Tuesday, May 22, 2007

Where are the Interest Groups for Boys?

Blogger Bob Krumm went to a recent high school graduation and noticed that men (boys) were in short supply (Hat tip: Instapundit). He noted that most of the academic honors also went to the women (girls). The possible reason for the lack of success for the boys? No special interest groups:

Much like our misguided welfare systems still focuses on the prevention of starvation when it is obesity that is the greater nutritional problem associated with poverty, our gender-based education programs now target the wrong sex for academic improvement. That puts boys at an even greater disadvantage since, unlike as for girls, there aren’t well-organized and powerful “male special interest groups” that will fight to give boys the boost they need.

I used to think that special interest groups were silly and a waste of time--thinking they emphasized victimhood at the expense of autonomy, but I am beginning to think I was wrong. Perhaps boys need a special interest group to stand behind them and see that their needs are presented equally. Because so far, the lack of one doesn't seem to be doing boys any good in regards to education.

Update: There is a special interest group called The Boys Project that advocates for legislative change and education to benefit boys. You can see more about the project here.


Anonymous TMink said...

I went to a fun conference on gender and neurology recently. It was cheap at $75, and really pretty fun.

The presenter went over how the typical female brain has good fit with our current school approach. High verbal skills, excellent passive learners, good relational skills, etc. And then the presenter discussed male brain superiority in terms of balance, spatial perception, motor coordination, stuff like that.

Most females have brains that are matched to dominating school academics while most males have brains that are matched to dominating dodgeball. Funny, but a bit true.

Is anyone aware of schools that promote more active learning for boys? Approaches that are geared to the brains of the students rather than the brains of the largely female educators?

I do not see the school problem as one of abuse, but one of clueless neglect. Just my opinion.


11:20 AM, May 22, 2007  
Anonymous Hal said...

Krumm doesn't say which school he was at, just a local public high school. Things were not like that at my school and it would have been useful to know more about that one to help in the head scratching.

On the interest group point, I was joking with my wife that the only folks without a special interest group looking out for them at the engineering school at which I work are white males. Not sure if it makes any difference to achievement or job prospects in this case, though. I don't have data.

11:33 AM, May 22, 2007  
Anonymous Bugs said...

My high school had active learning for boys. It was called "Shop class."

11:42 AM, May 22, 2007  
Anonymous Jim said...

Clueless neglect, or maybe well-meaning exasperation.

There are of course some gender bigots in teaching, who just hate anything male, and who are in essence teachers' pets who never really ever left school, but they are a small monrotiy. Mostly there are women trying to teach boys without any insight into what it is to be male. That is sad but not evil.

Then there are some wonderful women teachers who do great things with male students. I knew one as my cooperating teacher when I was student teaching. She was a big woman who was a natural leader. She didn't seem like she had been a tomboy, but she was a natural fit with the boys. They gave her most of the ADHD kids to work with because she was so good. Her secret was that she genuinely like the kids and respected them as individuals, especially when it came to expecting results from them.

All that is wonderful, but it is a scandal that there are so few men are in teaching. Vulnerablity to abuse charges is one big reason, and no risk to kids and mothers who make false claims and push them. Hiring preferences are another - declarations about wanting to hire men seem to take the place of actual hiring of men. NEA is always so concerned about under-represented groups except the obvious one. It's conventional wisdom that kids need teachers from their own groups as role models, except boys for some reason. No reason, actually.

11:46 AM, May 22, 2007  
Blogger dadvocate said...

I agree with tmink's points. My oldest son graduated this past Sunday in a class of 28 from a small (obviously) parochial school. Of the three valedictorians and a salutorian, Only one was a male. Having known most of these kids since age 3 or 4 I'm certain the girls really aren't smarter than the boys, just better suited for the way our schools operate.

When they mentioned athletic achievement, all most all were boys. And, they certainly acheived more. One is a state champion and record holder in swimming, another a national champion in gymnastics.

Lloyd Memorial High School in Erlanger, KY instituted gender segregated classes this year with the primary purpose being to help boys. I haven't heard how it's working and am not sure if the methods are different. It will take a few years to see.

But, as tmink says, most schools are clueless, very clueless.

11:53 AM, May 22, 2007  
Blogger Troy said...

At the university where I teach our population is approx. 63-37 girl/guy and has been for awhile. It's a small Christian liberal arts school.

My oldest son is in 2d grade and I've noticed his education seems "wimpy" for lack of a better word. Don't get me wrong penmanship -- even if it is with a pencil is a virtue, but come on! I'm not even sure what I mean by that -- it's just a feeling I have that his education is dofferent than mine was.

