Monday, January 12, 2009

Anti-semitism is mainstream

I find it ironic that so many people/the media are concerned with whether or not Prince Harry is a bigot for calling a Muslim comrade a "Paki" (in a video from years ago) and show so little concern when protesters in Florida called for Jews "to go back to the oven" and held signs stating "Nuke Israel."

So, Prince Harry is forced to apologize for his remarks while ANSWER's "apology" amounts to the following:

"She does not represent the opinions of the vast majority of people who were there," said Emmanuel Lopez, who helped plan the event, one of many sponsored nationwide on Dec. 30 by the ANSWER (Act Now to Stop War and End Racism ) Coalition.

Lopez, a state coordinator for ANSWER, admitted there is a problem with anti-Semitism within his organization's ranks. But then he went on to call the supporters of Israel across the street "barbaric, racist" Zionist terrorists.

"Zionism in general is a barbaric, racist movement that really is the cause of the situation in the entire Middle East," Lopez said.


I'm just glad that Joe the Plumber is on the job giving the MSM hell over in Israel about their bias. Lord knows, somebody needs to.

Labels:

83 Comments:

Blogger Trust said...

I sincerely hope Obama turns out to be a genuine friend of Israel. The media may suddenly decide to report a little more fairly if their chosen one is supporting Israel (and that's a slap at the media, not Obama).

ANSWER's name is jut a noble sounding cover for the anti-Semetic, anti-American agenda. Act Now to Stop War (they only care about war when it can be pinned on the US and Israel, doesn't matter what evil they are fighting against) and End Racism (they don't seem to seen any racism when Jews are blow up).

Isn't it funny how peace activist groups tend to only protest against peaceful countries?

8:18 AM, January 12, 2009  
Blogger Tonto said...

I think it's insane the way muz have been getting away with bullying the entire world and getting away with it. To hate muslims and wherever they come from just makes good sense to me. Profiling makes good sense. Despising muslims makes good sense. What doesn't make good sense is PC and the inability for people to speak their minds....that's FREEDOM being taken away from us isn't it?

8:46 AM, January 12, 2009  
Blogger Major-General said...

Obama's foreign policy advisors have already been shown not to be friends of Israel.

9:18 AM, January 12, 2009  
Blogger Danny said...

It is never going to happen, because our Govt is too politically correct. A majority of muslims living in the US, need to be deported. Especially, when their behavior is clearly anti-American and un-American, and who are more loyal to groups that are clearly anti-American

9:59 AM, January 12, 2009  
Blogger Slamdunk said...

Good post Dr. H.

It seems that groups like ANSWER are only interested in pushing their political agenda as opposed to doing something useful with their media attention.

11:16 AM, January 12, 2009  
Blogger DADvocate said...

I've followed Arab/Isreali conflicts since the 1967 conflict when I was in high school. I can't recall a single incident of Isreal attacking anyone without just cause. The Palastenians and other Muslims attack Isreal and subject it to terrorism for no other reason than Isreal exists.

The rise of anti-Semitism in the western world concerns me greatly.

1:51 PM, January 12, 2009  
Blogger Soccer Dad said...

I plan to post on this topic later. I hope. But remember the Mohammed al-Dura case? al-Dura became the poster boy for the so-called Aqsa intifada. At the time, the claim that Israel killed the boy was taken at face value, even though Israel released an aerial photograph of the area that made it clear that Israeli troops did not have a clear shot at him. A court case last year cast additional doubt on the claim and the MSM still refused to acknowledge its culpability in spreading a false story that resulted in hundreds of deaths fueled by antisemitism.
I'd add that if you look at the FBI's hate crime figures for the US you'll see that Jews suffer a higher rate of hate crimes (per capita) than Blacks.
Antisemitism is tolerated to a degree that other forms of hatred aren't.
My hypothesis is that it shows the success of the Palestinian cause where the claims of anti-Zionism (and self determinination) mask what it really is.

5:31 PM, January 12, 2009  
Blogger lovemelikeareptile said...

WOW-- its Kool-Aid time. The MSM and the American government are in lockstep in support of Israeli policy-- whatever it is.



DADvocate-- no objective person can possibly agree with such an absurd comment-- unless you think throwing stones merits murder.

6:17 PM, January 12, 2009  
Blogger SellCivilizationShort said...

Are there any boundaries to anti-Semitism?

I get confused because the same term "anti-Semitism," gets applied to everything from swastika graffiti to violent incidents to peaceful candle-light memorials for dead civilians in Palestine.

If, for example, some person tries to pick fist-fights (using physical poking and shoving) with anyone wearing a yarmulke, that can be described as anti-Semitism, and it can also be specified as illegal assault and battery.

If, on the other hand, someone avoids physical contact but says (in a quiet, civil tone of voice), "Israel habitually commits war crimes against civilians," is it assault? Some people definitely call it anti-Semitism, and other people do not.

I have heard a huge number of actions, ranging from nonviolent to violent, described as anti-Semitism. The word lacks specificity.

Further, in response to the difference between ANSWER and Prince Harry - the people in ANSWER have little to lose. Prince Harry has much to lose.

7:30 PM, January 12, 2009  
Blogger Pete said...

no objective person can possibly agree with such an absurd comment-- unless you think throwing stones merits murder.

7000n missles launched from Gaza over the past two years, on the other hand, merits genocide.

Israel, by my estimation, has taken it way to easy on the so-called Palastinians.

