Thursday, December 13, 2007

What Happened to All the Nice Guys?

A number of readers (thanks!) have emailed me with this link to a post on the best of Craigslist from a recovering nice guy asking and answering the following question:

"What happened to all the nice guys? The answer is simple: you did."

Read the whole thing.

Update: HotAir readers blowback about being a nice guy.

Update II: For those of you at work who are not able to get the linked post--I placed the whole thing it in the comment section below, at around comment 55.

224 Comments:

Blogger vivictius said...

Thats pretty much it. The rule for dealing with 18-30ish women seems to be "act like an ass = get laid".

11:14 AM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Peregrine John said...

Ouch. That's a lot of truth for a short article. But hey, it tells my story pretty thoroughly, down to having a girl in my past precisely like he described: by the time she was for me, I was not for her. (Ok, there were other abusers of my unwillingly platonic availability, but 1 in particular shines like an anti-Polaris.)

If this could be required reading for everyone - male and female - of at least, say, 13 years old, a lot of nonsense could be avoided. And a lot more nice guys could survive with nicety intact.

11:15 AM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Cham said...

My question for this guy is why are you hanging around with a woman who has no romantic interest in you? Best move on and find someone that is interested rather than wasting your time being bitter about a woman who wants to be your buddy but not your girlfriend.

11:17 AM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Kevin M said...

Nice guys may not finish last, but you will find a striking absence of them when you interview the race winners. Additionally, women do not like nice guys. Nice guys are loved by women's mothers, and no woman wants to marry whomever her mother chooses. Nice guys are, effectively, social eunuchs who are considered both harmless and occasionally useful around the house.

I can't remember who said it, but women do truly determine the behavior of men: If women started becoming sexually attracted to men who stood on their hands, half the planet would go upside-down in 24 hours. Nice guys are history because women have no use for them.

So much for the modern woman.

11:30 AM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Darksbane said...

Thats the thing Cham, most nice guys can't tell and the women sure as hell refuses to give clear signals. She wants the nice guy around for minimal effort and will tease or hint just enough to keep him thinking that she's interested. The failing of the nice guy is that he isn't assertive and thinks that what women say they want is actually what they really want.

Back when I was a nice guy I thought it actually paid off, I married a beautiful nice girl. Then she turned out to be a cheating whore. Yep, I gave up being a nice guy after that. If women want guys to treat them like objects and to crap on them all the time, fine I can do that.

11:43 AM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Heather said...

I don't know, I married my nice guy. We we're friends first then we dated.

11:46 AM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Quasimodo said...

Ah, the fruits of the sexual revolution are sweet, aren't they?

Today, nobody spends the time to really get to know a person get to find out if they are someone to whom they can and should commit themselves. No, following the siren call of the 60's and 70's, you just jump into bed with what ever slithers up to you. Then, too late, you find out they are human debris and you are left diseased, broken hearted, bitter, lonely, or sadder, but no wiser. Bon Appetit.

Enjoy the poison my generation left for you. You are to stupid to see that it is poison.

11:51 AM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Rizzo said...

"why are you hanging around with a woman who has no romantic interest in you?"

Well, as someone who has been in the situation, I chalk it up to being young and stupid. I was in high school at the time. Perhaps I was hoping that one day she would have romantic interest in me. She often gave mixed signals (at least from my perspective).

Anyway, it's been my experience that most women, or at least most women who are above average in attractiveness, have "that guy" that they hang around with and don't date. My wife certainly did before we got married. Personally, I think it's completely wrong and unfair, so much so that when I have children, I will discourage such disfunctional, codependent "friendships" as much as I possibly can.

11:54 AM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Sydney Carton said...

This article is 100% correct, which is really unfortunate.

My short story: I was a nice guy in law school. It didn't work out. I learned that women hate nice guys.

5 years later: I'm a lawyer at a BIGLAW firm. I don't pay attention to the girls at all, don't give them the time of day. They're all over me like there's no tomorrow.

Fortunately, at least, for me, I really don't have any use for casual relationships. I'm not in it for the booty, and would like to marry a nice girl. But they don't exist anymore, at least not in Manhattan. So it's the single life for me, forever, I guess.

12:18 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger RodgerS said...

One of the nice guys would like to tell you where to find me. You can see me every day, walking around with a nice Asian girl. Mine is about 10 years younger than me, good job, smart, excellent figure, is very traditional, and is amazed how easily she found me. But then, she wanted a nice American guy, because I treat her the way she wants to be treated AND she is really very good to me. She says I'm not easily replaceable and treats me accordingly.

12:30 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Kevin M said...

RogerS said: "...a nice Asian girl..."

Women: Take note! Asian men treat Asian women like furniture, and Asian women look at American men like we're gifts from summit of Mt. Fuji.

Hope you enjoy dating that two-timing, lying piece of human waste you call a boyfirend, because when the nice guys figure out how much Asian women LOVE US, you will be a long-forgotten memory.

12:37 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Peregrine John said...

Heather's got the right of it - and, by the way, is another reason for the shortage of nice guys! No, I mean it in a positive way. Why are all the good ones taken? Well... because they were the good ones. A senseless woman will abuse the privilege as described in the article and reduce the number of good ones in existence; but a woman of sense will grab on to the good one and reduce the number available by 1.

Between one and the other, yeah, there's quite the shortage. Perhaps we could include a lesson by someone like Heather in that required reading...

12:42 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger The Ferg said...

Look, nice guy does not have to equal pushover. A guy can be nice, respectful, and compassionate while at the same time being firm, steady, and masculine. A nice guy doesn't have to be a little lap dog. If a girl wants a lap dog she'll buy a Chihuahua; she won't start dating an emasculated boy toy.

I happen to be a very nice guy and I married the most amazing and beautiful girl in the world.

The key for nice guys is to quit being a nice guy and start being nice man.

12:46 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Jerrett said...

Whatever.

What about the nice girls that were interested in the nice guy but he was too busy chasing the prettier, thinner girl.

Maybe if the nice guy valued the things he wishes the girl who is using him as an emotional tampon did, then maybe he wouldn't be in the position he is in.

The hypocrisy gets worse. He uses someone else's behavior to defend his own slide into becoming yet another of many douche bags (As if we need more).

While all the while, the nice girl was left waiting in the wings all because of outward appearance.

If the nice guy was willing to date someone more his style he could have the relationship he claims to want. Most likely though, he was just thinking with his little soldier.

There is no excuse for treating other people like crap even if someone in your past did something bad to you.

Grow up.

12:47 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Pete said...

One day, women will find that men behave in the manner that gets them rewarded with sex.

And Jerrett, the nice girls seriously have to meet men halfway. Looking like a girl once in a while might actually result in being asked out, and step two is saying, "Yes."

Not that hard....

12:57 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger br549 said...

I was a dark, brooding fellow when young. Played guitar in rock and roll bands. I got laid more by accident then I ever did on purpose, because of that. Didn't care, either. Way too many too choose from to care. It is weird to me now.

My oldest daughter went for the dark, brooding semi-outcast kid too. She eventually walked away from it, though.

I don't know what it is. One of the mysteries of life. I did take advantage of it back then, though.

When I became a dad, it was a nightmare come back to haunt me.

1:07 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Earnest Iconoclast said...

While there is a lot of truth to the comments about "nice guys" pursuing shallow, not-so-nice women, I observed that a lot of girls I knew in college and high school were attracted to bad boys. Many of these were nice, reasonably smart girls/women who were otherwise sensible and fun to be around. They weren't all shallow but there was apparently a hormonal/primal part of their brain that turned them all gooey when some bad-boy came onto them.

It's not a binary thing and a lot of people get over it, but it sure seems like a real phenomenon.

1:08 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Jerrett said...

"Looking like a girl once in a while might actually result in being asked out"

Pete, I didn't mean to imply that the nice girl is hideous. Nor that she doesn't take care of herself at all or anymore than the nice guy. I simply stated she isn't as pretty or thin as the girls that she's getting passed over for (I think it's telling that you thought that).

They just don't have the genetics to compete with the other girls unless they're willing to do something drastic like plastic surgery.

In other words, like the nice guy usually is, they're average or slightly below average in looks.

If the nice guy was serious about substance over appearance, then he could find someone to give him the love he's claiming to want.

The nice guy isn't any different than the girl that's using him. He's trying to get the best deal he can. Just like her.

He has other options, but isn't willing to go beyond the outward looks to the inner world of substance.

Hopefully that was clearer.

1:11 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger SGT Ted said...

When I became a dad, it was a nightmare come back to haunt me.

It is said that daughters are Gods punishment for being a male.

1:14 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger SGT Ted said...

I wish I could see the article; firewall at work says no can do. :P

1:19 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger RodgerS said...

It never ceases to amaze me that there is at least one in the crowd who has to go into equivalency mode and try to switch the subject to nice ugly girls who can't find a nice beautiful guy, or someone who has to tell the guys to grow up or some such.

Well, it's a waste of time anyway. If the chosen ones want nice guys we can be found, but those of us who have been ignored have moved on and don't want the baggage and history the older chosen ones are dragging around behind them.

1:27 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Darksbane said...

I'm an attractive guy, why should I settle for an unattractive girl? I go to alot of trouble to take care of myself and keep in shape and I expect a woman to do the same. Looks matter just as much as personality.

Now those comments about Asians are something I've never heard before. So what yall did the mail order bride thing?

1:31 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Rizzo said...

Jerrett,

I think you kind of miss the point. First, even if the "nice guy" isn't attracted to the average-looking girl with the great personality, at least he's ignoring her and not using her for his own selfish needs, which is what the women in the present scenario do (not all women, of course, but that's just who we're talking about).

Second, you seem to assume that there's some kind of negative correlation between attractiveness and positive personality characteristics, which is, to say the least, somewhat questionable. Less attractive women aren't necessarily more pleasant than more attractive ones (If anything, it's been my experience that it's the opposite, though not necessarily strongly so).

1:34 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Lady Jane said...

I agree with Jerrett. I'm a nice girl and I have never treated a guy in this manner. But, I still can't find a nice guy.

1:36 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger RodgerS said...

Mail order thing? Get out of your tree, go to the city, and just look around. If you can't find an Asian girl you need glasses.

AND dude, you can't build a relationship via email or by filling out a purchase order. Doc, this guy needs counseling.

1:37 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Jerrett said...

"It never ceases to amaze me that there is at least one in the crowd who has to go into equivalency mode and try to switch the subject to nice ugly girls who can't find a nice beautiful guy, or someone who has to tell the guys to grow up or some such."

Well, no one likes the truth.

I know I didn't.

But there it is anyway.

1:38 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Marbel said...

Of course there is bad behavior on all sides. But really, as other commenters have said, if women would stop having sex with jerks, we'd see a great reduction in jerks.

When I was dating the fabulous, grownup man who is now my husband, we used to hang out with a casual social group full of great men, few women. They were all computer geeks, some a little lacking in social skills, some not great looking, but interesting, smart, sincere men who would have been great husbands.

I invited a few female coworkers to some of our get-togethers. Not one would look beyond the shyness, the bad hair, the geeky lack of interest in fashion.

I remember one in particular who complained a lot about her boyfriend calling her from jail. (He didn't work there.) After attending one of our get-togethers, she decided that all the men were too short. And she continued to hang on to the (presumably tall) jailbird boyfriend.

When I quit my job 4 years later to stay home with my first baby, she was still single and still complaining about the lack of decent men.

1:44 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Jerrett said...

I know I'm trolling at this point, but I have the day off. Since I was the nice guy and I've gone through this to the other side to a happy, stable relationship I feel compelled to state the other point of view.

"I think you kind of miss the point. First, even if the "nice guy" isn't attracted to the average-looking girl with the great personality, at least he's ignoring her and not using her for his own selfish needs, which is what the women in the present scenario do (not all women, of course, but that's just who we're talking about)."

Look man, if someone is offering to do this and that for you you are not obligated to say no. If someone isn't responding back to you, you have to man up and admit that she's just not that into you and move on.

"Second, you seem to assume that there's some kind of negative correlation between attractiveness and positive personality characteristics, which is, to say the least, somewhat questionable. Less attractive women aren't necessarily more pleasant than more attractive ones (If anything, it's been my experience that it's the opposite, though not necessarily strongly so)."

I can see why you think I think that from what I've wrote, but I agree with what you just said. I didn't mean to imply that ugly people are prettier inside than pretty people. They're not.

I was trying to say that people should be realistic with their own appearance and what that means.

I completely agree with Darksbane

"I'm an attractive guy, why should I settle for an unattractive girl? I go to alot of trouble to take care of myself and keep in shape and I expect a woman to do the same. Looks matter just as much as personality."

Which is really all the "using bitch" character is saying and doing.

1:49 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Rizzo said...

"Look man, if someone is offering to do this and that for you you are not obligated to say no. If someone isn't responding back to you, you have to man up and admit that she's just not that into you and move on."

True, but that hardly puts the "user" on the moral high ground. My point, quite simply, was that it's much more moral to simply say you're not interested (or simply not be interested and ignore someone completely) than to feign interest for the purpose of taking advantage of someone or to satisfy some selfish need.

Yes, guys are rarely angels, but we're usually not all that deceptive about what we want.

2:01 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Stormbringer said...

I agree with the article. After being conditioned to be a nice guy, what did I get for it? Used, and cast aside. I'm not much of a puppy dog anymore.

2:02 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger RodgerS said...

I just got my latte, so I'm about to leave.

To Jerrett, assuming you are a man, it's interesting that you feel compelled to provide what you think are women's issues and women's point of view on behalf of women.

2:02 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Darksbane said...

"Mail order thing? Get out of your tree, go to the city, and just look around. If you can't find an Asian girl you need glasses.

AND dude, you can't build a relationship via email or by filling out a purchase order. Doc, this guy needs counseling."

Oh piss off you ass, I was just asking if that is what you did, since I've met plenty of Asian girls here in america and they are no different than any other girl.

2:06 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Jerrett said...

"To Jerrett, assuming you are a man, it's interesting that you feel compelled to provide what you think are women's issues and women's point of view on behalf of women."

LOL, I guess I must be a "gender traitor". BTW, this is my point of view, no one else's.

I'm just trying to bring balance to this wine fest.

The guy who said that you have to go from nice guy to nice man said it best.

Basically, I believe the guy who wrote the original letter is playing the victim card. He needs to take responsibility for himself and not expect someone else to tell him what to do (ie - the "using bitch" character).

A man takes responsibility for his own actions and doesn't blame someone else, even if they didn't act on the complete up and up.

This blame creates a resentment that creates an arrested development in the man's emotional spectrum.

If you "man up" and put the blame where it belongs, yourself, you'll be surprised what this does for you. This will allow you to grow up and become a man. This will make you more masculine (which, face it, this isn't a stereotypical trait of a nice guy).

Once you become more masculine you will be surprised how women respond to you.

IMHO

2:11 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Rizzo said...

"A man takes responsibility for his own actions and doesn't blame someone else, even if they didn't act on the complete up and up."

Taking responsiblity for your own actions and blaming others for their actions aren't exactly mutually exclusive activities. For example, if I leave my car door unlocked, and someone steels my cd player, I may blame myself for leaving the car unlocked, but that doesn't make the thief any less a thief.

Just saying.

2:19 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Anthony said...

Two comments:

1) I have come to believe most "nice guys" are not really nice guys at all. They're really jerks with no self-confidence and put up the nice guy act as a cover. They're really very selfish and (most) women can sense this immediately and have nothing to do with them (romantically). It's largely because they know that the faux nice guy really only wants her to buck up his ego. What woman wants that?

2) Women don't go for the "jerks", they go for the guys with self confidence; trouble is, they (women) often confuse arrogance with self confidence and therefore end up with a lot of jerks.

2:22 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger RodgerS said...

Well, with all the nice guys being advised to man up, that seems to me the answer to the question of where did all the nice guys go.

We figured out what was going on, man upped, changed, moved on, found women who wanted us, and yes, we can be seen but are not available.

Those nice guys that didn't improve, got worse, and sullen and I can't tell you where they went because those aren't the guys I know.

I went to a party last night that my girlfriend could not attend. When the dancing music started I went home. All those nice girls and the old chosens at the party were left behind to complain about where I went. I went home to my Asian girlfriend who worked late.

2:30 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Darksbane said...

Oh yeah that makes a bunch of sense anthony.

So your first statement says "Nice guys just pretend to be nice, but are really just jerks like everyone else." Women see through the evil ruse with their wonderful powers of perception which somehow blinds them to your second statement that those confident guys are really just assholes (like the 'nice' guys) but women somehow can't magically see through that.

2:33 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Jerrett said...

