"From Hell and Back"
Congratulations to the Duke Lacrosse players--this travesty should never have happened--but it is gratifying to see these innocent young men set free today.
One thing I did find puzzling was the following statement by the North Carolina Attorney General Roy Cooper:
So if you charge someone with a false crime and "believe" your false statements to be true, you're off the hook?
One thing I did find puzzling was the following statement by the North Carolina Attorney General Roy Cooper:
However, Cooper said no charges will be brought against the accuser, saying she “may actually believe” the many different stories she told. “We believe it is in the best interest of justice not to bring charges,” he said.
So if you charge someone with a false crime and "believe" your false statements to be true, you're off the hook?
posted by Helen at 4:55 PM
41 Comments:
These people have truly gone to hell and back. Unbelieveable what they had to go through. False charges...how shameful!
Dr. Helen - if I may use crass language, charging the accuser with anything would be worse than futile, as she'd never see the inside of a courtroom.
Because she's batshit fucking loco.
About the best we could do is institutionalize her so she can't do the same thing to yet another group of three innocent men.
Too bad she doesn't have any assets or insurance, otherwise they could sue her. The only person that decides whether or not you sue someone is you.
And I think this is an abuse of prosecutorial discretion, I'm sure they prosecute people as crazy as her all the time.
Brian,
You're probably right and under the law, if she really believed that her stories were true, she cannot perjure herself but how did (or did they?) they determine she believed what she said to be true? Did they evaluate her or just take her word for it?
Helen- Don't you know a lawyer you could ask? Bob
I think Cooper's statement is a polite way of saying the accuser is pathetic, crazy, and relatively insignificant, and that prosecuting her would be another PR nightmare for the State of North Carolina.
For one thing, those university people who didn't see anything wrong with pursuing the lacrosse players like a lynch mob would probably get their nuts in a bunch about it. Wouldn't be surprised if Al Sharpton insinuated himself into the proceedings, too.
I feel sorry for the players, but I also don't blame the Atty. Gen. for wanting drop this business and get his office back to something like business as usual. There are other, worse bad guys that need prosecuting.
As for the accuser - I think her being her is punishment enough.
Dr. H - I don't think that anyone can determine what she really believes, or what she believed at the time.
And given that her story changed so many times, I don't think any jury would hold her to the "reasonable person" standard.
Basically, there's no way to prosecute her since there's no legal framework to judge her in. But IANAL, so I could be full of excrement and not even know it.
"So if you charge someone with a false crime and "believe" your false statements to be true, you're off the hook?"
I see where you're headed on this, Helen-- how much responsibility for their actions do we as a society want psychologically disturbed people to take? How we answer it has all sorts of implications, which I'm sure you know. But the fact is, this was a single judgement call made by Cooper on a single individual, not a broad statement of philosophy. Given everything else he's done today, I will trust him.
Forgot to ask - what are the chances that this woman will try bringing charges in civil court? Can she do that in this case?
What the AG's office is doing has nothing to do with the law. They can and do prosecute people as kooky as the false accuser all the time. They don't want to because it will mean more embarassment for the legal establishment in the state, another media circus, and will be unpopular in some circles - i.e. everyone that wanted to lynch the innocent lacrosse players.
But it would be the right thing to do. False accusations really need to be pursued, otherwise it is a very low-risk way to destroy someone's life. Especially when the false accuser is a woman and the accused is a male with all the bias and prejudice in the legal system. They should throw the book at her, and her sentence ought to be similar to what they were going to do to the innocent lacrosse players.
Helen,
Don't know how familiar you are with the case, but a few points to consider:
1. This isn't the first time the accuser has falsely cried rape. Also, she's falsely accused her ex-husband of trying to kill her.
2. She was largely aided and abetted by Durham Co. DA Mike Nifong. Nifong was appointed as interim DA by Gov. Mike Easley.
