Sunday, June 10, 2007

Boys are Smelly!

While looking for some interesting reading material, I came across this book, The Big Book of Girl Stuff, a kind of corollary to the The Big Book of Boy Stuff by the same author. Looking over the review from the Library Journal and the subsequent comments about the girl book, I couldn't help but note the upbeat and insouciant tone to this book versus the snippy and accusatory tone of the reviews and comments for the boy book.

For example, for the girl book, School Library Journal cheerfully states: "This funny follow-up to The Big Book of Boy Stuff (Gibbs Smith, 2004) is chock-full of hints and guidance. From the silly ("Why boys smell so bad") to the slightly serious ("Lies, Mean Girls, and Jerks"), it will have readers thumbing through the volume again and again....The volume has amusing illustrations and a reversible cover for sneaky in-school reading. While the information presented can be found in other books, the author's sense of humor and lighthearted approach make this one accessible to a wide range of readers."

Snappy captions and condecending comments (even from the men!) are found in the comments to the girl's book such as "No Boys Allowed!" or ... "the true literary measure of a fully realized man/child is this; can he write about, for, and with girls." Really? The only way for a man to prove his worth as a writer is to write for and about girls? Huh? What kind of a real man says stuff like this?

Compare this with the reluctant and downright annoyed reviews and comments to the boy books: one commenter states, "I flipped through it and figured out pretty quick it was sexist..." and from the School Library Journal on The Big Book of Boy Stuff:

This is a very uneven book, with some sections highly creative, informative, and fun and others almost insulting to youngsters (in one paragraph on how to make noises the author states, "being able to make a farting or bombing sound is very important to your career as a boy"). King begins by chastising those readers who might be looking for political correctness and warns that this title will be gross at times but suggests that he is offering what boys really want. The author points out that boys should really know how to use the kitchen and provides first-date advice. Unfortunately, his tone is so casual that the good suggestions he presents are likely to be lost in the silliness and the "boys will be boys" approach. The long list of reading recommendations gives no indication of age appropriateness.


So the "good advice" for boys has mainly to do with how to handle girls on dates and how to use a kitchen. Apparently, this reviewer's view of good advice for boys is how to turn them into girls!

The Dangerous Book for Boys even has a whole forum dedicated to why feminists need to bash the book just because it is written for boys. So as long as a book is for girls only that is fine but a book for boys is somehow sexist.

When women and girls (and "feminist" men) say "no boys allowed" and laugh that boys are smelly, it's all just a joke, but when the tables are turned, suddenly it's sexism. But maybe turnabout is the next best thing to fair play. I thought feminism was about fairness, but maybe turnabout's the best we can do.

Update: Stephen Gordon at the Speculist has more on The Dangerous Book for Boys.

101 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Helen says:
So the "good advice" for boys has mainly to do with how to handle girls on dates and how to use a kitchen. Apparently, this reviewer's view of good advice for boys is how to turn them into girls!

Oh dear sweet Helen... A man who cooks is not being turned in a female. Where did you get that one from? Perhaps some boys need advice on how to "handle girls on dates". That sounds perfectly worded to me from a boys' view -- it's not about how to be an uptight gentleman, it's about "how to handle the girls", a face-saving way of jumping in on those early interactions that might be worth reading about for the kids who are readers and don't get this stuff handed down actively from a brother or pal.

If you're arguing the book doesn't cover other more "dangerous" outside subjects, that's fine. But you're really showing your colors here to imply there's anything "girlish" about the kitchen. Is it all baking and sugar, or are there mean-and-vegetable meal making tips too?

Boys need more nutrition reading, so they can make things themselves and not be consumer slaves to pre-made food. Nothing feminine about it. Laundry tips are good for boys too -- for all the mocking of being girlish, it actually makes boys MORE independent not to be waiting on mom or the cleaning lady to do the laundry.

Independence is still good for kids, right?

6:55 PM, June 10, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

Anonymous 6:55:

Yes, I agree with you. Boys do need to learn to cook and get dating advice, of course. My concern was that the reviewer zeroes in on the advice on how boys relate to women--in dating and with helping in the kitchen. The added phrase about "boys being boys etc." gives away the sexist tone of the reviewer. But I could have worded it differently and should have.

7:05 PM, June 10, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thank you for acknowledging how it could be read wrong. If the boys are lucky to have men around them who make meals in the kitchen -- not just "help" -- then they have good role models already about being independent in feeding themselves.

I really think the key to a lot of healthiness is good eating, and the sooner we get rid of the idea that the kitchen is a women's place, or shopping for groceries is a woman's job, the better. Less with the packaging, more with the real worth of food!

7:58 PM, June 10, 2007  
Anonymous anony-mouse said...

You know what they call a single man who can't cook?

Either hungry or unhealthy.

Agreed, though, that it's rather odd for the reiviewers to reveal their biases so plainly.

8:15 PM, June 10, 2007  
Anonymous Ralph Gizzp said...

Not sure where I read it but it seems to be holding true, "It's getting so it's illegal to walk around with a penis."

