Tuesday, July 03, 2007

Comments on Domestic Violence

Digg linked to my post on women being twice as likely to hit as men. There are some interesting comments from many of the readers over there, some sad, some puzzled and some sexist. The truth is, many men are hit by their significant others, and no one wants to talk about it. Women often expect men to have total restraint and take the blows and abuse without a whimper. This is a form of psychological abuse, but somehow it is only seen that way if it is committed against a woman. Men actually have feelings too, believe it or not -- and punching, hitting and kicking is a poor way to communicate with them.

I am glad people are talking about it, but talk is cheap, and action is better. Perhaps it is time to start realizing that women can also display acts of aggression that are psychologically damaging to men in ways that are deeply wounding. Women should be taught the boundaries of aggression in their interactions with men and realize that a punch thrown or a knife tossed is not funny or cute, even though it's often portrayed that way in the movies.

74 Comments:

Blogger Yamantaka said...

I've always found it amusing that everyone needs to agree that women can be plenty aggressive-- to serve in the Persian Gulf, to be a DEA agent in lawless areas, to be a hard-ass Wall St. executive-- but not aggressive in a way that could hurt anyone.

8:23 AM, July 03, 2007  
Blogger Dana said...

Aren't male victims more likely to end up in the hospital, too? It has been a long time since I read about it, but the case was made that while it is difficult to know for sure how many men vs. women live in abusive relationships, men end up in the hospital more because women use knives and throw dishes.

Yes, a source would be nice, but I haven't one.

9:57 AM, July 03, 2007  
Blogger Peregrine John said...

Men have feelings? And can feel pain?! G'waaaahn. Now you're just making things up.

10:21 AM, July 03, 2007  
Blogger MikeT said...

I can't help but think that the reason that women behave like this is because they know there are few consequences to being violent. Men know that if they are like this, they risk injury, paralysis or death.

Perhaps the best thing that could happen to a woman who behaves like this would be for someone, of either gender, to nearly beat them to death in retaliation for initiating force without cause. I think a biological case could be made for that, since people tend to adjust their attitudes toward freely dishing out violence, when the threat of imminent harm is realistic.

12:47 PM, July 03, 2007  
Blogger Myrtle Hocklemeier said...

Time to go back and reread Jane Goodalls observations about how female chimps in the wild learn the boundries of violence. How exactly does this work with other species?

12:56 PM, July 03, 2007  
Blogger ditchthebitch said...

"Perhaps it is time to start realizing that women can also display acts of aggression that are psychologically damaging to men in ways that are deeply wounding."

What is truly surreal and bizarre is that anyone should ever have to make a statement like this. This statement is no different than saying, (*ahem*) "It is time to start to realize that sometimes that dogs can bite and when they do, it hurts."

Look, the whole reason this is such a 'taboo' subject is because women MAKE it a taboo for the obvious reasons. What a conjob! People act like they've never lived with a woman before, never had a mother, sister, etc., and just crawled out from underneath a rock! Everyone knows that women can be the most horrendous, horrible people to deal with on the face of the planet because of their horribly warped values, how they 'demand' respect (along with everything else) instead of earning it, and just their overall deranged emotional imbalance. Welcome to Planet Earth.

12:58 PM, July 03, 2007  
Blogger br549 said...

Sheesh, and I shaved my legs for THIS???

1:03 PM, July 03, 2007  
Blogger Cham said...

Miket says, "Perhaps the best thing that could happen to a woman who behaves like this would be for someone, of either gender, to nearly beat them to death in retaliation for initiating force without cause."

Um, Miket, the last time I looked we have a judicial system in place. Men also initiate force without cause, so do children, do we get to beat them nearly to death too?

If the men that women hit don't press charges, don't call the police and don't stand up for themselves, then don't expect the women that hit them to stop. Humans tend to behave badly unless there are consequences. So if nobody is initiating consequences female violence on men won't stop. I mentioned this in the preceding post and another commenter said that he would never admit to being hit by a woman because his balls were still intact, or some such thing. Men are going to have to quit assuming their manhood is in question if they wish to stop this abuse.

1:10 PM, July 03, 2007  
Blogger Bugs said...

br - I hope you hit those armpits while you were at it.

1:30 PM, July 03, 2007  
Blogger 1charlie2 said...

Cham,

Actually, yes That is to say, if one supports beating one gender in response to being attacked, then one must support it when the situation is reversed.

My earlier comments in a different post about raising my boys to not accept violence would be the same if they were girls.

But I don't agree with Miket that such a serious beat-down is necessary. Usually, "tit for tat" works pretty well. And if it's early preemption, it stops before it gets out of hand.

I think what Helen has been spotlighting is that this research goes against the apparent bias that men are the aggressors and women the victims. And this has certainly been perpetuated in some corners. It still is, in some ways. Certainly in the popular culture -- see many movies and shows -- and it's very much alive in some Family Courts.

To the extent that this occurs, it's harmful. and to the extent that society -- all of us -- allow it to occur, we are all culpable.

