Soft and Aimless or Strong and Calculating?
Dr. Melissa thinks "Men Need to Butch Up":
I have a question for you, Dr. Melissa. "Why should men--in your words--butch up?" Certainly women don't seem to value manliness as they once did.
I have a different take on things. Say that a man works hard, and "acts like a man," rarely complaining and doing "man things." What is his reward? In your mind, it is self-worth. This is nonsense. Self-worth comes from working hard and being rewarded. Today, that man is regarded as a "chump." If a man works hard to get ahead, he puts it all at risk by having a family, in a society that says that his working means that he is now responsible for everything in a way that a woman will never be--if that man gets divorced. If he has kids, he is now responsible for their standard of living no matter what. No matter if he gets sick, no matter if his ex-wife is a spendthrift, no matter if his pay goes down, no matter what. The state puts him into indentured servitude to a family that no longer wants him as a member or wants him for four weekends a month. His life is toast, unless...he never "butches up" as you suggest. Your strategy can end in early death and a lifetime of servitude. "Soft and aimless" often ends with freedom. Which would you choose?
Say, instead, a man sits around or get some half-assed job where he doesn't make much. His wife is working and supporting the family or at least pays for more than half. He no longer has to worry about working himself into an early grave, his wife can take that risk. He can spend more time with the kids and if the marriage goes bad, he has every right to claim he was around them more and had more hands on time with them--thus gaining him a greater chance at custody or at least more visitation time. If the marriage goes well, the man wins since he gets to spend more time with his kids and avoid an early heart attack. If he does head to divorce court, even a chivalrous judge will have to admit that the father is the primary caregiver. Thus, he has more rights and privileges than his wife at that point, or at least as many. I have seen this strategy work for men firsthand.
Have men become "pansies" (your words, not mine) using this strategy? I don't think so. They have become strategic. This is different than aimless. Aimless suggests no purpose. Men may look aimless but underneath it all they actually have a purpose--to protect themselves from a society that considers men responsible for the welfare of women and children but offers them little or nothing in return. Who can blame them?
Update: Vox Day has further thoughts on the topic.
Societally, it seems like men don't value or seem to be valued for manliness. A strong, hard-working, driven guy has been replaced with a soft, unmotivated, aimless man who can't make a declarative sentence or find the will to do what needs to be done. Basically, too many men have become pansies.
I have a question for you, Dr. Melissa. "Why should men--in your words--butch up?" Certainly women don't seem to value manliness as they once did.
I have a different take on things. Say that a man works hard, and "acts like a man," rarely complaining and doing "man things." What is his reward? In your mind, it is self-worth. This is nonsense. Self-worth comes from working hard and being rewarded. Today, that man is regarded as a "chump." If a man works hard to get ahead, he puts it all at risk by having a family, in a society that says that his working means that he is now responsible for everything in a way that a woman will never be--if that man gets divorced. If he has kids, he is now responsible for their standard of living no matter what. No matter if he gets sick, no matter if his ex-wife is a spendthrift, no matter if his pay goes down, no matter what. The state puts him into indentured servitude to a family that no longer wants him as a member or wants him for four weekends a month. His life is toast, unless...he never "butches up" as you suggest. Your strategy can end in early death and a lifetime of servitude. "Soft and aimless" often ends with freedom. Which would you choose?
Say, instead, a man sits around or get some half-assed job where he doesn't make much. His wife is working and supporting the family or at least pays for more than half. He no longer has to worry about working himself into an early grave, his wife can take that risk. He can spend more time with the kids and if the marriage goes bad, he has every right to claim he was around them more and had more hands on time with them--thus gaining him a greater chance at custody or at least more visitation time. If the marriage goes well, the man wins since he gets to spend more time with his kids and avoid an early heart attack. If he does head to divorce court, even a chivalrous judge will have to admit that the father is the primary caregiver. Thus, he has more rights and privileges than his wife at that point, or at least as many. I have seen this strategy work for men firsthand.
