Office Mate or Bad Date?
So the mistletoe is going up and the office Christmas parties are starting to organize. You've had your eye on the cute man or woman down the hall and you figure what better way to get to know them than over the office copy machine--uh, make that at the boss's house during the holiday party--hopefully, you are single while considering this. Office romance, good idea or bad? That depends, according to a new book entitled Office Mate: The Employee Handbook for Finding--and Managing--Romance on the Job.
The authors of the book, Helaine Olen and Stephanie Losee, are experienced office daters, having met their husbands on the job, and they offer numerous tips for those considering a relationship at the office. Many people are appalled by office dating to which Ms. Losee responds:
Uhh, maybe it's because you're afraid of being charged with sexual harassment or creating a hostile work environment, particularly if you are a guy--but even women have that problem. So the book addresses that concern with a recommendation: "Don't violate sexual harassment law." Then they proceed to tell you how--sort of.
They explain the types of behavior that qualify as sexual harassment under federal law and state that repeated requests for romance are no-nos. They also note that the law defines sexual harassment by the way the victim perceives it, not the way that the harasser does. Okay, but this seems quite unfair, what if we decided that people could just be found guilty because someone "felt" that they had been robbed? Why is it that due process seems to fly out the window where sexual harassment or domestic violence issues are concerned. I'll give you three guesses but if you are a regular reader of this blog, you will know the answer.
Anyway, after reading all this, if you are still considering an office romance, this book is definitely worth a read if you want some excellent tips on how to woo an office mate. You can also learn why it is a mistake to reject someone by email, what to do if your ex breaks your heart and you have to slink into the office anyway, and what to do when your workplace is a romantic wasteland.
Just as an aside, has anyone out there had an office romance? If so, how did it work out? Or if you haven't, did a sexual harassment charge play a part in your decision not to date at the office?
The authors of the book, Helaine Olen and Stephanie Losee, are experienced office daters, having met their husbands on the job, and they offer numerous tips for those considering a relationship at the office. Many people are appalled by office dating to which Ms. Losee responds:
...You can surf the Internet and hook up with complete strangers. You can let some dude in a bar pick you up. But you can't turn to that cute man in the cubicle next to yours--the guy you know really well, the guy you've been working with for months, the guy who's been vetted by Human Resources--and let him know you're interested because it's appalling?
Uhh, maybe it's because you're afraid of being charged with sexual harassment or creating a hostile work environment, particularly if you are a guy--but even women have that problem. So the book addresses that concern with a recommendation: "Don't violate sexual harassment law." Then they proceed to tell you how--sort of.
They explain the types of behavior that qualify as sexual harassment under federal law and state that repeated requests for romance are no-nos. They also note that the law defines sexual harassment by the way the victim perceives it, not the way that the harasser does. Okay, but this seems quite unfair, what if we decided that people could just be found guilty because someone "felt" that they had been robbed? Why is it that due process seems to fly out the window where sexual harassment or domestic violence issues are concerned. I'll give you three guesses but if you are a regular reader of this blog, you will know the answer.
Anyway, after reading all this, if you are still considering an office romance, this book is definitely worth a read if you want some excellent tips on how to woo an office mate. You can also learn why it is a mistake to reject someone by email, what to do if your ex breaks your heart and you have to slink into the office anyway, and what to do when your workplace is a romantic wasteland.
Just as an aside, has anyone out there had an office romance? If so, how did it work out? Or if you haven't, did a sexual harassment charge play a part in your decision not to date at the office?
Labels: Christmas gifts for cute co-workers, interesting books
posted by Helen at 6:30 PM
74 Comments:
The problem is not working with someone you date; it's working with someone you used to date.
*adjusts his belt*
ayup. I'm gonna have ta chime in thar with cf. Fallout's a bear. The rest is just dandy and scarcely a problem at all.
Fear of harassment charges in this paranoid age have deterred me. Imagine having have to explain to my girlfriend that I'm up on charges. Then my girlfriend and my wife are both angry with me...
Where I work a few couple have dated and at least two married. I wouldn't dream of it, unless it was a nightmare. Too many risks and there are plenty of women other places. And, the old adage certainly seems true, most of the good ones are taken. (It only makes sense, though.)
hey dr. helen, I'm back!
took a break from the blogging world for a while, but check out my new site... I am a little more libertarian now, which I think you might appreciate.
~Will Conway
the former Falling Dominos,
now, Regarding: Liberty
I wonder if they cover body language?
Women have an advantage in body language as there are several common body language cues translatable as "I'm sexy: Please approach me."
I agree. The problem is not, primarily, in the dating, it is in the no-longer-together.