8:27 PM, June 10, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm starting a campaign right now to stop using the word "feminist" for what Sommers calls "gender feminists". The term feminist is used most often to describe someone who is in favor of equality of opportunity for women. This encompasses virtually all women and the vast majority of men. Using "feminist" to catagorize the boy/men haters allows them to hide behind the term besides being wildly inapproprate. It's pass due that such folks are held accountable for their misandry. I suggest "malephobic" as a poor start, but suggest others might like to come up with better labels.

8:30 PM, June 10, 2007  
Blogger Jonathan said...

"Malephobic" is a bit awkward. I prefer to call them chick bigots.

8:43 PM, June 10, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Moms of boys. My boys are now grown up. They went to a boys only high school. But I know people my age who are moms of girls. They have different attitudes towards children (and towards boys) than moms of boys. (I absolutely do not mean to say that moms of girls "cannot understand boys" or anything like that. I only mean to say that people who more or less unconsciously go about their lives as moms of girls are different from people who more or less unconsciously go about their lives as moms of boys.)

8:44 PM, June 10, 2007  
Blogger JackRyan said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

8:47 PM, June 10, 2007  
Blogger betsybounds said...

It may be interesting to note that, while some people think that cooking and shopping for food are women's tasks, the greatest professional chefs are still men. True, women have found their way into the pro ranks, but if you can count you will note that men dominate. I'm not sure what this betokens, but I don't think it's a result of sexism. I've cooked in a pro kitchen or two, and never felt victimized by the guys at the top. It's also interesting that women tend to dominate the pastry sides of the kitchens. Again, I'm not sure what it betokens, but I don't think it's sexism. Don't we all tire of that default position of leftist/feminist wannabe social engineers? I know I do. Sometimes it may just be as simple as people tending towards doing what they prefer!

Re: The question of what a single man who can't cook is called--I'm reminded of an old joke my husband (who, btw, is a musician)says is standard in his field. Q.: What do you call a musician without a girlfriend? A.: Homeless.

I don't agree that it's at all odd for the reviewers to reveal their biases so plainly. They believe it's truth, not bias--in their worlds, everyone thinks that. Ask a fish how he likes living in all that water, and he will be puzzled, answering, "Water? What water?"

8:48 PM, June 10, 2007  
Blogger JackRyan said...

I cooked a nuke meal in a microwave once...but it didn't have the effect I was hoping for....

8:49 PM, June 10, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

8:44:
It was easier when people had 3 kids on average or more. More likely to get a son, or daughter, in the mix. Growing up with sibling of the opposite gender surely teaches you a bit about living the opposite sex, similarities and difference, and get along (or not) at different times.

I like it when the kids "date" in groups early on too, for this reason. Parents get to play host/chauffer the groups and see how the immature genders interact with each other, even if they only have the same sex at home.

Getting together with cousins -- opposite sex but "safe" since you're related, and see each other over periods of time in growing and developing interests -- is good too.

It helps stereotypes die in favor of seeing individual traits -- but it also gives you a sense of maybe where some "stereotypes" come from, the half truths that if you can acknowledge in reality you can use to your benefit.

I think that even though the adults these days have their "mitts" way too much into the kids today growing up compared to years/generations past, influencing perhaps in a disadvantageous way that they'd be better if we butted out and paid them less attention to fix their problems ... the kids today are working out things pretty good amongst themselves. Girls don't like to see their brothers treated poorly, and everybody knows fake advice from the real stuff, it's instinctual I think. Bet they'll turn out ok for the most part, despite the adult intervention!

8:54 PM, June 10, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's also interesting that women tend to dominate the pastry sides of the kitchens. Again, I'm not sure what it betokens, but I don't think it's sexism.

Women like sugar more, in general?

8:55 PM, June 10, 2007  
Anonymous Chuck Pelto said...

TO: Dr. Helen
RE: Indeed

"When women and girls (and "feminist" men) say "no boys allowed" and laugh that boys are smelly, it's all just a joke, but when the tables are turned, suddenly it's sexism." -- Dr. Helen

Obviously, some people have serious issues with regards to self-esteem.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[If you can't laugh at yourself, you don't have much justification to laugh at anyone else.]

9:09 PM, June 10, 2007  
Blogger GM Roper said...

When I was between 12 and 16 or so, mom insisted that I learn to iron, sew on a button, darn socks (damn, did I just age myself?), cook, bake, wash dishes, do laundry and repair clothing. She said that someday I would need those skills and she was absolutely correct, not only when I was in college, but years and years later in the 18 months I was a widower. I'm married again, but still use those skills. Thanks Mom!

9:26 PM, June 10, 2007  
Anonymous Nobody said...

It's way late to save the word "feminist." Follow the link to a report on a 2004 National Organization for Women rally:

Feminists Compare Bush's 2000 Election Victory to 'Savage Rape'

9:32 PM, June 10, 2007  
Anonymous memomachine said...

Hmmmm.

@ anony-mouse

"You know what they call a single man who can't cook?"

A restaurant customer.

Which is actually rather amusing since I've only met a handful of women under the age of 30 who can cook reasonably well. Women under the age of 20? Don't even bother asking the question.

