Bill Frist on Global Poverty and Health, Fred Thompson
The G8 is over, Bono has spoken and lots of people are talking about ways to help Africa. Our podcast guest today is Senator Bill Frist who talks about his new project--One Vote 08. The campaign is a non-partisian effort to fight AIDS, tuberculosis, and malaria and reduce poverty. He also discusses why he supports Fred Thompson for President.
You can listen online (no downloading needed) by going here and clicking on the gray Flash player. You can download the file directly and listen to it at your leisure by clicking right here. And you can get a lo-fi version, suitable for dialup, by going here and selecting "lo-fi." As always, a free subscription is available via iTunes. You can listen to our past archives at GlennandHelenShow.com.
This podcast is sponsored by Volvo at Volvocars.US.
You can listen online (no downloading needed) by going here and clicking on the gray Flash player. You can download the file directly and listen to it at your leisure by clicking right here. And you can get a lo-fi version, suitable for dialup, by going here and selecting "lo-fi." As always, a free subscription is available via iTunes. You can listen to our past archives at GlennandHelenShow.com.
This podcast is sponsored by Volvo at Volvocars.US.
posted by Helen at 7:55 AM
63 Comments:
lots of people are talking about ways to help Africa
According to a link from Instahubby, the best way may be to stop.
Peregrine John,
Yes, Glenn asks him about the linked article on the podcast.
Heh. Well, that's what comes of my not listening to the podcasts right away...
Another good one!
Thank God I have Bono to instruct me.
By the way, why does he only have one name? Did he donate the other one to an African who was too poor to afford his own?
Dr.Helen, as always a terriffic pod-cast. The more I listen, the more I learn. I'll also note that the more I hear about FDT, the more I lean towards supporting him and that ain't bad for this "FORMER" republican... Heh! (as Glenn might say.)
GM Roper,
Thanks for listening.
Dr. Helen, thanks for the informative commentary.
As you know, Fred is surging in the polls!
Today, we have posted a new article, poll numbers and a review of "The Fred Factor."
Fred Thompson 2008
I'm sorry Helen, but I have been doing everything Dr. Frist has been talking about in Nicaragua over the last 6 years with over half a million dollars of my own money. And while their are a few cases I am very proud of, my school, the water wells I have drilled, but more than anything the 3 or four kids I have taken of the streets and mentored through school; my general impression is that we need to stop the aid.
When you go into one of these countries and start handing things out, the people are always happy to see you, but if you leave for even 2 weeks, they go back to living the way they have for generations, and are perfectly happy to do so. The water wells are a perfect example: out of 78 that I have drilled over the last 4 years, 30 are non-functional because the communities refuse to organise to pay the electric bills. So in many we switched out to hand pumps. When the hand pumps break, the people go back to hiking 5 or 6 miles round trip to buy water for a price that would repair the pump in the well we drilled them in a single day. Then they wait for Don Tomas to come fix it.
Yes, we can save lives; I have saved many, I can name many of them and know them personally. Now, all of those kids whose lives I saved are now showing up at my door with a starving baby hanging off of each boob. It never stops.
As you know, I started a blog about my experiences - Don Tomas - in January. But that was right when Daniel Ortega was assuming the presidency of the country. I stopped posting to Don Tomas because I am not yet friends with enough officials in the new government to feel confident that something I say there might not affect my safety or that of my family.
The real problem is not resources, it's corruption. And to solve that problem you are taking on the task of changng systems of practices and values that have been in place for millenia.
That being said, I still keep trying, I leave for Nicaragua next week. My 5th trip this year.
Tomcal,
I agree that it is often corruption that is at the core of poverty and many of the problems that some third world country's face. In doing things like forgiving debt etc, corruption is encouraged and rewarded and the cycle continues. And as the old Chinese proverb says: "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." But as you pointed out, part of the problem is that some people and governments don't want to learn to fish. Thanks for all that you do and keep us posted on your trips if possible.
And if you keep allowing people to steal someone's fish it is essentially slavery.