Peddle your anti-Israeli bigotry on uneducated blogs, and people won't laugh at you.

8:00 PM, January 12, 2009  
Blogger SellCivilizationShort said...

The original post links to a Fox News story with a quote about "hate speech." This is another concept which seems to have very nebulous boundaries.

On the one hand, a government of laws-not-men is supposed to treat all persons equally before the law. On the other hand, if some groups are legally guaranteed freedom from "hate speech," the law must be able to define exactly what "hate speech" is, and how it relates to other legal categories of criminal words such as perjuries.

If people do illegal things at rallies, of course the law must be applied. If the offensive woman's words really were illegal, the USA government must take legal action.

Is there anyone who is willing to go on record with a legal opinion as to whether the speech act in question was in fact illegal under USA law? The blogger is described as a forensic psychologist - perhaps she can refer us to some authoritative legal or police sources.

9:09 PM, January 12, 2009  
Blogger pst314 said...

"...described as anti-Semitism. The word lacks specificity."

You should pay attention to the moral double-standard that these people use when they criticize Israel and Jews. Then you will begin to understand why it is a manifestation of anti-Semitism.

9:54 PM, January 12, 2009  
Blogger Trust said...

@Pete said... "7000n missles launched from Gaza over the past two years, on the other hand, merits genocide. Israel, by my estimation, has taken it way to easy on the so-called Palastinians."

Yeah, no kidding. They can launch missiles at civilians day after day, and narry a peep. Finally, when Isreal says "Enough" the cameras start rolling and there is an uproar--against Israel.

I'm sure if missile's were launched into New York from a militant group in Canada day after day, I'm sure the bleeding hearts at the Times would be urging American restraint. *snicker*

10:19 PM, January 12, 2009  
Blogger Mary said...

No, helen, no. Get control of your emotions, and put things in perspective.

Just as you don't win a war by killing civilians that you need to help your cause, you never ever will win by embracing the culture of victimhood and the artificial creation of "hate speech".

Truth be told, Israel is in for some legitimate criticism. Plenty of intelligent Jews are speaking up now and saying: this action will not help things, just as none of the offensives to "clean things up" have in the past.

If you truly love Israel, she needs tough love right now. And Pete -- get some help? Anyone who cheers the deaths of innocent children (yes they are) is sick and in need of help. Whether they are Jewish like you children, or the other Palestinian "baddies".

How many Hamas and Hezzbollah fighters do you think were created from the civilian population today, because of Israel's overkill and vague lack of definition in her actions? It hasn't worked in the past; it won't work in the future. The refugees in that camp -- former residents of what became Israel and their descendants -- aren't going anywhere. And this type of action seems to ensure a two-state solution will fail.

So go to it Israel-can-do-no-wrong, if you're the type that perhaps likes to "win" a battle, but don't care much about the final outcome of the "war". Because stragetically? This is stupid.

10:30 PM, January 12, 2009  
Blogger Mary said...

Trust,
Remind us again how many Israeli civilians were killed by the errant rockets coming across the border?

Somehow, 900 dead today in Gaza seems to be running up the score.

Unless y'all really do think a dead Israeli child is worth so much more, and want to say so aloud?

10:33 PM, January 12, 2009  
Blogger Mary said...

"I'm sure if missile's were launched into New York from a militant group in Canada day after day, I'm sure the bleeding hearts at the Times would be urging American restraint."

But why would Canadians, who weren't forced out of their lands into crowded miserable camps when a new state was "created!", be interested in returning to their homeland and negotiating for their own lands.

I mean, you act as though you honestly believe Israel is being targeted randomly, without acknowledging the history of the region. Either you fight to get your land, or you fight to keep it. Either way, plenty of people say there is no sense in fighting a losing battle ... and again, those refugees aren't going anywhere.

10:37 PM, January 12, 2009  
Blogger Job said...

Mary,

If you compare body counts, you miss the point entirely. If you accept body counts as the measure of moral legitimacy, the US was clearly the bad guy in WWII as we suffered a very small fraction of the casualties we inflicted.

The Israelis seem to be taking great care to minimize civilian deaths in Gaza while Hamas tries their utmost to maximize them. I note that the laws of war (Geneva conventions) require combatants to separate themselves from non-combatants. In other words, you can't set up a military post in a hospital or school unless you put the civilians someplace else. Hamas not only ignores this but they actively intermingle with civilians and prevent the civilians from leaving. This is the war crime, not Israeli behavior, which is defensive.

This is an important point, the Geneva Conventions clearly hold the combatants responsible for separating themselves from civilians.

Of course, Hamas commits lots of war crimes every day so what is a few more against its own people.

Finally, I note that despite Hamas' best efforts, the vast majority of their deaths are their own fighters, not the civilians they are trying to get the Israelis to kill accidentally.

I am absolutely puzzled as to why people want to reward those blood-thirsty gangsters in Hamas for their obstinate refusal to make peace and continual violations of the laws of war.

I find it bizarre.

By the way, despite my handle, I am neither Jewish nor Israeli.

-- Job

11:31 PM, January 12, 2009  
Blogger Mary said...

Nobody wants to reward Hamas. That's why they don't support the deaths of civilians. You take your battlegrounds as you find them...

This is poor strategy.

Tell me about this powder Israel is allegedly using to clear rooms. Firing it in, and it burns human skin, doctors on the ground report. (?) Listen buddy, I know you and folks like the blogger here mean well, it's just the pro-Israel, emotional-thinking echo chamber doesn't permit other practical honest advocates who can intelligently summarize the results of such actions: it ain't working, unless indeed you tally success in the numbers of humans killed.

