Questions Needed
I have an upcoming PJTV show with Advice Goddess, Amy Alkon, coming up for Valentine’s Day - to be aired next week, where we will be discussing relationship issues and problems.
If you have a question concerning your relationship (or lack of one) or any other pressing concern about love, sex or marriage, please leave it in the comments or if you want more privacy, email me at askdrhelen at hotmail.com We will read some of them on the air and answer them during a segment. Thanks!
If you have a question concerning your relationship (or lack of one) or any other pressing concern about love, sex or marriage, please leave it in the comments or if you want more privacy, email me at askdrhelen at hotmail.com We will read some of them on the air and answer them during a segment. Thanks!
Labels: PJTV
posted by Helen at 10:03 AM
70 Comments:
Valentine...a Christian martyr who was condemned to death by the Emperor. Fortunately for Valentine, he was a citizen of Rome so he merely had his head chopped off, instead of being hung from the tree of woe.
Ummm, yes, very romantic.
Simple: What does a woman want?
I know it's an old question, but I still have no idea. As soon as you think you know, it changes. Is that on purpose?
It's a trick question. A real man doesn't care what a woman wants. A real doesn't cater to the whims of a flake.
well, I sent you a question to ask-what is this PJTV? I have satellite & I've never heard of it-is it really just a website with a bunch of videos?
I think that it was Warren Farrell that said that the underlying principle of American feminism was that women should have options while men should have obligations. Please discuss this in the context of paternity fraud, abortion on demand, Amy's contention that men shouldn't take it seriously when rejected by women, Helen's contention that men don't complain enough and any other area where it seems appropriate.
reality2008,
Thanks for your question. PJTV is HD tv on the internet through Pajamas media--mainly on politics. You can see the types of shows offered here:
http://www.pjtv.com/
My question that I e-mailed you is:
"Why would any man in their right mind get married and especially have children nowadays when the family courts keep you from seeing your children and encourage women to make false accusations?"
Oh course I can already here the automatic response that we've been hearing for 20 years: 'Not all women are like that.' And then that'll be the end of the discussion.
We live in culture today that isn't just anti-male/anti-father/anti-nuclear family - we live in a society that PROMOTES screwing men over and stabbing them in the back in a way that is 100% socially acceptable for ANY and ALL women and encouraged with the high-five 'you go girl.' 40,000book titles on Amazon.com on single motherhood and half of them 'celebrate' single motherhood by choice - the other half regard the father as well, "he wasn't really necessary anyway."
The modern theme is: 'Boy meets girl get married have children. Girl ejects man. Man lives apart from his family - pays for his family he can barely see... if at all."
It is IMPOSSIBLE for a man to tell what a woman is even thinking at any point in time much less know if she's capable of screwing you over ESPECIALLY since it is now socially acceptable. She could be sweet with a wholesome face and pretty teeth, come from the best family - have a pleasant demenour- which describes my cousin and she screwed over I don't know how many men- did things no one ever expected... she can make her own money/ be independent/ in between and on and on and on - IT DOESN'T MATTER- any woman is capable of anything at any givn moment- any one with any sense knows that.
The point is there is ZERO security for a man in a marriage with ZERO legal rights- a man would have to be a complete imbecile nowadays to get married. I'm just supposed to TRUST you? HA
Reality2008:
You're taking a topic that I absolutely agree with and presenting it in such a way that it makes me reconsider.
You have to change your presentation because it's not effective. Instead of resisting that suggestion, think about it.
Word.
Trey
"Why would any man in their right mind get married and especially have children nowadays when the family courts keep you from seeing your children and encourage women to make false accusations?"
Why would any man get DIVORCED ... yadda yadda.
Choose wisely, fellas! (the first time around... Know the goods before you marry, and I don't mean the nekkid treats either. Think with your brain, not your nether regions ... or else, don't make permanent lifelong decisions until you do.)
Plenty of happily married monogamous fellas and fathers out there, reality. Surround yourself with healthy familes, and you'd be surprised at just how good it can be. Accept responsibility for your own choices, and if you err, be like Trey and wise up in the second choosing. Easier to change yourself than to complain about the system/one half the world's population, after all...
My question...
who really watches shows like these, and accepts romance answers when the giver hasn't met them/learned about their personal situations?
Kinda sounds like one-size-fits-all romantic advice, and how well does that usually work out in the long run?
Mary, is this your argument (?):
"If men had half of the smarts that I, Mary, had, they would wisely choose their partner and never get divorced and always be happy in that marriage and never even want a divorce."
--
Kind of the Marie Osmond argument (I will never get divorced from my Steven because I picked my partner very well and I have my religion to back me up).
But aside from the fact that people can really change over decades, normally discerning people CAN be fooled and external circumstances may change the circumstances of the marriage ... my question is: Why have such dire consequences for men who get divorced?
If the rule all of a sudden was that any woman who got divorced would simply be executed (then there are no problems with the asset distribution), you most likely wouldn't be telling women to "choose their partners wisely".
And although family court is far less extreme for that for men, it is still lop-sided in an unwarranted way. So all of these men - who are far stupider than you - shouldn't have even more unfairness heaped upon them.
Secondly, are you absolutely sure that every married man is happy? Men stay married for various reasons, they may not divorce, but they may simultaneously wish they hadn't gotten married. And you don't always know who those men are from their external behavior.
Last of all, you've just got this stench of self-righteousness. You are setting up people for some good entertainment ("Schadenfreude") when you make a misstep yourself. And I thank you and people like you for that gift of laughter.
Jeez, mary and reality pop in at the same time after long sabbaticals.
