This is Depressing News
I was listening to Rush Limbaugh today and heard him talk about this new study out of the UK showing that men from 35-44 are the most miserable:
It seems that if men were just concerned about not being in their prime, their happiness would not return when they reached 65. I wonder if the stress of often being the primary bread winner and putting more time into child rearing than their fathers ever did are causes for some of this unhappiness? Try doing all of this while being dissed in the process and told that you are the cause of the world's problems. No wonder men of this age feel down. After sixty-five, they become part of a protected group, the elderly. Then it's time to relax. However, it would be much better if men in their 30's until 65 could find some way to feel less miserable. If you have some tips, leave a comment.
Some might say that all they have to worry about is getting to work on time and the onset of a little middle-aged spread.
But men in their late-30s and early-40s are the least content of all of us, it seems.
Whether they are mourning the passing of their prime or struggling to cope with the demands of a job and young family, those aged 35-44 invariably hit a mid-life crisis when their happiness level plunges lower than at any other age, according to a study for the Government.
It makes them the least satisfied members of society, scoring well below teenagers, the elderly - and women of all ages.
Researchers found that it takes men until they reach the age of 65 to start enjoying life as much as they did in their late-teens and early-20s.
It seems that if men were just concerned about not being in their prime, their happiness would not return when they reached 65. I wonder if the stress of often being the primary bread winner and putting more time into child rearing than their fathers ever did are causes for some of this unhappiness? Try doing all of this while being dissed in the process and told that you are the cause of the world's problems. No wonder men of this age feel down. After sixty-five, they become part of a protected group, the elderly. Then it's time to relax. However, it would be much better if men in their 30's until 65 could find some way to feel less miserable. If you have some tips, leave a comment.
Labels: Male depression
posted by Helen at 12:39 PM
121 Comments:
The data cited satisfaction index of 7.55 to 6.8 to 7.8 over the range of early adult to middle age to older/retired. They don't give a variance number but assuming that these are statistically reasonable, this doesn't seem like a huge amount of variation. Is this that big a deal?
Still, there may be something to this. My observation and experience is that the 35-44 age range is where the bad decisions of youth catch up with you. Also, you start to be able to see where you're going to end up career and family wise. You may not be there yet but you can see those things that are no longer possible as well as what is likely. For many men, they are not happy with what they see.
As you get older (late 40's and beyond) you start to realize two things. 1) Where you are is not as bed as you thought. 2) A lot of the things that you thought mattered a lot seem to matter much less.
This is less of a tip and more of a mindset. While I can definitely say raising young children can be stressful, it has never given me cause to feel miserable or unhappy...
My children bring me great joy, and spending time with them - even some time that I would rather be spending doing "me" stuff - ends up being as fulfilling as anything I could do.
I feel sorry for the men who feel being a dad is a burden. Even worse, I feel sorry for the children whose dads act like their own fathers undoubtedly did - indifferent (if they're lucky) or cruel and/or abusive (if they're not).
There are lots of reasons for a 35-44 yr-old man to feel "miserable" but raising kids shouldn't be one of them.
Now, feeling career and marriage pressure and fighting that middle-age spread - that's something to cry about ;)
fluoxetine?
The other day I was talking to someone and the phrase that popped out was "My heart's been broken so many times it's nothing but scar tissue and 'Do Not Enter' signs now." I'm 52 now --- it was between 30-44 that it happened.
If I had to guess, I would guess it's not married guys with kids that skew the curve --- its divorced guys with no contact with their kids, or with ugly divorces and custody trouble, or with no kids.
I had my mid-life crisis at 37. Bought motorcycle, crashed same. After that, I was happy to be alive.
Could be that men in this age range just experience more stress - more responsibilities at work, kids hitting high school or college, health problems starting to crop up. Plus less testosterone to keep you hard charging.
I agree with Barry about the mental/emotional changes that occur. Even though I'm not that bright, I know I'm a lot wiser about life than I was in my 20s. I can handle it. That's a good feeling.
Of course, old age will bring a new set of problems. Not sure how I'll handle that.
"I wonder if the stress of often being the primary bread winner and putting more time into child rearing than their fathers ever did are causes for some of this unhappiness?"
I'm 44 and I can tell you that even if that were true, it would only be a minor concern. You're talking about a paper cut type of concern compared to losing a limb. Men by 35-40, etc.- we're smart now and we know how the game works now and completely a rigged game with the way the culture and system works with women- everything. We have all of the responsibilities and women have become hateful and spiteful and are no longer the prize. And then if we talk about it, then we're told something's wrong with us. It's all part of the rigged game. Young men just haven't figured out what's going on- they're still buying the lie.
i am male, in england, and am 34 years old. i dont have kids, and dont want them.
am i happy, i would say quite a lot of the time, but at this age in my life, i can see the future easier, and i get worried about how my life will go. and how society will change to make me less of a man and more of a slave.
when i was 21 i didnt see the future, i lived for the then.. i had fun, but as i grew older i saw more and more discrimination, more and more anti male studies.
the gradual change of society, to the detriment of all.
but as reality2007 says, we see more of the truth of how the world works.. and its never good.
so am i happy, yes but with provisions, i got my girl, need to find a house, work out how to get the money, work out the rest of my life how to live it in happiness.
Most of what you guys are saying is just why a 35-44 yo male would be less happy than a younger male, not why they are less happy than women, for instance. Why wouldn't 35-44 yo women experience the same things? Also 35 is not exactly the age of broken dreams. The lion's share of that happens by the age of 30 doesn't it? Surely the writing's on the wall by then? I went to graduate school and was disillusioned about any dreams I may have had probably by the age of 27.
And, why is that so, anyway? I mean it is one thing that your dream of climbing Mt. Everest is never coming true, but it is another thing to really feel like life sucks worse now than it ever has before. I think there maybe is something to that.
Personally, I think it is because men are still on the hook like they always have been to "make it happen" but are simultaneously denied the intangible benefits normally afforded to such an individual. Basically, they are taken for granted a lot more than anyone. And, it's not like no one appreciates them or that they do everything. It is just a slight bias against them. Surely you know what I mean -- you know how some issue comes along maybe in your company. And, group is collected and a project identified and there are lots of meetings about it. But, usually the real problem is solved not even by the majority of the people involved, though they had some hand in it. Nevertheless, everyone gets equal credit. Well, it sounds like men find themselves on the receiving end of that kind of a deal a little more often than everyone else, whether it be in the corporate world or at home or just out in society in their private lives.