Property rights are fundamental. Someone without property rights is essentially a slave. In fact look at the slavery systems throughout history - reduced or eliminated property rights were part of the system of controls.
That's one of the main problems with communism, socialism, collectivism, etc. as well - reduced property rights destroy incentives. Why work hard, create, innovate, etc. when you're going to be stopped altogether, or if you're successful some lazy, dunderheaded bureaucrat with a delusional superiority complex is going to steal the fruits of your labor?
In some poor areas the lack of enforced and stable property rights is the problem.
It sounds like it's more than *mere* corruption; it sounds like it's the people's values, habits, lifestyles, culture, whatever.
But we can't ever say that can we. Just deflect the focus to the corruption. Yeah, that's the ticket.
We'll never get anywhere this way.
The lack of property rights is all part of the Corruption. The rich and powerful have no problem obtaining and enforcing property rights.
And perhaps I shouldn't even say corruption, the word is misleading in that we in the western world see corruption as a crime. In most third world countries, practices that we call corrupt, bribery, bidder collusion, self-dealing, lying, etc., are just part of the game.
The problem comes in when we arrogantly go in and try to change these practices. We do it in various ways, but it always boils down to paying them money or forgiving debt in exchange for a promise to change future behaviour. As long as the payments roll in, the beneficiaries see it as a big party thrown by the gringos. When we go home, the party is over and everyone goes back to business as usual. But they know we'll be back to throw another party before long.
The reason that they can't get ahead by western standards is that they refuse to adopt western standards of accounting, contract enforcement, and non-discriminatory financing practices. Until that changes, let's be optimistic and say the change takes 1000 years, we aren't going to see much progress except in cases where we sit right there and babysit.
"...except in cases where we sit right there and babysit."
Something to be said for imperialism after all...
anonymous 12:14
We could get to the point where we don't see impoverished 3rd worlders as a problem for us to fix. Most of them don't have a problem with their lives, and certainly don't have a problem having many, many children. Here's an excerpt from a column from Sports Illustrated, of all places.
Seven months ago you and I found out that each day 3,000 African children die of malaria for the very sad reason that they can't afford mosquito nets over their beds. Didn't seem right to us. Sports is nothing but nets -- lacrosse nets, cutting down the nets, New Jersey Nets. So SI started the Nothing But Nets campaign. Doctors guaranteed that if you sent in $20, you'd save at least one kid's life, probably two.
It was the alltime no-brainer. Skip lunch; save a life. Buy the Top-Flites instead of the Titleists; save a life. Don't bet on the Redskins; save a life. Nothing to research. No government to topple. No warlords to fight.
Bless your little hearts, all 17,000-plus of you who chipped in more than $1.2 million -- enough to buy 150,000 nets, which the United Nations Foundation and the World Health Organization started hanging all over Nigeria, where kids younger than five are getting murdered by mosquitoes that come out only at night.
I know, because I saw the nets. Just got back. Feel a little bad about going without you. After all, it was your money. So let's pretend it was you who made the trip, not me.
Remember? Everywhere you went, people mistook you for King Tut. Women got down on their knees and kissed your hand. Whole towns threw festivals. The king in every ward summoned you to his one-room, one-lightbulb palace. One pointed his horsehair scepter at you and pronounced, "Thank you for dee nets. All my wives use dem!" Turns out he has four wives and 23 kids, and they're all under the nets, which is a good thing because the open sewer that runs right outside his shack is a kind of one-stop malaria center.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/rick_reilly/11/27/reilly1204/index.html
huh, that link didn't copy. I'll try again
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/rick_reilly/11/27/reilly1204/index.html
The Catholic Church isn't much help either, when they encourage families to have an average of 8 to 10 kids per family. I know virtually no families in the barrios like you see in the "little Maria" ads on TV, who dont have at least 5 kids. In virtually all of these families, 2 or 3 kids have died in infancy or early childhood. Most mothers give birth 10 to 12 times during their child-bearing years.