I dated someone I worked with in an office environment, many moons ago. I was not her direct boss, but was in a different position that paid more. We dated (once) and her attitude at work immediately changed. She no longer felt the need to be cooperative with me or do as I asked, if I needed some help from her, or needed a task to be completed - that prior to our first and only date, was part of her job description. So we never dated again. I became a "prick" all of a sudden, and a target of her anger. Soon after she left.
I made a mistake, but that is all I understand about the change in our working relationship after "the date". For she and me, it was not a good idea to have dated, be it only once. I do not socialize with anyone in my places of work, outside of the office. Male or female.
JW,
While the book does not seem to specifically address body language, there is a chapter on how to indicate interest with some recommendations such as keeping it verbal and taking no for an answer. If you want to ask someone out for coffee, they say to actually ask, don't assume and make room for rejection if the person does not want to go. It seems there is a fine line between between asking for a date and being a stalker, one that many people do not want to attempt.
Will,
Hi, glad to see you back.
When I first got into the work force many years ago I made the mistake of dating someone who worked in a different department at the other end of a very large building. It didn't work out, I dumped him and moved on. He didn't handle it well and proceeded to start several nasty rumors about me. Never again.
Hi Helen
I married my office date.
I paint in my spare time and had some of my art hanging in my cubicle. Tamara walked by, noticed it and commented that she liked my artwork, and introduced herself. As she walked away, I wanted to get to know her better. That started a somewhat quiet courtship that culminated in our marriage earlier this year. A few people in the office looked at me afterward and said, "You have a ring! When did you get married? Who is she?" And when I told them, they looked at me in shock because they had no idea.
Interestingly, we're in the same department. My manager's manager is her manager's manager's manager. No one said anything to us. Kudos to the company for good policy.
We work for a huge mortgage company that you've heard of. I know of other husband/wife pairs who work for our company. I don't know if they met on the job as we did, but it's nice to be in a company that doesn't try to deter that sort of thing. I think they respect that we're all adults and can handle ourselves professionally.
Don't get your honey where you get your money.
I once asked the personnel director where I worked how short a mini-skirt had to be before it could be considered sexual harrassment. After all, the women is TRYING to look hot and may even succeed. That is the problem with broadcasting I'm-trying-to-look-attractive cues. The cue broadcaster loses control over who is attracted and has to reject, sometimes forcefully, the unwanted attracted. I refer to this as bait-and-bash.
I met my husband at work. We were the same level in the same department, but I was there longer so had a slightly higher pay. When he started, I actually trained him (but not as a superior - just to show him the ropes). A month later, we started dating.
When we started living together, I transferred out of the department because he wasn't with the company long enough to transfer himself. I told my boss I was looking outside the department and he asked me why. I told him it was because "co-worker" and I moved in together and I didn't want to bring any future problems we may have at home into the work environment. I guess most people don't do that anymore, because my boss was SHOCKED and sad to see me bid out. The relationship is still as strong as ever. We'll be celebrating our 11th anniversary in March and we have had very few problems. :-)
At least one organization within the US government that I am aware of encourages dating within the ranks among employees with security clearances. This is discussed specifically during new employee orientation.
I actually gave my girlfriend a heads-up on a job opening at my company, and she got the job! (We agreed we wouldn't mention anything about our relationship to our respective bosses until after she was hired to avoid anything that looked improper.) We did work in different departments though, but we did get to see each other every day for lunch. It didn't work out, but we're still friends.
I disagree with some of the people here. There is certainly a problem when you are dating someone at work. The perception by others of favoritism or collusion is disruptive, and weakens morale.
This comment has been removed by the author.
One of the best Company Christmas Party Meltdowns I've ever heard of involved a guy in my department who had dated one girl in the office while on the outs with another girl in the office.
Nothing like having two drunk women publicly discuss when you last bedded them to take you down a peg. I don't remember which girl won, but he definitely lost. "Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered" as my dad would say.
You should never date in the office. If things go bad, it's horrible. If things go well, it's even worse!
You risk being seen as unprofessional - simple proximity means that you're going to see your S.O. more often and you'll inherently seem clingy, solely due to the apparent frequency of contact. The enduring couple is then at serious financial risk, as both of their incomes and future prospects come from the same firm. Even a minor downturn or strategy change could see both of you out of work at the same time!
This is Helaine Olen, the co-author of Office Mate.
First, I want to thank everyone for an incredibly smart discussion about the topic.
I want to say when we wrote Office Mate, our goal was twofold. Yes, we wanted to point out why workplace romance can be so effective. But we also wanted to acknowledge reality.
The fact is workplace romance is incredibly common. Half of all of us will date a collegue at least once in the course of our careers. It's also a highly effective way to meet a mate -- the day you go out on a date with an office mate, you're running a one in five chance of ending up a long-term relationship with the guy or gal. Not bad odds, in our view.