What are the chances of that? I guess one of you is handling "don't know whether to flip" while the other is handling "or fly".
JG:
Do you want to address what I wrote, or set up your own "arguments" and then knock them down?
Last of all, you've just got this stench of self-righteousness. You are setting up people for some good entertainment when you make a misstep yourself. And I thank you and people like you for that gift of laughter.
Well, if I'm your source of entertainment/vicarious living, you are welcome. You'll be the first to know the day I file for divorce. ;-)
No, and I never said such. Sure some are unhappy with the price of the bargain they made. But unless there was a shotgun at their head, they chose willingly.
What I said was ... there are plenty of happy and healthy married men and women who have chosen wisely. Look to them, not to blame all women, or marraige as an institution.
Jeez, mary and reality pop in at the same time after long sabbaticals.
Lol, I'm flattered you've apparently "missed me", but I never took a sabbatical. Just respond to things that I find interesting here. And it hasn't been that long -- 2 weeks maybe? -- since I've commented.
Sure you don't need some help burning off some of that anger, or what appears to be, at those who are content in their own relationships and don't buy into the all-married-men-are-victims nonsense?
Why have such dire consequences for men who get divorced?
Like what, paying child support?
The answers are: society can't afford to continue footing the bill for absentee and deadbeat parents.
We see the troubles boys with no strong male figures IN THE HOME have in schools. Breakfast for kids. Acting out in the classroom, because there is no rough-and-tumble play at home, or outside the classroom to release this energy.
Please: if you're big enough to marry and make a baby, you'll have to swallow hard and accept responsibility for your (former) spouse and forever offspring.
Because the rest of us with families of our own to raise can't afford to keep picking up your slack, with the growing number of gov't programs designed to pick up the pieces of your marital failure.
Capiche?
br549, don't quit your day job to become a detective any time soon- you would starve- & furthermore- who cares?
*Sigh* here we go again- it's 'all on you- if you make a 'bad' choice then you 'deserve' it.' That is so stupid.. you can be the smartest man on Earth choose Mother Teresa and still get screwed- it doesn't matter. Look, it's SO simple- why are so many of you having such a difficult time understanding something so simple? It's the LAWS. Here, I'll say it again.. the LAWS. You can be the best husband- make a good choice who you marry- she decides one day she's 'not in love with you anymore' for whatever reason- doesn't matter - now, as a man, because of the court system, you're life is on a one way trip to HELL. Everything taken away from you 95% guaranteed- kicked out of your own home while getting to see your kids 4 times a month if that.
Ladies, imagine if suddenly RAPE was legal-(and marriage/divorce today is LIFE rape) women would be freaking out- saying this is insane- I'm scared to leave my house, and all the guys would just say real smug, "hey, not all guys are like that. You just need to be more careful- it's your fault if you get raped."
Use your freaking brain for once in your clueless lives. Jeez.
and marriage/divorce today is LIFE rape
Thankfully, not for everyone.
Just as not all women are afraid to walk alone at night in the dark, not all men are afraid to the point of paralyzation of getting married for fears she will "turn" and you'll be on the hook for your offspring, and the committments you two had made to each other in the best of times.
If they are waiting longer, or forgoing the committment altogether because they are not up for the risk of heartbreak/financial consequences of divorce, that's great.
No Fault easy divorce does nobody any favors, the children especially. (and I say this as the product of an intact family in the heart of if-it-feels-good-do-it level of liberal marriage commitment that hopefully is coming to an end.)
I'll leave it at that...
Don't let anybody kid you. Conservatism is good for families, societies, and especially ... children.
Why are the lives of so many women driven by the lust for acquisition of possessions, and how should men respond?
Yeah, there are some families in which the man is the extravagant one, but it seems like it's about 5X more common the other way around. There are lots of families suffering under huge debt burdens because BUYING is seemingly the most important thing in the woman's life.
Why is this so important to so many women, and what should a man do if he's married to one of them?
That's actually a good question Iconoclast.
Why are the lives of so many women driven by the lust for acquisition of possessions, and how should men respond?
Lol. That sounds like a good one that both Reynolds' are capable of discussing -- they're both big "possession people" apparently, based on their reviews of consumer goods.
Why are men such fools to treat women like possessions ... and to complain loudly when the possessions need maintenance and upkeep? Sounds to me like you made your bargain, then went home unhappy with what you bought, wanting to stick others with the price tag. Let the buyer beware... (or better, don't "buy" your spouse in the first place.)
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"... or better, don't "buy" your spouse in the first place ..."
--
Which brings you right back around to Reality2008's advice.
Most (American) women today ARE materialistic. You almost can't escape it.
Now Mary will say, "No that's not true" and make a sarcastic, snotty, passive aggressive remark about it.
*Yawn*
Mary, I frankly don't believe you're married, but if you are, your husband deserves a medal.
"Why have such dire consequences for men who get divorced?
Like what, paying child support?"
Are you even living on planet Earth? Hello! (Knock Knock Knock on your skull) It's NOT HAVING A PART IN YOUR CHILD'S LIFE. BECOMING A PART DAD- FOUR DAYS OUT OF THE MONTH - PUSH OUT OF ANY MEANINGFUL/DAILY RELATIONSHIP WITH YOUR CHILDREN SIMPLY BECAUSE YOUR WIFE DECIDES SHE'S BORED.
50% divorce rate and women file 70%of the divorces. This isn't the 1970's - this is 2009- wake the Hell up! WOMEN ARE THE HOME WRECKERS NOW. God you're ignorant.
Reality2008,
She probably gets it. She's just trying to rile people up here for some reason.