Think it over, and come back and see where you're at in 6 months? I'm confident in what I'd advice... and it's not this. And please, no more "you miss the point" condescension." It's not that I mind your arrogance so much (I'm rubber and rather hardened to such); it's that you can't see how stupid the actions you are defending really are, and in the end, stupidity costs human lives. Maybe even on your side. Again, think about it friend?

1:38 AM, January 13, 2009  
Blogger Jack said...

This is going to be included in a round up of posts about the war.

Mary,

A couple of comments. Every country should be criticized including Israel, but it needs to be legitimate criticism and balanced.

There are a ton of wholes in your thesis here. But for kicks let's play for a minute.

Let's start

How many Hamas and Hezzbollah fighters do you think were created from the civilian population today, because of Israel's overkill and vague lack of definition in her actions?

That is speculative and not based upon fact. It ignores a number of factors and studies. It ignores the reality that Hamas is forcing residents of Gaza to serve as human shields. How many parents are furious with Hamas for using their childre as human shields. The videos of this are all over YouTube.

Israel's overkill and vague lack of definition in her actions

How do you define overkill. That is pretty vague. If you read the news then you are aware that Hamas fighters intentionally wear civilian clothing. If they die they hope to be counted as civilians. So the real count of civilians versus terrorists is different from what the media reports.

I mean, you act as though you honestly believe Israel is being targeted randomly, without acknowledging the history of the region

That is another specious statement. We can dig into it in any number of ways. Should we talk about how the Ottoman Empire was carved up and countries were created out of nothing.

Should we talk about the riots in Hebron in'29 and '36. Israel didn't exist then, but Arabs still killed Jews.

Should we talk about how Gaza was controlled by Egypt and the West Bank run by Jordan from 1948-'67. Why didn't Egypt or Jordan offer the land to Palestinians.

So what I am saying is that you can't just jump in here with unsupported statements and expect to be taken seriously.

But let's get back to random targeting.Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005. Look at this article from CNN and tell me what you see. It was chaos, utter chaos. Do you blame that on Israel.

The rockets that are fired into Israel are not aimed at military targets. They are fired indiscriminately at homes, schools and supermarkets.

Continued in next comment.

2:09 AM, January 13, 2009  
Blogger Jack said...

Tell me about this powder Israel is allegedly using to clear rooms. Firing it in, and it burns human skin, doctors on the ground report

Do you understand what allegedly means? That means that as of now it has not been proven to be true. More speculation on your part. Not a very strong way to argue. I suppose that you'll allege that I am part of the Pro-Israel crowd. How'd you refer to us, oh yes,

it's just the pro-Israel, emotional-thinking echo chamber doesn't permit other practical honest advocates who can intelligently summarize the results of such actions:

That is gibberish. It is 22 words that say very little. Here let me help. You could have said the "The Pro-Israel crowd bias prevents honest analysis."

You can thank me later.

And please, no more "you miss the point" condescension."

I know, it is rough being told that you are wrong, but you are wrong.

This is an ideological war that is being fought here. You're dealing with a terrorist organization that advocates the destruction of a state.

You're dealing with protests that turn violent. Protests in which people yell that Hitler should have finished the job or Jews to the ovens. That is blatant antisemitism.

You're ignoring the rise in antisemitic acts throughout the world. Synagogues that are firebombed, schools that are vandalized.

You're ignoring articles in British newspaper that say it is not safe to be Jewish in Britain.

And what do the organizers of these protests do, they minimize the problem and point the finger elsewhere.

If they were truly the humanitarians they make themselves out to be they'd play this differently. They'd condemn the acts. They'd be very public in their condemnations and they'd make a point of protesting these other injustices.

But they don't. They're hypocrites of the first order.

So dear Mary while I mourn the loss of life, I also applaud the actions of Israel. History has proven that sometimes the best way to bring people to the negotiating table is by the use of force.

I'll end this now. Just be glad that there are people in the world who spend time reading between the lines and don't accept simple BS.

2:22 AM, January 13, 2009  
Blogger Mary said...

Oh, go to bed Jack. And dream of the Nazi monsters chasing you until you can obliterate the bad guys...

And please, no dear Mary. Enough with the emotional thinking, dahling. And the 3-second pundits too, eh? You get what you pay for, afterall...

3:08 AM, January 13, 2009  
Blogger Mary said...

*sniff, sniff*

Say, does it smell like sockpuppet in here to anyone?

3:09 AM, January 13, 2009  
Blogger Rob Fedders said...

Gee, I'd like to have an opinion on Israel, but here in Canada, such racy shenanigans as actually thinking and speaking about Israel can quickly land you in a lot of legal hotwater.

In fact, Canada actually has a citizen currently in jail for questioning Israel. Get that right - you can be imprisoned here for questioning historical facts. (Tell me again about how much you hate Christians for the Inquisition?)

So... I know nothing of Israel.

In fact, all I know is that there are gobs of Hate Speech Laws here in regard to Israel.

Now, that may be because of a wild anti-semitism that once gripped the world, you may say. However, I would like to point out that the only other people who advocate for Hate Speech Laws are feminists, environuts and other racial minorities. In all cases, these groups try to curb free speech because their arguments are sick and don't pass the smell test... they can't defend the arguments because they are just plain wrong. Israel/Zionists are different, though, they are only protecting the truth!?!?!

