Thursday, December 20, 2007

Is George Costanza Really a Sex Symbol?

After reading the comments to my previous post on nice guys, I read with interest this post on MSN entitled, Dating Advice for Shy Guys thinking I might get some good tips to pass along to any shy male readers. No such luck.

Instead, here is some of the sucky advice that two men! who are the authors of what looks like a rather funny book called Die Happy: 499 Things Every Guy's Gotta Do While He Still Can had to say to those of you too tongue-tied to ask a woman out:

Be eye-catchingly honest
Remember George Costanza’s approach in Seinfeld: “My name is George. I’m unemployed and live with my parents.” Hey, it worked for him. So why not try being straight up with women? Tell them you’re not much of a player. David Wells, 31, confirms, “When I was younger, I made the mistake of thinking I had to act suave,” he says. But since then, he’s upfront about the fact that he’s shy. “A lot of women think it’s charming!” he says.

Ask for help
Damsels in distress have been doing this for years; there’s no reason guys can’t take advantage of women’s desire to swoop in and save the day, too. Just be sure to pick a topic on which women will feel they can offer some assistance. You’ll rarely go wrong seeking style advice (“Excuse me, but I need a woman’s opinion on this jacket. Is it a keeper, or should it never leave my closet again?”) or relationships (“Hey, my pal and I need a woman’s perspective on how long a guy should wait before calling after a date. What’s your opinion?”). Asking for advice will diffuse the pressure of it being a pickup.

Just add a question mark
You’re starting to get to know this woman and suddenly you can’t think of what to say. Here’s an easy solution. Simply repeat the last notable thing she said and place a question mark after it. “Oh, you work as a female professional wrestler; what’s it like??” Bingo.

Seek out the yin to your yang
If you’re not much of a talker, someone who yaks up a storm may well love spending time with you. You know the old “opposites attract” adage. And how Jerry Maguire professed, “You complete me.” Be her best audience ever, and trust us, she’ll keep coming back for more.


Okay, you get the idea, just act like an oppressed woman with the vapors from the 18th century and according to these guys, women will start swooning. Yeah, right. Perhaps the authors of the article were just catering to a female audience at MSN but they aren't doing guys any favor with this pathetic advice.

These guys are teaching you to be the nice guy that women say they want but really don't. So how is this advice going to help? It's more likely to backfire.

My advice, show a little confidence and ignore the above advice.

43 Comments:

Blogger Cham said...

I don't know what you mean by "show a little confidence". A man can be as confident as he wants but that isn't going to initiate a conversation about dating. If some guy comes up to me that I don't know, tells me I am beautiful and then asks me to dinner, the answer will be no regardless of how confident he is. A man needs to start a conversation first so I can find out a bit about him, asking a question is probably the best way for a man to do that.

Telling a woman that you are unemployed and live with your parents right out of the starting gate is really really bad advice. If a man is in a store and is buying a jacket, sure, I'd be glad to help out. Many men are color blind.

Starting a conversation to get to know a person is a good start and doesn't have much to do with being a pushover.

7:34 AM, December 20, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

Cham,

I certainly did not mean confidence in terms of acting like some type of stud--that is as much of a turn off as the opposite extreme of telling a potential date what a loser one is. I meant confidence in oneself that others will find them likable and worth talking to. Personal respect is attractive, narcissism is not. I should have made that clearer.

7:42 AM, December 20, 2007  
Blogger Epinionated1 said...

Sauve and sophisticated? Not really. I read the advice above and asked simply, why do we need so much advice. Are not the advice-mongerers creating a dependence on their own inane babblings?

Don't you dare make a move in the stock market without our proven method of growing wealth!

Can't get him to commit? Here are our tips to snag your dream hunk!

Tired of being sad and lonely on Saturday nights? Woo the women of your dreams with our guaranteed flirtation guide.

You get the idea. Why are we so dissatisfied with taking stock of our lives, matching up current behaviors with our core values and beliefs and then changing that which needs changing? Are we that averse to pain and effort?

Outsource your thinking to some alleged expert, who neither knows you, nor has the slightest conception of what makes you a wonderful (or not) person. Yeah, that's brilliant.

7:48 AM, December 20, 2007  
Blogger Cham said...

Epinionated1, I disagree. Advice books can be helpful, there are certainly enough of them so they must be helping somebody out. Unfortunately for men, there is some really bad advice out there regarding dating advice. Many male advice-givers don't necessarily address how to have a positive and functional relationship but how to get as much sex as possible with as many different women. I am sure that some men out there wish to be a player, but there is certainly a group of men out there that is looking for a productive monogamous relationship and good advice books for them are few and far between. It's kind of sad.

OTOH, there are plenty of good (and not so good) relationship advice books for women in the book stores.

8:11 AM, December 20, 2007  
Blogger tjic said...

The advice about asking advice is, I think, quite excellent.

I am a very very very shy guy (at least in social domains - at work I have no problem interviewing people, directing my employees, negotiating with vendors, etc.).

I am shy to the point that I basically just do not meet women, except through being set up, or online dating, etc.

