Mary Winkler could go free today (thanks to the reader who emailed me the link):
Five months in the county jail and and two months of therapy for shooting her husband in the back; it's pathetic. But just as pathetic is the idea that these children should be given back to the woman who killed their father.
After spending a total of seven months in custody, the Tennessee woman who fatally shot her preacher husband in the back will be released as early as today.
Mary Winkler, a 33-year-old mother of three girls, is expected to be freed from a mental health facility today or Wednesday, lawyer Steve Farese told CNN.
Farese said his client will not talk to the news media because she continues to wage a legal battle to win custody of her girls and faces a $2 million civil suit filed by the parents of of her slain husband, Matthew Winkler.
Mary Winkler likely will return to work at the dry cleaners in McMinnville, Tennessee, where she worked before the trial, Farese said.
Winkler served about five months in county jail as she awaited trial, then spent two months undergoing therapy at a Tennessee mental health facility following her conviction for voluntary manslaughter.
Five months in the county jail and and two months of therapy for shooting her husband in the back; it's pathetic. But just as pathetic is the idea that these children should be given back to the woman who killed their father.
posted by Helen at 3:01 PM
63 Comments:
Did they prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she was physically and emotionally, sexually abused in her marriage?
but dont you realise she killed her husband and thats not a crime, that all men are somehow, defective, wimps, or trying to be ladyboys (jealous of them).
and dont you realise that this man did deserve death because 55 million years ago, men oppressed women, so it was justified..
and all women are nurturers, and could never hurt their own children, as men are always monsters.
::sarcasm off::
http://tinyurl.com/2542pg
mother with a severe mental illness killed her two children after being allowed unsupervised access despite the warnings of their father, a court heard yesterday.
I'm just saying, abuse can drive people to maddness. But I don't know the real story, just what the article says.
but to shoot someone in the back while he was sleeping, after getting a shotgun and loading it. smacks of planning.
and yes there is no evidence at all about abuse, only hearsay. its quite common that the allegation of abuse is actually a get out of jail free or much earlier. just imagine a man killed a woman like that.. would he be out in 7 months..
I guess it depends on whether he was being abused...
http://drhelen.blogspot.com/2007/06/what-210-whole-days-in-jail-just-for.html check this post, with links.
her daughter never saw any
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/04/17/national/a010137D76.DTL
http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/family/mary_winkler/index.html
still no evidence of abuse..
cammy -- That was quite funny. You forgot the sarcasm html tag though.
maybe there will be an appeal. people get away with shit all the time!
http://www.justicemonitor.ca/darrenadamursel.htm
I dunno exactly how accurate the justice monitor is tho. obviously lots of reserch needed.
Sounds normal to me.
A Southern jury will generally take a Liddle Lady's word for it if she says her husband was bad or she thought he was a burglar.
I'm convinced that dentist in Texas who ran over her husband repeatedly on videotape would have gotten probation if she hadn't had her step daughter in the car. That showed bad taste and that she wasn't a Liddle Lady.
It's a part of being southern, like mildew. Learn to live with it, or not.
cammy -
Mary Winkler was in the U.S., Mursel was in Canada. Take a poll here and you'd find most likely to a man, those here would want him fried. I'd pull the switch.
Find a comparable rate of men getting such light sentences in the U.S. if you wish to draw an analogy.
Someone put this cunt with a shotgun back in jail before she kills me for hurting her feelings.
Cammy - they never provided any "proof" of abuse, just claims which just about every woman who kills her husband or kids does. Don't you know that only abused, disturbed women kill but any man who kills is plain old evil.
I wonder if any guy will be dumb enough to take Mary out on a date. And her kids will probably develop sleep disorders. I'd sure as hell be scared to go to sleep with her in the house.
Women can do anything they want! WHEEEE!
Women can do anything they want! WHEEEE!
Married women with children, anyway.
oh, so this is a purely US site?
wow, have you ever noticed how many men in the US kill their wives and then themselves?! The amount of cases that come up on google are shocking.
The defense team certainly did an effective job in convincing the jury that the shooter was the true victim and that the incident should be viewed as an accident. I would think that the next high profile case her attorneys take will involve a much higher hourly rate.
