Friday, December 21, 2007

Sudden Divorce Syndrome

A reader (thanks!) sent me this article on "sudden divorce syndrome:"

Sudden Divorce Syndrome. You won't find it in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, that bible of psychiatric illnesses, but you will find it in life. In a 2004 poll by the AARP, one in four men who were divorces in the previous year said they "never saw it coming." (Only 14 percent of divorced women said they experienced the same unexpected broadside.) And few events in a man's life can be as devastating to his physical, mental, and financial health. "I meet men all the time who are going through breakups, and it's very common for them to say it caught them by surprise," says Los Angeles-based sex therapist Lori Buckley, PsyD, host of "On the Minds of Men," a weekly relationship podcast on iTunes....

This may come as startling news to a public that has been led to believe that women are the ones who suffer financially postdivorce, not men. But the data show otherwise, according to an exhaustive study of the subject by Sanford L. Braver, a professor of psychology at Arizona State University and author of Divorced Dads: Shattering the Myths. "The man is in a lot poorer condition than the popular media portray," he says. "This idea of the swinging, happy-go-lucky, no-worries single guy in a bar... that's just not it at all." The misconception was fueled by Harvard professor Lenore Weitzman's widely cited book, The Divorce Revolution: The Unexpected Social and Economic Consequences for Women and Children in America.


The article also states that recently divorced men are nearly nine times more likely to commit suicide than their female counterparts. I wonder if Sudden Divorce Syndrome is why we are seeing a spike in middle-aged suicides.

123 Comments:

Blogger Cham said...

When one says, "I never saw it coming", what does that really mean? Perhaps there is a perception problem. If a couple starts to argue more often or there is frequent discussion about how one spouse is unhappy with the other, husbands may be more apt to feel that the marriage isn't threatened and wives may be thinking it is time to move on.

2:21 PM, December 21, 2007  
Blogger Der Hahn said...

In a manner of speaking, I 'never saw it coming' either, but I can't say it was a total surprise. I knew my ex had checked out of the relationship but wasn't willing to own up to the decision she made. She set up a mind game (which I refused to play) where by if I proved that I wanted to stay married then she wouldn't divorce me. Of course she wasn't willing to lay out what constituted proof of my intentions. (IIRC she justified this as a way to be sure that I wasn't just accomodating her.) This allowed her to retroactively select an action (or inaction) that 'forced' her to divorce me.

I knew that divorce was a possibility, I just had no idea when the trap would spring, or if she would decide that it would be easier to stay married.

2:44 PM, December 21, 2007  
Blogger Eric Blair said...

I don't have any statistics here, Dr. Helen, but when my first wife divorced me, it was a surprise to me. We had been having troubles, and clearly she had created a "trip wire." After the last argument, she was unmoveable (I suggested marital counseling for the first time, for example).

I'm not sorry that she and I divorced; I was not a good match for her. I am no party to live with, as my family knows very well.

But my ex-wife was adamant about divorce, and I knew many couples who had weathered far worse than we were experiencing.

One thing I noticed, as I tried to get her to reconsider, was the role that her many divorced friends played. They *all* told her that divorce was the best option. So did her therapist, who was also divorced. I tried to remind her that they themselves were divorced, and were not seeing this issue without their own shadows falling across it.

Interestingly, none of my male friends suggested bailing out.

Fortunately, we had no children. But it pretty much ruined me financially. It took many years to get out of debt.

I guess that is the real point here: divorce is awful for EVERYONE. It should never be sudden (except when things like abuse are involved, of course). My problems were clearly in the area of communication. From my ex-wife's point of view, I was ignoring all of the problems...and eventually did so for too long.

So I learned from it.

But what an awful time in my life, even though it was many, many years ago now.

3:18 PM, December 21, 2007  
Blogger John Doe said...

If you do the numbers on the suicide statistics, one man in the US kills himself as a direct result of divorce every 35 minutes.

3:40 PM, December 21, 2007  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

cham --

It means that person - male or female - was unaware that the other was actually contemplating getting a divorce. Pretty obvious.

"Perhaps there is a perception problem."

Perhaps there is a disclosure problem.

"... husbands may be more apt to feel that the marriage isn't threatened and wives may be thinking it is time to move on."

Seems to me you're saying you think the husbands view the hard times as something to work through and the wives don't.

Could you clarify?

5:13 PM, December 21, 2007  
Blogger Cham said...

Seems to me you're saying you think the husbands view the hard times as something to work through and the wives don't.

That is about it in a nutshell. Husbands view hard times as maybe a blip on the relationship radar and wives take these things more seriously.

In my relationship I have done the breaking up for the most part. After weeks and months of trying to communicate and discuss concerns with almost no change, I've felt its time to move on. And just about every SO has said he didn't see it coming. The situation was plain as day from my POV.

6:04 PM, December 21, 2007  
Blogger GawainsGhost said...

Actually, I knew that many men commit suicide following a divorce. It's just as psychologically damaging as it is financially ruinous. But I think it also has to do with the lack of support groups for men, and that the stress of dealing with the situation alone is too much for them.

This is why, seventeen years ago, when my best friend got divorced I flew out to California and spent two weeks with him, just to make sure he didn't do anything desperate. He had made a poor choice in his first wife. She made him miserable and really raked him over the coals in court.

I took some money with me and basically told him, look, you need to get out and learn how to enjoy life again. He was renting a small bedroom in a house at the time, and we just got in the car and took off. Museums, parks, outdoor festivals, plays, concerts, that sort of thing. I didn't take him clubbing looking for another woman. We stayed in nice hotels, ate at nice restaurants, and simply drove around central California, doing fun things.

I can't say that it saved his life, but I will say that it did give him a new lease on life. Six months later he met a much more suitable woman for him, and they've been together ever since.

7:46 PM, December 21, 2007  
Blogger Sid said...

I am encouraged that the researcher was able to publish and get publicity the work. There have been several empirical works that poked big holes in the current female-slanted body of work. Unfortunately, they are rare and outnumbered.

In my aborted doctoral program, only one of the family professors was open and receptive to research that challenged the women-good-men-bad mantra. Only one.

9:06 PM, December 21, 2007  
Blogger Derek said...

One of the reasons that men get blindsided by divorce does, indeed, have to do with men's perceptions. In conflicted relationships, women often stop fighting once they've decided to leave. But they often take time to get things in order before they finally leave.

She's thinking "I'm leaving. There's no point in fighting anymore."

He's thinking "Things are getting better. We're not fighting anymore."

But, by that point, the couple isn't communicating about important issues. They've just gone quiet.

I know of several couples who, in the process of divorce mediation, went through a communication class only to say something like "If we'd had this class 5 years ago, we'd still be married."

9:17 PM, December 21, 2007  
Blogger Stacy said...

She's thinking "I'm leaving. There's no point in fighting anymore."

He's thinking "Things are getting better. We're not fighting anymore."


Derek, that hits very close to home. My first husband can't claim that he was surprised by our divorce, because we talked about it and talked about it and talked about it.

But...I do think he thought it was getting better right before the final split. And for just the reason you say. I'd all but stopped talking to him, because we were Done. But not talking meant not fighting, which to him was a Good Sign.

I don't regret the divorce, because I'm much happier with my second husband. And neither my ex nor I took alimony from each other, so it went about as amicably as a divorce can go. But I would do things differently - perhaps make the cut more drastic rather than gradual, so that my ex wouldn't feel false hope.

Anecdotally, my mother has done terribly since her divorce a few years ago. She's has suicide attempts, she's been hospitalized several times, she's essentially ruined her life. My father, meanwhile, has blossomed. I don't really think it's a gender issue, though, so much as a personality issue. Dad always was a dynamic person. Mom always was co-dependent and frightened of change. It sounds overly simplistic, but maybe it's simply that some people have a harder time adjusting to a divorce, be they man or woman.