I bribed one mother to have a tubal ligation after #7 (five of which lived) in exchange for my putting her two teenagers through high school. I'm still not sure I did the right thing, but at least 2 kids are getting an education instead of having to work to support additional babies as the mother punches them out.
That infant mortality rate seems horrible to us, but they see it as just a fact of life. If one dies, a replacement will be along in 9 months. The village has a wake and everyone cries and gets drunk, but it's all forgotten the next day.
My auto mechanic in Managua (age 74) has 22 living kids(7 have died over the years), god only knows how many grand and great-grandkids and, a bun in the oven with his new wife. "Que Hombre!"
tomcal, you did the right thing on the tubal, if the goal is to bring the society into modernity.
The RC church is an impediment, but is it as much an impediment as the macho culture that praises the men for their ability to impregnate females?
I've learned to ignore those TV spots about little Maria. By the time the CCF processes my contribution, little Maria and her entire extended family will be living next door to me.
Anon 1:22:
Yes, the macho culture is a big problem as well. No amount of money would induce a man to get a vasectomy.
Anon 12:14:
Mosquito nets are great, the only problem is that it is not a self sustaining program, It requires us to continue sending them. And also, if you go back in a year I'll bet that a surprising number of them have been converted into bridal dresses.
anonymous 12:14-
It sounds like it's more than *mere* corruption; it sounds like it's the people's values, habits, lifestyles, culture, whatever.
But we can't ever say that can we. Just deflect the focus to the corruption. Yeah, that's the ticket.
We'll never get anywhere this way.
Those factors might play a role in some situations, but corruption is more than enough on its own. If someone thinks that what's theirs is theirs and what's yours is theirs too you're never going to get anywhere.
tomcal---I meant to highlight the number of children that the local chief produced while living next to an open sewer.
All the mosquito net donations in the world aren't going to fix that problem.
The king in every ward summoned you to his one-room, one-lightbulb palace. One pointed his horsehair scepter at you and pronounced, "Thank you for dee nets. All my wives use dem!" Turns out he has four wives and 23 kids, and they're all under the nets, which is a good thing because the open sewer that runs right outside his shack is a kind of one-stop malaria center.
I'm honestly just tired of the message that we in the west must limit our fertility, and limit our expenditures on luxuries so we can send money to third world folks who see nothing wrong with pumping out over 20 kids per man, even if they live in poverty and squalor.
Well, how dare we keep all the money and toys and good stuff for ourselves! We should learn to...just share.
Personally, I'd like to buy the world a Coke.
Hey, they don't mind the poverty and squalor. Isn't it kind of narcissistic and judgemental to try to turn them into ourselves?
Anon 2:25
Ah, sounds much more typical. I'll still bet they use them to make bridal gowns for the daughters...
Correction: the last was in response to 2:22.
Anon 2:25
I see more smiles and happines in the "poverty and squalor" of Nicaragua than I ever see here in the U.S. They live almost as long as we do (as long as they get through infancy), incidence of depression and suicide is lower than here. Every night there is a celebration of some sort, and most of the people are just plain joyful to be alive.
This kind of stuff is nonsense. We've been pouring billions of dollars into these regions to no effect. None. Here are two ideas that we should try:
1) Stop giving them money and food. Immediately.
2) Reduce trade barriers to imports from these countries.
(Plus, there's nothing more fucking annoying than seeing stars who make more money in a goddamn month than I'll see in a lifetime lecturing anybody on where to spend their money. It seems to me that they believe donating a few seconds of their time is morally superior to actually using their own cash. At least Bono makes a pretense at this. Ironically, Bill Gates spends billions with his foundation without giving self-aggrandizing speeches about what a great humanitarian he is. At least for now.)
Actually, I erred above. Our "aid" did have effects, very bad effects; it created generations of dependents and destroyed economies. (You simply cannot sustain a heavily agricultural society if you undercut the price of food stuffs with free food.)