A human being is dead and all she gets in a long rest in jail. That's shocking.
Cammy,
The difference is the men are dead and there is no one to prosecute. A woman who kills her husband gets an average of 6.7 years in prison in the US and is acquitted more often. A man in the US who kills his wife gets an average of 16.7 years and is acquitted less often. There is none of this "she abused me" for men's defense (and I don't think this is a bad thing) even though women participate in about half of the domestic violence in this country.
askdrehelen,
you don't think a large amount of women who kill their husbands are being abused?
do you have any statistics of men kill wives to women kill husbands ?
Dr helen, before you argue with cammy, let me explain her thinking:
Society ought to take a criminal-justice approach to men who commit crimes but take a social-services approach to women who commit crimes. Because of equality and stuff.
That would be the logical point she is driving at.
Mary Winkler, a 33-year-old mother of three girls, is expected to be freed from a mental health facility today...
Well, clearly she is ready to resume her role in society of law-abiding productive citizen, caring mother and spouse. Oh, forget the spouse. Sorry...
cammy --
oh, so this is a purely US site?
Why no, but the case under discussion is. Will you next be throwing in Sharia killings in Afghanistan?
you don't think a large amount of women who kill their husbands are being abused?
do you have any statistics of men kill wives to women kill husbands ?
Her -- and your -- thoughts on the subject are irrelevant. Only the stats are.
Perhaps you could do some footwork of your own instead of asking leading questions and then requesting others to do the work.
hmm. I thought the point of blog conversation was to educate. my mistake.
she continues to wage a legal battle to win custody of her girls and faces a $2 million civil suit filed by the parents of of her slain husband, Matthew Winkler.
Well we can hope that there will be some justice in these two cases.
you don't think a large amount of women who kill their husbands are being abused?
No, I don't. I also think that women who murder their husbands use the "battered wife" syndrome as an excuse to kill, as it plays on the juries sympathy and modern feminist prejudices about men.
Most women who use this defense are not acting in what used to be understood as classic "self defense" during the abusive moment, like "He was beating me, but I got away and got ahold of a gun and I was forced to shoot him." It is usually done when the alleged abuser is asleep.
When men do this, they are cold blooded killers. But when women do this, it is to be excused, usually by blaming a man. They turn their violent crimes into victimhood. Battered Wife Syndrome, Post Partum Depression, Premenstral Syndrome. All are used to either mitigate or outright excuse women murderers from being held accountable for their crimes.
I guess I could be considered a "traditional" feminist because I believe that it should equal opportunity under the law. I was raised by two strong parental figures who always said "If you're going to be a lumberjack, you have to learn to carry your end of the log" and I have applied that to my entire life. I don't think she should have been released now. I'm not willing to discount the idea that she might have been abused but I am also not willing to discount the idea that it was pre-meditated either.
Cammy,
"do you have any statistics of men kill wives to women kill husbands?"
Stats are counted differently in the US and it is hard to find out the exact number of wives and husbands killed. More wives are killed at the present time although in the 1970's, the number of men killed was much higher than it is today. Here is some information from the Bureau of Justice to start:
A third of family murders involved a female as the killer. In sibling murders, females were 15% of killers, and in murders of parents, 18%. But in spouse murders, women represented
41% of killers. In murders of their offspring, women predominated, accounting for 55% of killers.
* Among black marital partners, wives were just about as likely to kill their husbands as husbands were to kill their wives: 47% of the victims of a spouse were husbands and 53% were wives. Among
white victims murdered by their spouse, wives were much less likely to be the killers: 38% of the victims were husbands and 62% were wives.
http://ovc.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/mf.txt
Also, if you wish to educate yourself, take a look at this article by Harvard attorney Alan Dershowitz at:
http://www.uiowa.edu/~030116/158/articles/dershowitz3.htm
I think cammy's just asking questions, not trying to piss anyone off. Helen provided some answers. Good.
well if this blog was just about the US, then since i am british, but the problem is global really. western world mostly.
look at bobbit, look at all the severing the penis stories.. if a man was to cut a woman then the world would shake, yet.. when a woman cuts a man, thats somehow funny?
this is in the UK as well.
