Dating Toxins?
Following up on the nice guy post from yesterday, Dan Collins at Protein Wisdom emailed a column entitled: "Ask Sam Friday: Meeting Mrs. Right." When men were asked why they didn't date, this is what was said:
Wow, dating toxins, sounded interesting so I clicked through to the website mentioned to find out more:
Sounds plausible but the UK study seems to have overlooked an important aspect of what is going on in many western countries. Ambivalence --men are being told not to get married because of the bias in the courts there and are, with good reason, reluctant to get married. Somehow, I think this ambivalence plays as much a part in why men are not dating as "dating toxins."
"Too many princesses," was one explanation I overheard during a blokes beer session the other night at the pub. "They're all either gold diggers or married," proffered up another. "I'm just way too shy," piped a third. And perhaps he might be right.
Recent scientific research has discovered that the fruitless search for love has less to do with the supposed Sheila Shortage (a term created by KPMG demographer Bernard Salt) and more to do with our own foibles and short-comings.
According to the research of psychiatrist Dr Victoria Lukats, who polled 5000 daters for UK dating website PARSHIP and found that those who haven't been on a date in the last six months or had a relationship in more than a year, it's down to a simple theory: a build-up of Dating Toxins ...
Wow, dating toxins, sounded interesting so I clicked through to the website mentioned to find out more:
Dating toxins are the top 5 reasons that people give as to why they're single when what they're actually looking for is a serious long-term relationship. These include lack of self esteem, shyness, lack of opportunity, fussiness and desperation.
Sounds plausible but the UK study seems to have overlooked an important aspect of what is going on in many western countries. Ambivalence --men are being told not to get married because of the bias in the courts there and are, with good reason, reluctant to get married. Somehow, I think this ambivalence plays as much a part in why men are not dating as "dating toxins."
posted by Helen at 10:52 AM
125 Comments:
Some people are wildly unrealistic. I have a friend who got fleeced online thinking that a Siberian super model 15 years his junior had chosen him of all people in the Western Hemisphere to fall in love with. This guy is not stupid, far from it. But when a complete stranger asked him for money so that “she” could get a visa to visit him in the USA, he was blinded by a picture. Men are more easily governed by their vices than their virtues.
I'm not sure men are being taught not to get married. However, we may be teaching men that it is more acceptable than every before not to take on the role and responsibility of husband and father.The drive that was long the saving grace of the American male has been eroded and devalued in our culture while girls have taken up the gauntlet in their stead. In fact one might make the analogie the girls have ambition, boys have nintendo.
Dr. Reg Adkins,
Part of what is driving the lack of desire for marriage is 1) marriage is a risk for men in the way that it is not for women due to bias in the legal system --younger guys learn from the older ones that they might get the shaft and 2) encouraging girls to get ahead, go to college and succeed while boys are told they are scum who can't live up to what women want. Thus the turn to video games etc. who don't let them down and of course, they are also fun.
I don't know about about video games, but have any of you guys hugged your table saw today?
br549
Hug my table saw?? The thought makes me cringe!! I'm terrified of mine, which is probably why I have all my fingers and arms.
To dr. reg adkins
Go look up the laws on paternity fraud when the couple is married. Yours is just another response of the form: "Men only behave well (i.e., aren't cowardly slackers) when we do what women want us to do." Believe me, I've heard this BS before!
I don't know about this male reluctance to get married. Every guy I date seems to want to talk about my thoughts on marriage after a few weeks, to make sure that I am agreeable to the idea.
Well, individuals will vary, but it is actually a pretty demonstrable fact that fewer people are getting married, more children are being born out of wedlock, and so on.
Here's an old NY Times article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/15/us/15census.html?_r=2&pagewanted=2&bl&ei=5087%0A&en=77e64baf1961a2a3&ex=1161144000&oref=slogin
Back in the 30's 84% of households were made up of married couples (and/or their children). Now it is less than half of households. That's a pretty big paradigm shift over time. They seem to attribute a lot of it to living together before getting married, so that, in a way, it isn't a bad sign for the ultimate outcome of getting married. But, that is still a pretty big leap, and couples do now just live together indefinitely, and so on. Of course, the incidence of divorce is way higher than it used to be.
So, I'm inclined to think it is a lot more of a romantic idea than it is a practical reality that people are really willing to do what it takes to attain and maintain. It's not just some laws concerning divorce that stack the deck against family men. It is the total social package -- family law, prevailing social norms, social trends created by other laws in otherwise unrelated areas of life, and so on. It's just not worth it.
Part of what is driving the lack of desire for marriage is 1) marriage is a risk for men in the way that it is not for women due to bias in the legal system --younger guys learn from the older ones that they might get the shaft
If you stay married, the legal system will never bother your marraige, I've heard.
Men and women are marrying less/later because they know and have seen first hand these generations the ugliness of divorce. Babies born out of wedlock have no stigma, and many like to wait and save up until they can afford the big ceremony, I've heard.
I've said this before, but I suspect Helen bases most of her assumptions of today's American male -- of which she seems to claim expertise -- on the damaged goods, and losers in love she sees in her practice.
Still plenty of good men, and women, out here. Plenty happily married too, but again, you probably don't see much of that where you're at. Many men WANT marriage, love, security, and especially FAMILY life -- don't let her paint this picture on all men.
go to college and succeed while boys are told they are scum who can't live up to what women want. Thus the turn to video games etc. who don't let them down and of course, they are also fun.
Not to be impolite, but... do you realize how ugly and insulting this sounds to working-class men and those who are not "college material". What's wrong with that, if they can support their family and have a healthy and happy lifestyle? Many do, you know.
And that last line is a dead giveaway. Any man who isn't happy and instead of dealing with it escapes into his fantasy games (or whatever he does to escape) is not a man yet, but a boy.
Being a man means taking responsibility for your own actions, like the pushover described in the yesterday's post never seemed to do. Instead of walking away like a man, he whined and generalized about all women. "Nobody's nice anymore. Boo hoo, poor me."
Blaming others, blaming women for your own situation, seems pretty common nowadays in some circles. It's great that women like Helen want to step up and defend them, protect them from bias, and soothe them in their victimhood. Sadly, that just breeds more who have absolutely no idea how true manhood was defined by men long, long ago. (Hint: it ain't about retreating and spending quality time with your video console feeling sorry for yourself. Even if you have been legitimately hurt. Get up and get on. Life's to short to be a long-term victim.)
And yes. I'd say the same thing to someone moaning about racial limitations. (see Cosby)
And doesn't a healthy man miss the physical sex staying stuck inside playing his little games? No matter how fun they are...
At some point, you have an incentive to stop hating on the opposite sex because somebody broke your heart, and get out there casting again because there are a lot of fish in the sea.
Too long with no physical love in a healthy relationship (one night stands past the 20s don't count), and I'd suspect you should visit a doctor about your problems. Something is physically wrong there.
The real world will never know your true status, mary. I submit you are not, perhaps have never been married. I simply can't see any qualities in your statements and whole posts that would lead a man to want to be with you. You are condescending to everyone. I submit it is your own version of bitterness.
I see your whole veiled purpose for coming here as only to turn those who come here against Dr. Helen. I find that strange, since you don't even know her. No one does. That's not the point of the blog.
Like I asked the other day, open the comments on your own blog. Personally, I think that would be a blast. I read through parts of it once, and would love to comment on many of your "points of view". Put your picture up,too, so we can see what a true superior person looks like.
I know we're not supposed to feed the trolls, but no said anything about not feeding the pariah.
Mary,
What an insightful comment. If people stay married, divorce is not an issue for them. You know, I bet you are the first person here who was clever enough to come up with that. Thanks for setting us straight.
Damn.
Why do I get the feeling that you posted that without a hint of irony?
This is just one source that shows that women disproportionately seek divorce. Some studies put it at as high as 72% of all divorces in America are started by women.
Sounds to me like a lot of women want to bail out of marriage in America. We can assume that most of them are just decent women, bordering on princesses, who just so happened to have been shackled to a bridge troll in disguise, or we can be realistic and say that women are probably a bit, shall we say, fickle, when it comes to marriage in the last few generations.
Marriage in America is not until death or adultery do us part anymore. Quite frankly, what marriage is today is a lot of bull$h1t, as a general rule. No small part of the reason that at 24, I felt that I could safely get married, is the fact that my wife will unabashedly tell you that she is a Christian woman who believes all of the Bible's teachings on marriage and divorce. I know from her character that her faith is sincere, and that her faith really does inform her that she will answer to God if she just up and quits on me the way that many women do when things get tough.
I am firmly against dating toxins. It just ain't right.
Toxins should be dating other toxins.
Dr. Reg, men are indeed being taught not to marry. http://www.dont-marry.com/
Unless and until the inequities in family law are corrected, marriage for a man is like putting your head in a noose and hoping everything works out OK.
Mary is wrong. But also IMHO Dr. Helen.
What has happened is that situations socially have changed. Women in aggregate (individuals may vary) want greater socio-economic status in partners, will settle for equal status if other attributes (physicality, etc) compensate.
What has also happened is women's achievement in economic spheres has advanced while men's have declined. In the 1970's the average working man could buy a house. That's simply out of reach in most of the US, and Europe also.
Most men are simply priced out of the marriage and dating market. If you dropped a mere $100K in the yearly bank account of those lonely, "shy" men women would be all around and over them. Because the men would have higher RELATIVE status. Which would make them sexy instead of losers.
Please don't take this as woman-bashing. Women are just hard-wired, being female mammals, for men of higher or equal status to mate with. Men are similarly hardwired for body type, age attributes.
Individuals can and will vary, but heck the averages are well established.
Income stagnation, women's advancement, together in most of the Western World (along with Welfare states) explain this, along with 50% of British births being illegitimate.
I mean, guys who were their fathers all had dates and marriages and families. What we are likely looking at is defacto polygamy, with a few high-status males doing all the reproducing. Genetic bottleneck? Certainly inherited traits that will include aggressiveness and such. Since most of the men who will come after will inherit aggressiveness, the losers are likely to fight over women and the next generation will be quite ugly.
Dating is difficult. No question about it. If you're a man with little confidence dating is a lot like running a gauntlet. Fortunately, it doesn't have to be that way and men have it within their power to change dead end dating habits.
The old dictum that women don't want a nice guy is essentially true. From my extensive experience, women want an interesting guy who listens, carries himself with class and style, and is emotionally independent. It is fully within the power of a man to become all of those things.
Become interesting - Learn another language, go skydiving, run a marathon, take trips to exotic locales, anything other than retreating to the comfort of your video game console. I'm sorry but for a grown man to do that is just pathetic. Being active in a variety of settings expands a man's social circle. Quite often single women are in large social circles.