Seriously. What is this fetish that some people have that men must learn how to cook? Yet if I were to offer the opinion that *women* must learn how to cook, I'm often viewed as a sexist looking to shackle women once more in the kitchen as a Slave of the Stove.

And yes. I have been taken to task, by women, for opining that women do need to know how to cook with the response offered to me that "there are plenty of restaurants out there!".

And yes. I know how to cook. But then again I'm not under 30 either. :)

9:32 PM, June 10, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I guess making fart noises turned out to be an underrated skill, eh gm roper?

Either that, or it's like buying the "boys" their condoms or porn -- trust them to instinctually learn some things in male circles. :)

9:33 PM, June 10, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Which is actually rather amusing since I've only met a handful of women under the age of 30 who can cook reasonably well. Women under the age of 20? Don't even bother asking the question.

Seriously. What is this fetish that some people have that men must learn how to cook?


As the first anonymous posting, let me reassure you that EVERYONE should learn the kitchen basics. That is why I objected to Helen calling it a girls' or women's place.

Even if you're going to eat out a lot, knowing how things are made only helps in food selections. Food quality = quality of life. And you can't always buy it. You are dead on that the younger people have no idea how to make meals using real, not prepackaged, food.

To me this is the number one skill we've lost along the way in downplaying the importance of the kitchen at home, that has contributed to misery in society. If you're not getting the minerals from your meals, you're going to be grumpy, no matter how much you're eating.

9:38 PM, June 10, 2007  
Anonymous Nobody said...

"In a kindergarten in Stockholm, the parents were encouraged by the preschool teachers - apparently ideological pioneers - to equip their sons with dresses and female first names. There are now weeks in some places when boys HAVE TO wear a dress."

Follow the link for more.

9:41 PM, June 10, 2007  
Anonymous memomachine said...

Hmmm.

@ betsybounds

"It's also interesting that women tend to dominate the pastry sides of the kitchens. Again, I'm not sure what it betokens, but I don't think it's sexism."

Frankly I have to agree. I'm a man and I've never had good results with pastries. Adequate, but not great. My pie crusts tend to be overly heavy and my biscuits have rarely achieved the necessary lightness. As for breads the best I can say is that they're "solid". One slice and that's a meal. :)

On the other hand generally everything else comes out well. I wonder if it's a left-side/right-side brain issue? Or is it really something associated with gender?

Curious.

9:43 PM, June 10, 2007  
Blogger Dave said...

Boys also now how to spit properly and girls don't. My wife is still unhappy because she can hardly spit at all, let alone with any accuracy.

9:44 PM, June 10, 2007  
Anonymous memomachine said...

Hmmmm.

@ Nobody

"Follow the link for more."

IMHO I think that's an excellent method for creating serial killers in large quantities.

Just what the world needs. Entire generations of "Buffalo Bills".

(Silence of the Lambs)

9:48 PM, June 10, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Am I seriously the only one that perfectly understood what Dr. Helen meant when she referred to the cooking and date advice part of the review of the boys book? Even before she clarified?

It's pretty obvious she was dissing the reviewer for thinking those were the only things worthwhile about the book, which was what she found feminizing. Jeez.

And yes, I am the mother of a 14 year old boy, who happens to make a kick butt turkey chili, and who has owned two of his very own cookbooks since he was around 10.

But I also think it's okay for boys to have more traditional boy interests, and doing so does not in anyway make me a sexist or any other stupid "ist" term.

10:12 PM, June 10, 2007  
Anonymous happy troll said...

In this story, Roller coaster scare leaves riders hanging, you can see how women just aren't very good at riding roller coasters.

One X-Coaster passenger, Jay Plummer, 37, was taken to St. Joseph Mercy Medical Center in Hot Springs after complaining of neck pain and a headache.

"It was very scary," said his girlfriend, Connie McBride. "I love the amusement park, but I will never get on the X-Coaster again."


If that guy hadn't been riding the coaster with his GIRLfriend--probably a feminist liberal Democrat, for certain--he probably wouldn't have taken himself to the hospital. Any real man would have just shaken it off. Crazy how those feminists have affected every aspect of men's lives. First the kitchen and now the roller coasters!

I can't believe I saw this story and its dire implications for men before Helen did. (Labels: mens' rights)

10:16 PM, June 10, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have only one recipe: I slice up the spam, put it in the frying pan until the smoke detector goes off.

Eat it all with a fork straight from the pan. Yum!

Fortunately for both me and my landlord, I have a gentleman to do my cooking for me.

10:36 PM, June 10, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My husband is a better cook than I am. Why -- his mom is "the best cook -- goumet kind" so he knows what things are supposed to taste like. But he still makes a big mess in the kitchen. Still I tell my nephew that he should learn to cook and do his laundry and tried to show him how -- my sister thanked me for showing him where the washing machine was and told me I should have shown him the dryer too. Ended up with a lot of really smelly clothes in the washing machine the next day.

10:59 PM, June 10, 2007  
Anonymous Chuck Pelto said...

TO: Nobody
RE: Feminists Think....What!!?!?!?