1:10 PM, May 22, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Seems to me that girls waste as much time on busy work as boys. My daughter comes home with all kinds of busy-worksheets with her doodles all over the back. Maybe girls just LOOK like they enjoy the busywork more than boys. To me, it doesn't matter if someone enjoys the busywork: if it is busywork, it should be dropped.

1:27 PM, May 22, 2007  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

Trey, the presenter sounds biased. Did he neglect the topics that got Mr. Summers to resign? Had he, you might have concluded that boys were more wired for science, math, engineering, etc. instead of dodgeball.

1:33 PM, May 22, 2007  
Blogger Karen said...

Institutionalized schools have been so thoroughly feminized that that is one of the biggest reasons I homeschool my son.

1:34 PM, May 22, 2007  
Blogger JCJim said...

I can tell you where at least some of the boys are, and where they are thriving. I have a 14 year old son who did 9 years of the touchy-feely school of learning (K-8). He did very well academically, but was many times frustrated by his assignments, and every parent teacher meeting had it's "he is a good student but needs to learn to control himself better in class" lecture. (I am reliving this now with my 11 yo son, it was never an issue with my daughter who was always praised for her behavior).
He is now finishing his freshman year of HS and for the first time since 2nd grade is excited to go to school each day. He attends a Jesuit college prep school for boys (approx 1000 students), the faculty is about 65% male and competition, both academically and athletically is encouraged and supported. There are 17 varsity sports, plus intramurals. They also compete in Math, Debate and College Bowl style events, plus dozens of clubs and other activities. They even compete over which homeroom can raise the most money for missions. While it is not for everyone, most of the boys flourish in this environment: 99% of them go on to 4 year colleges. Although it is located in the middle of a city, it draws about 40% of its students from wealthy suburbs with highly regarded and well funded schools systems. They commute in by train and car, for some kids it is over an hour each way, to attend a very racially mixed school. Why? For the sports? For the academics? For the religious affiliation? Because their fathers graduated from the school? All those reasons are in the mix. I believe the biggest reason is they stay, and juggle (and struggle with) the travel, academics(a number do fail out every year) and athletics is that they get to be adolescent boys, without anyone looking askance at them or trying to make them behave like something other then what they are. If they get out of line punishment is swift and sure, and sometimes given out while barely keeping a straight face, but the line is drawn differently then it is in public schools.
So when you are looking at your local public school graduation and wondering where all the boys are, maybe they are at their commencement, out of sight of the forces of that have so influenced school policy, celebrating having been allowed to grow into young men.

1:52 PM, May 22, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I put this up on Bob Krumms blog but…

Most CEOs are men. Most prisoners are men. Most graduates are women.

It may be that all of these differences are due to systematic character differences between the sexes.

I find it hard to believe they are all caused by systematic discrimination against one sex.

I find it harder to trust anyone who claims that anything that disadvantages one sex is due to discrimination, but whenever the other sex draws the short straw, that is because they are inherently inferior in some way.

Obviously I have no faith in women’s rights groups. Or men’s rights groups.

With luck they will neutralise each other, and then we can try to find out what is actually happening.

2:13 PM, May 22, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

anonymous 2:13:

In order to neutralize the women's rights groups, there must also be a powerful men's rights group. Women have the whole Democratic party behind them, what group do the men have? That's right. None.

2:18 PM, May 22, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My daughter attends a school in which there are exactly zero male teachers. She's doing fine, but the last school region report shows that boys in that school are scoring on average 13 percentage points lower than the girls on standardized tests. This is in grades 1-6, so the gap already exists long before high school.

I have to believe that this is the result of a complete lack of male role models and male authority figures in the school. There are precious few 'boy' activities (the closest is the chess club). The sports are all non-competitive, non-contact, and mixed gender. Recess play time is strictly controlled - boys can't be the little wild creatures they need to be to blow off steam. On the other hand, bullies seem to have free run of the other boys. The school has very little in the way of punishment for them, and there are no scary male authority figures to keep them in line.

If I had a boy in the school system today, I would be very worried. The boys are treated like girls with shorter hair, and the ones that are unruly are either left to run amok or medicated because they have a 'disorder'.

2:32 PM, May 22, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Is anyone aware of schools that promote more active learning for boys?"


Instead of coloring a picture of a knight, the boys make swords and shields and be knights. Instead of watching a nature film, get outside and run and watch bugs and snakes. (This is better for the girls, too.) Math and reading can be taught in the way best for the particular boy (or girl), not the way it works for the masses.

In my circle of homeschooling families, the mothers acknowledge that their girls would probably do great in a conventional school, while the boys would likely struggle and suffer. Anecdotal evidence, to be sure. But I see it over and over again.