Mary wrote: "Accept responsibility for your own choices, and if you err, be like Trey and wise up in the second choosing."
Mary, you are spot on. I appreciate that. I also appreciate that you are taking the time and energy to respond. I also appreciate that you are not writing the whole board off due to the posts of some of us.
Reality, we totally agree when you talk about how the legal system is heavily biased toward women and it serves to harm children and men by separating them from each other. It cost me an invisible Escalade in legal fees to keep my relationship with my daughter. Thanks to God, she is upstairs doing her homework now.
As Mary has said, it behooves us as men to be careful. As you said, even with care, we can make a bad choice and get harmed. I chose to try again, and it has been the smartest thing I ever did.
Reality, I wish you could feel the joy and satisfaction that I have in my marriage. Then you could believe that I am married to my partner instead of thinking I am just a simp who is about to get burned. I agree with MANY of your points, but not with the over the top anger of your posts. Reasoned and passionate discourse is a joy, as you chill the emotional tone, the persuasiveness of your posts will increase greatly.
And for the record, I always read Mary's posts and usually find them interesting. Yeah, she has got me with a zinger or two, but I am no angel in that regard myself. I enjoy a good discussion with Mary, maybe especially when we disagree.
Trey
"Reality, I wish you could feel the joy and satisfaction that I have in my marriage. Then you could believe that I am married to my partner instead of thinking I am just a simp who is about to get burned."
I used.. to.. be... just.. like.. you.. you are a spider hanging by one thin strand above the flame. Everything is great... but people like you always forget two simple words... 'for now.'
"I agree with MANY of your points, but not with the over the top anger of your posts. Reasoned and passionate discourse is a joy, as you chill the emotional tone, the persuasiveness of your posts will increase greatly."
Our divorce courts are not 'reasoned.' And my 'tone' hardly matters. What is more important the Hell on Earth that men have to endure from the legal system or something as ridiculously petty as my 'decorum' on this blog?
"And for the record, I always read Mary's posts and usually find them interesting. Yeah, she has got me with a zinger or two, but I am no angel in that regard myself. I enjoy a good discussion with Mary, maybe especially when we disagree."
She and people like her are half the PROBLEM. Their flippant, sarcastic attitude- laughing at men who lost everything including worst of all, their children. That's akin to standing up at a M.A.D.D. meeting where parents are telling their stories of losing their children to drumk drivers - LAUGHING at them and then telling them that it was all their FAULT.
I seriously doubt that even Charles Manson would be that soul dead, callous and inhuman. Hell has a special place waiting for her and all like her.
Most (American) women today ARE materialistic.
Most *Americans* are materialistic. That's one of the factors that got us into the economic funk that we're in today. Men included. I may be a chick who loves electronics, but generally, men care much, much more about stuff such as high-def TVs and high-end audio equipment, and sales of such things have skyrocketed over the last several years.
We tend to notice more when people spend a lot of money on things we ourselves wouldn't spend a lot of money on than we do when they're spending a lot of money on things we ourselves do, or would like to, spend a lot of money on. Men are going to notice more when women spend a lot on shoes; women are going to notice more when men spend a lot on sound systems (on average). Such is life.
(Note: I'm not counting spending on items such as food and cleaning/laundry supplies here, as I put those in the same category as spending on a mortgage - necessary for the day-to-day life of a household. If you include those, though, I'll concede the point that female halves of couples tend to make more of the buying decisions than male halves of couples. With quite a few exceptions - I get the feeling that the InstaProf spends more on food and cooking supplies than Dr. Helen!)
"We tend to notice more when people spend a lot of money on things we ourselves wouldn't spend a lot of money on..."
Pffft!! Gag. Are you from Mars?!? Women spend 10 to 1 more than men on consumer items- always have.
Yea, we as men sure do notice.. all the frivilous, 'pretty' decorative GARBAGE. I have to stand behide women every time I go into Walgreens which is every day of the week to buy a newspaper - this is ONLY A DRUGSTORE and they have HUGE buggies full of nothing but CRAP.. women's magazines, stacks of greeting cards, doilies, the most expensive catfood, a bazillion photographs, all kinds of 'special' drinks, and of course there's all the BILLIONS of 'beauty' products and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and this is just at WALGREENS.
I sit there having to wait forever just to buy a newspaper and it gives me plenty of time to study all of this and think, "you know I really, REALLY don't have ANYTHING in common with this creature- I think NOTHING like women at all- they might as well be from an alien planet- I couldn't BE anymore DIFFERENT from a woman like virtually all men- you don't have the slightest clue how freakish you all look to us- it's just BIZARRE.
Women buy on impulse and 'feelings this is why 90% of commercials are aimed at women - most of TV itself -aimed at women. It's like one giant women's magazine.
I love the way you just just tried to gloss right over the flaming elephoant in the room. WOMEN are the reason for 80% of all the consumer debt and eveyone knows it. As a woman take some resposibilty for once in your life and stop trying to rationalize like a 16-year old. GROW UP.
"We tend to notice more when people spend a lot of money on things we ourselves wouldn't spend a lot of money on..."
Pffft!! Gag. Are you from Mars?!? Women spend 10 to 1 more than men on consumer items- always have.
Yea, we as men sure do notice.. all the frivilous, 'pretty' decorative GARBAGE. I have to stand behide women every time I go into Walgreens which is every day of the week to buy a newspaper - this is ONLY A DRUGSTORE and they have HUGE buggies full of nothing but CRAP.. women's magazines, stacks of greeting cards, doilies, the most expensive catfood, a bazillion photographs, all kinds of 'special' drinks, and of course there's all the BILLIONS of 'beauty' products and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and this is just at WALGREENS.