Take, for example, "rape shield laws." These were put into place to "protect innocent victims" from the "she asked for it" stigma. A special class of protection (possibly in violation of constitutional protection of equal standing under the law) were put in place to make it easier for women to bring forth rape charges. Witness the William Kennedy Smith trial some years ago -- his name was everywhere, hers was unmentionable. The rationale was "protecting the innocent."

I hate that law -- it encourages victimhood and only preserves the stereotypes. But let's use it for a moment.

Let's take your words (which are eminently reasonable, by the way) and make a few minor changes:

"If the women that men rape don't press charges, don't call the police and don't stand up for themselves, then don't expect the men that rape them to stop. Humans tend to behave badly unless there are consequences. So if nobody is initiating consequences male violence on women won't stop. [A woman once] said that she would never admit to being raped by a man because her reputation was still intact, or some such thing. Women are going to have to quit assuming their reputation is in question if they wish to stop this abuse. So abolish the rape shield law NOW."

While I tend to agree with your assessment that men must bring charges and start protecting themselves, can you imagine the outcry if a District Attorney ever uttered the quote I just constructed above ?

Yet all I did was change the genders. That such an outcry would appear in many quarters illustrates the double-standard.

So maybe male victims of domestic could use some societal understanding at least. Which is why the publication of these sorts of stats is pretty darned important.

I don't want shield laws -- I hate the darned things and want them all abolished -- but a significant airing that

"women hit too" and
"men hurt too" and
"violence is not funny"

is a good start.

1:54 PM, July 03, 2007  
Blogger reality2007 said...

From my own personal experience, women iniate virtually all the violence against them. I have only known of maybe 4 men in my 44 years that vould truly fit
the profile of the mythical
'abuser' who just walks in the
door and POW! punches his wife
in the because he had a bad day.

We all know that women taunt,
threaten, make insane ultimatums,
blacmail, backstab- the list goes
on forever. Until our society
begins to make women accountable for their own words and actions in the home, women will continue to find out the hard way that you get what you give.

I don't go around threatening men, blackmailing them or taunt them. Why? Because I am smart. I do not want to be shot or beaten to death. I've often wondered
from just casual observation if
somewhere in the twisted and
tangled psychology of women
there isn't some kind of death
wish when it comes to men. This
is exactly what Darren Mack's
wife was doing to him- threatening to take everything away from him and laughing in his face- then she found out the hard way what happens when you do that. Sure, he'll be punished, but she's DEAD. How long does it take to kill someone? 1 second?

All the restraining orders and
laws in the world are not going to
stop a man from killing his wife if he is pushed far enough. It's all about being a ethical person and treating people with respect.
Women no longer respect men.

My advice to women? When it comes to your husband, follow the same rules as pedestrians as in the DMV handbook. "As a pedestrian, you have the right of way in traffic, but we do not suggest stepping out in front of a speeding vehicle."

Notice how more and more restrictive DV laws have done
nothing? That is because the
problem is with women. Period.

1:58 PM, July 03, 2007  
Blogger TMink said...

I just do not buy it that women intitiate all or even most of the violence against them or that they are worse than men are.

Sorry. Do I haver to surrender my card to the man's club?

Trey

2:40 PM, July 03, 2007  
Blogger Adam Becker Sr said...

If you are a man who is receiving such abuse, or you know someone who is, I recommend Phillip Cook's book Abused Men.

4:03 PM, July 03, 2007  
Blogger reality2007 said...

"I just do not buy it that women intitiate all or even most of the violence against them"

Then you're not paying attention. Wake up.

In addition, a very large part of the problem with the way society views women as somehow harmless is based on women's 'soft' appearance, 'soft' skin, or general feminine approach to life, or if she is 'pretty' with pretty teeth, then she is 'good' and not capable of anything 'bad' much less violence.

This is EXTREMELY childish, and needs to stop yesterday. All of the fake sugar coated sweetness of a woman is all part of a woman's little dog and pony act to get away with murder. If you don't know that already then you have a LOOOOONNNGG way to go in learning about basic human female behavior.

4:11 PM, July 03, 2007  
Blogger br549 said...

Seems the matter is, everyone seems to be trying to lump men on one scale and women on the other.

It is individuals who are not wrapped tight, of either sex, who initiate these altercations. Now why one stays when they know in their heart they should bail is another thing. We have all heard of the term co-dependent. Or if you have not, read up on it. Long and short, are we not speaking of this?

Oh. Dread locks on the pits, bugs.

4:36 PM, July 03, 2007  
Blogger Peregrine John said...

I think the problem comes in a strange, expanded notion of "no harm, no foul," with the strong implication that there can be no actual harm (all evidence being carefully ignored to maintain that belief).

4:38 PM, July 03, 2007  
Blogger Michael Maier said...

I came close to going to jail once.

No one in the room would have guessed it either. I watched a woman hit her significant other. I was stunned and came very close to laying her out. I knew he wouldn't and couldn't do it. It's just not in him. And his kids were in the room at the time.

I probably should have too.