Have men become "pansies" (your words, not mine) using this strategy? I don't think so. They have become strategic. This is different than aimless. Aimless suggests no purpose. Men may look aimless but underneath it all they actually have a purpose--to protect themselves from a society that considers men responsible for the welfare of women and children but offers them little or nothing in return. Who can blame them?
Update: Vox Day has further thoughts on the topic.
Labels: Male Bashing
posted by Helen at 2:55 PM
68 Comments:
Having been born in 1970, I don't know and never could figure out how men are supposed to act. Lots of people are sure enough of themselves that this isn't a problem for them, and I do envy them that.
One thing I am sure of though: that the innocent - the non-extremist men and women - are usually the ones caught in the crossfire between the extremes.
"Sensitive" men in particular, to whom the opinions of women matter perhaps too much, catch a lot of shot from scattergun salvos against men in general that were probably triggered only by the brutes at the extremes. It's insult to injury then when many women continue to be attracted to these kinds of men, and openly talk on national media of having to "settle" for the more responsible (and boring) types.
Witness also the rise of the "alpha/beta" terminology to describe guys (it's usually for guys right?), like we're talking about a pack of wolves. Talk about mixed signals...
And of course, the only response you get when you try to discuss the situation men face in marriage, women will respond with nothing more than 'Not all women are like that.." as if it were just a simple 'character issue.' Read THIS
http://notallwomenarelikethat.blogspot.com/
Bravo! Well stated Helen!
Let me add that it very often seems that many/most women, including apparently Dr. Melissa, just want men to allow themselves to be jerked around by women. I read somewhere that men seem more interested than women in manipulating the physical environment, while women seem more interested in manipulating the social environment. That certainly seems to match my experience.
"Let me add that it very often seems that many/most women, including apparently Dr. Melissa, just want men to allow themselves to be jerked around by women."
---
That's what I think too. "Real men" are pretty easy to manipulate.
I've gotten to the point where I don't CARE what women think. I doubt I'll be losing any sleep because of the dribble that comes out of "Dr. Melissa's" mouth. I think women are going to be in for a surprise when a majority of men also get to the point where they don't care what women think.
Let 'em have it. Let 'em take over. Let 'em fight the wars, build nations, make the heavy decisions. If these women are so superior to men, do it. They've proven nothing to date. Except the Ford Windstar. That vehicle speaks for itself.
Have at it. Produce the pudding. I'll stay home and do laundry, while they get buried at sea, die in a battle in a foreign land (or our own land) and be buried there, or their bodies never found at all. Beginning with the Revolutionary War, a lot of men have died. This is the culmination of it all? Pass the wand.
Turn everything 180 degrees. I truly want to live long enough to see the outcome when these women are forced to put their money where their mouths are. The world wide cat fights will be a riot to watch. Let's see how far you've really come, baby.
I promise to be sweet while dating. But watch your ass when I get that ring on you finger.
I've had enough of this "Where are the men?" crap. Women who ask that question are betraying their own immaturity.
I think some woman are reading way too many fairy tales. Or maybe some of these young educated women haven't experienced a time when men were more manly. Sure, there was a time when men were head of household. They went to work and earned money while the little lady stayed home with the kids. The whole thing looked very idyllic except for the fact that men/husbands/fathers had more control over the family than any modern woman would ever tolerate today. The men sanctioned all major purchases, how wives spent their time, where the family lived and most major decisions that had anything to do with any member of the family. There is a big difference with a woman not having to work as opposed to being told that she cannot work. I certainly don't wish to turn back time, and I doubt Dr. Melissa would either if she was able to take off those rose colored glasses.
Manly men are all well and good until you realize they don't or won't do the laundry or cook a meal.
This comment has been removed by the author.
"The men sanctioned all major purchases, how wives spent their time, where the family lived and most major decisions that had anything to do with any member of the family. There is a big difference with a woman not having to work as opposed to being told that she cannot work."