I think the last thing that Easley wants now is to have the Jesse and Al Show come back and demand the state do more for mentally ill strippers. I also think that he wants to quietly put Nifong out to pasture. Both good reasons to have Cooper not prosecute.
If I had my way, they'd throw the book at her.
Tarheel in Tucson
I think it's a mistake to let the accuser walk away after what she's done. It sends the wrong message to let an accuser wreak so much havoc and suffer no legal consequences.
However, the media reports suggest she was previously diagnosed as bipolar. That plus her self-destructive history would make a perjury prosecution very difficult. I wouldn't be surprised to learn she is currently receiving psychiatric care and that also played a role in the decision not to prosecute.
Wonder if the accused and their families are ever going to get all their money back. You know hundreds of thousands X 3 went down the legal drain over this.
I'd be looking for the meanest junk yard dog lawyer I could find. I know I could not survive that kind of financial outlay. I'd sue everything and everyone involved. And it's a long list.
OK, so she's a nut case. Who didn't see that forming up after about 3 days? As with a similar situation I was in at one time, what the hell is everyone else's excuse? Nail 'em.
I bet them Duke fellas sure will ask about the mental health history of the stripper next time they order em' up one for the next kegger!
And --I know from working with child abuse that the anonymity of the allegation reporter is protected so as to not deter someone from making allegations. MANY of our reports are knowingly false claims but we still have to pursue the investigation --because what if they ARE true. But those who make false claims are "off the hook" because we do not want to scare people so that they fail to report child abuse.
I know we all want to get that evil stripper but the child abuse analogy could apply, somewhat.
To me, the mentally unmanaged stripper did not instigate the law suit it was the lawyers. And frankly, it sounds like law enforcement dropped the ball too. Pretty standard law enforcement will tell you that when reported stories change they are likely to be false.
I have the privilege of having known Roy Cooper. We went to college at UNC, he was several years my senior, but we were in the same fraternity, and he had quite a reputation as a decent, kind, and intelligent man. A friend of mine in NC is one of his closest friends today. We have met on occasions. He is a good Christian man, a Democrat, and believes in the rule of law. I trust his decision.
Trey
Ha anyone heard from the other batshit insane accusers? I mean the ones on the Duke faculty.
I believe the reason that there will not be charges brought against the accuser is because she might be mentally unstable.
I don't blame this fiasco on the accuser as much as I blame Nifong, who should have recognized her instability and lack of veracity and then acted accordingly. Nifong should have never let things go this far.
As mentioned earlier, they prosecute mentally ill people all the time. She was going to send innocent people to prison for decades. Throw the book at her.
Now let's see if La Shawn Barber posts my comments asking why Mike Nifong shouldn't be comparably-to-Crystal-Gayle-Mangum-excused on the same grounds of patent psychological demangement (HT to the Firesign Theater).
Olig wrote: "You have described the greatest failing of the child protection racket; allowing false claims to go unpunished."
I agree with you 50%. It is one of the gretest failings. The other is when child protective services workers refuse to investigate a true case. I do not know which mistake is more common, and I have no idea when I report suspected abuse what will happen with the report. After 16 years in the business, I can find no pattern.
But I have seen the damage caused by false, knowingly false reports, and it is as bad as the abuse. It is a type of abuse in itself, and it damages the children and the falsley accused, sometimes for life.
Trey
MANY of our reports are knowingly false claims but we still have to pursue the investigation --because what if they ARE true. But those who make false claims are "off the hook" because we do not want to scare people so that they fail to report child abuse.
That is quite possibly the most lame excuse I have ever heard. False accusations ruin lives, and you are not only aiding and abetting it, but excusing it.
People like you make me sick, and the fact that you can sleep at night only speaks to your mendacity and total moral turpitude. It's no wonder people mock social workers.
false statements to polcie/grad jury perjury are both mens rea crimes.
you need to have intent.
there is no way you can have intent when your so insane that you dont relaize what you think happened is really quite literally a figmant of your imagination.
this is unlike other insainitly/not criminal responsible stuff..its not about whtehr you knew right from wrong or if you couldnt control yourself (typical insanity type questions)
with lying..if you think its true it CANT be a crime
Prison, institution - call it what you will, but once she's in, throw away the key.