I've never seen a guy hit his woman in full view of others. I don't believe I know any guy so oblivious as to think he could do so and walk away w/out consequence.

4:38 PM, July 03, 2007  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

micheal maier --

Agree. I saw my step-father twist my mom's arm as a kid and his brother, my Uncle Glenn laid him out with one punch.

I always admired Uncle Glenn.

5:04 PM, July 03, 2007  
Blogger BobH said...

Yes Cham, no matter what happens, it's always men's fault and always male behavior that needs fixing...right?

6:25 PM, July 03, 2007  
Blogger TMink said...

reality wrote: "Then you're not paying attention."

Slogans and personal experience are not persuasive. Neither are insults. Make a point, back it up, or why post. What evidence do you have that women initiate most of the domestic violence? Put it on the screen.

You wrote: "We all know that women taunt, threaten, make insane ultimatums, blacmail, backstab- the list goes on forever."

Maybe the women that you hang with do. Except for the backstabbing, none of that stuff has happened to me and I have been married twice. So we do not "all" know that and not "all" women do any of those things.

Stop with the blanket accusations and put downs, it just makes you look bitter and senseless.

Trey

1:09 AM, July 04, 2007  
Blogger jw said...

1Charlie2 said: " So maybe male victims of domestic could use some societal understanding at least. Which is why the publication of these sorts of stats is pretty darned important. "

YES! Yes, a million times yes. There needs to be understanding and sympathy. Our society as it is bases itself on denying that males deserve understanding and sympathy, that must change.


reality2007: I don't buy it for a second. Initiation of violence cannot be counted as "she did it" OR as "he did it." For female victims, of the more severe variety, it's usually entirely his fault. Of the minor variety (low level violence) it's usually dual initiation, both of them are responsible and both started it.


All: There's a lot of sexism dumped onto men, that is a core part of our culture. I think the biggest part of that is seen in the statement " Men are people, not demons : Women are people, not saints "

It's the second part that is the hardest to get one's mind around. The very idea that a woman is only a person, fully capable of behaving badly, is so very hard for most people to understand. Someone said that it seems like the women's advocates have never actually met a real human female. It does seem that way.

When the inability to see women as people is combined with the absolute refusal to allow sympathy to harmed-males, we see the society we have. The two things create us, as we are.

Both must be breached and destroyed so that we arrive at:

Men who are treated badly deserve sympathy.
Women are people, fully capable of behaving badly or nicely.

4:43 AM, July 04, 2007  
Blogger Mercurior said...

even if a man reports being attacked by his partner, there is a sense that men has to be the aggressors, because of their size, and the pervasive atmosphere that men who do report are wimps, or losers, as some people said, the man will be arrested if she attacks him.

they police dont beleive it happens, so try telling them that, the courts dont recognise that it happens, so try telling them that.

in the UK we have 3000 shelters for female domestic violence, and 3 male..

5:26 AM, July 04, 2007  
Blogger Mercurior said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

5:28 AM, July 04, 2007  
Blogger Mercurior said...

heres a site about battered men


http://www.batteredmen.com/

and here are personal stories of battered men

http://www.batteredmen.com/gjdvstor.htm some of the stories there are.. shocking

5:34 AM, July 04, 2007  
Blogger DAHMW Founder said...

Dear Helen,

Thanks for starting a dialogue about this topic. I started researching domestic violence back in 1996 after a male family member reached out to me and told me of his wife's verbal, emotional, physical and sexual abuse of him throughout their 13 year marriage. I found out that his options were severely limited by society's understanding of domestic violence. Male victims are rarely welcomed at the over 2000 battered women's programs throughout the US and most times they are treated as abusers when they call looking for assistance. In October of 2000 I started a non profit agency. We run the only nationally available toll free crisis line that specializes in offering support and services to male victims of female domestic violence. For the last six plus years over 16,000 people have called our toll free helpline seeking information, support, referrals, and services. Please let male victims know that we are here and we care.
Our toll free line is 888-7HELPLINE (888-743-5754) and our website is www.dahmw.org

PS We receive no federal or state funding, our contributions come from private donations so some of our services are limited, but we do what we can to assist all victims who call our crisis line.
Sincerely,
Jan Brown, Founder and Director
Domestic Abuse Helpline for Men and Women

10:45 AM, July 04, 2007  
Blogger br549 said...

tmink 1:09AM July 04, 2007

"Slogans and personal experience are not persuasive."

I imagine you were referring to one individual, on one particular post?

I agree with you on slogans, for the most part. But I must part ways with you on personal experience. I trust that more than anything.

So, as someone I respect highly, I must ask what you mean, or rather, what am I missing, from reading your statement?

3:00 PM, July 04, 2007  
Blogger TMink said...

Sorry br5, I was commenting about reality's post. Funny name for that kind of post!

I absolutely know and accept that men are abused. Same with women. Both are a crime and a shame.

But I do not accept that one gender is worse than the other. I usually respond to any woman bashing posts I read, and so called "reality" made some that I responded to. I think that violence perpetrated by women is under-reported and usually ignored. That is totally wrong, and I abhor it.