If you're married or living with a woman today & tried to 'lay down the law' with her, telling her she is/ is not going to do something raising your voice, she will simply call 911 and with the must arrest policies, you'll just simply go to jail. This creates an environment where the woman can do ANYTHING she wants (including anything TO YOU) without any consequences- including sleeping with other men in your face. Any man who would live with a woman today, married or otherwise, is an IDIOT & needs to get educated about the laws. Women today are hideous monsters & psychotic and now use the police as their henchmen.
Although I DID get even with my last live-in gf- she was always threatening to call 911 and telling me I had to move out on the street- (even though I had a job, I had no car at the time & she completely exploited the situation to torture me and do the WORST abusive psychological damage to me) whenever we got into an argument (which was constantly because she was like all the rest of them nowadays- obnoxious, stupid, and mental & always trying to start trouble- she cahnged immediately after we moved in together- she had bee 'sweet' before). One time she poured lysol and then comet all over me, getting in my eyes. It was just a long, hellish nightmare that just went on and on- she makes me want to vomit when I even think about her- just like every other gf I've ever had- I got another place without telling her and then the night before I moved out, I called and reported the incident and got to see her carted off in handcuffs!!! Sweet revenge.. Of course then she kept calling me afterwards, begging me back! Women just never learn. The last time she called I told her I would call the police if she ever called me again and that she needed to put a shotgun in her mouth and send herself straight back to Hell where she came from & hung up the phone. Women today have no value at all to anyone and are far below human with zero redeeming qualities, but worse, these women today are not saveable- they are completely beyond any hope of redeeming themselves- without morals- completely Godless- truly straight from Hell where they're going back to when they die. It's so obvious, I don't know why no one ever talks about it.
Melissa doesn't seem to really specify how the guy should un-pansify himself, except with regard to him working harder and taking all of the responsibility for finances.
Yeah, I can see why she wants that one. And I'd say it's up to her to find her own sugar daddy (I'm unavailable for that position, Melissa, as are many other men with more than two brain cells).
But what else is the budding Cary Grant / Rock Hudson supposed to do? Develop a deeper voice? Push her around a little? Pick fights with guys who looked at his "little lady" wrong?
I've got a different name for that kind of real man in this modern age: Stupid. Or probably in jail.
My personal opinion: I think it's time that little Melissa grew up a little.
You know, as the mother of a son and the wife of a good man, male bashing really bothers me, too, but it is no excuse for some of the outright bile that is being spewed at women in this thread. I really enjoy this blog and enjoy most of the commenters and the discourse I read here. Let's keep it civil for everyone's sake, please. Simply turning hatred around reinforces the worst stereotypes about men that many damaged women have been fed by the worst of the feminist movement for years. It does no good.
Most men are very decent people and are jerked around by a society that no longer celebrates or values traditional masculinity. It's awful, but calling all women less than human and Godless is ridiculous and insulting to the many fine women out there who are doing their best to support and celebrate the men in their lives.
Part of the problem is, is that this "what a man should be" or "what a man is" seems to be a moving target.
Do one thing, you are told you are a brute and need to be softer...
Be softer, you are told you are a wimp and need to be tougher...
Get tougher, and you are a brute...etc.
Get mad, you're abusive. Get sad, you are a baby. Get hurt, you are too sensitive. Don't react, and you are uncaring....
Basically, anything men do, they are told they should do something else.
As much as many (not all) women trash men, I wonder how women would like to live under the standards and the changing rules men are held to.
Jay:
I'll tell you exactly what that is: It's not a moving target, it's a means for manipulation.
Using the "real man" moniker, shaming & blaming, and calling men "gay" if they don't do what you want are typical manipulation tactics of (certain) women. Not all women, but a good chunk.
They want you to do things for them. Do that drudgery called "work" and give them the money. Let them have the easy or fun jobs or just stay home tuned in to Oprah. Pay lots of attention to them. End their fights with other people even if the women unjustly started the fight. And on and on.
Men who are inordinately concerned about whether they are "real men" (vis-a-vis women) are just chumps who are ripe for manipulation.