"Taking responsiblity for your own actions and blaming others for their actions aren't exactly mutually exclusive activities. For example, if I leave my car door unlocked, and someone steels my cd player, I may blame myself for leaving the car unlocked, but that doesn't make the thief any less a thief."

The "using bitch" didn't sneak up behind the nice guy's back and rip him off. She was most likely very upfront about using him as an emotional tampon. I'm sure all his friends saw it and tried to warn him.

What I'm trying to say is, if you blame her because she didn't tell you to go away, then you're going down the victim lane. It isn't her responsibility to tell you how to live.

She likes having a supportive, non-sex guy around for a billion reasons. She's getting what she wants. Why should she be expected to change anything? She's not evil, just practical.

Calling the nice guy a puppy is just a nice way of calling him a boy.

I don't see a victim here. The guy doesn't have a gun to his head, just blue balls in his pants.

If he doesn't like the situation, it's HIS responsibility to move on.

When you blame others for your own decisions you will not grow up.

2:34 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Rizzo said...

anthony,

I suspect you're right. Although, I do know several jerks with high levels of self-confidence who would play the nice guy act as a cover. But, yes, often the nice guy act is manipulative in and of itself.

Also, I've heard, over the years, plenty of women complain about guys being jerks, when in reality, the guy that prompted the complaining in the first place is actually a pretty good guy. Most of the women I've heard complain about not being able to find a "good guy" weren't exactly the type of women who really should end up with a nice guy (although most probably do, and then complain about him anyway).

2:36 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Jerrett said...

"We figured out what was going on, man upped, changed, moved on, found women who wanted us, and yes, we can be seen but are not available.

Those nice guys that didn't improve, got worse, and sullen and I can't tell you where they went because those aren't the guys I know."

You just said what I've been trying to say but better and with less words.

2:37 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Rizzo said...

"She was most likely very upfront about using him as an emotional tampon."

No, that's rarely the case. There's usually a great deal of deception going on.

"She's not evil, just practical."

Never said she was evil, just wrong.

2:38 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Marbel said...

"Women don't go for the "jerks", they go for the guys with self confidence; trouble is, they (women) often confuse arrogance with self confidence and therefore end up with a lot of jerks."

I don't know about that. It's been over a decade since I've spent time hanging out with a bunch of single women, but in my experience, most women can figure out a jerk pretty quickly. There may be some self-delusion going on ("he'll change and won't be a jerk to me!") but, I think most women go into a relationship with a jerk knowingly.

Or, if they don't know immediately, they hang on to the relationship after they've figured it out, rather than dump him and be without a date for the company Christmas party or the next wedding they're invited to.

2:44 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger reality2007 said...

Jerrett, Jerrett, Jerrett, you poor delusional sod.. there isn't even such a thing as the 'ugly nice girl' anymore! The last one of those I met was around 1996. This is 2007- ALL women today are extremely demanding, obnoxious, and I swear as stupid as a bag of rocks, completely irrantional, and want to be treated as a 'queen' even if they're as ugly and fat as a hippo.

Now, don't get confused- a lot of women will be FAKE nice just long enough to get what they want, but if you're intelligent you can see right through it and see that it's fake (which it always is if it's an AW) there are no AW who are 'nice' to men anymore just to please the man. Those days are gone forever, so you better get with the program and quit being so naive.

AW today are straight from Hell and never learn in this life and just go straight back when they die, period. AW's only contribution to the world is excrement.

2:47 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Rizzo said...

"What I'm trying to say is, if you blame her because she didn't tell you to go away, then you're going down the victim lane. It isn't her responsibility to tell you how to live."

I agree, to a point, but just because someone allows you to treat them poorly, doesn't mean you should.

For example, a friend of mine continually cheats on his girlfriend of 5+ years, and she largely knows about it, but does nothing since, I presume, she thinks she can't do any better than him (or something like that, I'm not entirely sure what her thinking is). So, I suppose then, because she doesn't leave, the cheating is OK, right?

2:55 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Darksbane said...

Damn, and I thought I was bitter...

2:58 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger RodgerS said...

There is one guy I know who I play tennis with. I don't know if he was a nice guy or a jerk originally, but I do know he is part of the leftover crowd.

He is in his late forties, goes through girlfriends at the same rate I go through cartons of milk. He freely acknowledges he doesn't want a relationship and is incapable of making one work.

He always finds a reason to move on.

My take is that leftovers seem to find each other.

2:58 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger jaerae said...

As a female who has known plenty of nice guys in her day, treated some of them pretty lousy, and managed come through safely on the other side, I thought I'd share my story:

My husband and I met early in college, when he was the epitome of nice guy - respectful of women, smart, polite, religious... and (in my 19 year old eyes) completely boring. I genuinely enjoyed his company (we had great conversations about all kinds of things you can't talk to the bad boys about), but I could tell -- as you always can -- that he was into me. And I was too footloose and fancy free at that age to be serious about him (or anyone else for that matter). One night he poured his heart out to me and I, well, I to say the least I didn't reciprocate. The next day I wrote him an e-mail (I know, I know) to tell him that we could be friends but I would NEVER, EVER EVER be interested in him in *that* way. And if he wanted to accept that, great... if not, then that was okay, too. Well, time went on and we did stay friends. But instead of having the parasitic relationship described in some of these comments, we were real friends - sometimes when I called, he was busy; he never rubbed my back or watched chick flicks with me; and I never once cried in front of him. We talked about our bad relationships, yes, but more for a he said/she said perspective than anything else, and we spent a lot of time laughing at each other for our youthful transgressions with the opposite gender. Over time, he grew up, gained some self-confidence, dated some other girls, and what do you know? Five years later, after doing some serious growing up of my own, WE started dating... and now we have the best marriage of anyone I know. And he's still a nice guy.... but a confident one, which makes all the difference. And he STILL gives me crap about breaking his heart via e-mail!

The point is: It is each person's own responsibility to a) behave decently and honestly with his/her friends, lovers and acquaintances, and b) walk away when the relationship becomes unhealthy. Not to say that girls who treat "nice guys" badly don't deserve criticism; they do. But I agree with some of the other commenters that "nice guys" are often unattractive to their female "friends" because they don't seem to be able to stand up for themselves, or are too "smitten" to objectively critique the situation and walk away. And weakness (whether real or perceived) is not sexy to either gender.

3:02 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Jerrett said...

reality2007,

You are a hateful and delusional person.

I have known so many amazing and incredible women that I've lost count.

Maybe if you weren't such an angry, self pitying douche bag, maybe, just maybe, you could find peace with this world and what it has to offer.

3:02 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Jerrett said...

"Rizzo said...

I agree, to a point, but just because someone allows you to treat them poorly, doesn't mean you should."

You're completely right. Re-reading what I wrote, I can see that I'm coming across as taking away ALL the blame from the female.

She will be the ultimate loser in all this if she doesn't grow up herself.

I'm just trying to explain what helped me get through the situation and become a better man for it.

3:04 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Wormwood said...

I have to agree with jerrett on the issue of not having to become a mean person to get womens attention, and not the part about ignoring plain, but nice girls. Look at all the examples of strong men, but not bad men that are attractive to women.

Women want certain traits, and these traits are often associated with the "bad boy", but are not exclusive to him. Pop culture is full of them. From the Fonze to Rhett Buttler these men represented strength, independence, and courage without bad behavior. I suggest that you pursue these characteristics, and work on becoming not just a man, but a great man, instead of a lapdog, and you will find that you can be attractive to women without sacrificing your personal ethics.

3:09 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger serket said...

I think it's a good post and people on Craigslist seem really frank about sex. I consider myself a nice guy, but I don't have any experience with this particular story about being ignored, but my advice to women would be: if you want a nice guy, treat them with respect, don't be rude, and don't be controlling.

3:19 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger TMink said...

Hmmm, I wonder if the loss of the anatomically intact good man in our media has been part of the problem. No video roll models, well, not many.

Trey

3:29 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

Jerrett,

"There is no excuse for treating other people like crap even if someone in your past did something bad to you."

Good point. Spread the word to some of the angry gender feminists who think that anyone with a penis is fair game.

3:35 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Wormwood said...

Trey,

That is an interesting idea. Look at how the presentation of fathers has changed since shows such as "Father knows best", and compare that to the presentation of fathers today. Fathers and by extension men are portrayed as stupid, self absorbed, incompetent fools.

3:37 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Jerrett said...

"Good point. Spread the word to some of the angry gender feminists who think that anyone with a penis is fair game."

So true. In the end, misguided resentment and hate is a poison both genders have to contend with.

3:43 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

To all,

Some of you are at work and not able to read the linked post at Craigs list as it is blocked. Here it is:

"I see this question posted with some regularity in the personals section, so I thought I'd take a minute to explain things to the ladies out there that haven't figured it out.

What happened to all the nice guys?

The answer is simple: you did.

See, if you think back, really hard, you might vaguely remember a Platonic guy pal who always seemed to want to spend time with you. He'd tag along with you when you went shopping, stop by your place for a movie when you were lonely but didn't feel like going out, or even sit there and hold you while you sobbed and told him about how horribly the (other) guy that you were fucking treated you.

At the time, you probably joked with your girlfriends about how he was a little puppy dog, always following you around, trying to do things to get you to pay attention to him. They probably teased you because they thought he had a crush on you. Given that his behavior was, admittedly, a little pathetic, you vehemently denied having any romantic feelings for him, and buttressed your position by claiming that you were "just friends." Besides, he totally wasn't your type. I mean, he was a little too short, or too bald, or too fat, or too poor, or didn't know how to dress himself, or basically be or do any of the things that your tall, good-looking, fit, rich, stylish boyfriend at the time pulled off with such ease.

Eventually, your Platonic buddy drifted away, as your relationship with the boyfriend got more serious and spending time with this other guy was, admittedly, a little weird, if you werent dating him. More time passed, and the boyfriend eventually cheated on you, or became boring, or you realized that the things that attracted you to him weren't the kinds of things that make for a good, long-term relationship. So, now, you're single again, and after having tried the bar scene for several months having only encountered players and douche bags, you wonder, "What happened to all the nice guys?"

Well, once again, you did.

You ignored the nice guy. You used him for emotional intimacy without reciprocating, in kind, with physical intimacy. You laughed at his consideration and resented his devotion. You valued the aloof boyfriend more than the attentive "just-a-" friend. Eventually, he took the hint and moved on with his life. He probably came to realize, one day, that women aren't really attracted to guys who hold doors open; or make dinners just because; or buy you a Christmas gift that you mentioned, in passing, that you really wanted five months ago; or listen when you're upset; or hold you when you cry. He came to realize that, if he wanted a woman like you, he'd have to act more like the boyfriend that you had. He probably cleaned up his look, started making some money, and generally acted like more of an asshole than he ever wanted to be.

Fact is, now, he's probably getting laid, and in a way, your ultimate rejection of him is to thank for that. And I'm sorry that it took the complete absence of "nice guys" in your life for you to realize that you missed them and wanted them. Most women will only have a handful of nice guys stumble into their lives, if that.

So, if you're looking for a nice guy, here's what you do:

1.) Build a time machine.
2.) Go back a few years and pull your head out of your ass.
3.) Take a look at what's right in front of you and grab ahold of it.

I suppose the other possibility is that you STILL don't really want a nice guy, but you feel the social pressure to at least appear to have matured beyond your infantile taste in men. In which case, you might be in luck, because the nice guy you claim to want has, in reality, shed his nice guy mantle and is out there looking to unleash his cynicism and resentment onto someone just like you.

If you were five years younger.

So, please: either stop misrepresenting what you want, or own up to the fact that you've fucked yourself over. You're getting older, after all. It's time to excise the bullshit and deal with reality. You didn't want a nice guy then, and he certainly doesn't fucking want you, now."

Sincerely,

A Recovering Nice Guy

3:46 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Matthew said...

You need to go to Asia to meet an Asian woman, if that's what you want. I'm a stereotypical nice guy (sans lapdog qualities) and I had plenty of success meeting women. It doesn't have anything to do with wealth or someone looking for a visa, although there's plenty of that. Most of the societies are still more traditional and the qualities that define a good man are different than the ones used in the modern West.

3:51 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger SGT Ted said...

Now that I've seen the article, I see what the deal is.

It used to be being attentive, considerate and kind towards women were traits associated with being a gentleman. Now, they are associated with being a nebbish, boring lapdog. By alot of women, it would seem. No wonder I was single for so long. I married a woman who admires genltemanly traits.

3:57 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Ace said...

how does being attentive, considerate and kind prevent a man from actually just asking a girl out?

Is asking a girl out inherently impolite or ungallant?

4:22 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger baldilocks said...

Yeah, Mr. Craigslist should go get some poor Asian (not Asian-American) girl and make her the brunt of his neurotic passive-aggressive tendencies. /sarc

4:35 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger SGT Ted said...

how does being attentive, considerate and kind prevent a man from actually just asking a girl out?

Is asking a girl out inherently impolite or ungallant?


Who said anything about that? I asked plenty of women out. At least, women who didn't turn me off the moment they opened their mouth the stupid started pouring forth.

But, yea I was the boring nice guy. It all worked out in the end.

4:42 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

Ace,

Thanks for the link but just because I link to something does not mean I give it the "Instapundit link of silent approval" --what a rude thing to say both to me and to my husband. Just because one links to something does not mean they agree with it 100%. There are parts of the Craigslist post that I agree with and parts that I do not. I put it out there for people to discuss, not necessarily because I think it is the absolute truth. I am not encouraging "Nice Guys" to keep up with their pussy behavior. That is your interpretation.

Anyway, in answer to your question, the guy in question understands that the girl does not want him. The nice guy makes it clear in his post. The girl knows he has a crush on her, she laughs about it with her friends. She does not want him--he slinks away, wondering why no one does. He tried to be the guy that women say they want, kind and understanding. But he found out differently. How would asking her out change that?

4:45 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Alexia said...

Bah humbug:

Nice guy, why don't you stop trotting that the heels of that tall georgeous size two brunette that treats you like crap in the vague hope she might bat those baby blues at you and look at me? Yah, I'm a bit over weight and wear glasses, but I have baby blues too and would treat you very well... but no you wont

Wait, fast forward five years, I've dropped some of that weight and have contacts. I am the same person I always was, but NOW you are interested. Eat my shorts. You're "nice" before in the hopes you'd get the hottie, but the truth is, you were just as shallow as she was, so I guess you deserved to be walked on all those years.

I married a man that many people didn't see as a catch. He treats me like a gentlemen, opens the doors, and loves me when I am fat and loves me when I am skinny. Loves me when I am old and grey and look like hell in the morning.


I have no pity for the "nice guys" who I watch slavering at the feet at the hottie... well nice guy, *you* are hooked on looks, why shouldn't she be?


For the nice guys, who don't let a woman, no matter how hot, snap him around, thats a real man

4:48 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Darksbane said...

Only way asking her out would have changed that is he would have wasted less time on her (provided he was not such a pussy that even if she said no he'd still persue)

4:49 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Adrian said...

Not asking you out on a date isn't some sort of mistreatment of you. If that nice guy was romancing you and the hot chick and then slept with you a few times until you found out about the hot chick, then it would be comparable to a woman that leads a man on just for her own selfish gratification. Since that nice guy didn't do that to you, you shouldn't be all pissy with him and you should be a lot more sympathetic to the abuse he has received.

Any woman that feels entitled to male attention is not a nice girl.

4:56 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger br549 said...

Boy, this thread just may bring a little response in a couple days or so.

Hey ladies!! I've decided to become PISSED at the whole world again. I am dark and brooding, and I can slam power chords and scream like a fork lift just ran over my foot as well as ever!

And I STILL don't wear underwear!!

Come and get your LOVE, girls!

Bring the viagra!

5:17 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Alexia said...

I have every right to be as pissy as the "nice" guy does to feel spurned by the hot chick who just won't recognize his "niceness."

The nice guy is mad that the hot chick ignores him. I guess that means he isn't really nice because "any man that feels entitled to female attention is not a nice guy." And of course, not being asked out on a date isn't some mistreatment of the nice guy.

My husband is short, 5-7. I feel badly for him that many girls shallowly refused to date him based on his height.

However, my husband, often the nice guy, was also never a doormat. He didn't hang around some hot chick, taking abuse, in vague hope she'd buy the niceness and date/sleep with him.

Very often, the nice guy isn't really "nice" but is merely using "nice" as a method of trying to get the hot chick. After all, the hot chick isn't allowed to be shallow - look at hollywood movies that pairs the "hot chick" with the homely guy... but yet, never the other way around.

The truth is, the nice guy who focuses on chasing the hottie girl and being her doormat is just as shallow as she is. He is blind to the more porky of us. So nope, still no pity. Until he himself learns not to be shallow, he is doomed to be surrounded by the shallow.