Bugs and to all:
Unfortunately, Cammy is here just to piss people off, not to "educate" herself as she claims.
I read on an Ottawa chat site posted below (where she calls herself the frog queen) a message from her stating that she enjoys trolling this blog and others that she perceives as "men's rights" blogs and tries to upset people. Apparently, she says she is bored. To all-- please ignore all comments from Cammy. She is a self-admitted troll:
http://www.punkottawa.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=67030
Mecurior:
You are welcome here to discuss topics about the UK or whatever else is brought up. Although I am in the US, it is terrific to have readers from other countries to give us perspective.
i see the problems you highlight is more of a global/western situation. and that affects every one of us.. and because we are in different societies, we may see things that the others cant see.. thats why i like posting on here (as well as i have lots of american friends and family and my fiancee as well ;-))
i dont really see myself as british, or you as americans, we are all humans.. and this affects all humans..
What no one mentioned is the implication that this is all giving a women a greenlight to kill their husbands/boyfriends and the fear men are going to start having culturally of getting into any situation with a woman. The Paranoia.
Claudine Longet got 30 days for killing Spider Sabich, a good man who treated everyone well and was loved by many.
Good detective work Dr. H. Linking to Cammy's blog from the information that you provide and viewing the number of post comments left by readers, it may be a jealously issue as well--or maybe Cam is satisfied with his/her silent support.
I checked out that message board and some of them would probably enjoy men bashing sites. I liked the guy who said he trolls on that message board.
Helen - Just giving cammy the benefit of the doubt. To me, her comments actually sounded much more reasonable and polite than those of the typical troll. Either I'm getting jaded or cammy needs to work on her trolling technique.
Interesting bit of research, though. Congratulations!
The murderess is guilty of using excessive force. All she needed to do to protect herself and her children was to LEAVE. She should be getting 25 to life.
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in a court of legal LAW, oj simpson was found INNOCENT.
are you saying mary that men are worth less than women. that men deserve to die more than women.
would you like to see all men shot in the back of their heads while they sleep.. to stop the possible murder of one woman..
I would say that most of us here think that OJ did it. He just got away with it. Maybe if there'd have been a mob of Beverly Hills socialites that torched Nordstroms and Saks, the feds would have stepped in to do a "civil rights" prosecution.
Ms Winkler got away with it too, for the most part.
yes but legally he was found innocent, even if he did it or not, he was found innocent. and he should be treated as such. regardless of if he "got" away with it.
lizzie borden was found innocent of the crime. yet.. she is blamed. by a non legal world. innocent until proven guilty. which in a lot of cases today it is guilty until proven innocent but then you get away with it..
in scotland there is a 3rd option called not proven. which i think is a more sensible thing for oj and lizzie borden.
at least thats what i think. a person is innocent until found guilty and if they arent.. then they are innocent.
I had heard of that Scottish 3rd option and it makes sense.
I also think there should be a "guilty, but insane" verdict available.
Mercurior --
yes but legally he was found innocent, even if he did it or not, he was found innocent. and he should be treated as such.
If you mean by society, then bullshit. The bastard slashed two people to death. I see him and I'll act just like he's a killer who got away with it.
I am under no obligation to treat him as if he didn't kill two people half his size with a large knife and wasn't found with their blood in his car and on his gloves.
oj's pissed because he isn't white, among other things. That's my take.
I don't care who gets mad at me about that statement, it's what I believe.
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but then Oligonicella, where does it end. he may be famous, what about men falsely accused, of rape, they get brought to trial and are released when its found to be lies or no evidence.
should they be hounded because they may have done it.
you have to be careful about justice, theres many cases where an accusation is made, and its destroyed a mans life. and its patently not true.
does that mean his life is any less destroyed.
no, in a court of law, and amongst his peers, they decided he was innocent of the crime. and he should be treated as such. whether its because he paid for an acquittal, or whatever. he is still legally innocent of that crime. change the story to everyday joe blogs. he is accused of murder, and the courts acquit him. do you say he got away with it, do you beleive his freedom is less. you may personally hate him, but you cant say he is guilty when american (and british) justice says he isnt.
does he deserve to be punished by innuendo, by comments, thats what destroyed a lot of people during the mccarthy witch hunts, and in salem.
once again in the eyes of the legal system of america, he is innocent.