I'm shifting my focus, though. It's not so much on manipulative women now, it's moving over to "real men".
Reading jg and jay's posts, and thinking them through, I am left with one question.....are all women of this ilk democrats or something?
The last sentence in jay's last post is straight from the book. They have no standards. Therefore, they shoot at any and every position a man stands on.
Unless you are married to one of this kind, or even no longer are but have children by them, only then can they affect you. Not too hard to figure out. What a pisser, eh girls?
Marriage, truly, appears to be in the final throws in this country.
BR549: This game can be played with the genders reversed. There are some men out there that would like nothing more than for women to be submissive and understand her role as subordinate to his in a relationship. All the while, in those same men's eyes, she will need to earn half the money because she is capable of doing so, and also maintain the home in an orderly fashion.
The above probably won't make much sense to you or me, but some men feel that the set-up is completely rational, I think we've seen a few of these guys show up here from time to time. People always want what is in their best interest and everything can be twisted around to seem politically correct, or religiously correct or culturally correct, never mind that the concept is totally ridiculous.
Dr. Melissa simply wants a manly man who earns the big bucks, but will also temper his swash-buckling ways to fit her specific needs. She's in dreamland.
br549,
I certainly don't think all women are that way. But I do see a lot of damned whatever you do in the marital dynamic.
A while back, Dr. Helen posted on the piece “The Case for Settling for Mr. Good Enough.” by Lori Gottlieb in Atlantic Monthly. Dennis Prager interviewed her here:
http://dennisprager.townhall.com/TalkRadio/Show.aspx?RadioShowID=3&ContentGuid=88b4ee55-51ac-49d6-a8b3-37bb0e8b7ac4
"There are some men out there that would like nothing more than for women to be submissive and understand her role as subordinate to his in a relationship. All the while, in those same men's eyes, she will need to earn half the money because she is capable of doing so, and also maintain the home in an orderly fashion."
Well, Cham, eighty percent of couples have no choice but to both work now. Why? Because women have over crowded and diluted the workplace, driven down wages, while giving the consumer and housing markets their wet dream over the last twenty years.. the dual income household. As a man, you would have to earn at least 80-90K a year in order for Ms. Princess to stay at home & have babies & I don't know anyone personally that makes that much. Blame it all on Feminism. Jesus Christ, Feminism was and still is so incredibly destructive and stupid.
Guys, it really isn't that hard. Just be yourself. If people don't like you for it, tough cookies.
Feminists want to change men. Men want to change women. It doesn't work. Be yourself and find someone who appreciates you for who you are. This goes for both genders, by the way.
I no longer care what women want. I do what I do, and women may agree with me, or not; love me, or not; hate me, or not.
Either way, their opinions are of no interest to me.
The women I care about don't seem to mind -- in fact, they like it.
And the rest: they can all drop dead.
"Let's keep it civil for everyone's sake, please"
When you know what it feels like to live everyday with your wife or girlfriend knowing that she can have you thrown in jail as a power trip using the SWAT team as her bouncers, that's the day you can ask me to be 'civil.'
"but calling all women less than human and Godless is ridiculous"
Women today ARE ridiculous, because they ARE Godless and less than human- that's what happens to people when they are not held accountable to anything or anyone- they become Monsters- you really don't get it yet, do you?
reality# --
Would you please relocate the rock you crawled out from under and slam it down on your head a few times.
"Would you please relocate the rock you crawled out from under and slam it down on your head a few times."
You must be a woman.
Cham wrote: "Manly men are all well and good until you realize they don't or won't do the laundry or cook a meal."
I disagree Cham, you are mistaking a manly man with a traditional male head of household with a stay at home wife. When I was working 60 hours a week and my wife was taking care of our kids, it was rare for me to cook a meal. I was too tired!
Now that we are both working outside the home and I cut back to 50 hours a week, I cook every week. And not all of the cooking is even outside!
Seriously, even with the trad male arrangement, men burnt meat outside. It is in our genes. Speaking of jeans . . .