A truly nice man looks for a nice girl... which means, yah, gotta have some hot attraction, but also doesn't waste time on the shallow.

And I am sure everyone here will claim that I am just a vengeful ugly girl. No, I am cute, but I am not nearly as attractive as Dr. Helen... ROwwwR!

5:23 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Adrian said...

And, just to add to what a few others have said, all this "man-up, grow up, learn to recognize when someone doesn't want you" is the point of the article. That's exactly what the nice guy is saying happened to the nice guys -- they manned-up. And now, they are a lot more self-centered and suspicious. They give a lot less quarter in romance and ditch someone that isn't responding well enough to them and giving them enough of what they want. They are taking that exact advice. If you've "grown up" like this, then you aren't a nice guy. You may not be a bad guy, but you're no nice guy.

The guy in he article selflessly gives and gives and doesn't ask for much in return. That is almost the definition of "nice guy" in the context of the article. To respond to it by saying "man-up" -- that is exactly what the nice guy did. Now had the woman in the article valued the selflessness of the nice guy, she would have treated him better and not been so sociopathic about it. And, that nice guy wouldn't be "manning up" and become just a guy.

Right now, it would be really easy for anyone to murder you if they didn't care about the consequences. They would just walk up to you, pull out a gun and shoot you in the head. And, what could you really do about it? Even if you had a gun, yourself, you probably don't walk around with it out and he is just going to wait until your back is turned, anyway. Are you such a fool for putting yourself in a position for this to happen? Of course not -- we all put a WHOLE LOT of trust in each other and the people around us not to act like sociopaths because the alternative is a really hard life in the wild that is probably more dangerous than living here in civilization. On the other hand, if it did start happening that sociopaths would just blow people away like that -- strangers they never met before -- what would you do? If it got bad enough, you would start being a belligerent ass hole who refuses to talk to other people, stays holed up in your basement, is extremely suspicious of anyone that comes around. And, you would say "You f*cking sociopaths wonder why no one wants to be neighborly!"

That nice guy just put blind faith in the girl to not be a sociopath and to not lead him on and use him for her own shallow gratification by just being the best possible companion he could be to her. Because it didn't work out for him over and over again and he got so abused that way, because people are selfish and mean, he has bitterly resigned himself to the alternative, namely being just a guy and not a nice guy. Now, in some ways, it is a maturation process and he has grown -- is more mature now. But, every bit of the sentiment expressed in that article is appropriate down to and including the sentiment that selfishly mistreating men has caused them to be less honorable, more selfish, and so on (i.e. just guys -- not "nice guys").

I guess the point is that it is an absurd twisting of reality to act like nice guys are weak or childish. In fact, they have discipline, determination, commitment, loyalty and are a hell of a lot more mature than their critics in that they correctly recognize what it takes to have a good relationship with someone.

5:24 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Adrian said...

The nice guy is mad that the hot chick ignores him.

No, the nice guy is pissed at her for using him which she clearly did. She did not just ignore him. He never used you because he did just ignore you. At least, that is what is in the article -- it is talking about a guy that was always willing to hook up and do stuff for a girl and with a girl that used him because of it. His unwillingness to do the same for you isn't even remotely equivalent to her using him. If he screwed around and led you to believe he was interested in you just to get some and then dump you, then that would be equivalent.

5:29 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Alexia said...

by the way, it is possible to be nice without being a doormat. What gets described as "nice" in a guy is really "I'm a doormat and will do anything for sex." Women don't respect that, just as much as MEN don't respect the female version, where nice = desperate.

5:29 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Alexia said...

I read the article. The nice guy followed her around and went shopping with her and listened to her cry when her boyfriend was a jerk. NO WHERE does it say that the girl "led" him on beyond spending time with him, which is what one does with friends. Nowhere does it say that she "dated" and then dumped him. I guess the poor girl can't be friends with a guy and act in a friendly manner because that might be "leading him on." So I beg to differ, the parallel is there, and I have been the "supportive sister" as a nice guy "I had a crush on" tells me I am a wonderful friend as he complains x hottiness won't pay attention to him.

5:34 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Adrian said...

She should have told him no and not asked him to go shopping with her recognizing that he likes her. (And, the article does make it clear that she does recognize that he likes her.)

Look, you guys are just endorsing a policy of selfishness. If that's the way you want it, then fine. Guys are just as blameless for leading women on just to get sex and then dumping them when they get tired of sleeping with them. If what the girl is doing in the story is okay, then when guys just gratify themselves that has to be just fine, too. "The women that they love and leave should have just known better, blah blah blah."

Is that what you are endorsing? I doubt it, and that is why it is a big double standard.

5:41 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Ace said...

Dr Helen,

I think you've mistook my joshing for an attack.

Ask your husband about the "Instapundit link of silent approval." It's a charge made against him by the left all the time that he necessarily endorses every post (and every post on every blog) he links. It's a JOKE playing on that silly charge.

Again, i think if you ask your husband about it he can confirm the intent here was to be silly about a dumb charge made against him all the time.

Just joshing, no harm meant.

The rest of the post is meant to be rather similar in spirit as regards you.

No offense intended, honestly.

Ace

5:49 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

Ace,

It didn't come across as a joke--I understand that the left does that to my husband. But I did not think that you would stoop to that level.

5:56 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Alexia said...

I don't have sympathy for the nice guy that lets himself be used as a doormat simply because a girl is hot and I don't have much sympathy for the girls who let themselves get treated like crap just because a guy has money. That is the parallel I think you were searching for.

What you are missing is my point. I actually don't approve of her at all. But I say that if a guy is letting a girl treat him like crap simply because she's hot, then I don't have much sympathy because he is just as shallow as she is. A girl that lets a guy treat her like crap because he's hot and has lots of money... nope no sympathy here either. Trotting around like a puppy dog after a girl so "some likes you" rather than being who you are is manipulation.

The article is bare bones, so I must draw from my experience. When I have seen this pattern, the guys are chasing hotness and ignoring the potentiality of the perfectly nice girls, the "sisters" around them, simply because they aren't hot.

As a girl who also has had a nice guy or two interested (and wasn't interested back), if they never SAY anything, its very hard to suddenly stop, particularly if you have a honest friendship there too, and say, "Okay bob, you haven't actually said you want to date me, and my friends think you might have a crush, but I am not interested... but can't we be friends anyway?" If you are wrong and instead Bob is just a nice gay guy you are dying a thousand deaths of humiliation. If you are right, kiss the friendship away for good anyway.

Maybe its just easier to ignore it?

We have the archetype of the "nice guy" and we all feel bad for the nice guy being treated badly by the girl. Can't she see how great he'd treat her? But we never question the nice guy's decisions or motivations in this... OFTEN they are just as shallow as the hot girl.

5:58 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger whiskey_199 said...

I think nearly everyone here is wrong.

1. A common complaint among men is the echoing of "Mystery" (the Game) complaint that their fathers never taught them how to pick up women.

Big Red Flag. Men a generation or so ago did not need to shed "nice guy" stuff because ... women were constrained. Less available birth control, condoms, rigid social expectations, less opportunity for women made women's choices constrained towards: stability, loyalty, compassion, good earning potential.

The kinds of things that the current workplace demands.

2. Women are now unconstrained in their choice of men.

What women want are not "nice guys" or "jerks" but the most hyper-masculine, high testosterone, Alpha-Male guy available (on average, statistically).

By definition this creates a class of a few winners (the hyper-masculine) and most everyone else LOSERS. Particularly those who fit in at the workplace, and are team players, cooperative, stable, industrious etc. Women demand instead aggressiveness (often counterproductive at the workplace), high-testosterone behavior such as X-Games, rock/rap musicianship, other high-risk behavior. Not the least of which is the judgment of "other women want him -- he must be worth having." See the "Man Hands Picture" episode of Seinfeld where that even works for George!

Most men nice guy or not cannot mold themselves into the "winners" with women unconstrained in choices. They simply are not hypermasculine (which has risks that as noted in comments above, has men in jail, domestic violence, cheating etc). Women WILL share (see the toleration of cheating) since they don't have downside risk: they can care for children themselves with their own income, and the upside is boys who are also hypermasculine and thus far more likely to reproduce.

What women can and should expect is the following:

A. Overt misogyny from the many men who won't "win" in the new sexual selection criteria.
B. The new generation of boys maturing into hypermasculine men, complete with hypermasculine competition for women -- far more physical violence (on average) and less economic success. In short the implications of Idiocracy. After all since much of behavior (including testosterone levels) is inherited, and those are the men reproducing, you will see more of it.
C. Far more genetic diseases since you'll see a genetic bottleneck (a few men doing the most reproduction).

Note I'm speaking about broad, statistically based societal trends. Individuals will be guaranteed to vary but overall I think the trends will be quite clear.

Though I suppose you could make a lot of money by opening franchise schools teaching men to "fake it" wrt testosterone levels, including injections and modeling risky behaviors and have women "pretend" to be girlfriends ("the other women want him" validation). I'm shocked Mystery has not already opened up franchises along this line.

But IMHO the big issue here has been missed by everyone -- that sexual selection by women has changed massively as their societal status improvement has left them unconstrained.

6:03 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Alexia said...

Whiskey:

Actually you are right to a certain extent. That change is what has given rise for the "cougar class" of females. Financially secure themselves, they make choices not based on security.

HOWEVER, one problemin your analysis is that it ignores that the ratio between the female and male sex is 50/50 approximately. Thus, if there are only a few "winners," versus a world of loser males, that leaves a mulitude of woman without a match, because women rarely share. That wont happen, so the "loses" gets mates too.

I think people here mistake nice with doormat. Women rarely respect doormats. Neither do men.

6:09 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Adrian said...

No, actually, the easy thing to do is to be upfront and just not selfishly use him for your own emotional gratification. If it's a big joke with your friends that he is your "boyfriend" and you have to "break up" with him when you eventually get a real boyfriend, then you are just passive-aggressively using him without really reciprocating like you ought to be. And, he is just pursuing you like all men have to pursue women, waiting for his efforts to pay off.

And so, the analogy is a guy using a girl in the very same way for the sorts of things guys want -- like sex. To keep it a strict analogy, imagine a "nice playa" instead of a "nice guy". He doesn't ever make any promises, but he totally romances you and you eventually start thinking that he is just too "manly" to say things like "I love you". Surely you have seen this one play out, right?

Well, if that guy is okay and the other girl is okay, then it is simply a bad idea to be a nice guy. And, that was the point of the article. You calling the nice guy in the article a doormat just serves to bolster the article's point.

6:13 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Ace said...

Dr. Helen,

Apologies again then. I thought you'd realize I wouldn't stoop to repeating a silly charge by Yglesias and Kevin Drum over what is a pretty low-stakes posting, but again I seem to have mistaken the proper balance between deadpan and broadcasting a joke.

I joke about the "Instapundit link of silent approval" on my site. I don't mean it seriously. I think the whole thing is silly, and I thought that would come through by parroting one of the left's favorite charges against your husband.

Anyway, I am sorry.

I was wondering why you didn't link back... it didn't occur to me it was because I had offended you. I thought you just hadn't noticed.

Sorry for the whole thing. I can make it clear on my blog it was a joke if you like. I know a couple of commenters also seemed to think I'd for some reason suddenly declared a blog-war with you.

Chastened,

Ace

6:14 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Adrian said...

Thus, if there are only a few "winners," versus a world of loser males, that leaves a mulitude of woman without a match, because women rarely share.

He actually directly contradicted that in his post...

"Women WILL share (see the toleration of cheating) since they don't have downside risk: they can care for children themselves with their own income, and the upside is boys who are also hypermasculine and thus far more likely to reproduce."

And, it is true. It's not that women want to share -- they just aren't as opposed to it as they have to be to be unwilling to. We do, in fact, see a lot of "sharing" going on -- a lot more than before. It isn't like they want to, but they still tend to forgive infidelity a lot more often than, a man, say, does. It is precisely that imbalance that really may well go back 2.5 million years that causes the outcome whiskey is talking about.

6:22 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Peregrine John said...

alexia: You can be nice, and not a "doormat" and still be basically used for comfort and left behind. No one respects a doormat, but you can be respectable and still abused.

Also, I think there's a miscommunication somewhere along the line about what constitutes "winning" - but though it's probably the answer to the disconnect here, it's more than I have time to jump into now. Suffice to say that "standard, permanent monogamy" is not the goal of everyone (certainly not the "bad boys"), which pulls the rug from under the 50/50 notion.

whiskey: I'm shocked Mystery has not already opened up franchises along this line.
He hasn't had to. Or more to the point, there are enough that franchising is probably unlikely.

6:26 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Pete said...

Hopefully that was clearer.

No, it's not clearer.

The nice girls tend to do their damndest to blend in, in a thousand different ways.

You want a date? Get noticed. You start acting like you're actually interested in men, and open to talk to them, and you'd be amazed how things change.

Act like a girl. Look like a girl.

6:40 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Ace said...

sgt ted,

I think we have different assumptions about what a "Nice Guy" means.

You take it to mean just that.

But the linked Craigslst posting demaonstrates it means more than that in this context. He means a "nice guy" who buddies up to a girl, apparently in hopes that a friendship will blossom into a romance organically.

And without ever asking the girl out.

It's an extremely low-percentage play used by too many self-styled "Nice Guys" who fear rejection so much they just invest months and even years of their life in hanging around a girl they like without every actually making their romantic intentions known.

So when I say "How does being a Nice Guy keep you from asking a girl out?," I'm using Nice Guy the way this Craigslist guy seems to mean it -- the guy who's always there to be "friends" with the object of his affections but who is somehow unnoticed.

I think too many guys do this. I used to do this myself. It doesn't work and "Nice Guys" ought to be informed of (for example) my own abject failure with this strategy.

6:46 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Pete said...

And jerret - riddle me this:

How come if I want to get laid, all I have to do is play the jerk, and if I want to be left alone, play the nice guy?

You can argue with me all you want. The results speak for themselves.

6:46 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger SGT Ted said...

What strikes me is the nice guys rants about getting burned and the female response is to say he's not a nice guy, really, he's actually a shallow cad doormat loser. It's the MANS fault once again. Jaysus, Mary and Joseph!

It's like the sad but true joke: If a man is alone in a forest with no women around and says something, is he still wrong?

Women talk all the time about how they want to have men communicate with them, "tell me your feeeeelings" but when one actually does so, he is attacked, the most merciless attack being from a woman. How come he can't be accepted at face value?

Sometimes I think we need to bring back the scolds bridle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_scold

6:59 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Jerrett said...

Pete,

I went through the jerk stage. It does work. I even recommend it to some guys. I think it's best to skip the "hate women" stage if you can, but anger and resentment are what they are and sometimes they need to play out before we're able to see clearly again.

Most men have to sew their wild oats before they're able to move on from sex being central to their life. I'm sure you know there's more to life and relationships than sex, but a hungry man needs to be satiated before he can find his true footing.

Do as you will is the best advice. If you seek to improve your life and make yourself a better person, then most paths you take will lead you to an oasis for your heart.

I do know this, a nice guy may have trouble getting action, but a nice man has to turn down advances on a regular basis.

Even short, funny looking guys like me.

But you are correct, most people with low self esteem respond to being treated dismissively.

The fact is, most women have low self esteem.

But the one worth having, the one you REALLY want, will respond to honesty and strength over ANYTHING else.

7:15 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

Ace,

No hard feelings. It is hard sometimes in a blogpost to see humor --no need to do anything. I often write things that people take out of context or don't get, so I can't be too sensitive. Thanks for clearing up the misunderstanding.

Sgt Ted,

I think you are correct. I constantly hear women and experts telling men to open up and communicate, then they ridicule them if they do. The best way to get laid is to fake confidence and don't listen too much. However, if a man wants a real relationship, it is best to find someone who doesn't play games but this is not an easy task.

7:21 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger SGT Ted said...

However, if a man wants a real relationship, it is best to find someone who doesn't play games but this is not an easy task.

I agree. I was single for a long time because I don't play Stupid Female Tricks at all. But, I was rewarded with a fine wife because I stuck to my guns.

7:27 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Bugs said...

What happened to all the nice guys?

Guys like me killed 'em.

7:27 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger some said...

"Women talk all the time about how they want to have men communicate with them, "tell me your feeeeelings" but when one actually does so, he is attacked, the most merciless attack being from a woman."

What? The guy *didn't* communicate. That was the entire problem.

Ages after the fact, to a bunch of strangers, isn't communication.

7:29 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Ace said...

Dr Helen,

Thanks.