2:43 PM, May 22, 2007  
Anonymous TMink said...

Hey Olig, I quoted the presenter way out of context because what he said made me laugh. He did mention the things that you did, it was really an excellent presentation. It was my selection that made it looked biased.

I recalled the title, it was "His Brain, Her Brain" and really a well spent $75 for the CEUs.

Inspired by this and other recent posts, I started a flickr group caled The Secret Life of Boys. No big agenda, it just felt like a fun idea. There are really mostly only my photos now, but I am hopeful that the people I have asked to contribute will, and it will be a fun and healthy celebration of boys and the boy in the man.

So check it out in a few days (this is May 22nd) and if you have some appropriate photos, please post them!



3:10 PM, May 22, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If such an interest group were to develop, wouldn't they be dismissed as a bunch of whiners?

3:31 PM, May 22, 2007  
Anonymous Locomotive Breath said...

My highly-athletic son went to a local prep school. The teachers we had the most trouble with had never had brothers or sons.

The Honor Society was about 85% female. The administration was questioned about that and saw no problem.

He's now at an all male college and, duh, it's working out a lot better for him.

3:33 PM, May 22, 2007  
Anonymous TMink said...

Anon, I think that there is always a risk of being a whiner or being perceived a whiner if you complain. Part of it has to do with the style that you use to complain, and part of it has to do with the attitude of the audience.


4:33 PM, May 22, 2007  
Anonymous ceramic said...

First off, I know that as a kid, I liked doing things by myself and resented my parents stepping in. And, to that end, I'm not sure what a special interest group for boys would do? If I needed an outlet for something that wasn't available, I made it up myself or with friends -- which probably reflected in our grades, but who cares. I know I enjoyed my youth. Not knowing what it entails, I think a special interest group for boys would be a disservice.

5:22 PM, May 22, 2007  
Blogger TMink said...

Ceramic wrote: "Not knowing what it entails, I think a special interest group for boys would be a disservice."

Not knowing what it entails, how do you form an opinion on it?


5:25 PM, May 22, 2007  
Anonymous ceramic said...

"Not knowing what it entails, how do you form an opinion on it?"

Well, easily. I don't like things that interfere needlessly. And until it is displayed somehow that it might do some good, I hold to that opinion. Not saying that I wouldn't try something because of that opinion, hoping to be wrong, but I don't expect much more than trouble.

5:43 PM, May 22, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hmmm... Interest group for boys. Sounds like Cub and Boy Scouts. Oh, no that can't be right; they exclude Gays and Atheists.

6:14 PM, May 22, 2007  
Anonymous Nick said...

I do think that any sort of men's group would definitely be considered whiners--at least initially. Then, you've got the other piece that most guys would probably think that's kind of weird--until you articulated the need; then, they'd probably get it.

One challenge I think is that some of the people who are active in the men's movement are really touchy-feely therapist types, which, while cool and I'm glad they're involved, don't really seem to engage normal guys. Plus, guys aren't joiners in the same way women are.

This issue makes me a little sad because seriously, as Dr. Helen says, women have an entire HUGE infrastructure to support them and men are just barely getting started, though the problems are large. We need an infrastructure too--but in order for that to happen the issues need to be packaged and mainstreamed.

7:21 PM, May 22, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

this is a two edged sword, certainly... helping them up without making them rely on you is very difficult, but this is generally what a boy needs... and there have been many good replys. What I have the most difficulty with [I have a 12yr old boy] is that no one seems to be willing to make him 'step up to the plate' The is boring stuff in school. BUT YOU STILL HAVE TO DO IT. Just like later in life, there are things you don't want to do, and that's the breaks. Mollycoddling them to save their feelings doesn't work in the RW, and giving them a sense of entitlement doesn't help. Challenge on the other hand, can help many but not all. As with my own, getting good grades isn't an interesting challenge at all. Proving you know something IS, but that isn't the tack his teachers take. I'd agree that some of this is a disconnect with teching styles that work for boys vs. girls... rather than a lack of male teachers, although that doesn't help. I can only remember one or 2 males in my elementary career as well, and I had some females that would have made Thatcher look soft. I think that is the thing. There is some fear, that bruising the fragile ego of a child should be avoided at all cost, and this doesn't seem to work as well with boys. It is the parnets though that have the final say, and I and my ex agreed to move the kids around a bit, because the teachers and administration simply were not keeping anything under control at his old school...

The bottom line is when did it become a bad thing to make things work for both genders, not by making them the same, but by making them both the best they could be...

oh, wait, my idealism is showing...