9:31 PM, December 21, 2007  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

cham --

"Husbands view hard times as maybe a blip on the relationship radar and wives take these things more seriously."

Nice anti-male spin, there. How about this? Being male, husbands understand life is all about hard times and ain't no bowl of cherries and that hard times are things to resolve. They take the hard times just as seriously, but view the relationship as more important than the hard times.

"... I have done the breaking up ... trying to communicate ... no change, I've felt ... just about every SO has said he didn't see it coming. The situation was plain as day from my POV."

Could be you were seeking to change him instead of the situation, which would involve change on your part as well. "You need to change" is of course met with resistance. "We need to change" gets more traction.

10:37 PM, December 21, 2007  
Blogger Lefse said...

I can really only comment on my own marriage. Through the 10 years it lasted, practically every argument we had, he would threaten me with divorce and tell me how bad my character was. I didn't fight that way myself. It tore me up. I offered to go to counseling several times, but my husband refused, because according to him the problems in the marriage were all my fault. So I went alone. And though I asked him again and again not to fight that way, he said that he couldn't help what he said when he was angry. So I finally had enough, and told him that. That's when he suggested counseling. Sorry, it was too late for me. Imoved out, and the next year, filed for divorce. He was very surprised and angry about this.

However many men and women are like this in a marriage, and I hope that number is low, the problem is what they're willing to hear, not in what their partner is or is not communicating.

10:46 PM, December 21, 2007  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

lefse --

Sounds familiar and I am truly sad you also had to deal with someone like that. Truth is, that trait is not attached to a chromosome, but shared. Some people feel empowered by tearing down others, even if that other is their partner. Maybe, particularly if it is.

If you choose to seek out another, I certainly hope you keep an eye out. Look for someone who uses plurals when talking; we, us -- not I, you. I tried getting mine just to have a conversation in those terms and it seemed actually impossible for her.

Good luck.

8:48 AM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger Cham said...

Oligonicella:

Could be you were seeking to change him instead of the situation, which would involve change on your part as well. "You need to change" is of course met with resistance. "We need to change" gets more traction.

You don't know me very well, I have never uttered the words, "You need to change." I have uttered the words, "Your new substance abuse is starting to be an issue" and "Your recent gross mismanagement of your life savings is an issue" and "Your 60 pound weight gain is an issue.". ;)

8:52 AM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger Austin said...

I have uttered the words, "Your new substance abuse is starting to be an issue" and "Your recent gross mismanagement of your life savings is an issue" and "Your 60 pound weight gain is an issue.".

The moral of this story is that you never should have been dating Rush.

In all seriousness, though, there was a comment above about the lack of support networks and outlets for men (along with the social norm that it is unacceptable for men to express hurt). Leaving aside the phenomenon of who 'saw it coming', that fact, I would think, is probably one of the keys with regard to how poorly divorce is sometimes coped with as a total phenomenon for men. If bad things happen, but one has a safety net, suicide is much less likely.

9:22 AM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger Slim999 said...

"When one says, "I never saw it coming", what does that really mean?"

I'll tell you what it means, sweetheart. It means you cheated.

Men are programmed by society to believe that they are the ones who initiate all the infidelity, if there is going to be any in a marriage.

Sadly, that's just not the case.

Most men who are "caught unawares" assumed their wives would be faithful, only to find out they never had any intention of living up to their wedding vows.

11:18 AM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger Howard said...

Many years ago my best friend told me that his wife had filed for divorce. I was stunned and asked him how long they'd been having trouble. "Everything was fine until yesterday," he responded.

Which means had been unconscious in the relationship for years. In fact he was the typical workaholic who basically never took a serious break. Many men I know are similarly situated so divorce really nails them hard.

I also share the view that women have almost zero tolerance for "unhappiness" these days and dump us at a tear drop, actually believing that their situation will improve as a result. Sadly, both parties are in financial hell as a result of most divorces in the class of people not in the Hollywood Rich class.

11:19 AM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger Dudley Do-right said...

I'm just a "swinging, happy-go-lucky, no-worries single guy in a bar" of 62 who doesn't swing and stays out of bars....so what do I know. But I think that's the point.

It's gotten too complicated. The abilities needed to keep a modern marriage intact are beyond the grasp of most mortals. Working past the mind games, the hurt feelings, the imagined slights (and the real ones), the sneak attacks, the communication issues, the inlaw issues, job demands, expectations, feminist mindsets, legal/social approbations, outside influences, etc., etc....is just too much if viewed rationally going in.

I listen to a family radio station that, between good music, is constantly coming up with tips to save marriages/families/children. If I sat next to the radio with pad and pencil I could come up with a list longer than your arm in a day or so. Sorry, that's beyond me. If I have to do all that, I'll leave it to those more capable. Thank Heaven I saw through this early.

Over the years, I've worked, schooled, and rubbed shoulders with many guys I admired. Much more thoughtful, considerate and generous than my miserable self. But, when it came to marriage, that didn't save them.

Hells Bells, if Hulk Hogan isn't good enough for today's women, who the heck is?
Dudley

11:30 AM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger Brett said...

"In conflicted relationships, women often stop fighting once they've decided to leave. But they often take time to get things in order before they finally leave."

Where, if my divorce is any guide, "getting things in order" means establishing a bank account the hubby doesn't know about, looting the joint savings to fill it, emptying the joint checking account so that the mortgage payment bounces, buying some things you've really wanted on the husband's credit, and generally making sure that, when you get around to telling him, you're financially set, and he's financial wreck even before the divorce is final.

Sorry, from my point of view, she didn't "stop fighting", she started fighting really dirty. Thank god slitting my wrists hurt so much I stopped before the point of no return, or she'd have gotten my life insurance, too.

11:51 AM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger SarahW said...

Dear men, remember this part:

"Men interpret a woman’s lack of complaining as satisfaction. But more often, it’s because she’s simply given up.”

I don't expect men to think like women. But they can learn how women think.

12:16 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger rjschwarz said...

I'd just like to add to the comments way up there at the top about advice. I got some of the worst advice from well meaning friends whose parents had hostile divorces. Get lawyers, get what's yours, fight for everything. I didn't listen to any of it and the divorce was probably the most peaceful I've ever heard of and that helped a lot (we had no children thankfully).

Sometimes it's time to move on, even if you were broadsided, as I was.

12:16 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger Austin said...

Sarahw,

"Men interpret a woman’s lack of complaining as satisfaction. But more often, it’s because she’s simply given up.”

I don't expect men to think like women. But they can learn how women think.


I don't think you meant to imply men have a choice between interminable complaining and silence before they get broadsided, but that's definitely how it comes across at a first glance.

What are you really driving for here?

Thanks.

12:50 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger Francis W. Porretto said...

Of course men are less likely to sense a fatal breakup approaching. We're the sex that's supposed to suck it up and soldier on. We've been taught to endure what we can't cure; the overwhelming majority of us have made that integral to our conceptions of adulthood. The wishful-thinking centers in our brains lead us to assume that our wives can and will do the same.

In contrast, women face an extraordinary array of legal and social incentives to commit divorce, and are encouraged toward it by a rampant culture of female dissatisfaction and a "sisterhood" that's ever-ready to reinforce the slightest unhappiness with the married state. After all, men are pigs and marriage is patriarchal oppression, don't y'know. This is as well verified as that blondes have more fun.

Frankly, we're lucky the problem is no worse than it is.

1:39 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

cham --

You don't know me very well, I have never uttered the words, "You need to change." I have uttered the words, "Your new substance abuse is starting to be an issue" and "Your recent gross mismanagement of your life savings is an issue" and "Your 60 pound weight gain is an issue.".

True, I only get to read what you write here. Pedantically, those are indeed that sentiment, albeit in a passive voice. The first is quite warranted, in my opinion, depending upon the substance. Two and three become more clouded.

If a woman abused substances, or frittered her savings or became eating obsessed, does she deserve help or the boot? Same answer for the man.