Sgt Ted:

"What strikes me is the nice guys rants about getting burned and the female response is to say he's not a nice guy, really, he's actually a shallow cad doormat loser. It's the MANS fault once again. Jaysus, Mary and Joseph!"

There are two elements to this. One is that women prefer guys who actually make a play for them -- they want courtship, they want to feel pursued -- and they see the guys who never make a true overt play as weak. Then they're annoyed at being attacked by guys who never actually asked them out in the first place.

Two: read Jarrett. All these self-styled "Nice Guys" pining for their Dream Girls seem to forget that there are a few Nice Girls out there who probably liked THEM, but they were too busy mooning over the unobtainable Dream Girl.

And they're probably not particularly sympathetic, as all these Nice Girls have similarly been spurned by people who wouldn't reciprocate their affections.

7:47 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Adrian said...

But the linked Craigslst posting demaonstrates it means more than that in this context. He means a "nice guy" who buddies up to a girl, apparently in hopes that a friendship will blossom into a romance organically.

And without ever asking the girl out.


How do you figure? In the article, it is clear to all her girlfriends that he likes her, and it is clear enough to her when she finally gets a boyfriend. And, it is clear enough to the boyfriend who certainly wouldn't tolerate such a relationship. If it really is just completely platonic, then you wouldn't mind your wife carrying on with a "nice guy" like this, right? Of course you would. So, how is it, then, that everyone seems to know what is going on, and yet he hasn't made his intentions clear?

The reason this is a "low percentage play" is because women will just take advantage of it, use the guy for their own trivial emotional gratification and then move on. That's not the guys fault -- he's doing the right thing. It is the girl and when she ends up in an adversarial relationship where everyone is real selfish, then she is getting just the outcome she, in fact, forced to occur. The reason that men do not respect men that act like the nice guy is because

1) such men are not Casanovas and so lose status for that reason

2) they at least superficially seem weak

But, in fact, if you want something different than the norm where half of all marriages end in divorce and the other half endure serious issue like infidelity and the like, then you absolutely have to play it the "nice guy" way. There is no negotiating that. There is no free lunch. And, while the theoretical possibility that you could get lucky and maybe everything will just work out anyway may be quite tempting, you are playing against the house, and the house always wins.

You were born with only two practical choices in life: either suffer the indignity of your own bad behavior or the injury of someone else's. If you do not pay the piper and endure the injury of the passive-aggressively manipulative women out there, you must suffer the indignity of a mediocre relationship.

7:47 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Ace said...

I think the "Nice Guys" are failing to realize something simple: Unless you're a knockout with major bank, your romantic appeal is... selective.

And you'll probably wind up with someone else whose appeal is selective. Some good points, some bad points.

It's hard to get lucky in this regard, as one needs to find someone who has the good points one prioritizes highest, *and* who also looks at one's own good points as being relatively high-priority.

It's not that women are difficult. it's that you have to get pretty lucky to find someone in your league who just happens to be what you're looking for (mostly) and who, in turn, finds you to be just what she's looking for (mostly).

And guys who are just blaming women for that are blaming the messenger. Women aren't difficult, life is. Women are just the ones whose unfortunate duty it is to tell you on occasion that life frequently doesn't give you what you want.

7:52 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger br549 said...

You can't mean (those who have responded, anyway) that none of you have ever had friends of the opposite sex. Someone you bump into every now and then, played softball or tag football with, go to the park, a museum, hike a trail, do the occasional Sunday brunch? A friend of your sister's, etc.? Fishing? A couple beers? Someone to help you pick out the right suit without having to sign a marriage license first?

Seems most are talking about the rejection of an exclusive relationship with one by another. I guess that's always gonna hurt.

8:17 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger WomanOfAbomination said...

It's simple. A woman wants a man, not a doormat. Have some guts and use your words. Not this mind-reading nonsense. If she rejects you, then move on.

I never judged on looks much. The man who has the courage to come out and treat me like an equal and speak his mind always got my attention.

8:22 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Blake said...

I think Ace is right as far as what's meant here by "nice guy". (It did take me a while to get the "silent approval" joke, Ace. Eh, you can't hit 'em all out of the park.)

Being a nice guy doesn't hurt. Having a spine is a serious help. If you have no spine (male or female) how can you have a relationship? The next ill wind will topple you.

But none of this is really about relationships as it is sex. If you want a lasting relationship, you've got to find that person who's going to stick with you--and with whom you're willing to stick--when the glamour is gone.

And, seriously, if you let yourself become bitter over the way a handful of people act, you weren't made of very stern stuff to begin with.

8:45 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Fred Drinkwater said...

Yeah. The girl I was interested in, and did all the "nice guy stuff" just like in the CL post; she never paid any attention to me until AFTER the night at a bar when she asked me if I wanted to dance, and I told her I was busy smoking a cig, but I'd be happy to dance when it was finished. I'm still a nice (and married 22 years) guy, and she went off with her gambler boyfriend to try to make a living scamming Reno casinos.

9:04 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Adrian said...

You can't mean (those who have responded, anyway) that none of you have ever had friends of the opposite sex.

Sure, but her girlfriends don't all sit around and snicker about how I "like" her, and she doesn't have to blow me off when she gets a boyfriend so that he doesn't get jealous. Most of the people around me don't think there might be something more there.

I don't think this is just about sex, either -- not for the nice guy. He is genuinely and honorably pursuing her....

9:26 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger LissaKay said...

I haven't the time to read through all 100+ comments right now, so pardon if I am redundant here ...

4 years of High school with one guy, then married to him, 3 kids and all of a sudden I was 30, divorced and clueless about how the Real World(tm) works. For the next 8 years, I dated with the best of intentions but was always left holding a broken heart wondering what the hell happened. (Still wondering, BTW). About 5 years ago, I gave up, for general peace of mind and the preservation of my sanity.

However, I did have many close "guy friends" through those years. Men that I loved dearly and consider, even now, to be my very best friends. Romance never entered the picture. I think it was mutual in each case, that romance and/or sex would only threaten beautiful friendships. Even now, I could call up any one of those guys and he would be there, and vice versa. Those are relationships that will last a lifetime.

But as for nice guys ... 8 years of dating, then a 5 year hiatus, as mentioned above, and I finally found him! Or he found me, or something. I wasn't even looking when all of the sudden there he was! But he truly is one of the real nice guys ... Helen knows him and can vouch for that ... heck, she was even there as things started to blossom!

There are jerks on both sides of the gender divide. It just takes patience and determination to find the right nice guy/gal for you!

10:01 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

Lissakay,

So glad you found a nice guy --if anyone deserves happiness, you do.

10:19 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Jim C. said...

Comedian Tracy Smith has a very funny act with a humorous take on this subject starting at about 2 minutes.

http://www.deartracy.com/media/rams/Premium_Blend_DSL.ram (high speed)
http://www.deartracy.com/media/rams/Premium_Blend_dial.ram (low speed)

At about 4 minutes: "We have fantasies that men can never live up to. Then when you finally meet a guy who buys you flowers and opens doors for you, you go, 'F*cking wimp! Momma's boy! Go on back to momma and send me somebody who'll treat me like crap!' "

10:57 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger whiskey_199 said...

The biggest rebuttal to Ace's comment, is that the FATHERS of "nice guys" obviously had no problem getting married and having kids.

Yet their sons do.

So what happened?

In my view, a massive societal shift. I don't see the explanation for: prior generation fathers get married, have kids. Their sons do neither. Barring a massive shift in women's selection. Given that on average men will resemble their fathers.

11:40 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Ace said...

I think you guys are taking "Nice Guy" to mean "guy who behaves like a gentleman" when in fact it means "guy who never asks girl out but just becomes 'friends' with her in hopes she'll fall in love without an actual pursuit."

I think our fathers' generation just asked girls out, mostly. I think this "friends" thing is more common now.

12:26 AM, December 14, 2007  
Blogger David said...

All of this is funny. I completely sympathized with the original poster. Many years ago I was a neglected nice guy. I've been married to a fine woman for a couple decades now. For me things worked out.

But I still associate with women. Over the years I have seen countless women waste their lives with men who treat them badly. When they finally get up the nerve to leave the scum who cheats on and/or abuses them, after a few weeks they hook up with someone else EXACTLY LIKE HIM.

Any "nice guys" who might take an interest spend most of their time alone. I don't know why. Apparently, I'm not that nice a guy -- and better off for it.

12:31 AM, December 14, 2007  
Blogger jpb said...

I love it when a woman tells me Have some guts and use your words. Not this mind-reading nonsense.

Does anyone else see the irony?

1:33 AM, December 14, 2007  
Blogger doctrine said...

jpb,

I noticed that and considered commenting on the mind-reading thing earlier.

Excellent catch!

3:09 AM, December 14, 2007  
Blogger jw said...

"What happened to all the nice guys?" Answer: "YOU DID!"

That is it!

The question and answer describes many of the male/female relationship problems we have in our society.

Do you know what drives me NUTS? The masses of women who cannot and willnot see the problem or their own hand in creating the problem! EVERYTHING is the men's fault, without regard to even the most basic of common sense.

I've been the nice guy. It doesn't work and just caused me heartache. It was when I didn't care anymore that I started having good relationships which lead to a good marriage where I can SAFELY care.

My first REAL date with my now-wife was to take her counting birds in a particularly fetid and infested swamp. A woman who can cheerfully survive that is one worth the time and work to get to really know and she was/is!

3:29 AM, December 14, 2007  
Blogger Michael said...

As a reformed 'nice guy' and now happily married, let me offer this:

Be a man, not a nice guy.

Unfortunately, as most readers of this site know, manhood is under constant attack and is generally in a sorry state of repair nowadays, so that makes the challenge even harder.

The reason why so many youngish women are attracted to assholes is because they offer, superficially, the traits a man should posses- assertiveness and confidence.

By the time a particular women figures out the fatal flaws associated with assholes, she's wasted years of her life and perhaps a trip through divorce court or two.

To top it off for such unlucky women, the 'nice guys' she passed over before are still the same beta males who lack any kind of manly fire, or figured out they need to be men, found a good woman, and are happily married.

The 'system' in general is in a sorry state overall and is failing to create proper men in sufficient numbers.

Anyway, here's the 'be a man' anndendum to being a nice guy:

1. Go for what you want. Accept that defeat will happen and walk away. If you're interested, and she just wants another friend, walk away. You have enough friends.

2. When in front of romantic prospects, or in general, don't let yourself get crapped on. Stand up for yourself. It is necessary to be able to be an 'asshole', and to be so on occasion when the situation warrants it.

3. Tell her 'no' when she's being stupid or ridiculous, and 'no' on occasion when you simply prefer the opposite of what she wants. just to establish it's an option. This shows you're not a doormat and you have your own will.
(God knows my wife has stopped me from doing some stupid things, but I'm not afraid to stop her as well.)

To quote a Mudhens song (New England regional band),
"Be kind and Be gentle and don't run away, it's these words I'll live to my final day."

Being a proper man who will acquire and retain a good woman is not an easy task.

You need to be kind when it is required, harsh when called for, and adult enough to tell the difference between the two situations.

You need to be assertive enough to go after what you want, wise enough to realize when you can't get it, and strong enough to walk away.

Further, you need to be a good judge of character so you don't end up marrying some broken witch who will later burn you, and you need to be strong enough in a relationship so that you don't indulge her feminine silliness, to help her maintain and grow her good character. (Again, my wife has set me straight several times and helps me with my character, but we're not talking about women much here)

Trying to be a good man, I've found, is often like balancing on a gymnastics beam. There is room for error between any two opposing traits, but not much. It's worth it though.

\didn't read the thread, don't know if that was covered, no time to find the original piece.

8:03 AM, December 14, 2007  
Blogger L.Austin Bernard said...

Well I just woke up and Dr. Helen has given me a post to o push off from finishing my Grad paper for a few more minutes. Because heck I need that haha.

I want to say that I am a recovering “Nice Guy”. Thats not to say I'm not nice it is saying that I understand the defect of that behavior and work very hard to keep that from going down. In the guy “Nice Guy”ism is a sort of kin to White Knight syndrome. The guy was raised with women having a high degree of social value. Respect for women... which in and of itself is a very good thing. The problem in White Knight Syndrome is you respect the woman more then yourself, and if she does something wrong you want to save her. So when your interested in a Female friend but she keeps going out with the wrong kinda guy you are there to help her and do whatever because the princess is in the tower with the dragon and you think if you slay it your going to live happily ever after. But as a Knight you got some armor on and the Squishy needs you have. They don't get expressed because that Armor is your mask. You want to use this well decorative mask to attract the mate not necessarily letting that person inside.

Now communications and relationships are not just the fault of one person. And many women are at fault in creating the bitter nice guy or the “nice guy finishes last” scenario. I like to describe it this way, they are stuck emotionally in High School. The Mentality of just have fun, go for the popular guy, go for the guy that pisses daddy off, go for the guy I have some shallow attraction to, etc. This is an immature attitude to have relationships of more then a couple of dates about. But when you are in High School and sometimes into college this Attitude isn't that bad. Thing is lots of women -in My experience 40-60% of them- never emotionally mature into sound relationships. Women don't think “Is this the kind of guy I'd like to settle down with?, Is this the kind of guy I'd like to have kids with?, Am I just dating this guy because I have some issues with my father and I'm still manifesting them?” and so women go out with this emotionally retarded mentality. They tend to associate with Women and Gay men (no offense to any gays in the audience) who help reinforce the mentality.

How do you get into recovery? First you try to train yourself to see when a girl uses her relationships and attractions to work out messed up Psychological issues in her brain. EVEN IF that girl is smoking hawt and rich and IN TO YOU... you walk away. Because a relationship of a romantic kind with that girl will be hell until she gets her head right. While the White Knight may have the armor on you are a squishy bit of human Flesh. When your in a relationship of any kind with anyone respect your own needs and express them in an appropriate manner. If your needs are unreasonable if a person actually serves a positive role in your life they will tell you. A very important rule of poker I take into life “Don't send good money after bad.” Some times when you give of yourself you just lose what you put out there. You can try to put more out their in an attempt to recoup the loss but that puts the whole thing into a vicious cycle. Just don't do it. But yourself out there if it will work... but if it doesn't work have the sense to write something off. And lastly know when to call your shots. This is a universal rule I have when dealing with people. Just some times in life your not going to be able to help a person, or get them to listen to you. With a little self training you get to recognize when you can help a person (as my psych professor used to call it a teachable moment) and when you can't. If you have a girl in the middle of chaos your interested in and she really wants out make a move... but you have to get your head right and get grounded so you know when that is.

People have lots of messed up issues about relationships. And they go out into the marketplace and broadcast their pain and hurt like a toxin. Its a minefield out there. So try to build a good mine detector in your own head.

8:28 AM, December 14, 2007  
Blogger Cham said...

The white knight syndrome is very different from nice guy syndrome. The nice guy is trying to make a romantic relationship from a platonic relationship. If a man tells me he wants to come to the mall with me to look for shoes, then I am led to believe that this is a guy who likes shoe shopping and wants to be my friend. If a guy asks me out to dinner and a movie, that is a date. A man who is using shoe shopping to try to start a romantic relationship without being clear about it is playing a mind game, a mind game he is going to lose because he is not being straight forward (and they say only women play mind games!).

The writer of the Craigs list post is bitter because he was being a buddy to a lady who was dating someone else and he didn't end up romantically involved with the hot chick. Did he expect her to begin a romantic relationship with him while she was clearly dating someone else?

The craigs list guy is also bitter that his platonic female friend was attracted to a good looking, fit, rich, stylish boyfriend. Yes, that is what attracts women to the opposite sex. This guy was clearly too lazy to buy some new clothes and hit the gym. I bet the object of his affection wasn't fat and ugly, if she takes care of the way she looks then she probably values physique and dress. Cleaning up your look and making money does not equate being an asshole.

It's nice to see that the majority of the male commenters see right through this guy rather than buy into his excuses for why he never got too far with this lady. This isn't a nice guy at all, but someone who has much work to do in the psych departent.

9:06 AM, December 14, 2007  
Blogger L.Austin Bernard said...