So, I don't have an opinion on Isreal because I absolutely know that I am not 100% informed on the subject - and, in fact, neither are most of you.

And who's fault is that?

At least I leave Israel and their politics alone - which is more than they can say about me in my country of Canada.

This is just like the situation of anyone DARING to criticize women, get's screached at for being a misogynist.

6:03 AM, January 13, 2009  
Blogger Nilk said...

Remind us again how many Israeli civilians were killed by the errant rockets coming across the border?

Mary, perhaps there are so few Israeli children killed by "errant rockets" because the Israelis felt that it was important to ensure that homes and schools and workplaces had bomb shelters.

Not like those poor, misunderstood and oppressed Hamas supporters who receive so much in aid (financial and material) and always manage to find armaments yet still can't build a bomb shelter to protect the children that romp around the streets.

/snark

6:50 AM, January 13, 2009  
Blogger br549 said...

I do agree with Jack on many things. The breakup of the Ottoman Empire after WWI and the creation out of thin air of countries like Pakistan come to mind rather quickly. Palestine has been a pawn in a game for quite some time. Current history, say from WWI on out, is just the latest tactics to attempt the continuing destruction of Zion. Bringing women and children into it is intentional on Islam's part. It gets sympathy from the marys of the world.

I am no historical oracle on the middle east, quite the opposite. But much is written, and much can be learned. It is plain to me Islam wants the Jews destroyed. It is plain to anyone who has read any history of the area. It is plain Iran wants it. And at least they are open and straight forward about it. If these things were not so, there would be none of this.
I do remember a statement made by Golda Meir at one time where she said something like, this will stop when they learn to love their own children as much as they hate ours.

It's also Biblical. But to go into that would just cause a whole lot of shrieking from all corners.

Speaking of Canada, I remember Toronto was awash in "Paki" jokes in the 70's when I first starting traveling up there to do work.

6:55 AM, January 13, 2009  
Blogger robert_m_sykes said...

Over at EU Referendum, it was pointed out, correctly, that the insult in the phrase "little Paki friend" is "little." This is not so much racist as elitist/classist, and "little" reflects the basic attitude of all ruling classes (ours included) to the people they rule.

7:35 AM, January 13, 2009  
Blogger br549 said...

I agree, robert sykes. After all, Harry Reid called visitors to the capital "smelly".

8:02 AM, January 13, 2009  
Blogger Trust said...

@Mary:

First of all, no one is saying Israel has no culpability for anything. May some people need to remind your side of the aisle that Isreal doesn't have all culpability either.

As someone else said, if you compare body counts, you miss the point entire. Israel can't simply trade corpses with the rest of the middle east--that would be like New Jersey trading corpses with the rest of the US in a fight for their right to exist.

Also, if you want to argue about why a group in Canada would launch missiles into civilians into New York, you miss the point entirely. That is unlikely here, thankfully. I was painting a perspective that would illustrate what life in Israel is like. But I guess it is easier to twist the story than talk on point. Some things are so obvious that only intellectuals can ignore them.

I'm also not buying the exuse that, because of something that happened in 1948, that it justifies strapping bombs to young palestinians and having them blow themselves up to kill Jewish families that weren't even born at that time.

In fact, when Mark Twain was in Isreal before it became Isreal, it was a wasteline. Many at the time thoght it discredited the Bible because they did not think there was any way it would ever be prosperous. Yet it is.

Funny how people forget that Isreal peacefully left Gaza and gave it to the Palestians, now they expect Isreal to show restraint when rockets are launched at civilians from Gaza. Yes, many more Palestinians have been killed in Gaza than Israelis. Funny how those reports say nothing of the pre-conflict rockets. That's like not including Pearl Harbor in the death toll in our war with Japan.

Here's a fact that I'm sure you won't agree with, but it is true: If the Palestinians threw their weapons into the sea, there would be peace in the Middle East. If Israel threw its weapons into the sea, there would be another holocaust.

8:13 AM, January 13, 2009  
Blogger Larry J said...

How many of those 900 "civilians" were Hamas fighters and how many were non-combatants? By some definitions, anyone who isn't a member of a military force is a civilian, so you could say that all of the Hamas fighters were civilians. However, they're combatants - an important distinction in international law (unless you're Israel, it seems).

Using a mosque to store weapons is a war crime. When Israel releases video showing a mosque being attacked and there are numerous secondary explosions, that is evidence of a war crime, only the crime is the fault of those who put the weapons there. Putting the weapons there makes it a legitimate target under international law.

8:56 AM, January 13, 2009  
Blogger DADvocate said...

reptile - Stoning people to death is still practiced in many Muslim countries. Please show me an incident where Israel invaded another country over stoning. You won't have any problem finding Israeli buses, restuarants, businesses and homes bombed by Muslim terrorists.

Hamas and other terrorist groups purposely embed themselves amongs civilian populations in order to maximize civilian fatalities and dupe naive westerners. Plus they fake and lie about many deaths.

9:39 AM, January 13, 2009  
Blogger Cham said...

Over the years I've learned to keep my opinions about Israel to myself.

10:02 AM, January 13, 2009  
Blogger Jack said...

Oh, go to bed Jack. And dream of the Nazi monsters chasing you until you can obliterate the bad guys...

And please, no dear Mary. Enough with the emotional thinking, dahling. And the 3-second pundits too, eh? You get what you pay for, afterall...


