posted by Helen at 8:07 AM
Monday, December 10, 2007
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34 Comments:
I don't think this is that big of a deal. College is the time to be doing stupid things. It could be a lot worse.
JG,
I think that it goes beyond stupidity. It sets up the next fame-seeking suicidal young person with a sense of entitlement that says that taking others with you is okay. That's a very destructive message to send. I could see perhaps having the morality of an alley cat (and even then, it's important to learn it) when one is two or three but by the time one is 20, morality should be inherent.
Sounds like the intro to a Rob Zombie song...
No (speakable) comment.
It is really chilling that his friend doesn't "think any the less of him." It's so comforting that he didn't do it for fun, but to go out in style. And there's their morality: Life is cheap and meaningless; death as a celebrity is better than a quiet, honorable life. Short of becoming a skanky pop diva how does one get famous these days?
They hit the nail right on the head at the end: when parents put the raising of their children (and their subsequent moral development) in the hands of educators, many of whom are afraid to say anything to offend anyone lest they be sued or fired ("liberal", my ass), they're going to get a "no fault" view of the entire world. They're taught that not only do you not have a right to not be offended, but you have a duty to try to offend other people, to "challenge" their viewpoints. While I can agree that people need to lighten up and stop taking EVERYTHING so seriously, the second point crosses the line. Purposely offending someone for your own amusement or to prove a point is the direct opposite of common decency. You can be frank about your views and still be an inherently good person.
These kids are just disrespectful little punks.
Regarding the comment by Barash and Webel, so if I kill all the loony lefty professors I've had over the years, I'm not a "monster", I'm a "liberator".
The possibilities are endless!!
I think it is true that young folk like to show how adult they are by acting out as foolishly as possible. Many of us did some profoundly dumb things in college. I know I did.
But I never, ever made fun of people who have been shot to death.
We live in a post-ironic age these days. I seem to remember Bill Maher wearing a "Crocodile Hunter" Halloween outfit with a sting ray spine coming out of his chest. Tasteless and rude. And many people laughed about it in the classes I teach.
Part of it is the asymmetrical approach to life of our youth today: most college age students (apologies to college students who are NOT like this) demand great sensitivity to their interests, but want the freedom to be blunt beyond words toward others.
They call it "honesty," which I believe that they confuse with "tactlessness."
Again, I suspect a great deal of toxic narcissism and lack of empathy. "Generation Me," in other words.
Hopefully, they will grow out of it, and be ashamed. later. After all, these images are FOREVER.
Dr. Helen, if this were an x-rated blog, and if I were less of the gentleman my mom attempted to raise, I'd have to say that the UPenn students and the friends of Hawkins who think he decided to merely "go out in style" are a bunch of SICK #@)$@*.
GM Roper
I agree with gm roper, these folks a bunch sickos, but I also think that entirely too much is being made of it in the media. This was the bad judgement of a couple of college students, offensive - yes; destructive - no.
The quote by Hawkins friend about going "out in style" is horribly amazing. There was no style in Hawkins' actions, just murderous insanity.
It's repulsive that the Penn State students can't realize the crude insensitivity of their costumes and calling it "trendy" to be upset about the murder of friends. Disgusting.
There is a major difference, which this article elides, between mocking the dead and the idiot who respects a murderer.
That elision (neatly covered by an in-page advert) is why this article is worthless. It tries to conflate two entirely different things - Ironic (and often offensive) off-shoring of horrible realities such as mocking, and sociopathy such as lauding the murderer..
I'm going to go out on a limb and defend these kids.
Would this be a costume I'd choose? Probably not. But we are talking about 2 kids out of a college population that numbers in the millions. Who are we to determine the compassion level of everyone else? It isn't up to anyone to demand others to meet other people's highly judgemental standards on how to act, what to write and what to wear on Halloween. If someone wears a questionable costume how does it affect anyone else? What some shlub in Pennsylvania or Prince Harry wears for a costume hardly makes any impact on me or my little world, and probably not anyone else's either.
Costume choice fall clearly under freedom of expression.
Cham,
"Costume choice fall clearly under freedom of expression."
Yes, it does. However, my observation that their judgement is poor and leads to societal problems also falls under freedom of expression too.
Actually, Cham, with all due respect: costume choice on a college campus decidedly does *not* fall in the area of freedom of expression. Several fraternities have learned, for example, that "blackface" parties are not acceptable on college campuses.
But here is the important question, and I mean it respectfully: do you feel that *anything* a student wears under these conditions is above reproach? If you have no limits, at all, you are consistent...but such an approach is, again, not followed on a college campus.
The problem is that we cannot legislate good taste and manners, and many parents no longer teach it at home.
Oh well. To each their own. But I wonder how the parents of kids killed at Virginia Tech feel about it. And the relevant point is why that didn't occur to the students.