7:25 PM, May 22, 2007  
Blogger ricpic said...

Girls always did best in school. I had a crush on Ursula September, and while I was staring at the back of her neck she was staring at the blackboard and getting A's. And I wasn't. But it was worth it. What a pretty neck.

8:35 PM, May 22, 2007  
Anonymous Econ_Scott said...

There's Been A special Interest Group for Boys, Wtih outstanding leadership, Well Designed, well Run, Well Funded. All the Military Academies ask if you were part of it.

It's been around since 1903, but got a big boost in 1910.

Norman Rockwell's first paying gig was to do illustrations for the Organization's Magazine, Boys' Life.

It's the Boy Scouts. That, Sports, a boys GPA and SAT scores are all the awards that "Boys to Men" really need.

I am priveledged to serve in teaching boys Fly Fishing, Rifle, and Shotgun, in association with the local troop which has the 2nd highest percentage of local troop members that make Eagle Scout, in the nation (Only 18 Merit Badges and a Service Project out of a potential of 121 badges, is required but not all scouts make it usually due to lack of parent mentors)

The Boy Scouts isn't for everybody, but they will take anybody (almost) who really wants to do it and mold character.

8:40 PM, May 22, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Rather than special interest groups, maybe pick up a copy of Colin Powell's autobiography? He screwed around in school too, until he perceived what his Jamaican immigrant parents were working those long hours for. In college, he joined ROTC. The grades picked up, he liked the comraderie, and found a career.

Make progress, not excuses.
Be ready for opportunity when it comes, as it always will, in life.
There's a reason "special interest groups" have a negative tinge, even with their success stories. And there are groups, as noted above, for young men who are ambitious enough in seeking out opportunities.

8:50 PM, May 22, 2007  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

To AC 6:14 -- couldn't tell if you were being humerous or not.

econ_scott -- cub and boy scouts are a boys organization only in that they don't have girls (as the girl scouts don't have boys). Since they are a private institution, they may have restrictive enrollment, but to call them an organization for boys (without qualification) is dishonest to say the least.

What would be more useful is an organization that does not discriminate.

"The Boy Scouts isn't for everybody..."

Very true.

9:10 PM, May 22, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

dunno, Oligonicella, boys and girls ARE different, and they need different things. Within scouting as well, yes, not for everyone. But these are not Interest groups, in the political sense and that I think is what the Ms. H was actually getting at. Who are the groups that get standards set? Who are the groups that set curriculae. These are the groups you would want to lobby for a better playing field.

I think the word we are looking for is "differentiated" meaning different styles are needed for a squirming boy, versus a girl willing to hang of every word. This is true of the things they are interested in, the clubs they belong to, and on. My kid was not interested in Scouting, is interested in Robotics instead. So that is the kind of club he is in. It is I who am trying to take care of the codes of ethics, and behavior that scouting may try to provide...

9:30 PM, May 22, 2007  
Anonymous Econ-Scott said...

oligonicella You Said -
" to call them an organization for boys (without qualification) is dishonest "

And a Memo to You:

Grow a brain.

You are not even a very good pseudo intellectual, You're a dilettante, merely a Poseur.

You are EXACTLY the kind of person that has taken the California Public Schools from 1st in the Nation to Worst.

Do the kids a favor, and stay away from them.

And is it merely that you have an ax to grind and hate the Boy Scouts for "other reasons" ?

9:31 PM, May 22, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

anonymous 7:25-

...and giving them a sense of entitlement doesn't help...

Except when you're dealing with things they are entitled to - like fundamental rights. Letting other people violate those doesn't work too well in the Real World.


And is it merely that you have an ax to grind and hate the Boy Scouts for "other reasons" ?

The Scouts aren't fool-proof. I've met people who are dishonest, unethical, criminal, etc. with a Scouting background.

12:46 AM, May 23, 2007  
Anonymous Econ-Scott said...

Anonymous --

You Said -- "The Scouts aren't fool-proof. I've met people who are dishonest, unethical, criminal, etc. with a Scouting background."

And A Memo to you:

Grow A Brain.

Show me a large organization anywhere, with human beings in it, that doesn't have it's share of bad apples.

Others however seem to attract them.

Since you meet alot of criminals, the endeavors you are involved must attract them. Or maybe it's just you.

3:51 AM, May 23, 2007  
Blogger jw said...

One thing which is very different for boys is in bigotry: Anyone who promotes contempt for girls within the school system is soundly tromped on; anyone who promotes contempt for the boys is ignored. Help and silence. That difference is huge and important.