It's just a raw deal -- not that it is highway robbery or anything -- just not a good deal, is all. Of course, there are exceptions, but on average, you should try to avoid living the life of a 35-44 yo male if you can the same way you would avoid a career notorious for low job satisfaction.
I figured out the game was rigged when I was a kid - seemed pretty obvious at the time. I spent a lot of time and energy trying to avoid playing. The difficult part for me was realizing, much later in life, that it was the only game in town.
"Why wouldn't 35-44 yo women experience the same things?"
They don't. That's what the article said. Men and women couldn't be more different or our circumstances in society.
You have that smug, condescending tone of a woman. You're a woman using a man's name aren't you?
adrian is a girl or guys name....
They don't. That's what the article said. Men and women couldn't be more different or our circumstances in society.
You have that smug, condescending tone of a woman. You're a woman using a man's name aren't you?
Lol. Perhaps you should read my whole comment....
Isn't there some debate as to whether there really is anything mid-life crisis? My understanding is that this construct has some problems. That said, I'd say that many men are unhappy with their marriage and family life because their roles in these areas has been under assault for quite some time. Men are told that being a leader and provider for their families is "antiquated" and that in the future, we really won't "need" men.
I don't think men are told that. That doesn't make sense. My mother and father have had mid-life crisis. My dad bought a sports car and my mom started going to parties since she never got out of the house before. After raising three kids, my parents wanted to re-live their youth. Have fun. That sort of thing. Course they were depressed at first but they both much happier people now.
If the study was done at a single point in time, rather than longitudinally--and this appears to be the cases from the writeup--then the data doesn't necessarily support the conclusions about age. Men who are now 65 and men who are now 35 have had different life experiences due to changes in society: this is probably even more true in the UK than it is here. It could be that those who are now 65 were just as happy--or even happier--when they were 35, and those who are now 35 will be just as unhappy--or more so--when they are 65.
By age 37 or so, most men (certainly true traditionally) have been getting up in the morning and going to work that might not be the most fulfilling for anywhere from 15 to 20 years. Somewhere in that timeframe was a divorce or two, and they are still suffering the consequences. And beer with the buddies just doesn't provide quite satisfaction of earlier days.
Then men turn around and look forward, and what is looking back at them? 30 more years of the same, without any attenuating effects from the starry-eyed optimism and naivete of youth. This reality is not an attractive one. Add in a modern cultural put-downs, and what's to be happy about?
Men used to be programmed for a life of work until age 65, including parental and spousal responsibilities, then retirement and some relief followed shortly by disease and death. But at least that life was generally respected. All has changed now, and little for the better.
UK Whites are miserable because the black sun worshipers are burning them at very fast pace. UK Melanoma Rates Fastest Growing Disease .
Many blacks in the UK aren't lost in the romanticism for whites blacks hold for them here in the U.S.A..
"All white people deserve the burning melanomas of the fires of hell," Elijah Baal, Yacub 7 Ali national minister.
"adrian is a girl or guys name....
That's why she picked it.
"Lol. Perhaps you should read my whole comment...."
I did that and even more. I read between the lines as well. Of course I also noticed you didn't deny that you're female.
Of course I also noticed you didn't deny that you're female.
And, you didn't deny that you're a dumb ass. Not only am I male, but you are, indeed, a dumbass.
But wait! If you read between the lines, you'll see that I actually think you're a really smart guy!
And, Adrian is really a man's name, I might add, even though some people have named their daughter's that. It is after the Roman Emperor Publius Aelius Traianus Hadrianus or just Hadrian. (He built a wall in Europe -- you might have heard of him....)
Now, I'll just take my testicles back, thank you very much! ;o)
If the 35-44 group is miserable now, just wait till they get to 55 and find out that they're unemployable, should they ever have to change jobs or are laid off.
I'm 54. The most depressing thing I've discovered at my age is the fact that my ears and feet are still growing. Well, the waist line too, but that begins in the late twenties, and I am able to combat that to a degree.
And yeah, like many, I am paying for bad decisions and habits from the earlier years. But every breath is a good breath until there are no more.
I have never regretted my children for one five seconds. They are my joy. Marriage, however, is another thing altogether. But if that is what it took to have my kids, it is a price I'll pay.
What would I change? I would have chosen to start and run my own company, at otherwise all costs. As many times as it took. I have made a lot of money for other people. No where near a fair amount of it landed in my own wallet, considering.
Well, such is the nature of data that it can be interpreted in many different possibly even conflicting ways. Applying Ockham's Razor, though, would seem to require at least a pretty good rationale for why these other factors cause this particular age group to be disgruntled when a different generation wouldn't have been. Otherwise, I think you have to imagine that "all other things are equal" and draw the obvious conclusions.
Thanks, Kim. I'm considering looking for other work. I'm full of hope now.
"And, you didn't deny that you're a dumb ass. Not only am I male, but you are, indeed, a dumbass."
If you actually are 'male' then you're a magina.
"It is after the Roman Emperor Publius Aelius Traianus Hadrianus or just Hadrian. (He built a wall in Europe -- you might have heard of him....)"
Cutesy, cutesy useless, unnesessary information.
Sounds like someone already is unemployed.
"Did you ever wake up one day and suddenly realize that this is the best you're ever gonna do. The best you're ever gonna have. The best you're ever gonna be...and it ain't that great?"
"Happy Birthday, Frank."
(City Slickers)
Adrian, I would suggest that conversation with reality2007 is impossible.
The first comment, Dale's, has a lot to it. I thought I'd missed my midlife crisis at 40, but in retrospect, I was much miserable and irritable at 41-42. It got better.
I am 54, life is good. But as I fall into the category of nondivorced, children just about grown and gone, perhaps seneca's comment has some explanatory power.
I'm 49 and enjoying life more than ever. I attribute this to my simple life credo: "No wife, no kids, no pets, no girlfriends." Whenever I hit a rest area on one of my motorcycles and see some guy in a minivan with his wife and 2.5 kids wistfully looking at my bike, I smile.