Appearance matters - Spend a few bucks on your clothes and appearance. Join a gym, especially if you lack confidence around women. You'll look better, you'll feel better, and you'll gain more confidence. It's a positive, self-reinforcing cycle. Women will start to notice you. I recommend a nice watch and polished shoes. Women also tend to notice those things. It's not shallow that women would gravitate towards well kept men. If a woman came in all dishevelled and looking like Courtney Love any man in his right mind would flee.
Proper posture and an audible voice are also important when considering one's appearance. Slouching, fidgeting, and mumbling do not make a good impression.
Be emotionally independent - Neediness (or the perception of neediness) is perhaps the most unattracive quality a man can possess. Be careful to avoid sending "needy" signals. Avoid any physical contact on a first date. It can be easily misinterpreted. Don't let the date drag on interminably and don't ask for a second date.
Oh, and pay at the end of the date. Some women might feebly protest, but more often than not it makes a positive impression.
Minor correction:
"Don't let the date drag on interminably and don't ask for a second date on the first date."
I, generally speaking agree with Dr. Helen. Her's is not the ONLY reason, but it is one of the primary reasons we see. As whiskey said, there's also the social and economic factors at play.
Let's face it, there's also blame & shame at play here! All of our media now specialize in blaming and shaming males. That effects how males behave in dating & marriage.
There's also as we see in some people's comments here a strong sense of blaming all males: The male is at fault! PERIOD! That too effects how our males behave.
Put it all together and we have an unstable situation which could crash at any minute.
The key is in the first sentence. Too many princesses. Well if men would ignore the pretty girls that are groomed from birth to be princesses, perhaps they would be happier. But they don't. (and yes, it is the same for women who chase the good looking men).
And I also have to take exception with Dr. Helen's statement that marriage is more of a risk for a man. It's a risk for both parties. For each story about a man being taken for a ride by his ex, there are 10 women who's husband has left them, doesn't support her or their kids and they are poverty sticken. That's not only a risk to the women, but the children. And a much worse problem in our society today.
I'm glad these men aren't getting married and screwing up their life, a woman's life and potential children's lives.
jw: Many of helen's commenters and helen put the blame for many things squarely on all women and the judicial system. Men are never at fault.
A poster writes: "I have a friend who got fleeced online thinking that a Siberian super model 15 years his junior had chosen him of all people in the Western Hemisphere to fall in love with. This guy is not stupid..."
I've just begun the screenplay.
"For each story about a man being taken for a ride by his ex, there are 10 women who's husband has left them, doesn't support her ..."
-----------
What's funny about your statement, Americanwoman, is that you have the starting point that the man gets ripped if his wife TAKES TOO MUCH ("takes him for a ride"), but the woman gets ripped if his husband DOESN'T PAY ENOUGH ("doesn't support her").
You'd think that this feminist "equality" thing would mean equality. The starting assumption with most American women is that they are getting gyped if the guy doesn't pay them enough (for sex, I guess). You don't even see it yourself in your statements.
Here's the deal: The only way I can avoid paying you is to not get married. I don't want to pay you, not even for sex.
To rephrase my statement above: The starting point for a determination of equality is not zero (as you would expect) but some payment by the man to the woman.
Otherwise the debate wouldn't oscillate between the woman taking TOO MUCH or the man paying TOO LITTLE.
I never understood why one adult human being on this planet should be support another adult human being on this planet if he doesn't want to. But that's exactly what is expected of men and that's exactly what most women can get away with.
cham --
No, not many. As far as blaming women only, only a few like reality2007. The judicial system can be looked at empirically, and it is demonstrably biased in favor of women.
americanwoman --
For each story about a man being taken for a ride by his ex, there are 10 women who's husband has left them, doesn't support her or their kids and they are poverty sticken.
Bull. Point to some statistics. Those sound like numbers (10:1) that came out of your butt.
whiskey_199 --
What we are likely looking at is defacto polygamy, with a few high-status males doing all the reproducing.
You are living in a different country on a different planet than I. That looks nothing like the society I see around me on a daily basis. Suggestion: get out more.
The explanation for the bad boy phenomena: women desire contradictions, and “bad boys” don’t let them get away with that stupid shit. They’re not really bad boys, they just don’t accept responsibility for solving the modern woman’s impossible desires. Women instinctively get that men like that are more honest, more loyal to reality, more sincere than the "nice guy."
The modern woman harbors all manner of contradictory desires. She lives in a state of perpetual dissatisfaction. By satisfying one desire, she is logically bound to leave the other unsatisfied.
Common female contradictions:
“I want equality, so treat me special just because I’m a woman.”
“I want an assertive guy, who always does what I want.”
“I want a guy who cares about my needs, but I don’t want to tell him what they are.”
“A guy should KNOW what I want without me telling him, but he’d better not presume to know what I want.”
“He makes me happy, but no man can make me happy.”
“When I’m paying I want equality, when he’s paying I want the ‘gentleman’ to pay for it all.”
“I like intelligent guys, who always agree with me.”
“He shouldn’t be a door mat, and he should always have a care MY needs.”
“I don’t need a man, and I want a man who makes me feel needed.”
(and on, and on, and on…)
Let women figure out their own shit. Have lots of sex with them in the meantime.
If I was writing a relationship book for men here would be the thesis: don’t have them.
Oligonacella:
See above.
There are a lot of women out there whose life story is "I want to be unhappy and make you miserable too".
The sex before marriage is not worth it with them and after marriage it will be non-existent. Why? Well sex makes you happy if reasonably well done and moderately frequent (2-3 times a week). What is the down side for a such a woman with that? It ruins her life story. It kills the narrative. It also ruins her status at pity parties. Way more important than being happy or keeping a husband.
I ove the Mary comment about 70+% of divorces started by women, she fails to follow up with that most all of divorces end up with the settlement favoring the woman as she gets at least half and support till remarried if she doesn't just live with the guy to keep that heck a coming.
As to the Jeff comment it is a proven economic fact that it is cheaper to rent then own.
MPW
Jeff {9:14}:
Bingo!
M. Simon, above also:
I love women, but the LAST conversation I had with a guy about the 'war between' went like this:
'My GF says she likes sex but wants to be wooed into it... in other words, she wants to do it after a nice evening out.'
I said: 'So.. whats wrong with that?'
' Well, I think sex ought to be spontaneous and not treated like a reward. But I guess I understand that, but there's another problem.'
I said: 'What's the other problem?'
'Well the sex is over when she has an orgasm.. '
I told him: ' No, there isnt ANOTHER PROBLEM, there's only one problem!'
heh...
After reading the comments above one really stuck out and reminded me of a song...
AmericanWoman, stay away from me...
*
dont-marry.com/
*
Here is what you men want.
You want a woman who will marry you regardless of how you look, your income and your personality. You want her to be subservient to you. You don't want her to work outside the home. You want her to have and be the primary caregiver for your children.
But if she wants something in return, she's a money grubbing bitch. And heaven forbid that she initiate a divorce because of your treatment of her and expect you to pay support for your kids.
I know all men are not like the ones here. Luckily you are in the minority.
There are good decent men and women who treat marriage as a partnership and not as 'what have you done for me lately'.
And don't worry, I wouldn't be caught 10 feet within any of you.
BTW men have the internet now.
It is not as good as sex with a competent woman but it is a heck of a lot cheaper and you get Instapundit, Dr. Helen, IEC Fusion Technology, and Power and Control at no extra charge.
One or two others as well.
The 'net is always in the mood and will do almost anything you want. Very few hangups. All for about $30 a month for high speed. Compare that with the cost of a "real woman" and the baggage that comes with her. Plus you can fast forward past the dull parts and the bored looks.
Some wag above says rent, don't buy. Good advice. Best if you avoid the cost all together.
Gay marriage? I say bring it on. Why should hetros be the only sexual orientation to suffer? Fools.
AmericanWoman said...
And don't worry, I wouldn't be caught 10 feet within any of you.
I sure hope you are a promise keeper.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2004/jan/30/britishidentityandsociety.genderissues
Divorced women 'face poverty at 65'
The shocking financial plight of divorced women at retirement age was exposed by the Office for National Statistics yesterday in its annual report on social trends.
It said 40% of divorced women over 65 were poor enough to qualify for income support from the state, compared with 1% of married women and 23% of divorced men in the same age group.
The figures appeared to explode perceptions based on the experience of celebrity divorcees living in style after taking husbands to the cleaners in the divorce courts.
The ONS figures showed average earnings of divorced women over 65 in Britain were £92 a week in 2001/2, compared with £112 for widows and £227 for married couples.
The reason so many older divorced women are poor is that most spent time caring for children and returned to work too late to build up entitlement to a substantial occupational pension. This left them worse off on retirement than single women.
The old come on:
None until marriage.
Women are smarter now. Pop music has taught them to think like dope dealers:
The first one (or at least until you are a steady customer) is free.
============
As another wag pointed out:
What is the difference between marriage and prostitution?
One is legal the other is not.
And on a more sober note:
With prostitution the contract is explicit. Heh.
americanwoman - using British income statistics to make a point about American circumstances, which is what you appear to be doing, is hardly valid. We are similar cultures but our laws and other particulars are quite different.
Another good one:
What is the top rated porn movie among American women?
Debbie Does Nothing
I simply can't see any qualities in your statements and whole posts that would lead a man to want to be with you.
Not the kind of men you find here.
Suffice it to say, I'm in a generally happy and healthy relationship, and have been now for over 15 years. We were engaged 10 years ago, but chose not to marry because I wanted to pursue and advanced degree in another part of the state, while he stayed home and was a part-time caregiver to his mother after her stroke. There's a bit of an age difference, and as we haven't planned for children, we saw no need to involve the State in our relationship. Neither of us "takes care of" the other -- our finances are separate, and for the most part we both share costs, joint insurance policy, etc.
We like the independence, not smashing ourselves into the typical husband-wife stereotypes, which I think doom so many early couples. Being what you think "married people" are supposed to be.
We've both honest with each other, monogamous now, and have lived seperately for a time as described above. His family is mine, mine his, and we have a number of children in our lives that we enjoy -- not ours, but we get to share their joys.
We have a healthy sex life -- just joined ourselves physically this morning, if you must know. I suspect from what I've read here, I know more college-less men, working class guys, and single men than Helen. When she throws out some of these lines as "fact", it saddens me how she insults other people's choices.
You are condescending to everyone. I submit it is your own version of bitterness.
IN my observation, it's those who would steal that see theivery in others. Those who are bitter, who assume others share their mindset. (Misery loves company, right?) Those who whine instead of bucking up and realizing it's not ALL the women in the world, it just might be you that will perpetuate their plight.
It's really not about money or status, people. It's about kindness and love, forgiveness and patience. Have you heard this one:
“Love is patient; love is kind
and envies no one.