"Feminists Compare Bush's 2000 Election Victory to 'Savage Rape'" -- Nobody

I guess it's all a matter of herstrionics.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Don't panic....yet.]

11:15 PM, June 10, 2007  
Anonymous Chuck Pelto said...

TO: Memomachine
RE: Breads & Pastries

"As for breads the best I can say is that they're "solid". One slice and that's a meal. :)" -- Memomachine

The same is true in this household.

I do most of the cooking. But when it comes to things involving flour and the oven, I've got SERIOUS problems.

My french bread baguettes are better suited for battering burglars than anything else.

She is the mistress of that venue. Quiche crusts to kill for. State Fair prize-winning loaves of sour-dough. You name it, she's 'hot' on it.

As for the business that many women today abstain from doing anything in the kitchen because of some 'stigma'....what fools!

The kitchen is the powerplant of any household.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[There is no love sincerer than the love of food. -- George Bernard Shaw]

11:25 PM, June 10, 2007  
Blogger Margaret said...

Anonymous 8:54:

Another good reason to homeschool. Kids in all-boy or all-girl families get together with kids of mixed families in an atmosphere clear of the "girls rule boys drool" crap that goes on in school. At our park days, sometimes the girls do girly things and the boys have mock battles. But most of the time the group - about 15 kids from ages 2 to 10 - negotiates something they can all enjoy together. In my experience, this really freaks out girls coming out of public school, but after a while they lose their attitude and join the fun. The boys coming out of school have no attitude problems to begin with - they're happy to be allowed to be boys.

11:28 PM, June 10, 2007  
Blogger jw said...

Dr. Helen: I understand.

I'm not sure why the demand to diss all male activity and thought exists, I just know that it does. Worse, any attempt to point out the problem is mocked and thought of as sexism. It is now sexist to point out misandry.

Sad. Really sad.

3:32 AM, June 11, 2007  
Blogger Irwin Chusid said...

This is why the old joke, "Q. How many feminists does it take to change a lightbulb? A. That's not funny!" is still funny.

7:40 AM, June 11, 2007  
Blogger Eric Blair said...

All the great chefs are men.

8:03 AM, June 11, 2007  
Anonymous RGT said...

Re; Boys in the kitchen...

http://www.elise.com/quotes/a/heinlein_specialization_is_for_insects.php

8:30 AM, June 11, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

RGT,

I agree with all of Heinlein's guidelines for what a human being should be able to do but design a building? That one, I think, is beyond my reach due to the directional sense of a gnat.

8:43 AM, June 11, 2007  
Anonymous S. Weasel said...

Girls have cooties.

8:58 AM, June 11, 2007  
Anonymous Bugs said...

Well said.

11:00 AM, June 11, 2007  
Blogger Fen said...

Is this another set of books that encourages the girls to be Amelia Earhart & the boys to be Homer Simpson?

11:37 AM, June 11, 2007  
Anonymous Jim said...

"I suggest "malephobic" as a poor start, but suggest others might like to come up with better labels."

I suggest "phallophobic" since these same people generally have lots of issues around sex. It seems to be the same peoplle who tend to be the pornography crusaders and rape panic activists.

"the greatest professional chefs are still men....... It's also interesting that women tend to dominate the pastry sides of the kitchens.

I don't know if this is true fro Western-style restaurany=st also, but for Chinese restaurants the conventioanl wisdom is that women cook like housewives, frugally and for comfort, but when people go to a restaurant, they want drama and excess. With pastries, it may have to do with the connection to comfort food, but it may also have to do with different palates. Women often don't have the same appetite for meat that a lot of men do, and often go through an almost vegetarian phase in their late teens, at least here on the West Coast. On the other side, you don't hear men jonesing for chocolate goodies.

Cooking and baking are opposites; you can do one or the other well. "Cooking is an art and baking is a science."

GM Roper's mom and mine had the same idea. Mine taught all of to cook and all that to make us independent of women, starting with her. She saw no reason to be doing laundry for teenagers who were bigger and stronger than her. My ex-wife really appreciated it, because she found cooking a chore (eating too, but that's a different story.) But bless her, for some reason she didn't mind the clean-up, and I was a pretty careful not to make a mess.

11:42 AM, June 11, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

Jim,

I think you are right that women have a taste for sugar and less of one for meat and with men, it is often just the opposite. Just check out any ice cream store in your area (full of women) vs. the local barbeque joint (full of men).

11:56 AM, June 11, 2007  
Anonymous Cousin Dave said...

fen: I haven't read the book yet, but from what I've seen of the reviews, I don't think so. My observation is that the process of maturation is different. The boys, by and large, will succeed if they have good role models and if they are allowed to develop the skills of manhood, and not have it beaten out of them. Whereas girls need to be pushed more towards success, boys will go by themselves; the trick is to keep them going in a good direction.

So to answer your question, the boys won't turn out to be Homer Simpson if they aren't forced to be. And I'm pretty sure the book doesn't do that. In fact, one of the very purposes of the book is to steer the boys away from that kind of path.

12:10 PM, June 11, 2007  
Blogger Peregrine John said...