Concerning laundry, I was banned from doing laundry after a horrible mistake with a bunch of lint givers and lint takers. Prior to that fateful day, I was ignorant of this laundry classification. Now I am banned for life. But that is OK as my wife neither grills nor wrestles with the kids, and she NEVER plays with them on the computer.
So I think you need to consider a bit more on the whole division of labor issue with manly men. We work hard at a lot of stuff!
Trey
It's the ugly women, the physically unattractive women who are misbehaving. --The ones who go around with chipped nails, disheveled apparel, ratty hair....they're nothing but trash.
The pretty ones---the ones who curl their hair and put makeup; who know how to wear a skirt with HOSE (Nobody wants to see someone's nasty bare legs, especially in the workplace!) ......these pretty women are the ones who are a joy to have around!
Reality 2008,
Please make your points without the putdowns. You are losing even the people who have some understanding of where you are coming from. If your intention is simply to alienate everyone, then it's working. If your intention is to find a way to adjust the unfairness that is going on in the court system today towards men in the domestic realm, then change your approach and have some respect here.
jay:
The women who are that way, if you will, are a very vocal minority. I'm returning the favor, with tongue in cheek.
I've met more women than I can count over the years, who have great business minds, are good engineers, technicians, technical sales people, managers, etc. I prefer female doctors.
These people, seem to me, to be like many men - too busy to bitch. Too busy succeeding in life.
THIS is an example of someone not even making a point AND a put down..
"reality# --
Would you please relocate the rock you crawled out from under and slam it down on your head a few times."
Maybe it would help to pin down exactly what Melissa means:
If she means by "man up" that men should strive to be honorable, to stand their ground on the right principles, to have the courage to fight injustice, to know the difference between right and wrong and act on it etc., then here's my question:
Why is she just telling men to be that way? Shouldn't EVERYONE (men and women) strive to be honorable in their dealings with others etc.?
And if she thinks that women are immune to that, that women are basically children who have to be given a pass, I would ask if she thinks that women should also have responsible positions in society if that is true.
If she also thinks that women should be able to hold responsible positions in society (which I suspect), then she is a hypocrite, pure and simple.
Now if she means something else - that men should be hard-hewn bad-asses that beat up other guys (well, at least other guys smaller than themselves) and should be muscular and all the rest, I'd say that's an entitled woman telling other men to fit the mold of man that gets her wet. It's entitlement, because instead of looking for the kind of guy she wants, she wants the world to change to meet her fantasies. You can't get any more entitled than that.
And if she's telling men how they should behave and act to be her dream man, then she damn well better look like Heidi Klum herself.
The pretty ones---the ones who curl their hair and put makeup; who know how to wear a skirt with HOSE (Nobody wants to see someone's nasty bare legs, especially in the workplace!) ......these pretty women are the ones who are a joy to have around!
I can't say that I have noticed much of a correlation between beauty and personality. Among feminist bloggers, for example, you have Amynda Marcotte who is ugly as hell, and Jill of Feministe who is very attractive. I think it has more to do with what sort of views on life a person has, rather than what they do with their appearance. Many homeschooling moms have little time to do their appearance and often look like crap as a result, but they're some of the nicest women you'd ever meet. Many career-oriented women do their appearance up on a regular basis and are some of the nastiest, coldest women you'd ever meet...
Jg: I agree, if you go on CL you will find many BBW looking for a serious romantic relationship with a "man in uniform". :)
I think one of the best examples in popular culture of how it used to be was in My Big Fat Greek Wedding. Toulas mother tells her not to worry that her father doesn't want her to go to college, because, "The man may be the head of the family, but the woman is the neck. She tells the head where to look." It may be completely politically incorrect, but I think most women want to be dominated by their man, in the sense explained above. The idea that women had no say 50 or 100 years ago is ridiculous. They had strong necks!
matthew,
Hee. :) Your comment reminded me of a Samuel Johnson quote -- "Nature has given women so much power that the law has very wisely given them little." I agree that the past was not the nightmare of oppression that so many feminists want to make it out to be.