Anyone 'burnt' by relationships has to try very hard to not allow them to taint their verbiage.


SarahW --

It's also incumbent for women to learn how men think. When a man feels the complaining stop for a while, he wants to let the nerves settle before 'discussing' things again. It's not always that he thinks she's satisfied. That only holds true on the first abatement. She's just quiet for a while and he wants to recover.

People who think complaining equals discussion need to sit back and self-evaluate. Discussion is a plural thing, we not I. Complaining is I want.

What I've found most interesting is that those who habitually complain get pretty cranked up when someone simply complains back. They seem to feel that the 'proper' response is admission and correction, not discussion and mutual evaluation.

1:43 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger Rabel said...

I question the timing.
Two days before Christmas? Techie husband notoriusly shopping for electronics on Amazon?

1:47 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger Don Meaker said...

One never knows about what a woman thinks. Women are trained in deception (by their mothers) at a very young age.

With a man, what you see is what you get. If a woman values a man that works for her comfort and safety for 70 hours a week, all she need do is provide a welcoming home. The husband will, in nearly all cases, be more than thrilled with her minimal efforts.

Of course if the woman plays what Bill Cosby called the "Come here, come here, come here-get away get away get away" game, she may meed her internal need for deceptive mastery, but she will succeed in teaching her values of deceptive mastery.

I knew one woman who complained that her husband was working (as a truck driver) for 60 hours a week. Her complaint was that he didn't spend enough time with her and the children. I asked her "So your plan is that he will spend more time with you and the children after you have divorced him?"

Divorce promoted by people with something to gain from it: purveyors of condos and apartments, psychological counselors, pharmacists selling antidepressants, divorce lawyers, child custody lawyers, restaurants who provide more meals out, television which advertises to the now separated spouses, offering them happiness if they buy the next piece of plastic, the next self help course, or the next "hot" car that will make the man attractive to a younger woman.

Older men like younger women: They hope that the years lost in working like a dog for their ex-wive can somehow be regained if they are again next to a nubile 24 year old.

I don't have the answer, being divorced twice myself. One of my ex-wives price for saving the marriage was abandoning my children. The other's price was to wink at her history of continued infidelity. It was cheaper to put her through medical school in lieu of alimony.

1:48 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger Sam said...

My breakup was not a divorce exactly, but the calling off of an engagement. And though I knew things were going badly, I still have to say that it caught me by "surprise." In my mind, the future was the place where we would work out our troubles together. It had to be. I had psychologically and emotionally committed to her when I asked her to marry me; it was a GIVEN that she and I were a team, bound to weather the storms of life together. The relationship was no longer a matter of choice, but a matter of fact grounded in a prior irrevocable decision. If there was a "perception problem," it was not that I didn't notice problems, but that I never considered that her love and commitment to me were in jeopardy. And she never alerted me to that risk until after she'd made the decision to "move on."

Now, in retrospect, I understand my contributions to the troubles we were having. But I think I will never understand how she could look at our problems and look at me, and decide she'd rather be without the problems than be with me. Where that line existed between workable relationship issues and "deal-breaker" catastrophe is a complete mystery.

Somehow, I became the personified problem, and she found somebody else, presumably "better" in her eyes. With that safety net of a backup relationship, she announced she was cheating/had cheated and we "postponed" the wedding. I thought that counseling etc. could get us through it, but she just went through the motions to placate me, knowing that her REAL soulmate was the new guy, just waiting in the wings for the ends to wrap up. The last few months involved many pleasant interactions, giving me hope that her love for me would rekindle, but it was all mere pleasantries as she gradually moved away and finally asked that we not speak anymore.

Perception problem? Yes, I failed to perceive the moment at which her perceptions of our problems reached critical mass. I think for her part, she failed to perceive that she was simply leaving one genuine and indubitably committed, albeit flawed human being, for another flawed human being. There's no inevitability here or question of whether two people are or are not "made for each other." She simply made a lateral move to a new guy.

Perhaps the only acceptable level of problems for a girl with many suitors is vanishingly small. Maybe girls are always weighing number/seriousness of problems vs. risk of leaving. In my experience, though men have a wandering eye and may philander, they Commit their heart to one woman. Women never commit; they merely weigh options. If I'm right, no wonder women have historically not been allowed to have jobs of their own. A woman with options is a fickle, destabilizing force.

1:50 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger Googootz said...

I don't expect men to think like women. But they can learn how women think.

When my marriage broke up 10 years ago, I got quite the education about how women think. It's not pretty, and it has colored my perception of women for the worse.

I am now in a long-term relationship (for the last six years), but I "sleep with one eye open".

2:20 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger Jake said...

Jeez... this site makes me glad I never married.

2:33 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger mr. bitterness. said...

In my experience, though men have a wandering eye and may philander, they Commit their heart to one woman. Women never commit; they merely weigh options. If I'm right, no wonder women have historically not been allowed to have jobs of their own. A woman with options is a fickle, destabilizing force.

Wow Sam. I don't necessarily disagree with you. I just haven't been burned bad enough to get to that level of disillusionment.
I'm sorry, dude. Can I buy you a beer?
For that matter, I'd like to buy a round for everyone who's commented.
"To what we've suffered, and for soldiering on. Sa-loo"

2:52 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger Jonathan said...

Hey Jake: It's not as hard as these guys are making it seem. You just have to keep your focus on quality vs. wealth or physical attractiveness. Excellent people of both sexes are all around us, but they aren't always beautiful, they don't hang around bars, and in my experience they don't go past first base on a first date.

And remember: you're exactly as emotionally healthy as the people you attract and accept.

2:57 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger David said...

Take comfort in the thought that your lawyer's kids will be going to a very fine university.

(Oh, and never marry a one-legged dancer)

3:06 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger Hejde said...

The numbers Dr. Helen refers to do not surprise me. I have been a neurologist for donkeys tears and have seen these problems up close. Many depressed people do not go to the "shrink", they go see somebody like me for headaches, sleep disturbances etc., so you have to listen and analyze> Unfortunately too few neurologists understand the psychiatric aspects and too few 'shrinks' the neurologic aspects of our respective fields of work.

I have only been married once (43 years) and as of this afternoon still am, but you never know. There are in my experience only two significant rules for a successful relationship:

1) Marriage is serious business where you have decided to create a NEW family unit.

2) It is not about you or me, it is about us (including the kids if any)

If you are not willing to follow both, you don't have chance in the long term. There will be illness, hard times and other 'inconveniences' along the road. If you are not willing to pull your weight without calculating who does the most, you are not mature enough to enter into any long term relationship.

It seems to work for my two married kids as well.

3:33 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger Brett said...

"If you are not willing to pull your weight without calculating who does the most, you are not mature enough to enter into any long term relationship."

Yes, I agree, that's the only way to make a marriage work, and I'm on my second, having recovered from my depression. The problem, of course, is if only one of the people in the marriage takes that attitude, it doesn't make the marriage last, it just makes them an easy mark.

The question in all men's minds is, how do you tell in advance whether a woman wants the marriage to work, or merely views you as a quick way of getting out of debt?

3:42 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger dwshelf said...

I'm very appreciative of Dr. Helen's efforts to give men a fair deal.

But one wonders if there isn't something behind this not being said. Generally, wives do not divorce good husbands, suddenly or otherwise.

Indeed, most men are willing to work on it. That affair? Oh yeah. Let's work on it. The other three affairs? Those are old news, but we can work on them too.

Spent money on a boat we didn't have? Just like the money spent on a new truck three years ago we're still paying on?

Coming home drunk on a regular basis? Well yes, let's work on that.

Threats of violence? But I don't really hit anyone, so no crime there.

That's the kind of things which motivate wives to get divorced, usually after they tried to work on them. Time and time again. But working on them proved to be "wife trying to make things better, husband trying to extend misbehavior".