What's up with the pastry preference nonsense? I make dang fine pie crust, biscuits, zucchini bread, waffles, cookies, pizza or any other flour-based thing I take a mind to - though traditional breads sometimes come out a little oddly as they tend to do for any non-professional. I learned from Mom who learned from Grandma, and I know any number of other guys who can do the same. It's personal preference, that's all. My delightful lady prefers to make soups, pasta, and an unearthly good guacamole. I love working with chocolate and meats (though outside of mole, not at the same time). It's just what we enjoy making, an individual preference. Don't lets be silly, here.

But to be proud of one's complete inadequacy in a traditional ability? Faugh! Is there a man who claims inability with, say, basic auto maintenance with the same pride so many women show with culinary cluelessness?

What do you call a single woman who can't cook?

12:41 PM, June 11, 2007  
Blogger Cham said...

A man who doesn't know how to cook and who is also looking for a woman who has some earning power may have some difficulty finding love. The last thing any woman wants is to come home after a day in the office to a man waiting for her to produce a meal. Since 50-60% of marriages end in divorce and people are waiting longer to marry, I would suggest everyone learn how to handle food preparation. Fortunately, I have dated many wonderful men, including the one I am seeing now, who insist on doing most of the cooking. This is one of the few things I can say that is great about American culture, men don't mind the kitchen. I haven't seen this book of which Helen speaks, but am not sure encouraging boys to stay out of the kitchen is a good thing.

If I would be able to tweak our current cultural climate just a bit, I think it would be great if boys/men could be slightly more cognizant of nutrition, as the meals they like to cook tend to be high in protein, starches and saturated fat, and light on the veggies.

12:48 PM, June 11, 2007  
Anonymous Dude Who Cooks Stuff said...

I'm male. I'm single right now. I've been cooking for myself -- and my various mates -- for eons.

I don't get why any man would be "unable to cook." Good grief. Isn't eating (and eating WELL) a big part of every man's life? I can't imagine being clueless in the kitchen -- satisfying my palate is far too important to me.

12:58 PM, June 11, 2007  
Blogger Peregrine John said...

Sorry - who is it that is encouraging boys to stay out of the kitchen?

"The author points out that boys should really know how to use the kitchen..."

"A man who cooks is not being turned into a female."

LI am the mother of a 14 year old boy, who happens to make a kick butt turkey chili, and who has owned two of his very own cookbooks since he was around 10."

"My husband is a better cook than I am."

So, few to none, apparently. To the contrary, as memomachine says, "Seriously. What is this fetish that some people have that men must learn how to cook? Yet if I were to offer the opinion that *women* must learn how to cook, I'm often viewed as a sexist looking to shackle women once more in the kitchen as a Slave of the Stove."

1:02 PM, June 11, 2007  
Anonymous Kent said...

I guess I'll join the "me-too" chorus. I didn't marry until I was almost thirty, and not knowing how to cook was just not an option. But I had discovered long before that it is kind of fun, actually.

I'm still the gourmet chef in the house. I make a mean paella (though not authentically mean, as I hate scraping burned rice off my pans.) I'm pretty good at casseroles; though, being an authentic male, I would prefer more barbequed red meat than my wife wants.

I also clean up all the dishes -- mine and hers. I figure it's payback for all those nights when she was suckling infants and I wasn't equipped to help. (As the saying goes, mine are purely decorative.)

Recently I helped a group of Webelos Scouts learn to build a fire and assemble and cook foil dinners. I'm pretty sure there was not a woman within ten miles.

1:14 PM, June 11, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

boys have interests, and girls have interests... should I be shocked? What I find with my own children is that if yo quantify things in a neutral way, they each figure out what it is they like. Sewing is the attachment of two materials held together by a third. In that way, building a wall is no different than sewing, just heavier materials. It works both ways.

Why certain elements feel that sexism is a male issue? This is just payback for when women had nothing at all, even though that was many years ago. For people with an issue like that, instantaneous change is the only acceptable one, ongoing change isn't. There is also the punishment factor. You run in to people who always want to punish retroactively... for what my grandfather did and his generation.

The most alarming piece of the puzzle is where I run in to people that demand that equal under the law, should be equal in every way. In this estimation, diversity is a lovely shade of beige, where everyone is the same. Even gender is meaningless.

1:15 PM, June 11, 2007  
Anonymous John Clarke said...

Of course men should learn to feed themselves. I cannot see anything remotely manly in sitting around hungry while waiting for food that you expect a woman to prepare and serve to you.

My mother taught me how to cook when I was a boy, and from that time to this I prepare all my own food (except when I occasionally eat out). That includes buying the ingredients. I would not dream of expecting somebody else to do it for me, any more than I would expect somebody else to wipe my backside for me.

I am the only one who really knows exactly what food I want, when and how I want it, so why nag my wife to do it when she will probably get it wrong and has better things to do, and I can fix it perfectly well myself?

So sure boys should be taught self-sufficiency in the food department. It's a vital step on the road to independence, and will make them healthier.

1:15 PM, June 11, 2007  
Anonymous deoxy said...

"I thought feminism was about fairness"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!!!!

It hasn't been about "fairness" in my LIFETIME. It's been about "Men are bad, women are good" since AT LEAST when I was in high school (and that was some double-digit number of years ago, now).