Love is never boastful, nor conceited, nor rude;
never selfish, not quick to take offense.
There is nothing love cannot face;
there is no limit to its faith,
its hope, and endurance.
In a word, there are three things
that last forever: faith, hope, and love;
but the greatest of them all is love.”
I know at some point a lot of people give up, and start living their love only through their children and grands. While I wouldn't criticize others' choices, I doubt that's too healthy in a physical or fulfillment sense, and often it puts a heavy burden on the children. (I'm particularly thinking divorced women who start to lean on their sons as partners, and never mate again. What a burden on a boy to have to fulfill his mother in this way, and here I obviously don't mean sexually.
My guy is working today. He's not a 9 to 5'er, office guy but has manual skills that are increasingly valuable. We're not rich monetarily, but we are rich in other ways. I do agree with the women above who would say don't try to "buy" us with things, or think you can earn love that way. While most women do want a self-sufficient man who can provide for himself -- maybe someday help grow a family -- if you think all females are money grubbers you ought to move out to the country, and free yourselves from the shackles on display so often here.
Remember: once you adopt that victim mindset, you're in a spiraling circle. Find another man -- someone you admire and respect -- and talk to him about your troubles, rather than a like mindset from someone who feels he's been victimized too?
Good luck cham! Keep your thoughts positive, and don't be afraid to ride that bicycle again, even if you've fallen -- or been pushed off -- time and again. Life is too short to continually feel sorry for yourself.
Like I asked the other day, open the comments on your own blog. Personally, I think that would be a blast. I read through parts of it once, and would love to comment on many of your "points of view". Put your picture up,too, so we can see what a true superior person looks like.
I know we're not supposed to feed the trolls, but no said anything about not feeding the pariah.
Do you want me to come visit and help you click and scroll too? Don't be so lazy and do your own work; I have nothing to hide. :-)
Marriage in America is not until death or adultery do us part anymore. Quite frankly, what marriage is today is a lot of bull$h1t, as a general rule
I very much agree!
And I suspect many of the younger people today do too, hence the drop in marriages.
Would it help to think of it like a business contract? Don't sign on the line, until you are certain of the product you are getting, and are confident in the bargain you are making. Unless her father is putting a shotgun to your head, you have a 50% say in the decision, and you should take the contract seriously, including the "till death do we part..." clause, if indeed you include that.
Since there's no stigma in "shacking up" nor in bearing a child out of wedlock, you should never ever sign a contract that you don't think either you or whoever it is you're contracting with, is incapable of fulfilling. If you've judged wrong, I'm sorry for you, and yes, it appears the penalty is having the State oversee your divorce plans, particularly if children are involved. I like that, as a taxpaying member of society who might be called upon to support the mistakes of others who mutually failed and had to break their contract.
What's happening, I would posit, is EXACTLY what you would expect in seeing some of the discomfort involved in separating a family: people are waiting and making better choices the FIRST time around. Divorce is no sin, (not in this country anyway) but it shouldn't be a painless, quick and easy, think for the reasons described above, same as the penalties paid for breaking any other contract, right?
We're in a disposable society, sure, but not all of us accept that you just use someone up and throw them away -- and that's a gender neutral statement there. Keep your word, and if you're unprepared to keep it or use good judgment in contracting with someone who also is, then do yourself a favor, wise up, and don't sign the papers and take the benefits in the first place. And if sadly something unforseen happens and you do divorce, accept the blame yourself. Even if she initiated. You'll not convince me that all those divorces -- particularly where children are involved and there's no adultery -- are women walking away from healthy relationships.
Good luck cham!
So sorry!! I meant br549. (Cham appears to me to have a healthy balance in his/her comments. So please disregard my error.)
Hi Mary,
I’m not sure how being aware of the realities of the situation equates to being a victim.
What I mostly see are people, aware of the problems inherent in relationships today, making decisions based upon that information. Some choose to not take part or to have low risk relationships. Does that make them victims? I don‘t think so. Is it sad that they have made the decisions they have made? In many cases yes, but from this and other posts I have read on the subject, it seems most are taking a realistic view of the situation and choosing their path based upon acceptable risk levels.
Folks pointing out the risks and problems of male/female relationships does not necessarily equate to men whining about their victim hood IMO. But, I suppose it is a matter of perspective. ;)
I’m not sure how being aware of the realities of the situation equates to being a victim.
mary is trying to shame the men here into accepting the blame, rather than discussing the issue.
I agree. When I was single, most women who I was intitially attracted to (and it wasn't the uber-hotties) would usually turn me off by displaying a rank selfishness and sense of entitlement, all the while prating about equality blah blah. Men were to be a subservient ATM machine with a penis attached.
But, I knew that there were true levelheaded women out there who were fair minded, strong people and delightfully feminine. I found one and married her.
Sgt Ted,
"mary is trying to shame the men here into accepting the blame"
I agree, women like her are threatened by men talking openly. They bank on men "manning up" and keeping themselves down so she and her ilk won't have to do too much work.
Hi average and sgt:
I called them "victims" because it appears that many are unhappy in their single states, staying inside playing games, and are unwilling to risk a healthy relationship with a woman.
If someone chooses to be celibate, and is able to accept and move past a former situation without being crippled by bitterness, then no -- I certainly don't consider such men victims.
What I am suggesting to those men who are not ready to give up on companionship yet, is that adopting a bitter or blaming attitude that encompasses ALL females is a self-fulfilling prophecy. An unhealthy matter of perspective, you might say.
Sometimes it's hard to look past the generalizations society constantly pushes, is all I'm saying. Not having -- or desiring -- a college degree doesn't doom a guy, and no all women are looking to be supported so they can stay home and eat bon bons on his salary.
I'm not saying all divorcees are "victims", but I suspect most of those generalizing about all women here and whining, (and yes, that's what we call it) want to be tagged with this label:
The courts have "victimized" them, isn't that what the majority of the post and thread are all about? Not everyone accepts the label, of course, and those that don't -- I suspect -- are the ones capable of healthily moving on and minimizing their pain.
Again, good luck to all.
"mary is trying to shame the men here into accepting the blame"
I agree, women like her are threatened by men talking openly. They bank on men "manning up" and keeping themselves down so she and her ilk won't have to do too much work.
Oh helen. Did you not read my comments? You distort facts to fit your pet theories, it seems. How sad what this says about your practice...
I suspect you could not handle the "open talk" that most genuinely healthy men engage in. And again the insult on working class men "keeping themselves down."
"and are unwilling to risk a healthy relationship with a woman."
Oh, I think most guys would be only too happy to risk a healthy relationship. The problem is that you don't learn that it wasn't a healthy relationship until you get that letter in the mail from her lawyer, and check your bank balance to find that she emptied the account out before leaving you.
It's funny, almost: I went into the marriage financially sound, she deep in debt, and two years later we were single again, and our financial positions exactly reversed. You'd almost think she planned it that way...
TO: Mary
RE: Say WHAT!!!?!??!
"And if sadly something unforseen happens and you do divorce, accept the blame yourself. Even if she initiated. You'll not convince me that all those divorces -- particularly where children are involved and there's no adultery -- are women walking away from healthy relationships." -- Mary [Mary, Quit Contrary]
Yeah. It's my fault that, as SGT Ted brings forth, I discover [1] shes converted the inheritence from my Father's estate into a CD in her name only, [2] I come back from an exercise in Germany to discover the house has been cleaned out, [3] her boss, the senior partner in a successful CPA firm paid for the movement of our possessions, and [4] he divorces his wife of 20 years to marry her.
All MY fault, obviously.
And, after she has a child by him, she divorces him, raping him in court the way she raped me.
That's obviously my fault too. I should have seen it coming.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Woman, n., the unfair sex. -- Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary, c. 19th Century]
TO: American Woman
RE: What Men Want
"Here is what you men want.
You want a woman who will marry you regardless of how you look, your income and your personality. You want her to be subservient to you. You don't want her to work outside the home. You want her to have and be the primary caregiver for your children." -- [One] AmericanWoman
Think again.
And, for reference material, read Proverbs 31. Pay close attention to the second part.
Hope that helps.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. I'm fortunate enough to be married to one such rare and wonderful person now.
AT 58 I have never been married. I was raised in the Episcopal Church, have a masters degree, intelligent, and am an artist. I spent my eligible years being told I was a nice guy - not rough enough, too intelligent, to o deep, and don't make enough money.
From what I have read over the past year in regards to the American Woman, I am not alone in being discarded because my intelligence and character are not in service to my dick and wallet.
Chuck:
It sounds like there was some adultery involved in tht scenario to me.
"You'll not convince me that all those divorces -- particularly where children are involved and there's no adultery -- are women walking away from healthy relationships."
Afterwards, you had a choice. You could wallow in your misery and sit in front of your video games, or you could accept what happened to you, recognize that not all women cheat and steal, and get out there and risk getting into a healthy relationship -- one you perhaps were better able to recognize based on your earlier experience.
I'm fortunate enough to be married to one such rare and wonderful person now.
Congratulations! It sounds like you "manned up" so to speak, and went out there and took another risk with the understanding that what was done to you in the past would not necessarily be repeated by all women.
I hope someday if another man -- a friend or acquantance of yours -- finds himself in the same boat that you were in, that he'll look at your later success and realize that he doesn't have to thrown in the towel and CAN find a healthy and happy companionship with another.
Good work, chuck! You're exactly the type of man we needed to hear more from here.
ps. Now I read that Ambrose Bierce quote, and word how you've phrased this: "I'm fortunate enough to be married to one such rare and wonderful person now."
and realize I might be wrongly assuming that you found your subsequent happiness with another woman. Apologies if my assumption was presumptuous.
You know, in East Tennessee, there are four judges on the appeals court and only one of them is a woman. I don't have any firm statistics on the numbers, but I suspect that there are more male judges than female judges out there and certainly, when these supposedly woman-biased precedents were being set forth in the American legal system, there were more male judges than female ones.
I don't think that unequal divorce law is the product of some feminist legal conspiracy to screw men out of their rightful earnings. If anything, it seems more likely that it's the product of an ingrained and possibly misplaced chivalry.
And as with anything in the legal system, it's going to take quite awhile for the laws to catch up to social reality.
Cerebrum,
You are correct that chivalry is involved --but that is only part of the equation--the other part being democratic groups who support women and laws that are unjust to men i.e. NOW. For example, there is a recent bill proposed by Joe Biden to add 100,000 volunteer lawyers to the VAWA to assist women who have supposedly been abused. This puts low income men at a severe disadvantage in the court system when it comes to child custody, alimony etc. You can read more here:
http://glennsacks.com/blog/?page_id=1517
TO: Mary [Mary, Quite Contrary]
RE: WHAT'S That??!?!?