Dear Mary,

You're really bad at this sarcasm thing. Is it so hard to use facts to debate a point. Really, if you are so learned on the matter it should be easy for you to provide some sources and illustrate how we are all misguided.

C'mon now, Google makes research really simple. Now having the tools to engage in analysis might be a bit harder, but not impossible.

Put up or shut up. Show us what you have got. ;)

10:42 AM, January 13, 2009  
Blogger Jack said...

Gee, I'd like to have an opinion on Israel, but here in Canada, such racy shenanigans as actually thinking and speaking about Israel can quickly land you in a lot of legal hotwater.

Rob,

I am not a fan of declaring everything to be hate speech and laws that throw people into jail.

But then again if you are really interested in learning about what is going on it is pretty easy to find out. Million resources that will give you background and a historical perspective from both sides.

10:45 AM, January 13, 2009  
Blogger Bushka said...

I almost aborted writing this comment, after reading all the comments....Good Heavens...many/most comments reeks of stereotypical racism...Quo Vadis! For Dr Helen: Unless you were playing Devil's Advocate, I am constrained to ask, 'Did you forget Harry's senseless sporting a Swaztika at some Party? Now the news his sorty into another field...Paki...?' Seems to me the time is very close for the demise of Royalty entirely. As for Harry and his ilk....won't waste my breath!

11:42 AM, January 13, 2009  
Blogger Alex said...

Thank you Mary for pointing out why I'm glad to be living in America.

12:41 PM, January 13, 2009  
Blogger Sio said...

I'm not too surprised at the hypocrisy these days of various "peace activists" and other such groups. The great irony here though is that so many jewish groups such as the anti defamation league and the simon-wiesenthal organization are major creators of PC culture. The so-called rise of anti-semitism is IMHO, them being hoisted on their own petard.

Israel deserves criticism, more than they've had in the past here in America but the blind PC love/concern for Palestinians is just stupid given its history. Where is all the Arab support? Oh, its in the form of weapons/matieral and hate speech against Jews, not helping to stabilize the region. Why not? Because it gives those Arab countries and Muslims as a whole, a whipping post to stir up sympathy and regional/religious unity. Where were those countries when folks left "Palestine" in 1948? Oh, many of them were told to leave by invading Arab armies or fled for their lives. I also love how much of the left seems to ignore the British and French's roles in the region post WW1. Now the French are the concerned "enlightened" ones as the US is stuck with cleaning up the mess.

2:13 PM, January 13, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

"If someone avoids physical contact but says, in a quiet, civil tone of voice, "Israel habitually commits war crimes against civilians," is it assault?"

No. It is in no way assault.

It is factually inaccurate.

Trey

2:34 PM, January 13, 2009  
Blogger Words Twice said...

Tell me about this powder Israel is allegedly using to clear rooms. Firing it in, and it burns human skin, doctors on the ground report.

Presumably, this is referring to the alleged use of white phosphorus, a common type of military munition that is much misunderstood and the use of which is deliberately misrepresented in order to exploit it for propaganda purposes. Obviously, the propaganda is working.

Since many people have never served in the military, let alone combat, they are easy to manipulate because they know so little about the things they are criticizing. Also, there is this pervasive and idiotic idea there there is actually some kind of “humane” way to wage war. There isn't. You can take steps to minimize collateral damage, but it is never 100% successful, especially when the enemy combatants deliberately mingle with non-combatants.

And dream of the Nazi monsters chasing you until you can obliterate the bad guys...

Yeah, there is no such thing as antisemitism. It's all imaginary.

7:33 PM, January 13, 2009  
Blogger SellCivilizationShort said...

" TMink said...

"If someone avoids physical contact but says, in a quiet, civil tone of voice, "Israel habitually commits war crimes against civilians," is it assault?"

No. It is in no way assault.

It is factually inaccurate.

Trey"

Thanks for that opinion. That doesn't address whether it's antisemitism, and it doesn't link to any kind of legal source.

" Rob Fedders said...

Gee, I'd like to have an opinion on Israel, but here in Canada, such racy shenanigans as actually thinking and speaking about Israel can quickly land you in a lot of legal hotwater.

In fact, Canada actually has a citizen currently in jail for questioning Israel. Get that right - you can be imprisoned here for questioning historical facts. (Tell me again about how much you hate Christians for the Inquisition?)

So... I know nothing of Israel.

In fact, all I know is that there are gobs of Hate Speech Laws here in regard to Israel.

Now, that may be because of a wild anti-semitism that once gripped the world, you may say. However, I would like to point out that the only other people who advocate for Hate Speech Laws are feminists, environuts and other racial minorities. In all cases, these groups try to curb free speech because their arguments are sick and don't pass the smell test... they can't defend the arguments because they are just plain wrong. Israel/Zionists are different, though, they are only protecting the truth!?!?!

So, I don't have an opinion on Isreal because I absolutely know that I am not 100% informed on the subject - and, in fact, neither are most of you. "

Thanks for the contribution. The problem, as usual, is one of competing authorities who don't have enough common ground for usual debate practices, and who don't have an audience other than the participants.


" The original post links to a Fox News story with a quote about "hate speech." This is another concept which seems to have very nebulous boundaries.

On the one hand, a government of laws-not-men is supposed to treat all persons equally before the law. On the other hand, if some groups are legally guaranteed freedom from "hate speech," the law must be able to define exactly what "hate speech" is, and how it relates to other legal categories of criminal words such as perjuries.