So whether the timing is sudden or not, the husband usually knows that it's his ongoing declining to be a good husband which drove the divorce.

Which, you know, sometimes stimulates suicide.

3:56 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger Brett said...

Yeah, yeah, that's the feminist line on it, anyway: It's got to be the man's fault, women are such noble creatures they never do any wrong. We're supposed to ignore the failure to present any evidence that this remarkable proposition is true, of course.

Rather than my non-existent infidelity, I suspect my divorce had something to do with my wife's psychiatric meds not being 100% effective at enabling her to mimic sanity. She didn't tell me she was bipolar until after I proposed, and I was fool enough to carry through after finding out.

4:05 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger Gerard said...

When I was going through my long and bitter divorce, around the time when the fees had gone through $100,000, I asked my lawyer -- a specialist with lots of experience and a Roman Catholic -- what he'd do if his wife every wanted to drag him through divorce.

He said, jokingly I am sure, "I'd kill her."

What? I replied.

Sure, he said, look if you kill them the state has to prove you did, which can be difficult if you want to make it difficult.

If you win, you get to keep everything. If you lose, you'll spend years in a very small place, eating bad food, with very little money, reduced sexual opportunities, seeing your children very infrequently if at all, and watching cable TV. Which is pretty much what's going to happen to you after divorce anyway, so what, really, do you have to lose?

4:06 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger Cham said...

dwshelf:

Well said.

Of course, your post could be easily written with the genders switched as well. Sort of a 'I do whatever I want and my spouse/SO needs to put up with it.'

4:14 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger dwshelf said...

Rather than my non-existent infidelity, I suspect my divorce had something to do with my wife's psychiatric meds not being 100% effective at enabling her to mimic sanity. She didn't tell me she was bipolar until after I proposed, and I was fool enough to carry through after finding out.


This looks like something other than a potentially good marriage which somehow failed. It's those potentially good marriages which I think are worthy of analysis.

4:14 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger dwshelf said...

Of course, your post could be easily written with the genders switched as well. Sort of a 'I do whatever I want and my spouse/SO needs to put up with it.'

And I'm sure it does happen that way some times.

However, the data presented here, for example suicide 9 times more likely for men, suggests that the frequency is far from balanced.

Consider the intuitive association between suicide and "knowing I've screwed things up".

4:21 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger Cham said...

I don't know whether there is an intuitive association between suicide and "knowing I've screwed things up". I would strongly suspect there is an intuitive association between suicide and "I'm miserable, depressed, lonely, feel really bad and I refuse to talk to a professional about it".

4:26 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger dwshelf said...

I would strongly suspect there is an intuitive association between suicide and "I'm miserable, depressed, lonely, feel really bad and I refuse to talk to a professional about it".

Agreed!

But ... there's the prior link from "I screwed things up" leading to "I'm miserable, depressed, lonely, feeling really bad. Damned if that bottle of vodka didn't even make me feel even worse. Death is like being very drunk forever. Talking to a professional will result in being told stuff I already know, namely that if I expect people to care for me, I need to make some big changes in how I treat them. Suicide is looking pretty tempting, this might be a good time."

4:39 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger M said...

Surely there is some place between "Men are perfect and noble and do nothing wrong and women are all evil manipulative she devils" and "Women are pefect and noble and do nothing wrong and men are all abusive, self involved jerks"

Maybe sometimes it is the man's fault. Maybe sometimes it is the woman's fault. Maybe most times in a divorce everyone helped out. And maybe BOTH genders need to try to learn to understand each other better.

Yeah, you're right. Couldn't be that.

4:42 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger Austin said...

A quick point on human thinking:

We are heavily inclined to rely on the evidence which is immediately available to us, and biased towards stories. Therefore, anecdotes and individual experience are most likely to carry the day without serious thought.

However, the fact that suicide is 9 times more likely for men is the real story; that's the key here, as the weight of numbers is against men by a significant factor. That suggests to me:

- Men are more often blindsided and less conditioned to cope well with it
OR
- Support mechanisms for men are ineffective

One or both are almost certainly true, given the numeric disparity. So for all the people arguing qualitative measures about fault, don't ignore the final reality.

4:48 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger john_render said...

"I would strongly suspect there is an intuitive association between suicide and "I'm miserable, depressed, lonely, feel really bad and I refuse to talk to a professional about it"."

You might want to consider what an overwhelming sense of indefensible injustice and betrayal does to one's consideration of suicide before you immediately buy into the "aww, poor little man screwed up his life ... loser" meme as a more likely cause of post-divorce suicide.

5:02 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger D said...

Just a random thought from a guy that hasn't married yet (still in grad school.)

Of all the non-married couples that I've known that have broken up, I can't think of a single one where the guy broke up with the girl.

It was ALWAYS the girl breaking it off with the guy.

My sample is too small for statistical significance, and is not randomly selected. But does my experience match anyone else's?

5:03 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger Bill said...

Truth is, you never really know someone until you break up with them :)

5:06 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger Reuben said...

In my experience, women are not merely less committed, but often only committed to themselves from the beginning. It is often only the male that is committed to another.
My brother committed suicide this year. His wife didn't divorce him, turned out the whole wedding ceremony was a fraud from her and some friends, and he was never really married as he thought. She also delighted in hurting him emotionally, and separated him from his friends and family--if he spent time with anyone else, even brothers, he was viciously attacked as being unfaithful.
Things were rocky but fairly stable in patterns of behavior until the business he worked at closed. He gave her his last check, and before the weekend was over, she told him she had someone else and didn't need him anymore.
This was the second husband she used for her own ends that ended up dying. My brother from clear suicide, the other from 'accidentally' grabbing the wrong wires at work after she left him. She inherited a large annuity from that death.

5:12 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger Ed said...

"Thank god slitting my wrists hurt so much I stopped before the point of no return, or she'd have gotten my life insurance, too."

No, she wouldn't. Life insurance does not pay a cent when the insured commits suicide; it is considered insurance fraud.

5:20 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger inmypajamas said...

D, I can skew your sample for you. I have been in four relationships (married once), have been cheated on in each one and all of the relationships prior to my marriage were ended by the guy (for another woman). (Hmm, that sounds really pathetic when you read it back.) My marriage only survived the infidelity because I found out I was pregnant during the last episode and demanded counseling or divorce. He agreed to counseling and has managed to steer clear of trouble for 15 years now.

Anyway, I am a three-time female dumpee so I hereby declare your premise false.

5:27 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger Sam said...

Ed-
Suicide clauses generally only bar benefits if the insured kills himself within the first two years of the policy.

5:32 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

Reuben,

I am very sorry to hear about your brother. The problem is, many people in the depths of depression think that there will be no final end to the pain, when in reality, down the line, a person's life will return to a stable and decent state; most men marry again or find a relationship that makes them happy.

dwshelf,

Your belief that those men who commit suicide were insensitive bastards shows how little compassion you have for your fellow man and how little you know about human nature. What you describe--narcissistic traits or those people who have little empathy for others-- have little to do with committing suicide in these cases. Usually, people who kill themselves after divorce suffer from Major Depression or Mood disorders, a whole different animal than narcissism.

5:59 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger SwampWoman said...

I can't really say that I'm surprised by the high suicide statistics. While I have a number of girlfriends that could offer me emotional support in the event that I needed it, my spouse does not talk about anything to do with emotions at all with anybody except for me. I am his best friend and sole confidante, and have been for over 30 years. I worry about what would happen to him if I were to be involved in an accident.

6:51 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger rjschwarz said...

Men require a different kind of emotional support in my opinion. I bought an xbox and my friends came over. Just hanging out with friends helped enormously. No crying or even talking about the ex, just having fun. I imagine sports fills a similar role in many guys support system. It's all impromptu. I simply can't imagine going to a support group even if I needed one.

7:06 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger dwshelf said...