"Congratulations! It sounds like you "manned up" so to speak, and went out there and took another risk with the understanding that what was done to you in the past would not necessarily be repeated by all women." -- Mary Mary [Mary, Quite Contrary]
'manned up'? What tripe is this? Sounds like being declared a 'meterosexual'.
Actually, there was a second incident, not involving 'adultery'. Just some woman who wanted a suitable 'donor' and I was sucker enough to fall for it.
When I became a REAL christian, the second one bailed. Taking our daughter with her.
After two bashings I was very much 'gun shy'. It was a good seven years of relationship before I recognized a REAL woman and decided on marriage for a third time.
RE: You're Interesting Misunderstandings
What are you drinking today?
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. Just finished watching Burton and Taylor in Taming of the Shrew....interesting 'coincidence', eh?
I have an ex-girlfriend who is a prosecutor in California. Despite a long-term relationship, we never completed the loop and got married, mainly because we had never really understood each others goals and dreams until we came to decision time. Even though we'd been involved that long, we'd never really gotten past the infatuation stage. It would've been a terrible marriage, although the breakup was devasting to both of us emotionally.
Eight years later, I was working at my desk when a dead mouse landed in front of me. I looked up, and a woman who was working on the airconditioning overhead was laughing at me. We've been married for eight years now. We have two little girls, and I think a very sound relationship, and here's why:
We know what we want. We don't agree on everything, but we share the same goals, and are committed to sharing the rewards and consequences. We aren't together for sex or money, but first to raise our children to be the best they can be - and that's a full time job. We spent the first four years of our relationship, prior to marriage, figuring those things out.
I wouldn't say we'd never get divorced. People grow and change, things happen, the world is not static. But I suspect most bad marriages happen for the reason my first relationship didn't work out - we were really only playing at it. If our marriage doesn't last, my first priority will be to see my children get what they need, because I believe that's the commitment we made when we turned off the birth control.
So, my theory is that, if people approached marriage the way they would a mortgage or a car loan (things that affect their lives much less profoundly than marriage), there would be a lot more successful marriages out there.
TO: Rob Thompson
RE: 'Nothing Personal', Eh?
"So, my theory is that, if people approached marriage the way they would a mortgage or a car loan (things that affect their lives much less profoundly than marriage), there would be a lot more successful marriages out there." -- Rob Thompson
And the kids are just 'assets of the corporation', eh?
And in the event of a dissolution of the corporation, they're divisible as such.
Nothing 'personal'.
Hooow niiiiice....*
Regards,
Chuck(le)
* It's an old joke about a class reunion of southern belles.
'manned up'? What tripe is this? Sounds like being declared a 'meterosexual'.
Lol.
Luckily, that particular type of "man" hasn't hit our area just yet...
"Manned up" is defined here as stopping the whining, licking your wounds, and getting back on your feet and dealing with life in a productive manner. Realizing that "life isn't fair".
(That's cute how you need it explained to you.)
No drinking here. Just some light shoveling, laundry, and catching up on paperwork. We've got some Leinie's HoneyWeiss in the fridge though, if you're asking what I'll be having with my venison casserole hot-dish later, before heading out to the game. Saturday night, date night, you know...
Admit it, Dr. Helen. This blog really is just bait you set out for prospective clients, no?
"And the kids are just 'assets of the corporation', eh?
And in the event of a dissolution of the corporation, they're divisible as such.
Nothing 'personal'.
Hooow niiiiice....*
Regards,
Chuck(le)"
Uh, no. What it means is that I recognize that reality doesn't give a damn about how I feel, and that I must therefore exercise due diligence.
But don't let that spoil a good rant.
TO: Rob Thompson
RE: No Rant
"But don't let that spoil a good rant." -- Rob Thompson
Just an observation that people, especially 'family' and MOST especially your own children, are not an exercise in 'due diligence'. They are not 'strictly business'....if you're doing it right.
I can walk away from a business. Indeed. I have. And on more than one occasion. But having your children taken from you is like having your heart wrenched out of your chest. But at least with the physical version of that there is no lingering pain. With the figurative version, the pain never quite seems to stop.
Four years ago, this week, I told what USWest had become to cram it up their fourth-point-of-contact. And I've not looked back.
Fifteen years ago, next month, Ex #2 walked out because I'd become a real christian. The pain of the loss of my second daughter has only been increased by the disaster the life of my first daughter by my first marriage has become this last year. Because I WASN'T THERE!!!!!
Your description of marriage as a corporate merger is anathema. Unless you are truly emotionally disadvantaged, you don't put your very life into a godless corporation.
In short, your analogy 'sucks'.
Hope that helps.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[They [corporations] cannot commit treason, nor be outlawed nor excommunicated, for they have no souls. -- Sir Edward Coke, Lord Chief Justice of England, 1628]
TO: Ti-Guy
RE: [OT] Perhaps
"Admit it, Dr. Helen. This blog really is just bait you set out for prospective clients, no?" -- Ti-Guy
I think a more probable theory would be she uses it for (1) research and/or (2) ideas for future books.
Heck. She might just enjoy seeing 'lots of little people, hitting each other', as Napoleon, played by Ian Holmes in Time Bandits, declared.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[If I were inventing Creation, I wouldn't muck around with butterflies and daffodiles. I'd have started out with lasers! 8 o'clock! Day one! -- Evil, Time Bandits]
"Your description of marriage as a corporate merger is anathema." - Chuck(le)
Except. of course, that that isn't what I said.
TO: Mary [Mary, Quite Contrary]
RE: Living 'Down' To Expectations
"We've got some Leinie's HoneyWeiss in the fridge though, if you're asking what I'll be having with my venison casserole hot-dish later...." -- Mary [Mary, Quite Contrary]
I'd recommend a ham dish; preferably honey-baked, spiral-cut with the beverage.
For venison, I'd prefer something a tad more 'dry'. A chablis, perhaps. Chardonney's are too acerbic to my palette for such a dish.
Bon appetite!
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[The food MUST follow the wine. -- Mrs. Petticarot, as played by Candice Bergen in The Wind and the Lion]
TO: Rob Thompson
RE: Perhaps
"Except. of course, that that isn't what I said." -- Rob Thompson
But that's what I heard in what you stated.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[The English language is the most easily misunderstood. And that is our chiefest problem in dealing with each other. -- CBPelto]
So, who's got the craziest rant? Chuck or Mary?
Or maybe he/she is the one person with multiple personalities.
Rob, very good (and heartwarming) post. But the way people default on their mortgages today, I'm not sure that was a good analogy.
TO: Mary [Mary, Quite Contrary]
RE: Stupid, Insipid Terms and Pharses of Modern English
""Manned up" is defined here as stopping the whining, licking your wounds, and getting back on your feet and dealing with life in a productive manner. Realizing that "life isn't fair"." -- Mary [Mary, Quite Contrary]
Sounds like someone is making-it-up-as-they-go-along and trying to be 'cute'.
Licking wounds is good for you. While they are fresh. There's something in saliva that kills infections bacteria. Once the oozing stops, there is no longer a need to do it.
Anyone who's done several years in the infantry recognizes that Life-is-not-Fair.
There's another argument for Universal Service. Gets one out of the family créche and into the REAL world. [Note to Dr. Helen: Pass that one along to the BlogVader.]
At any rant....your suggestion of the concept of 'manning up' strikes me as another example of trying to control the mentalities by controlling the language used in such discussions.
I'm reminded, in a schitzie subject-matter-jump sort of way of a discussion at a Denver Chapter of Mensa general meeting where a professor of Constitutional Law from Denver University was plying the assemblage with such terms and definitions.
When said bimbo said there was no such thing as Constitutional Rights, there was something of a stirring in the audience.
She said there were not Constitutional Rights. There were only 'Textual Rights'.
The concept was that if you change the 'text' you change the 'right'.
At this point, some people became downright....'hostile'. I think I was one of them.
My point here is that this coming up with cutesy names for things that are basic to being a 'man' strikes me as someone trying to redefine the playing field by 'textual' manipulation. Just as that 'professor' from DU attempted.
TO: Dr. Helen
RE: Ti-Guy Comment
Maybe you and the good BlogVader should look into this sort of manipulation. Might be an assignment for some budding psychologist or professor of Constitutional Law....
...how to change the law by changing the definitions of commonly held terms or inventing new terms.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[England and America are two peoples separated by a common language. -- Some statesman]
P.S. I suggest that someone in the realm of national politics, and political correctness, has taken that lesson to heart and is using it for leverage. This discussion is a case in point of evidence.
TO: dadvocate
RE: Hardly
"Or maybe he/she is the one person with multiple personalities." -- dadvocate
If you follow the linkerage, you'll go in different directions. Imagine yourself tied to two cross-tied-down spruce saplings.
Imagine what happens when the saplings are loosed....happening to your 'connection', or brain.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Oxymoron: Split level.]
P.S. I'm winding down, i.e., 'slumming', after 6.5 days of heavy database design work. Please forgive....but I NEED this 'break'. I've been dealing with literal rationality for too long.....
AmericanWoman said...
"But the way people default on their mortgages today, I'm not sure that was a good analogy."
I can't help it if people treat their mortgages the way they do their relationships... :)
Thanks for the compliment.
For venison, I'd prefer something a tad more 'dry'. A chablis, perhaps. Chardonney's are too acerbic to my palette for such a dish.
Bon appetite!
Thanks for the tip, but um... you'll have to find your own date/dinner. And Leinenkugel is a beer, not a wine.
Also, can you please describe for the rest of us exactly what you expected of your wife upon becoming a "real" Christian?
It sounds like imposing the Muslim version of the hijab. And I just can't imagine how something like that would make her figure that she and your daughter were better off without you...
Funny, for somebody who would accuse others of being not fit for relationship material, you certainly have built a track record for yourself. And amazing, how it is always somebody else's fault...
Sounds like someone is making-it-up-as-they-go-along and trying to be 'cute'.
You've never heard somebody say, "Man up" when a guy was acting whiny and nothing good would come of it? Never played any sports, I suppose, or had a father who was sick of you blaming things on others?
I suppose, "Toughen up, buttercup" wasn't in your lingo either? Lol -- and the results show.
Licking wounds is good for you. While they are fresh.
Um, right. Which is why I said that. Let me reformat:
When your heart is broken, you should:
1)stop the whining
2)lick your wounds
3)get back on your feet, and
4)deal with life in a productive manner.
5)recognize that "life isn't fair."
Do you have any male friends? Because I can't imagine they'd let you get away with the whining for long.
For the record, I'm not ranting. Just trying to advise some of the brokenhearted how they might change their plight. Clearly though, some enjoy playing the victim. Your poor kids/pawns...
Well, it seems to me that too many people pretend to believe that they live in a romance novel (girl meets boy, girl loses boy, girl wins boy back) or, even worse, a situation comedy (man=inferior idiot; woman=superior genius).