Again, you cannot legislate good taste, let alone a sense of humanity and empathy. Or proportion.
But that's just my opinion. The sad part is that the students will find, later on, that the workplace will not respect their free expression quite as much as a campus...and that will be a hard lesson, even if deserved.
I've seen it many times at my campus. The students who mock dead Americans, also protest the deaths of non-Americans.
This is the pop culture form of the Ward Churchill "chickens coming home to roost" speech.
On the standard liberal/academic view, Americans are different. It's funny (even virtuous) to kill the white, imperialistic, patriarchal oppressor. It's OK to offend American sensibilities after a tragedy: Americans are privileged. They can take it. Enlightened Americans hate Americans.
Balderdash.
IMHO, the law should allow a man to punch people in the mouth every once in a while. This is one of those times.
Everyone is free to choose their clothing or their costume. We are all able to draw conclusions about those choices. But if one feels they need to walk down the street in a costume of a dead person or a nazi, that should be their right to do so. Jeff would like a law on the books to make it okay to punch them instead. We could be like Sudan and give people unlimited lashings when they do something that somebody else doesn't like. To heck with the constitution.
Dear Cham:
I don't mean to snark or be critical or anything. I just want you to try an experiment. Make yourself a T-shirt that says: I SUPPORT THE WAR on the front, and I LOVE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY on the back.
Wear it on campus for a week. Go to some classes and use the library. Talk to some people in the cafeteria.
Record what happens.
That is *much* milder than going to a party in a costume that mocks students murdered in cold blood by a lunatic.
Anyway, you will find that your don't truly have freedom of expression.
On second thought, please don't try my experiment. You might get roughed up or have the university police give you a bad time.
Oh no! College Students Mocking Serious Things! That NEVER happens!!!1one!
EVARRR!!
Hell, it's probably the only thing they can mock, given the PC totalitarians that run campuses these days. Have a "gangsta" themed party and you are a racist and worthy of having your life ruined. Nevermind that the popular culture that makes money selling the gangsta image to the white kids that held the party. It's just what inspired them.
Good thing none of them was carrying a NOOSE!!!11!!!!!ELEVEN!! the latest PC taboo item imbued with talismanic racist power.
We had a Come as a Dead Celebrity party when I was younger. Extra points were awarded for creative tastelessness. If Cho had been a contemporary, someone would have come as him and claimed he was famous now after the shooting spree. He might have won.
You people getting the vapors over this need to get a grip.
Sgt Ted,
Do the words "too soon" mean anything to you? I don't give a damn if someone wants to make light of a situation a while after it happens - Harry's Nazi armband is an instance of this - but the VA Tech shootings happened less than a year ago, and the families of the victims are still probably a little raw over it. In 5 or 10 years...yeah, whatever. It won't be "shocking pop culture" any more, but it won't be as much of a blatant slap in the face, either. As I said in my earlier comment, I don't believe that people don't have the right to not be offended (meaning, if you're offended by something, too bad, because that's life), but blatant disrespect such as this is a little over the line.
I quite frankly don't care. It will always be "too soon" for some people.
Just remember, Sgt Ted, that statements like you have made invite kharma. So please be sure that you wouldn't mind if people made a joke of having your brother, daughter, or father shot to death by a nutjob.
I understand your "get a grip" mentality. But our culture, as you observe, needs to work on having a sense of proportion. Let alone empathy.
I'm not trying to fight. I am just surprised at asymmetry in boundaries. You may be very different than most people. But many people claim to be quite rough and tough, and then demand great sensitivity toward things about which they care deeply.
Mass murder of innocent people tends to be one of those things.
I certainly agree with you that PC culture is insane. But this is a bit worse than that...though you certainly have a right to your opinion.
Just remember, Sgt Ted, that statements like you have made invite kharma
Link plz?
I would never have expected such a response as what I have read from you on this particular thread, sgt. ted.
Although my daughter was unharmed in that terrible instance at Tech, she was walking by the hall as it was occurring, hearing gunshots and screaming, the authorities moving in. A Honda Accord with 7 students in it screached to a halt beside her, yelling for her to get in. She had early classes that day, and was in between classes, knowing nothing of what was going on. She jumped in the car through the window, feet hanging out as the car sped off toward safety. It affected her. It changed her forever. She doesn't feel safe anywhere, and rarely travels alone in daylight, and never alone at night.
I can't imagine how students who experienced friends and acquaintances die in front of them must feel. No where to run, no way to protect themselves. Or the parents of the children lost.
I've heard a lot of bullshit from a lot of people about what they would have done, what others should have done. Conveniently, none of them were there. We live in a nation of Monday morning quarterbacks and back seat drivers.
A lunatic with two blazing pistols standing at the doorway, the only way out. I have wished I were there, and could have killed him myself, with my bare hands. But I would most likely have died in a hail of bullets also.