So Helen,

Is it your belief that in the majority of cases, a woman who initiates a divorce is reacting to something other than the kinds of persistent behavior I described?

I mean, leave out the mentally ill and the fraudulent women. I know they exist, but they're way in the minority, and the man is better off without them anyway.

And, for that matter, leave out the chemically dependent, who tend to tolerate all manner of crap so long as their continued source of chemicals seems assured. The man would be better off without them too, but they don't initiate divorce. Usually in such divorces, the man is the one who is pushing her out, and he ain't committing suicide afterwards.

What is the majority reason for a woman to seek divorce?

=====
I have plenty of compassion for men in general. There are many good men in my family, but the two who left due to divorce were not among them. We worked with them, not only their wives tried, but the whole family. Eventually, meaning after many years of continued misbehavior, they were basically let go.

What I don't have much compassion for are men who expect women to love them despite persistent misbehavior.

7:08 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

dwshelf,

Yes, it is my belief that in many cases, women are reacting to other things than the stereotype you bring up of the cheating, drunk good for nothing husband. Read the article I linked, it discusses some of the reasons--the love simply runs out, that is the woman no longer feels it, women are bored with their husbands and lives and the article also points out that women want to divorce by 40 so they can find another man. The article even states: "It’s the same phenomenon as rich guys trading in their long-time partners for trophy wives. Only it’s the women who are shedding men."

Did the two men in your family who you describe as having continued misbehavior commit suicide? I highly doubt it because those who do are typically, although not always a different kind of man. I don't doubt that there are men out there who are running around, acting non-caring and generally lousy husbands; however, they are not the ones this article seems to be talking about nor are they the ones taking their lives due to depression. They will generally go on to find someone else to make miserable. Good guys can get the shaft, you may want to blame their crummy behavior so that there is a reason but it is not always the case.

7:42 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger rkb said...

I'm old enough to have seen both halves of the gender wars cycle. Yes, right now men are at a serious disadvantage in some ways.

When I was a teen, the power shoe was definitely on the other foot however. Legally, financially, with regard to domestic violence and with regard to career options other than staying in an empty, and sometimes abusive, marriage. I was a menstruating teen when a woman needed her husband's written permission to be prescribed contraceptives.

That is not a sustainable basis for marriage any more guys. (Nor is exploitative behavior on the part of woment.)

Sam wrote: In my experience, though men have a wandering eye and may philander, they Commit their heart to one woman. Women never commit; they merely weigh options. If I'm right, no wonder women have historically not been allowed to have jobs of their own. A woman with options is a fickle, destabilizing force.

You would have fit right into the late 50s, Sam. And I do understand how comforting those thoughts must be. It would indeed be destabilizing if a guy who's going about his normal business, philandering as he wills but == honestly! == committed to One woman finds that he is not the only one with options.

Which is the issue here. Women do have options - but to my mind, neither women nor men are making good use of them. We have got to find a respectful adult balance of responsible behavior on the part of BOTH sexes.

9:30 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger Tynan said...

I'm a young man. Spent a bunch of time and effort 'learning' women over the last year or so.

The relevant lessons I've learned are:

1. Women generally act as their emotions dictate, and use logic to rationalize their actions later.
2. Women's emotions drive them towards men who cannot be manipulated and who display disinterest towards them.

I've found that in a girlfriend relationship, you can get better behaviour from a girl when you don't make her the center of your life or fully commit. Always seem like you have other things going on, other girls interested, and leaving would be no big deal. Foot out the door, so to speak.

If she knows she has you, she feels validated and thus stops chasing and stops doing good things to get you to validate her. Sex becomes infrequent and boring, she stops cooking for you, other guys come into the picture.

Problem is, I'm not sure how you would do this in a marriage. Marriage is a total commitment by definition, so its not surprising that it turns off womens' emotions.

And yeah, I know it's a pretty depressing view of women, but I've learned to accept them for what they are and just do the action with the highest chance of getting the result I want. You can't get angry at them for their nature, any more than you get angry at a poorly-maintained car for breaking down.

10:53 PM, December 22, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

Rkb,

Good points. The question is, how do men and women deal with the changes that have happened in society--equality for women, more expected in terms of family time for men, the loss of the importance of the husband's role etc. in ways that keep families together in fulfilling ways to both parties?

6:04 AM, December 23, 2007  
Blogger rkb said...

That's the big question indeed, Helen.

I don't have any easy answers, but I do have some convictions and experience. And these tell me that we have got to move to a place where both sexes are respected -- and where individuals of both sexes are held responsible for their behavior.

The victim role for women has grown quite stale when applied to those who have not faced serious legal, economic or social discrimination -- as I did over 30 years as a professional and as some do today.

Where men once (and in many places still do) wield financial and physical power I now see women wielding emotional and legal power for equally destructive personal advantage. I don't like it. I call it when I see it.

But guys: you are going to have to grow up too if we are to solve the current mess. There is a cult of perpetual frat boyhood about that is distinctly not attractive to any woman who's had the chance to build a serious relationship with a mature male. That perpetual adolescence manifests in shallow sex, undisciplined coarse behavior in public and a fixation on self.

I know there are a lot of hurting divorced men out there. And I've seen some really nasty women doing the divorcing.

But I'll believe you guys want mature committed women when I see you having sufficiently high standards to avoid dating and sleeping with shallow women.

10:23 AM, December 23, 2007  
Blogger Bruce Hayden said...

Another one blindsided here. And, yes, after three years of knowing things were not working, but unable to fix them, it seemed like things were just started to work, when she served the papers on me (ok, if there are any other attorneys here, I actually waived service). Then three months of counseling where she didn't try, but I wasn't able to change fast enough, and then she walked out of the counseling one day, and that was that.

Over a decade later, I still don't know what I did wrong. Have read almost any book that I could find that would help me understand women to no avail. About the best answer I have was postpartum depression combined with the seven year itch, since it started about that long after the marriage.

I do think though that men seem to take the marriage commitment more seriously than do women (on average), so it is no real surprise that younger men are ever more hesitant in entering into marriage. But, of course, any more the deck is stacked against men and in favor of women in the case of divorce, so it is no surprise that men are more paranoid about divorce, since they are inevitably the ones screwed by it.

11:22 AM, December 23, 2007  
Blogger nik said...

Tynan wrote: "I'm a young man. Spent a bunch of time and effort 'learning' women over the last year or so.

The relevant lessons I've learned are:

1. Women generally act as their emotions dictate, and use logic to rationalize their actions later.
2. Women's emotions drive them towards men who cannot be manipulated and who display disinterest towards them."

For those out there that don't know of a HUGE, verging on billion dollar man empowerment industry, popularized in Neil Strauss' NYT best-seller "The Game," I strongly suspect that Tynan is a member of what we call "The Community" (of pickup artists) since this is standard 101 theory, and it is empirically derived based on thousands upon thousands of "field reports" of super-charged bachelors using cutting edge psychology theory to try to meet and bed women in bars, bookstores, etc. Tynan's theory is not his own, I mean. I'm in a relationship of 17 years, and only when I declared it "open" and at least the threat (and on rare occasion a spring or autumns worth of polygamy) of my finding a spunkier model for a lover, did she...who is in the upper 1% of income bracket...start treating me *somewhat* more like a real lover than as a house pet or manservant. She's got marbles in her head though, so, instead of building my product design business just when it was about to skyrocket, I slammed on the brakes to deal with her issues. Now she's at a much better job (lower pay, mega stock bonuses at the best company in the world right now), and treats me even humanly now. But the zombie wont go to therapy. She has textbook depression. No expression of emotion. A true "Vogue" girl, who squanders thousands of dollars a month on high end dresses she never wears, and cosmetics that cost their weight in pearls. So...I demand therapy. The first (male, old school) therapist fell in love with her, labeled me as the "jerk" and basically made things worse, so I did my week of research and found out about the latest generation of therapy that actually works, and she started going and actually liked it, and life (mine) started to improve drastically. But now she's at work too much to go any more and "things" are deteriorating right back to the point where getting her to even tell me about events in her life is like pulling teeth. So why am I not married? Deep fear of losing my honest options, the only leverage I have, and the only way I have objectively found to stop her from taking me utterly for granted.