The simple truth is this. Marriage law, which descends from English common law in the 15th century, is set up to protect women from men. Dr. Helen is correct that this formulation derives from the chivalric movement of earlier centuries, particularly the 13th and 14th.
But I don't think that's part of the problem. Chivalry is about respect for women, being courteous, not taking advantage of or forcing yourself on them. I seriously doubt Dr. Helen would describe that as a problem. Rather, the real problem is a misguided sense of chivalry commonly depicted in medieval romances--the gallant knight must undergo a perilous and testing quest to prove his love for the beautiful lady. (Like that's going to work.)
So much of our contemporary notions of romance come from the Middle Ages, as do our laws governing marriage. These notions and laws have not changed with the times, and are really no longer workable since the feminist revolution of the early 1970s.
Read a romance novel today. It's all about her all the time (see the standard plot noted above). This is a relatively recent development. But it is not indicative of reality any more than medieval romances were.
The funny thing about it is that the greatest romance novel, Gone With the Wind, which happens to be the No. 1 best seller of all time, is far more realistic. Rhett Butler thinks all he has to do is go on a perilous and testing quest to make himself into a millionaire and a man, and then Scarlett O'Hara will love him. So he did, and she didn't.
Oh, she married him. Of course she married him; she needed his money. And because the real love of her life, Ashley Wilkes (girl meets boy), wouldn't have anything to do with her (girl loses boy). No, Ashley married her best friend Melanie. (Snort.) And Melanie, on her deathbed, tells Scarlett, "Be kind to your husband. He loves you."
But she won't listen to her. Now that Scarlett's main competition is gone, this is her big chance to finally snare Ashley (girl wins boy back). Not in this book. Ashley didn't love her. Ashley never loved her. Her husband, Rhett, did love her, but now he's leaving.
And as he's walking out the door, Scarlett suddenly comes to the realization of how incredibly stupid she's been and that she really does love him. "Rhett! Rhett! Don't go! Don't go! Where will I go? What will I do?"
"Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn."
You want a romance plot? I got your romance plot right here. Girl meets man. Girl refuses to grow up. Man leaves. I would say that's fairly descriptive of the dating scene these days.
In the end, and this is what Ashley knew that Rhett did not, there is no law to protect men from women. That's why Ashley married a woman, a real woman, and why he wouldn't have anything to do with a conceited, spoiled, stupid little girl. When Melanie passed away--and her husband was right there, right by her side, comforting her, soothing her, assuring her, loving her--Ashley was still rich. When Rhett walked out on Scarlett, he had nothing left of his millions but the clothes he was wearing.
The lesson here is that a man has no choice but to protect himself and his money. Do you know her? Is she honest? Can you trust her? If the answer to all three of those questions is an unqualified yes, then marry her. She'll be the greatest asset you ever had. If the answer is not an unqualified yes, do not let her into your house and do not let her anywhere near your money. Period.
My advice to young men today would be this. Set up a corporation, an LLC, and put all your money in corporate funds, then use that corporation to buy assets. If you later decide to marry, go to a lawyer and draw up a prenuptial agreement that clearly and unambigously states that corporate funds are not to be considered community funds.
Then split every paycheck right down the middle, 50% personal funds and 50% community funds. Place the personal funds in the corporate account and continue to use the corporation to buy assets. Any purchase or investment made by you and your wife is to be made with community funds only. And never--I mean, never--mix corporate funds with community funds.
If the woman you marry is faithful, honest and true, if she is right there by your side to the bitter end, then you can leave her and your children the corporate funds and assets in your will.
However, if she is not faithful, honest and true, then when you divorce she is legally entitled to half the community funds and property. She is in no way entitled to the corporate funds and assets.
They are not going to change the law, boys, not in our lifetimes. So give here exactly what she is entitled to, 50%. But always protect your money. A man has no other choice.
If you follow the linkerage, you'll go in different directions.
I'm not about to read more than 3-4 sentences of what you or Mary are writing today. I'll take my chances with saplings rather than saps. :-)
TO: Mary [Mary, Quite Contrary]
RE: Recommendations
"Thanks for the tip, but um... you'll have to find your own date/dinner. And Leinenkugel is a beer, not a wine." -- Mary [Mary, Quite Contrary]
I know, dear. I know. I've done enough 'tours' in Germany, thanks to all of you tax-payers out there, to know that.
However, it's STILL a 'beverage'. And it's too sweet for the relatively dry nature of venison.
By-the-by...this is not flirtation.
The distaff is due back in another five minutes and dinner is likely to be a home-made pizza. We have our own secret sauce. It'll probably involve ham, green olives, onion and pineapple.
The beverage will be Pilz Urquel, in honor of her father. We bought a case of it the other week. Half will go to him, as a rememberence of where he was, Pilz, Czechoslovakia, when WWII ended. He fondly remembers the residents breaking down walls and hauling out casks of their fine beverage to celebrate.
You go have a good time. Be assured, we'll have ours.
RE: Ex #2
"Also, can you please describe for the rest of us exactly what you expected of your wife upon becoming a "real" Christian?" -- Mary [Mary Quite Contrary]
I had expected her to honor her marriage vows and put our daughter first.
Now, if feeling that such ideas as....
[1] Thou shalt not kill.
[2] Thou shalt not steal.
[3] Thou shalt not bear false witness against they neighbor.
[4] Love they neighbor.
[5] Blessed are the peace-makers....
[6] Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness sake....
[7] Blessed are the merciful…
[8] Blessed are the meek…
Are WRONG-thinking....
....I guess there are serious issues between the two of us that were never expressed.
On the other hand, if such ideals are RIGHT-thinking and she left anyway....WHY?
But left she did. And took our daughter with her.
And now our daughter presents herself with a web-handle of "noone86". And I dread the inference. [Note: 1986 was the year of her birth.]
So...what's your point?
RE: Perhaps....
"It sounds like imposing the Muslim version of the hijab. And I just can't imagine how something like that would make her figure that she and your daughter were better off without you..." -- Mary [Mary, Quite Contrary]
....it has something to do with your allegation (above) that if a woman leaves a man from a marriage vow, it's the man's own fault.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Can you say, 'touché'? I knew you could.]
TO: dadvocate
RE: Okay
"I'm not about to read more than 3-4 sentences of what you or Mary are writing today. I'll take my chances with saplings rather than saps. :-)" -- dadvocate
But it sounds like a self-inflicted wound to me, buckie. Either way....
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. You going to be a the Mensa Annual Gathering? Or are you the REAL 'sap' around here?
TO: Mary [Mary, Quite Contrary]
RE: Male Friends?
"Do you have any male friends? Because I can't imagine they'd let you get away with the whining for long." -- Mary [Mary, Quite Contrary]
RE: Male Friends?
A few score of comrades-in-arms and such-in-Christ.
All of whom would likely trust me with their very lives, in a tight spot.
How many of such have you got?
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[You never REALLY know who your true friends are until the bullets begin to fly...around your head.]
P.S. Here is proof the adage about how, "A handful of friends are worth more than a wagon full of gold."
I've done enough 'tours' in Germany, thanks to all of you tax-payers out there, to know that.
It's not an import, but of course, you already knew that ;-)
All of whom would likely trust me with their very lives, in a tight spot.
Betcha also thought at one time Wife 1 and Wife 2, plus the kid(s) trusted you with their live too, eh? Track record.
Sorry. You just sound like a whiny flake to me. I suspect Wife #3 might be leaving you with an empty place very soon too, based on your comments here about women, in general.
Naturally, she'll be to blame for leaving ... and expecting you to support your offspring.
How many of such have you got?
It's quality, not quantity, and my track record in that department is very good.
it has something to do with your allegation (above) that if a woman leaves a man from a marriage vow, it's the man's own fault.
Nope. I said he should man up accept blame, at the very least for making exhibiting bad judgment and making a poor choice.
As you've already told us here, you've done at least twice... But don't worry: there are plenty of support groups, and doctors that can help counsel you.
I'm gender neutral: when women keep picking losers, we say she needs to break the pattern, stop making herself a victim through her poor choices. Letting her heart rule her head so to speak. When a man exhibits the same foolish choices though, our first instinct might be to pity him... but then no real man wants to play the victim card, eh?
Enjoy your wine!
I know, dear. I know.
By-the-by...this is not flirtation.
Thank goodness.
You're not so attractive to me as you seem to think. I prefer the more ... masculine types. Kinda suits me better. Less likely to pour forth their tales of woe when they get a little liquored up.
But then, you've been to Germany. You already understand that.
(Are you the crying type too, when your done pouring out those tales of woe about your women and offspring?)
The distaff is due back in another five minutes and dinner is likely to be a home-made pizza. We have our own secret sauce. It'll probably involve ham, green olives, onion and pineapple.
The beverage will be Pilz Urquel, in honor of her father. We bought a case of it the other week. Half will go to him, as a rememberence of where he was, Pilz, Czechoslovakia, when WWII ended. He fondly remembers the residents breaking down walls and hauling out casks of their fine beverage to celebrate.
Stop it really.
You're killing us here...
TO: Mary [Mary, Quite Contrary]
RE: Quantity AND Quality, My Dear
"It's quality, not quantity, and my track record in that department is very good." -- Mary [Mary, Quite Contrary]
I've got several plane-loads of paratroopers [82d Airborne], a company of Rangers and one guy with a carte blanche from General Westmoreland. Not to forget an interesting collection of fellow officers and NCOs.
That's quality as well as quantity, on the military side.
Then there are my brothers in Christ.
Pardon my sense of crass, but I've 'shown you mine'....
But, as I've been alluding to here, you ARE 'quite contrary'. And evasive as well.
I suspect that follows with all of your 'arguments' here.
RE: Another Touch of Crass
"Nope. I said he should man up accept blame, at the very least for making exhibiting bad judgment and making a poor choice." -- Mary [Mary, Quite Contrary]
There's that bogus use of a termed phrase used to talk around a matter; 'man-up'.
If we use your turn of a phrase, women should 'belly up' to the 'bar' and accept THEIR responsibility for the disasters they inflict on their families and society.
But we don't seem to hear much of that from you....for some 'strange' reason.
Personal responsibility is what REAL men ask of each other.
What do 'women' ask of each other?
From the looks of it, as we see it today in the so-called major media, it appears to be 'covering' for each other.
Some woman, the 'wife' of a minister' murders her husband/pastor as he sleeps and she gets a vacation in a pscyh ward.
On the other hand, what happens if a man does such to his espoused?
We've seen this matter addressed in this forum before. But you don't seem to touch on it.
Why is that?
Belly up to the 'bar', babe.
I dares ya.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[A touch of crass.]
Girl meets man. Girl refuses to grow up. Man leaves. I would say that's fairly descriptive of the dating scene these days.