I do not have any trouble believing that some women abuse men, I have seen it, I was married to a woman with bipolar disorder for 15 years or so, so I saw a lot. She did not strike me, but I have worked with people and had friends who were attacked by their women partners.

I just will not buy into the "all women suck" thread.

And I was giving reality the benefit of the doubt (I often wonder if such blatantly misogynistic posts made here are really posted by women as bait) and asking him to post something other than vituperative blanket statements.

Sorry if I ofended you, I would never do so on purpose. Thanks for asking me to explain.

Trey

5:53 PM, July 04, 2007  
Blogger TMink said...

I was thinking about what I wrote earlier, and I was referring to reality's personal anecedotes. I have no idea who he is, he has not been posting here for long that I am aware, and he has no cred with me.

You, olig, pjohn, cham, and others, lots of others, have cred because they have published sensible posts for months. When people like you or them post something, I read it and consider it.

Someone who comes out of nowhere spewing hatred has no cred with me at all. That was what I meant to refer to, and I should have been specific to avoid giving offense to the people who are part of this community, like you, whose anecdotes I value.

Again, please accept my appology.

Trey

6:35 PM, July 04, 2007  
Blogger Graham said...

I have oodles of well-sourced (read: neutral source) stats on male/female violence...and some pretty persuasive stats which I must admit have enough holes in them to drain the spaghetti.

But just to chime in with my own experiences--the ones I feel safe discussing at this moment, anyway.

I've had two ex-girlfriends who hit me by way of ending an argument.

My high school sweetheart slapped me once. A woman I dated about two or three years ago kicked me in the head.

The slap was worse. There wasn't really anything I could do about it. It was insulting & demeaning & the sort of taunt which back in grade school would have been resolved, if not behind the woodshed, at least behind the swing set. And there wouldn't have been consequences beyond, perhaps, detention all-around. This doesn't work when you're 18.

Now, I'm not saying I like getting kicked in the head for arguing for the relatively humane treatment of POWs, but buffyized ex-gf WAS Israeli, ex-IDF--not to mention some other more arcane connections I chose not to investigate. And I could have done without the concussion.

But this was more or less a combat reflex from a woman who had, in fact, been in combat & there was never any question in this case as to whether or not I had the right to retaliate.

And since I have two inches & 50 pounds on my more recent ex-gf & a lot of wrestling experience, it wasn't all that hard to restrain her. She found the ease with which I wrapped her up rather galling.

Then I subjected her to bad Mel Brooks jokes & she bought me dinner.

We pretty much figured out that the relationship wasn't going to work but we're still friends and I honestly can say that Jess is one of the very few people I know who I'd trust with my life--at a distance, maybe, but the fact remains. There was never any question of anyone calling the cops or a lawyer. She paid her money and made her choice & that was that.

I think Jess would have been upset with me if I hadn't defended myself. This may sound like tortured logic, but not responding to Jess's level of aggression in kind would have been manipulative & taunting & cruel on my part.

Sort of like my high school girlfriend slapping me in the face & knowing I couldn't do anything about it.

Does this make sense to anyone but me?

9:59 PM, July 04, 2007  
Blogger jw said...

graham: Yes, it makes sense.

BTW: Those slaps are bad, you're hurting and at fault for hurting and there is nothing you can do about it. They are a form of emotional terrorism.

4:03 AM, July 05, 2007  
Blogger TMink said...

I admire the way you restrained her instead of following the natural impulse and decking her. It showed character and well, restraint!

Trey

9:05 AM, July 05, 2007  
Blogger br549 said...

tmink...

No apology necessary. I simply did not know what you meant, and knew if I asked, you would make things crystal clear, as you did.

Thanks!

I mentioned co-dependent on a thread somewhere on this blog (my head is spinning on here lately, trying to keep up). Cham answered one of my posts with a post of her own explaining some behavior she has witnessed herself. That behavior, I believe can be said to be co-dependent as well. Provided my understanding of it is correct.
Hell, I may be co-dependent for all I know. I'm a chocoholic, that's for sure!

I come here to understand. I was searching for an answer when I fell over this blog. If people knew that perhaps what they are experiencing, or how they are behaving is not right, how many would or could change? Or am I a dumb ass?

But this isn't a free therapy site, and perhaps that, too, is just now sinking in. The brain is small, but dense none the less.

12:23 PM, July 05, 2007  
Blogger reality2007 said...

***

12:49 PM, July 05, 2007  
Blogger reality2007 said...

"Slogans and personal experience are not persuasive. Neither are insults. Make a point, back it up, or why post. What evidence do you have that women initiate most of the domestic violence? Put it on the screen."

Of course there isn't going to be 'statistics' to 'back this up'- and that's another huge part of the problem. Our society is still stuck so far back in the stone ages (like yourself) that we as a society are only NOW beginning to even accept/talk about the fact that women are just as violent as men. Anything that is critical of women and exposes the truth is either buried by the press or ignored- this is because if facts like this are studied and released about women, female groups just simply attack the source, using sleazy tactics like defamation of character. Jeez, did you just move to the U.S.? Why do you have to have everything spelled out to you? If I were as ignorant as you, I wouldn't even survive one day.