Of course, the feminists view pretty much my entire generation as traitors to the cause, so maybe I'm just a stupid hoodwinked girl who doesn't understand that all their whining and ranting is "for my own good." :)
I think there's a lot of woman bashing going on here. Men usually get what they deserve from a woman. They will test drive a car, but they won't take a prospective mate for a spin. Sure, I married a Bad One. But I was young, and she completely lied and misrepresented herself. And there were enough signs, but I was horny, so I ignored them. I realize it was my fault.
The last wife I'll ever have is perfect. I have to pinch myself to see if I'm dreaming. She works, I don't. I watch the kids, and do basic housework. Between VA Disability benefits, and what I make with my writing, I contribute, and give it all to her, because I am hopeless with money. I haven't written a check in years. It's for the best.
Sorry to run on, here, but it scorches my buns to hear guys bitch (yeah, guys can bitch) about women. Every little boy learned to not touch a hot burner on a stove. After one time. But still, as adults, they constantly step into beaver traps, and then whine, and blame the beaver.
I love women, but more importantly, I like them. And I realize that they are a completely different species from men, that we just happen to be able to interbreed with.
The loop was closed when the first generation (out of 2 or 3, maybe 4) of men raised by single mothers reached adulthood.
They've no idea how to be men, because no one taught them. They can't teach their sons to be men, because they don't know how.
Our fathers and grandfathers let it happen. I don't blame them. The changes in the cultural and legal envrionment were not an enemy they were prepared to face. The men who built the wealthiest, safest, most free, most powerful society the world has ever seen really didn't expect their intellectuals, priests, courts and wives/daughters to tear down the institutions that made it all possible.
It's possible to remake a society "from scratch"; it's possible for a generation to learn to be men again, but it will be a lot like forging a sword:
It will be strenuous and uncomfortably hot. There'll be a lot of bending, folding and hammering. The hard and brittle will break. The tough and flexible will survive.
You know how to be a man?
Be a man.
It really IS that simple.
Here is my view.
The majority of women, western women, are users, they have been taught to take, to look upon men as wallets.
Its not them who do this its organisations, that get their power from manipulating men.
Divorce lawyers, feminists, the courts, all have a vested interest in controlling money. And since "women are the weaker" sex, its Men who have to pay and pay and pay. and pay some more.
Thats the way the laws are set up today. Your a man, your screwed.
You complain about it being unfair, your a wimp, but when you try to change the system, your a bully taking money out of womens hands(and thereby the government and lawyers and everyone elses).
Men dont know which way to turn, i have been called, a wimp for stating opinions. Because i dare stand up for myself and my fellow MAN, i am a brute and that must mean i hate all women, i want to see them locked in the home.
So when men cant win, we fight, And to those who blame men about how they hate women of today, dont these women deserve some blame, or are all women innocent of everything, because they are female.
In the uk women had the say they controlled the household, why do you think so many poisonings occured women had power, men were expected to work, and to have the house nice. they provided, for the house. yet they were respected, for being this provider. NOW its the money thats respected, not how it gets there.
Reality2008,
Read THIS: http://notallwomenarelikethat.blogspot.com/
Do you create a new blog with every topic? Perhaps you would do better to combine all of the topics into one blog.
Francis W. Porretto said...
I've had enough of this "Where are the men?" crap. Women who ask that question are betraying their own immaturity.
Here are a few more in the genre.
This first one is a poor attempt at a Sex In The City sensiblity that says, yes, men are a bunch of losers. http://www.marinij.com/ci_8766882?IADID=Search-www.marinij.com-www.marinij.com
Here's a real classic of the genre that says, yes, men are losers.
http://www.sfweekly.com/2007-11-14/news/slacker-guys-and-striver-girls/full
Trust: The post was in February about Mr. Good Enough.
Reality2008: One time she poured lysol and then comet all over me, getting in my eyes.
I'm glad you got out of an abusive relationship and that the police believed you.
reality2008,
"THIS is an example of someone not even making a point AND a put down..