Obviously you haven't read this thead.
It's the women wising up and doing the moving on these days, it sounds like. The men are more passive and expect the comforting after the fact. And for the right price, some are only to happy to provide it!
TO: All
RE: Mary [Mary, Quite Contrary]
The truth will out (see above).
But enough for now.
The pizza is ready.
Time for dinner and a movie.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. More later....
P.P.S. Oops. Another few minutes on the pizza. The cheese has not properly browned...just yet.
In the meantime....
....here's a statistic for your consideration.
Why is it that two-thirds of all divorce proceedings, as I last looked some time ago, are brought by women?
And:
[1] What are the reasons?
[2] What are the decisions?
[3] What are the justifications for the 'decisions' (item #2, above)?
I suspect that some bright attorney could make an interesting case on a 'pattern of behavior' regarding some form of prejudice that amounts to the sort of bias we see in racial discrimination cases argued over the last 20 years....if they looked.
Belly up to the 'bar', babe.
A beer with dinner hardly a drink whore makes. But again, you already knew that, eh?
I've got several plane-loads of paratroopers [82d Airborne], a company of Rangers and one guy with a carte blanche from General Westmoreland. Not to forget an interesting collection of fellow officers and NCOs.
It sounds like you admire the masculine types very much too. Not that there's anything wrong with that...
I'm sorry you've had to spend your personal and intimate time with those unfair women, and depressed daughters. "You reap what you sow."
Well, we're off to the game.
Looks like you'll have to find another shoulder to cry one, dear.
Chuck/Mary - Mary/Chuck - Hmmm,
Multiple Personality Disorder -
Particular identities may emerge in specific circumstances and may differ in reported age and gender, vocabulary, general knowledge, or predominant affect. Alternate identities are experienced as taking control in sequence, one at the expense of the other, and may deny knowledge of one another, be critical of one another, or appear to be in open conflict.
Occasionally, one or more powerful identities allocate time to the others. Aggressive or hostile identities may at times interrupt activities or place the others in uncomfortable situations.
Yes, I think this is definitely a possibility.
Obviously, Mary, reading comprehension is not your forte.
I've read every word on this thread. And every word on the Should Men Marry and the Should Women Marry threads. I did not say anything even remotely derogatory toward women, real women. In fact, I stood up for them. I did however say something about conceited, spoiled, stupid little girls.
Grow up. Get over your bad self. Have some dignity. Have some class. Have some self-respect. Make a woman, for God's sake.
Or is that asking too much of you?
Oh, well, whine and complain about it then. Lash out at men. That's what conceited, spoiled, stupid little girls do. That's all they're capable of doing. And that's why they aren't worth 50%.
TO: All
RE: Mary [Mary, Quite Contrary], Exposed
"I'm sorry you've had to spend your personal and intimate time with those unfair women, and depressed daughters. "You reap what you sow."" -- Mary [Mary, Quite Contrary]
As I was ascribing, earlier, Mary's approach to all the problems in the world is that 'men' don't own up to their own faults.
Doesn't matter what women do. Men are always at fault. And whatever happens, women are not at fault.
So...
...she's off to her 'game'.
Let her be. We understand her better now.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Woman, n., The unfair sex. -- Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictonary, c. 19th Century]
P.S. TO: dadvocate
When you can sell that POS to Mary, I'd like to see the receipt.
dadvocate,
Everyone has multiple personalities.
See "Societies of the Mind" by Minsky.
The question is: has "The Watcher" been installed or do the personalities appear at random? i.e. are the personalities controlled by events or by reason?
now THAT was fun.
m. simon - interesting theory but just a theory, like much of psychology and Minsky wasn't even a psychologist.
But please realize I wasn't being the least bit serious, just filling in a very rainy day.
Life is too important to be taken seriously.
Oscar Wilde
cham said: "w: Many of helen's commenters and helen put the blame for many things squarely on all women and the judicial system. Men are never at fault."
Now, I don't see that at all!
I do see ADDING the women's part of the blame for what is happening to the men's blame! That is fair and reasonable. BUT! The current and mostly supported 'only the men are at fault' now that! Ah, that is evil incarnate.
There's simply no way for you or the other Jane Averages to say that our society and culture have not spent forty years putting ALL of the blame for our social problems onto the males. It's going to feel wrong when a female sees a balanced look at a problem due to the last forty years: Our womenfolk are just plain not at all used to seeing the female half of blame. That feeling in no way means it is wrong to look in a balanced way at our problems!
TO: jw
RE: The Female-Half of the 'Problem'
"Our womenfolk are just plain not at all used to seeing the female half of blame. That feeling in no way means it is wrong to look in a balanced way at our problems!" -- jw
Interesting.
I recently procured Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End.
Watched it several times now.
Last time, I noticed the relationship between Davey Jones and Calypso; their exchange in the brig.
Davey, who spends ten years at sea and only has one day on shore with his lover, Calypso, is 'miffed' that on the day he was supposed to have of 'shore leave', SHE WASN'T THERE!
To which she replies, "It is my nature."
Then she goes on to justify her reneging on her part of the 'understanding' by saying, "Would you love me if I were not true to my own nature?" Or words to that effect.
And she doesn't seem to grasp the idea that her feckless nature was the reason Davy Jones went 'renegade' and became a 'monster'. Or, more probably, if she does, she doesn't care that she's an important factor in all the trouble.
How very 'interesting'.
But, in the end, men, a la Captain Barbarosa, are supposed to kneel before her and offer oblation, despite her proclivity to stab them, if it suits her mind.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Hollywood imitates Life.]
P.S. In Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End, Davy Jones is heartless because it was physically cut out of him.
Calypso is heartless because 'it is her nature'.
Is there an English Lit prof in the audience?!?!?!?!?????
TO: Mary [Mary, Quite Contrary], Exposed
RE: How....
....was the 'date'?
By the way, is the dator aware of this web-site? This thread?
If not, why not?
If so, I'd like to hear his opinion on these discussions.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out. -- Some Wag]
How was the 'date'?
"We" won 10-1. Good game.
the dator aware of this web-site? This thread?
Yep. But his fingers are a bit big for keyboard pecking. Doesn't much go in for whiny men and "dr." helen is definitely not his type.
We do laugh over the cast of characters though. And the continual recommendations of the "dangerous" books for boys. :-)
The Truth will out. -- Some Wag
The truth shall set ye free, is the way I heard it...
Say, you're not one of those metrosexual's are ya? (All that army buddy worship, and "out" talk... )
Whaddya know... Miami won one!
TO: Mary [Mary, Quite Contrary]
RE: Excuse Me.....
"Yep. But his fingers are a bit big for keyboard pecking. Doesn't much go in for whiny men and "dr." helen is definitely not his type." -- Mary [Mary, Quite Contrary]
....while I doubt your veracity on this.
RE: Meterosexual? Moi?
"Say, you're not one of those metrosexual's are ya? (All that army buddy worship, and "out" talk... )" -- Mary [Mary, Quite Contrary]
Trying to turn the tables, eh? Too bad. It's an indicator, as the MI types would say. Something about 'evasion'.
By the by...
...you've still not 'shown me yours' on this particular business.
You lined up with the brainless, babbling, bimbos of The View that the BlogVader highlighted today?
RE: Miami
"Whaddya know... Miami won one!" --
Mary [Mary, Quite Contrary]
Who are they?
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. Looking forward to hearing [here] from your fat-fingered friend....if he exists....which i doubt.
Either that or HE is one of those 'meterosexuals' you said, earlier, don't exist where you live.
Would that be somewhere in the vicinity of 'Miami'? Or the town they won in last night?
And there are no such thingies as 'meterosexuals' in Miami?
Interesting indicators, those; your connected communications.....
P.S. Fat-Fingers and All?
Do his knuckles drag on the ground as he walks?
I've been accused of that...
I don't lie.
And your personal interest in me here is bizarre.
You're just a puppet, and I've played along, eh? Get a life. And a date of your own...
Don't break a nail clicking...
TO: Mary [Mary, Quite Contrary]
RE: Nails?
"Don't break a nail clicking..." -- Mary [Mary, Quite Contrary]
My. You're certainly drifting far from rational discussion.
More evasion, eh.
As for whether or not you 'lie', that's a point we may be getting to appreciate. I would point out that you certainly evade, obfuscate and don't answer questions directly.
All of which would indicate that you have a predisposition to 'lie'.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Cosi fan tutti, fraulie'n]
P.S. At this point, I've little interest in you, dearl.
I'm more interested in your 'dator'.
Is he aware of your claims that anything that happens to him in a 'relationship', especially with YOU, his own d----d fault?
whiskey, if women are hard-wired to want guys with money, then why is there so much anger about that fact? It's a merit-based system, much better than the one women deal with; any guy with the right amount of money can get a woman, but if you're a woman, well, you are only going to stay young so long and beauty is in large part due to what Nature gave you. Your argument really suggests that guys who can't get laid have nobody to blame but themselves. It's like complaining that I don't get paid as much as the guy who works twice as many hours as I do.
Did you click the link and check out his hand? He's blushing at your interest.
Be careful waving around that "liar" card. Just might get played on you.
I have long considered women as just prostitutes trying to be expensive prostitutes and I have no problems with that. (This general issue is discussed a fair amount in social economics, evolutionary psychology and biological anthropology, topics where I have read extensively.)
In general, most men are like me, regarding sex as prostitution and having no problems with it, provided that the termns and conditions of employment are agreed-to by both partners at the start of the transaction. Women, on the other hand, seem to have a lot of problems with it, almost certainly because the heuristics men use when they enter into an explicit contract is distinctly different than when they are "in love".
With regard to breeding contracts, men and women seem to have distinctly different biases concerning (1) the length of the contract, (2) who gets to end the contract, (3) what happens if the women fails to uphold her end of the contract (i.e., commits paternity fraud) including whether the man can even detect female cheating and what he should be allowed to do prevent and/or punish cheating after it is detected and (4) how much the man should pay for sexual access. Any intelligent adult can pretty much predict what these male and female biases will be.
What annoys (maybe "enrages" is a better word) me about most American women is how "self-righteous, hypocritical, petty, vindictive, manipulative and treacherous" they are. Most of them spend an enormous amount of time trying to build a reputation for being pro-social toward men while simultaneously manipulating the social environment to entrap them. Entering into a long-term "committment contract" with a women in the U.S. is simply a suicidal and stupid thing for a man to do. Most American women simply don't deserve to be trusted.
TO: bobh
RE: Most American Women
"What annoys (maybe "enrages" is a better word) me about most American women is how "self-righteous, hypocritical, petty, vindictive, manipulative and treacherous" they are." -- bobh
Agree.
First, that the good ones are very rare, indeed.
As for the majority, when you hear them start to describe you as being "self-righteous, hypocritical, petty, vindictive, manipulative and treacherous", have a care.