I sit there having to wait forever just to buy a newspaper and it gives me plenty of time to study all of this and think, "you know I really, REALLY don't have ANYTHING in common with this creature- I think NOTHING like women at all- they might as well be from an alien planet- I couldn't BE anymore DIFFERENT from a woman like virtually all men- you don't have the slightest clue how freakish you all look to us- it's just BIZARRE.
Women buy on impulse and 'feelings this is why 90% of commercials are aimed at women - most of TV itself -aimed at women. It's like one giant women's magazine.
I love the way you just just tried to gloss right over the flaming elephoant in the room. WOMEN are the reason for 80% of all the consumer debt and eveyone knows it. As a woman take some resposibilty for once in your life and stop trying to rationalize like a 16-year old. GROW UP.
Why is it acceptable to treat motherhood as somehow less than any other job/career?
Fatherhood is also de-emphasized, but the broad assault on motherhood seems more insidious.
Generally, why do we denigrate parenthood, surely one of the more important things in life?
Why have such dire consequences for men who get divorced?
Like what, paying child support?
No, Mary, like being treated such that being a presence in their children's lives is a privilege.
Like being laid off and offered to be rehired at 2/3 of your salary because the prevailing wage for your profession has dropped - but your income is still "imputed" for CS purposes at your former rate, and the courts refuse to change it.
Like being subject to false accusations made in order to achieve an advantage in family court - with no consequence for the false accuser.
Like being assumed to be a "deadbeat dad" by every sanctimonious Jane Random Twit when you, like most men, pay your child support in full, and then some; while most non-custodial mothers don't pay any - and most of them get away with it.
By being picked up, jailed over the weekend for "failure to pay child support" and come Monday it is found out that you are current through the end of the month, per your records from the Clerk. How the prosecutor and the judge who asked for and issued that warrant couldn't be bothered to take an elevator trip one floor down and fifty feet down the hall to find this out - or pick up the phone to dial a four digit extension. How nobody cares that the support checks were issued and cashed and deposited in the mother's account. And how this is still somehow your fault.
How faux conservatives will wax poetic long and loudly that the presence of fathers are sooooooooooo important, and then will dig in their heels and oppose reflexively any attempt to get visitation orders enforced in a timely and meaningful way.
How, when a court action is initiated by the mother to increase child support because she quit her full time job to take a lower wage part time job, and your income has actually decreased, that to oppose this is "mercenary" and "only about the money" while she is hailed as "just looking out for her children."
How, when you supposedly have a joint custody order, you find out on your wednesday visitation after your off weekend that Mommy was arrested for public intoxication, possession of marijuana, and assault while trolling the bars on last Friday, jailed over the weekend, and instead of calling you - THE PARENT - to come get the children, they were placed in a home over the weekend.
How, when your ex, enraged at being denied a support increase, can attack you with a broomstick in her front yard when you come to pick your child up for the weekend, and yet, it is you who winds up handcuffed in a police car for two and a half hours in public, treated like crap, threatened with assault charges because you restrained her and took away the stick, bleed from your forehead into your eyes from the cut while so handcuffed, while she has nary even a hair out of place - and then when the truth comes out from the neighbors, she is not arrested, you are denied your weekend visitation, and only grudgingly released only because neighbors are telling the truth to reporters on the scene.
How, even when you get custody, you somehow still wind up paying $200 a month to her - yet it isn't "alimony."
Despite your broad-brush - and very much largely contrary to fact - strawmen, Mary, most men do marry carefully. Most divorces - 3/4 and upwards by some estimations - are initiated by women, most men don't cheat on or abuse their wives, most non-custodial dads pay their support in full. Most of us slave away at soul-sucking jobs for years if not a couple of decades because it supports our families. And yes, even though a small fraction of us richly deserve it, fully half of us wind up in divorce court, again, mostly at the women's instigation.
And then we get treated like crap. Any accusation, no matter how outrageous, is assumed to be truth which we must disprove. We're treated as intruders in our children's lives. We wind up in a small apartment living a spartan lifestyle and pay child support equal to our bills; and yet somehow before the end of the month we get the extortion call - "I've squandered the child support check, so buy this or forget about your next week's visitation."
Nothing in the world like going over to pick up the kids, and the bar is fully stocked, Mom's in designer clothes, the smell of dope with potpourri air freshener is wafting out the door - yet the kids are in clothes from Goodwill - or their cousin's hand-me-downs, and hungry because they just got done eating their microwave dinner.
Yet, when you suggest a little accountability for Mom as stewards of "The children's money" (The great legal fiction guilt trip) faux conservatives get pious and again, dig in their heels.
Things like that, Mary.
Pete, good post. I have to disagree when you state that most men do marry carefully. I don't think that most people marry carefully.
I certainly did not my first time, and looking back on it, I really did not know how to pick a wife. I was 23, that accounts for much, but I can honestly say I was clueless.
I married my wife then because I loved her and I thought we had similar values. I never paid any attention to the fact that she had never appologized for anything, how she would sulk for days when she did not get her way, how she had mood swings. None of that registered then.
Maybe I was unrepresentatively stupid and naive, but I think I was representative of most of us, men and women. In my work as a psychologist, I see a steady stream of kids hurt by their parents divorce. Husbands and wives bring them, and complain, most with good reason, about the x.
My standard answer, when I figure they are ready to hear it, is "Marrying that person may have been the second stupidest thing you ever did, having a kid with them was perhaps the most stupid, but you did those things. Now, unless your x is physically abusing or neglecting your child, you are stuck with this decision. More importantly, your child is. So you need to cry for a couple of week, get all mad at yourself for being so stupid, then we need to figure out what you can do for your child."