I do think that most educators are cluelless.

econ_scott: Here in Canada there is no such thing as boy scouts. There is Scouts, which is for boys and girls. There is also Girl Guides which is girl only. The Scout program MUST be gender neutral, that's the way of it. There CAN BE no thing which is male only or male oriented, that would be discrimination in Canada (and most countries of the first world).

I think we do need a powerful lobby speaking for boys & men: There is simply too much power in the women's groups and too much complexity in politics. Change cannot happen without a powerful lobby group, sad to say.

4:16 AM, May 23, 2007  
Blogger Charlie on the PA Turnpike said...

The Boy Scouts or America are being unfairly targeted in the same way that the special interest groups have gone too far in support of girls *over* boys.

The big difference is that where the SIGs gets support from various sources, the Boy Scouts are often the direct target of these SIGs. Oddly, if the BSA ever targeted any of these groups for criticism, they'd be called hateful.

7:27 AM, May 23, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yeah, those women's groups are really powerful. That's why most Presidents, congresspeople, business leaders and billionaires are women.

9:05 AM, May 23, 2007  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

No, no other reasons at all.

"The Boy Scouts isn't for everybody, but they will take anybody (almost) who really wants to do it and mold character."

You neglected to point out that those they won't take, they won't take because of religious or sexual orientation bigotry, not any unethical behavior on the boy's part. This means they exclude around one in five boys, which means they are unsuitable as a program for promoting equality, or as a group supported by public schools without the schools providing a group which supports the other twenty percent of boys.

It's also interesting that you dun anon for hanging around people with scouting backgrounds who are less than admirable, ignoring his point that Scouting did not prevent said people from being so.

It's a pretty good program. For what it does and those it deigns to accept. But, it's only a group doing group things.

9:06 AM, May 23, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"At the university where I teach our population is approx. 63-37 girl/guy and has been for awhile. It's a small Christian liberal arts school."
Check the stats for an engineering school and you'll find the ratios quite different.

"Women have the whole Democratic Party"
I disagree with this. "Feminists" have the whole Democratic Party. The feminists organizations are looking out for their own power structure, not necessarily what's best for women.

"Is anyone aware of schools that promote more active learning for boys?"
Nice answers about home schooling by the anon. I actually believe in active learning in general. To be a good engineer, there is book work but there is also a practical element. Here, I'm very concerned about technology trends and the resulting reduction in Active Learning opportunities. Boys/kids used to learn how things work by (a) taking apart the clock, (b) fixing the car, et cetera. You will not learn much from taking apart today's digital clocks. Cars have fuel injection so you can't work on them as much as you used to. Another good hobby for active learning is Amateur Radio. Pilot training is getting dumbed down because students use their GPS too much instead of the special purpose manual calculator and map. Legos has some very good toys for learning about robotics. Regardless of gender, I'm exposing my kids to both styles of learning: book reading (or computer games) and active physical involvement with objects in the environment. We'll then see where their aptitude takes them.

While I'm glad I went into engineering, I did sometimes feel pushed into it by the high school counselor (male) who was responding to general societal pressure by women's groups. I did not have as much active learning as some of the guys, and had a lot of trouble with lab classes. Eventually, via boyfriends, I happened to tap into the study groups (and professor test files!) on the guy's dorms. I belatedly got the active learning via joint hobbies with my boyfriend-turned-spouse.

We intend for ALL our kids to be able to cook, do laundry, know basic car trouble-shooting, do some gardening, learn and do basic house repair tasks (find the appropriate how-to book, then do it), drive a stick shift car; reload ammo (chemistry), break down and reassemble a pistol (mechanical engineering), and basic shooting; play piano at least 1 year, swim, et cetera. For social skills, I expect a mix of an individual sport versus a team activity (a sport or choir/band).

Just our personal parenting philosophy.

9:45 AM, May 23, 2007  
Anonymous craichead said...

This is something I've noticed with my now 6 yo daughter.

We sent her to a Montessori pre-school and kindergarten, 3 years total. During those 3 years, the girls outnumbered the boys about 4:1.

She goes to Bible day camp every summer, also for three years. One year, the boys were outnumbered 10:1! The women who run it could've cared less too. Each group at the Bible camp wore a team hat. One group's hat was pink. The one boy in the group refused to wear the pink hat and was given a red one.

It's really sad that no one with sons seems to have much of a problem with it.

Philip Wylie was dead on. Momism is destroying our culture.

9:53 AM, May 23, 2007  
Anonymous craichead said...

Also, there's a huge taboo about even pointing it out.

I'm often accused of "having a problem with women" because I ask,

"Why do you think the girls outnumber the boys by so much?"