"Maybe the women that you hang with do. Except for the backstabbing, none of that stuff has happened to me and I have been married twice. So we do not "all" know that and not "all" women do any of those things."

You are so clueless about everything else, I wouldn't be surprized if these women royally screwed you over and you still don't even realize it. You are living in a dream world.

1:16 PM, July 05, 2007  
Blogger MikeT said...

Cham,

I would have no problem with subjecting men to the same standard. In fact... they already are! If you come at a man like a violent loon, chances are he'll rip you up if you don't give him the chance to get away from you.

As to children... you would be better off avoiding such strawmen.

1:21 PM, July 05, 2007  
Blogger MikeT said...

I am the product of a family with a father who couldn't control his temper. I've seen firsthand how people like that can only be brought back under control when you threaten them with violence. Men, women, it's all the same mentality. They have a violent personality that thinks it's their God-given right to use violence to resolve any conflict that raises their blood pressure.

1:39 PM, July 05, 2007  
Blogger TMink said...

Reality wrote: "we as a society are only NOW beginning to even accept/talk about the fact that women are just as violent as men."

Dude, I said that a dozen posts ago. You said that women were more violent than men. Scroll back and read it. Or check out the other threads over the last 18 months where I have posted the same thing.

Then tell me who is living in the dream world.

I hope you can learn to spot violent or dangerous women. It is a really good skill to have. My first wife was not violent, just toxic. My current wife is a wonderful human being. I learned how to choose better. You can too.

But insults do not a coherent, thoughtful post make.

Trey

2:13 PM, July 05, 2007  
Blogger reality2007 said...

"You said that women were more violent than men."

Jeez, you are REALLY tediously slow- I DID say that women are more violent than men. SOCIETY is only beginning to accept than women are JUST as violent as men. For 95% of our society, they are only in the beginning stages of even accepting even that.

"I hope you can learn to spot violent or dangerous women. It is a really good skill to have. My first wife was not violent, just toxic."

HA! This is going to be GOOD! Tell us, oh wise one, how does one tell if a woman is dangerous, violent, psycho, etc... I'm REALLY intersted in this one!

5:04 PM, July 05, 2007  
Blogger br549 said...

Tweeeett! Whistle is blown, bell is rung. Round's over.

Tmink agreed with you, (even long before you ever showed up) that women, too, are violent - as violent as men. SOME women are as violent as SOME men, to be more exact. You missed that, twice.

Who are you mad at, anyway?

6:17 PM, July 05, 2007  
Blogger TMink said...

"Tell us, oh wise one, how does one tell if a woman is dangerous, violent, psycho, etc... I'm REALLY intersted in this one!"

Well, since you are interested, I will try to share some of the warning signs.

I look to see if she can share, if she can take turns, if she is flexible when things do not work out the way she planned. How she deals with frustration is very important. I am cautious around women whose face turns red when the get angry and their veins pop over the slightest set back. Can she laugh at herself? Does she have a healthy sense of humor? If she tends to belittle or look down on other people I am not interested.

Is she tolerant of other people but willing to disagree? That is good. Does she have a good job that she likes? Has she been there a while, or does she crash and burn her jobs? Is she kind to other people? Does she smile, do her eyes light up when she does? Is she steady in her beliefs? I do not date flakey women.

I look to see how she relates to her coworkers and friends. If she has children, I want to see them be bright eyed and happy. How does she discipline her children, can she listen to and empathize with them? Does she sacrifice for her kids? Does she have a best friend for a long period of time, or does she crash and burn one relationship after another? How does she get along with her parents? Her siblings? Does she have plenty of intact relationships that have lasted several years? What does she say about previous relationships? Were they ALL assholes, or is she able to realize that some relationships just do not work out between people and can she stay civil with folks she has dated? If she is addicted, she is certainly not my type.

If those things look good, then I would consider seriously dating her. Then I start looking in earnest at how she treats me. We have not slept together yet mind you!

I want her to care about my feelings and ask how I am doing. I want to have had a few disagreements with her and see how she dealt with that. Can she talk about her anger, or does she have to act it out? Will she say that something I did hurt her feelings, or will she just try to get me for it. When I tell her something she did bugs me, how does she react? Can she appologize and mean it? Or does she get flippant. If she is a drama queen, we never got this far, that is a deal breaker.

Does she appreciate it when I compromise for her? Can she reciprocate? Is she a Christian? If so, can I see that in her loving kindness toward others? Is she compassionate?

If most of these criteria are to the good, she is a trustworthy and outstanding human being. And she will be safe too.

Part of the key is watching and not getting involved sexually or emotionally too early. I am not gonna be naked with my business hanging out with someone I cannot trust deeply!

That will do it pal. You look for that sort of stuff, and take your time, and you can really lower your chances of being ambushed by some psycho. Even if she is psycho, if you go slowly enough, she will dump you and look for a sap.