Helen, how could you ask something so ridiculous:
"So if you charge someone with a false crime and "believe" your false statements to be true, you're off the hook?"
You know full well that there is no criminal intent in such a case. Her story must be both demonstrably false AND a conscious attempt to decieve officials for it to be criminal.
It's not enough to prove a crime to prove she was telling the truth to the best of her ability, but wrong.
What, pray tell, would it take to demonstrate she had intent to lie? She claimed to be RAPED, for pity's sake. What did she do - mistake someone telling their buddies to get them a beer for a sexual intrusion onto her?
And if Crystal Gail Magnum is that delusional, she needs to be locked up for her own good if not everyone else's. What is she going to do next? Mistake a visit from the Feller Brush Man with an armed invasion of Martians?
Give me a fracking break.
"I bet them Duke fellas sure will ask about the mental health history of the stripper next time they order em' up one for the next kegger!"
That would be a good start. Another good start would be if prosecutors applied the same standard.
You are quite right about the responsiblity to follow up on allegations regardless of the credibility of the complainant. In fact crazy, homeless types get attacked more often than anyone. But following up on a complaint does not have to include a series of news conferences, vicious mobs in front of the house calling for physical mutilation and all that.
The lying complainat is not the high pay-off target in this, nor is the sleazy ambulance-chasing DA. The real target is the Duke 88 and all the self-righteous demagogue preachers in the community. They should be hounded to destruction. Maybe some name-and-shame is in order. maybe blogger swill start posting these people's names on thier blogs. After all, they would have no basis for complaint - the decalaration they all signed was quite public.
this inmportant for the next time and the next time. These people are mostly academics, so they are used to having their pronouncements and posturings be meaningless and inconsequential. Well, this time was different, and they should pay.
So the question boils down to: Did she maliciously fabricate her story, or did she tell the truth to the best of her ability? The DA seems to believe the latter. Not knowing the woman, I can't really form an opinion about it.
Having said that, I think it would be reasonable for the victims to sue her as well as the people at the University who conspired to sacrifice them in the name of "larger issues." (That Nifong is in for it goes without saying.) Obviously, they wouldn't get much restitution from the accuser herself, but they might be able to clarify her actual mental condition. I'd be curious, but wouldn't obsess about it.
As a side issue: How is it that lacrosse players are allowed to have drunken parties with strippers? I'm not "blaming the victims" or anything - but back in the day this kind of behavior would have gotten you kicked off the team pretty quickly. At least the teams I was on.
The Duke fiasco has nothing to do with child abuse. I don't see where that fits in.
I'd like to see a formal apology written by 88 professors, quite a few newspapers, magazines, etc.
Having been falsely accused , and having it believed by authorities, even though I was not in the same state at the alledged time, I know what can happen financially, and to ones standing in his community. Doubt in others' eyes, etc. during the time the crap was flying. And there are people who choose to believe you did SOMETHING even after being exonerated, even after proving you weren't even there.
Innocent until proven guilty is no longer a guarantee in this country. Quite the opposite from where I sit.
Nifong deserves more than he will get, as do many others involved.
The professors still believe they were right. In their world, even if these specific "privileged white males" didn't commit this specific offense, they're still guilty of being who they are, the color they are, and of having well-to-do parents. Class guilt is more important to these people than personal guilt.
We shouldn't prosecute the accuser if she believes her claims, or even if there's reasonable doubt on that point. That means that there is no good way to discourge her from making other false accusations. Our only defense is to be more-than-usually skeptical of her claims in the future.
That's why it's pretty important that the accuser's name be published, even if it's hard on her. Otherwise, what defense do we have?