After accusing me of misogyny, they climb into their SUV and drive to the mansion to watch Al Gore talk about global warming.

9:56 AM, May 23, 2007  
Anonymous TMink said...

Anon 9:45 said some really thoughtful things while making some good points. I have a request for you. Please post under some kind of screen name so I can keep track of your posts. I appreciate them and hate them getting lost in the chaff of some of the other anon posts.

You may not have been here long enough to wade through the invective, hatred, bigotry, and trollish nature of some of the anons. The regulars have, and it (the virulent anons)is not a group you want to be associated with!


10:09 AM, May 23, 2007  
Blogger dadvocate said...

Oligonicella - you are correct that Boy Scouts choose to associate according to religion and sexual orientation. There is a right of freedom of association in America.

What you omit, is that worldwide there are Boy Scout units in virtually every religion. You also omit that Girl Scouts are gender "bigots." Boy Scouts have programs in which girls paricipate, called Venturing. When my son goes to Boy Scout camp this summer, 10-20 girls will be in attendance. Girl Scouts have no progams involving boys.

A few years ago, our area Girl Scouts needed adult leaders. My son's Scoutmaster, who has decades of experience, volunteered to help. Oh, no! Men not allowed. But, Boy Scouts have adult female leaders.

Why do Girl Scouts get a free ride? Personally, I could care less if someone is gay or not, don't believe in work discrimintation according to sexual orientation, but people in private groups have, and should have, the right to associate with whom they choose. Indeed, your attitude that they have to associate with whom you think they should is part of the problem.

Lastly, I've helped with my sons' Scouts for the last 14 years or so. I've never witnessed nor heard of any incident of discrimination according to sexual orientation. However, if there is a case of sexual molestation, it's national news.

11:34 AM, May 23, 2007  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

dadvocate --

I mentioned their right to do so and that the GS are sex exclusive as well. I don't need to include the BS having many religions in their organization to show their religious bigotry, just that they exclude atheists.

What part of "Since they are a private institution, they may have restrictive enrollment..." indicates I believe they should be forced to associate with those whom they don't wish to? Sounds a helluva lot like "but people in private groups have, and should have, the right to associate with whom they choose". You jump to conclusions.

"If a youth comes to a Scoutmaster and admits to doing wrong, like stealing, lying, cheating or vandalizing, the normal procedure is to counsel the youth privately and sympathetically...If the youth admits to being a homosexual, the Boy Scouts' policy is to instantly terminate his association with Scouting.", R.D. Pool & M.S. Geller vs. Boy Scouts of America..." Commission on Human Rights, Government of the District of Columbia, 1998-MAY-1

11:50 AM, May 23, 2007  
Anonymous Jim said...

Memo to econ_scot:

Grow some manners.

"Hmmm... Interest group for boys. Sounds like Cub and Boy Scouts."

They are not politically active like NOW or NARAL. Something along those lines would be the kind of interest group Helen is talking about. Boy Scouts hasn't done much - anything at all - in the area of false rape allegations or teachers raping/sexually abusing boys or educational disaprities, which as it happens is the topic of this discussion.

To the commenter who thinks [she] is scoring a point by pointing out that there is no female president or whatever - why do women's groups need women in those positions if they can get all they want form men, and perhaps more from men than from women in those positions? It would be intersting to inventory all the gains of the women's movement, starting with the suffrage movement, and see how many of those gains were granted by men in power, rather taken. Basically all, I think it will be.

11:58 AM, May 23, 2007  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

Trey --

Utterly uninterested in maintaining a Flicker account. I have a great pic of grandson. If you want a copy, email tarbaby@prozarks.com

12:04 PM, May 23, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Isn't if obvious that there should be separate schools and ciriculi for boys and girls? Rather than common sense and intuition, lets just spend 100 years for science to confirm the commonsensical while the civilization languishes with guinea pigs.

12:48 PM, May 23, 2007  
Blogger dadvocate said...

Oligonicella - I only read your 9:05 am comment and didn't see your earlier comments about Girl Scouts. But, you were wrong about this "only in that they don't have girls "

As I said, I've personally seen no actual discrimination. I feel most of the incidents you hear about are setups by the person discrimintated against.

One kid, who claims he doesn't believe in God, I know in another state joined the Scouts knowing fullwell the Scouts rules, etc. He had a great time for a few years but then started telling the other kids he didn't believe in God, they told the Scoutmaster and a big brouhaha erupted. The kid began calling the Scouts "evil" but failed to accept responsibility for his role in the whole deal.

It's like the people who complain about the Catholic Church not allowing female priests. If that bothers you so much become a Episcopalion or something.