Trey

6:48 PM, July 05, 2007  
Blogger TMink said...

Oops, I left an important one out.

How does she deal with difficult people? Does she go to pieces when some jerk calls her names and insults her, or does she calmly say what she needs to say? Is she difficult to provoke into an argument? Or does she lose it anytime someone disagrees with her and gets so angry that she cannot recognize when people agree with her.

Or something like that.

Trey

6:51 PM, July 05, 2007  
Blogger girl said...

I have hit men. When a guy holds me down to tickle me and continues to hold me down and tickle me--and enjoys my struggle to get free--even when I plead for him to stop, I belt him as soon as my hands are free. When a guy pins me against the wall so he can fondle me and doesn't stop even though it is abundantly clear that I want him to stop ("stop touching me" and "let me go"), I belt him as hard as I can when I am free.

So when you hear this, are you one of the guys who says, "Oh, she is probably really enjoying it" or "Can't you take a joke?" or "I was just teasing"? Are you one of the guys on this board who complains about violent women because of something like this?

I can't speak for all women, but I am not as strong as most men. Time and again, I have seen and experienced men who take advantage of women's relative weakness. Women should hit back more often.

10:17 PM, July 05, 2007  
Blogger TMink said...

"Women should hit back more often."
Hitting back is something different than most folks have been talking about here. I am all for hitting back, but not hitting first.

One of the themes I hear is that if men hit back, they go to jail. Sometimes, even if they do none of the hitting.

I agree, if men are assaulting women, they need to expect some kind of consequence. Can you agree that if women are assaulting men, they should receive some kind of consequence?

Trey

12:24 AM, July 06, 2007  
Blogger BobH said...

To girl

Your behavior is morally wrong. You should be escaping, not hitting the guy. The general rule currently used by women seems to be: when a man hits a woman, it's because the male's behavior is incorrect. When a woman hits a man, it's because the male's behavior is incorrect. (Notice a pattern here?) Unfortunately, this attitude has become embedded in American popular culture, with women hitting or otherwise damaging men (or their truck or house) for truly trivial reasons.

8:52 AM, July 06, 2007  
Blogger Graham said...

"Girl, you'll be a woman soon..."

Hopefully.

10:28 AM, July 06, 2007  
Blogger reality2007 said...

"If most of these criteria are to the good, she is a trustworthy and outstanding human being. And she will be safe too."

In understanding women, (and life in general) you have a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOG
way to go. But, that's typical- you're young, dumb & naive. I'd say from the sound of it, you're about 25, where your persception of the world hasn't progressed much beyond the 'Barney' show. "These things are BAD, and these are GOOD. You can see from the signs in front of them clearly stating that. I like you, you like me, we're all one oblivious family in our infinite stupidity."

In the meantime, I'll be kind enough to bless you with a little truth, and the truth is like pain, and pain is part of effort and self improvement- all alien to your soft, child-like Sesame Street world of effiminate political correctness and borderline illiteracy. Truth is hard.

A) Women are amoral. Study it.

B) Everything a woman does is always ultimately in her best interest, this is why women all women marry up (if they can) because they are all con artists and frauds. Period.

C) Women are genius actresses. You have been duped. Portraying and imitating virtuousity is the most integral part of a woman's little dog and pony act.

D) The woman you are with now seems like she's an angel, but that 'angel' will shock and surprize you. I have seen women who I would have never dreamed of doing the things they did in a million years do things too low for Hitler.

E) Part of the very problem most men have is the belief that because women are 'soft' or pretty that somehow this equates moral virtue- an extremely childish notion.

F) When young attractive women are practising chasity, this creates an illusion of moral superiority, when in fact the motives are quite the opposite- she's saving her vagina for the highest bidder.

G) The vast majority of American women suffer from a cocktail of mental maladies caused by our very culture.

You are welcome in advance.

11:45 AM, July 06, 2007  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

reality2007 -- You're a dick. Also, item D makes you a loser in the world of online debate. You were before, but that confirms it.

12:45 PM, July 06, 2007  
Blogger TMink said...

Reality, I am 47 and a seasoned psychotherapist. And I am a happy guy in a great marriage with wonderful kids. My wife is no angel, she is just a fine human being.

God bless you. I think I am done with the conversation. Thanks for your concern.

Trey

1:02 PM, July 06, 2007  
Blogger reality2007 said...

"You're a dick. Also, item D makes you a loser in the world of online debate. You were before, but that confirms it."

The subject doesn't have anything to do with me. When I need the opinion of someone who's only contribution to a serious discussion is the above quote, I'll let you know. (Make sure to hold your breath until that time comes).

"I am 47 and a seasoned psychotherapist."

That explains why you're so wimpy, ignorant and sheltered. I used to date a psychotherapist... she ended up being really mousey and worthless. That is why I broke up with her.

"I think I am done with the conversation."

I don't blame you. If I were you I wouldn't want to deal with someone from the real world either.