White Knight and Nice guy are deeply connected. BELIEVE ME i speak from the experience of picking up my own pieces and helping a small number of friends try to sort their own mess out. Its the negatives of Chivalric attitudes that we men have. We assume that such attitudes are in the culture of women and they haven't been for some time. So the Craig's list guy goes shoe shopping with the girl waiting for the right moment to sing of his epic love in Iambic Pentameter (Note: While I am making this comment in Jest I actually did have a friend who did that... good grief). And MOST of the women who are the negative side of this coin know at a subconcious level that their male friend is interested in them.... and they avoid it because it puts them into potential for causing a conflict. A conflict which could potentially end a valuable friendship. Women in Relationships tend to be averse from the kind of conflicts just outright saying "Look I'm just not interested in you." whereas we men want that.

and by assholes I hate to say this its never the guy who is rich , well groomed, or well dressed thats the issue. More often then not the asshole has no money (though he may front like he does). Is even less attractive then us (and believe me that happened to me twice and that burned me). He doesn't even need to be well groomed either (though he usually is)

These guys know how to press the right buttons to attract the person with the gaping holes in their psyche which will allow them to be Emotionally and Sexually abusive to them. (and by Sexually abusive I don't mean things like rape. I mean things like Sexually sleeping around and whatnot). These women have in turn a thing similar to the white night syndrome turned on in these situations "I can fix him"

You can only Fix something that wants to be fixed if that something is PEOPLE.

So the "Nice Guy" desires a woman who wants to be abused/misused. But when the critical mass hits and the asshole leaves then she goes to the nice guy for the emotional gratification only she can provide him. Its another reason she tolerates the sexual tension. She knows its like a fire extinguisher "Break glass". Some nice guys get lucky and even get sex out of it. But a relationship... no my friend that doesn't happen. If the nice guy had sex it becomes a "Mistake". Otherwise she thanks him oh so much and then repeats the bad programing she has in her head psychologically. This cycle of idiocy continues until you realize whats going on

"The only way to win is not to play"

9:20 AM, December 14, 2007  
Blogger L.Austin Bernard said...

-also-

Most guys aren't this emotionally wrong either. This whole situation involves three damaged personae "The Bad Boy", "The Princess", and "The Nice Guy"

all three need some serious head shrinking to get right with themselves.

9:21 AM, December 14, 2007  
Blogger Dr. Reg Adkins said...

Hello Dr. Helen,
Dr. Reg here.
The issue isn't really blowback about being a nice guy.
It is more about not knowing the needs of your own underlying temperament and seeking to meet those needs in superficial ways.

10:10 AM, December 14, 2007  
Blogger Dr. Ellen said...

I'm nice, and I married somebody nice. But it took us until our mid-thirties to find each other. It's coming up on thirty years now, and we're still nice to each other.

But it sure was frustrating for us, being in the looking game.

10:28 AM, December 14, 2007  
Blogger WomanOfAbomination said...

"Blogger jpb said...

I love it when a woman tells me Have some guts and use your words. Not this mind-reading nonsense.

Does anyone else see the irony?"

I personally don't use mind-reading nonsense, and don't approve of it for either sex. It's a practice that strikes me as deceitful. If a person is interested in someone, or wants something, they should come out with it.

That said, I do so love irony.

10:35 AM, December 14, 2007  
Blogger br549 said...

Is it just me, or do we all want to find "the something wrong" lies with someone else?

I suppose we all have fragile egos to hide away from others. Even those that truly understand it better than most. That's kind of hiding in plain sight, I suppose.

I'm happy I decided to stop at excellence, and not take it all the way to perfection. Truly, it's lonely at the top.

11:43 AM, December 14, 2007  
Blogger SGT Ted said...

Its good to see your humble side showing thru BR. :)

1:17 PM, December 14, 2007  
Blogger JM Hanes said...

Nice guys don't expect women to pay for friendship, decent treatment or "emotional support" with sex. That's bad boy attitude #1.

Can any of No-More-Mr.-Nice-Guy's defenders remember ever deciding to find someone sexually attractive? I sure can't. Are you really ready, willing and able to pony up for any woman who does you a favor -- regardless of her motives?

No need for the genuine nice guys out there to despair! You've got the Cinderella syndrome working in your favor: women may date a lot of bad boys, but more often than not, they tend to settle down with the kind of man even their parents might approve of. Sorta like a lot of guys. Go Figure.

2:31 PM, December 14, 2007  
Blogger Video said...

Whole bunch of good comments here (read 'em all).

I think I've detected a couple of common threads among damaged women. (These may also apply to men, but I don't have any experience with that end of the spectrum.)

1) Kindness is equated with weakness;

2) Generosity is considered tantamount to stupidity.


This ethos may be due to a larger issue: The enormous number of women who are confused about what a healthy relationship with a man looks like. By way of explanation, I've been divorced a couple of years, and have done far more dating and screwing during that time than I would have preferred to. (What can I say? It seemed like a good idea at the time.) With one exception, all of the women I have met have volunteered that they were raped as children or adolescents by their fathers, male relatives, teachers, etc. I can't be having some sort of unique experience here; this is evidently a social problem of epidemic proportions. And the mental health fallout is huge.

So it's not so hard to imagine that a comparatively large percentage of women are seeking what's familiar on the visceral level: abuse and neglect. It's a safe bet most of them don't even realize that's what they're drawn to.

No bitterness here; it's more wearisome and saddening than anything else.

4:58 PM, December 14, 2007  
Blogger Freeman Hunt said...

Jerrett is the voice of reason in this thread.

I married a nice man. There was certainly no shortage of women looking to go out with him.

I'll be very blunt:

Guys who complain about being "nice guys" and not getting girls generally have a problem that has nothing to do with being a "nice guy." Lack of confidence, lack of masculinity, being a doormat, whining, etc. All of those things are girl kryptonite. If none of those problems are present, then the guy is usually the type who only goes after long short gorgeous girls or who only goes for emotionally unstable women that he thinks he can "save."

Sure, jerks can rack of plenty of one night stands and emotionally dependent women on call, but if that's what a guy is looking for then he's not really a "nice guy."

5:35 PM, December 14, 2007  
Blogger Freeman Hunt said...

Actually now that I see more of the comments, there are many voices of reason in this thread.

5:36 PM, December 14, 2007  
Blogger br549 said...

Thanks, sgt. ted. I felt the thread could use a little bit of ridiculous -on-purpose banter. A few of the female responses on the superior hi-way got to me.

freeman hunt...about your 5:35 P.M. post......uhh, what?

6:08 PM, December 14, 2007  
Blogger br549 said...

By the way, Dr. Helen. What's with the new fancy-dan logos?

6:14 PM, December 14, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

br549,

I have no idea. They popped up on blogger this morning and I can't get rid of them. They are on all sites that use blogspot so I guess they will fix it at some point. Just enjoy the fancy blogger title until they do...

6:21 PM, December 14, 2007  
Blogger Mortimer Brezny said...

What about the nice girls that were interested in the nice guy but he was too busy chasing the prettier, thinner girl.

Niceness has nothing to do with weight. And nice guys aren't peeved because they can't get hot women. They're peeved that so many women, hot to average, are short-sighted.

I have no idea whether I am handsome. Some women say that; others don't. (Though I will say that the more attractive women I have dated or been with say I am, whereas the less attractive women I have known disagree.) Sometimes the women I fuck are overweight (but kinky; sorry, there has to be some compensation). Other times they are supermodel hot. Some are very smart. Others are of average intelligence. I don't rule out any race, ethnicity, religious affiliation, etc. I look at the whole package, including appearance, though I don't care whether a woman is stylish.

I used to be a nice guy. Not because I was weak or stupid or not assertive. But because I was raised to respect women and I thought the way to start a meaningful relationship with a woman was through authentic and deep friendship.

That shit don't work.

Ok?

It don't fucking work.

You end up being her therapist and other dudes swoop in for the easy lay. You basically are the warm-up guy. You get her all emotionally hot and ready for a man to give her the goods. And then some other dude pinch hits while you're not around. I didn't even realize this is what was happening until one time I was at a girl's house and this lame-o kept calling to badmouth me to her. He kept her on the phone for maybe two hours talking, talking, talking about deep, emotional things because he was afraid I was about to do her. (I wasn't, but I realized what his fear was about.)

Now, I just don't make friends with women anymore. I don't. I meet them, try to have intelligent conversation, and see if they're interested in sex. If they are, I try to bang. If not, ok, later.

Why don't I even try for more these days?

1. I'm not getting emotionally twisted up over an untrustworthy whore with mental problems.

2. I have only one life and have better things to do than be some woman's surrogate therapist. I'll fuck a woman if she says she's a recovering anorexic, but I'm not marrying her, and I don't care to hear about it after dinner.

6:47 PM, December 14, 2007  
Blogger Adrian said...

Well, damn! Now weren't we talking about why guys don't marry... ? ... somewhere... ?... around here?

LMAO!

But, I'm sure its cuz of nintendo -- that's gotta be IT!

7:12 PM, December 14, 2007  
Blogger JM Hanes said...

Mortimer Brezny:

"I'll fuck a woman if she says she's a recovering anorexic, but I'm not marrying her, and I don't care to hear about it after dinner."

Not to worry, she'll be too busy to talk to you after dinner anyway. What you'll be doing with yourself though is another question.

7:13 PM, December 14, 2007  
Blogger Mortimer Brezny said...

Not to worry, she'll be too busy to talk to you after dinner anyway.

I actually dated a recovered anorexic. Anorexic, from when she was a dancer. Not bulimic. She ate all of her monkfish. She demanded that I take her back to my apartment. So, you're wrong.

But, the fact that she was an Old Testament Christian (no, it makes no sense), believed in the "power of crystals," and that the couple sitting next to us at dinner had the following colloquy while she was in the bathroom (no, I can't prove she didn't vomit, but I didn't taste any vomit in her mouth later) ruled her out of serious contention:

She: Why is he treating her that way?
He: He thinks she's just interested in him for his money.
She: How do you know that?
He: It's true.

Pretending I'm a delusional woman-hater who can't get laid is just sad. Get out of denial and deal with the fact that what I wrote is neither false nor misogynistic.

7:34 PM, December 14, 2007  
Blogger Adrian said...

Hey, don't attack Mortimer, he's doing just what the girl was doing in the Craig's List post. He's just being practical and fulfilling very real needs of his own.

"[He] likes having [an available, just-sex girl] around for a billion reasons. [He's] getting what [he] wants. Why should [he] be expected to change anything? [He's] not evil, just practical."

Sound familiar?

8:05 PM, December 14, 2007  
Blogger Mortimer Brezny said...

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

8:11 PM, December 14, 2007  
Blogger Adrian said...

At least you're not delusional enough to expect that this is all going to lead to some sort of a meaningful relationship, and you certainly aren't expecting it from the "bad girl" you are dating at the moment.

8:42 PM, December 14, 2007  
Blogger AFFA said...

I don't think "girls like jerks" is quite as straightforward as some here assume.

I think it's just as common for men who are attractive for another reason (wealth, fame, appearance, etc) to become jerks as a result of all the attention. I knew a couple guys who were "nice" until they became popular. Every short-term relationship after that seemed milk away a bit of their kindness and decency. They still had whatever it was that made them attractive in the first place, so they continued to get girls in spite of becoming a jerk.

I've known a few women who only date losers that treat them like dirt. I'm not saying they don't exist. But those who are attracted to jerks tend to have other issues that make them unsuitable for a long-term relationship. So they'd still be unavailable for anything serious even if they dated "nice guys." Before you get upset about those women saying no to you, consider the consequences of one of them saying yes.

Confidence really is key for men. Fortunately, you don't have to actually be confident, you just have to fake it. As you have more success with women, you will naturally become more confident. And, of course, there's the risk that you'll turn into a jerk.

Being nice isn't the same thing as being a doormat. You want to be the guy that women want to have fun with, not the guy women call when they're depressed. Misery may love company, but it rarely leads to romance.

Don't hang around one girl for a year as the Craig's List poster did. That's at least 11 months of wasted time as hope triumphed over experience. You're either attracted to someone or not. It's the same for women, from what I hear. That initial attraction (or lack thereof) can be overcome or change with time, but it is more efficient to ask out many women than to try and change the mind of one woman. Also, it was creepy the one time someone had an inexplicable crush on me and tried to hang out with me all the time. I expect it is equally uncomfortable when guys do that to women, and I've tried to avoid such behavior since then.

Contrary to the conventional wisdom, I suggest trying to remain friends with women who turn you down. Even if they may use you for emotional support, that is good practice, doesn't cost you anything but time (unless they have problems serious enough for a real therapist, which is a whole different subject), and the relationship does not have to be as one-sided as the Craig's List example. You can use her for things as well, such as introductions to plenty of other eligible women. Look at even failed relationships as opportunities. I admit this is somewhat cynical. Or "practical."

Don't give up your own life to give someone emotional support. That is being pathetic, not nice. But if you can be friends with a woman, sincerely enjoy helping her out when you can, and offer comfort and support from a position of strength (instead of just "putting up with her" in order to keep an unlikely fantasy alive), she will usually speak well of you to her friends.

Lying and flattery also work very well, but there are some obvious problems with that approach if you want a long-term relationship based on trust and not mere dalliance. If you just want lots of cheap sex, lying is the easiest approach, but it is not risk-free. If you live in one place too long, pretty soon even strangers will know you're a liar. Learning how easy it can be to talk some women into bed may also unfairly lower your respect for the entire gender and require a few years to return to a more healthy attitude. So I can't recommend the dishonest approach.

Telling the truth about my net worth works wonders now that I'm no longer young, stupid, and willing to take advantage of it. And there are many problems with dating women who are attracted to money. I've had enough personal experience with get rich quick schemes that I actively avoid attracting women these days instead of pursuing them.

It does provide for some cheap entertainment, though. I dress cheaply, don't take good care of my appearance, drive a beat-up car, and do not do any of the things I'd advise others do if they want to attract women. So I get a great deal of amusement from how a few women (nowhere near the majority, but enough to make me a bit wary of any "nice" girl's motives, too) treat me when we first meet to how they treat me after they know I'm rich.

9:25 PM, December 14, 2007  
Blogger Mortimer Brezny said...

You can use her for things as well, such as introductions to plenty of other eligible women.

That hasn't worked since high school. Very few people have large social networks outside of an educational environment.

9:45 PM, December 14, 2007  
Blogger JM Hanes said...

Mortimer: "Not bulimic."

Right, I always get 'em mixed up. A guy who won't make friends with women because he doesn't want to get "emotionally twisted up over an untrustworthy whore with mental problems" might want to brush up on his definition of misogyny though. Just a thought.

Adrian: "Hey, don't attack Mortimer..."

What's to attack? It's not like he's pretending to be nice. That didn't get him what he wanted, so instead of holding a grudge, he moved on, decided meaningful relationships didn't have to include friendship or respect, and let his inner bad boy out. He's apparently living his dream, not "looking to unleash his cynicism and resentment" on any hapless woman looking for more, á la Craigslist's Recovering Nice Guy. I'd say he's just confirming that bad boys can, indeed, get laid, and giving all the guys who want the brand of fulfillment he's enjoying an unvarnished look at what you have to give up to get it, no?

10:46 PM, December 14, 2007  
Blogger br549 said...

So what you guys are saying is that dating an anorexic would be a cheap date if you go to dinner before the movie, but taking a bulimic out to dinner is just a waste of money?

11:18 PM, December 14, 2007  
Blogger Mortimer Brezny said...

A guy who won't make friends with women because he doesn't want to get "emotionally twisted up over an untrustworthy whore with mental problems" might want to brush up on his definition of misogyny though. Just a thought.

1. Some women have mental problems.
2. Some women are untrustworthy.
3. Some women are whores.

Women with all three characteristics are a very small percentage of the female population, but they tend to dominate the singles scene because no one wants to be with them. Having a negative reaction to such women doesn't mean you harbor hatred toward all women. FYI, the confession that she had been an anorexic counted as a "mental problem". It wasn't a plus.

What's to attack? It's not like he's pretending to be nice. That didn't get him what he wanted, so instead of holding a grudge, he moved on, decided meaningful relationships didn't have to include friendship or respect, and let his inner bad boy out.

No. I was authentically nice -- and not a doormat -- before. I am not nice now. It is not because I was always secretly a selfish cad; nor am I a selfish cad now.

I never implied that meaningful relationships exclude friendship or respect. I quite clearly stated that I don't bother trying to forge meaningful relationships because I meet too many short-sighted or emotionally wrecked women. In other words, I don't encounter many women worth being nice to. Now, perhaps I should go to church and try to meet altruistic virgins. Fair enough. But saying that is different than garbling up what I said and knocking down a strawman.

I'd say he's just confirming that bad boys can, indeed, get laid, and giving all the guys who want the brand of fulfillment he's enjoying an unvarnished look at what you have to give up to get it, no?

Great message. Let mean women treat you like shit. And never have sex. Because if you do have sex relatively often, it means you're a terrible person.

1:54 AM, December 15, 2007  
Blogger Adrian said...

He's apparently living his dream, not "looking to unleash his cynicism and resentment" on any hapless woman looking for more, á la Craigslist's Recovering Nice Guy.

