you should shut the trap a lil bit, and not think that if you disagree with someone, you know "people like you."
Look, you made me laugh because your comment made you look stupid. I joked back at you -- grow up and don't dish out what you can't take back (even from a ... dreaded woman!!)
For the record, I suspect I have known -- intimately -- many many more men than you. I know that you believe you're being a man automatically trumps your opinion over mine, but if that were true re. men, then sadly, only loser men would be represented.
* In your eyes it's the vision women=good and man=bad (evil). *
No. I think you have me mixed up with your stereotyped idea of women (perhaps the One that Done You Wrong.) Clearly, if you re-read my comments, you will see I reject the idea of whiny-men-as-victim, and know that they are truly in a minority.
(Hint: I wrote this upthread: There are still plenty of good men out here, if you know where to look for them and reject the "all men are societal victims" push.
And this:
"Again, the unrelated man -- the deputy -- who lost his wife and 18 month old, and who is a single parent to his 4 month old --- how come nobody ever asks what keeps men like that getting up and going out and doing it right as a man, despite the unfair difficulties life has now thrown his way? Sometimes you have to display disgust with the weak men, not make excuses, in order to not encourage others that this is a way to garner attention/sympathy/etc.")
In short, just because you are one man, does not mean you get to define manhood for the entire gender. And clearly, there are plenty of men who do NOT see themselves as societal victims, and ARE living happily with... the dreaded women.
Maybe you should see a therapist and work out your "all women are bad and hate men" thing? It sure seems like the feminist movement thing has done a number on your head, and you'll surely be sad for a long long time carting those outdated assumptions around with you.
Best of luck to you! Chin up, and make it a good day? Remember, only YOU control your destiny.
Blah, Blah, Blah, Yeah right.
*End of story and I will not respond to you form this point forward because it would be pointless.*
And he doesn't even have the self discipline to keep his word.
Thankfully, you really aren't representative of the grown men I know...
I suspect there are plenty of healthy people still left like me, who, no matter the stresses, would not play a victim card and give these as legitimate reasons for picking up a gun and slaughtering others.
Don't be silly. Our founding fathers "played the victim card" and picked up guns and slaughtered others for far less than we endure on a daily basis these days. In fact, it is this kind of bullshit that makes it so there is really no other way out. You are right about one thing, though, there are plenty of men aiding and abetting the rapant crimes of women in our society. If everyone picked up guns, right now, most of them would die for your cause. It would largely be a fight between one group of men and another group of men all over a bunch of female bullshit.
Call them whiney and weak all you want to, but as far as I can tell, yall are the ones that are doing all the dying when one of these guys goes postal.
Remember, only YOU control your destiny.
WTF is that supposed to mean? In that case, I would like to be destined to shoot 150 million Americans in the face and start a new republic with the people that remain. Oh? I can't do that? Well, what can I do, then? Only a dumbass thinks that only they control their own destiny in a world so heavily monitored and controlled. You can't even "control your own destiny" with regard to wearing your seat belt, FFS!
*Only a dumbass thinks that only they control their own destiny in a world so heavily monitored and controlled. You can't even "control your own destiny" with regard to wearing your seat belt, FFS!*
Lol. I was thinking of freedoms WAAAAYYY more broad than the ability to show the man by not buckling up.
Try these: Not happy where you're at? You're free to pick up and move. Don't like your job? You're free to go out and find another? Wrong career choice? Why, you're free to return to school and up your credentials, and/or break into a new field. Don't like who you're dating? Try someone fresh.
Those kinds of bigger freedoms.
Of course, if you've already committed via marraige; have rebelled against the educational system by dropping out early; or haven't saved your pennies when they were coming in, then naturally, your choices will be limited. Still though, make a few lifestyle changes and you too can have those freedoms back.
Honestly, sometimes I think those who would whine about having to pay a fine if they are not buckled (and of course, you have the right to disobey the laws provided you're willing to pay the consequences) need to rethink what true freedom is.
There's plenty still out there, providing you work hard for it, stop the whining, and recognize: yes indeed, your future is in your own hands. Take responsibility for it, and stop blaming others.