11:36 AM, December 23, 2007  
Blogger dwshelf said...

Dr. Helen wrote:
The article even states: "It’s the same phenomenon as rich guys trading in their long-time partners for trophy wives. Only it’s the women who are shedding men."

But how often does that happen?

What I didn't see in the referenced article is any analysis of how many forcibly divorced husbands were good vs ordinary vs bad, let alone whether there was (or was not) a correlation between those who committed suicide and those who were bad. In fact, from the anecdotes, about the only clues we were offered as to the husband's behavior was that they weren't communicating very well with their wives.

There is a paradox in here somewhere, namely that both financial success and financial failure make a good husband more divorceable. In the 20s, it's all love not money. By 40, a wife with no house and no bank account is bound to be concerned, and might well be motivated to find a more successful man. So a man needs to be at least home-owner successful to have a secure marriage.

The paradox is that as assets rise, they become sufficient for the wife to retire comfortably on her half. The result is that she's likely to be less tolerant of misbehavior, and more demanding in general. The stress is frequently increased by the tendency of the man to see the assets as his own, and see himself as having far more control over the assets as does the wife. Now we've set the stage for a good husband to be on the incoming end of a basically unfair divorce.

How often does this happen? Probably more often than trophy motivated divorces of women, but we don't have any real data.

2:25 PM, December 23, 2007  
Blogger M. said...

It amazes me that the word CHIVALRY has not been uttered in this delightful thread. (Unless I overlooked it...)

Men are fools for the old chivalrous "sugar 'n spice" myth about the "fairer sex."

It's frightening really, given that all the evidence and forty years of feminism demonstrate that women are very sophisticated predators, and quite delight in harvesting men.

All of these surprisingly divorced guys have one trait in common --

they were socialized in a seamless Matriarchy to become accomplished, uncomplicated, chivalrous cuckholds.

4:25 PM, December 23, 2007  
Blogger Xlp Thlplylp said...

To remind myself why I never married or had children, I come here to experience the outer limits of terror by reading stories of endless unresolved recriminations between the sexes; of the modern day Bleak House known as the Family Court; and of the sudden unexpected termination of domestic bliss and its financial, professional, physical and emotional consequences.

The greatest satisfaction in life comes from accomplishment. For some of us, the risk of financial ruin and the prospect of having your children taken away is too high to be worth the accomplishments of marriage and fatherhood.

5:02 PM, December 23, 2007  
Blogger rkb said...

Which is a shame, IMO, as there are deep joys to be had in a long-term relationship and with the rearing of children.

Speaking as one who has been married for 34 years now - having made and kept the commitment despite some serious difficulties along the way.

6:29 PM, December 23, 2007  
Blogger Matt Campbell said...

Not to sound too much like a cold-blooded economist here, but looking at the facts and figures around marriage/divorce, I really don't see why anyone still does it-- particularly men, yes, but women can also get royally screwed in divorce, too. It just doesn't seem to be a very rational choice to make, given the other options. It's really that simple.

6:43 PM, December 23, 2007  
Blogger dadvocate said...

dwshelf - I can easily think of several divorces of people I know where the woman left because her husband didn't have enough status, make enough money, wasn't cool enough, and many other reasons far from abuse or infidelity.

I can think of one or two that some might classify as a man leaving for a trophy wife although the new wife wasn't a trophy in my eyes. In these cases I think the women made the man feel special and desired which the wife had quit doing years before.

Of course, the desire bit can work both ways. Maybe the women feel undesired also. With longer life spans, longer marriages are more common. Women used to die in child birth much more commonly. My great-great(-great?) grandfather had 4 wives. He outlived the first three. My great grandfather died in his 40's of infectious disease. Living longer brings unique problems for us. One may be living with the same person for many decades.

6:44 PM, December 23, 2007  
Blogger Xlp Thlplylp said...

rkb, the shame is the stigma of infantilism that some sociologists attach to unmarried men. From the article:

“Marriage changes men more pervasively and more profoundly than it changes women,” explains sociologist Steven Nock, author of Marriage in Men’s Lives. “The best way to put it is, marriage is for men what motherhood is for women.” Marriage makes men grow up.


If this analogy, characterized by Nock as, "the best way to put it," is supported by the cold empirical evidence under the most skeptic-proof statistical methodology, the parallel conclusion for women that "motherhood makes women grow up" is unlikely to be embraced by feminists. Nock needs to find a way to disparage unmarried men in a seemingly evenhanded way that does not lead to anti-feminist conclusions for women, if he wishes to be taken seriously by feminists, including feminist sociologists.

The article continues:
Nock observes that many men before marriage are indifferent workers, and, after hours, are likely to be found in bars or zoned out in front of a TV. After marriage, they are solid wage earners, frequent churchgoers, maybe members of a neighborhood protection association." One would like to know more about this cohort of men; e.g., their socio-economic status, age, sexual orientation, and so on.

8:07 PM, December 23, 2007  
Blogger Chuck Pelto said...

TO: Dr. Helen, et al.
RE: Interesting Report

"The article also states that recently divorced men are nearly nine times more likely to commit suicide than their female counterparts. I wonder if Sudden Divorce Syndrome is why we are seeing a spike in middle-aged suicides." -- Dr. Helen

And I wonder what would be found of the data regarding men who go to bars after a recent divorce vs. those who do not, vis-a-vis recent divorce suicides.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

10:11 PM, December 23, 2007  
Blogger Lamont said...

Nix,
After reading about your relationship, I have one bit of advice: Run Nix, RUN. That's a crazy woman, and it's never going to get better.

Lamont

1:37 AM, December 24, 2007  
Blogger Cham said...

Yes, nix, why are you still hanging around this screwjob? Insanity = Repetition expecting different results.

8:24 AM, December 24, 2007  
Blogger M. said...

I applaud the economist above who pointed out that marriage is no longer a sensible option.

You would never invest in a stock who's company declared - "We are 52% certain that we will fail in the market within six years!"

Yet that is precisely what you do when you choose to marry.

Also, marriage is no longer a contract, because all of the agreed upon obligations mean nothing under no-fault divorce.

Imagine a bank saying - "Oh, we agreed that if you paid your mortgage on time you could actually own your house? Oh, sorry. No-fault repossession means you have to pack up and go."

Marriage is above all else a form of modern predatory power, usually employed by the predatory gender.

You know, the same gender that initiates 70% of divorces?

11:10 AM, December 24, 2007  
Blogger br549 said...

The posts of hejde @ 3:33 P.M. on 12/22 and of matt campbell @ 6:43 P.M. on 12/23 hit home for me.

What hejde said about marriage is roughly what it is all about for me, anyway. Two come together as one and start a whole new family, new life. And hopefully, you both leave as much of the baggage as possible at the threshold of your new and shared lives. It's a wonderful and powerful thing when the two are able to pull in the same direction.

And then, if you never married at all, and put a reasonable amount of time into educating yourself about savings and investments, well....

12:01 PM, December 24, 2007  
Blogger Phillip said...

Wow, sounds like people on this blog have had all sorts of problems. Now me, I'm lucky. I've been married over 18 years - to my best friend.

Of course, when I was much younger I first asked the question "What type of woman would I want to be married to?" Then I asked the even more pertinent question "What type of guy does such a woman want?"

One hint, you don't find the quality of my spouse in a bar...

3:52 PM, December 24, 2007  
Blogger fat fred said...

how about this? Dont marry anyone untill you'v lived with that person for at least 3 years.By cohabitating with that person for a long time not only do you get to know that person a lot better, you also more importantly get to know thy self!No one can hide their true natures from the other person for that long.But after 3 years if you still love each other..then go fot it.
I wonder what the statistice are regarding divorce rates in couples who had previously cohabitated, and in those who had not.