More than half the people come back after hearing that. It all applies to me as well.
So I disagree about how well most of us select our marital partner. But the other points are spot on.
Trey
TMink,
You still don't get it do you? Marrying ANY woman in the US is a stupid decision.
Again and again, I'll keep repeating it until it FINALLY sinks in. THE LAWS. THE LAWS. THE FAMILY COURT LAWS. DO YOU UNDERSTAND? MAYBE YOU NEED TO LOOK UP THE DEFINITION OF THE WORD 'LAW.'
What is 'stupid' is to grossly over simplify an extremely complex situation - boiling it all down to something as trite as a simple character issue- when the real issue is the legal mindfield. You need to get educated on the divorce laws in your state, federal guidelines, speak to an attorney- get on legal forums- you're just ignorant. You need to learn what is GOING ON. The whole marriage/divorce industry is run like the mafia and it is a Lose/Lose situation for you- like playing Russian Roulette with all the chambers of a gun fully loaded.
Under the current legal conditions it is completey hopeless. The laws need to change- you're a fool if you think you can somehow dance around the reality.
Most people do not marry wisely. Male or female. If you divorced someone who became a total jerk during the divorce - then that's the person you married in the first place.
Blaming either gender is a waste of energy & brain power. I know some bad moms and some bad dads.
The laws are definitely set up in favor of the mom, for the most part. However, a good person will not take advantage of that for either party.
The bottom line is --- know who you are marrying.
Reality wrote: "You still don't get it do you?"
Reality, I understand your points.
I just disagree.
Trey
"Blaming either gender is a waste of energy & brain power. I know some bad moms and some bad dads."
You're COMPLETELY missing the point.
"The laws are definitely set up in favor of the mom, for the most part. However, a good person will not take advantage of that for either party."
The definition of a 'good' person has completely changed for women. Women today just use victim status as an easy out for their complete unaccountabilty. Then they become a 'hero.'
The bottom line is --- know who you are marrying.
Again completely missing the point and making an extremely complex social and legal issue stupidily simplistic. You are uneducated about our system.
Alright, I'll throw my hat into this ring.
From what I have read above, we have here one premise that is more or less undisputed. Namely: The divorce/family court system is wildly skewed in favour of the wife/mother. The disagreements revolve around what conclusions we ought to draw from that premise. The "reality2008" conclusion (for the sake of example) is essentially "Run for the hills, don't be a sucker, don't get trapped by the institution of marriage since it could easily lead into a disadvantageous situation." One can see the potential benefits of employing this risk-avoidance strategy.
However, others (including myself...as an evangelical Christan), whether for religious, traditional or other reasons, can't go this route. Marriage is enough of an expectation in many subsets of North American society that lots and lots of people are going to pursue relationships leading to marriage. Some of us men accept the premise that divorce/family courts are rigged against us but come to a different conclusion: namely "marry wisely." Now, of course, you are taking on risk in this way; even if you think you know your partner perfectly before taking the plunge, people can and do change. However, I do generally think the risk is worth taking since there is little that can compare to a wonderful life-partner who is as committed to you as you are to her. I don't offer this as definitive proof, but anecdotally, the vast majority of my close friends and family are happily married, with all the benefits that such a great relationship can provide. They have/will have stable, healthy two parent environments in which to raise their children. Consequently, based on my own experience (and I freely acknowledge that yours may differ), I see marriage as a calculated risk worth taking IF you have been able to get a full understanding of the person whom you choose to marry.
I will confess that I have no idea what the divorce/family laws are like in my province (Ontario)but I like my chances that I'll never need to know given the quality and character that my wife has exhibited ever since I met her. My respect and admiration for her only continues to grow.
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Pete:
I got chills reading what you wrote, you are so right and I couldn't have said it better. Yo the MAN !!!!
"..even if you think you know your partner perfectly before taking the plunge, people can and do change."
HA HA. You don't know much about women, do you? Women don't just 'change' as in their character over time, but women use dissimulation (look it up) & ALWAYS have hidden agendas and are amoral by their very nature. If you're an 'evangelical Christan' then you need to read everything pertaining to women in the Old Testament.
"..the vast majority of my close friends and family are happily married, with all the benefits that such a great relationship can provide.."
FOR NOW. What is it with you people and your inabilty to conceive of the future? Time is linear. 'So far, so good, so what?'
"I see marriage as a calculated risk worth taking IF you have been able to get a full understanding of the person whom you choose to marry."
HA HA You're not married to a genderless 'person' as you put it, you're married to a WOMAN. You will NEVER know her. This here demonstrates how naive you are. There is a 50% divorce rate and women iniate 70% of those divorces for frivilous reason because women ARE frivilous and EXTREMELY flakey. Because of the legal system (& oh yes, Canada is just as bad if not WORSE from what I read) she has your ENTIRE future in the palm of her hand and if the wind is blowing the wrong way through her head one day- you're whole life is toast- you're going to lose everything. You have faith in a failed institution.
One day when she gets bored with you and cheats on you- there's nothing you do about it- you're just stuck - you have no legal recourse.. if you want to be in your children's lives. If you divorce her she will get everything including the kids. All she has to say is she feels 'threatened' then she gets a restraining order and uses that as leverage- thousands of women do it everyday in family court- it's the new system- a complete and total institutional fraud.
So you will be living with your wife in a sexless marriage while she is having sex with another man and you will just have to sit there and take it, because if you get into so much as an argument or try to hold her accountable, she'll just call the police and they will automatically arrest you because of the must arrest DV policies (get educated) & that will guarantee she gets everything in court.