1:37 PM, June 11, 2007  
Anonymous Momzilla said...

I don't think that many schools offer home economics any longer, do they? I can remember when they changed the name of the class at my high school (early 70s) to "bachelor arts" because of declining enrollments in home ec.

After the name change, we'd see a lot of the football players sign up for the class. Easy A to keep your gpa in playing range, virtually no homework, and you got to eat in class.

And the girls signed up because the football players were all in the class.

1:44 PM, June 11, 2007  
Anonymous Elliot said...

I'm amazed at the notion that women can cook worth a damn. Most of them have become slaves to whatever prepackaged, bagged, and canned slop comes out of the middle aisles of the supermarket. Is boiling water, heating a pizza, and microwaving cooking?

1:56 PM, June 11, 2007  
Blogger Cham said...

All these presumptions about what feminists are. Feminists are this, feminists are that. Exactly who holds the rule book on what all feminists believe?

2:10 PM, June 11, 2007  
Anonymous Cousin Dave said...

cham: It's the people calling themselves feminists, who by and large hold to the have-it-both-ways philosophy. The "old school" original feminists are mostly silent or gone now, and their daughters reject the "feminist" label because they are so embarassed at what feminism has degenerated into.

2:41 PM, June 11, 2007  
Blogger Cham said...

I'm a feminist.

2:52 PM, June 11, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Who cares about cooking. I love any woman who appreciates Heinlein! :)

3:10 PM, June 11, 2007  
Anonymous armchair activist said...

there is a pervasive attitude by certain sections of the feminist groups, who like dworkin, think that all men are rapists, that all men are scum.

and ANYTHING that turns boys into faux women, whether its education or the continual denigrating of men in general, they support.

the idea that women are angels and men are devils is so entrenched in this world, that just to get equality men have to run much harder, and frequently men give up.

has any feminist ever done any reading about the vote, it was only 1 generation before women got the vote, than ALL MEN got the vote, before it was landed men, men who owned land.

have you never thought that women had the power, the man worked however long, and the woman looked after the household and children and everything there, the man was only there to earn money.

so who had the real power, the man who earned or the many women (some who as they were in charge of food, could poison them).

look at the industrial revolution, men and women and children all worked, at least in the mills, it was only after several years that womens rights appeared and stopped women and children from working.

but MEN always had to work, and die, to provide, so who had the real power.

its not longer about equality, thats what the original people wanted, now its become how can i make sure that i am better than anyone else.

3:47 PM, June 11, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

'Feminist' is just a convenient label for women who, for one reason or another, deem themsleves better than men in some fashion. There are many women who reject the label and yet still cling to that mentality of feminine entitlement, either by virtue of biology or by claiming victim status.

The only thing I can suggest, Cham, is to for you reject the substance of the label. Using an over-subscribed term and attaching your own definition to it simply doesn't work.

Rusty

3:58 PM, June 11, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Betsy,

As I understand it, the answer to your question of 'why are the best chefs men?' is that the very best of any profession are almost always men.

Why?

Men are much more variable on the bell curve distribution of talent. You have some guys with no talent whatsoever, and some geniuses (with of course, the vast middle still being there) whereas with women, you have less no-talents and less geniuses, and a bigger vast middle of the bell curve. (I'm sure there's a joke there, but I won't hunt for it.)

So when you get to the world class level in any profession, its probably nine of ten are men, if not more.

My cooking? I do almost all the cookery. My approach is Mad Scientist, and my food is good, if not great. The Shrimp Alfredo I made at lunch today was nice. And yes, I like to cook. Its creative in a different way than writing, and far easier than writing.

Tennwriter

4:02 PM, June 11, 2007  
Blogger submandave said...

"I'm starting a campaign right now to stop using the word "feminist" for what Sommers calls "gender feminists". The term feminist is used most often to describe someone who is in favor of equality of opportunity for women."

I disagree. The "gender feminists" have so coopted the word "feminist" that they own it. It's not unlike how the "gay" today could hardly be used to mean happy or joyful without snickers. As such, I propose that an entirely new word that really means equality and parity be coined. Maybe "egalitarian" isn't that far from the true intent.

4:53 PM, June 11, 2007  
Anonymous Cousin Dave said...

cham: What kind of feminist?

5:11 PM, June 11, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"the true literary measure of a fully realized man/child is this; can he write about, for, and with girls."

Really? The only way for a man to prove his worth as a writer is to write for and about girls?

Huh?

What kind of a real man says stuff like this?

********

perhaps one who recognizes that the possession of a literary ability, sine qua non of those who are a "fully realized man/child", does not imply its use.


amused
a199901@mail.com

5:20 PM, June 11, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I'm starting a campaign right now to stop using the word "feminist" for what Sommers calls "gender feminists". The term feminist is used most often to describe someone who is in favor of equality of opportunity for women."

People who believe in egalitarianism would appear to believe in equality above all else.

People who believe in libertarianism would appear to believe in liberty above all else.

Nationalists put their nation above all others.

So what would you expect a “feminist” to favour?