Yes, there are dangers. Sexual harassment is one. The dreaded break-up is another. But clearly people know all this and they've decided the potential reward is worth the risk. So instead of hectoring them not to go on that date, it seemed to make more sense to us to tell them how to protect their paycheck when they date on the job. Banning the practice makes no sense. As a species, we tend to be quite resistant to social enginnering schemes, especially when we are told they are being done for our own good.
Last, triangle man can you tell me the federal government department that is encouraing dating between co-workers. I'd love to know.
I agree with the no couples working at the same company philosophy. I have seen both partners lose their jobs on the same day during layoffs.
But, worse for the company, it does hurt moral of the other employees. When asked for feedback on a "coupled" employee, one is much more hesitant to be frank as a double whammy retribution may occur.
I've also seen half of a married couple have an intra-office affair. Talk about embarrassing!
One huge reason you should not attempt to ask someone on a date (or out and out try to get sex at work) is the risk of rejection. If the person says, "no thanks," this will cause resentment, but you cannot simply walk away and brush it off as in the rest of life. Now you have to be reminded of of it every single day, all day long, for as long as you are employed at this company. Not to mention all the other problems.
Personally, from my decades of experience I have found it best to not even make eye contact, much less have any discussion at all with female employees. One thing that is guaranteed is that women in the workplace are not going to be actually interested in their job, but only in interpersonal relationships, seeing the workplace as nothing more than just another backdrop for their never ending soap opera in their minds, then creating problems out of nothing for no other reason than to gain attention like a child.
Combine this with INSANE sexual harassment laws that have gotten so out of hand, that the very defintion of sexual harassment is impossible to even determine. It can be anything, not to mention the huge black cloud of constant sations by women anyway.
Women have turned the workplace into a nightmare world of mistrust, hate, misery, and fraud.
Hi Helaine,
I found the book to be a real reality check for what to do (or not do) if you want to date in the office. Your book explained well with good examples of how to handle oneself in a office romance situation. I do think, however, that dating for some in the office might have some drawbacks that are not worth the risk.
Thanks so much for stopping by and for writing the book, it is informative, fun and provides guidelines for anyone who wants to date at work.
Somehow this topic never came up on either of the submarines I served on.
Great post!
I have to say Reality2007 hit it right on the mark. In the new world of work, the workplace must be 100.000% asexual, you are not allowed to notice someone, not allowed to comment on someone and certainly not allowed to talk to someone about anything that can remotely be considered even 1% sexual when taken out of context by a jury. Anything else is simply placing yourself at risk and it is used against you by aggressive women who use all the weapons at their disposal to move ahead.
In my workplace the unofficial policy adopted by all men is to never be alone with a woman. If you need to speak to one, the office door must remain open or a coworker must be in the room. Failure to do so results in a he said/she said situation. Fortunately offices are becoming a thing of the past and cubicles don't have doors so the situation is not as difficult as it was.
The idea of dating someone at work is a massive risk in todays legal climate, you are quite literally placing your future in someone else's hands.
Last, triangle man can you tell me the federal government department that is encouraing dating between co-workers. I'd love to know.
That would be NSA. I'm sure you can guess their reasons.
"...people know all this and they've decided the potential reward is worth the risk."
These 'people' are obviously not men, because we have far more to lose than a woman.
"Banning the practice makes no sense."
Well that's just too bad. Women have created this nightmare= make bed, lie in it. Women actually need to be seperated from men in the workplace because they are too insane to interact with men.
"As a species, we tend to be quite resistant to social enginnering schemes, especially when we are told they are being done for our own good."
True, but you are just going to have to live with this nightmare women have created for everyone- just one more reason why women do not even belong in the workplace at all. Women are the ones who have made everything ugly, hateful, and made everyone mistrust one another and have made themselves appear as nothing but deviant, amoral lawsuit happy oppurtunists, making fraudulant accusations at every turn for financial gain.
So as a woman, don't you preach to me, because the rules, laws, and life itself is COMPLETELY different for you.
YOU may live in a "cutesy-cutesy" world of teddy bears and la-ti-da, "everything-is-so-wonderful-in-my-life-this-is-my-biggest-problem" questions to dear Abbey, but I don't.. I'm a MAN.
unreality2007, get thee to a shrink, stat!
Or maybe to Saudi Arabia, where you won't have to deal with all those lovestruck, icky girls who fantasize constantly about ensnaring you in their passionate trap! (snicker)
Signed,
A girl who actually worked for the paycheck, benefits and interesting work, and not to hit on the hot police officers and firefighters she worked with on occasion (really....took to heart my mom & dad's warning about not sh@tting where you eat.....)