Plus, there's nothing more fucking annoying than seeing stars who make more money in a goddamn month than I'll see in a lifetime lecturing anybody on where to spend their money. It seems to me that they believe donating a few seconds of their time is morally superior to actually using their own cash. At least Bono makes a pretense at this. Ironically, Bill Gates spends billions with his foundation without giving self-aggrandizing speeches about what a great humanitarian he is. At least for now
And there's even been some rumblings that some of these types are involved in defrauding people and sending the money to charity causes. Anyone out there know anything about this?
There's nothing worse than a wealthy person acting generous with someone else's money. What's theirs is theirs, and what's yours is theirs.
Imagine the worst, multiply by 10, and you still won't even be close to estimating the kind of waste that goes on in these organizations.
If you want to try to help, the ONLY way to do it is to go yourself.
Oil for food, anyone?
Anon wrote: "Property rights are fundamental. Someone without property rights is essentially a slave. In fact look at the slavery systems throughout history - reduced or eliminated property rights were part of the system of controls."
Wow. That is so true, and I had never put it together before. Psychologically it makes a BIG difference too. Land you own is different in your heart than land you rent.
Thanks for pointing this out to me, it was obvious to you, but a big, helpfule point for me.
Trey
Property rights are the key; ensuring that all people enjoy them is a huge problem, which to my knowleddge remains unsolved.
Peruvian economist Hernando de Soto has written extensively about the importance of property rights in fighting third world poverty.
One of his best selling books is entitled The Mystery of Capital: Why Capitalism Triumphs in the West and Fails Everywhere Else.
I haven't read his book yet, but I did see a very interesting program about him on cable a couple years back. Fascinating guy with great insights into the problems of third world economies and cultures.
It gives another explanaition why the hard left governments fail into oligarchy. I thought it was all due to corruption, the curruption of power and the fallen nature of people, but the lack of property rights is a huge part of the equation too. I see that now. Thanks.
Trey
The lack of property rights allows corruption to flourish.
Without property rights, you can take whatever you want whenever you want because it doesn't belong to anyone.
People often criticize American society as being too materialistic, and while there are legitimate criticisms in that area, the best way to describe the American economy and culture is one of ownership.
We don't have things, we own things, and it is ownership that gives us legal remedies for recovering losses and financial options to raise capital.
No economy will thrive and prosper without legal recognition and protection of ownership.
I cannot help thinking that the developed world's response to Africa (and other areas in the same position) smacks of Colonialism. Instead of troops keeping the population in check we have NGOs and aid.
Read Leave us alone by Kenyan economics expert James Shikwati.
...or guilt over past colonialism.
Let's make it all better with big checks and ships full of food.
But it's not confined to the third world. Look at the policies implemented during Johnson's War on Poverty in America.
Our domestic welfare programs did to our poor what generous aid did to the poor of the third world...made them dependent upon government for their very survival.
Aid programs should help people and nations become self-sufficient, not turn them into wards of the state or the UN.
Dogwood:
I am very familiar with De Soto, in fact I grew up in Peru and know the exact barrios he studies in the book you mention.
To me, the most facinating part is his investigation of informal or de facto property rights that develop where the official system fails. The perfect example is a street market where the vendors' rights to a certain locations or stalls is respected, even though they are sitting in public rights-of-way. The rights are enforced by the community itself, with no interference from the government. The problem is that such arrangements are not bankable, so the business cannot obtain capital to finance growth.
Davod:
Thanks for the link to Shikwati. His observations reflect exactly what I have seen in Nicaragua over the last 6 years. Foreign aid is an industry and the only real beneficiaries are the bureaucrats who administer it.
Again, if you really feel compelled to help, go yourself, find 2 or 3 promising kids, mentor them and help them stay in school. This is a job that requires a long-term commitment, by the way. If you can't make that commitment, don't even start; the people are better off without you.
Tomcal:
An interesting development in Niger regarding property rights In Niger, Trees and Crops Turn Back the Desert
The link goes to a NYT article so if you cannot get passed the password just Google Trees in Niger.