"reality# --"
You are correct.
Oligonicella,
That was uncalled for--please don't talk to other regular commenters like that on this board--even if you disagree or dislike what they say. It is just as bad as what you feel that reality2008 said. What you said was incredibly insensitive and rude. You could have made your point without the nastiness.
I think that the radical feminists have messed it up for everybody. I think that the average moderate man OR woman is frustrated as can be. Everything is nitpicked. People feel like they can't be themselves. At your job you may be expected to act one way, at home another, out with friends another, at a university, another. I really see moderate women as the strongest force to stop this nonsense. As it stands, professional men can lose their jobs for fighting the radical feminists. I think decent women could do alot to straighten this mess out but, perhaps uncomfortable with confrontation, are usually silent.
Melissa comes across to me more as a slightly immature high school girl.
My father was born before the Great Depression; my mother came from a 2-room shack in Appalachia. My Dad enlisted the day after Pearl Harbor; my mother was a nurse in the Navy. I was one of 8 kids, born in the late '60's, and I was told very clearly what a real man is- a real man is someone who does the moral thing.
The end.
You wait until marriage. You marry the Right Girl. A wife works when she must, but a man does his best to make sure she doesn't have to. The Right Girl is a stay-at-home mom the moment she can be. Debt is bad. Morals are always objective. Education is for its own sake, not for a better paying job. If you give your word, that's the path you have chosen.
A month ago my daughter brought home a guy who is interested in marrying her. I showed him my old uniform and pointed out two medals. One demonstrates that I am capable of shooting a man in the head at 300 meters; the other demonstrates that I have. He understood and was appreciative, not frightened.
I gave my approval.
"A wife works when she must, but a man does his best to make sure she doesn't have to."
---
Why is that?
...not to mention: "The Right Girl is a stay-at-home mom the moment she can be."
Why are some women so resistant to raising their own kids as a full time occupation? Do they not think being a fulltime parent is worthwhile? That giving and receiving the unconditional love that only a mom can bring to her own children is secondary to their notions of "fulfillment"?
Are women not prepared to make the sacrifice in their lives that men make in order to provide for their families well being? Men are prepared to die for their families, for the most part. How come some women aren't prepared to sacrifice their careers for their own kids?
You never hear of a man on his deathbed who ever said that they wished they had spent more time at the office. Workaholic men are considered a detriment to families and children.
How many TV or movie dramas turn on the rich dad who was unavailable and cold to his children because of his workaholic attitude led to his neglecting his relationship with his kids?
Why do some women think that when they do it, it is empowering? Or that it should be respected, instead of being denounced for the selfish act that it is?
Dammit, I AM a soft, unmotivated, aimless man and I don't care who knows it!
Aren't I?
Bugs: In defense of soft, unmotivated, aimless men; They smile more, are nicer, more personable and more empathetic than most captains of industry. Gordon Gekko wasn't going to win any popularity contests.
For all the guys who want sit-at-home women for whatever reason:
Why don't you just friggin' chain them to the radiator?
I can understand when kids are little, but if you have no kids, or kids out of the house, please don't be promoting leeches any more than they have to be promoted.
This is no longer 1850 where they had to drag the carpets out to beat them, shell the peas and churn up some butter. Get the parasites out of the house, it'll do them some good.
Another point:
Real Men / He-Men don't stick the taxpayers with their messes (via welfare).
That means if you want to have a sit-at-home for 25 years with no skills (other than the ability to find the button on the remote for Oprah), you get plenty of life insurance and you continue paying for her whether she bangs your best friend, divorces you or knocks your tooth out with a flying plate. You pay for her, not the rest of society. You also clean up the messes she makes.
Cham, it's very irresponsible and immature of you to put questions to other people at this blog when you yourself still haven't answered a question repeatedly put to you several times already, about your statement: "Those pesky women simply won't behave right to make men happy."
Personally, I've always found that making other people happy is one of the greatest, most wonderful and uplifting joys in life that a person could ever experience.