Good lord! Did you read the article? He is exactly, I mean down to the last detail, what was depicted in it. He was a nice guy, found out real fast that nice guys finish last, and now he just gratifies himself and doesn't try anymore -- just like the nice guy in Craig's List. Show me a single difference between Mortimer and the nice guy of Craig's List. All of these apply to Mortimer:

"What happened to all the nice guys?... The answer is simple: you did."

"Fact is, now, he's probably getting laid, and in a way, your ultimate rejection of him is to thank for that."

"You didn't want a nice guy then, and he certainly doesn't fucking want you, now."

And, finally, he is unleashing at least his cynicism -- that is exactly what he is: cynical. If he weren't, he'd still be a nice guy looking for love. Instead, he's reformed his ways and treats the women in his life appropriately, now, from the sounds of it. Saying that the single women out there are all messed up, etc. may well be true, but it certainly is cynical, and that is precisely his belief. Resentment? Perhaps that was what made him cynical in the beginning. Only he knows. In any case, no one holds a grudge forever -- and the Craig's List said "If you're lucky," -- he didn't make any guarantees.

2:12 AM, December 15, 2007  
Blogger ar said...

A lot of 'the nice guys' don't get away. A lot of them marry women who want a nice guy.... which makes you wonder why he doesn't take his own advice and focus on women who suit him better... even if they're not perfect cheerleader, size 0.

He seems to suffer from the same problems as the women he's writing about. Wanting women who either don't want him or aren't good for him... and whining about it.

That he doesn't see the obvious, that in his mind it is someone else's fault he is as he has chosen to become, is an amazing lack of perception. Certainly there are women exactly as he describe but perhaps his 'sense of self' has caused him to overrate his past niceness. Maybe he wasn't all that attractive to the 'nice gals'.. just saying.

8:13 AM, December 15, 2007  
Blogger Yamantaka said...

Interesting comments.

I've had a fair number of girlfriends in the US, but I've been rejected by quite a number of women for being "too nice."

And when I moved down to Brazil for a few years, I never EVER got rejected for being "too nice."

Odd how that worked.

It makes the glib bromides of "you can't get laid cuz you're a spineless looozer!" bromides look rather hollow.

9:22 AM, December 15, 2007  
Blogger Michael Lee said...

I'm a former nice guy, but I didn't have to turn into a bastard to recover from it. I had to realize three things:

(1) most women are not attracted to most men. This is a hard thing for men to get, because most men are instantly, involuntarily and superficially attracted to most women. But women have checklists, slower arousal systems, whatever you want to blame it on. Typically, women are not constantly alerting and in target acquisition mode like men are. So don't take it personally that most women look through you.

(2) when a woman is attracted to you, it's obvious--if you're not blinded by self-consciousness. Never try to get a woman interested in you--instead, just notice which ones are.

(3) if your ultimate goal is to get her into bed, your likelihood of success drops logarithmically with every day that goes by that you haven't. If you've known a woman a month and haven't bedded her, give up on that goal. Tell her you want to be "just friends" and mean it, or stop hanging around her.

If you follow these rules, you can be as nice as you want to women.

11:34 AM, December 15, 2007  
Blogger Adrian said...

No, Michael, women are attracted to men the way men are attracted women. If it wasn't for that, more women would be living sexless, childless lives. The difference is just in what that means. For men, it is a lot more directly linked to wanting to have sex with them than it is for women. That is why the women with the "nice guy" friend is using him every bit as much as the man with the sex-buddy girlfriend is using her. It may seem like she isn't because they are "just friends" and she isn't using him for sex which as "we all know" is a cardinal sin. But, in fact, she is using him every bit as much -- probably even more. It's just passive aggressive -- lawyerly taking advantage of social norms to maintain social propriety. And, that is all that has gone here in the comments -- a lot of people recognizing how socially acceptable it all is and screeching about it.

But, in fact, because of the asymmetry in social acceptance of these typical male and female behaviors, the men are at an advantage in that it is very difficult for them to take advantage of a decent woman while it is quite easy for women to do so to a nice guy. And so, that is why the nice guy in Craig's List usually is a nice guy or at least a fairly normal guy, while the recovering anorexic of Mortimer's date is usually a crazy, neurotic, bad girl whom if he treated any different would royally abuse him.

And, I will also say one other thing, I am not a nice guy, myself. I have never really dated women using such tactics. (In fact, I have even chewed at least one girl out for trying to "nice guy" me and, generally, will not accept even being the boyfriend in the scenario in Craig's List who tolerates her having a "nice guy" on the side.) I do think it is a low percentage play, and I do think that a man is ill-advised to be a "nice guy". That's why I completely agree with the Craig's List article. And so, that is also why

"when a woman is attracted to you, it's obvious--if you're not blinded by self-consciousness. Never try to get a woman interested in you--instead, just notice which ones are."

may be great advice for women, but that is precisely the advice that leads to men becoming the "nice guy". At any rate, it isn't good dating advice at all for men, in my opinion. Men have to chase women, even -- perhaps especially -- in this modern world of liberated women. If you don't actively pursue women, you really won't get a date and women will be coy, ambiguous, and so on to prolong the chase, and they will even turn you down and do a lot of silly things even if they do really like you and/or you are their most eligible suitor. Most people never mature beyond high school and that's exactly how they act.

So, what you really have to do is be able to be sufficiently up front and possibly even a little socially hen pecked about your desire to have sex with a particular woman and doggedly pursue it in a non-threatening way even if she gives out a lot of mixed signals. If she really acts right all along the way for long enough, then it will quite naturally grow into a meaningful relationship in most cases. Of course, it takes a lot more, even, to maintain that relationship, but that gets you started. If you want a really superlative relationship with someone, then it takes near perfection in how you treat each other. As I say, there is no negotiating that. It has to be. And, that is why the nice guy in Craig's List is not only not some kind of a loser asshole spurning good women, but actually showing a lot of character, relatively speaking, for recognizing what it really takes to have a great relationship. Unfortunately, he does not recognize that it must absolutely be reciprocated and that no matter how willing he is to "not let that bother him", it will nevertheless undermine any future relationship he has with that girl. (So, he is not perfect, by any means, but he is a lot closer to it than anyone else in the scenario, including the spurned "nice girl" add-on to the article from these comments.)

12:34 PM, December 15, 2007  
Blogger JM Hanes said...

Adrian:

Is your irony meter busted or what?

The real reason there are fewer and fewer available nice guys the older you get is because other women have already married them -- and stayed married to 'em too. That's why I suggested that genuine nice guys take heart.

Mortimer:

I'm not surprised that you seem to encounter a lot of "emotionally wrecked" women. Healthy women may be attracted to bad boys, but their survival intincts kick in pretty fast. Women who consisently choose them over men who treat them well usually have self-destructive problems of their own. For those whose irony meters remain intact, though, it sounds like your main complaint is how few nice girls there are to choose from.

Michael Lee:

That sounds about right to me. What you do can make a difference in whether a woman likes you or not, or likes you enough to sleep with you, but it won't basically change whether or not she's sexually attracted to you.

In long term relationships, the liking part (on both sides) will be important. Unfortunately for the impatient, that part flat out takes some time and effort before you find out whether things are going to work out or not. Short term liasons, not so much. It seems pretty clear that's what the No-More-Mr.-Nice-Guy folks are opting for. What fascinates me is how many of them apparently need the pretense that they only took the gloves off because of how they were treated by women, when it was pretty obviously a function of their own priorities.

2:48 PM, December 15, 2007  
Blogger JM Hanes said...

Adrian:

"No, Michael, women are attracted to men the way men are attracted women. If it wasn't for that, more women would be living sexless, childless lives."

Oddly enough, increasing numbers of women are opting for the single life.

"If you want a really superlative relationship with someone, then it takes near perfection in how you treat each other."

No, it doesn't. It mostly takes good faith and trust -- both of which are in short supply when you start out on a bad boy/bad girl basis.

3:02 PM, December 15, 2007  
Blogger Francis W. Porretto said...

The Nice Guy? He's not dead. He's not even in a coma. He's just doing what he now knows he ought to have been doing all along: acting like a man.

Nice-Guyism is a circumlocution for the mental syndrome that impels a single man to try to "relate" to single women as other women do. The sufferer has been told that that's what women want, and that offering it to the woman he desires will get him what he wants. Well, it is what women want -- from other women. But it's not what they want from men, and no amount of propaganda to the opposite effect can change that.

The proof is by contradiction. Imagine that single women preferred men who "relate" to them just as their women friends do. Given that male companionship comes at a higher cost to a woman than female companionship -- it tends to discourage the formation and deepening of female friendships, involves significant compromises about leisure time activities, and exposes both parties to speculative and salacious gossip -- this would automatically lead to it being dispreferred.

We do see single women cultivating single male friends with no romantic intentions. But these are freak cases. Quite often, the man is homosexual. In many other instances, the man is a "vestigial Nice Guy:" that is, he's lying to her, whether explicitly or by omission, about his lack of romantic / sexual interest, and hoping that proximity will allow him to get involved with her in a more intimate way. Such relationships were more common thirty years ago than they are today, because men have learned through experience that neither romance, nor sex, nor genuine respect from the woman is likely to result from them.

Traditional manly behavior toward women comes in three varieties:
-- Courtly: i.e., with an eye toward romance.
-- Gallant: i.e., arising from men's evolutionarily determined role as protectors of women.
-- Indifferent.

In all candor, male-female sincerely non-romantic friendships, pursued as such by the man, have always been very rare. Men very seldom view women as friends. The two sexes are much too different to enjoy one another's company for protracted periods without an intimate, sexually flavored bond, and healthy, sensible men understand this. Women who seek out men as friends are usually deluding themselves about the symmetry of the thing; in most other cases, they have ulterior motives about the relationship that they'd be reluctant to admit even to themselves.

Given that the Nice Guy, as defined above, seldom "scores," his virtual disappearance from the American milieu is pretty much a matter of natural selection.

3:14 PM, December 15, 2007  
Blogger Adrian said...

Is your irony meter busted or what?

What is the irony that you speak of -- the fact that I am not a nice guy? The fact that I advise nice guys to not be so nice? These are all things that are consistent with the Craig's List article. Or perhaps, you imagine that because I am not a nice guy, that is why I have encountered the women I do in life or some such thing. Or, is it because you think the advice to the nice guy isn't consistent with the view that the nice guy is, indeed, a nice guy?

The real reason there are fewer and fewer available nice guys the older you get is because other women have already married them -- and stayed married to 'em too. That's why I suggested that genuine nice guys take heart.

No -- the nice guys wise up and become not so nice. Or, they become weenies that only think they are nice when, in fact, they are just better at the passive aggressive games that women play than the woman they married. But, it is true that in some rare case, they just continue to be abused and have eventually convinced themselves that its GREAT! (Since after all, they did eventually get married -- those are usually the ones that are just happy to finally be getting laid.)

Oddly enough, increasing numbers of women are opting for the single life.

Not really. They are not opting for the celibate life -- they just aren't getting married. They still have boyfriends and so on.

"If you want a really superlative relationship with someone, then it takes near perfection in how you treat each other."

No, it doesn't. It mostly takes good faith and trust -- both of which are in short supply when you start out on a bad boy/bad girl basis.


What you're talking about is not a superlative relationship, but just a normal one. They end in divorce half the time and endure other serious problems most of the rest of the time. A normal relationship isn't bad from start to finish. It starts out pretty good -- otherwise people would never even consider it at all. But, eventually, someone has a rough time in life or just gets more and more selfish over time and starts taking their spouse for granted. And, in any case, they pull some serious crap that their spouse either tolerates or gets divorced over or pulls their own crap in response to. And, it keeps going on like that, ad infinitum, or someone eventually gets divorced or sometimes they finally reconcile after years of a lot of serious crap. It is extremely unlikely to find a happy healthy marriage that just lasts a lifetime. Do the math -- we're probably talking in the single digits percentage-wise of marriages that actually really worked out over time. In fact, right this very moment if you just look across society, the number of marriages that are seriously ill or that have already ended in divorce strongly outnumber the ones that are doing pretty good.

5:07 PM, December 15, 2007  
Blogger Mortimer Brezny said...

Not only do I agree with Adrian, I think JM Hanes needs to grow a pair of testicles.

For those whose irony meters remain intact, though, it sounds like your main complaint is how few nice girls there are to choose from.

They need not be nice. I'm perfectly fine having sex with ones who aren't. But there's no point in trying to have a meaningful relationship with a nutcase who seeks to abuse and destroy you. I'm not a bad boy, by the way. I don't abuse women. I just refuse to be used or treated like crap. It's called manhood.

Get some self-respect. Being pussy whipped is not fun. You need to face that hard, cold reality.

6:47 PM, December 15, 2007  
Blogger br549 said...

Truth be known, we all have baggage. God knows I have my own.

Some folks do get lucky. And I'm happy for 'em. They are able to leave most of their baggage at the door. They come together, for and of each other, and form a new space just for themselves. They just keep re-painting the nose, and putting on new wings.

What I like about not being married, is if any crap starts to flow the hands go up, the head turns, I spin on my heel and head for the door. Life's too short. That's one of my newest bags.

7:17 PM, December 15, 2007  
Blogger ACCTuary said...

To those who 'gave up being a nice guy', how would you describe your behavior today? Did you become a total cad who treats women like s__t? Probably not. So, how precisely did you change?

7:43 PM, December 15, 2007  
Blogger JM Hanes said...

Adrian:

"What is the irony that you speak of -- the fact that I am not a nice guy?"

No, the irony I directed at Mortimer.

" The fact that I advise nice guys to not be so nice?"

Most folks seem to be making comments, not asking for help, but if they were, let's say they're choosing between your advice and the advice you rejected from Michael. He sounds pretty happy; you sound really bent out of shape. What to do?

"What you're talking about is not a superlative relationship, but just a normal one. "

Architects are fond of saying that perfect is the enemy of good. In my experience, the surest path to disappointment is to measure people and relationships against a fixed, picture perfect ideal in your head -- especially one that you apparently already believe is well nigh impossible to attain. I'd be surprised if two people anywhere shared precisely the same vision of "superlative," and whole lot more folks would be sh*t out of luck, if they did.

Best not to obsess over how you think things ought to be, but accept the one you're with just as she is, hope that she returns the favor, and go from there. You might be surprised at just how well -- and how differently from what you imagined or expected -- that can turn out. Your mileage may vary, of course, but I've got a lot of miles under my belt, so to speak.

1:06 AM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger JM Hanes said...

Mortimer:

"Not only do I agree with Adrian, I think JM Hanes needs to grow a pair of testicles."

LOL! Honey, I'm probably old enough to be your grandmother, and when I need balls, I know where to where to find 'em.

1:18 AM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger moondancer said...

The complaint of the poster is the typical whining of a misogynist loser. While women often make mistakes in their choices of men, they are almost always right to pass on passive aggressive a**holes like the poster.
Not that he'll ever admit to it, but I can profile this guy pretty well. Pear-shaped, unemployed, Rush Limbaugh loving needle-dick.
I don't know any well adjusted men that have trouble finding companionship. Taking the women that seek disastrous relationships out of the equation, there is still tons of women out there.
The poster would do well to move out of mom's basement, and grow up. Or seek happiness with a man.

3:27 AM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger zdk said...

I read through the Nice Guy rant, and I would like to quibble with his sign-off. He's not a recovering Nice Guy, he's still a Nice Guy! He's taken time out of his day to provide a comprehensive list of reasons women should never waste their time with him (or any guy like him).

I think that's very thoughtful. Women these days are busy too, after all, and it's great when a guy can help streamline the dating process.

Now, some of you might argue that his comments are cruel toward women. And yes, he does seem to believe that the only purpose of women is to function as life support for the pussy, and he does seem to think that his mere existence entitles him to access whatever pussy he fancies. But remember, thanks to his honesty you will be able to crushingly reject him in a fraction of the time it might take if you mistakenly went on a date with him!

7:50 AM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger Cham said...

Moondancer and zdk:

You 2 are absoluetely right. Whenever someone says to me "I am a nice guy" or "I am a nice person" then I know a I need to move on and away. I can't stand the word nice, it means 'pleasant and agreeable', and anyone who thinks that being agreeable at all costs is playing a very nasty passive aggressive game.

Nice people believe that their feelings, wants desires should be trumped by what other people's wants and desire. They hope that their lack of communication and honest discussion will result in friendship or romance. Most people see a nice person, or agreeable person, as an annoying person or a pushover who will never be honest.

There is only one instance where people need to be nice and that is during large corporate staff meetings. In this situation you should never embarrass others, especially your boss, with disagreement. You can handle that in private before or after the meeting.

8:51 AM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger Mortimer Brezny said...