Davod:
Interesting, and the impression I get is that they have mostly done it by themselves. I am particularly impressed with the story of the guy who went and bought his own water pump, if that's what really happened. There is a great tendency in this kind of story to cover up the failures and downplay the possibility that some gringo may have sprung for the pump.
I have done it myself many times when I am invited to speak about our activities in Nicaragua. I try not to, but invariably I catch myself telling "stretchers", as Mark Twain used to call them, in order to please the crowd and bring in more donations.
Hopefully a group of missionaries won't go down there to help them modernize.
Tomcal, what is your concern about the missionaries?
Trey
A big problem is that once you start helping with the idea of maybe puting one kid through school, and of course you become personally involved with them.
Then, the first thing you know is that the kid's little brother is sick with some sort of chest, skin, or intestinal,infection. Or maybe Malaria or Dengue Fever. Well, you can't just let the little brother suffer and/or die, so you take them to the Dr. and buy medicine for them.
Then you notice that more and more of the family is getting sick all the time, so you buy more antibiotics (anything you can imagine is available at the pharmacy without prescription), but then one day you go by the house and you see that they have set up their own pharmacy with all the drugs you have purchased or donated! Well, you can't knock initiative so you just kind of schrug it off.
But if you dont stop it right there, pretty soon you have 10 starving families lined at your door. Some with real problems, some with scams.
I chose the name Don Tomas because every time I show up in Nicaragua now, it takes about a day for the word to get around the neighborhood. And from that point I give audience to 10 or 12 visitors each day, all saying "Don Tomas, I need your help". It's very much like the wedding scene in "The Godfather", except no one requests violence.
Trey:
The missionaries do a great deal of good,on the surface, but they are ultimately like all the other aid organizations, they give out something for nothing, which perpetuates a culture of dependency. The situations they create are not self sustaining. As soon as they leave, the local pastor they have teamed up with begins to skim things off the top.
Five years ago I delivered about $2,000 worth of books to a school run by a baptist group from Canada. We had a big party, everyone congratulated each other, and as soon as we left the local pastor sold the books and put a new roof on his house.
I also have a problem with the far right missionaries I meet on flights to Nicaragua. They all sit there reading their bibles and explain how they are going to save souls by bringing them to Jesus. When I explain that more than 90% of the country is Catholic, and therefore Jesus already plays a huge part in their lives, the answer is almost always "yes, the Catholic Church is a big problem".
I see an arrogance typical of Americans in this attitude, as though we now have a monopoly on God, as well as on knowing how to fix every other problem in the world.
But the bottom line is what I said at first, their involvement brings, in most cases, a culture of dependency, spiraling birth rates, and a system that will surely collapse under its own weight uver time.
Oh, well that sucks. As a Christian and a Protestant, anti-Catholic bigotry really pisses me off. Any bigotry does, but such intercine bigotry is beyond my tolerance.
The culture of dependency is a tough one. I deal with it a lot in my practice, but it is on a MUCH smaller scale. Once I make it clear that I do not have the answers but will support people as they find them, they usually either sigh in relief or get around to firing me when I will not take responsibility for their lives.
In desperate poverty, the moral pressure to "give" and "solve" must be extrordinary. How do you resist it?
Thanks for these posts, I am learning a lot and appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts.
Trey
I didn't used to be able to resist it, but then I learned that poverty is a relative term. Does it mean that you don't have running water? Does it mean that you don't have access to the most modern medicines - medicines that no one had access to 50 years ago? Does it mean you don't have a television? Even the poorest of the poor have televisions these days. Does it mean that you don't have a car?
Does it even mean that your children are starving when you intentionally had 10 of them because you knew that only half would survive? I honestly don't know the answer.
But the more I work with it, the more I believe that the aid we give just makes the "problem" worse. That's why I am not taking on any more cases.
the best way may be to stop.