P.S. Real men don't need to advertise "I'm a man!" in capital letters.
Well, one upside I found from office romance is that it gives you a nickname that sticks for life. See, there was this lady who, to finish off the inevitable public meltdown which results when women eventually clue in that I am, in fact, not actually the perfect boyfriend, eventually sputtered out to a halt after about 20 minutes of her calling me the worst insults she could think of and me agreeing wholeheartedly because they were all true (boy, women really hate it when men agree with them instead of fighting when they're supposed to, don't they?) with "YOU'RE SUCH A ... A ... A TROLL!!!"
Not only did the assembled staff audience all but have a collective heart attack laughing at the time, it's now 11 years later -- 9 years after the demise of that company, no less -- and nobody has come up with a nickname before or since that's stuck to me like "The Troll."
"Or maybe to Saudi Arabia, where you won't have to deal with all those lovestruck, icky girls who fantasize constantly about ensnaring you in their passionate trap! (snicker)"
You mean 'icky' as in the typical American female today? You mean the VD-ridden (1 in 4 U.S. women have Herpes just for starters), tramped-stamped, back-stabbing skanks who have 'slept' with everything in their zip code, and have all the charm of an open sewer, with no corresponding intelligence to the world in which they live? (Just like you possibly?) *Sigh* If you and they don't want me sexually, somehow I guess I'll have to pick up the pieces and somehow find the courage to live another day.
"fantasize constantly about ensnaring you in their passionate trap."
No, as in going to work for a company with the sole intention of filing a fraudulant lawsuit for personal financial gain.
"P.S. Real men don't need to advertise "I'm a man!" in capital letters.
rap! (snicker)"
P.S. You just said you were a female. So that means you do not what it is like to be a man, much less a 'real' one. (snicker)
Why is it that due process seems to fly out the window where sexual harassment or domestic violence issues are concerned.
Because the "victims" got to write the rules?
You mean the VD-ridden (1 in 4 U.S. women have Herpes just for starters), tramped-stamped, back-stabbing skanks who have 'slept' with everything in their zip code, and have all the charm of an open sewer, with no corresponding intelligence to the world in which they live? (Just like you possibly?)
Ah, kind sir, flattery will get you *everywhere*.
I can see you are one of those rare types who use their personality (or lack thereof) as the most reliable form of birth control known to humanity.
Hate to burst your bubble, but no....can't say that you've described me at all. Try again, sweetheart.
Although, my husband did nearly sputter his lunch all over his keyboard at your "description" of the mother of his son. I haven't seen him laugh so hard in a while, so thank you again, unreality2007!
And yes, although I am not a man, I worked alongside plenty of 'em, unless you think somehow that cops and firefighters don't qualify. And not a single one of those guys ever had to resort to capital letters to assure the world of their masculinity.
Wimpy little guys stuck in cubicles who spend their time with semi-pornographic "fantasy art" featuring goddesses, aliens, and unicorns, however....yep, seen them do that all the blessed time. Like you, possibly??
Definitely, do not ever give a compliment on clothing or looks to any woman in your company younger than your mother.
Do not wink at anyone. I used to have the habit of winking in greeting when I was on the phone or otherwise engaged and couldn't say 'hi'. Now I just ignore people. After the winking trouble I began noting when women winked at me. All of them do it, except possibly one who I have not noticed doing it yet. Winking is a normal form of communication with a lot of possible meanings, most of them not sexual.
Two complaints of harassment later, I walk on eggshells with every woman in the company. I would never ever think of dating any of them, even if I were not happily married.
I guess what bothers me the most is the behavior of the women, who can pretty much dress as they please and say whatever they like about men, post nude male pictures in their cubicles, wink etc.
The men just ignore it all and get on with work. What really annoys me is being accused of harassing when I had no intent at all of flirting or heaven forbid actually asking one of these women out.
Wow, some serious cynicism in these comments. I met and married my spouse at my old workplace. Off the top of my head, I can think of a dozen other couples I knew well who met and married at the same company, and probably many more I didn't even know about. It probably helped that it was a large company (over a thousand people at our facility alone) with departments ranging from R&D to manufacturing to sales and after-sales support, and everything in-between, and my husband and I worked for completely unrelated departments when we met. At least half of my social life was based around work, and I was far from alone. There didn't seem to be a pervasive fear of merely interacting normally with your opposite sex co-workers, thank God. In fact, it was the kind of place where people built lifetime relationships. To give you an idea, I recently went to a funeral of a coworker from that company (who, incidentally, had also met and married someone from the company). She hadn't worked there for probably five years, and yet there were literally hundreds of old coworkers there, both to honor her and to support her husband and son.