(ps. There's no "e" in whiney, a mistake quite a few of you commenters are making. No sock puppets here, right ;=)
* Our founding fathers "played the victim card" and picked up guns and slaughtered others for far less than we endure on a daily basis these days.*
I KNOW we don't have a serious lunkhead here arguing that he doesn't have the right to commit mass murder w/o consequence, and who can see no difference b/w the American revolution deaths of Brit soldiers, and killing your mom/grandmother/and an unrelated 18 month old.
You didn't really just argue that now, didja?? lol
some reports have him angry about the loss of his family bible.
I KNOW we don't have a serious lunkhead here arguing that he doesn't have the right to commit mass murder w/o consequence, and who can see no difference b/w the American revolution deaths of Brit soldiers, and killing your mom/grandmother/and an unrelated 18 month old.
You didn't really just argue that now, didja?? lol
No, we have a narcississtic dumbass going around making a bunch of mentally retarded assertions that are not limited to mass murderers. You did just argue that, now didnja?
Yes. You did.
These men aren't whinEEEy wimps. You women are. You have been whining for decades about all the stuff you can't do as well as men can, looking for a bunch of free hand outs and preferential treatment by the legal system. Now, that you've gotten the whole world to coddle you and pretend that you are actually doing it all by yourselves because of your gurl power, some men get so pissed off at the unmitigated abuse they face by society on almost every level that they shoot about ten of you before they get bored and shoot themselves.
Sounds like you're the one whining to me. If I am free to not buckle up and pay the fine, then he was free to get a gun and shoot a lot people and face his consequences on his terms which is exactly what he did. And, now you are the one whining about it.
People wonder if he needed counselling. People wonder if he was crazy. He was probably more sane than most of the weenies you consider to be "real men". He did control his own destiny right up to the very end. That's what a whole lot of idiotic little wimmin can't wrap their minds around. There is a whole lot more important in life than just "working and playing well with others" or even staying alive. You may have (obviously have) "learned everything you need to know in kindergarten". The real adults in society appreciate that there are things in life worth killing and dying over.
Of course, you couldn't possibly wrap your little kindergarten mind around the very notion of such a thing, let alone even come close to understanding what could motivate a mass murderer. In fact, the entire field of psychology cannot even begin to understand them because they are not crazy and nor are they "losers". They are just pissed and they think they are justified. At most, that makes them simply mistaken. And, many times not even that much.
Frankly, given what qualifies as public political "debate" these days -- the way certain kinds of blatnantly false views need only assert themselves while the truth must constantly apologize for even existing -- there may be little alternative than grabbing your rifle, now. The only difference between a mass murderer and a revolutionary is how many other "whiny" men joined his cause. You and your ilk would do well to remember that.
These shootings always get more interesting as the media starts gather information.
Exerpts from:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2009/0312/1224242738758.html
"District attorney Gary McAliley said investigators had found McLendon’s “revenge list” at his home, adding that it listed a number of former employers, including a sausage factory where he suddenly left his job last Wednesday.
“We found a list of people he worked with, people who had done him wrong,” Mr McAliley said."
"McLendon worked at the sausage factory until he quit without warning last week. Colleagues and neighbours described him as quiet, reliable and well liked.
“Michael by nature was a quiet person that never had very much to say. He just did his job,” the company’s human resources manager, Erik Ennis, said. “I don’t know what caused him to snap. It’s just a tragic event.”
Samson mayor Clay King said he had known McLendon all his life and had no idea what triggered the shootings. “If you would have asked me two days ago if he was capable of this, I would have said certainly not.”"
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Here is a good article from CNN about why loner losers kill.
So, let me get this straight. He contemplated this for a long time. He felt the need for vengeance. A lot of people saw him as a leader and an otherwise stable, reliable person. But, no, he wsan't just pissed off -- he was a sociopathic "loser". He wasn't provoked in any way, shape or form -- he was just delusional and crazy. He didn't have complete control over what he was doing; he didn't know exactly how it was all going to end; he didn't make a horrifying choice as a rational adult -- this was all just the impulsive behavior of a loner and a loser.