Since I am very happy in my marriage, and though I had been divorced earlier on, I thought I would toss in a few notes. If 50 % of marriages end in divorce, then clearly people do not marry wisely. Women initiate divorce proceedings because...well, that is the gentlemanly convention (odd to be retained this long). Divorce tends to favor women but then the single woman is economically, if not physically, screwed.During this economic mess, divorces in most instances put on hold, and child payments from dads or moms who have lost jobs? Want a divorce but unable to sell and divide money from house sale? Then stay together.Sort of. A divorced woman tends--generalization--to be bitter and angry till she gets a new guy in her life. A man, by contrast, enters the candy store phase: messing about with all the available babes he can find. A woman getting alimony, if it is a good sum, is foolish to remarry and give up that income. So divorce law often turns out to be anti-marriage!
Jbar, I had been thinking something like what you posted but did not know how to write it. So thank you brother!
I tried to write this several times, but it came out preachy each time so I deleted it. With no sermon, I am glad my wife shares my spirituality. It gives me support and comfort knowing that. It gives me spiritual comfort as well. Believing that we both serve the marriage as part of serving our God is a good thing. My wife agrees.
Trey
Back to Dr. Helen's original topic of asking for questions...
(a) What is the best one-sentence marriage advice you know? (The kind of thing you would tell an engaged relative, for example.)
(b) What is the current divorce rate among couples with no history of divorce? How does it differ from the divorce rate where one or both spouses are previously divorced?
(c) Even in our long-established "marry whom I want for love" culture most parents still feel they are a worthy judge of character about whom their child is dating or engaged to. But I've never heard of this being tested. Has anyone compiled the statistics for divorce rates when both sets of parents, before the wedding, were for or against the marriage?
(d) Having children obviously adds stress to life, and I know many young couples who, in retrospect, now wish they had waited a few years more before having kids to have better learned to spend time together and spoil each other. Is this a real dynamic or just a case of "the grass is always greener..." -- do divorce rate statistics show a statistical risk to having kids during the first years after the wedding?
Wisely?
A poor word to use here. What people do is marry naively, expecting that if the worst happens there will be fairness in a court, and when the truth comes out, if they have done no wrong, justice will be served.
Unwisely denotes knowing better and proceeding anyway.
What men in my position resent is not the betrayal of a mere single woman, but a betrayal by an entire system; worse when we point out how fucked up this system is we're labelled as bitter and cynical, and worse yet when we decide the risk is not worth the reward.
Wonderful, JBar - you're happily married. You haven't even put on, let alone walked the proverbial mile, in my shoes. And the litany I recited doesn't even come close to the half of it.
Really want to claim if that had been your experience, you'd be singing the same tune? I will have my doubts.
Jbar and Trey...
Thanks guys. Thanks for reminding me.
Under the current legal system the most foolish thing a man can do is to get married. The laws are hopeless and the situation is hopeless until the laws change.
All of this talk about God & spirituality is fine, but don't be so naive to believe that a woman thinks the same as you do. That is the No.1 mistake every man makes with a woman/women until they finally learn. We have two completely seperate and very, very different standards for morality, legal justice, accountabilty, responsibility, expectations and ethics for men and women in our human society. A woman can do anything she wants with virtually no consequences or at the most a slap on the wrist. Men are punished not just for what they do wrong, but punished even if they do right and are also falsely accused.
Also don't forget the church completely turned it's back on men and sold out to women beginning in the 90's with the 'Promise Keeper's' fiasco- placing ALL of the responsibility for making a marriage work on the backs of men while putting none on women & this a huge reason for the mess we are in today. I turned my back on the church, because it turned it's back on me. As a man, the church is your enemy- don't ever forget that.. of course until society changes drastically.
Pete, although I've never been in your shoes, you wouldn't want to wear mine either. Our similar circumstances are too much to think about.
I did end up with my kids, though.
Thank God. But that's because she didn't want them. She was "convinced" to take them anyway. One by one, and relatively quickly, they called and asked to come back home.
Life can suck. But sometimes it's only temporary.
Reality - while I haven't abandoned my faith, yeah - "progressive" policies in Christianity have backstabbed men. Fortunately I found a traditionalist church that managed to purge itself of the feminized Hippy Jesus Christianity.
BR - got my kids too. Eventually. After several years of hell. I am not putting myself subject to family court ever again. Period. The risk/reward ratio is not worth it.
Me and my current girlfriend had this talk long ago, and I had to repeat it only once. We have seperate places, seperate bills, finances, and except for a few oddss and ends, nothing to hold us together except trust.
The trust - and risk - is mutual. I have made it clear the one thing I will not do for her is to bow to her insecurities and give her a set of legal hooks into me. Given the bias in Family Court against men, that would make our relationship unequal.
Our relationship is equal now - at any time, either one of us can walk away. You'd be amazed how much less drama there is, how much less nagging, or demands.
All the benefits of marriage and none of the legal risks. We even had a wedding ceremony (The Unwedding, as we called it) without a license. We've also enacted the necessary paperwork for a low cost to give power of attorney, etc. to each other in order to facilitate medical decisions in incapacitation and the like. Most nights we're together at either house. We even both get to file "head of household" which is a huge tax break.
All of which may be unilaterally revoked by either party, at any time and for any reason. Or no reason at all.
The only thing is, she has to extend to me the same trust I do her. And that is more than fair.
That's the way to reform "marriage." Get the damned government out of it.