But remember, thanks to his honesty you will be able to crushingly reject him in a fraction of the time it might take if you mistakenly went on a date with him!

Because nothing is ever the fault of any woman, and any man who dislikes any woman for any reason is an evil person.

9:46 AM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger Mortimer Brezny said...

I can profile this guy pretty well. Pear-shaped, unemployed, Rush Limbaugh loving needle-dick.

And what is this profile is totally false? You just accused the guy, for having gripes about some small subset of the female population, of being a small-dicked homosexual. You might want to look up the word "misandry".

9:48 AM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger Mortimer Brezny said...

Honey, I'm probably old enough to be your grandmother, and when I need balls, I know where to where to find 'em.

Oh, you're an old woman! That explains all the anti-male nonsense you've been spouting.

9:49 AM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger Mortimer Brezny said...

Best not to obsess over how you think things ought to be, but accept the

The irony is that's what the ex-nice guy is saying. Accept the reality that not all women are saintly and wonderful and pursue your own happiness.

9:54 AM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger zdk said...

"Because nothing is ever the fault of any woman, and any man who dislikes any woman for any reason is an evil person."
-Mortimer Brezny

Perhaps you have mistaken me for somebody else. I was talking about the individual who posted the rant that sparked this discussion. If you actually think that all men, or even most men, hold opinions identical to the self-professed "Recovering Nice Guy" then I'd say you're the man-hater around here.

It's really just a small minority of losers who are incapable of functioning as adults. I think you do men a disservice when you use the bad behavior of that small minority to smear all males.

9:56 AM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger Mortimer Brezny said...

It's really just a small minority of losers who are incapable of functioning as adults.

Yes, because any man who has any complaints about any woman is a loser. Because women are always right and always know best and no man has anything to complain about.

10:11 AM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger zdk said...

Most guys (like most girls) will at one point go through a phase in which the opposite sex is blamed for all relationship woes. And most guys (like most girls) grow out of it.

Personally, I don't see any compelling reason to date one of the few defectives who continue to blame an entire gender for their individual relationship problems. Life's too short, you know?

Obviously some folks are very emotional about this subject, but really I don't see the big deal. You don't have to date women if you don't want. If you find women so unappealing and annoying, then spend time with people you like instead! Your peers may pressure you or call you "fag" or whatever, but to hell with them. Just do what's right for you. Don't let anybody tell you who you have to date or who you have to be friends with.

10:19 AM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger Mortimer Brezny said...

If you find women so unappealing and annoying, then spend time with people you like instead! Your peers may pressure you or call you "fag" or whatever, but to hell with them. Just do what's right for you. Don't let anybody tell you who you have to date or who you have to be friends with.

Because any man who finds any woman unappealing for any reason must be a homosexual. No, you don't hate men at all!

10:24 AM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger zdk said...

Is this a game where you respond to the opposite of what I said?

My entire point was to ignore the people who might call you "fag" if you choose not to date women. My point was to not let yourself be bullied into dating women if you find the idea unappealing.

10:27 AM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger Mortimer Brezny said...

Most girls will at one point go through a phase in which the opposite sex is blamed for all relationship woes.

Imagine a male rape crisis counselor saying this to a recent female victim who is scared to go outside.

10:29 AM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger zdk said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

10:31 AM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger zdk said...

Perhaps I'm missing something, but are you saying that rape is a "relationship woe"?

Because, in all seriousness, if you think rape is a part of relationships then perhaps that's why you're not having as much luck as you might want with women.

10:32 AM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger Mortimer Brezny said...

My entire point was to ignore the people who might call you "fag" if you choose not to date women. My point was to not let yourself be bullied into dating women if you find the idea unappealing.

My entire point is I don't find women, as a category, unappealing. I find women like you unappealing, in part because you think "slyly" calling men homosexuals by "helping" them to ward off evil male bullies is sophisticated and clever. When, in reality, you're the only bully around for miles. You are exactly the kind of human being any well-adjusted adult -- gay or straight -- should do their best to avoid. On the dating scene, or anywhere in life generally.

10:32 AM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger Mortimer Brezny said...

if you think rape is a part of relationships then perhaps that's why you're not having as much luck as you might want with women.

I do just fine. I just don't date women like you. I think I'm better off for it. My point is you're a callous and hateful person who says outrageous and tone-deaf things.

10:34 AM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger zdk said...

Ah, it appears there has been miscommunication.

1) I was not trying to "slyly" call men homosexuals. For one thing, I don't see anything wrong with homosexuality, so I wouldn't use it as an insult in the first place. But, in addition, I was being sincere.

A lot of guys here seem to feel that they must pursue women that they don't find interesting. A lot of guys are talking about how boring or annoying a girl is, yet they feel compelled to put up with her. Why? If she's not fun to be around, stop being around her. For heaven's sake stop trying to sleep with women you think are mean, stupid, or lame, because you'll only encourage them to keep being mean, stupid, and lame.

2) While I'm flattered that you would think about romantic entanglements between the two of us, I'm not (biologically) your type. :D

3) I'm not interested in bullying anybody. Sure, I'll laugh at the few bitter guys who blame Womankind whenever they can't get their cocks sloppy, but who doesn't?

Look, it's pretty simple:

Don't pursue relationships with people who are jerks. Some jerks are women, and some jerks are men. Don't date them no matter what set of genitals they have.

Women are people, and most people are well-meaning, slightly clueless, and just doing their best to figure out how to unhook someone else's underwear without ruining the moment.

10:44 AM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger Mortimer Brezny said...

I don't see anything wrong with homosexuality, so I wouldn't use it as an insult in the first place.

Yes, and Americans treat women as equals, so we would never dress men up in women's clothing as a form of torture.

For heaven's sake stop trying to sleep with women you think are mean, stupid, or lame, because you'll only encourage them to keep being mean, stupid, and lame.

My whole point is that I don't try to sleep with women who are mean, stupid, or lame. I date women I think are interesting and if I discover that there is something wrong with them, I limit the interaction to the dates we have had or perhaps we have sex. I don't pursue a meaningful relationship, because that would be self-abuse. I have consistently made this point. Thank you for finally acknowledging that it makes sense.

While I'm flattered that you would think about romantic entanglements between the two of us, I'm not (biologically) your type.

Sorry. But I sincerely thought you sounded more embittered and feminine than JM Hanes, who is a bitter old woman.

Sure, I'll laugh at the few bitter guys who blame Womankind whenever they can't get their cocks sloppy, but who doesn't?

I'm not complaining about not getting my cock sloppy. I get laid. I was explaining why I'm no longer a nice guy who seeks only meaningful relationships.

Women are people, and most people are well-meaning, slightly clueless, and just doing their best to figure out how to unhook someone else's underwear without ruining the moment.

Yes, women are people. But the rest of your statement doesn't logically follow. Blind people are people and most people can see, but that doesn't mean most blind people can see. I'm not casting aspersions on women, just pointing out the obvious flaws in what you say.

11:06 AM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger Adrian said...

Yeah, it is pretty simple and it's true -- the nice guy shouldn't be nice. That means he should go forth and do everything he talks about in his article. Unfortunately, that doesn't lead to happy, monogamous, life-long, committed relationships. But, he should, indeed, "get over it" and accept the fact that the vast majority of marriages, for instance, either end in divorce or suffer pretty serious hardships due to the selfish behavior of the people involved. That is what normal relationships lead to if you take them all the way to their conclusion. That's normal.

It is also true that he was mistreated and abused for trying to do something different. The behavior of the girl in the scenario is typical and normal, not at all abnormal or even ill-adjusted given the social context we are all in. It is just her way to have multiple male suitors which does indeed benefit her for all sorts of reasons. If she was "doing the right thing" she would recognize that he is interested in her, that she is not really interested in him and just not ask him to hang out with her and refuse his advances. She should do that because "the way the game works" is that men pursue women and women reciprocate if they are interested. She reciprocated on all the platonic stuff but wouldn't let it lead to anything because she is not interested but likes the attention of a guy pursuing her. That's just a more elaborate version of a girl going out on a date with a guy she has no romantic intentions with just because she wants someone to take her out to dinner.

The nice guy should recognize that women do this kind of stuff to men all the time and that it is extraordinarily unlikely that he will find one that acts right as evidenced by the fate of most normal relationships. He should not "get over himself" and forget about the girl in the scenario because then he'll just be a nice guy again and continue to be abused. He should always remember it with a little bit of irritation -- just enough to never be a "nice guy" again. And so, in particular, while all of you are right about him needing to "man up" and move on, you are wrong in essentially attributing the girl's bad behavior to some perceived character flaws in the nice guy (which is, indeed, what you guys are doing even though you will certainly deny it).

11:29 AM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger zdk said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

11:30 AM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger zdk said...

Yes, and Americans treat women as equals, so we would never dress men up in women's clothing as a form of torture.
I don't understand what your point is, here.

Yes, some people do awful things. I know a lot of people do think homosexuality is bad or shameful, and that's probably why they try to insult others by calling them "fag" and whatnot. I don't share those values or beliefs.

My whole point is that I don't try to sleep with women who are mean, stupid, or lame.
Well, good! That should help you chill out about this subject a lot, because you obviously know that you don't have to spend time with rotten people.

Sorry. But I sincerely thought you sounded more embittered and feminine than JM Hanes, who is a bitter old woman.
I guess it's all about our individual perspectives. She sounds like a kick-ass granny type, which I find entertaining. She certainly doesn't come across as bitter, to me, but rather as experienced and realistic. Life isn't always a perfect fairy tale, and sometimes when talking about the realities can sound depressing or bitter, but it really isn't. Imperfection doesn't have to ruin life!

I'm not complaining about not getting my cock sloppy. I get laid. I was explaining why I'm no longer a nice guy who seeks only meaningful relationships.From the sound of it, you were never that type in the first place, if you were just faking it and pretending interests you didn't feel in the hopes that women would give you what you really wanted.

Genuine niceness is just that: genuine. It's not an act you put on to try to get people to like you (or to fuck you). If you actually are interested in being with somebody then you won't have to fake it and it won't feel like an effort at all. It just comes naturally.

If you aren't/weren't genuinely interested in being in a serious relationship, then it wasn't nice of you to fake it. If you weren't experiencing genuine feelings and a desire to be nice simply because you liked her, then it wasn't nice of you to pretend and deceive her.

It's much nicer of you to be honest about your intentions, the way you say you are now!

Yes, women are people. But the rest of your statement doesn't logically follow. Blind people are people and most people can see, but that doesn't mean most blind people can see. I'm not casting aspersions on women, just pointing out the obvious flaws in what you say.
The only way your particular criticism would apply would be if women were innately unable to be well-meaning, slightly clueless, and interested in removing somebody's underwear (the way that a blind person is unable to see, by definition).

Do you actually believe that women are, by definition, unable to be well-meaning, slightly clueless, and interested in removing undergarments? In my experience, the overwhelming majority of women are well-meaning, the overwhelming majority of women (like men) have their moments of cluelessness, and certainly seem to enjoy removing undergarments when the mood is right.

11:30 AM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger zdk said...

(I accidentally clicked the "publish" button twice, so I deleted one of the posts. Whoops!)

11:32 AM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger Adrian said...

A point of clarification: by "all of you", I don't mean everyone posting but just the people on one side of this dispute.

11:36 AM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger Adrian said...

Genuine niceness is just that: genuine. It's not an act you put on to try to get people to like you (or to fuck you). If you actually are interested in being with somebody then you won't have to fake it and it won't feel like an effort at all. It just comes naturally.

If you aren't/weren't genuinely interested in being in a serious relationship, then it wasn't nice of you to fake it. If you weren't experiencing genuine feelings and a desire to be nice simply because you liked her, then it wasn't nice of you to pretend and deceive her.


No -- genuine niceness is doing things for people that you would otherwise not do. If you would do it anyway, then that is just you doing what you want. The nice guy wants to spend time with her but certainly doesn't want to go to the mall. He doesn't because he is being nice to her and doing what she wants to do under the false belief that she likes him too and isn't just using him and will reciprocate later on and do what he wants to do. And, what she does is she reciprocates a little -- enough to keep him believing his false beliefs about the true nature of their relationship -- but she never really returns his generosity in the long run.

11:50 AM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger Mortimer Brezny said...

From the sound of it, you were never that type in the first place, if you were just faking it and pretending interests you didn't feel in the hopes that women would give you what you really wanted.

No. You're just a biased person of bad faith who is intent on deliberately misinterpreting whatever I write here, which is my point. I was genuinely nice then. I'm not now, because I'd rather avoid the discomfort and displeasure it tends to cause. And because I'd rather be a man who has self-respect instead of the pitiful kind of creature that you insist on being.

The only way your particular criticism would apply would be if women were innately unable to be well-meaning, slightly clueless, and interested in removing somebody's underwear

No, that isn't right. My criticism applies because your statement was illogical. Your latest reconstruction doesn't make it logical. If you hope to make an empirical claim about what percentage of the female population exhibits Behavior XYZ, fine, but the original statement you made is still illogical. I haven't made any empirical claims about women here other than that a large percentage the women in the singles dating scene are unacceptable for meaningful, long-term relationships or deep friendships. But they are just fine for social outings or casual sex. That has nothing to do with the innate characteristics of women. Unlike you, I'm not an essentialist shitbag who thinks implying someone is a "fag" (your term, not mine) is the hieght of wit.

Life isn't always a perfect fairy tale, and sometimes when talking about the realities can sound depressing or bitter, but it really isn't. Imperfection doesn't have to ruin life!

Again, no one here arguing my side of things is saying imperfection ruins life or that our lives are bad. We just don't think men like you are particularly masculine or take kindly to sycophantic, self-loathing, illogical creatures such as yourself implying we are "needle-dicked" "fags". For the record, I don't listen to Rush Limbaugh.

12:21 PM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger Mortimer Brezny said...

The nice guy should recognize that women do this kind of stuff to men all the time and that it is extraordinarily unlikely that he will find one that acts right as evidenced by the fate of most normal relationships. He should not "get over himself" and forget about the girl in the scenario because then he'll just be a nice guy again and continue to be abused. He should always remember it with a little bit of irritation -- just enough to never be a "nice guy" again. And so, in particular, while all of you are right about him needing to "man up" and move on, you are wrong in essentially attributing the girl's bad behavior to some perceived character flaws in the nice guy (which is, indeed, what you guys are doing even though you will certainly deny it).

Exactly.

12:28 PM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger Darren said...

I was going to write some rant about how that CL post is full of shit, but instead I'll just leave a link to someone who has already pretty much captured my response, and said it a lot better than I could:

http://mightygodking.com/index.php/2007/12/16/the-internet-nice-guy-rears-his-ugly-head-once-more/

3:58 PM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger Ismone said...

Why I think the craigslist niceguy is wrong.

First story. I fell in love with a guy friend. We had great conversations, and there was a physical spark. I ramped up the flirting, and finally asked him out. He turned me down. I was bummed, but kept hanging out with him. Finally, I told him that I was having a really hard time being around him, because I kept hoping he would change his mind, and that we shouldn't hang out any more. He got upset with me, and said "so this is just it?" Basically, he was calling me out on being a bad friend. And he talked me out of dumping him as a friend. And he was right.

And even if he wasn't right, and I was just a chump, I wouldn't DREAM of blaming his bad behavior on men. (And to be clear, he wasn't behaving badly.) His actions were his own.

Second story. At the same time I was friends with guy number one, I had another friend who had the nice guy routine down to a tee. What bothered me about him was that he idolized me, which made me very uncomfortable. Sometimes when I would have bad days, and be grumpy, and go off about something, he would later apologize for being a jerk. "C," I would tell him, "you're not being a jerk, I'm being a jerk. Not everything is your fault." He did ask me out. I turned him down. I made it clear that my answer wasn't going to change. He listened to me talk about other guys, I listened to him talk about other girls, once it became clear that we weren't going to date. This guy was my friend--but some of the posters on this board seem to think that I should have just dumped him as soon as he displayed interest. When he said he could handle being friends, was I supposed to stop being friends? The subtext there being "I am so the hawt that you can't resist me and be friends even if you say you can?" I'm happy with my looks, but I don't think I'm that pretty. Fast-forward two years later, we've both dated other people, I've had a bad breakup and am talking to him about what a stealth-jerk the guy was (he seemed very sweet and emotionally genuine, but actually had a girlfriend); and my friend has the NERVE to tell me that I should have dated him, that he never would have cheated on me. WTF? It wasn't about him. When he'd tell me about his breakups or romances, I wouldn't say "too bad you never won me over."