I was married for six-hundred...ah... I mean, six years back in my early thirties. THOSE were the most miserable years of my life. I'll never make that mistake again... hopefully. ;^)
This may sound crazy but from my own experience I have to believe that wide spread use of statins has a major effect on mood and just feeling well.....
The 35-44 year old men are part of the first generation of the wimpification of males in our society and the fallout of the woman's movement. I feel sorry for them. Plus, by the time you hit your late 50s and early 60s, you begin to realize how stupid and silly many of the rules of the game are and you can relax and be yourself. I thing that goes for women too. Life no longer begins at 40, it begins at 60 and it is great!
Pew Research does a study that shows over a long study period that single men with children are the unhappiest. I agree with the previous post saying the men in this category or skewing the results. Finding a happy 38-44 year old divorced father is pretty hard. But don't despair! Helen asked for tips and I'll give one. GET OUT OF THE COUNTRY. I love the US but to feel appreciated as a decent, respectful, hardworking man go elsewhere. Places where equality between men and women is strived for, but differences are celebrated. Basically a 38-44 man in the US has been nuetered and told he's a piece of sh^%t, and the cultural goal is sameness between the sexes. Not a lot of fun. But step out and you'll find a world of difference. Feminists will tell you these are places where desparate women are willing to submit to men with more power. Don't believe it! I've been to South America and Eastern Europe and its amazing the number of intelligent, classically educated (FSU countries), attractive, fun, good-hearted woman that I've met. Then I come back to the US and try my best, but end up listening to rants about men, and life by women who 90% of the world would feel had it all in terms of affluence and opportunity. If women in the US spent ONE week in the shoes of women in some of the other less fortunate countries they'd be a whole lot more thankful and less cynical.
Lets see I can spend my time with an appreciative, smart, playful woman talking about literature, the arts, life and love or I can spend my time with a cynical, condeming, woman listening about "Sex in the City" smattered with cliches picked up from a woman's studies course.
Although older now, I didn't really have that crisis thing. Perhaps it's because I always believed "tomorrow is an invention of insurance salesmen." Don't know. Maybe it was 'cause I've always been a bit of a cad.
At 37 through 45 I constructed and ran a stunt show. It was some histerically great times. After that was over, I started doing other things.
Maybe the key is to do stuff. 2 cents worth.
Hucbald said: Whenever I hit a rest area on one of my motorcycles and see some guy in a minivan with his wife and 2.5 kids wistfully looking at my bike, I smile.
I hate you, but don't take it personally!
I think the folks citing societal influences are off base. The ones who mention a rigged game, failing at the game, facing the realization that fairness isn't a constitutional guarantee, and knowing that the past is prologue are the ones closer to the truth.
I am 35 years old, I have a full time job, a part time job, a stay-at-home wife, three kids under 4 years old and I'm finishing up my dissertation for my PhD. I also go on the job market for a professor position this fall, in which I must travel a few days a week on job interviews. Does life suck? no. Is it stressful as hell? You betcha. Am I miserable? No, just tired. Sometimes its hard to tell the two apart, but I'm glad I have my life at 35 and not my dad's.
I would have to say the 35 to 45 and a couple of years beyond were the worst years of my life. Like Hucbald, I relate it nearly all to a bad marriage. I love being with my kids. They are the greatest joy in my life. My youngest son stays with me all the time.
While I had jobs I didn't like, I wasn't married to one. I took college classes to switch from a career in social services/mental health to computer programming. It was much easier and cheaper than divorce.
Without a nagging spouse I must do all the cooking, laundry, cleaning, etc. But no one gripes about the toilet seat or hairs on the shower drain. I mow the yard when I wish and don't have to limit my area of the house to an obscure corner in the basement while someone else dictates the rest of the house's decor.
Life is good and, like Hucbald, I see no reason to get married again.
At 38 to 42 years of age, we realize it's been 20 solid years of work. And it's going to be 25 to 30 more before we can lay down our tools. And we don't get a break from any of it to discover ourselves, have kids, or "go back to school to get that degree".
It is actually fairly simple. Men in the ages between 30's and 60 are still testosterone laden and have learned that they will never be satisfied because of the fundamental difference between the sexes. After 65 the libido slows down and they can think about different subjects.
I submit that if you gave estrogen and progesterone hormone therapy to all those guys, they would be happier.
Nah -- the testosterone really goes away at 25 -- that's why your insurance rates go down....
I think it's because they try hard and show up for work every day to help people. And then after a while, they realize every part of our society hates them and is designed explicitly to take from them and harm them without ever giving them anything in return.
That ends at 65.
I've rethought the subject in the last couple of hours. During the twenties, thirties and into the mid to late forties, women want men who will care for them in the way their Daddy did and men fail. Men want women to take care of them the same way their Mothers did, and women fail. By the time you reach your fifties and sixties, men have turned into their fathers, women have become their mothers and voila, everyone is happy.
Kim, you're on it. I told my kids that by age 50 they had better
- be able to retire (whether or not they do), or
- have a tenured job (government, school, or a corporation where the word 'loyalty' is bidirectional and not a bitter joke), or
- be nationally known in their field, or
- be the owner.
Dr. Helen, with due respect to one I normally admire, your husband is daft on the subject of life extension. At age 50, when you are unemployable, you are supposed to look forward to another 70 years scrabbling around trying to beat out the other geezers for a job as a Walmart greeter?
I started my kids saving and investing in their teens. They'll be OK in their mid-late 40s. I started for myself when I learned the economic situation, in a strip-mine divorce at 36. I'm OK, though it took til 58 to make it. Money has to be on the list of basic life skills, because if it isn't, you're looking at misery that lasts far past age 65.
Now here's a theory I've heard tossed around: Most women get to fulfill their biological drive, to wit: have children. This is socially acceptable. Men don't get to do there biological drive past 30: have sex with as many women as possible. It certainly isn't socially acceptable AND they can no longer derive pleasure from being "King of the Castle" anymore. In fact, folks will laugh and scold any man who desires to to be such a King. And, let's not forget how men are portrayed on TV: Raymond is an idiot, Homer is a slob, etc.
Perhaps this is the answer:
Unemployment rate is six times higher than official figures
Occam's Razor and all that.