Apparently, though, in the Chamiverse, that isn't the case -- at least, when the people to be made happy are male, and the person to be experiencing that greatest and most wonderful and uplifting of joys is female, that is.
Tell us, Cham: why do you want to deny so deeply rewarding and pleasureable an experience to not only yourself, but other women as well, as it appears you do?
Am I crazy or is the logical progression of men dropping out of traditional roles in society (i.e men's liberation? ) is for men to reproduce without a mate - and I don't mean a partner or wife - I mean without a specific woman. There are plenty of women in the 3rd world who are currently acting as surrogates for infertile women - I don't believe it is beyond our current knowledge of genetics and reproduction to think of a process where a man would contribute all the genetic information to a cell that has been emptied of genetic information....essentially cloning raising their own clones
as sons (Sort of like Jango and Bobba Fet)
I see this happening...just an birth control separated sex and reproduction - genetic engineering will potentially separate women from child bearing....
Having been born in 1970, I don't know and never could figure out how men are supposed to act.
I was born in 1969, but I can't say that I ever had any trouble figuring out how to act, at least not because of gender.
Sometimes we really over think things.
The comments on that thread on Melissa's board are getting nastier and nastier. She usually apparently only gets a few responses, but they're up to around 90 in the thread about men "Manning Up". An example:
---
"This is truly progress for men.
In the past, you had to get married to be nagged by an overweight, middle-aged, entitled bitch.
Now you can just go onto the Internet and get it anytime you want!"
I was born in 1969, but I can't say that I ever had any trouble figuring out how to act, at least not because of gender.
Sometimes we really over think things.
Good point, Jack!
Maybe the real minority is what Nixon called the silent majority, only turned kind of sideways.
Perhaps not as well as an intact family would have done,I raised three kids as a single parent. No axe murderers, welfare members were produced. Loan officer, PhD grad student and computer wizard. With no help from the government, money or time from the ex. Until they began to be old enough, it did cost me a few career quality jobs, I admit. We moved a lot in search of new jobs. What I am doing for a living now is much less than ideal, as far as I what I wish (or would be) doing.
I did all chores, "his" and "hers".
For many years. And still not quite done yet. Something men know well. It's called "have to".
Now, granted, I'm a mess, but the kids are doing well. Isolation took its toll.
Real men? Ha! Where are the real women?
With apologies to the Moody Blues:
"When you stop and think about it,
you won't believe it's true. That all the love that you've been giving, has all been meant for you."
That's what I've seen, anyway.
Bravo! Excellent post, Helen.
I'm 45. 3 kids in late teens. Recently divroced. You hit the nail ont eh head. I was always the breawinner - but ALSO the primary caregiver to my kids (at the cost of earning much more, etc). After the kids arrived, it didn't take long for me to figure out what a sh*t deal I had. And I knew that if I had gotten divorced when the kdis were younger, that I would have lost them, been expected to keep my wife in theri accustomed lifestyle (read: she gets the house). I waited until the odds would improve. Glad I did. All 3 kids chose to live with me. And the courts split things down the middle (assets and income) - a much more favourable outcome. I view men who marry young today as suckers. It's really that simple.
Average Joe,
The reason women don't speak up against the BS is because they don't WANT to-end of story! Why would they? They benefit from the status quo, and the only reason they're STARTING to complain is because all the BS THEY wanted is starting to bite them where it hurts. It's starting to affect them; they can no longer get what they want-a walking wallet who won't complain about being a slave.
If what you say IS true, then what does that say about women? What does it say that they apparently lack the INTESTINAL FORTITUDE to challenge radical feminism in all its forms? You know, I haven't seen too many women do it. Dr. Helen is one, and there are a few others. The one that's been at it the longest is Phyllis Schlafly; she's been a thorn in the side of feminists for DECADES! But, other than a handful of women, I haven't seen or heard too many decrying what has come to pass. Why do you suppose that is? Because they BENEFIT from it, that's why.
MarkyMark
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