They're probably 'projecting'.
Pay close attention, thereafter and see if they are the ones being "self-righteous, hypocritical, petty, vindictive, manipulative and treacherous".
I think you'll find they are.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Mouth, n., In men, the gateway to their soul. In women, the outlet of their heart. -- Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary]
P.S. You're making a sound argument for the repeal of Womens' Sufferage. If they cannot be trusted with the 'little things', i.e., personal integrity in personal relationships, how can we trust them in the bigger things....
[1] Women gave us Bill Clinton as president.
[2] Women caused hung juries in obvious cases of murder, because they thought the defendants were 'cute'.
P.P.S. And just to drive another 'nail' home...consider THIS....
http://tigerhawk.blogspot.com/2007/12/carbon-is-hot.html
Courtesy of the BlogVader.
Common female contradictions:
“I want an assertive guy, who always does what I want.”
Heh, that's the one that always gets me. I'm a 'say exactly what I think, and if you don't like it that's YOUR problem' kinda guy, and women frequently mistake that for assertive alpha male oh you're so attractive blah blah blah.
... and they're always SO shocked and angry to find out that I treat them precisely the same way as everyone else, and ohmigod I am such an awful person for acting 100% consistently with what they thought was so attractive when applied to other people.
Funny, that...
Mythago --
I am saying that the widespread social issues of only a few men reproducing are going to be ugly.
Yes women are hard-wired as men are hard-wired for certain things.
And you miss my point -- the generally poor position of women prior to the current day led to the average guy being a much better catch. The improvement in women's lives which should be a boon (a man's wife, sister, mother do better) has tended to be a disaster for non-Alpha men.
Given that Western civilization is built upon the mobilization of resources of the average guy, and not the Alpha Male, I see disaster looming.
Or the extremely ugly social response: restricting women's rights/freedoms/etc. to make the sexual marketplace more favorable to men.
Don't think men who are losers won't think of it. That some unscrupulous man won't take advantage of it to rise to some sort of power (social, political, etc.)
I think it is stupid, dangerous, and horror-inducing to create a huge class of unattached men who are losers in the mating game. Societies that do that: Africa and the ME, tend to be extremely violent and primitive. Stuck in a violent stasis as "Big Men" compete over a limited resource: women. Where the only thing that changes is the next wave of violence washing over as the inevitable losers use violence to become winners.
To be blunt, I do NOT want either "kinder, kuche, und Kirche" or a repeal of the ability of women to live their own lives. Nor turning society into say, Liberia and the sort of horrors one can find there.
IMHO the solution is social norms that women demand of themselves: less sexual partners, delayed sexual activity, social shame/stigma for being an unmarried mother, and careful consideration of the type/kind of man they want to marry. Along with the ability to have children earlier when it is far physically easier and better (having children in your twenties reduces Breast Cancer risk, having them in the thirties/forties increases the risk, not having them at all increases the risk even more). And social expectations that women can restart their careers when their children are older.
americanwoman: Divorced women 'face poverty at 65'
Then why the hell do they leave?
On your next point about the "ideal" woman being the sole caretaker: I think a good father should be close to his children and play with them. Father's can teach their children valuable lessons and give them a different perspective on situations. I also think a father should be responsible enough to watch over the children and give the mother a break everyone once in a while.
m. simon: Debbie Does Nothing
I laughed about that one.
Well sex makes you happy if reasonably well done and moderately frequent (2-3 times a week).
I have heard that marriages are happier when sex is frequent, unfortunately it seems like a lot of time the woman refuses.
Mary: What's your definition of victim? Someone who claims that their rights aren't being granted?
Rob Thompson: So, my theory is that, if people approached marriage the way they would a mortgage or a car loan (things that affect their lives much less profoundly than marriage), there would be a lot more successful marriages out there.
Perhaps I am exaggerating the number of people who are not consistent on their payments, but I see your example a different way: If people would have a plan and strive to make their payments on time, no matter the consequences, then they would be financially much better off. I think the same applies to marriage: you must have a specific plan and be willing to work something out even during the hard times.
Whiskey_199, your solution is simple, get women to change so the beta males can find a mate. Don't hold your breath that your idea is going to work.
Mary: Whaddya know... Miami won one!
My step-grandpa's favorite team is Miami and I hear he gets ornery when they lose, at least he can have a day to be good-natured.
Screw Miami and the horse they road in on.
Been thinking about this alpha male thing. The alpha male wanna be's run for office. No real alpha male would want to waste his time as a politician.
Serket: Perhaps I am exaggerating the number of people who are not consistent on their payments, but I see your example a different way: If people would have a plan and strive to make their payments on time, no matter the consequences, then they would be financially much better off. I think the same applies to marriage: you must have a specific plan and be willing to work something out even during the hard times.
Precisely what I meant. Thank you.
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in the sex party -
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granny dolls -
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happy hour girls -
her first gangbang -
her first pregnancy -
hs boys -
interracial society -
in the sex party -
jerk that cock bitch -
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josie and friends -
josie junior -
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muchachos -
my first cum bath -
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naughty julie -
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no way am i gay -
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playful jessica -
playing with toni -
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preggo abuse -
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quickie fuck -
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real time videos -
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security cam sex -
severe penetrations -
sexy shemales from brazil -
shelby belle -
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slap that butt -
sleep invasion -
snatches -
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spring break skin -
stunning angels -
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sweet dominique -
sweet juliet -
teen sabrina -
teen stop -
the cam slut -
the cock zilla -
the dick suckers -
the hoes we choked -
the taste of brazilian ass -
tia sweet -
tokyo fuckfest -
totally tranny -
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ultimate sex pass -
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acme porn -
amateur hunks -
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baby got boobs -
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bonus boy sites -
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brooke skye -
busty alli -
busty and real -
camel toe auditions -
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cam matrix -
cam monitor -
car show cuties -
casey hays -
cfnm exposed -
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chelci fox -
classics of porn -
club strawberry -
college boy physicals -
crazy club chicks -
cream in teen -
cum on candi -
cum on her face -
cum troopers -
cunt abuse -
cute kimberly -
cute teen pink -
debbie teen -
drunk club cuties -
drunk on cam -
etu show -
facial mvp -
faith belle -
fiesta snatch -
forced to prostitute -
french fuck faces -
fresh amateur faces -
fucking the help -
full porn pass -
fun with amber -
gag abuse -
gaya patal -
gay boys feet -
ghetto mania -
gogo auditions -
granny dolls -
handjob auditions -
handjob play -
happy hour girls -
her first gangbang -
her first pregnancy -
hs boys -
interracial society -
in the sex party -
jerk that cock bitch -
jism junkies -
jizz on my jugs -
josie and friends -
josie junior -
jug fuckers -
just sluts -
just us boys -
kat vixen -
kat young -
knocked up nelly -
knocked up nikki -
lady boy crush -
lanas fantasies -
lil sin -
little danni -
live 18 cam -
live cam buster -
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malezia -
manny the freak -
mano job -
mardi gras cuties -
midnight lurkers -
mom bang -
mommy got boobs -
moms assistant -
moms on tv -
muchachos -
my first cum bath -
my tight panties -
nana funk -
naughty allie -
naughty julie -
nina tv -
no way am i gay -
oral cravings -
playful jessica -
playing with toni -
power cam girls -
preggo abuse -
public nudity exposed -
pussy kat club -
quickie fuck -
racks and blacks -
rave glory hole -
raven riley -
real time videos -
samantha gauge -
security cam sex -
severe penetrations -
sexy shemales from brazil -
shelby belle -
shemales gone crazy -
slap that butt -
sleep invasion -
snatches -
spank hut -
spring break skin -
stunning angels -
suck it you whore -
sweet dominique -
sweet juliet -
teen sabrina -
teen stop -
the cam slut -
the cock zilla -
the dick suckers -
the hoes we choked -
the taste of brazilian ass -
tia sweet -
tokyo fuckfest -
totally tranny -
tranny abuse -
ultimate sex pass -
virgin college coeds -
voyeur instrusion -
wet wild and wasted -
whore abuse -
wild party whores -
wild time girls -
bookworm bitches -
2 crazy bitches -
acme porn -
amateur hunks -
am i straight -
angels with dildos -
ass lick boys -
baby got boobs -
bangin becky -
beach club cuties -
be the bitch -
big boob pass -
big tits at work -
bikini dream -
black dicks white chicks -
black with latin -
blowjob auditions -
bonus boy sites -
boys that gag -
brazil booty bangers -
brazilian bitches -
broke straight boys -
brooke skye -
busty alli -
busty and real -
camel toe auditions -
cam loader -
cam matrix -
cam monitor -
car show cuties -
casey hays -
cfnm exposed -
cfnm idol -
chelci fox -
classics of porn -
club strawberry -
college boy physicals -
crazy club chicks -
cream in teen -
cum on candi -
cum on her face -
cum troopers -
cunt abuse -
cute kimberly -
cute teen pink -
debbie teen -
drunk club cuties -
drunk on cam -
etu show -
facial mvp -
faith belle -
fiesta snatch -
forced to prostitute -
french fuck faces -
fresh amateur faces -
fucking the help -
full porn pass -
fun with amber -
gag abuse -
gaya patal -
gay boys feet -
ghetto mania -
gogo auditions -
granny dolls -