It seems to me that you are trying to save a word from its own natural meaning.

You do not expect the NAACP to care about people who are not black eg Asians.

You do not expect the League of United Latin American Citizens to care about people who are not Latino, eg blacks.

So why would you expect feminists to care about people who are not women?

People who seek freedom or equality for group X care about group X, not freedom or equality in the abstract.

As long as group X is free and not discriminated against, they must logically be happy.

6:51 PM, June 11, 2007  
Anonymous TMink said...

OK, mostly off topic, but here goes.

Last topic like this I was inspired to start a Flickr group with pictures of boys. Some teens, a couple of men, but mostly boys. It has grown nicely, and now most of the photos are not mine! So I can refer you to it with a clean heart! Check it out, people from all over have posted some really great images of boys.

http://flickr.com/groups/lads/

Trey

9:31 PM, June 11, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm sure you're going to find a lot of interesting people who share your interest in boy pictures Trey.

11:29 PM, June 11, 2007  
Anonymous TMink said...

Sigh. Not THOSE kind of pictures mind in the gutter!

Check them out. Unless YOU are one of those kind of people.

Trey

12:28 AM, June 12, 2007  
Blogger Laika's Last Woof said...

Real men don't cook. We barbeque.

3:01 AM, June 12, 2007  
Blogger jw said...

I've never understood this thing about men and cooking. We live in a culture which abhors a man who cannot cook and sees a woman who cannot cook as free or liberated.

If you can't cook, you got a problem. What's between your legs has nothing to do with that problem.

I saw an article from the supermarket trade group saying they must add more prepared food to thier markets so they can get the male crowd. Yet, I bet the people actually buying the prepared food are female. Just shows the size of our sexism problem.

3:58 AM, June 12, 2007  
Blogger Mercurior said...

the true ideal of the first feminists was equality, i have no problem with that.

but feminism as an organisation has become anti male, what can we as women get out of it.

i prefer to call for women like dr helen, and other women equalists, they want everyone to be treated the same. the word feminist in todays world has a very negative conotation, which does a disservice to the people really working towards a harmonious way of life.

4:51 AM, June 12, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Not THOSE kind of pictures mind in the gutter!

Don't be in denial about what/who you're going to attract with everyday pictures celebrating the joys of boyhood. Yeah, I like looking at my kids having fun. No, I wouldn't waste time looking, and definitely not posting, somebody else's little boys playing innocently. They don't have to be "those kind of pictures" to excite a stranger's interest, you know, and setting up such a site to share your joy of boys with others, well it does make a person wonder what exactly you're doing that for.

7:59 AM, June 12, 2007  
Anonymous TMink said...

Right, has your NAMBLA membership expired? The only person it makes wonder is you so far. That makes ME wonder!

Trey

8:49 AM, June 12, 2007  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

Anonymous Coward 7:59 -- Project all you want. Everyone here will see that you are either NAMBLA oriented and covering or stupidly fearful of 'strangers'.

Trey. How does one post a pic without making a Flickr account?

9:36 AM, June 12, 2007  
Anonymous TMink said...

Olig, sorry for forgetting that photo that you wanted to add. And thanks! I think I remember a place where I can find your email, so I will contact you that way if I can. Don't post it here, too many trolls about!

Trey

9:49 AM, June 12, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Men that cook are HOT, and I'm not talking about the temperature in the kitchen.

TiggerG

11:44 AM, June 12, 2007  
Anonymous graham strouse said...

Cham,

Being able to cook a bit does seem to make female hearts grow fonder. ;)

As for your recipe suggestions, a lot of it has to do with metabolism, at least as far as protein goes. When you're carry an extra 30-50 pounds of muscle mass: perhaps less of a difference here in your case...I've seen your profile pic & 2-4 times the muscle density...again, results may vary, you need a lot of protein just to repair the day's labor. Starch...well, I'd say it's about even. Fats, can't argue with you there. You're generally right about vegetables, too.

Single men DO tend to learn to cook, though. Less well or better, depending. It's a lot harder to get women to buy us dinner. ;)

Thanks for the reminder, though. Seriously. Culinary skills are a formidable weapon in the arsenals of the sexes.

Just ask Hannibal Lecter.

Yrs. W/ Fava Beans & a nice Amaronte,

-G

1:16 PM, June 12, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Project all you want. Everyone here will see that you are either NAMBLA oriented and covering or stupidly fearful of 'strangers'.

Sure, sure. Be in denial. Start your own public viewing website of the joys of boys, and then be surprised at what you attract. No thanks. We prefer sharing photos privately and not exploiting kids like that. Boys too.

2:11 PM, June 12, 2007  
Anonymous TMink said...

Anon wrote: " We prefer sharing photos privately and not exploiting kids like that."

That preference I can accept. But where is the exploitation in a flickr group? There are about 4000 of them! The photos were all posted in the group by the people who made them. No currency, favors, or influence changed hands. Exploitation? That is just silly.