A few years ago I was shopping for a rug, and I couldn't decide between two. I turned to a woman nearby and asked her opinion. We chatted for a bit. ...and then I kept bumping into her in the store.

Like an idiot, I only realized an hour or so later that I had - unintentionally - actually introduced myself to a strange women and made a good impression, and should have followed up with an invite to coffee.

Sigh.

But, the point is: asking advice works.

8:15 AM, December 20, 2007  
Blogger TMink said...

How about "be yourself" and "keep trying."

My advice to the dating men for 2007.

Trey

9:32 AM, December 20, 2007  
Blogger Ennuipundit said...

Hi Cham, (this is Epinionated1, I edited my blogger identity to reflect my wordpress blog name) Thanks for responding. I'm not saying that advice books aren't helpful. Surely, some are. But I don't think they are truly helpful as a genre.

My trouble with advice books (and advice columns, and too much advice in general) is that many read them and may act on them temporarily. But first it is just temporary. Secondly, most folks I know, though, think that just by reading the book, they are doing enough.

Clearly that's not going to fly. Advice books and advice columns (in general of course) tend to be breezy and light. Obviously, you will find a hard time keeping a casual reader engaged by being frank and brutally honest.

Without some frank discussion, it is difficult to drill through the layers of excrement that the typical self-help book buyer has built up over a lifetime. Many of us are self-delusional when it comes to our choices, and rather than face them personally, advice columns, tend to offer vague bubble gum like options, rather than real advice. Your mileage may vary, of course, but general advice typically is some method designed not to help, but to be marketable.

And to my mind, advice about feelings is not like advice about building a deck. When offering advice on feelings, it has to be personalized. You can take what applies to you from generic advice. That's true enough, but then it's merely platitudes, not really advice. Imagine a "Dear Polonius," column: "Dear Brooding in Bohemia," Polonius replies, "This above all to thine own self be true."

10:00 AM, December 20, 2007  
Blogger Ennuipundit said...

tjic, you are not an idiot. It is not easy when one is used to a certain set of behaviors to realize that one naturally and effortlessly altered that paradigm.

10:05 AM, December 20, 2007  
Blogger br549 said...

tjic - Have you been reading my mail?

10:39 AM, December 20, 2007  
Blogger SlagleRock said...

Helen, you think we should ignore the advice about being honest? I just don't see dishonesty as being a confidence issue, or as demonstrating suaveness. I think it's a moral issue.

11:45 AM, December 20, 2007  
Blogger Terri said...

Helen,
Are you seriously saying that women don't want nice guys?!
If so, you're out of your mind and I would think your own relationship would tell you that.

Just like men want nice/sexy/motherly/easy/hard/bitchy/smart/dumb women, we want nice/confident/sexy/smart/rich/easy/hard/ med.
Relationships are tricky and there is no easy answer. Most of them have a ton to do with timing of the "meet" of someone that catches our eye.

But nice is generally a requirement by both sexes.
If it isn't it's only because of some whacked out history of our own and not because "mean" is what we really want deep down inside.

12:33 PM, December 20, 2007  
Blogger Ennuipundit said...

slaglerock, I don't think it is about not being honest. I can speak for Helen, but I can make the simple observation that if someone is citing honesty as a means of battling shyness in striking up conversations to meet women has already removed the moral angle from the discussion. If you are basically honest, you don't really need to be advised to be basically honest when talking to a member of the opposite sex.

12:38 PM, December 20, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

Slaglerock,

I don't think it's really honesty to tell people right away about your negative qualities. It's best to save the "I'm a loser routine" until you get to know someone better. Think about it, you meet someone and the first thing she tells you is "I'm unemployed and live in my parents basement." It sounds kind of alienating and off-putting. What do you say to that?

Terri,

I think it depends how one defines nice guys. If you are talking about one who listens intently to every word a woman says, asks her about herself using questions as the men in the article suggested, and follows her around like a puppy dog, then no, there are few women who really want a man like that. They may say they want that but they really don't. If you are defining a nice guys as a decent person who stands up for himself and for those he cares about--then yes, women seem to like guys like that.

2:05 PM, December 20, 2007  
Blogger Terri said...

I would definitely say the 2nd definition is accurate. The first definition is not "nice" it's whacko with no life of his own. That's not nice.

And no George Costanza is not a sex symbol and the show where he said who "he is" was the opposite show. It was funny. No one wants total honesty on first meet. You put your best foot forward and then try to maintain. With any luck your best foot is close to who you/he/she is.

I am surprised you'd let others take over the term nice to make it equal to lapdog.

3:49 PM, December 20, 2007  
Blogger dadvocate said...

I couldn't stand the George Costanza character, way too neurotic. For some reason humor based on neurosis in TV shows repulses me.

6:35 PM, December 20, 2007  
Blogger El Duderino said...

Not to dumb this erudite discussion down too much, but I believe the fat man in The Tao of Steve was on to something. His philosophy was be without desire, demonstrate excellence in her presence thereby proving your worthiness and then withdraw, under the theory that we desire that which retreats from us. Your results may vary.
Being very wealthy, tall and handsome seems to work pretty damn well too.

12:32 AM, December 21, 2007  
Blogger jw said...