1:49 PM, July 06, 2007  
Blogger Peregrine John said...

Superlatives, blanket statements, generalizations... The conversational equivalent of zero tolerance rules. Generally as credible as sentences with all-caps all over and supportive mostly of hatred.

Thanks, no. Trolls with names are still trolls.

2:00 PM, July 06, 2007  
Blogger reality2007 said...

"Superlatives, blanket statements, generalizations... The conversational equivalent of zero tolerance rules. Generally as credible as sentences with all-caps all over and supportive mostly of hatred.

Thanks, no. Trolls with names are still trolls."


This really all nothing but another form of ad hominem, which is nothing than a stark indication that all your arguments are incredibly weak and a deck of cards. It is why you have to resort to personal attacks?

I figured that there would be college educated readers on a blog like Dr. Helen. Just another reminder of how spineless liberals are- and virtually illiterate.

It's funny how much liberals and feminists hate Bush- personally I despise Bush because he's exactly like you people & not at all a conservative- I think your type and Bush have everything in common.

3:30 PM, July 06, 2007  
Blogger Peregrine John said...

Good heavens, I do believe I've been called a Lib! This is a new one for me, and entirely entertaining. Mind if I quote you for when I plead centrality?

4:41 PM, July 06, 2007  
Blogger reality2007 said...

"Good heavens, I do believe I've been called a Lib! This is a new one for me, and entirely entertaining. Mind if I quote you for when I plead centrality?"

I take it back. This isn't just something a liberal PC freak would write, you're full blown gay. Violent women aren't really even any of your concern.. unless you're fighting over fabrics at the sewing store with them, so why you're even here is beyond me.

5:11 PM, July 06, 2007  
Blogger girl said...

bobh,

I think this is the wrong place to claim that I should be escaping, not attacking. This is the blog where self defense is revered, where girls with guns draw oohs and ahs from the macho crowd. If you want to say I shouldn't deliver sucker punches, then okay. But if you think I shouldn't punch someone taking delight in my powerlessness, you are wrong. It's wrong when women are cruel; it's wrong when men are cruel. I thought that was the whole point of this post.

And, Trey, you are correct to draw a distinction between hitting first and hitting back. The trouble comes when a woman hits back after cruel behavior from the guy, and the guy can't see that he did anything wrong. I was only kidding around! Can't you take a joke? I've seen that more than once. Specifically after being pinned against the wall: the bully couldn't believe I hit him "out of nowhere." But he didn't get his jollies against the wall anymore.

5:39 PM, July 06, 2007  
Blogger reality2007 said...

"But he didn't get his jollies against the wall anymore."

This is the very attitude that women have in the U.S. today that leads them to violence towards men. You have no respect for men or any comprehension of how a man thinks- the only thing a woman can deduce is that men are manipulated by sex- beyond that, when I'm talking to a woman, so much of the time it feels like I'm talking to a dog- she understands tone, but not the meaning of the concepts my words are are conveying.

This is because women think in two dimensions and men think in three dimensions.

Nonetheless, try to understand at least this- follow the same rules when it comes to making men angry as the DMV handbook regards pedestrians.. "as a pedestrian, you have the right-of-way, be we do strongly suggest you do not walk in front a speeding vehicle."

In the real world you get what you give, lady. It sounds like one day you'll be finding that out the hard way. Good luck to you, you're going to need it.

6:02 PM, July 06, 2007  
Blogger br549 said...

girl...

I do not believe in "kidding around" situations of which you wrote above. As a dad, were a man to do what you spoke of to one of my daughters, I'd be in prison.

You did make it sound (in your first post) as if it has happened more than once. I do need to ask you to reconsider who you hang around with, and where you go. It could keep your dad out of prison.

And I would always take escape as the first option. Ones responsibility to oneself would be survival first.

6:48 PM, July 06, 2007  
Blogger BobH said...

Girl

I guess that I misunderstood the situations. There's a big difference between hitting a guy in self-defense, to stop an action currently happening, and hitting him as punishment for something he's done in the past, even the immediate past. My personal experience is that women are more likely to do the latter than the former and it wasn't clear, at least to me, which situation you were in. Sorry.

8:28 PM, July 06, 2007  
Blogger TMink said...

"But he didn't get his jollies against the wall anymore."

It works for me! While it may have been the first hit, it was NOT the first contact, and pinning you against the wall deserves a good thump. If someone is so clueless that sexual assault seems OK, here is hoping that people like you give them a little one trial learning. If they were lying to excuse it, well, here is to one trial learning!

Too bad it was not a recent poster that pinned you and got thumped!

It is interesting, this has helped me recall getting groped at a party while in grad school. A young lady was wearing a skimpy little outfit and getting a lot of attention, but seemed a little histrionic for me, so I ignored her. A bunch of us were out on the deck, her and the hostess included.

As the woman walked past me, she pulled her hand across my crotch! I almost fell over! My eyes got big, and I saw the eyes of the hostess across the deck. They were bulging, her eyes that is(important to be specific there.)