Hucbald said: Whenever I hit a rest area on one of my motorcycles and see some guy in a minivan with his wife and 2.5 kids wistfully looking at my bike, I smile.
Actually, I'm thinking, "What a loser. He's going to be a lonely old man" as I pack up my wife and 4 kids.
I'm happier now, at 37, than I've ever been. Sex is more and better then when we got married, the job's ok, and my wife and kids love me. What have I got to complain about?
I don't think it's depressing at all. Forty is an ideal age to discover one's discontentedness. Plenty of time left to get out of a bad career, a bad marriage, or a bad neighborhood.
Depressing would be if the study showed unhappiness continuing to trend down after forty.
Statistically, life gets better, blokes. So cheers!
I was certainly most depressed during that age range (so far). Several factors for me:
Sports - exercise is a good anti-depressant. I started getting injuries that started greatly limiting the amount of exercise at that age.
Sex - sex drive was still extremely high, but wife lost interest. That lead to nearly unbearable frustration. Now the sex drive is waning so I don't much care. Thus I'm happier.
Fatigue - love my kids, but between 60+ hour per week job, shopping, cooking, cleaning, and chasing kids hither and thither, I was beat. For sure, the wife did her share, but I was still beat. Kids are older and more self-sufficient now. It's hard to be happy when you're so tired you can hardly move.
Tips: take care of your body better when you're younger, marry a woman who's intensely into sex and hope that she stays that way, and don't have kids (but then you may be more depressed later).
45 and in the "life sucks" boat. I agree with bret's points, except the exercise bit (it depressed me.)
To lack of sex, I'd add lack of affection and intimacy.
This is exacerbated by working long hours at a job I don't like in a career I don't like but don't dare change since it pays really well and I pretty much suck at everything else.
Meanwhile, the wife does whatever the hell she feels like doing and the kids are bitching and moaning about school and not being able to live life exactly how they want.
Another factor for me personally is discovering that I liked my kids when they were little, but don't particularly like them as teenagers.
I'm reminded of the quip by Tim Allen that women can do whatever we but men have two choices; work or go to jail.
Does this study find any difference among racial groups?
I have heard that suicide among middle-aged men is almost twice that of women. True?
If so, there has been no outcry. Just think of the hue and cry if women's suicide were twice that of men.
I've had and continue to have an interesting life. I've been a fighter pilot, engineer, businessman, musician, husband, father, and friend among other things. Though society has grown to thinking of me and men in general as pigs and devils, I've always helped people and strived to be good.
I'm 53 and have been both tragically sad and incredibly happy since my late 30's - all due to choices and behaviors on my part. After leaviing the Air Force (stupid move on my part). I screwed up a beautiful marriage to a truly beautiful (inside and out) woman after 14 years (barely legal blonde twins half my age - lasted 18 months...). Stupid (Ok, great - I mean REALLY GREAT - sex, but still stupid).
My parents both died within two years of each other. I miss them tremendously. Grinding unhappiness set in as the truth of life as I was living it became apparent. I blew it. After the twins, I met another gorgeous blonde ten years younger than me and married her after three months. Stupid again.
However... We're still together. I'm starting a high tech business that could go way big. She is very supportive. That is good. But there is no real love between us, only the caring for each other as parents of our mutual child and as co-supporters of our home and lives. All that is both bad and good.
My son. The true joy of my life. Words can not describe the happiness, peace, and depth of feeling he's brought to me. I'm priveledged beyond measure to be his father. He is unique in all of creation he loves me as I love him.
The simple truth is had I not screwed up my first marriage and my flying career, my son would not exist. I can't bear that thought and so I know that all is how it should be regardless of the pain and depression.
I'm not ecstatically happy. Some days are great others not so much. I think I'm doing well. I learned from my mistakes and have purpose to my life. I'm loved by my son and for that I'm grateful. I don't like the practiced routine pretense of my marriage, but it serves the purpose of raising our son.
Sorry for the rambling, but I'm too tired to comment coherently but felt the need to respond.
Good luck to all of you.
I started jumping out of airplanes. It changes your life.
I like to pull my main at 13,000' right out of the plane and fly around for 15 or 20 minutes before landing.
There's something about looking down two and a half miles with just the fluttering of the chute and the whisper of the wind between the suspension lines that makes all the ground based bullshit seem trivial.
One jump like that is worth a handful of Xanax.
heres some suicide rates, some are male
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_sui_rat_mal-health-suicide-rate-males
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=1092
In 2005, there were 5,671 suicides in adults aged 15 and over in the UK, which represented 1 per cent of all adult deaths. Almost three-quarters of these suicides were among men, and this division between the sexes was broadly similar throughout the period 1991 to 2005.
and this is from my county
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/6036671.stm
Overall male suicide rates have risen by 9% in the North West, it added. (this was in 2006)
this is a site about it in the UK
http://www.thecalmzone.net/
In their thirties and forties men carry a lot of responsibility: They also face the full blast of social contempt for males. This is a big part of why men feel worse than women.
The other big part is the men hurt by divorce/separation/children plus crime-victimization/misandry/etc..
Since we live in a culture which is, for the most part, openly proud of the damage done to innocent males, the group of males who is most likely to be harmed will have massive bad feelings. Those men skew the data for the rest of the men.
Put the two together and you have the reason men feel worse than women. Some men are a LOT worse off than women and our society is for the most part proud of the damage done them.
I am 52 or 53 (can't remember which right now!). Life came good for me a few years ago. I now have a really fascinating job. I've had some good experiences. My wife is still pretty and is getting her figure nice again. I am very happy as a man, and would never want to be a woman. I sit at the head of the table, my wife cooks my meals and washes my clothes. If you are not King of the Castle, that is your fault. Stuff society and stuff media feminists. Why be daunted by them? They are mostly morons and men who take them seriously are bigger morons.
Gil (Steve Martin): Women have choices, and men have responsibilities.
Parenthood (1989)
That says it all.
What a thread.
There are statements made in here by married guys I can identify with, divorced guys I can identify with, guys who admit they are unhappy (who screwed up and are tough enough to admit it) I can identify with, and relatively happy I can identify with. However, I have yet to hear whether anyone has noticed that the ears and feet continue to grow.