The funny thing is that I initially had a "rule" that I didn't date coworkers. It was convenient to ward off unwanted advances - until I met someone I was interested in. Thankfully this particular person (and most other men I worked with) weren't terrified of unwarranted sexual harrassment claims. What sad places many of the commenters must work in, to live in such fear.
So what if it hadn't worked out? I've been in situations before where I still had to interact with someone when it didn't work out and managed to survive just fine, so it probably would have been fine here too.
"I can see you are one of those rare types who use their personality (or lack thereof) as the most reliable form of birth control known to humanity."
With an adult daughter & son, and having had/ and have more sex than your 'husband' will ever have, looks like your 'theory' is wrong, like everything else about you.
"Hate to burst your bubble, but no....can't say that you've described me at all. Try again, sweetheart."
Unless you live outside the U.S., my description may not be exact, but it's close enough for practical purposes.
"And not a single one of those guys ever had to resort to capital letters to assure the world of their masculinity."
Go back and read the post. If you have a reading comprehension level above the 3rd grade (which I'll have to assume you don't) you'll notice I wrote 'I'm a MAN' not to 'assure the the world of my masculinity.' Everyone else here (who is obviously far more intelligent than yourself) can comprehend that it was put in caps to drive home the vastly different circumstances that genders face. Like a typical female, you are 'projecting.' Husband having a few masculinity doubts? Hmmm?
"Wimpy little guys stuck in cubicles who spend their time with semi-pornographic "fantasy art" featuring goddesses, aliens, and unicorns, however....yep, seen them do that all the blessed time. Like you, possibly??"
Again, 'projecting.' I don't know anyone like this, but obviously it descibes someone YOU know. Maybe the guy you cheated on your husband with? Hmm?
Alright, this is too easy. Either discuss the subject, or get off this comment section or go play in iVillage. The topic here is whether or not men and women should have relationships in the office, scatter-brain.
I've had two in-office relationships, with very different results.
The first was with somebody that didn't take rejection well when I decided it wasn't a good idea to continue. I haven't been able to promote or get a serious nibble following an interview within the agency I work for since. She had lots of powerful friends, and, well, I got blackballed.
The second was a woman I was on the hiring panel for as a peer. I trained her, I worked with her every day very closely for a year and a half, and we have been really good friends for about six years. She and I ended up leaving our respective spouses at about the same time, got to commiserating one day over lunch shortly thereafter, and started dating several years ago.
We now live together, and are getting married next fall. Her kids often slip and call me "Dad". I'd say there's no fixed rule - although, to be honest, we didn't work in the same office after we'd started dating.
"I met and married my spouse at my old workplace. Off the top of my head, I can think of a dozen other couples I knew well who met and married at the same company, and probably many more I didn't even know about."
That's nice. Unless a man is a fool, we cannot afford this luxury.
unreality2007, damn, boy....you crack me up! Seriously.
Again. One more time, in little words for you, so maybe you'll get it this time.
I worked with lots of guys. Never dated any of them, never looked at my job as a lottery ticket/pathway to megabucks through a lawsuit, never expected anything more from my job than my promised wages and benefits. I listened to my parents telling me about the pitfalls of dating where you work, and didn't go there.
Now....if you get off thinking that somehow I am not American (nope), cheated on my husband with a wimpy little guy like you (uh....hell no!), and have a husband with masculinity issues (excuse me....had to laugh there....ok, I pulled myself together), hey....knock yourself out.
Whatever helps you through the day, even if it is imagining all these wild sex parties that happened in your mind. Oh, sorry, the Playboy Mansion....riiiiight!
But taking into account all the people I talked to as a 911 operator, well.....you need something to get your mind right. Prozac? Lithium? Maybe thorazine? I don't know, but you might want to consider better living through chemistry.
Again, thanks for the laughs. If you have anything intelligent to contribute, by all means, post it.
But only an angry, impotent little man living in mama's basement could post something straight out of the Taliban handbook like Women actually need to be seperated from men in the workplace because they are too insane to interact with men, or one more reason why women do not even belong in the workplace at all.
If women aren't in the workplace, how are they supposed to pay their bills, numbnuts? Please don't tell me by marrying someone like you.....heaven forbid!
------
Now, on to the intelligent commenters on this blog:
I am glad that some of you found true love at work. Maybe I would have if I had dated at work, but I saw too many times where the aftermath was just fugly. It was a little awkward after just turning down a date, so I can't imagine how it would have been had I dated a guy at work and it went sideways. I guess if you would be dating someone from a distant department, that would be marginal, but if you are gonna see them every day? Oh, hell no!