I read the article and his ideas seem reasonable. I have also heard about organizations who give small loans to help Africans grow local businesses. Shikwati is a libertarian from Kenya. I am generally skeptical of American Libertarians' economic policies, because I think isolation would hinder a nation's and the world's economic potential.
tomcal: I always wonder if people who have a connection to another country are here legally, are you?
serket:
You are talking about micro-credit banks, which have enjoyed some success. However, if you actually factor in the full cost of administering them, which is usually provided free of cost by aid organisations, I'm not so sure.
Yes, I am a U.S. citizen with a valid U.S. Passport, issued at the Federal Building on Wilshire Blvd. in Los Angeles.
TC - I agree, your perspective on this subject is fascinating. My only experience with charity/aid issues is, literally, watching Sally Struthers commercials on TV. Oh, and the dude with the beard talking about Little Maria. Kind of hard to form decent opinions when that's all one has to go on.
Yep, the micro-credit theory has some merit I believe.
Trey
Yes, I am a U.S. citizen with a valid U.S. Passport, issued at the Federal Building on Wilshire Blvd. in Los Angeles.
Congratulations! Now my concerns are relieved. :-) Plus you are very fluent in English which is great. It sounds like you have been very successful in your life based on the amount of money you have donated. Good luck on lessening poverty for a few lucky people.
Well since English is my first language, I would hope that I am fluent in it. It is leaving me slowly though, as senile dementia sets in.
I am approaching my 49th birthday.
Serket:
Thanks for the "atta boy", but obtaining citizenship wasn't too hard. I was born here, along with 8 generations of my family (that's as far back as I can verify) before me.
Armed with those credentials, the Passport was a complete no-brainer.
TC - If it's not too much info, can you tell us how came to spend your youth in Peru? Child of the Foreign Service? Missionaries? Kidnapped by Peruvian gypsies?
We must know...
Oil Company Brat
That's what any U.S. expat kid is called anywhere in the world:
Army Brat
Navy Brat
Embassy Brat
Oil Brat
Gillette Brat
Ford Brat
Mining Brat
Airline Brat
etc...
tomcal...
I suppose any permanent change will take generations, like I think you said in an earlier post.
The task you have taken on is quite incredible. Even if you don't believe, there is a spot waiting for you inside the Pearly Gates.
An old joke, that was not funny then, and is not funny now.
A Somali arrives in Minneapolis as a new immigrant to the United States.
He stops the first person he sees on the street and says, "Thank you Mr. American for letting me in this great country, giving me food stamps, housing, free medical care, and free education!" The passerby says, "You are mistaken, I am Mexican."
The man walks on and encounters another passerby. "Thank you for having such a beautiful country here in America!" The person says, "I not American, I Vietnamese."
The new arrival walks further, and the next person he sees he stops, shakes his hand and says, "Thank you for the wonderful America!" The person raises his hand and says, "I am from the Middle East, I am not an American."
He finally sees a lady coming down the sidewalk and asks, "Are you an American?" She answers, "No, I am from Jamaica!" Puzzled, he asks her, "Where are all the Americans?"
The lady checks her watch and says, "Probably at work."
tomcal said "Well since English is my first language, I would hope that I am fluent in it. Thanks for the "atta boy", but obtaining citizenship wasn't too hard. I was born here, along with 8 generations of my family (that's as far back as I can verify) before me."
Doh! Maybe that'll teach me. It just seemed so plausible: you're fluent in Spanish, lived in Peru and have a strong connection to Nicaragua. I can trace my ancestors back pretty far too, but it helps that most of them are Mormon and the LDS Church keeps such great family records. Recently I found the names for about 75% of my 6th great grandparents. I can chase my father's direct male line to the 16th century.
Serket:
Yes, I am fluent in Spanish, but not as fluent as in English because Spanish has many fewer words and a lot has to be inferred by the reader/listener from the tone. And the speaker has to know how to project that tone, which can varies by geographic region.
Spanish as a much more emotional, more spititual language than English. A lot more is left to God and to fortune and to luck. In Spanish, the future is hardly ever certain, which gives birth to what is commonly called the "Mañana Syndrome".
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