6:37 PM, December 24, 2007  
Blogger Cham said...

Fat fred:

A few clicks in google gives you this result courtesy of the CDC.

"Couples who did not live together before marrying had a 31 percent chance of splitting up after 10 years, compared with a 40 percent chance for couples who cohabited before marriage."

8:22 PM, December 24, 2007  
Blogger Darksbane said...

I know my views are colored by experience.

My father's first marriage to my mom, divorced after 7 years. She cheated, left him, abandoned me at 5 years old, and thought she just found a better life. 25 years later she still regrets it.

My fathers second marriage. They got divorced because she couldn't handle the ready made family that came with me.

My fathers third marriage. Cheated again, left him and their 2 kids who my dad got full custody of because she is the devil.

My first long term girlfriend. Cheated and left to do drugs and have orgies.

My first wife. Cheated and left me for a 'real' man, who ended up beating her and threatening to kill her, all the things I just wouldn't do.

I don't drink, don't do drugs, don't have sex outside of wedlock, ect. but I sure as crap get labeled quick by anyone who hears that I'm divorced... always the mans fault. I'm not suprised that some men committ suicide because of all they have to put up with in a divorce. It is always our fault, I've actually had women with the nerve to tell me that I must be 'leaving something out' of this story that my father or I did to drive those poor pitiful women we were married to to do those horrible things.

The double standard is one of the things that has jaded me on any further relationships. From a purely logical point of view there is no reason beyond reproduction to choose marriage over being single.

2:47 PM, December 26, 2007  
Blogger serket said...

I had a partly similar situation with a girl I knew only through the internet. We were really close for a while and suddenly it changed. Her parents divorced about a month earlier so a change in her perspective was definitely reasonable. We had a falling away and it seemed to me that I was more upset about it than her.

6:15 PM, December 27, 2007  
Blogger mr. bitterness. said...

wow, mr bitterness. it turns out your wife is a fool. maybe you leave her!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

4:39 AM, December 28, 2007  
Blogger mr. bitterness. said...

boo hoo, losers. get over your pathetic self induced pity. middle class men lost all alpha-male qualities. our grandfathers never went around acting like complete babies. i believe you all woulda been shot had you went through their times. maybe if you had been aman your wife wouldnt have left. we women are finding hard working, ie. consruction so much sexier than computer dorks. survival of the species!

5:24 AM, December 28, 2007  
Blogger Matthew said...

To "Mr. Bitterness":

You're just the type of woman who generates the statistic of divorced men ending their lives in pain. You want to know what's "sexy"? A woman who respects hard work, who respects a man's commitment, a woman who doesn't sleep around or send pictures of her body to other men over the internet. A woman who doesn't bring home her boyfriends, sleep in the marital bed, doesn't stay home all day flirting with other men while the husband goes out and works 50+ hours a week to pay all the bills, only to come home and hear complaints that he never does his "share" of the chores around the house.

Excuse me if that comes across as a little offensive, but I find your comment rather offensive myself. My wife left me, and it broadsided me that morning of January 13th, 2005. I remember waking up alone on the couch to find that half of everything we owned, her brand new car, our son, her boyfriend, and she had driven off in the middle of the night. I had to call in favors from mutual friends just to find out where she and my son were. You'll have to excuse me if I don't share your views about how a man should be.

Divorce, alimony, and child support are HEAVILY prejudiced toward a woman's rights. All my wife had to do was claim I had threatened her, and my visitations were lessened. Any restrictions she "felt she needed" were granted and enforced by the courts. I lost not only a family I had sacrificed everything I had previously built in my life to support, but I lost any chance at living over the past three years.

So you'll have to forgive some men for being just a bit jaded about women. Most men get "raked over the coals" as was said earlier. It's not just financially, or legally. To wake up one morning, and not be able to give your son a hug or your wife a kiss? That was devastating. To be told I had abused her, when I had never even raised my voice to her, that was insulting. To be told I couldn't see my son without her permission? I nearly added to the suicide statistic.

You can keep your views of the perfect man, I would rather be honest and alone, than lead a false life and be in a false relationship. That's where I stand after four years, finally in a position to go back to college and get the degree I should have never set aside in the first place.

5:49 PM, December 29, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

Matthew,

Many people, including "Mr. Bitterness" above, are threatened by men taking a stand against the growing family court bias that exists today--which did not exist to the extent in our grandparents' time that it does now. It's no wonder they could act like men, they were treated with more respect. Today, men are looked upon as second class citizens in the courts where a woman's word alone can take their family, their money and their freedom. The current backlash that is starting to brew threatens these women (and the men who cowtow to feminists or are too steeped in chauvinistic chivalry to know when their rights are being trampled) and they tend to lash out as you see above.

Take care of yourself and don't listen to these naysayers.

6:52 AM, December 30, 2007  
Blogger rkb said...

... growing family court bias that exists today--which did not exist to the extent in our grandparents' time that it does now. It's no wonder they could act like men, they were treated with more respect. Today, men are looked upon as second class citizens in the courts where a woman's word alone can take their family, their money and their freedom.

True. But - BUT - in your grandparents' time that is EXACTLY the position women were in.

And they were in that position not for one or two generations, but for many centuries.

The answer does NOT lie in yoyo-ing between bitter domination by one sex or the other.

2:09 PM, December 30, 2007  
Blogger Caved1ver said...

dwshelf:

Really? This concludes another test of the female double-standard alert system. The double standard seems to be functioning normally: (a) If a woman ends a marriage she is merely exiting an oppressive environment (b) If man ends a marriage he is a failure because he didn’t make a sufficiently Herculean effort to save the marriage. God know women are never physically/mentally abusive to husbands and/or children. Reality: despite the sexist VAWA women in a relationship are just as violent as men and are more likely than men to abuse their own children. Women hit first but men hit hard. Given their child custody monopoly, women commit 70% of child abuse.

Ironically, women invented “No-Fault” divorce: the whole “No-Fault” Divorce legal movement was started by female trial lawyers (National Association of Women Lawyers) around 1960- they exemplify the predatory entitlement mentality of your average “responsibility-optional” woman child. Result: women file for nearly 80% of all divorces because they have all the financial incentives to do so.

4:05 PM, December 31, 2007  
Blogger Caved1ver said...

True. But - BUT - in your grandparents' time that is EXACTLY the position women were in.

Really? According to whom? Did they die in a coal mine or were they sold into indenturement as mercenary soldiers.

Reality: Thanks to the lobbying efforts of feminists focused on chivalrous “secular progressive” male politicians & judges, today’s women-children live increasingly “responsibility optional, consequence free” lives. Women have the majority of civil, education, reproductive, marital, divorce, child-custody, and child-support rights in America. Result? Women are abusing “No-Fault Divorce”: women apply for 70% of all divorces while utilizing children as financial assets in order to leverage the largest amount of de facto Alimony: i.e., child support. Why find a new boyfriend if you don’t have an ex-husband to subsidize your new love life. Given their child custody monopoly, mothers commit 60% of all child abuse. Moreover, in recent poll 30% of women were willing to commit maternity fraud (lying about her fertility or use of birth control) depending on the prospective father’s income. Fifty percent (50%) of all married women commit adultery which results in at least 4-10% of women committing the most despicable act of domestic abuse: paternity fraud (lying about her child’s real father) w/ impunity by legally forcing their husbands to pay for some else’s children. Why not have an affair if you have an ambulatory wallet to pay for consequences of said affair. Women routinely employ abortion as de facto birth control that results in 25 % (1.4M) of all children conceived yearly being aborted for pure convenience. Also, since Women unilaterally decide to have children out of wedlock at least 37% of the time, those same chivalrous male politicians enacted social welfare programs ($1.4T per year) that benefit promiscuous irresponsible women at the expense of the majority male taxpayer base. Why is it always some woman implying that some semblance gender equality exists when it’s clear that we are living in an increasingly gynocentric, socialist dystopia?