We sat stunned for a moment, then began to laugh hysterically! I guess I had not paid enough attention to that little missy, and she certainly got my attention. My hostess thought about it and asked me if she needed to kick the girl out. I said no, but I thanked her profusely for even thinking of doing that.

In thinking why I was not upset, part of it is that I am over 6 feet tall and she was about 5'2", part of it was that it was such an aberation, and part of it was I was stunned.

Frankly it made a good story around the school for weeks. But I was in no danger, I think that is the key to why it was so different.

I wonder if it makes a difference that I cannot get pregnant, but I think I am reaching there. If a man had done that to a woman, I would expect him to get thumped. Weird huh?

Then there is the story of when one of my golf buddies got drunk and frisky and touched my butt, perhaps I will tell that one another time.

Trey

12:45 AM, July 07, 2007  
Blogger girl said...

Women also have funny stories about getting groped...at least, I do. If there is no threat, it can be uproariously funny or mildly annoying. This ties back to another of Helen's posts about the woman who punched a guy in a bar--can't remember the details, but the story drew quite a bit of outrage with the commenters here. Maybe the lesson is that you can't be sure where the boundaries are with others so courtesy is always correct.

10:16 AM, July 07, 2007  
Blogger TMink said...

I also think it has to do with frequency. I have had one guy touch me without provocation or invitation or interest on my part. It was easy for me to calmly discuss the matter with him. He was not the 4th that week. I am sure that I would lose my patience if it were a more regular occurance.

Then there is the whole upper body strength aspect. I am not worried about being raped or groped extensively against my will. It would turn into a fight after a moment or two, which is a different thing. If the assaulter were large and strong enough to pin me against a wall, I would get very angry and look to floor that person as soon as I got the chance.

But thanks for the discussion Girl, it is really interesting and helpful to consider. I apprecaite your patience and time.

Trey

11:27 AM, July 07, 2007  
Blogger geekWithA.45 said...

Hmmm...considering girl's stances, the actions would seem less self defense and more extrajudicial vigilantism.

Of interest to the scenario is whether she continued association with the brute in question. If so, it becomes more of a case of one adult corporally punishing another, (with submission to said corporal punishment being a condition of continued association) which is at the end of the day wildly innapropriate.

Does this excuse the brute's behavior? Not in any way.

4:01 PM, July 09, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

(This is belated, since Anonymous comments were turned off. But worth adding should folks run across this thread at a later date, imho.)

The important story, like Girl, is one I heard a girlfriend ask my boyfriend and his roomates. For br549 and the other Dad's who may read this and need to give advice to their daughters:

Bonnie experienced a similar situation to "Girl": getting groped against a wall at a frat party. Now, she was a Physical Therapy major, very fit, could crank out more push-ups than many guys, (later on, could bench-press her wiry-muscled boyfriend). I believe her 'being one of the guys' is partly why she experienced the poking/groping. I view it as part of the guys establishing their pecking order, like hens in a chicken coop. Since they saw here is a toughie and friend, rather than a lady, they did a physical playfulness move, not realizing how we girls/women can perceive this. No matter how emotionally tough we can be, we are aware that we are the physically weaker sex.

What should Bonnie do if the 'against the wall' ever happened again?
The boyfriends: 2 stiff fingers pressed strongly (or quick jabbed?) into the throat. I think just above the collarbone was the desired placement. It makes everybody step back. Then you can disengage. There was a bit of practicing demonstration; try it on yourself.
- Bonnie later reported that a similar incident had happened, and the 2-fingers technique worked great.

I have not used the two fingers. I can attest, from brothers, that pleading 'please stop' doesn't work; it just encourages them. I have used going passive, as Girl did, to get an aggressor away; but he stops because he feels like he won, and thinks less of you because you were so SO weak to not even play. So I'd add after either the 2-fingers or passive approach, that once away, shame the aggressor a bit, to assert your ladyness and his roguish behavior. That is necessary to prevent a stepped-up recurrence; a re-test of the pecking order.

Girl's belated slap is 'not playing fair'. Girl experienced, as I have, that weak pleading just eggs them on. Heh, you're one of us; show us what you got. Girl learned that going passive gets them to stop. But instead of a slap once you're away, draw yourself up with dignity and play a version of 'the genteel southern lady'. Have your college-bound daughter ready with a line or two appropriate to her personality and background:
- Southerner: "If I had a white glove, I slap you for not being a gentlemen. Thank you very much for keeping your hands to yourself in the future, kind sir."
- Farm kid: Were you born in a barn, treating a lady like that? I, that's right, you are from a farm. Do you feel up your pigs too?
- Generic: I see you've had your fun. Excuse me while I give my regrets to the host. I didn't know he'd invite such low characters to his parties. This lady prefers the company of gentlemen.

geek-in-heels

11:31 AM, July 12, 2007  
Blogger Major-General said...

I seem to remember about 7 years ago reading that rates of spousal abuse in lesbian relationships were about the same as in heterosexual ones, while they were lower for gay males.

I wish I had a source, but I don't. Anyone know anything about this?

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