If people do illegal things at rallies, of course the law must be applied. If the offensive woman's words really were illegal, the USA government must take legal action.

Is there anyone who is willing to go on record with a legal opinion as to whether the speech act in question was in fact illegal under USA law? The blogger is described as a forensic psychologist - perhaps she can refer us to some authoritative legal or police sources.

9:09 PM, January 12, 2009
Blogger pst314 said...

"...described as anti-Semitism. The word lacks specificity."

You should pay attention to the moral double-standard that these people use when they criticize Israel and Jews. Then you will begin to understand why it is a manifestation of anti-Semitism."

The notion of a moral double standard might be very useful for a broad social analysis. Again, saying that anti-Semitism can have "manifestations" tends to leave anti-Semitism itself undefined.

Thanks for the feedback, but I think I had better ask a law professor if I want a legal definition. The Internet is great for quick feedback, but volunteer efforts sometimes lack focus.

7:58 PM, January 13, 2009  
Blogger Cappy said...

Glad and proud to have Joe Plumber as a fellow Ohioan. Let's cut the crap. Physical violence is the right answer to violent Jew hating attacks. It's the right answer for Israel, and would have been the right answer in 1492 Spain, 1938 Germany, or 1931 Poland. too.

8:18 PM, January 13, 2009  
Blogger Pete said...

And Pete -- get some help? Anyone who cheers the deaths of innocent children (yes they are) is sick and in need of help. Whether they are Jewish like you children, or the other Palestinian "baddies".

And Mary - kiss my butt. Know what you call a school with a mortar emplacement on it, under the Geneva conventions?

"Legitimate military target."

Know who is the offender under those same Geneva accords?

The people who put the emplacement there.

I have zero sympathy for a people who murder their children by using them as human shields.

And in fact, Mary, if you stood behind your child and fired a gun at me or my child, if I had to I'd put a bullet right your child in order to take you down without a second thought. Doesn't mean I'd enjoy it. In fact, I'd hate you the more for making me do it.

But after tucking my little one in bed that night, I'd drop off to sleep really easy.

8:51 PM, January 13, 2009  
Blogger Pete said...

Oh, and yes, Mary - that does mean I think my child is more important than yours. So I'm lock step with the Israelis having the same attitude.

8:53 PM, January 13, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

So the anti-racist group admits to anti-semitism, but does not see that as a problem. I guess it makes sense if you are so anti-semitic as to think the Jews are the cuase of the worlds ill, so that bozo is just proud of where he aims his racism.

The putz.

I bet he is not real keen on Bubbas like me either.

Trey

10:37 PM, January 13, 2009  
Blogger br549 said...

The differences between Shiite and Sunnite tribes have had them at each others throats forever. Iran and Iraq war, for instance.

If they didn't have a "common enemy" in the Jews and the west, they'd be killing each other. Iranians are Persian, not Arab. Shiite, not the more dominant Sunnite. If Islam ever succeeds at removing or destroying Jews and westerners, they will be right back at each other.

5:07 AM, January 14, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

"If they didn't have a "common enemy" in the Jews and the west, they'd be killing each other."

I am a calm and peaceful man. I rarely lose my temper, and have not struck someone in anger in decades.

Yet when I read what you wrote br549, I giggled with the thought of those parasites killing each other.

Trey

10:11 AM, January 14, 2009  
Blogger wolfboy69 said...

TMink - I giggled with the thought of those parasites killing each other.

Giggled? I was actively trying to think of ways to accomplish this. Makes you wonder if we should have stepped in on the side of Iraq when Iraq/Iran were slugging it out back in the 80's. We should have just let them continue fighting.

Words Twice - Since many people have never served in the military, let alone combat, they are easy to manipulate because they know so little about the things they are criticizing.

This is commonly called the head up the A** syndrome. Too many people have an opinion on things they have no clue, and this seems especially true to military issues.

What a lot of people don't understand (or refuse to understand), is that there are people in the world who would just as soon kill you as look at you. There are some truly evil people in the world that need to be dealt with in extremely violent and prejudicial manner. You don't attempt to pet a rabid animal, you put it down.

10:57 AM, January 14, 2009  
Blogger Bushka said...

God Help Us! If the vast majority of comments attached to Dr Helen's post re Anti-semitism reflects mainstream U.S. public opinion -- extrapolation seems to underscore this -- then the future looks even bleaker for the U.S.A. The words of Wolfboy69 are chilling: "You don't attempt to pet a rabid animal, you put it down." Those words could yet come to haunt Wolfboy69 and those who hold similar views..."rabid animal"? USA?

11:33 AM, January 14, 2009  
Blogger Cham said...

Bushka:

My views, as well as many other decent Americans, are the polar opposite to that of Wolfboy69. Have faith.

11:48 AM, January 14, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

You guys disagree with killing a rabid animal?

You guys disagree that Islamofascists are ruining the world?

You take umbrage that he compares terrorists with rabid animals?

I get that you two disagree with our lupine friend, but exactly what about his post was in error?What exactly do you disagree with please?

Trey

12:09 PM, January 14, 2009  
Blogger Bushka said...

Thanks Cham! Trust and confidence in American Sanity needs restoring! Irrationality needs to be treated with contempt!

12:23 PM, January 14, 2009  
Blogger Roman Wolf said...