No one is alone in their accomplishments, their failures. Maybe just the feet and ears thing.
Maybe it's because more women that age are on Prozac, or some other antidepressant that dulls the edges somewhat?
I can't imagine guys telling each other that they are on it like the women I know do. It's almost like a "you really should try it, it works wonders for me" kind of thing.
I suppose my reasons are a bit different, I'm 42 and fairly successful. I bought my first bar in Chicago at age. It was only 1,700 square feet but I made a go of it for 13 years, now I've moved onto a much larger place, in excess of 5,000 square feet. Now that I'm financially secure it's too late to have that family.
I can only dream of being "unhappy" because of child rearing problems. I chose this life so I don't have any right to complain but if I had it all to do over again......
Capitalist infidel,
It's too late to have a family? Are you kidding? You're 42 years old. I read recently that the average age of first time fathers is 32 years old. You have every chance to be a father. You don't have to do it all over again. You just have to start now looking for someone who might share your dream. I don't understand people who give up so easily on a dream that is so possible because of what they perceive to be "old age." This is ridiculous--at 42, you might make a great dad. Have more faith in yourself. There are women out there willing to risk their bodies at 60 to have babies, at 42, you are not too old.
I like the fact that my feet and ears keep growing. Maybe they will make my big fat belly look a little smaller....
(The only depressing thing is that my feet and ears aren't growing fast enough!)
Yeesh. This whole discussion is way too close to the mark for me. So many comments could have been written by me.
Capitalist infidel,
I say with encouragement: go adopt a young kid or mentor one if you feel 42 is too old to start having kids. I see young boys without any siginificant positive male presence in their life all the time. Breaks my damn heart. Sounds like you have the desire to parent, but simply need an opportunity. Opportunities are out there, even if you don't want to find an egg donor to help you initiate the process.
Earlier someone said: "Men are told that being a leader and provider for their families is "antiquated" and that in the future, we really won't "need" men."
A bit overstated, but often that message is out there. And at the same time, the people saying that are sitting in the cart we pull at great cost to our free time and mental health. Makes me want to holler.
By and large if you work reasonably hard, spend carefully, are decent at what you work at, and be careful who you invite into your life, you can achieve a modest amount of stability in your life. That stability will get you a good chunk of happiness right there. Supplement stability with the occasional thrill, and you may find things are about as good as a mortal man should expect.
Trouble is when you hit your 30s, you start to see enough people get hit by chance events (crummy boss screws someone over, spouse wrecks family life, disabled children create a lifetime of ceaseless concern along with the love, etc.) that you know no matter how careful you are, life will eventually deal you a bad card.
And if you are a man, you will be blamed by those around you when a bad card turns up in your hand. (Oh, and someone tenured is always shouting that the dealer gives you better cards than everyone else, because you are a man, white, whatever. Nice, eh?)
Living authentically, with zest, doing exactly what you want to do, is the key to happiness. (For me.) Of course, faith, adventure sports, and having survived cancer twice (and kicking its ass again now) helps in the perspective department.
In the doing exactly what you want to do department, the key question is if you want to get married and/or have kids. If it's high on the list for you, then go for it wholeheartedly. But if you're lukewarm about it, or not into it, don't do it. It seriously affects the rest of your To Do list.
Don't listen to "Society" and "The Media." Be who you are.
Know thyself...and to thine own self be true.
Middle and older age doesn't bum me out because having three cancers make those options seem like a great gift. If I kick the bucket--no regrets. If I live to 100--no regrets. A No Regrets Life is a very good thing indeed.
If you have some tips, leave a comment.
Fix the Social Security mess.
Working hard and paying into something that you know will benefit the Boomers-who-continually-waste-and-already-have-been-given-plenty-based-on-fortunte-birth-timing is enough to depress anyone currently in that age bracket. (born 1963 to 1972)
Yes, I know it's a UK study, but the effect of coming up in such a shadow of spoiled Western society ... the after effects of the Boomers tend to trickle down. For better and worse. The younger generations should not be bound to the Boomer's mistakes, but they are and nobody likes clean up duty.
GWB (and his cadre of vocal cheerleaders) is the prime example of that mentality.
Those kids born in the 80s of Boomer parents who are so optimistic and spoiled themselves? Let's see if they're in the same pickle at 35-44. Otherwise, my theory holds.
I don't think helen's more childcare duties will hold. Nor do I see too much blame "that you are the cause of the world's problems" being specifically affixed to this age group, so once again I suspect you're reading the facts with your pet theory in mind.
Remember Jesus and Mary chain, early 80s music for this age-group? "And the world could die in pain/ ah, but I wouldn't feel no shame/ cuz there's nothing holding me to blame..." It was a mess well before this group got involved, thus they aren't much bearing any collective guilt -- ask them.
I believe having regrets about life comes with being a thoughtful person.
No one can do all they would like in life--we only have so much time. So us mortals much choose among our options and occaionally wonder about once-available paths not taken.
The trick is to accept that you once had the choice, made a decision, and make the best of the choices you made. Don't let the understandable regrets about not being able to do everything overwhelm the satisfaction you get from the things you did choose.
Even a full life led with vigor should leave someone with some regrets. It is a bittersweet part of life to think about the other ways life could have played out.
I think a big factor is the loss of testosterone. Everyone is quick to jump on the emotional changes that result from a change in a woman's body chemistry (menses, pregnancy, menopause, etc.), but almost dismissive that similar effects may be observed in men.
I love my wife intensely, and vice-versa, and even though I was never a real lady-killer in the day I still get a bit bummed out sometimes that never again will anyone look at me with the same degree of excitement, wonder and passion that occasionally happened in my younger days. Likewise, I know that I, too, don't have that same fire, and I sometimes miss it intensely. I don't think I would ever do anything to jeopardize my family, but I understand how some men may be tempted to try and prove to themselves, one more time, that they are really alive.
For study purposes, I fall right in the middle of the target demographic (42).
Three stages of a man's life
1. Looking for a good woman
2. Looking for a good meal
3. Looking for a good bowel movement
I'm happy to be in stage 2.
love the jesus and mary chain.