I'm thinking you are drunk for these posts you recently made. I hope so.
I've been thru combat. I've had friends blown up and killed. Stone cold sober.
Two college kids dressing as dead Americans wouldn't bug me. I consider the source and their age. I remember how I was at that age.
Plus...
They did it at a party. A private costume party. I'll bet they got laughs. They didn't do it at VT or a memorial. They aren't the killer. I'm seeing outrage like theyre the killer or somesuch.
I save my outrage for actual criminals or those who actually injure people on purpose. Or kill crowds of people. Or want to run my life for me.
Injured feelings? Not so much.
Sorry BR I have my flaws too.
sgt. ted:
OK. And thank you.
I know you have seen combat, and I thank you for your service. Although simply saying "thank you for your service" doesn't really cut it. I do not know how to contact you via private e-mail, so I say this here.
And about flaws, outside of my rugged good looks, boyish charm, and naturally curly hair, I am as flawed as a Yugo.
Sgt ted is correct.
Trying to regulate humor in these Jon Stewart/ Stephen Colbert days is unlikely to succeed. Either you have to let all the "pain" in and ignore the sensitivities of some being mocked, or you start giving in to those who would censor our crude culture. Not going to happen.
Remember, this was a private party and likely none of the guests was at VT. That the pictures got out and unintentionally were delivered to those grieving can just be chalked up to the media age. But we can't start hand-selecting which topics are off limits for humor, and which are appropriate to insult.
Christians learned that long ago with the Piss Christ and Mary dung. Humor is art, and art is allowed. It's when you carve off exceptions for "special victims" that you run into trouble censoring thoughts.
Mary,
Or as one of the commenters noted above, blackface is art too and should be allowed. Tell that to the University of Tennessee where a fraternity was suspended for doing so. You seem to only have it in for Christians and gunowners. I agree that special victims should not be given exceptions in terms of censorship. Tell that to our universities the next time someone makes fun of blacks, women or some other special victim that they think no one can mock.
If you are going to censor costumes then it is probably best to eliminate Halloween celebrations altogther. A university can't say no to murder victim costumes but Batman is okay. Robin may not be okay because rumor is that he was gay. Blackface is out, but Nixon masks are approved, wait, Nixon lied so that isn't okay either. Cat costumes and french maids are out because they are too slutty. You can't legislate this, way too complicated.
You seem to only have it in for Christians and gunowners
???????
I support Christians and gunowners? And free speech protections, including blackface, criticism of women and minorities.
I also believe in federalism, psychological background checks for those purchasing handguns, and self defense.
But I am skeptical of gunowners who shoot in the middle of the night out of fear rather than self defense (see Florida for ripe picking of those incidents), those who would urge no restrictions -- anywhere -- on anyone who wants to buy a firearm based on "indidividual rights". Some individuals who clearly can't handle the responsibility (felons) and have a history of mental illness should not have a right to carry.
Sorry Helen, but you like to cherry pick instead of having robust conversation where feelings might get hurt. Those p.c. standards will "dumb down" arguments and prevent good people from grappling with many sides of an issue.
So some college kids tried for the most outrageous costume. Perspective, please. They didn't trick-or-treat at the dead students' homes, and Halloween is seen by many as a time to be offensive. We can express disproval, sure, but generally, "I don't think this is that big of a deal. College is the time to be doing stupid things. It could be a lot worse."
You're reaaaaaaaasaalllly reaching here: I think that it goes beyond stupidity. It sets up the next fame-seeking suicidal young person with a sense of entitlement that says that taking others with you is okay. That's a very destructive message to send.
Healthy people don't kill because of an outrageous Halloween costume.
Um...I don't expect healthy people kill, at all, except in war or in the defense of themselves or others. Well, okay, there are accidents.
The problem is that there are so many unhealthy people out there with guns.
Exactly vicki.
Healthy people don't kills because of a Halloween costume, heavy metal song, or violent movie.
And it's probably not wise to spend a minute worrying about preventing offense to an unhealthy person bent on killing others. The problem is theirs, not that of the college students who overstepped the p.c. bounds and created a crude and distasteful costume.
Like with the dung and piss on the Christian religious figures, we have to tolerate the crap to be assured that other ideas, voices and artwork will not be stifled. Most of that style "message" art is crap, but we can't start cherry-picking who's "big enough" to face insult, and who needs to be protected from offense.
That's how I understand America anyway, but you have to be careful not to be accused of hating on the Christians if you tolerate and ignore such "art". Christians are still pretty new to the anti-defamation game, I think.
mary:
Out of curiosity, I am wondering why you do not allow those out walking their dogs, so to speak, to leave droppings on you yard. You go to other yards with your dog, and leave droppings.
Open up the comments to your posts on your blog. Don't you think that would be fun?
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