Well, I'd like to say, I'm 100% with Israel in this war. Hamas started it. Israel should finish it(and on their own terms). Though...being the young man that I am, this is the very first time I realized the amount of anti-semitism that many people have. I'm quite shock(probably shouldn't be) at the behavior of so many people around the world.

No, I'm not talking about the people who are against the war(most are wrong in their opposition unless they have the peace ethics of a Jainist). But all these rather disgusting anti-Israel rallies going on...it's plain out amazing.

12:33 PM, January 14, 2009  
Blogger br549 said...

Bushka - Islam is rational?

As trust put it the other day, in a similar manner to something I also said - if Hamas (et.al.) threw their weapons into the sea today, the conflict would be over today. If Israel threw their weapons into the sea today, there would be a second holocaust.

If you do not recognize that, or understand that, can't help you.

Bin Laden has just issued a jihad against Israel. Hamas fired 6,000 + rockets into Israel after a cease fire. Israel returns land to them, taken to use as a buffer zone in the first place. Do they settle on it and build homes? Nope. They move in and launch rockets from it - and complain on the world stage that Israel is shooting back.

1:03 PM, January 14, 2009  
Blogger class-factotum said...

RE: Throwing stones.

David slew Goliath with a stone. That's the kind of rock-throwing we are talking about.

There are some photos here:
http://www.nancarrow-webdesk.com/warehouse/storage2/2008-w10/img.154646_t.jpg

http://picasaweb.google.com/abintom/RarePhotos#5177200281622362370

3:40 AM, January 16, 2009  
Blogger Words Twice said...

RE: Throwing stones.

“David’s killing of Goliath is often thought of as a "lucky shot", but according to German archaeologist Dr Manfred Korfmann, writing in the journal Scientific American, the sling was in fact a very dangerous weapon that was widely used in warfare and was indispensable in many situations. It was used in Europe and the Near East from the Bronze Age until about the 17th century. In contemporary sketches depicting orders of battle, the slingers are shown placed right behind the archers. The sling was a major part of the fighting force of the day, and through the ages were held in high regard by powers such as Mesopotamia, Persia, Greece and Rome.”

-- A Formidable Ancient Weapon by Rean Steenkamp

Here's another photo.

Here are a couple of videos that demonstrate the technique.

Here is another video demonstrating the penetration capability of a stone thrown from a sling.

Slings are dangerous weapons. Consider that it is entirely possible to kill people with a baseball, let alone a rock or a sling bullet.

Just because a weapon is obsolete doesn't mean it isn't dangerous. After all, no modern military force uses arrows in combat, either, but that doesn't mean someone couldn't kill you with one.

7:48 PM, January 16, 2009  
Blogger Mary said...

Just coming back to revisit...

They bombed the freakin UN headquarters where the civilians had taken refuge. Lmfao.

My question is: do you folks really think it's just the arab and muslim worlds outraged by such actions?

How many tears do you expect to be shed at the deaths of innocent Israeli children, now that we're all being numbed to the deaths of innocents? You can only play that "victim/Holocaust" card so long before it catches up with ya folks. And a economically hurting America won't be able to support Israel militarily forever, right?

Reap... sow. Take care with the seeds of hatred ya'll are planting. And kiss them babies before you tuck them in tonight, eh? It's probably all the love you've got.

9:21 PM, January 16, 2009  
Blogger Mary said...

Here's yet another bone-headed move:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090117/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_gaza_doctor_s_grief

Good thing Isreal realizes they can't win this current action now, and is pushing for a ceasefire complete with American "goodies" promised to them. I hate to say it, but thanks to Israeli overkill, Hamas wins... yet again.

But no skin of Israel's back. So long as the AMerican taxpayers are content to finance this sort of thing, eh?

9:24 PM, January 16, 2009  
Blogger Nilk said...

So tell me again, Mary, why haven't all those civilians moved out of a warzone again?

Why did the good doctor allow his precious children to remain within killing range?

Why don't the palestinians have bomb shelters again?

Regarding the UN headquarters getting hit also, the UN are at best an irrelevance and at worst an active participant in the current rise in anti-semitic actions around the world.

Check out the Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam that the UN recognised a while back.

The one where all humans are equal in dignity according to sharia, and all rights are doled out according to islamic precepts.

The US (and other western countries that prefer freedom to tyranny) should have pulled out of the UN years ago.

4:13 AM, January 17, 2009  
Blogger SGT Ted said...

Why would anyone defend the UN is beyond me. UNWRA has admitted to hiring terrorists and is complecit in helping them hide arms and munitions. These "refugee camps" are in reality ancient built up urban areas. UNESCO is another group complicit in aiding and abetting the Islamo death cult terrorist groups.

The charade of the victimised palestinian is old KGB propaganda given to Arafat et el, in order to legitimise their barbarism in moral equivalence language, when it is clear that the PLO/Hamas terrorist death cult governments want Jews dead and Israel gone. It is no mistake or coincidence that other pro-Communists, like ANSWER, follow the party line. They are of a piece.

Condemning Israel using totalitarian propaganda from a collapsed Communist regime is really ignorant.

2:08 PM, January 17, 2009  
Blogger Words Twice said...

Who else but Hamas leaders would put their headquarters in a hospital or move about in the street only when they are surrounded by children or carry them in their arms because they reckon this will protect them from the more scrupulous Israelis?