The advice given men is bad. I think it's cham who makes that point and she is right.

My advice for the shy guy? (I am shy.) Put yourself in places where there ARE women who are looking, (that is seldom a bar!). The more opportunities, the greater the odds that something will click. (My advice for shy women is the same.)

4:01 AM, December 21, 2007  
Blogger SlagleRock said...

OK, if that's what you mean then I agree. Withholding inappropriate details is not being dishonest. I got the impression from the article that honesty meant genuineness, not presenting yourself as something you're not, which I do think is honest. Of course, I speak from the comforts of wedded bliss, so I don't have to wade into this cess pool.

5:35 AM, December 21, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

Slaglerock,

I also believe that honesty and genuineness is important in a relationship, moreso than just about anything else, but negative advertising is not necessarily honest! They are telling a guy to put his worse foot forward, hardly a great dating tip. Glad you are happily married!

7:21 AM, December 21, 2007  
Blogger Jeff said...

This is the shyness program my father put on when I was a geeky teenager.

(1) Spend two weeks talking to EVERY woman you meet --- so long as you have absolutely NO romantic or physical interest in her. Your objective is the get her to smile once or twice, exchange names, then leave.

(2) Same as (1), but now you want to evaluate if she makes YOU smile once or twice.

(3) Develop an interesting life. To avoid rejection, go and do interesting and fun things, and then, invite women along. You can't be rejected because you are going to do something anyway. You adopt an attitude of "today the right woman can win an opportunity to accompany me for a few hours in my interesting and exciting life." My basic problem was that I didn't have an interesting life. So I went out and made one for myself: writing for the local, small-town newspaper, organizing park improvements for the city, improving the public library (with geeky Tolkien books no less!), and stuff like that.

(4) Once I had a life, I repeated (2) with women I was interested in., asking them to accompany me on my life's adventures. I went to Senior Prom all four years in high school because women were all over me. Senior girls asked me out all the time, so I had a date card three months out. I didn't play a single sport, and I wasn't hunky either.

The two keys were: (a) learning to talk to people (especially women) amiably and lightly, (b) getting a life.

It worked for me.

11:04 AM, December 21, 2007  
Blogger Bugs said...

I agree with Helen - this advice comes from the 70s/80s "sensitive guy" files. I tried the "get in touch with your feminine side" thing and most women had no idea what was going on. In the real world - where the experts seldom hang out - women expect men to be men and men expect women to be women. Feminism changed a lot of things, but it didn't change the basics.

1:26 PM, December 21, 2007  
Blogger LarryD said...

Some people think they can though, bugs

11:23 AM, December 23, 2007  
Blogger Chas S. Clifton said...

One of the hardest lessons for a young guy to learn is how to find a middle ground between "nice guy/doormat" and "heartless bastard."

That difficulty is heightened by the fact that the heartless bastards often seem to be doing better in the sexual-attraction game.

11:28 PM, December 25, 2007  
Blogger whiskey_199 said...

Terri --

As Chas points out above, women (on average) do not want "nice guys" but rather those who are jerky. Because jerk correlates with power/status/wealth.

This is particularly true with younger women who on average choose the most "masculine" qualities which means in practice, jerks.

Women really don't care much about a man's character, sense of humor, and sometimes wealth. These are "nice to have" but not anything that closes the deal either way.

Women do want aggressive behavior (channeled such as say, MotoCross), physique, height, and social status. A hyper-cool alt-rocker can beat an investment banker with twice or three times his earnings. None of these qualities relate to "nice" such as consideration, communication, etc. That is simply irrelevant either way for women's choices on average.

Individuals will vary of course. But that's what I've observed and most social science will say about women's selection of men. It would be shocking if it were anything else.

2:19 AM, December 26, 2007  
Blogger whiskey_199 said...

I'll add that the advice for men in dating generally is abysmal.

Since success is all about appearing to be the most socially dominant male available.

"Nice" is irrelevant.

2:25 AM, December 26, 2007  
Blogger Terri said...

whisky_199,
That is such crap.
Do a quick google search and you may find that women will be "attracted" to masculinity, but that does not equate to "jerk".
The definition of nice in this string has been co-opted by weinies.
Nice is nice. And women like nice, just like other people do. Nice doesn't mean sap.
As a general statement women do no like "jerky". They may end up with jerky because people like you probably come across as nice in person and only then would you realize that you have such a broad woman hating views.

9:16 AM, December 26, 2007  
Blogger serket said...

I do not understand why Seinfeld is considered funny. I think the characters should eventually settle down and get married. I still keep in touch with a 21-year-old woman from Colorado, who thinks it is cute when guys are shy. I'm not sure if dating a really talkative woman is the best advice. I've heard that shy guys are often perceived as being arrogant and it is believed by others that you are trying to ignore them when you don't talk very much.

5:04 PM, December 26, 2007  
Blogger Larry said...

Chas,

Heartless bastard gets laid (and relationships) a lot more than nice guy. Believe me, I live both lives and I've done empirical research on the subject. Its a sad state of affairs, but reality should always be the guide, not "what should be."

4:56 AM, December 28, 2007  
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