So having been on both sides of the equation, the lesson I learned was that sometimes you will fall in love with your friends, and they will fall in love with you. You can't control their behavior. You can encourage good behavior or call them on their b.s. But at the end of the day, if you are being treated badly, you've gotta walk. And blame the person who treated you badly, not the entire gender they belong to.

Some of the men on this forum seem very ready to believe that women like to date jerks. Only one of my girlfriends has ever stayed with a guy after he displayed jerk attributes, and she has real issues. (She was molested as a child and sexually assaulted as an adult, as mentioned by the divorced guy upthread.) Yes, if a person treats you bad, it is there fault. But that doesn't mean that you shouldn't walk away if you are treated badly, and in between relationships, give some serious thought to whether you are letting your needs be trampled on, or not noticing warning signs. Friends can be a lot of help for this.

But I still don't like the passive-aggression displayed by the craigslist poster. If you aren't happy with the relationship, walk. If you're really her friend, she doesn't owe you "physical reciprocation." Just like my guy friend didn't owe me his romantic feelings just by virtue of being close to me and stirring up romantic feelings in me.

4:04 PM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger Mortimer Brezny said...

And blame the person who treated you badly, not the entire gender they belong to.

Your "being on both sides" anecdote is wonderful (you get a gold star!!!), but no one here is blaming an entire gender for anything, and your experiences don't outweigh other people's experiences.

4:10 PM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger Ismone said...

Craigslist boy is saying nice guys don't exist because he was a nice guy and a woman effed him over, therefore all nice guys have been effed over by the very women who claim to be seeking them, and are no longer nice guys.

My point about both sides is: 1) this happens to women too, so we get it, this isn't some "boys against girls" bs, it is a common social dynamic, which means women are not the enemy, jerks are (whether they are emotional users, or passive-aggressive jerks who expect sex in return for merely being nice), 2) being on both sides made it easier for me to understand the dynamic.

4:16 PM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger Mortimer Brezny said...

1) this happens to women too, so we get it

But it didn't happen to the woman to whom the CL nice guy was adressing the letter. Which is why he wrote the letter.

And I sincerely doubt it happens to women as commonly. It is not a universal and evenly distributed experience. You're just trying to delegitimate his experiences and undermine/pathologize his masculinity. Far easier for women to get what they want out of men than the reverse. That's not boys v. girls, that's just the way things work. (I'll hold up the mirror if you need help finding your vagina!)

2) being on both sides made it easier for me to understand the dynamic.

Or...you could have just read CL nice guy's letter...

4:23 PM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger Ismone said...

No, I'm saying his reaction to the bad thing that happened is the problem, I don't think masculinity (including his, in particular) is pathological. Since I compared my experience as a woman to his, clearly, I don't think it is some "other" male reaction.

It is possible that she was really a jerk to him. But since he is claiming that the very women who say they want "nice guys" were every bit as evil as the woman who done him wrong, I am inclined to think he is a jerk. He is also saying that he will now be a jerk because women like jerks.

I think THAT reaction is pathological. The blaming all women for the bad conduct of one woman. The rejection of good behavior because it doesn't get him what he wants.

Also, if there is this large subset of bad women, he should focus on what he can control, that is, recognizing and avoiding them. And he should also realize that sometimes, through no fault of our own, we get taken in by jerks and get hurt.

Women go through unrequited love a great deal. Being a woman, who other women confide in, I hear about it a lot. Also, since I'm a young'un who grew up on the left coast, a lot of my friend ask out men.

PS--It wouldn't shock me if someone like my C wrote a letter like that. The memory is selective when we choose to be self-pitying instead of self-critical. Is it hard to be self-critical? Sure. Do I make excuses for myself? You bet. And I want to be called on them.

4:38 PM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger JM Hanes said...

"Oh, you're an old woman! That explains all the anti-male nonsense you've been spouting."

You could call me old, or you could call me a survivor, or both, or, as you've amply demonstrated, pretty much anything you like. I think men are great and I'm perfectly happy to acknowledge that women screw up relationships too. The people who actually recover from painful experiences of almost any kind, from hurtful partners to debilitating accidents, are the ones who refuse to see themselves as victims -- even if they have, in fact, been victimized. The folks who accept, or embrace, victim status are the ones who end up feeling helpless, angry and bitter.

Now both you and Adrian have apparently made changes in how you relate to women which you are recommending to others, but why would they take that advice when he's full of gloom and doom about the very possibility of satisfactory partnerships, and you're saying you can have all the sex you want if you give up even trying to have a meaningful relationship? It may be less painful on a day to day basis, but is it really better in the long run? You really have no way of knowing -- yet -- do you?

6:12 PM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger JM Hanes said...

zdk:

"She sounds like a kick-ass granny type, which I find entertaining."

How nice of you to say so! :)

6:32 PM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger Adrian said...

No -- the nice guy scenario is predominately a female dating tactic. Of course, it can go both ways but it absolutely is not as common for men to do something along the lines of the girl in the Craig's List story or to even be able to do it as it is for girls to do. Plus, the situation you are describing isn't the situation in the Craig's List story -- or at least it really doesn't sound like it. You're case is just a case of unrequited love that you expressed to your friend that he did not return. The Craig's List scenario is a case of a guy whom everyone recognizes as liking the girl and it is not (necessarily) a case of unrequited love where he is just full of all these emotions or something. It is simply a case where he meets some girl, he likes her, he spends time with her and does a lot of nice things for her to the point that it becomes obvious to everyone that he likes her, and she just takes everything he gives her and doesn't reciprocate. In your story, you don't even have a whole lot of stuff you are doing for this friend of yours. It isn't well known by everyone around that you like him just by what you do for him. People aren't teasing him about it, trying to see if you're his secret girlfriend, figuring he must have some secret interest in you. And, above all, this general expectation that you are supposed to pursue him isn't there like it is for this nice guy on Craig's List. It's real easy for girls to sit back and give the same advice to guys that actually works for girls like "when a girl likes you it's real obvious," blah blah blah. A guy that goes by that really won't get any dates or only with women well below his social class.

And, the guy that was the "nice guy" to you wasn't nearly the same as the Craig's List guy. He made his advances and you turned him down and he moved right on along. In the Craig's List scenario, the guy makes his advances and the girl just plays along and keeps using him for all the attention she can get. Everyone else thinks something must be going on and it is kind of weird that she be carrying on with him like she is if nothing is going on. The nice guy in Craig's List hasn't moved on and started talking about other girls which if he did wouldn't be very nice -- it would just be normal. He was "there" for her, would do all these things for her and there was all this platonic physical contact (holding her while she cried on his shoulder). Frankly the way he describes this guy, I would think he is moving in on my girl if I was the "evil boyfriend". I certainly would tolerate no such thing if my wife had some "nice guy" hanging around. If that is the sort of thing that is going on then these rendezvous at her place with a movie and lots of cuddling is pretty damn clearly not "just friends". Maybe he is kind of a jerk for horning in on some other guy's girl, but the real responsibility for that lies with the girl, not the "nice guy". Outside of some angle like that, he is just being a good boyfriend to her and she is being a lousy girlfriend to him. If it was real obvious that the nice guy friend of yours was really your second boyfriend like that, then maybe your story is relevant. Otherwise, I think it clearly is something quite different than the Craig's List scenario.

8:56 PM, December 16, 2007  
Blogger br549 said...

I've never been to a site where it's mainly women only. I have no desire to do so. It's a female thing, to me. I have zipped in and seen what happens if a someone posts who is not of the same cloth.
It ain't pretty.

I don't go to democrat / liberal sites because I am not one, and just don't feel the need to go to them. The results are the same there, too. (The voting booth has curtains for a reason, he thinks to himself.)

I'm not a golfer, but Augusta has been a men's only course forever. Women have been trying to get into the it for a long time. Raising hell, so to speak to do so. It's about golf, I thought.

There are quite a few men's only type organizations of one or another that women have been trying to get into. Why is that? Why do they care? What are they on about? Is it "the mystery"? Once they get in, they'll find there isn't one. It's a place where men are. That's all. No mystery. Men with other men, smoking cigars, having a drink, shooting the breeze.

So, I go looking for a men's issues web site and don't really find one. But searching for something totally unrelated, I fell across this site.
A men's issues site, with Dr. Helen at the helm. Of course, I was skeptical at first, but I hung around to have a look - see.

I find there are a few women who come in here, mainly to rip into men. I read their points of view, there statements about what is wrong with men, and what is right with women, etc. And mainly, what is wrong with men in general, and what is right with them personally, as individuals. Why is that? What do they really want?

Men don't seem to have the desire to go to women's issues sites (that I am aware of - and correct me if I am wrong).

But girls want into the boys clubs. If they can't get in, they take it to court. Why? What is so all - fired important with men's only places that women have to force themselves into them?

6:50 AM, December 17, 2007  
Blogger br549 said...

I have read where a few people seem to think the legal system, the way it is set up, is all about chivalry, from days gone by.

No it ain't. Not any more. And not for quite some time.

7:01 AM, December 17, 2007  
Blogger Cham said...

Adrian:

This CL guy never made any romantic advances at all to this lady. He never asked this girl out on a date. Go to the mall for shopping is not a date. Hanging out with a woman is not a date. She had a boyfriend, that should have told him she was clearly off the market. He was acting in the capacity of a friend and that is the role in which she saw him. No woman is obligated to enter into a romantic relationship with a man just because he goes to the mall with her. CL Guy was trying to circumvent the dating process by doing the "hang out" with this lady and hoping that it would have romantic results.

9:12 AM, December 17, 2007  
Blogger Adrian said...

He would go back to her place alone and watch a movie and hold her while she cried. Everybody else seems to know something is going on. It is the premise of the article that it is obvious.

9:30 AM, December 17, 2007  
Blogger Cham said...

What everyone else thinks is unimportant. CL guy had the option not to hold this lady while she cried. When she started wimpering he could have excused himself and left. He stayed,that was his choice. No woman is obligated to enter into a romantic relationship just because a man held her while she cried. Ridiculous.

9:37 AM, December 17, 2007  
Blogger br549 said...

well, gee , cham. What everyone else thinks is unimportant. Except you?

11:15 AM, December 17, 2007  
Blogger Adrian said...

Stop acting like pass-aggressive behavior doesn't exist. The fact that everyone seems to know that their relationship isn't totally platonic shows that it isn't. You are trying to analyze specific events in or aspects of their relationship and conclude that each one is platonic to then go on to conclude that they are all taken together platonic. That is the fallacy of composition and it isn't just a technicality, in this case. It is clear that she is reciprocating in a specific controlled fashion to string him along by exploiting his attraction to her, his honorable intentions and the fact that men are expected to pursue women -- essentially by exploiting the fact that he is a "nice guy" and the social context in which they are associating with each other. She is doing it because, like people on both sides of this issue have said repeatedly, she gets a lot of real tangible benefits out of it.

11:30 AM, December 17, 2007  
Blogger Cham said...

The only way two people enter into a romantic relationship is when there is discussion about what is going on. This lady never said she wanted a romantic relationship with this man and he never asked for it. Yes, she got some benefit from the situation, but CL Guy gave her that benefit without asking for a romantic relationship which is what he wanted. Both men and women play passive aggressive games, both men and women use people. It is up to all of us adults to determine when we are being used and terminate those relationships. It is not up to one gender to act perfectly all the time in order to please the other gender.

11:40 AM, December 17, 2007  
Blogger Adrian said...

The only way two people enter into a romantic relationship is when there is discussion about what is going on. This lady never said she wanted a romantic relationship with this man and he never asked for it. Yes, she got some benefit from the situation, but CL Guy gave her that benefit without asking for a romantic relationship which is what he wanted. Both men and women play passive aggressive games, both men and women use people. It is up to all of us adults to determine when we are being used and terminate those relationships. It is not up to one gender to act perfectly all the time in order to please the other gender.

That's preposterous. I have been in a number of relationships where we just started having sex and didn't make some formal proclamation of our "relationship". In the CL article, they are doing a bunch of nonplatonic and romantic stuff with each other -- it is just done in a way that the girl can lawyer it and try to act like it is platonic when it (clearly and everyone knows it) is not. It is true that both men and women can be passive-aggressive, but this "nice guy" thing is a common female dating tactic perpetrated by the female to drum up as many male suitors as she can. It is up to the woman to act honorably and not string a guy along when she is not interested in pursuing the relationship because it is up to the guy to initiate the relationship in the first place. He was hustled by the girl, pure and simple. I suppose like anyone that gets scammed, he certainly had his own "selfish" motives for unwittingly going along with the scam in the first place since otherwise the scam wouldn't work. But, we don't blame the victim in such cases -- we recognize they were scammed. And, because women do this all the time to men, we can all expect men to become a lot more inured to it, which really just means selfish in their dealings with women. It's just like if you drive down to a crime ridden neighborhood you don't casually walk around chatting with just anyone on the street. You clutch your purse and try to avoid everyone for fear of being mugged. "But, what if the guy trying to talk to you is actually just a nice gregarious guy being friendly??" You know the answer to that, and the same applies to "an entire gender" under essentially the very same circumstances.

12:11 PM, December 17, 2007  
Blogger Cham said...

Adrian, not much in your above post makes sense to me.

12:22 PM, December 17, 2007  
Blogger Mortimer Brezny said...

Adrians's post made complete sense. Even if every guy you encounter on the crime-infested street is actually nice, you run because you've been mugged one too many times.

6:32 PM, December 17, 2007  
Blogger Mortimer Brezny said...

and you're saying you can have all the sex you want if you give up even trying to have a meaningful relationship?

When did I say this? I said I rarely meet women who are suitable for a meaningful relationship so I don't try for one with those women. If I meet a woman suitable for a meaningful relationship, great.

You people really just want to turn us all into jerks with character flaws, when all we're saying is, "There's a big barrel; avoid the rotten apples; if the only apples you pull out of the barrel are mostly rotten, cut out the still good parts, eat that, and pick out another apple."

Oh, and we're also noting that some of the rotten apples are rotten on purpose and are just traps for worms to get inside of you, gnaw through your digestive system, and make you sick.

6:40 PM, December 17, 2007  
Blogger Mortimer Brezny said...

The rejection of good behavior because it doesn't get him what he wants.

The point is: it's not good behavior. It's just allowing himself to be abused. And because you can't step outside of your female viewpoint to realize that male experience is not exactly the same as yours, you keep ignoring that male experience is not limited to what you think is "good" but also includes what he feels is "abuse". And you're pathologizing his aknowledgment of his own self-respect. Which is morally repugnant.

6:46 PM, December 17, 2007  
Blogger Austin said...

I can appreciate, at least in part, the thought behind the article. To touch on several points without any real concern for order regarding it:

- There is validity to the thought that some guys are 'nice' to mask underconfidence and fear of rejection, and they get treated like doormats. They deserve it. Grow a pair. (I would suggest the original post writer is probably in this category, though not definitely)

- There is validity to the thought that some guys are nice because they are actually nice people, and while confident, it's more important to them to try to help someone else than to avoid their own pain, and they get treated like doormats. They don't deserve it. They grow bitter.

Given this, it can be seen that if this phenomenon of mistreatment is common, then the supply of 'nice' and nice guys will be reduced. The problem is not the former vanishing (some might argue that is good), but the latter vanishing, which is definitely something that causes harm if you have an interest in genuine altruism in society. For those of us who believe in firm, enlightened self-interest, the lack of nice guys may also be a good thing, but that's not what this debate is about.

Likewise, being a jerk to get laid does, in fact, seem to work quite well.

I would similarly echo the sentiments that while allowing oneself to be victimized repeatedly might not be the best life strategy (becoming a non-nice guy seems a superior option given those two choices, which likewise accounts for the dearth of genuinely nice guys), that does not excuse the victimizer, either - if you use people, expect to live in a world of bitter people. Equally so, expressing disinterest for the 'nice but unattractive' girl is probably a more fair action than using them, but arguably less fair than conversing long enough to realize they are actually just a bitter, evil hag and then rejecting them for empirically sound reasons.

Now, before anyone accuses me of being on either side, I would submit that an accurate appraisal is that I'm now a bitter, elitist, misanthropic individual who wants virtually nothing to do with humanity. Accusing me of being on either side is probably a grave insult to that side, so I'd ask you avoid hurting their feelings. People, as a whole category, tend to make me unhappy to deal with on a personal level, so I don't - I'm out of the relationship game, I'm not sleeping with anyone, I have very few friends (only those that really matter, and I can count them on one hand and have spare fingers) and I've never been happier.

The bottom line is that people treat each other in selfish, inconsiderate ways on a regular basis, and deluding yourself about that leads to trouble in all corners, including relationships. Sad but true (which, coincidentally, is also a pretty good Metallica song).

8:46 PM, December 17, 2007  

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