Capitalist infidel,
I agree with Helen. I had my last two kids after age 42. Because I've slowed down somewhat myself (I do less biking, hiking, kayaking, working out, etc) and have become more mature, I've enjoyed them more so than my first two. I think mid-thirties to mid-forties is a great time to have kids. They've kept me young and more in step with popular culture also.
I'd take my late thirties and early forties over my late teens and early twenties any day of the week. I'm much happier now than I was at that point, and as far as I can judge, it just keeps getting better.
Funny thing, though, I always sort of felt that I was forty "on the inside." So I felt that in growing older I was finally growing into myself.
Well I'm 29 and pretty happy but I see where alot of you guys are coming from. I'm happy by choice, not by circumstances. Pretty much all I ever wanted growing up was a stable home, a wife who loved me and some kids. Instead I've got downsized and laid off more times than I can count, a wife who ripped out my heart to be with a man who abused her, and no kids.
Now I could let this get me down, but I figure whats the point? I can choose to be miserable or to be happy. I choose happy.
The only problem I've had since I started treating life this way is that hope for more seems to disappear. When you're miserable you have the motivation to change your situation, and the hope that it will be better. Being happy seems to take that drive away from me.
roux...
I'm fully into # 3. There is nothing quite like the warm afterglow of a good bowel movement. Too much info, perhaps. But in that stage I am, none the less.
adrian..
Water skiing barefoot gets easier every summer. And with the advent of the fleshy sails, I am hoping to no longer need a boat in a couple more years, given a breezy day.
It should be noted that the UK is in quite a malaise overall. With their generous welfare nanny state (which displaces men de facto), no wonder UK men are having a hard time.
America is not in the same rotten malaise that the UK is.
I'm thinking 50 is a good age to start hunting down and killing everyone who's ever crossed me in any way and constructing a pyramid of their skulls atop which I can be cremated along with my wife and all my posessions. There's no reason why the golden years can't be active and fulfilling.
UK men have suffered the ultimate emasculation. When a punk kid breaks into their home and attacks them with a knife they are prohibited by law from defending themselves.
P.S. - br, remind me not to go sailing with you any time soon.
P.P.S. - What's mercurior think of all this UK-bashing? Is it as bad as all that?
I think the US males are very much in a similar malaise. Outsourcing of two main male-dominated areas - high tech and manufacturing have delivered a blow to a lot of male psyches here. At the same time importing workers on the lower end as well. It's almost as if the country is saying "we don't want you..."
flash gordon --
Drag his ass outside and tell the bobbies you attacked him.
it isnt as bad, but its bad..
as a man in that same age group, i see a lot of men frustrated, by society, the pro woman pro child society, and that men seem to be treated as wage slaves, or walking wallets.
more so if your a single male, the welfare state is focused on pro woman pro child, men are considered whiners when they say its not fair, people say move, but most people cant afford to move.
it is a general decrease is the sense of self worth of men in particular.
i am happy, but only because i have the woman i want. but i am miserable due to the extra pressures thats put on me by society, the need to buy a house, when the avergae house price is about $300,000. and thats for a 1 bedroom house. there are lower priced ones.. and interest rates are HIGH.
so i have all those worries.
its bad but it could be worse. the over control of everyday life, in the uk, is taking the freedom of mind from people and they are frustrated because they cant do this, or that.
men are frequently lost, we dont know what society wants of us, some want us to be providers, some dont want us to do anything at all, some just see men as earners. and nothing more.
Capitalist infidel: You're only 42 and you think it's too late to start a family??? That's nuts!
Get yourself over to a third-world country (Latin America, SouthEast Asia, former Soviet Union, or whatever), and find yourself a twenty-something with a nice personality, and everything else will take care of itself.
I speak from first-hand experience.
but some people like me, dont want children we can give more back (i volunteer at an old persons charity), children are not the answer to everything.
just make sure you realise the benefits and the problems.
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oh look mary is back, men are lost because of hags like you mary, and your ilk. your male hating, stupidity. you and the people like you are the problem. the constant real men capitialise, real men do this real me do that. its putting pressure upon people, so what if i type in lower case. does that mean the message is any less.
in the courts men are treated like scum, women get off from serious crimes, men rot, divorces are so skewed towards women. and then you have people like you mary. continually putting down men, over the years men get sick of it. and they are depressed, and some kill themselves some, go out and kill women.
your simplisitic answer is vote with your feet. duh.. when the society is stacked against you. and you are treated like wimps, like victims and there is no sympathy. thats why men get depressed.
of course once again you wont answer the real you will go off on another rant about ladyboys, and submissives, and capital letters.
your comments mary are getting old. just like you.
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I agree with you that in the West men are poorly treated and their beliefs are constantly attacked. I do think we should strive for more equality between men and women. There will always be a group who is least happy, but we can strive to make it so that their unhappiness is at a tolerable level.
sorry about my language, but i am a little tired at the moment.
and i got a little tired with a persons comments. i dont like being bad mouthed like that.
I think the basic reason for unhappiness in Men in the 35-45 age group is de-facto polygamy.
Humans are mildly polygamous -- sex size difference is about 15% or so. Absent strong social controls humans seem to revert back to polygamy.
Women want high-status men, and will share them. This seems to be increasing, by birth rate indicators. Even Tunisia, Turkey, Iran, Algeria have birth rates below replacement (2.1) and averaging 1.7. World-wide women have more freedom and economic independence (good things) but don't need to trade off on status for dependability. Which is a bad thing IMHO.
There will by definition only be a few high-status guys.
IMHO the process goes like this -- women pursue high-status guys in the twenties, men delude themselves they have a chance in this market (a great many don't, and by great many I mean around 40% or so). Women marry or have kids with high-status guys or those who can *appear* high status. Think Scott Peterson who while married had an affair with some gal who knew he was married. An *EXTREME* case but indicative of status as a decisive choice in women's selection.
By the time a guy hits 35 and continuing onwards through 45, the realization hits that his status is not and will not become high enough to attract a mate, while the sex drive remains. The few women on the marriage market already have kids which is not attractive from a reproductive point of view -- raising another man's kids. The false view that their remains enough time and opportunity (in a man's twenties) to raise status enough to marry is exposed.
I think the statement that "women don't need men" is partly true, what is really being said is that women don't need men who are not high-status, and society has not dealt with the fallout of no reproduction for men.