Reality, I can probably figure out to what female OT characters you are referring...Jezebel probably being the classic example. I know there are plenty of "Bad Girls of the Bible" (somebody once wrote a book with that title) but there are also positive and praised female characters such as Ruth and Esther. I do also find it fascinating that the book of Proverbs personifies BOTH "wisdom" and "folly" as female figures (see Prov 9 and indirectly Prov 31). I think the biblical portrayal of women is a little more balanced than you might think.
Pete,
I think that's a fascinating approach. It might well be time to divorce the legal from the religious elements of marriage. It is strange that countries that supposedly acknowledge a division between church and state allow clergy to operate as agents of the state when it comes to marriage. If you are religious and want a union sanctioned by your church, well and good, but changing one's legal status perhaps should be a separate issue.
Here's something else to think about with regard to the state and marriage:
The state can change the rules of marriage / divorce / family law any time it wants. If you get married, the rules down the road may not look anything like the rules you married under.
Think that's being overly dramatic and the state will never substantially change the rules?
Men who married in the 1960s (as an example) got married with the understanding that if they did what they were supposed to in the marriage (not beat up the wife, not be an alcoholic / drug addict / not abandon the wife / not be homosexual / support the wife etc.) they would not be subject to a completely whimsical divorce in which they had to unilaterally fork over big bucks.
And then the state changed the rules. One state after another introduced "no fault" divorce in the early and mid-1970s. Now the rules were completely different.
In the last 40-50 years, family law has continuously changed in favor of women to the point where normally chivalrous and dense(?) men are now sometimes refusing to marry because it is so one-sided. And the state shows no signs of letting up - there are now bill proposals in Michigan, for example, that take the cake: For instance, a man cannot, under some circumstances, leave a woman who is pregnant. Unreal.
Pete: That's also how I've been living.
Lots of men cave in, though, when the woman issues an ultimatum (basically: let me get my legal hooks into your money, or I cut off sex).
I just saw an older male relative (age 60) get pressured into marriage by a much younger woman (he's got bucks). He's weak. That's all there is too it. I wouldn't personally WANT a prostitute.
Sorry, in the sentence above, cross out "prostitute" and write "pushy, exploitive prostitute".
Thank you for your attention to this matter!
This current climate of "all women are b*tches" isn't encouraging women to join the dating pool. If you men wish to scare good decent women out of dating you are doing a great job.
This current LEGAL climate isn't encouraging MEN to join the dating pool. If you women wish to scare good decent MEN out of dating you are doing a great job by doing NOTHING to help change the LAWS- AND YOU HAVE THE POWER. HA, of course THAT'S not going to happen. You get what you give and women give nothing- so that's what you get...nothing.
This current LEGAL climate isn't encouraging MEN to join the dating pool. If you women wish to scare good decent MEN out of dating you are doing a great job by doing NOTHING to help change the LAWS- AND YOU HAVE THE POWER. HA, of course THAT'S not going to happen. You get what you give and women give nothing- so that's what you get...nothing.
This current climate of "all women are b*tches" isn't encouraging women to join the dating pool. If you men wish to scare good decent women out of dating you are doing a great job.
Most men I know refusing to get married are only out for sex anyway. So.... the problem is? "Indecent" women are putting out aplenty.
Why buy a cow when you are getting free milk already?
Turnabout is fair play, cham.
Cham (and Mary, if you're reading), here's something to think about:
I understand the assertions that you should just "find the right partner" and "there are plenty of decent girls out there". I'm just not sure I agree with them on that level.
Men tend to be more direct. Women tend to be more indirect (and possibly manipulative, or they at least have more of an ability in that direction). It's just like men are usually bigger, stronger and better at fighting. These things don't always hold true, but that's the tendency. I think all of that is factual and common sense.
I've read that women can much more easily detect lying in other women (than men can) and women are better at lying overall.
So men may simply not be as good at detecting manipulation.
If a man - who is usually physically stronger and better at fighting - beats up his wife, you don't tell the wife that she should quit being a wimp and fight back, you tell the man he is being unfair and a bully because he is physically stronger.
But what Mary and Cham are suggesting is that the man fight back where the woman is stronger. Where the woman tends to have better abilities. Instead, the woman should probably be called to task, and men should be warned and possibly trained to be able to detect manipulation a bit better.
And that's what men have started to do on the Internet in great numbers: Warn other men that women can really be manipulative, and you may not expect it because she looks like the girl next door. That's pretty much what men are talking about on this Web site as well.
And maybe now you can see how offensive it would be to call a woman a wimp and tell her to just fight back if her husband beats her up. No, the husband is unfair because he has an advantage there. And women have an advantage with manipulation and deceit.
*And maybe now you can see how offensive it would be to call a woman a wimp and tell her to just fight back if her husband beats her up.*
You liken the men's predicament to physical violence/spousal abuse.
I (and perhaps Men like Trey) liken it to picking a bad stock, and putting all your investment into it. Sure I feel bad for you -- pity. But you chose that stock, and now you must face the consequences. If you invested 'small' (meaning no children or joint purchases; no future plans/promises, like "You will stay home with the kids/work while I establish my career/complete school, etc."), you get out easier.
If there are children, and perhaps people who banked on certain promises, then the disentanglement is naturally messier.
Either way, it's yours, and not the trouble of the single guy who never chose your lifestyle (or invested in the ultimately "bad stock" so to speak.)
Sounds like some of you are hoping to come back as advantaged women in your next lives... take care what you wish for. :-)
"... and now you must face the consequences."
---
And I keep trying to get an answer for this: Why do the consequences have to be so dire for men in family court? Why does the court ASSIST the mother in being irresponsible, in dirty tactics and in manipulation.