Mercurior --
... they get brought to trial and are released when its found to be lies or no evidence in the OJ case.
Um, what world are you talking about? That happens, but not all the time. You might point out the lies and lack of evidence.
I'm talking OJ, you're talking an abstract joe. You can't do that with any honesty. I read/listened to/saw reams of evidence, the DNA of which was especially clear. He did it; jackasses let him go. Give me that kind of info on Joe and I'll come to my conclusions.
Concrete and abstract -- apples and oranges.
Yes, dear sir, I can indeed say I think he is guilty. You are conflating legal decisions with my personal ones. No can do.
once again in the eyes of the legal system of america, he is innocent.
Perhaps you missed the 33.5M civil judgment.
civil law is not legal law. the burden of proof in civil cases is much less than in legal cases.
did he do it. possibly, but people should behave by what the courts say. the golden thread of justice as the uk barristers say, its innocent until proven guilty. and if its not proven, then they are innocent.
Helen,
Thanks for continuing to pursue subjects like this one. And thanks for admitting that you listen to Rush Limbaugh!
aa/rh
Although I have heard clinical explanation after clinical explanation, I still don't understand why people don't leave abusive situations. One of the mysteries of life.
Here is another article about Mary Winkler and her PTSD diagnosis. I guess I didn't keep up with the trial as well as I would have liked because I didn't hear about her having PTSD. There is a part of me that is outraged by this because my husband had to fight with military doctors for 5 months to get put on a treatment regimen for PTSD after arriving home from Iraq (Returned in January-just started therapy in mid June). I can tell you that 2 months was not nearly enough time for him; maybe it was for her but I have my doubts.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20322236/site/newsweek/
Mercurior --
So you believe you have the authority to tell people how to behave?
but dont you realise she killed her husband and thats not a crime, that all men are somehow, defective, wimps, or trying to be ladyboys (jealous of them).
and dont you realise that this man did deserve death because 55 million years ago, men oppressed women, so it was justified..
and all women are nurturers, and could never hurt their own children, as men are always monsters.
::sarcasm off::
Apparently, you don't quite believe what you're now saying.
Ever hear the term "miscarriage of justice"? It's a real thing, both on conviction and acquittal. OJ and Winkler's cases were miscarriages.
Remember always, your logic dictates that all persons found guilty are guilty and should be always treated such even if they are in actual fact innocent. The coin has two sides.
Tuff if you find my opinion and reactions to those killers beyond your pale.
Three observations: One, I am an abuse survivor.....who as a child, was viciously beaten and psychologically tortured by both my mother and father, so I'm tired of this nonesense that makes all men monsters and all women victims - its plain old fashioned sexism of the most repugnant order. Second, the law does not treat men and women equally in murder cases, and until we have the courage to examine this fact, the inequity will continue to go on unchallenged. Third, I've been in therapy and group settings for nearly twenty years after leaving home and the abusive environment. You would have to be ignorant, or come from the South (spare me the letters, my family is from the Carolinas,) to accept the idea that one could be "cured" of traumatic stress disorder in only 67 days. What's next? "Mc Shrink" drive-thrus? And now she is trying to gain custody of the children she has permanently scarred by murdering their dad? I guarantee you European courts would not be so blase, or so lenient
I have never met a woman who didn't 'enjoy' posting her opinion about everything... and, well... since you are also a forensic pathologist, I am in AWE.
Consider this: If every woman in the middle east were to kill an abusive husband would there be any need for diplomacy and the ten US Army divisions floundering in that political sink hole? Its the fault of the millions of stupid females who permit men to define them by their vagina (what's left of it...) and who force upon them the severely restricting intellectual disposition of a sand lizard.
The Pastor's wife has been freed by the COURT... after a careful review of all the facts unavailable to the public. Everyone screams about the horror of judges being too liberal and lenient until they face the bench as a suspect. Then they pray for a liberal judge.
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