Biologically, human beings would be assumed to be hard-wired to reproduce. I know science is icky and awful and it's a point of religious feeling to deny that evolution applies to human beings, but it boggles my mind how it would not. And how natural selection would somehow make reproduction *NOT* a basic component of human needs.
Other species get along fine with polygamy, but in humans it tends to produce societies like West Africa (30% of marriages polygamous), Arabia (around 15% on the peninsula) and the general effect of polygamy is violence and instability from the men priced out of reproduction.
At 35, I had just divorced a drug addict wife, filed bankruptcy, and had sole custody of a toddler. I was working twelve hours a day at an acedemic position, and taking home $1600.00 on a good month. I was driving a '72 custom cruiser.
I remember being pretty disaffected.
Three years later after lots of casual affairs and boozing, I was absolutely miserable. I decided to turn it around
Man, I miss all the good stuff...the Dustbowl, the Potato Famine, the Great Depression, mary......
You know, bugs, if roux's Number 3 gets real good later on, I'll be a human jet ski!
At about 40 your libido is taking a noticeable nose dive and you're getting the first real glimmer of your mortality.
There may be other factors that help or hurt - but none of them hold a candle to these two events.
At 40, my libido increased and I've never been worried about my mortality. Nah, it's a combination of job, wife, kids and your self-determination and dreams being crushed. The worse part isn't thinking you're trapped, but realizing you are.
'72 custom cruiser.
I had a '74 for a while. Terrible gas mileage, finicky engine, but what a cool car that was.
joe -- '68 Barracuda with bent rear window.
High school car was a 72 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme with a 350 engine. It got 12 MPG but gas was cheap.
Cool cars, good friends, no cares in the world!
Want to make middle aged men happier? Buy us the cars of our youth, fully restored, of course!
I wouldn't call myself miserable, but at the ripe old age of 40 I am doing some serious analysis of my life and trying to figure out what to do with the next 40 years.
There seems to be too many things to do and not enough time and/or money to do them, especially with kids, a mortgage, and other normal responsibilities of adulthood.
I'm not buying into the idea that modern feminists are making middle age men miserable because ultimately we are responsible for our attitudes and how we respond to others.
Personally, I just avoid unpleasant people, including the man haters of the world. Life's too precious to let those types of people weigh me down.
I'm more interested in finding that passion project for the second half of life, such as starting or buying my own business. Or, selling everything I own, buying a sailboat, and sailing around the world with my family. Of course, Mrs. Dogwood is having some difficulty buying into that plan!
I would argue that the middle years can be a disappointment for many men because we simply get bored and need new adventures, but accumulated responsibilities make it very difficult, if not impossible, to take the necessary risks.
but over 30 odd years of being told by the press, by society that men are worthless, being constantly told and shown to be buffoons. Especially with the mega media in todays world.
it all has an effect. it turns men into doubters, we doubt ourselves, we get conflicting messages, we dont know what to do anymore.
if we work, we dont have any life but work, if we dont we are losers, if we stay at home if you have children you are looked down upon. it goes on.
no matter what we men do we are demonised, we cant win. some just give up.. and end it all. (and i have felt this myself but i dont want to let THE BUGGERS WIN) some men go out and commit violence, and we get blamed for that.
being a man in todays world isnt as good as it should be. people should be treated the same.
I have to agree with dogwood, you are in control of your own emotions. I left behind a very bad marriage. That was it, left behind. No matter what she said or thought, it didn't make me feel that way about myself and doesn't.
It's much like when women complain that society makes them see themselves as not attractive. Nope. Only they have that ability, Cosmo doesn't.
"Put the magazine down and slowly step away."
mercurior -- Your third para seems very dark. Who is this we you speak of? I was working during the time I made my stunt show, so obviously I didn't just work. Also raised my daughter by myself then.
If men are unjustly demonized, call it out. A friend of my daughter's visited recently. While watching Peter and the Wolf with the kids, she mumbled during the wolf's dance below the tree "Another example of male manipulation." I looked at her. "Really? Explain how." She flushed and couldn't, of course. Peter and the friggin' Wolf. Call them out like the marys and cammys they are.
Your last para is true, but then, the world has never been fair, it's just a place where people live.
"Put the magazine down..."
Perhaps the worst thing in life that can happen to a man is a loss of passion for what drives him. Loss of passion for anything, everything. No matter what that passion may be.
If that passion was at one time the love of your life, it can take sometime to navigate out of the woods. For some. For me.
The slow and almost latent changes that transform one from a meaningful specific into a wandering generality eventually suck the passion out. I mean, one still arrives, but where that is and how one got there can remain a fog.
I wallowed in coulda, woulda, shoulda for a long time.
Merc,
I don't care that every show on the tube portrays husbands as bumbling fools, because I know how much I'm valued by my wife and kids.
I'm also handy with tools and can do anything around the house that needs done, so I shrug off the media's portrayal of husbands as incompetents.
we get conflicting messages, we dont know what to do anymore.
Just do what you believe is right for you and your family. Stop worrying about what everyone else thinks or expects. I was taught to open doors for women, and I will do so for the rest of my life even if doing so earns me the ocassional scowl of disapproval from a feminist.
if we work, we dont have any life but work, if we dont we are losers, if we stay at home if you have children you are looked down upon. it goes on.
Its all about balance. I work very hard at keeping work at work so I can spend time with my family. As for being a stay at home dad, if it works for your family, great, do it and don't worry about what other people think about the arrangement. Its your life, not theirs. Personally, I ask my wife at least once a month if she wants to go back to work so I can be a stay at home dad. No dice, so far.
no matter what we men do we are demonised, we cant win.
Yep, life's not fair. Never has been. Never will be. So live according to your own values and find a spouse who shares those values, then stop worrying about what the anonymous world thinks about your decisions.
When you think about it, there are very few people's opinions in this world you need to care about. Your family, your boss, and your friends. Everybody else can just mind their own business, and your life isn't their business.
So live your life with confidence and make sure you have fun along the way.
Outsourcing of two main male-dominated areas - high tech and manufacturing have delivered a blow to a lot of male psyches here. At the same time importing workers on the lower end as well. It's almost as if the country is saying "we don't want you..."