My son is in a Scout because it offers opportunities in outdoor adventures and outdoor skills that are extremely hard to find elsewhere. The Scouts are attacked because its stance on religion and sexual orientation falls in line with traditional male values. But, show me a better existing alternative for Scouting type activiteis for boys. There isn't one.

We need to provide opportunities for boys to be boys. Suburban YMCA's (remember what YMCA is an abbreviation for?) are dominated by women now. Check out the programs and staff at one. Boys Clubs are now Boys and Girls Clubs. And, now the intolerant left wants to destroy the Boy Scouts.

1:36 PM, May 23, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


Show me a large organization anywhere, with human beings in it, that doesn't have it's share of bad apples.

Others however seem to attract them.

Since you meet alot of criminals, the endeavors you are involved must attract them. Or maybe it's just you.

In some situations the scouting seemed to be an element. Some kind of mindset like "everything I do is OK or automatically above reproach because I'm a scout" or "everything the scouts do is automatically OK". Maybe its just general groupthink or collectivism, I'm not sure. But if they're doing their job correctly they should be training moral individuals, not individuals who will do something immoral as long as a larger group or the "community" is doing it.

1:40 PM, May 23, 2007  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

dadvocate --

As the general topic I was addressing was the lack of organizations in schools to meet boys interests vs the same for girls, I stand by what I said. The Boy Scouts are not such an organization because they discriminate -- unless an organization is provided which addresses specifically those discriminated against by them.

As to the "only in that they don't have girls". That referred to the concept that they were a boy's organizaton, as in all boys included. Hence.

You may feel as you wish, of course, but the quote I provided was from The Commission on Human Rights and indicate the Boy Scout's general policy of action.

People change. A boy may join while religious and then become areligious. This then, would force his resignation. I find nothing admirable there.

2:28 PM, May 23, 2007  
Anonymous Cousin Dave said...

: "What part of 'Since they are a private institution, they may have restrictive enrollment...' indicates I believe they should be forced to associate with those whom they don't wish to? "

Well, for one, there's the fact that in the very next paragraph, you cite a legal case against the Boy Scouts that sought to do the very thing that you claim not to believe in ... " 'If the youth admits to being a homosexual, the Boy Scouts' policy is to instantly terminate his association with Scouting.', R.D. Pool & M.S. Geller vs. Boy Scouts of America..." How about citing a case against the Girl Scouts for its complete and categorical exclusion of males? Do you even know of such a case?

2:33 PM, May 23, 2007  
Anonymous Cousin Dave said...

Oligonicella, I challenge you again to maintain logical consistency: How can you repeatedly and vociferously claim that the Boy Scouts should be legally compelled to provide services for boys who carry beliefs that go against the organization's values, while at the same time you excuse the Girl Scouts for its unconditional discrimination policy against the 50% of the U.S. population who had the misfortune to be born gender-incorrect? If you contine to slam the one while excusing the other, then you are being just plain hypocritical.

2:36 PM, May 23, 2007  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

cousin dave --

I challenge you to read the posts.

I explicitly stated the Boy Scouts can have as members whom they want. Oddly, you provided my quote to such. The cite was in reference to a point by dadvocate. Context. It defines conversation.

"How can you ... claim that the Boy Scouts should be legally compelled..."

Please cut and paste the sentences where I did that.

"while at the same time you excuse the Girl Scouts for its..."

Please do the same for that.

"It's a pretty good program. For what it does and those it deigns to accept. But, it's only a group doing group things."

Yeah. Horrible body check there.

4:22 PM, May 23, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

As someone who considered becoming a secondary education teacher years ago (to pay for classes to teach at the college level eventually), my perspective was this: Education degrees are a waste of everyones time and money. I walked into exactly one class, listened to the course explanation, left and dropped it for another core class. I was the president of the history honor society and asked other members that were sticking it out in Secondary education and was told out of 60 credit hours, they only found 4 useful... and those were student teaching. Mull on that number of credit hours devoted to the "education" part of a degree. Considering the average degree was around 128 credit hours, I'd say the universities are robbing the teachers of tomorrow blind. I can't say I am suprised by the endless stream of horror stories about public schools these days. So boys aren't meeting the current standards of education? Perhaps it is the system in general that needs to be overhauled, if not disolved.

4:42 PM, May 23, 2007  
Blogger JCJim said...

Anon 4:42.....

My mother taught for many years and she always said, "those who can, do; Those who can't, Teach; Those who can't teach, teach teachers."

7:57 PM, May 23, 2007  
Anonymous Cousin Dave said...

Oligonicella: "I explicitly stated the Boy Scouts can have as members whom they want."