You really should check them out. There are some wonderful photos shared by men and women who were proud of the photos, and rightly so! Looking at them will make you smile! Here is the link again, you can be the exploitation police!

http://flickr.com/groups/lads/pool/

There are perverts in the world, but isn't it odd that you thought of them instead of the beautiful photos of happy children? I mean there are fleas at a dog show too, but most of us come to see the dogs. Most of us.

Trey

2:50 PM, June 12, 2007  
Anonymous Bugs said...

There are definitely safer ways to share photos of your kids - boys and girls - than just posting them on a public website. Maybe not as convenient, though. Depends on how technical savvy you are.

I think if I were going to post pics of the critters (I don't have any, btw), I would password-protect the site and only give user accounts to people I trusted - friends, relatives, certain co-workers. It's not like the entire world needs (or wants) to see little Joshua or Brittany opening their birthday presents.

The Internet is like the world represented as computer data. If you wouldn't let your kids run around unsupervised in the real world, you shouldn't let their images run around unsupervised on the Net.

3:20 PM, June 12, 2007  
Anonymous TMink said...

Nice points bugs, what would you worry about in terms of posting photos of your (hypothetical) children on the web?

Trey

4:30 PM, June 12, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

what would you worry about in terms of posting photos of your (hypothetical) children on the web?

Well, once you are safely out of denial land, you should worry that anyone can access those photos. Not everyone wants to view the joys of boys they don't know. We prefer to exhange/share pictures of children we do know growing up. Why would you get such a kick out of 4000 pictures of little boys, if you are active with youngsters in your own life and you don't know those others from Adam?

You first reaction was telling: you accused the person who pointed out that such a public website can be exploited, by accusing the warner of being involved in NAMBLA. Wake up and smell the denial? And here I thought you worked with exploited children yourself-- either you don't get how open the Web is, or you don't care who's looking at the boy pix you post and why.

5:22 PM, June 12, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There are perverts in the world, but isn't it odd that you thought of them instead of the beautiful photos of happy children? I mean there are fleas at a dog show too, but most of us come to see the dogs. Most of us.

Not odd. Realistic. I am a "protector" like that. You probably live in a safety world, so you don't see it yet. Trust me, the joys of boys picture collection will raise some eyebrows. And what's it for, who's benefitting btw? And did the minors give permission to have their likenesses/images used in this way? Better to wait until they are grown and can make a decision to consent, or not, to such file sharing ?

5:26 PM, June 12, 2007  
Anonymous TMink said...

OK, first, check out the photos, then you can speak in an informed fashion. Then YOU can benefit, if your heart is open to beauty. Then you have an opportunity to understand. Flickr.com, not really a new invention.

Second, denial land? I work with people who have been abused, that is my specialty. 6 days a week for the last 17 years. I know you want to think of yourself as special and a crusader for children's safety, but unless you have my job, you have no cred in this conversation!

Not active with kids in my own life? Please, here is a dollar, purchase a clue! Most of the photos I put up are of my children, and I spend half my day working with children.

I see that you are uninformed and clueless. It is not the fleas, it is the dogs. It is not the fleas, it is the dogs.

Trey

5:40 PM, June 12, 2007  
Anonymous Bugs said...

T - Perverts, kidnappers, lawyers, insurance salesmen - the usual culprits.

6:06 PM, June 12, 2007  
Blogger TMink said...

Thanks Bugs, how would they use the flickr photos to hurt my family? I have no identifying info on the site and had a friend of mine who works FBI internet predators to check it for me to make sure. He gave me the thumbs up, but I appreciate your continued advice and comment.

Trey

10:19 PM, June 12, 2007  
Blogger ricpic said...

Boys sweat. Girls "glow." But they both smell.

10:55 PM, June 12, 2007  
Anonymous Bugs said...

T - You have access to better info than I do. Call me paranoid...

12:08 PM, June 13, 2007  
Blogger TMink said...

Bugs, I am wondering if YOU have access to better info than I do! Honestly, call ME paranoid, but I would appreciate the specifics of your concerns. I do not want to put my family at risk, and you are a trustworthy source to me.

Trey

2:10 PM, June 13, 2007  
Anonymous social_butterfly said...

y'all sound waaaaayyyyy deeeep... hey what do y'all think of global warming? my bff thinks its all bs, but man i think that anything leonardo is passionate about, i'm passionate about!!!!

4:06 PM, June 13, 2007  
Blogger br549 said...

Like your new handle, Rosie.

9:31 PM, June 14, 2007  
Blogger Bart said...

I've come into this discussion late, but as the author of The Big Book of Boy Stuff and The Big Book of Girl Stuff, I read the preceding with great interest.

Regarding the disparity in the tone of the reviews that the two books received, I can point out the dismissive School Library Journal review of Boy Stuff was written by a female librarian at a very expensive private school in Washington, D.C. With one exception, hers was the only professional review of the book that I found unfair, and as Dr. Helen pointed out, the SLJ review of Girl Stuff (by a different reviewer) was extremely positive.

Of course, since I co-authored Girl Stuff with my five sisters and 50 students, one could argue that it is simply a superior book than the one I assayed alone. *smile*

Best,
Bart King
www.bartking.net
kingbart@comcast.net

1:41 PM, June 19, 2007  
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2:48 AM, June 08, 2009  

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