The only sociopaths here are people that think they can explain this stuff away by calling the guy a "loser" -- that think that he was a loner because he couldn't make friends. If he was a loner, it was because he couldn't stand you people! However, the article was right about one thing. The more we act like kindergarten teachers running society like a shool yard playground and treat grown men like children, the more we presume to "teach" them something as if we have anything to teach anyone, the more narcissistic and condescending we become and in our unmitigated arrogance try to nannify and "child proof" the world with gun control and the infinitude of other abusive crap people like to peddle in modern western society, the more you can expect even more adult males to react to all of it in just this very way.
Until we stop talking about the psychology of what he's done and start talking about the morality of it, we are never going to understand a damn thing. In fact, all this psychobabble bullshit is nothing more than an attempt to block all that because the minute we start talking about the morality of what he's done, we're going to have to address the morality of the shit we do. And, although it is generally far less severe, it is still far too much for a bunch of effeminate wimps to handle.
I can't help but notice this man was tossed out of the Marines after a month and then tossed out of the the police academy after a month. The reason for both terminations are murky. Maybe we are talking to the wrong people, the psychologists can't seem to predict who is going to snap and who isn't, but boot camp trainers seem to have a firm grasp on who are the weak links, and are adept at crafting politically correct excuses to get rid of these guys very early in the training process.
Somebody should talk to them about what they see and how they interpret behaviors.
Ha ha, Mary.
This is a good one:
For the record, I suspect I have known -- intimately -- many many more men than you.
Lol!
So, because you've screwed scores of men, you understand them inside out, eh?
I don't really care about your arguments... but it always makes chuckle how women are so certain they understand men inside out and backwards - enough to be able to define what it is to be a man - to men themselves... and yet, you would be hard pressed to find many men who would claim the the same with women - no matter how slutty their past.
Thanks for the morning laugh.
*So, because you've screwed scores of men, you understand them inside out, eh?*
Screwed scores of men? Moi? Hardly...
If screwing is all you know of intimacy, then I pity you indeed!
(And lol right back atcha. We always have a good laugh reading these comment sections, if only to chuckle at how different some lives seem to be...)
You're the one who said it, Mary.
It's much more difficult to institutionalize psychotics and the severely depressed than it was before the courts got involved (in the 80's I think?). That could have something to do with it.
More probably I think it's a symptom of a general decline in the quality of society, though.
Lol. And you are the one who misinterpreted it, buddy.
Plenty of intimate men in my life whom I'm not screwing; can you say the same for yourself, regarding healthy relationships w/women?
Perhaps that's your problem...
And for the record, I'll stand by what I said earlier:
This killer obviously was a very weak man, who picked up a gun and killed his family and an infant child. Most men would NOT react the same way to stresses in society, thankfully. If you think differently, I'd suggest your view of men is skewed, for one reason or another.
I can't help but notice this man was tossed out of the Marines after a month and then tossed out of the the police academy after a month.
You're just trying to distract everyone from your own female bullshit. As long as the "explanation" for stuff like this is always "he was just a loser, you see...," then people like you don't have to answer for your bullshit.
This killer obviously was a very weak man, who picked up a gun and killed his family and an infant child.
You don't even know what the fuck you're talking about. A man that is capable of a suicide mission like that is not weak, you stupid fool. He may be an ass hole, and he may be wrong. But, your hackneyed, idiotic PC stupidity about how "weak" he is is nothing more than a bunch of self-serving crap. People like you don't even have beliefs, let alone some kind of rational well-thought-out ones. You just know your lines to say when shit happens so that everyone will pay attention to you.
That's what this is all about for you: an opportunity to tell men that what makes them strong is a bunch of weak, sleazy, effimate kowtowing to women. "Don't ever get uppity or violent -- that makes you weak, see...." You're just repeating what some weenie told you to get into your pants. You have no idea what makes a person strong let alone a man strong.
On a side note ... Mary seems to be very heavily into presuming traditional roles in men. She is full of advice about how "real men" behave, what strong men would do and all that (not that SHE would ever have to follow it ...).
But she wouldn't dare think about fulfilling a traditional woman's role (like shutting her mouth for once and acting pleasant). I think forcing traditional roles on either men or women is kind of silly, but I guess if you are going to force one you should force the other. Mary is a flat-out hypocrite.
She doesn't have to take on men's responsibilities, she can act like a coward and be protected, and she doesn't have to take on women's responsibilities. She just has to sit back and shame and boss people around and let her perpetual bad mood out on everyone else.