(Of course, working with people who carry guns and/or axes to work gives you a different point of view.... ;) )
Tom, I'm sorry that you got tagged twice for conduct you didn't do. I wish I could come up with a solution for that, but I can't. I sincerely hope that never happens to you again.
There is one thing that I saw that had a pretty good batting average, and that is setting up a friend from outside work with a coworker. That's how I met my sweetie, and I set up two of my outside work friends with guys I worked with.
Advantages? Well.....he/she is already sort of vetted through the third party, and if it does go to hell, well.....it's easier to face the person who brought you together each day at work than your ex.
"But taking into account all the people I talked to as a 911 operator, well....."
911 operator?!? Bingo! That explains why you have the I.Q. of a 39 cent disposable razor. Like the 911 operator who told the man in the emergency room in L.A. that he was an idiot for calling and reporting a woman was dying on the floor in a pool of blood. Of course the hospital staff were complete ghetto idiot scum as well and that is why she died. Stupidity leads to more stupidity.
911 operator? Doesn't that say it all? I regret that I even wasted my time with you. You're dismissed.
Yes, I was a 911 operator. Yes, there are some people who make colossal screwups and end up on the evening news. Sometimes national news if they do something unthinkable.
But the overwhelming majority of 911 operators perform their job flawlessly. That's the reason the beauzeaux make the news....because that performance does not meet the exacting high standards that are rightfully expected each and every day.
If you think my job was something to be embarrassed about, well, that says more about you than it does me. I never had to apologize for my job performance, and am proud of the way I handled a job that you wouldn't last an hour doing.
And it's ok, really.....I know that for all your tough talk, you couldn't dial those numbers fast enough if your day suddenly went to hell. And the person on the other end of the line would get you ungrateful bastard who thinks he knows all about my old job the help you need, no matter how much of a royal pain in the ass you are during the call.
And the officers, firefighters and/or paramedics would do what they could to save a sorry waste of skin like you, too, no matter how much your own stupid behavior contributed to the problem, and no matter how many times they were called out to your house that week. We'd try to get the information to the hospital that they need to keep you from coding, even if you deliberately tell us total bullshit that couldn't possibly be true about how you got in the state you are currently in.
Why? Because unlike your probable current exploration of the fast food industry opportunities in your town, that job matters. It can literally be life or death, and we take it seriously. Someday, you might be damn glad we do.
Now, back to your mama's basement, and let the adults have a discussion here, m'kay??
WG, congratulations on your upcoming marriage! May it be long and happy. I'm glad your office romance worked out well for you.
Tom,
You said:
"I guess what bothers me the most is the behavior of the women, who can pretty much dress as they please and say whatever they like about men, post nude male pictures in their cubicles, wink etc.
The men just ignore it all and get on with work."
DON'T PUT WITH IT!!! I got a female supervisor fired at a company I worked for 4 years ago who was harassing me. The magic word is 'harass' - employers freak out when they hear the word. Who cares if she's a she and you're a he? Also, if a woman is trouble, ignore her like she's not even alive. It will really leave a severe, chilling effect & much of the time they'll simply quit! The real goal is to work in a female- free environment if at all possible. If they cannot pay their bills without a job, then they need to get their act together and be a real person with character, then we'll allow them back in the workplace. This isn't a game and neither is your job.
"Yes, I was a 911 operator."
Let me spell out for you: I don't associate with ghetto soap scum.
I don't associate with ghetto soap scum.
So, unreality2007, that means you got fired from Taco Bell?
Gee....bummer....no free bean burritos for you!
Still waiting on an answer to how women are supposed to pay their bills if they aren't supposed to be in the workplace, numbnuts......and dissing my former career isn't exactly a brilliant answer....neither is saying that women aren't allowed to work where men are. Give me one that works for the 21st century, oh brilliant sage of the fry pit.
So, you got an answer or not?
Sucks to be called out by a girl, don't it????
"Sucks to be called out by a girl, don't it????"
Yep, you're ghetto alright. "Ware is mah GovMENT chek? Mm-MM, some free donuts, HUD housing. I'm getting ma handout!"
This topic- this entire blog is about people who live the real world who practice capitalism. Go play in the street with some broken glass or get shot or whatever it is you lunatics do for fun- you're harassing US.
I'm white, you racist idiot! We got the message that you don't like women, now I guess minorities chap your hide, too. Why, they pay them the same wage I, a white boy, get! How dare they!!
You're so damn dumb you don't even realize what the topic is! Read the top one more time....or find someone who can read it and explain to you in one syllable words that it's about the pros and cons of office romances, not "capitalism". WTF are you on, anyway?
Now, do you have an answer for the question, or not? I'm guessing.....nope. You haven't provided one yet. It would require actual thought, which is way over your head, fast food boy.