They are abetted in this cynical game by the United Nations World Relief Association headquartered in Gaza, headed by and staffed by Palestinians. U.N. schools in Gaza have long ago stopped being just schools where children are taught. They are places of refuge for Hamas terrorists—and points of provocation. There is video footage of terrorists firing mortar rounds from the U.N. school and then running so that others might pay the price for their deadly work. Haniya and other Hamas leaders openly boast about the effectiveness of their human shield tactics, yet it is Israel that gets blamed when some of them die.



Reaffirming the Right of Israel to Exist in the Face of Hamas Attacks in Gaza by Mortimer Zuckerman

2:15 PM, January 17, 2009  
Blogger SGT Ted said...

Palestine is a war criminal nation. They use Mosques as weapons depots, they emplace mortars, rockets and ADA in schools, they don't close the schools during fighting to use their own kids as human shields and then as propaganda props when they are killed in the return attacks.

Then moral retards like Mary show up and defend them for being war criminals by blaming Israel, when every rule of war states that once you receive fire from ANY GC protected site, then, the GC protections no longer apply.

But what do I know? I've only served for 26 years in the Army Military Police, where we have classes on the GC every year and lots of discussions throughout the year. It is our professional bread and butter to know these things, but that won't prevent ignoramuses like Mary to come and tell me how the problem is Israel. If she isn't an anti-semite, she might as well be for her excusing the war crimes of PLO/Hamas and falsley claiming war crimes on Israels part.

PS, I bet the "white phosphorus" was actually CS or CN or another form of less than lethal teargas type weapon. The Pali warcriminal regime has made this charge before, as has ANSWER with no real evidence, other than "eyewitness" accounts that always seem to come from Marxists or other anti-freedom, pro-terrorist spokemen/liars.

2:20 PM, January 17, 2009  
Blogger wolfboy69 said...

SGT Ted....thanks for the service. It is appreciated by some. I spent 6 years in the Navy (During the first Gulf War), grew up around it as well, and the one thing I know for a fact, is that people like Mary who are armchair quarterbacks, don't have a clue as to what they are talking about when it comes to:

A) Waging war
and
B) What extremists are all about

As well, they accept almost anything that the MSM puts forth as gospel. Rarely, have they ever been to the places they talk about and know what conditions are really like on the ground. It never fails to amaze me just how many people hate Freedom. Because they have no idea what it takes to ensure it.

7:58 PM, January 17, 2009  
Blogger Jack said...

Hi Mary,

You slunk back in here and didn't address any of the questions we posed. You didn't provide any facts. All you did was throw more mud and pray that it would stick.

Not very impressive, but expected. But if it makes you feel good to support terrorists who hide behind children, be my guest.

11:32 AM, January 18, 2009  
Blogger Cham said...

Once one joins the military everyone else turns into an idiot.

6:13 PM, January 18, 2009  
Blogger Words Twice said...

Once one joins the military everyone else turns into an idiot.

Not everyone, only people who don't know what they are talking about, but act as if they do.

6:50 PM, January 18, 2009  
Blogger SGT Ted said...

Wrong Cham. It just opens your eyes to how horribly wrong the left really is about what they claim the Military is about. Then, when you learn that what the left claims about Israel was a conserted KGB propaganda effort in the 1960s to legitimize the PLOs terrorism by fabricating the "history of Palistine" favorable to the PLO, which was formed by the Egyptian Yasser Arafat, thru moral equivalence, coupled with the ignoring and/or excusing of the PLOs actions while portraying and condemning the conventional military response as "terrorism", you realize that the leaders of the left aren't much "anti-war" as they are for the other side.

I will also not ignore the history of the USSR exporting terrorism throughout the world in order to de-stabilise governments and then foment armed revolution in order to install totalitarian satellite puppet regimes. This is no secret; this was the stated goal of international Communism, which was led by the USSR; The Cold War. The PLO, Red Brigades, Bader Meinhoff gand, Castro, the Sandanistas, the Weather Underground and CPUSA, to name but a few, all received training and support from the USSR towards this goal. Again, this is no secret. The left is lieing to you, as they have been lieing since the October revolution, and you don't really question it, but yoy're certainly quick to call someone with a lifetime of experience dealing with such matters directly as ignorant and close minded.

11:16 AM, January 19, 2009  
Blogger wolfboy69 said...

Once one joins the military everyone else turns into an idiot

"You know, education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. And if you don't, you get stuck in Iraq." - John Kerry


And sometimes Cham, people who have been in the military are still idiots. By and large, it depends on the person. But the biggest problem, are people who don't understand that there are people in this world, who hate for no other reason than to hate (it's ignorance masquerading as hate).

As Trust put it above:

If the Palestinians threw their weapons into the sea, there would be peace in the Middle East. If Israel threw its weapons into the sea, there would be another holocaust.

1:09 PM, January 19, 2009  
Blogger Words Twice said...

SGT Ted: "PS, I bet the "white phosphorus" was actually CS or CN or another form of less than lethal teargas type weapon".

That is possible. In these apocryphal reports it can be difficult to be sure what they mean because they don't know anything about military affairs and don't care to get the details correct because of their inherent bias, much like mainstream media reporting/editorializing on firearms related issues.

It's not uncommon to see hysteria generated over weapons and tactics by people who either have an agenda or have no idea what the hell they are talking about, or sometimes both.

SGT Ted: "... the leaders of the left aren't much "anti-war" as they are for the other side".

I think the link in my first comment (7:33 PM, January 13, 2009) on this thread demonstrates that quite well.

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