And with all that bossiness, I'll bet she's done nothing for the world. No patents, no pride in looking back at being on a construction crew that constructed a building or put a roof on a house, no real accomplishments in the world.
A typical modern woman, in other words, but in spades in Mary's case.
Oh yeah -- there are a lot of faux conservatives out there. They get all "conservative" when it is time for the men to step up and provide. They are all about traditional roles after they've spent their college days as a modern American party slut. Even real conservatives can change their mind whenever they want to and get liberated, and usually the first manner in which they become liberated is socially and sexually. But, none of them want to be liberated economically now that they have their meal ticket all squared away. They want to be as shrewish, incompetent and promiscuous as ever.
It's a two way street, Mary. You want to be a traditional woman? Then STFU and stay out of the affairs of men. I won't even speculate about the crap your husband has to put up with while you insist how deferent, modest, chaste -- how much of a traditional woman -- you are.
Please, Mary, don't feel the troll.
Shit, see what happens when you type too fast. DFTT is probably what I should have said but I am sure he will get a kick out of the "feel."
Ohhhhhh....
That last comment must have hit a bit too close to home, eh?
In real life I simply avoid shaming, scolding (and useless) women. I don't have the slightest idea why any man even gets around them, let alone marry them or live with them. Maybe they have a high tolerance towards that sort of thing, or they think it's expected of them to just take it.
Why put up with women like that? Even if they slowly turn into nagging bitches over a few years of marriage, take your lumps, let her get your money in divorce court and get the f%&# away from her. I personally couldn't take two minutes of a woman like that.
but it always makes chuckle how women are so certain they understand men inside out and backwards - enough to be able to define what it is to be a man
I think you miss the point here. How many women have you met that don't think they have the right to judge whether a man is a "real man", and to publicly shame him if they judge he isn't? Very few, in my experience. You're using "define" in the sense of "explaining how they are", when most women use "define" in the sense of "tell them how they must be".
"Did he have emotional problems that were not being addressed?"
Is this kind of like, "Did the airplane have a problem when it crashed?"
*A man that is capable of a suicide mission like that is not weak, you stupid fool. He may be an ass hole, and he may be wrong.*
OK honey -- he's a big boy hero in your book. (LMAO)
But to the rest of us, he's a WEAK man. I mean, what kind of courage does it take to kill a child really? His ... suicide mission? Lol.
Good luck buddy. Maybe some day you too can raise to such heights.
Bomb a UN school even, or something like that...
*You want to be a traditional woman? Then STFU and stay out of the affairs of men. I won't even speculate about the crap your husband has to put up with while you insist how deferent, modest, chaste -- how much of a traditional woman -- you are.*
Lol, luckily pandering to weak men is not my idea of a "traditional" woman. And where did I insist I was "deferent, modest, or chaste"?
I merely pointed out, that I have plenty of intimate males in my own life. Why does that threaten you so, boy?
Amen Richard.
adrian, adrian:
Open wide. It's time to take your meds.
Now stop yanking on yourself for a minute and be a good boy...
But to the rest of us, he's a WEAK man.
Again, this is just a cover for your own bad behavior and an invitation for all men everywhere to be super passive weenies about it lest they be perceived as being like this guy.
And how much courage does it take to monitor your heart rate and prespire -- two other irrelevant things he was doing at the time? You're an idiot.
Lol, luckily pandering to weak men is not my idea of a "traditional" woman.
On the contrary, it is. You sit around and pander to the weenies. You use obvious, in fact, hackneyed to the point of being corny, rhetorical tactics to try to get everyone to join in and enforce femininity and passivity on men.
I merely pointed out, that I have plenty of intimate males in my own life. Why does that threaten you so, boy?
Oh, so you are a modern American party slut, then, huh? That's what I thought. You're not even a traditional woman at all. You're just another ignorant bitch with little more than the most common vulgar cover for it. You couldn't care less what this man has done -- you just see another opportunity to get attention and peddle your feminizing agenda.
Adrian,
Amen brother, becareful your letting her suck you in. Just ignore her. She is counter productive to mens issues.
Suck me in? Look around you. We're ALL in now....
That was supposed to have a smiley by it ;o)
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