I find this a really interesting comment. Men often study and enjoy economics and identify themselves with the business overlords; then, when they realize that studying econ doesn't *make* them a business overlord, and the business overlords act according to their own best interests (seeking the most affordable labor, efficiency, maximizing shareholder profit), economics starts to hurt. The poor outsourced guy realizes that he's just a cog in the machine, just like all the other people he used to look down on who didn't know econ.
Go back to your econ: what can I choose to do for a living that can't be outsourced?
Hint: what is booming in popularity is working with actual THINGS that are too big or inefficient to ship abroad to fix. e.g. diesel mechanics on mining, agricultural, or construction equipment.
Re the last sentence, it's not that you aren't wanted, it's that you are too expensive. Your labor cost is a cost to be controlled on a spreadsheet. It isn't personal. Compete with third worlders if you want; or choose something offshoring-proof.
yes, i was just putting the argument for the uk men, i happen to be one and i have many many male friends. and they say the same sort of things.
what i said was based on all these stories.
i have a happy life, i am content in my life, but i can see why others feel how they do.
i do shout out about male hatred, on this or other boards, even personally to people. but i get called a woman hater, i get called sexist for wanting equality. it is damned hard to keep fighting. its like trying to empty a boat with a sieve.. you can just about keep it level.. but its hard.. some men give up, and kill themselves.. some get angry and go out and hurt people because of the pressure.
but it does affect how men are seen, we may know how good we are, but constant poking can cause you to start to doubt yourself.
as i said i am happy, i am a minor mens rights activist, (only for equality)..
but it does affect how men are seen, we may know how good we are, but constant poking can cause you to start to doubt yourself.
In my case, only if the poking is coming from people whose opinions I value and respect.
Everyone else can go get a hobby and leave me alone.
but the constant, they know better by governments, by society, by your friends who listen to what the government says, what society says.. it is a wearying life.
and you do start to doubt yourself, and you can lose your way, it happens to a lot of men, some cope, some are not affected as much like you dogwood, but you are a minority.
nearly 40 years of being told things as you were growing up, like men are scum etc.. it sinks into the brain of the young and infests them.. so now wonder people are lost today.
I have been looking for a country that wants my savings and earnings. I would leave the usa in a heartbeat if I could find a country that respects and welcomes a hard working white male. Know of any? tx, anon15319@gmail.com
America needs a new constitution.
Men achieve - feminists complain.
Feminist morality - abortion.
In my mid thirties, I felt I was topping out professionally as a computer programmer. I couldn't see doing that another 30 years. As my expertise grew, I ended up on longer and bigger projects, and it was getting harder and harder to get motivated.
So, I looked for something else to do. I tried real estate and got burned. Then, around my 40th, I became a (patent) lawyer. It started out bad, as I went from a nice consulting income to nothing as a starting lawyer. But I ended up, by 50, making a lot of money. Then, I took a chance, jumped to a firm, made more money, and then got hammered in the .com bust. Back to square one. It has taken me about five years to build back up to a decent living.
Meanwhile, marriage, fatherhood, divorce, child support, etc. Some nice but very eccentric girlfriends. I am not sure if I just attract that sort of women, or women are going through their own identity crises.
Testosterone didn't really start dropping until my early to mid 50s. All of a sudden, I wasn't driven to go out and meet women every Friday night.
What seemed to be happening to me from my mid thirties through my mid forties was that all of a sudden, choices were closing up. Decisions I had made decades before were starting to really limit what I could do with the rest of my life. And I think that it is this view of what is going to happen to us over the remaining 25-35 years of our working lives that really does a mind job on us. Now, in my mid 50s, I am reconciled to whatever happens. But I wasn't back then.
So, in my family, two of us boys switched from engineering to patent law around 40, and a third one of us bought himself a fast sports car and drove it just as fast. And just to prove that he hadn't gotten over that by 50, he bought an even faster one.
A start for fixing this might be to stop accusing a 35-45 yo man who buys a motorcycle or sports car or boat of having a mid-life crisis, as though it's a mental disease. Maybe they just enjoy these things. Maybe they've deserve these things after years of responsibility. Maybe they'd like to enjoy life a little more before they drop dead like so many of their friends and colleagues. I started motocrossing again at age 43 after 23 years of no motorcycles and coincidentally started having a lot more fun.
Go for the fun men, because no one else will do it for you.
Good point Comrade!
I'm getting close to the point where I can financially afford to buy a new motorcycle, which is at the top of my 2008 shopping list.
I may be 40, but that doesn't mean I have to stop having fun.
Dear American Man,
With this note, I'd like to look each of you in the eye and thank you with all of my heart.
You are the finest of human beings. Like my father, my brother, my husband, my bosses, my workmates, you are big-hearted, and big enough to allow your female counterparts to join you in further shaping the world that our foreFATHERS made possible for us all. The world of steel and complex systems of commerce and governance that could only come from your side of the chromosome spectrum.
Thank you for the world we live in now, and thank you for being you. This nasty, mean-spirited tone will pass and our children will look back and know your unheralded good.
Sincerely, C
Thanks, cf. It's about time. We think we're good guys, just like you think you're superior.
I don't know your first language, or how much freedom you have. But it's cinch you'd have less freedom and would be speaking a different language without the American male.
For each his dreams and abilities. To each, the freedom and opportunity to pursue them. To succeed. To fail. To try again and again. With NO apologies to Marx. I have a hard time finding too much fault with that. If we are in a position of that ever being threatened, who will everyone else in the world be mad at or jealous of?
Sometimes I wish we'd bring all the boys home too. Build big fences and mount big guns on them, and screw the rest of you. No solicitations without an appointment. Then watch what happens as time goes on. We go "over there" because we don't want those things happening "over here".
The Democrats (actually, almost all of D.C.) seem to have forgotten that.
But first, I would like to invite all those Americans who think this country sucks to go find a better place to live, all thing considered, and send back a report from their new home.
Oh, cf?
Swell up.
Marriage equals misery for men.
As a 47 year old married male, I think marriage as it exists in the English speaking world is the cause of our misery. Getting married is the biggest mistake most men make in life. It changed me from a happy 36 year old single guy to the depressed beast of burden I am today.
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