Then why do you keep bringing the issue up, and attaching legal contexts to it? If there's one thing I hate, it's passive-aggressiveness.

11:19 PM, May 23, 2007  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

I don't. I cited once.

I'm responding to comments. Anyone can just scroll up and read my five posts, four of which have the name of the poster I'm responding to as the lede and note that the one that didn't was an obvious response to econ-scott. To anyone who reads the thread, that is.

Noticed no cut and pastes to support your previous false allegations.

7:27 AM, May 24, 2007  
Blogger Charlie on the PA Turnpike said...

Oligonicella said...

People change. A boy may join while religious and then become areligious. This then, would force his resignation. I find nothing admirable there.

Yes, people change, and often rapidly (especially the young) - i.e. in the course of a year or two or three.

Whereas organizations do not change rapidly, in that they take many years or more to change.

Isn't this really the point of having a consistent interest group for boys? To have a stable rudder to help them along their way?

8:12 AM, May 24, 2007  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

Atheist and religious boys can be helped along their way by atheist or religious persons. I see no conflict.

3:41 PM, May 24, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Check out Paul Slocumb's book "Hear Our Cry:Boys in Crisis." It provides lots of data in a relevant and readable form.

8:33 AM, May 27, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

So...what you're saying is, special interest groups are bad unless...a special interest group is needed! Like, you seem to say, in this case...where boys are now in need of their own special interest group. I know you are trying to be ironic, but you actually appear to be irony-impaired. The irony is that special interest groups are often a good thing and yet you usually dismiss them all out of hand, Now we learn that they are actually OK as long as they serve your needs.

6:35 PM, May 27, 2007  
Blogger br549 said...

I was bounced from the Boy Scouts many years ago, for getting caught smoking. I was heart broken. Should I have sued?

There are huge differences between boys and girls. Viva la difference!
Were there girls in my scout troop, I can only imagine the increase of playing doctor via flashlight on camping trips. The curiosity and opportunity would have been troublesome for the leaders. I suppose it's different today.

Hopefully, boy and girl scouts are teaching kids to be comfortable in their own skin, as well as other things, which is very helpful for what comes down the road.

But I have to wonder what would make a girl want to be a boy scout?
Or a boy, a girl scout? It appears to me they would have to somehow have been "sold" on the idea, as opposed to coming up with it on their own.

9:42 AM, June 02, 2007  
Anonymous Ennuipundit said...

I know I am going to sound simplistic. But I fear the answer to the question posed - "Where are interest groups for boys?" - is fairly simple. Fathers are a natural interest group, interested in the success of their sons, specifically, and of all sons, generally.

Dads are the basis of good sons, so it starts at a young age.

But good dads are not exactly in high supply. The men of my generation have been taught to be less assertive, more passive, and many of us have become aggressive as a result. Our already well-documented communication gap has become worse. But then our inferiority is reinforced by a relentless popular culture that portrays men as one of two ridiculous stereotypical extremes, stupid or sex-obsessed. The fool or the Lothario.

It doesn't require legislation. Heaven help us men if government is all that can save us. What we need are for the current generation to check their egos at the door, get the help they need to put away the old man (to crib from the Apostle Paul's comment) and become the men we are all capable of being.

Spending two years working with a Cognitive Behavioral Therapist was not always perfect, but it was the beginning of my emergence from two decades of mental illness. At 31, that's a lot of luggage to be carrying around, but when I have sons, they will be better off, because their father won't be handing out any baggage when they arrive.

We need dads in so many ways. The nurturing instinct in mothers (I see it in my wife already and again we are childless, so far) naturally wants to take all pain away. But pain is a most marvelous force, for it motivates us to change that which causes us pain. Without pain,t here is no growth. In a society packed to the gills with enablers in various guises, pain can be hard to feel. The sting of rejection is explained away as she wasn't your type. The consequences of self-abusive behavior is rationalized as the self inflicting victim is going through a rough stretch.

And so pain becomes evanescent. And with it that opportunity to grow, to be replaced with greater pain at a later date.

Good dads inherently understand that especially with sons, a little hurt goes a long way to building character, resolve, perseverance and fortitude. Without a little pain, we will never understand how tough we can be.

Yes society discourages boys from being boys. But fathers can encourage their boys to be boys, to learn the lessons of how to be a man. And while Dads cannot be with their sons at all times, they can do more in the time they have to be a strong, healthy, powerful influence, than society can do in the remaining waking hours.

It's a tough job. But it is what being a dad is all about.

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8:58 PM, April 13, 2009  
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2:45 AM, April 21, 2009  
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2:43 AM, June 08, 2009  

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