From a legal perspective, isn't inter-office romance where promotion, stock options, evaluations, etc. are at issue a minefield?
Particularly in "up or out" type rating companies?
If I were an ambitious lawyer I would go looking for people who lost out on the above, find an office romance that would credibly suggest that the loser was selected to make one half of the couple a winner, and file suit.
I would think a great deal of hostility women in the workplace can generate is the prospect of unequal treatment. An attractive woman can flirt, become the girlfriend of the boss or superior, the rest of the workers who are not female and pretty are left out in the cold. It isn't irrational since the romance winners in the workplace by definition create losers elsewhere.
Unequal treatment or the perception of unequal treatment can generate a great deal of hostility. It would not shock me to see lawsuits proliferating as a result of workplace romances (because those romances create losers).
JHMO, I think it's disastrous for most organizations.
"I'm white, you racist idiot!"
So sorry. You're trailer trash. The similarities are amazing aren't they?
reality2007, I hope you get everything you deserve.
"From a legal perspective, isn't inter-office romance where promotion, stock options, evaluations, etc. are at issue a minefield?"
The irony is that the only real way that women generally make their way 'up and down' in the company is usually through sexual favors- it's their operating system. So the more insane the sexual harassment laws become, and if we follow through to the logical conclusion at this rate of insanity, eventually it will become simply illegal for a man to speak to a woman at all in the workplace & not just with threat of losing his job, but a felony punishable with jail time. It's already a stupid idea to talk to a woman at work. So now women have shot themselves in the foot. How can they ever hope for advancement in the company without sexual favors? Lord knows their allergic to work or even showing up for work 80% of the time! (ha ha)
"reality2007, I hope you get everything you deserve."
Why thank you, that's so sweet. How did you know I about to be promoted?
Wow, you made it to assistant manager on the midnight shift! We're so proud of you, unreality2007.
So sorry. You're trailer trash. The similarities are amazing aren't they?
Wouldn't know. I've never been in your neighborhood. (rimshot)
Actually, hiredgeek, if he really is getting promoted and he oversees any women at all, his comments on this blog (and similar ones on other blogs) could come back to bite him in the ass someday.
But based on your name, I'm assuming you already knew that. ;)
reality2007, Kory O, no one wants to see you bickering like this. Please stop, I think you two have almost killed this thread.
I have to admit that I routinely have sexual intercourse (with no intention of conception - purely recreational) with the company office manager. I think she is hot and she thinks I am funny. Sometimes, when we are alone, I also bump uglies with the payclerk. Our project manager has had a steady romance with the receptionist for 12 years. And not one problem. No sexual harassment compliants or wrongful termination lawsuits. In fact, there is not one reason to doubt that the sexual relationships within our company have probably kept us in business.
Other than the fact that it is a family business with only 2 employees. But we are still violating some principles the authors of the book have laid out (pardon the pun). I would ask the human resources person to have a meeting with the CEO, but I think they doing each other later tonight.
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This topic certainly brings out emotional reactions. I can understand the arguments on both sides, but I'm just wondering about something. What about the boss? I'm referring especially to the owner of the business who built it from scratch without whom there would be no workplace in which to flirt and date. We normally think of it as awful for him or her to "take advantage" of employees, don't we? I used to own a small business (10-20 employees) and I prided myself on never hitting on anyone -- even if they hit on me. But if it is fair to allow employees to have affairs with each other, where is the line drawn and why? Is dating only to be allowed between equals? What about the notorious "power imbalances"? What are the rules?
I'm only asking because I honestly don't know. It seems a bit unfair to only allow dating between some but not all employees, as it implies that adults are not free to make up their own minds and assumes coercion that may not exist.
eric: I'd have a firm rule of firing both people who got involved in any way. A strict no dating policy works best and helps avoid messy fallout from relationships gone bad. If you're starting a firm, I'd do everything possible to ensure your spouse was not involved at the firm at all, or left as soon as the business was established. Outside connections do so much damage to the dynamics of a business.
I had a workplace romance. She was my superior but it was never an issue, except inasmuch as she insisted on paying whenever we went out.
She was amazing in every way, and I trusted her as she trusted me not to let our relationship interfere with work. Both of us proved worthy of that trust.
Be prudent, but take a chance. If you live in fear fear is all you'll get out of life.
reality2007 and Kory O,
Cut it out--you two can go slug it out in the Dr. Helen playpen in my sidebar if you feel the need to continue your private conversation.
"I'm only asking because I honestly don't know. It seems a bit unfair to only allow dating between some but not all employees, as it implies that adults are not free to make up their own minds and assumes coercion that may not exist."