I'm local. The AG all but called her mentally ill and I too am given to understand she's bipolar and self destructive. I'll spare you all the documented history. This whole thing started when the police got ahold of her that night and she was acting so crazy that they took her to a mental health facility for a involuntary commit. That's when she cried rape.
This woman has three children (one a newborn conceived a month AFTER she claimed she was raped.) She's a danger to herself and those children. She really needs to be committed and those children should be sent to foster homes. Right now they have no chance.
The best thing that could have happened to that woman would have been to plead guilty to the false accusation charge in exchange for a sentence of "mental health facility." Because God knows, none of the people using her to further their agendas (Nifong, Group of 88, national media, Sharpton, et al) care enough to help her.
Does make you wonder what's going to happen to her. Will she end up on 60 Minutes or anything?
RE characterizing Crystal Gayle Mangum/Magnum — here deliberately and intentionally identified for the deliberate and intentional protective assistance of any others whom she might falsely accuse in the future — as a psychologically at-least-somewhat-excusable-victim-somehow:
But. . .then couldn’t, or more critically, shouldn’t, one also find comparably excusatory sympathy for Mike Nifong on the grounds of his similarly obvious mental health disability?
Or am I not properly understanding matters?
What if Nifong were to be characterized as similarly deranged in terms of his psychologically unhealthy need to maintain status through his position of power and authority?
Where exactly are we supposed to draw the line when it comes to cutting people slack on the grounds of their supposed psychological infirmities?
And on what grounds or principles, and why?
bill-
false statements to polcie/grad jury perjury are both mens rea crimes.
you need to have intent.
I don't buy it. The accusations were so extremely at odds with the physical evidence and chronology of that evening that there almost had to be an intent to deceive to some degree. She said she was beaten, choked, etc. and there were no injuries to back it up.
If she was that crazy to unintentionally misconstrue things to such an extreme she would be wandering around drooling, unable to dress and feed herself, let alone her kids.
What fits better is that she gets picked up by the police drunk and high and pissed off at the lacrosse players and she doesn't want to be involuntarily committed and have her kids taken away. So she comes up with a story that takes care of everything at once. (If the lacrosse players had been found guilty and the exculpatory evidence had stayed buried, she might have collected some money as well.)
And it doesn't seem like there was an investigation to look into whether there is any evidence that she had intent to deceive. So I still think the decision not to prosecute her is due to the political and bias factors mentioned above. It's the easy way out for many of the guilty parties in this case, and a very damaging false claimer goes unpunished.
I do not buy that she is so crazy she did not know what she was doing. You have to know what you are doing, to some extent, to strip for a living.
I think this was a money grab on her part, plain and simple. Or maybe she tried to turn a trick there and was turned down. Woman scorned.
But that does not mean that the DA could get a conviction.
Trey
As soon as she disappeared there, for that length of time, it became obvious something was up. And as I stated earlier, there are still people who think they did SOMETHING to the strippers that night. The other stripper has disappeared mysteriously, eh? Why? Because she did not support the allegations being made. I saw her being interviewed on television more than once.
The truth was the first casualty of this entire fiasco.
I think she cried assault and then Nifong ran with it for the free advertising (see Instapundit's link on 4/14 11:18) for his election.
I bet Cooper knows that she has a rock-solid defense claiming she was manipulated by the DA. It would just drag the state through the mud.
If any money is to be made, go after Nifong who betrayed the public trust, dealt a huge setback to race relations in Durham, and made it harder for anyone to come forward with the truth when a rape or crime actually happens.
That said, I bet the left embraces him as they did Rather et al for running with a story that could have been true.
mary ann said: "I think she cried assault and then Nifong ran with it for the free advertising (see Instapundit's link on 4/14 11:18) for his election."
Nifong link
視訊做愛視訊美女無碼A片情色影劇kyo成人動漫tt1069同志交友網ut同志交友網微風成人論壇6k聊天室日本 avdvd 介紹免費觀賞UT視訊美女交友..........................
Post a Comment
<< Home