4:11 PM, December 31, 2007  
Blogger rkb said...

Sigh.

Yes, it sucks for many men in divorce courts and in the dating and marriage scene today.

Do a little research before you project an advantage for women back more than a few decades, however.

Up through the early 1960s married women required their husband's signature before they could be fitted with a diaphram (contraception before oral hormones were available). Single women could not legally be fitted with them at all.

When I started working at the Pentagon in 1974, pregnant women in the civil service were forced to resign their jobs -- resign, not take medical or annual leave -- when they reached the 4th month of pregnancy.

I started my career in the civil service rather than in industry because I had a better chance of being paid the same salary for the same professional work. However, I was denied several higher paying jobs on the basis that "women won't want to work nights or weekends to fix things".

And re: no-fault divorce, would you prefer the absurd and capricious state of affairs that reigned prior to its institution? The Wikipedia article on divorce is pretty accurate in recounting them.

4:40 PM, December 31, 2007  
Blogger Xlp Thlplylp said...

It isn't necessary to make historical generalizations about the trajectory of female responsibility, as if that could be quantified so easily, or remarks about socialism to decide that the risk of marriage and fatherhood outweigh the benefits.

Sweeping historical and political remarks vitiate the argument.

And now I'm going to risk vitiating my own argument by pointing out that remarks about socialism in relation to feminism demonstrate a misunderstanding about politics in a democracy (or at least a system in which the winning coalition is large, if one maintains that the United Stats is not a democracy--which it is not). In a democracy, there is a large winning coalition (that group of people with sufficient power to maintain incumbents in office); in dictatorships, autocracies and military juntas, the size of the winning coalition is small. But when the winning coalition is large, it has to be maintained mostly with public goods: private goods are too expensive. Paying off a winning coalition works in dictatorships or autocracies, where the winning coalition is small (relative to the so-called selectorate).

So remarks about feminism being somehow linked with socialism, which is supposed to be evil, misses the point that leaders in states with large winning coalitions cannot stay in office by relying on private goods. If it could be done, it would have been done a long time ago.

The issue isn't with socialism, since providing a mix of public and private goods is what leaders have to do to stay in office; public goods are an economic necessity. The question is over their distribution.


(This fact, incidentally, is why the political case for libertarians like Ron Paul is hopeless, since Paul would rapidly deplete the supply of public goods to a level below that needed to support his winning coalition, were he to succeed, but this is a digression. Anyone who is interested in the theory of the selectorate can look this up in "The logic of political survival," by de Mesquita, et al.)

5:09 PM, December 31, 2007  
Blogger gobigdaddy said...

As a divorced man, it left me devastated financially and emotionally although it was a long time coming as well as mutually agreed upon.
Men are "trained" socially to be strong and not to readily share feelings.
There is a profound lack of support systems for men. The therapy groups i attended were actually chemical dependency group meetings because i found them at all hours of the day, and was able to vent and recieve support from other men.
I feel the American education system should include classes on parenting and marriage as well as autoshop or the grossly inept PE classes that are offered.

2:21 AM, January 15, 2008  
Blogger gobigdaddy said...

As a divorced man, it left me devastated financially and emotionally although it was a long time coming as well as mutually agreed upon.
Men are "trained" socially to be strong and not to readily share feelings.
There is a profound lack of support systems for men. The therapy groups i attended were actually chemical dependency group meetings because i found them at all hours of the day, and was able to vent and recieve support from other men.
I feel the American education system should include classes on parenting and marriage as well as autoshop or the grossly inept PE classes that are offered.

2:21 AM, January 15, 2008  
Blogger gobigdaddy said...

As a divorced man, it left me devastated financially and emotionally although it was a long time coming as well as mutually agreed upon.
Men are "trained" socially to be strong and not to readily share feelings.
There is a profound lack of support systems for men. The therapy groups i attended were actually chemical dependency group meetings because i found them at all hours of the day, and was able to vent and recieve support from other men.
I feel the American education system should include classes on parenting and marriage as well as autoshop or the grossly inept PE classes that are offered.

2:21 AM, January 15, 2008  
Blogger David said...

Put me in the "never saw it comming camp as well"

Was out marriage perfect - of course not. Was it "divorce ready" - I didn't think so.

She wanted to be a stay at home mom. No problem I said, but we have to sell this house and cut back on the lifestyle we have. According to her I would "resent her" if we did that. I would have loved it, and told her so many many times. Having her home to do things such as laundry, cooking, grocery shopping, cleaning, picking the kids up, etc would have been great. Instead, because I felt guilty because, in her language "I was making her work" I did all of that, along with the "husbandly" things such as yard work, oil changes, home repair, etc.

Did I go out with the boys at night - no. Was I unfaithful - not even the thought of it. Was I abusive (verbal or otherwise) - nope.

I came home one day and - BAM! She wants a divorce. She flat out told the counciler that I took us to that counciling was a waste of time, her mind was made up. No amount of begging, pleading, talking, from me or the kids would change her mind.

I got lucky. My lawer is a woman who had breast cancer. After her mastectomy her husband up and left her. She is not bitter towards men, she is bitter towards people that leave a good marrage. Not only was she my lawyer, but she was also a friend I could talk to.

As it turns out, I see my kids less, but the time I have with them is so much better. I have free time to do things with them, as opposed to all the housework. I also have money to do things, for two reasons.

1) Without my ex running up $1,000 + bills every month on the credit cards, my finanaces are in much better shape.

2) My ex got remarried less than a year after our divorce, thus ending any alimony. I still got hit for half of everything we had, but right now all I have is child support payments.

Do I hate her - no. Do I dislike her - no. Do I have any sort of feelings left for her at all - none whatsoever. Am I making the best of my life, moving on, and continuing to be a happy person - you bet.

1:56 PM, January 18, 2008  
Blogger AudreyMae said...

Well had to write this twice, first time blogging.
I have been divorced for 10 years, married ten. I initiated, ex got into alcohol and gambling.. tried counseling stuck it out for 12 years.. anyway. I believe each relationship is dynamic, ever changing as is each participant.
I am not bitter towards my ex, he will have to fight his own demons in regards to being a total deadbeat Dad, basically being nonexsistent in his childrens lives

10:24 PM, January 28, 2008  
Blogger AudreyMae said...

I still love men and would love to find one.. and I think I finally have... except one problem.. he will be divorced in about a month after being seperated for alomost a year. He says he doesn't know what happened,, and I told him I don't believe that. How can you not know on some level???/ now he seems so wounded, he is terribly afraid to get hurt..
I would love to be there for him. He is intelligent, hardworking, sincere and lots of traits I have been seeking. How do I go about letting him know, without pushing too hard? by the way, I live in a very rural area, and met him in a bar. Is there a time limit for men to regroup, do they need support, I think he is depressed. too. any advice would be appreciated

10:30 PM, January 28, 2008  
Blogger David said...

To AudreyMae

Can you not know why? Maybe. I know the superficial reasons why my wife wanted a divorce. As far as the underlying phycological reasons that made her "unhappy" with certain things, and despite whatever I did, she remained "unhappy" - well no I don't know why.

Divorced men are just like all people, they are different. Some need time to greive others, not at all. Me, I'm fine. I have friends and family, a job and hobbies, life is good. Haveing to live in a 2 bedroom condo as oppsed to the large house we had really does not phase me (an no snow shoveling). The only times I get upset is when I miss my kids, we share custody and sometimes when its her nights, I really miss them.

Anyway, thats my story, other people have differnt feelings, and your guy may or may not need time to "get over it".

Me personaly, while I am not out there looking, if I do find somebody I know it's going to be a person who meshes with me 100%. No ideas about growing together or differences attract. Your idea may be differnt, but if I am to get married again, I plan on it sticking for more than 10 years.

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