Your analogy falls apart with a stock. The man only loses his investment, and the government is trying to PREVENT him losing money due to fraud etc. The SEC is not actively trying to take money away from the man and give it to the fraudulent company.
And then, like on the other thread, Mary gets an innocent look on her face and doesn't know anything about a court bias, and then someone like Pete writes a bit on it, which she ignores ...
Wash, rinse, repeat.
You're kind of getting tiring, Mary. This blog debate is minor, the major thing I have to be thankful for is that I am not married to someone like you. That's not meant to be an insult, that's meant to be utter gratitude and a sense of the pain and crap that other men have to go through.
Another point (physical violence vs. manipulation of women):
Some men have gone to jail for slapping their wives, not causing any damage. On the other hand, some women have manipulated things so that the man never sees his kids, ever, she simply won't allow it or follow any court-made schedule, and the court doesn't really care except to make sure that the walking ATM machine (the former husband) is forking over bucks. The latter DOES get enforced.
So I'll ask any mothers out there: Would you rather get slapped in the face or lose your kids and never see them again. And not only lose your kids, but turn over your house and part of your income and then be told to get lost?
No, really, which would you pick?
So it's not the minor detail that Mary makes it out to be. And women are simply better at manipulation, better at hiding it, and better at fooling men. Just like men are usually physically stronger and better at fighting than women.
Here's an example of a law I consider to be unfair, but others apparently don't (because it's still the law):
In Pennsylvania and many other states, there is a presumption of paternity if the couple is married that supersedes any DNA test (the idea is that it will avoid breaking family bonds or some such justification).
But here's the reality and a concrete case: A man and woman are married. The man goes to Iraq and the wife is bored while he's gone and starts sleeping with a different man. He gets home to find that she's pregnant. She divorces him and goes to live with the new boyfriend. The man is ordered to pay hefty child support because paternity is presumed under this law.
And some chivalristic men and a LOT of women think that's fair.
So here's the kicker: Someone should tell young men exactly what marriage involves. It involves potentially infinite responsibility on the part of the man, whether the woman screws his best friend or nearly kills him (a woman in jail for attempted murder ON HER EX-HUSBAND was awarded alimony from him), and it involves NO responsibility or commitment on the part of the woman. She can walz out any time she feels like it with no obligation.
TELL young men that some women can be manipulative and things may not turn out like they thought.
I guess, to use Mary's analogy, it's like TELLING first-time stock buyers that stock doesn't always go up, up, up.
People know that NOW, but just wait for the next bull market and the next crop of new investors who think it's a gold mine that will only go up (like in the late 1990s).
*And then, like on the other thread, Mary gets an innocent look on her face and doesn't know anything about a court bias, and then someone like Pete writes a bit on it, which she ignores ...
Wash, rinse, repeat.
You're kind of getting tiring, Mary. This blog debate is minor, the major thing I have to be thankful for is that I am not married to someone like you. That's not meant to be an insult, that's meant to be utter gratitude and a sense of the pain and crap that other men have to go through.*
The feeling is quite mutual -- something tells me with your attitudes toward women, society can be thankful that you don't mate again or reproduce.
And what other thread are you speaking of? I think that anger is making you not see clearly.
Oh well, have a good weekend regardless. Maybe some "alone" time will do you good ...
*TELL young men that some women can be manipulative and things may not turn out like they thought.*
I suspect most young men with their eyes open, and interacting honestly with other young women and men have already figured out the need to take care in selecting their mates.
Again, I go back to the need to take responsibility. If you don't feel confident in your choices, don't choose. That goes for young women contemplating sexual intimacy, and young men contemplating marraige.
Perhaps we could find common ground here in the need to educate young people to the consequences of their choices, and how when you're young and something doesn't seem a big deal, it surely can down the road. Maybe we encourage this type of options evaluations in a financial introductory class that SPELLS OUT the consequences of say running up your credit card bills, or of legally disintegrating a family, particularly one committed to producing and raising children within it.
Too often today it seems, young people need the schools to teach them those things, since for better or worse, the fathers and mothers can be absent from the home and such things go untaught.
Mary, here's kind of what I would look forward to (although it will most likely not happen in my lifetime):
Feminists often talk about a "gender war". The feminists have scored victory after victory in this war, feminists and woman are VICTORIOUS and far, far superior to men. Except the lowly ones who repair her stuff. And take away her garbage. And whatever. But she's a VICTORIOUS winner over scum men in the gender war!
There is no war. It's a one-sided, pathetic situation.
What would be kind of funny is seeing man after man finally agreeing that it's a gender war. Maybe a bit more crap in family court will be the tipping point. Men just drop out of society en masse.
So you call 911, and after 20 rings, a woman answers in a very bitchy tone. NO, she can't send someone out because Sue and Jill and Lisa are out on maternity leave, Sandy didn't show up and the rest are on flex-time and not here right now.
LOL
So here's the kicker: Someone should tell young men exactly what marriage involves. It involves potentially infinite responsibility on the part of the man, whether the woman screws his best friend or nearly kills him (a woman in jail for attempted murder ON HER EX-HUSBAND was awarded alimony from him), and it involves NO responsibility or commitment on the part of the woman. She can walz out any time she feels like it with no obligation.
DO that and be accused of being anti-woman.
Better yet, propose doing something to change it and rely on having it pointed out that 1 in a hundred women have something just horrible happen to them, and besides a friend of a friend's husband is just as bad, and you just want to keep women barefoot, and pregnant, and afraid of their husbands.
And you hate babies. You turd. You're no man, no wonder no woman will date you.
(So - pretty much cover it, JG?)
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