The answer is there is no solution to the problem when men and women are working together in a place of business. Now use common sense; your best bet is to hire one or the other gender.
Now ask yourself, which gender is more dependable, shows up everyday, actually works and is focused on work and doesn't file sexual harassment lawsuits? Men. Problem solved. Your welcome in advance.
When I started working with high voltage linear accelerators, I was a bit surprised that I got way more anti-sexual harassment training than safety training. Makes sense though, in retrospect. I wouldn't have been hired if I was dumb enough to stick my head in a radiation path, but failing to train me in how not to talk to girls would have opened the company to tremendous liability. I'm pretty glad I don't actually work with any women on a daily basis, because I hate having to remember to be afraid.
All in all, the best case scenario for me is being morbidly single and happily employed.
sid: Other than the fact that it is a family business with only 2 employees.
So you and your wife?
"..but failing to train me in how not to talk to girls would have opened the company to tremendous liability.."
Funny how the way you phrased this has two meanings. 'Training In How Not To Talk To Women (In The Workplace)' sounds like an excellent title for a documentary that all men should watch before entering in the workplace anywhere.
I can just see the scene in the film- a woman comes up to a man in an office and asks,
"Dave, can you tell when the deadline is for the Johnson account?"
Dave responds, "By law I cannot speak to you," and walks away quickly.
Serket,
Yes, just me and the wife running a small company. Just thought it was time in this thread for some levity.
But we are doing it like bunnies around the office. Of course, the office is literally 6 inches from the bedroom.
"Yes, just me and the wife running a small company. Just thought it was time in this thread for some levity."
Te-he-he. That's so cutesy-cutesy. Sexual harassment laws are so insane they are a cancer on American business. What you are implying here is, "hey, since I don't have that problem, I don't care."
Like saying, "I don't have cancer, ha ha, it's not my problem, so who cares. It's time for some levity."
" reality2007 said...
"...people know all this and they've decided the potential reward is worth the risk."
These 'people' are obviously not men, because we have far more to lose than a woman."
How exactly do you suppose women manage to date male co-workers if no men date female co-workers?
6 inches to the office? Well you know what they say, it's not the size of the trip to the office that counts but what you do with it.
(Heh, sorry, couldn't resist.)
@r2007:
I'm sorry for whatever happened to you. It has obviously left its mark. I hope that whatever happened to you never happens to me.
Life has some hard lessons to teach, lessons about things going wrong, but not everything will go wrong all the time, and you have to measure the joy against the pain.
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I not only fell in love with a co-worker, I fell in love with my boss who happens to be the CEO and sole owner of the company. What attracted him to me is the fact that I have a brilliant mind. I fell in love with him because of the wonderful person he is. I'll admit in the beginning it was a thrill - the whole boss/secretary thing you mentioned in your article. As with any relationship, the thrill fades and we have moved into a deeper more meaningful relationship. I truly love the man - not the title.
There was a time when I was very well respected in the company. Now, all credibility is gone. My boss/boyfriend is frightened to show any treatment that may seem partial. I know people think I get special treatment. They do not know the half of it! This relationship has the opposite effect for me. I do not receive raises or promotions for fear of "what will people think?". My boss/boyfriend tells me repeatedly that I work hard, do an exceptional job and he feels I truly care for my job and his business. It is very hard to deal with. He holds me to a strict standard. I must follow the rules to a Tee. What others are allowed to do, I am not. I am watched like a hawk and I feel all eyes are on me. I have thought about seeking employment elsewhere, but am frightened. What do I say in an interview as to why I am leaving my job of 9 years? This will not look good on my resume, for sure. What will it do to my personal relationship if I leave his employ? I am a key player in the success of his business. He and I have been in this personal relationship for 3+ years and it hasn't gotten any easier with time. Office politics sucks and people are down right jealous and mean! No one dares speak an ill word about him - they all continue to suck up and everyone is careful not to say anything offensive to him. He thinks I am paranoid. I hear things, see things and know the looks and the whispers all too well. The woman at the front desk keeps a tally of my personal phone calls keeps track of when I come and go. She tells on me like I am a child. I wrecked my car a few months ago. I mentioned buying a particular car and the next thing I knew, I was called into the boss' office. Someone had told him I was bragging that he was going to buy me a new car. I never said that. I felt offended that I had to explain myself to him. I could go on and on, but I won't.
We want to marry but he (not me) has a fear of mutiny among the troops if should I become "The Mrs.". I have had my eye on that title for a while now. I just don't know what to do at this point. I love him but I also love my job and need the security that goes along with it. He is a very wealthy man and I could afford to stay at home after marriage - that just doesn't appeal to me. I am not the "kept woman" type. Any advise you could give would be greatly appreciated.
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