handjob auditions -
handjob play -
happy hour girls -
her first gangbang -
her first pregnancy -
hs boys -
interracial society -
in the sex party -
jerk that cock bitch -
jism junkies -
jizz on my jugs -
josie and friends -
josie junior -
jug fuckers -
just sluts -
just us boys -
kat vixen -
kat young -
knocked up nelly -
knocked up nikki -
lady boy crush -
lanas fantasies -
lil sin -
little danni -
live 18 cam -
live cam buster -
live chat adult -
live sex bunnys -
liz vicious -
male movie club -
malezia -
manny the freak -
mano job -
mardi gras cuties -
midnight lurkers -
mom bang -
mommy got boobs -
moms assistant -
moms on tv -
muchachos -
my first cum bath -
my tight panties -
nana funk -
naughty allie -
naughty julie -
nina tv -
no way am i gay -
oral cravings -
playful jessica -
playing with toni -
power cam girls -
preggo abuse -
public nudity exposed -
pussy kat club -
quickie fuck -
racks and blacks -
rave glory hole -
raven riley -
real time videos -
samantha gauge -
security cam sex -
severe penetrations -
sexy shemales from brazil -
shelby belle -
shemales gone crazy -
slap that butt -
sleep invasion -
snatches -
spank hut -
spring break skin -
stunning angels -
suck it you whore -
sweet dominique -
sweet juliet -
teen sabrina -
teen stop -
the cam slut -
the cock zilla -
the dick suckers -
the hoes we choked -
the taste of brazilian ass -
tia sweet -
tokyo fuckfest -
totally tranny -
tranny abuse -
ultimate sex pass -
virgin college coeds -
voyeur instrusion -
wet wild and wasted -
whore abuse -
wild party whores -
wild time girls -
college teens book bang -
2 crazy bitches -
acme porn -
amateur hunks -
am i straight -
angels with dildos -
ass lick boys -
baby got boobs -
bangin becky -
beach club cuties -
be the bitch -
big boob pass -
big tits at work -
bikini dream -
black dicks white chicks -
black with latin -
blowjob auditions -
bonus boy sites -
boys that gag -
brazil booty bangers -
brazilian bitches -
broke straight boys -
brooke skye -
busty alli -
busty and real -
camel toe auditions -
cam loader -
cam matrix -
cam monitor -
car show cuties -
casey hays -
cfnm exposed -
cfnm idol -
chelci fox -
classics of porn -
club strawberry -
college boy physicals -
crazy club chicks -
cream in teen -
cum on candi -
cum on her face -
cum troopers -
cunt abuse -
cute kimberly -
cute teen pink -
debbie teen -
drunk club cuties -
drunk on cam -
etu show -
facial mvp -
faith belle -
fiesta snatch -
forced to prostitute -
french fuck faces -
fresh amateur faces -
fucking the help -
full porn pass -
fun with amber -
gag abuse -
gaya patal -
gay boys feet -
ghetto mania -
gogo auditions -
granny dolls -
handjob auditions -
handjob play -
happy hour girls -
her first gangbang -
her first pregnancy -
hs boys -
interracial society -
in the sex party -
jerk that cock bitch -
jism junkies -
jizz on my jugs -
josie and friends -
josie junior -
jug fuckers -
just sluts -
just us boys -
kat vixen -
kat young -
knocked up nelly -
knocked up nikki -
lady boy crush -
lanas fantasies -
lil sin -
little danni -
live 18 cam -
live cam buster -
live chat adult -
live sex bunnys -
liz vicious -
male movie club -
malezia -
manny the freak -
mano job -
mardi gras cuties -
midnight lurkers -
mom bang -
mommy got boobs -
moms assistant -
moms on tv -
muchachos -
my first cum bath -
my tight panties -
nana funk -
naughty allie -
naughty julie -
nina tv -
no way am i gay -
oral cravings -
playful jessica -
playing with toni -
power cam girls -
preggo abuse -
public nudity exposed -
pussy kat club -
quickie fuck -
racks and blacks -
rave glory hole -
raven riley -
real time videos -
samantha gauge -
security cam sex -
severe penetrations -
sexy shemales from brazil -
shelby belle -
shemales gone crazy -
slap that butt -
sleep invasion -
snatches -
spank hut -
spring break skin -
stunning angels -
suck it you whore -
sweet dominique -
sweet juliet -
teen sabrina -
teen stop -
the cam slut -
the cock zilla -
the dick suckers -
the hoes we choked -
the taste of brazilian ass -
tia sweet -
tokyo fuckfest -
totally tranny -
tranny abuse -
ultimate sex pass -
virgin college coeds -
voyeur instrusion -
wet wild and wasted -
whore abuse -
wild party whores -
wild time girls -
couples seduce teens -
2 crazy bitches -
acme porn -
amateur hunks -
am i straight -
angels with dildos -
ass lick boys -
baby got boobs -
bangin becky -
beach club cuties -
be the bitch -
big boob pass -
big tits at work -
bikini dream -
black dicks white chicks -
black with latin -
blowjob auditions -
bonus boy sites -
boys that gag -
brazil booty bangers -
brazilian bitches -
broke straight boys -
brooke skye -
busty alli -
busty and real -
camel toe auditions -
cam loader -
cam matrix -
cam monitor -
car show cuties -
casey hays -
cfnm exposed -
cfnm idol -
chelci fox -
classics of porn -
club strawberry -
college boy physicals -
crazy club chicks -
cream in teen -
cum on candi -
cum on her face -
cum troopers -
cunt abuse -
cute kimberly -
cute teen pink -
debbie teen -
drunk club cuties -
drunk on cam -
etu show -
facial mvp -
faith belle -
fiesta snatch -
forced to prostitute -
french fuck faces -
fresh amateur faces -
fucking the help -
full porn pass -
fun with amber -
gag abuse -
gaya patal -
gay boys feet -
ghetto mania -
gogo auditions -
granny dolls -
handjob auditions -
handjob play -
happy hour girls -
her first gangbang -
her first pregnancy -
hs boys -
interracial society -
in the sex party -
jerk that cock bitch -
jism junkies -
jizz on my jugs -
josie and friends -
josie junior -
jug fuckers -
just sluts -
just us boys -
kat vixen -
kat young -
knocked up nelly -
knocked up nikki -
lady boy crush -
lanas fantasies -
lil sin -
little danni -
live 18 cam -
live cam buster -
live chat adult -
live sex bunnys -
liz vicious -
male movie club -
malezia -
manny the freak -
mano job -
mardi gras cuties -
midnight lurkers -
mom bang -
mommy got boobs -
moms assistant -
moms on tv -
muchachos -
my first cum bath -
my tight panties -
nana funk -
naughty allie -
naughty julie -
nina tv -
no way am i gay -
oral cravings -
playful jessica -
playing with toni -
power cam girls -
preggo abuse -
public nudity exposed -
pussy kat club -
quickie fuck -
racks and blacks -
rave glory hole -
raven riley -
real time videos -
samantha gauge -
security cam sex -
severe penetrations -
sexy shemales from brazil -
shelby belle -
shemales gone crazy -
slap that butt -
sleep invasion -
snatches -
spank hut -
spring break skin -
stunning angels -
suck it you whore -
sweet dominique -
sweet juliet -
teen sabrina -
teen stop -
the cam slut -
the cock zilla -
the dick suckers -
the hoes we choked -
the taste of brazilian ass -
tia sweet -
tokyo fuckfest -
totally tranny -
tranny abuse -
ultimate sex pass -
virgin college coeds -
voyeur instrusion -
wet wild and wasted -
whore abuse -
wild party whores -
wild time girls -
euro sex parties -
2 crazy bitches -
acme porn -
amateur hunks -
am i straight -
angels with dildos -
ass lick boys -
baby got boobs -
bangin becky -
beach club cuties -
be the bitch -
big boob pass -
big tits at work -
bikini dream -
black dicks white chicks -
black with latin -
blowjob auditions -
bonus boy sites -
boys that gag -
brazil booty bangers -
brazilian bitches -
broke straight boys -
brooke skye -
busty alli -
busty and real -
camel toe auditions -
cam loader -
cam matrix -
cam monitor -
car show cuties -
casey hays -
cfnm exposed -
cfnm idol -
chelci fox -
classics of porn -
club strawberry -
college boy physicals -
crazy club chicks -
cream in teen -
cum on candi -
cum on her face -
cum troopers -
cunt abuse -
cute kimberly -
cute teen pink -
debbie teen -
drunk club cuties -
drunk on cam -
etu show -
facial mvp -
faith belle -
fiesta snatch -
forced to prostitute -
french fuck faces -
fresh amateur faces -
fucking the help -
full porn pass -
fun with amber -
gag abuse -
gaya patal -
gay boys feet -
ghetto mania -
gogo auditions -
granny dolls -
handjob auditions -
handjob play -
happy hour girls -
her first gangbang -
her first pregnancy -
hs boys -
interracial society -
in the sex party -
jerk that cock bitch -
jism junkies -
jizz on my jugs -
josie and friends -
josie junior -
jug fuckers -
just sluts -
just us boys -
kat vixen -
kat young -
knocked up nelly -
knocked up nikki -
lady boy crush -
lanas fantasies -
lil sin -
little danni -
live 18 cam -
live cam buster -
live chat adult -
live sex bunnys -
liz vicious -
male movie club -
malezia -
manny the freak -
mano job -
mardi gras cuties -
midnight lurkers -
mom bang -
mommy got boobs -
moms assistant -
moms on tv -
muchachos -
my first cum bath -
my tight panties -
nana funk -
naughty allie -
naughty julie -
nina tv -
no way am i gay -
oral cravings -
playful jessica -
playing with toni -
power cam girls -
preggo abuse -
public nudity exposed -
pussy kat club -
quickie fuck -
racks and blacks -
rave glory hole -
raven riley -
real time videos -
samantha gauge -
security cam sex -
severe penetrations -
sexy shemales from brazil -
shelby belle -
shemales gone crazy -
slap that butt -
sleep invasion -
snatches -
spank hut -
spring break skin -
stunning angels -
suck it you whore -
sweet dominique -
sweet juliet -
teen sabrina -
teen stop -
the cam slut -
the cock zilla -
the dick suckers -
the hoes we choked -
the taste of brazilian ass -
tia sweet -
tokyo fuckfest -
totally tranny -
tranny abuse -
ultimate sex pass -
virgin college coeds -
voyeur instrusion -
wet wild and wasted -
whore abuse -
wild party whores -
wild time girls -
gangbang squad -
2 crazy bitches -
acme porn -
amateur hunks -
am i straight -
angels with dildos -
ass lick boys -
baby got boobs -
bangin becky -
beach club cuties -
be the bitch -
big boob pass -
big tits at work -
bikini dream -
black dicks white chicks -
black with latin -
blowjob auditions -
bonus boy sites -
boys that gag -
brazil booty bangers -
brazilian bitches -
broke straight boys -
brooke skye -
busty alli -
busty and real -
camel toe auditions -
cam loader -
cam matrix -
cam monitor -
car show cuties -
casey hays -
cfnm exposed -
cfnm idol -
chelci fox -
classics of porn -
club strawberry -
college boy physicals -
crazy club chicks -
cream in teen -
cum on candi -
cum on her face -
cum troopers -
cunt abuse -
cute kimberly -
cute teen pink -
debbie teen -
drunk club cuties -
drunk on cam -
etu show -
facial mvp -
faith belle -
fiesta snatch -
forced to prostitute -
french fuck faces -
fresh amateur faces -
fucking the help -
full porn pass -
fun with amber -
gag abuse -
gaya patal -
gay boys feet -
ghetto mania -
gogo auditions -
granny dolls -
handjob auditions -
handjob play -
happy hour girls -
her first gangbang -
her first pregnancy -
hs boys -
interracial society -
in the sex party -
jerk that cock bitch -
jism junkies -
jizz on my jugs -
josie and friends -
josie junior -
jug fuckers -
just sluts -
just us boys -
kat vixen -
kat young -
knocked up nelly -
knocked up nikki -
lady boy crush -
lanas fantasies -
lil sin -
little danni -
live 18 cam -
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real drunken boys -
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screaming o -
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she need pussy -
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solo stunners -
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